Haha LL they were immature man-children, but they were to be raised by the most immature of them all Empy himself.

Beaviz81 wrote:Haha LL they were immature man-children, but they were to be raised by the most immature of them all Empy himself.

The God Emperor had deep seated entitlement issues.

I bet the reason that he was such a bad parent was because he was expecting identical copies of himself, ones that didn't need instruction or a proper unbringing, but the cloning process was flawed. Of course, the HH series has retconned this so that now the Emperor purposefully made them different, but I don't really like the HH series.

Heyh you are allowed to interpret the HH LL. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heyh you are allowed to interpret the HH LL. .

 LoneLictor wrote:

I bet the reason that he was such a bad parent was because he was expecting identical copies of himself, ones that didn't need instruction or a proper unbringing, but the cloning process was flawed. Of course, the HH series has retconned this so that now the Emperor purposefully made them different, but I don't really like the HH series.

Irony is, that I'm really hooked up on every book - but I really don't like them after raping the mythical status of heresy and making it super-powered soap opera....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

I bet the reason that he was such a bad parent was because he was expecting identical copies of himself, ones that didn't need instruction or a proper unbringing, but the cloning process was flawed. Of course, the HH series has retconned this so that now the Emperor purposefully made them different, but I don't really like the HH series.

Irony is, that I'm really hooked up on every book - but I really don't like them after raping the mythical status of heresy and making it super-powered soap opera....

I feel the same way. I keep buying books, and I keep going, "Ohhh...." in a kind of sad and broken voice. Like an eagle that don't fly no more, or a kid that learned he was adopted.

Ollanius Pius is a time traveling immortal. The God Emperor didn't want to be a God, and his name is just a whole big misunderstanding. Fulgrim strangled an Avatar to death, and was possessed by his own sword. Horus turned traitor because a daemon he knew was a liar told him that in 10,000 years, there wouldn't be a statue of him.

The thing is, a lot of it is well written, its just that stupid ideas keep getting dragged in.

Russ quoting the book of Lorgar, Magnus is still neutral, Perurabo is a nice guy, and Corax weeps really hard in one book....please continue....

DarthMarko wrote:Russ quoting the book of Lorgar, Magnus is still neutral, Perurabo is a nice guy, and Corax weeps really hard in one book....please continue....

I think I should quit while I'm ahead. I tend to get riled up when I talk about the HH series, and I get the feeling that the mods don't like me too much already.

 LoneLictor wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:Russ quoting the book of Lorgar, Magnus is still neutral, Perurabo is a nice guy, and Corax weeps really hard in one book....please continue....

I think I should quit while I'm ahead. I tend to get riled up when I talk about the HH series, and I get the feeling that the mods don't like me too much already.

Yeah me too, best to chill and go with the flow....

 LoneLictor wrote:
The God Emperor didn't want to be a God, and his name is just a whole big misunderstanding.

That has always been the case.

Fulgrim strangled an Avatar to death

So?

, and was possessed by his own sword.

Briefly, sure.

Horus turned traitor because a daemon he knew was a liar told him that in 10,000 years, there wouldn't be a statue of him.

I am moderately sure Erebus is not a Daemon, but yeah, Horus' fall was handled poorly.

All of the other stuff has been talked to death, and there's nothing really new to add, but I'm genuinely curious about this one.

Void__Dragon wrote:

LoneLictor wrote: The God Emperor didn't want to be a God, and his name is just a whole big misunderstanding.

That has always been the case.

You have a source?

"The progress of the Word Bearers was slow, but complete. None escaped the crozius or the bolter. Entire
worlds were scoured of the living for their refusal to submit to the will of the Emperor. When the Emperor
took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed
Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to reconquer
and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in
vast displays of fealty and piety."
- Index Astartes entry on the Word Bearers

It is also mentioned in "Realms of Chaos" from 2nd Ed where they give a rather long background to the Emperor.

Funny thing is there are a few passages where I suspect Lorgar may be a double traitor, after all the Liturgical texts that underpin the Imperium were written by him when he was still loyal, and that bit in one of the HH books when he asks the Demon "Show me what happens if we lose...." kind of make you wonder if he still wants dad to be a God......

It must be noted three full years passed between first report of Lorgar worshiping Empy and Empy reacting, so at least he considered it carefully.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"The progress of the Word Bearers was slow, but complete. None escaped the crozius or the bolter. Entire
worlds were scoured of the living for their refusal to submit to the will of the Emperor. When the Emperor
took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed
Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to reconquer
and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in
vast displays of fealty and piety."
- Index Astartes entry on the Word Bearers

I read that awhile ago, but I thought that was because the Emperor wanted worship to be left to the priests, and the Word Bearers were doing the wrong job. It was like if you hire a maid, but instead of cleaning your house, she builds cars for you.

The legion I hate the most is a tie between the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion.

Its hard because I hate them both for the same reasons.

I hate their combat style (stealth and terror tactics)
i hate their Fluff (Traitors that are really loyalist but are really traitors / terror is the only tactic that works ever)
I hate how people treat them like they are the greatest legions ever with the greatest Primarchs ever.


Primarch I hate the most
Guilliman. Everything about his Imperium Secondus and his Codex Astartes. I like the Ultramarines, I just hate him

 LoneLictor wrote:
I agree with Fotherington-Thomas. Most of them are sociopaths, and those that aren't are just living in denial. They butcher entire species and destroy entire worlds, and they're proud of it.

I like the cut of your jib.

Alpha Legion do annoy me, "WOOO! WOOO! WOOO! We're super secret spoooooooks and all your base are belong to uuuuusss!"

Your primarchs are runts. How's the gene seed?

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"The progress of the Word Bearers was slow, but complete. None escaped the crozius or the bolter. Entire
worlds were scoured of the living for their refusal to submit to the will of the Emperor. When the Emperor
took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed
Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to reconquer
and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in
vast displays of fealty and piety."
- Index Astartes entry on the Word Bearers

I read that awhile ago, but I thought that was because the Emperor wanted worship to be left to the priests, and the Word Bearers were doing the wrong job. It was like if you hire a maid, but instead of cleaning your house, she builds cars for you.

Hahaha. Build cars for you, brilliant analogy.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It must be noted three full years passed between first report of Lorgar worshiping Empy and Empy reacting, so at least he considered it carefully.

Where did you get this idea? In the First Heretic Lorgar complains to Magnus that the Emperor knew he worshiped him from the time they were first reunited?

JWhex wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It must be noted three full years passed between first report of Lorgar worshiping Empy and Empy reacting, so at least he considered it carefully.

Where did you get this idea? In the First Heretic Lorgar complains to Magnus that the Emperor knew he worshiped him from the time they were first reunited?

Which still points to what? That Empy took serious time to think if he wanted to be worshiped?

Night lords, they only usually pick fights with those who are weaker than them and from what I've heard shy away from fighting equals...cowards if you ask me.

Plus they have bat wings on their heads, that doesn't look cool or scary, it just looks stupid. I bet half the civilians they butchered died laughing at how ridiculous they look.

Bat-wings on their head, I remember that. I had that on my Lego figures.

your common Night Lord.

Dorn!

for his 'rational' behaviour.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Dorn!

for his 'rational' behaviour.

I don't see much that Dorn did wrong, except from suffering from survivor's guilt. I mean both daddy and favorite brother died while he was off on the other side of the ship due to teleportation mishaps, he really couldn't do that as as mighty Primarches are, they can't control physics.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Dorn!

for his 'rational' behaviour.

I don't see much that Dorn did wrong, except from suffering from survivor's guilt. I mean both daddy and favorite brother died while he was off on the other side of the ship due to teleportation mishaps, he really couldn't do that as as mighty Primarches are, they can't control physics.

This shows it better than what I'd just written

 Void__Dragon wrote:

See, but when Rogal Dorn does it, he tends to have something hilarious revealed about him. Like how he physically manhandled and tortured Garro. Or how when the Decree of Nikaea was passed, he locked all of his Librarians in a basement on the Phalanx (Seriously, even Angron was not so harsh on his Librarians). Or how, for a good chunk of The Lightning Tower, he seems to care more about the fact that he is making the Emperor's palace ugly than he does about the whole heresy deal. Then there is the stuff we already knew, like the Pain Glove, or being psychopathically driven to start a second civil war right after the Horus Heresy over a minor slight, or sacrificing hundreds of his warriors in the Iron Cage on an ego trip.

He's one of the most mentally off-balance Primarchs, and the best part is this portrayal is almost definitely unintentional.
[

Not sure how I underscored any points. Guilliman saved the IOM by fracturing the legions. There Dorn were in error as he weren't willing to believe in the worst case scenario Guilliman was preparing for. He even seem to have done a final act of defiance with the Black Templars. I try to offer a balanced view of the man.

The Iron Warriors and Imperial Fist seem to be the most entitled brats of the whole thing. Perturburo mad that he didn't get to construct the Emps fort ad Dorn believing he was superior because he did. Those are the ones I dislike, though probably the Wolves were most hated because they were the ones who were tasked with killing legions if necessary.

I find most of the loyalist primarchs pretty boring. Their stance in the heresy seems to be universally "Loyal to the Emprah! Because the Emprah!"
Whereas the chaos primarchs had character flaws and interesting positions as to why they turned from the Emperor. Even Angron (Who is often discredited as being one dimensional, and boring) has some real character development in 'Betrayer'. I felt for him, I understood his position and by the end of the novel he ended up being one of my favorite characters in the 40K universe.

 Hoernakex wrote:
I find most of the loyalist primarchs pretty boring. Their stance in the heresy seems to be universally "Loyal to the Emprah! Because the Emprah!"

Loyalty is considered to be a very high martial virtue in any civilized group that I have ever read about. Indeed it is even considered to be of more importance than courage. seems a strange criticism of the loyal primarchs to me.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Perturburo mad that he didn't get to construct the Emps fort

This isn't true.


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JWhex wrote:
Loyalty is considered to be a very high martial virtue in any civilized group that I have ever read about. Indeed it is even considered to be of more importance than courage. seems a strange criticism of the loyal primarchs to me.

Ask yourself this: Why does the Emperor deserve their unthinking obedience?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Perturburo mad that he didn't get to construct the Emps fort

This isn't true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWhex wrote:
Loyalty is considered to be a very high martial virtue in any civilized group that I have ever read about. Indeed it is even considered to be of more importance than courage. seems a strange criticism of the loyal primarchs to me.

Ask yourself this: Why does the Emperor deserve their unthinking obedience?

It is clear that some of the primarchs were also buying into the general idea of the imperium. Magnus was loyal to the emperor but he pulled the bone head move of the whole heresy and got himself excluded. Why not ask the same question (unthinking disobeiance) of the traitors, they did not exactly think things through, at least the ones capable of rational thought. Horus needed his mommas teat and was all bummed because the emperor didnt tell him everything he wanted to know.

None of the traitors really had a valid reason to become turncoats not only to the emperor, but to their brothers and even to the thousands of the troops they purged.

Your red-herring is very amusing yes, but you didn't actually address my question.

Why does the Emperor deserve their unthinking obedience?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Your red-herring is very amusing yes, but you didn't actually address my question.

Why does the Emperor deserve their unthinking obedience?

Well your statement is a bit of a strawman, actually. A better question would ask why did the Emperor deserve their obedience. However, the primarchs all swore to obey the emperor and joined his crusade which was a military organization. In a military organization you are required to follow the chain of command that is a basic precept. In a military organization you are expected to remain loyal and also expect to be executed if you turn traitor. For whatever reasons each primarch had for swearing loyalty to him, once they joined and swore oaths to him, and were given the responsibility and privilege to lead their legions then they had a strong ethical committment to obey him.

Its not like the primarchs for the most part were doing things like genocide that they had qualms about. It doesnt matter so much what their initial reasons for swearing obeidence was unless they were coerced and so far we have not seen that as part of the story. I guess Angron wasnt initially given a choice but he was a fething nut job anyway.

Honestly I dont think your question is all that interesting or that their is even a need to explain someones actions to remain loyal to their word of honor. Indeed the word traitor has such a stink about it that even in the poorly written 40k books it is something that the marines have to confront. I think a major flaw in the whole Heresy plot is how easily some of the primarchs turned traitor.

It's not really a strawman if you immediately use the logic introduced in the strawman to form the core of your argument.

"Why does the Emperor deserve their unthinking obedience?"

"That's a strawman. I never said that the Emperor deserves their unthinking obedience. However in the military you are expected to obey unthinkingly so when the primarchs swore allegiance to the Emperor they owed him their unthinking obedience."

Also, I would argue that from an ethical perspective, a soldier disobeying a direct order from a superior officer because it goes against his moral code is generally considered to be more "ethical" than performing an atrocious act or one he doesn't approve of, under the guise of "just following orders".

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Your red-herring is very amusing yes, but you didn't actually address my question.

Why does the Emperor deserve their unthinking obedience?

That is a very good question. Why does Empy deserve their unthinking obedience? He madeas many bad choices as he made good choices. With Angron he managed to leave him without his warriors. With Lorgar he demanded him to kneels before him and Guilliman and much else. Then again now unthinking obedience is the only way to survive in the crapsack universe.

His mistake with Angron and Lorgar was sentimentality, they should have been put down like II and XI.

That would be very bad bossy of him, don't you agree?

But it would get gak done. This is a guy trying to wrestle the entire human race (the biggest donkey-caves in the universe) out of the darkness, and to enable our survival in a dark galaxy despite our own best efforts to destroy ourselves.

Where is that "core of boundless ambition and violence" that Grammaticus sensed when it really counted? He gave into his human sentimentality, and it almost cost him everything. Just like Horus was brought down by vanity, another all too human failing.

If you're going to be an overlord, be an overlord, don't be a bitch about it.

Had he done that then, he might have had even the loyal sons revolting against him. Think Empy and Leman Russ vs the rest.