I was reading through Know No Fear, and I'm surprised to say, just how short Lorgar and his lads' devotion runs. I mean, they start boasting they're the most devoted Legion, and they just change suddenly-for the worst, IMO.
Coming back to the topic: I love the Thousand Sons, but tell you the truth, I have no love for Magnus, coz his pride damned a loyal legion.
I also don't like Lorgar, because 'Quoting Guilliman-he's a maggot, that should have been fed to Russ ', and the fact that he's a coward, and a brat who wants attention.
No, you clearly know that you are talking about him, but taking the field of battle to fight Corax yourself, knowing that you can't win, so that you might give your sons time to escape him is not the mark of a cowardly man.
Lorgar was presented as confused and physically weaker (due to his emphasis on intellectual undertakings) in First Heretic, but I advise you read Betrayer. He's a calculating mad schemer type who can take on Guilliman blow for blow.
There's a reason Lorgar's fall to Chaos was one of the more well-done falls in the HH series, because the fact that he had a vulnerable period of his life made it more believable that Chaos could consume him. Compare this to how Horus' fall is presented....
Iron Hands always bothered the crap out of me, 'we've been made into supermen, able to chew our way through steel bars, pull metal doors apart like tissue and do all this other crazy stuff like eat brains and pilot titans but for no good reason, we're going to get into chopping as many bits of our superamazing and scientifically advanced bodies apart so we can replace it with robotics'... The premise was always very daft to me 'the flesh is weak the machine is strong... even when the flesh is stronger than machines'...
And their boss was boring, well done Fulgrim for lopping his dullard head off.
Petur- Pertar- Purtura-, The iron warriors primarch, he is really well written but i hate his character. His only reason for going to chaos is being bitter about Dorn's (who obviously wasn't the best socialite) opinion on the palace of Terra. He even admits he is wrong but he thinks that changing his mind makes him weak and stays the course to chaos.
I liked the Space Wolves before starting in on the Horus Heresy series, but now I'd probably place them at or near the bottom of my most-liked legions list. It's partially that they get so much freaking screen time - I often suspect there's a contractual requirement to have a Space Wolf cameo once every two books - but the fact that they're written (by most) as essentially having the same personality and manner of speaking as archetypical fantasy dwarves annoys the hell out of me.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Iron Hands always bothered the crap out of me, 'we've been made into supermen, able to chew our way through steel bars, pull metal doors apart like tissue and do all this other crazy stuff like eat brains and pilot titans but for no good reason, we're going to get into chopping as many bits of our superamazing and scientifically advanced bodies apart so we can replace it with robotics'... The premise was always very daft to me 'the flesh is weak the machine is strong... even when the flesh is stronger than machines'...
And their boss was boring, well done Fulgrim for lopping his dullard head off.
Two reasons for the augmentations really, firstly trying to emulate their primarch who had metal hands, but following the HH, was when the augmentation really started to begin. Basically they perceive themselves and everyone as failures. They believe horus and the traitors were weak for betraying, their allies for not protecting the emperor and themselves for failing to do more to protect the emperor, kill traitors etc. The modification of their flesh to remove weaknesses is an extension of their mindset, they believe that to counter the horrors of the Universe they have to remove all humanity from themselves ready for the return of ferrus manus. Perosnally they're my favourite legion.
I hate Horus the most, his greed, bitterness and hubris doomed humanity, reading the forge world HH book currently, so loathing the traitors even more than usual! Although the Son's of Horus/Luna Wolves are cool. Least favourite legion are probably the Word Bearers, religion and faith have been the bane of humanity since time began.
Lorgar and his damned Word Bearers stand for everything i despise in humanity tbh.
They're manipulative, preaching, self-centered, religious donkey-caves. If Empy would just have killed Lorgar and exterminatused his entire planet when he found him everything would have worked out for the better.
Void__Dragon wrote: No, you clearly know that you are talking about him, but taking the field of battle to fight Corax yourself, knowing that you can't win, so that you might give your sons time to escape him is not the mark of a cowardly man.
Also don't forget him stepping between Russ and Magnus on Shrike (after he was warned that he will die that moment )I mean it took some balls to do that...
Also Malcador told
It never struck me as a very well thought out idea how the primarchs fell to Chaos. After having built so much and worked so hard towards a goal like human dominance, just to watch it burn, seemed like such an about face to me.
So, Lorgar and Perturabo. These two characters alone ruined the HH for me, but I suppose that's a nod to the writers in a way.
The Lion is perhaps the least likable of all the Primarchs. This in fact was his plot "flaw". He really did not understand other people whether they were humans or astartes, was a schemer that would make Tzeentch proud and not faithful to his friends. He trusted no one which also made him completely untrustworthy.
Angron really doesnt count because he was obviously, nearly completely insane. In any event the Emperor did not deserve any loyalty from Angron because he only treated him like a normal person would treat a hammer, as a tool to pound on stuff
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Iron Hands always bothered the crap out of me, 'we've been made into supermen, able to chew our way through steel bars, pull metal doors apart like tissue and do all this other crazy stuff like eat brains and pilot titans but for no good reason, we're going to get into chopping as many bits of our superamazing and scientifically advanced bodies apart so we can replace it with robotics'... The premise was always very daft to me 'the flesh is weak the machine is strong... even when the flesh is stronger than machines'...
And their boss was boring, well done Fulgrim for lopping his dullard head off.
Two reasons for the augmentations really, firstly trying to emulate their primarch who had metal hands, but following the HH, was when the augmentation really started to begin. Basically they perceive themselves and everyone as failures. They believe horus and the traitors were weak for betraying, their allies for not protecting the emperor and themselves for failing to do more to protect the emperor, kill traitors etc. The modification of their flesh to remove weaknesses is an extension of their mindset, they believe that to counter the horrors of the Universe they have to remove all humanity from themselves ready for the return of ferrus manus. Perosnally they're my favourite legion.
I hate Horus the most, his greed, bitterness and hubris doomed humanity, reading the forge world HH book currently, so loathing the traitors even more than usual! Although the Son's of Horus/Luna Wolves are cool. Least favourite legion are probably the Word Bearers, religion and faith have been the bane of humanity since time began.
Another reason for the Iron Hands' replacing their flesh as hinted in Wrath of Iron is that they start to itch after awhile and the only way to relive that itch is to replace themselves with augmetics..I think that's a pretty reasonable premise, I think it's mostly psychological and I believe that sort of phenomenon happens in real life...not so much cutting of ones own hand of course
as for me ...I'm not really fond of Space Wolves or Dark Angels
I like them all. Don't get me wrong, I think many of them have gotten short shrift in the quite uneven HH series but if they were more skillfully portrayed as the demi gods they are supposed to be than thy can't fail to be interesting and impressive. I guess I always imagine them in the most impressive light rather than the weak sketches they get in the books. Hours is probably the best example. Reading Alan Bligh, I get a sense of how Hours was nearly godlike in the flesh. That's a far cry from the douche who betrays the Emperor after a bad trip.
The Lions actually quite interesting if you think about it the fact he doesnt trust anyone makes him a bit of a wild card because you dont know what he could end up doing.Some kind of fight with Guilliman would be interesting, and the conflict he has going with the Night Lords is pretty cool.
Anyway of all the legions for me its the Space Wolves i dislike the most they seem to enjoy fighting other legions they are no better than the World Eaters (who i actually like) at least the WE have a reason to like fighting everyone the SW have none.
JWhex wrote: The Lion is perhaps the least likable of all the Primarchs. This in fact was his plot "flaw". He really did not understand other people whether they were humans or astartes, was a schemer that would make Tzeentch proud and not faithful to his friends. He trusted no one which also made him completely untrustworthy.
Seconded, I also dislike him and the DA, mostly, beacuse they are schemers and backstabers...
I mean half of the legion is loyal, half not ??? Lion, what a grumpy duchebag :-)
Second would be BA (I hate vamps), and their goody, goodison,made out of cardboard angel boy (with a dark flaw)....
JWhex wrote: The Lion is perhaps the least likable of all the Primarchs. This in fact was his plot "flaw". He really did not understand other people whether they were humans or astartes, was a schemer that would make Tzeentch proud and not faithful to his friends. He trusted no one which also made him completely untrustworthy.
Seconded, I also dislike him and the DA, mostly, beacuse they are schemers and backstabers...
I mean half of the legion is loyal, half not ??? Lion, what a grumpy duchebag :-)
Second would be BA (I hate vamps), and their goody, goodison,made out of cardboard angel boy (with a dark flaw)....
+1.....Lion and the DA for me too....
HH books do portray him as a backstaber and a genuine sociopath completely lacking of empaty....I would traded them for any chaos legion...
Whilst the two full-length novels did no favours for the Dark Angels and my opinion of The Lion, the subsequent short stories by two superior (IMHO) authors have really changed my opinion on the Lion.
He went from petulant and scheming, to utterly, unflinchingly loyal and pragmatic. He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.
In the space of a few short stories, I have developed a whole new respect and liking for the guy and look forward to reading more about him.
Garvy wrote:+1.....Lion and the DA for me too....
HH books do portray him as a backstaber and a genuine sociopath completely lacking of empaty....I would traded them for any chaos legion...
Sociopath is typically a term used for individuals with ASPD; which considering their creation and role as demigods of war, wouldn't be an unlikely characteristic to develop.
Just Dave wrote: He went from petulant and scheming, to utterly, unflinchingly loyal and pragmatic. He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.
Yeah it was real knightly of him to karate chop his chaplain's head off, and sadistically grin about it while doing it.
ADB's depiction of the Lion was IMHO terrible. He was boring. The knightly, honorable archetype is one already filled by a lot of the loyalist Primarchs, him being a petulant, scheming sociopath made him interesting.
Fortunately, Gav Thorpe went back to his portrayal in the two Dark Angels novels, where he's a paranoid sociopath, jumping to the conclusion that Roboute Guilliman plans to make himself autocrat of the Imperium, and he is every bit as jelly and petulant as he was before. Also, he has the new trait of being an arrogant internet tough guy. "Oh yeah, the reason Horus sent the Night Lords to come fight me is because he is too scared to take military action against me myself, yeah, that is definitely the reason. I am the first Primarch of the first Legion, therefore I am the best. Go me." Oh, and he implies he fully does intend to sit on the sidelines, waiting for the traitors and loyalists to bleed each other dry, in what he believes to be an attempt to stop Guilliman and Horus from seeing power. What you see as pragmatism, I see as the delusions of a paranoid, off-balance mind.
ADB is a better writer than the guys who wrote the DA books, but his depiction of the Lion was decidedly more boring and inferior, IMHO.
He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.
You mean after he had a tantrum when Curze told him about how the Angels would never be trusted(the truth).
The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch. His Legion is ok though.
ZSO, SAHAAL wrote: You mean after he had a tantrum when Curze told him about how the Angels would never be trusted(the truth).
The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch. His Legion is ok though.
Alpha Legion did not turn traitor because of Dorn.
Rogal Dorn is fething awesome. He's such a psychotic clown car of a man.
I believe their was some fluff about him insulting alpharius. I don't believe the Alpha Legion went traitor because of the Cabal, I think Alpharius wanted to be the Emperor instead of Horus.
I don't recall a temper tantrum at all. In-fact, I thought he stayed surprisingly cool-headed about Curze's words, particularly considering their prophetic nature.
Just Dave wrote: He went from petulant and scheming, to utterly, unflinchingly loyal and pragmatic. He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.
Yeah it was real knightly of him to karate chop his chaplain's head off, and sadistically grin about it while doing it.
ADB's depiction of the Lion was IMHO terrible. He was boring. The knightly, honorable archetype is one already filled by a lot of the loyalist Primarchs, him being a petulant, scheming sociopath made him interesting.
Fortunately, Gav Thorpe went back to his portrayal in the two Dark Angels novels, where he's a paranoid sociopath, jumping to the conclusion that Roboute Guilliman plans to make himself autocrat of the Imperium, and he is every bit as jelly and petulant as he was before. Also, he has the new trait of being an arrogant internet tough guy. "Oh yeah, the reason Horus sent the Night Lords to come fight me is because he is too scared to take military action against me myself, yeah, that is definitely the reason. I am the first Primarch of the first Legion, therefore I am the best. Go me." Oh, and he implies he fully does intend to sit on the sidelines, waiting for the traitors and loyalists to bleed each other dry, in what he believes to be an attempt to stop Guilliman and Horus from seeing power. What you see as pragmatism, I see as the delusions of a paranoid, off-balance mind.
ADB is a better writer than the guys who wrote the DA books, but his depiction of the Lion was decidedly more boring and inferior, IMHO.
He didn't sadistically grin whilst doing it: Corswain thought he saw a flash of enjoyment/thrill, then saw his pain and sorrow. And once more, I saw the karate-chopping as pragmatic, if really, really mean.
To be honest, I had forgotten about that bit - handy I have the book to hand though - but still, it doesn't make me like him less; it just adds another dimension, a darker side, and shows how close he could have been to falling, but still never did. AD-B tried to show the Lion as defined by his willpower and that's a portrayal I like; as I do his pragmatism.
He's not perfect, that's clear, and he's clearly got a sinister edge, but he's still utterly loyal to the Emperor and determined to try and do what's right, and that's what I like about him.
It's not like he was wrong about Guilliman, considering the Imperial Secondus/Unremembered Empire. His plan wasn't sitting on the sidelines either: by having Guilliman and Horus bleed one-another out, he would be attempting to secure the Emperor's rule. It wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines, so much as making sure the conflict never reached Terra or away from the sidelines.
And again, he wasn't sociopathic (or any more so than his brothers): the behaviours were more schizoid than anything, but once more, considering his upbringing, that's hardly surprising.
My personal dislike is for Lion El Johnson and the DA's, i just don't like there back story, the fact that they are based on freemasons, or the story about the "sucker punch".
ZSO, SAHAAL wrote: I believe their was some fluff about him insulting alpharius. I don't believe the Alpha Legion went traitor because of the Cabal, I think Alpharius wanted to be the Emperor instead of Horus.
I can't believe not a single vote for the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Interesting as I would have expected to see a lot of votes in that column considering the general dislike of the Ultramarines from most people.
My vote is somewhat split although I am more inclined to say that I dislike the Emperor's Children and Fulgrim. Mostly because that book was one of the hardest to read (Not because it was bad, but because it was so crushing to the spirit to read). They to me embody some of the worst aspects of Chaos in a way that makes me sour. After finishing Fulgrim I sold all my Chaos stuff, couldn't stand playing them anymore. That's the mark of a well written story if I can't stand playing Chaos anymore I suppose.
I like Dorn, he's one of my Favorite Primarchs. I think he has a fairly significant reason for disliking Sigismund, it's the principle of the matter really. No 'visions', or 'premonitions'.
Magnus is a very sad story, but I like him all the same. Who else faces off with a Phantom Titan and walks away clean?
Obviously Russ gets a nod. Very much wish to hear more about him in the future.
Don't know too much about the Night Haunter but he seems to have some interesting personality quirks.
Don't think we'll get to hear much more about Vulkan, which I suppose makes sense, but kind of a quick out for him yeah?
Matt1785 wrote: I can't believe not a single vote for the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Interesting as I would have expected to see a lot of votes in that column considering the general dislike of the Ultramarines from most people.
I can't speak for everyone, but Know No Fear evaporated any lingering dislike I had for the Ultras. Not that I ever hated them, but I also didn't much like them.
Matt1785 wrote: I can't believe not a single vote for the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Interesting as I would have expected to see a lot of votes in that column considering the general dislike of the Ultramarines from most people.
I can't speak for everyone, but Know No Fear evaporated any lingering dislike I had for the Ultras. Not that I ever hated them, but I also didn't much like them.
I'm not going to lie, with the last codex, my annoyance with the Ultramarines is at a high, but I hear nothing but good things about some of their Black Library portrayals. Gotta get around to reading them, though, before I talk any more than that.
He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.
You mean after he had a tantrum when Curze told him about how the Angels would never be trusted(the truth).
The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch. His Legion is ok though.
Can I ask where you what book thats from? Ive read or listened to a few different parts of the heresy series ,but haven't come across Dorn in any of the books I've read and I didn't realize he had a falling out with Sigsmund. I just figured they had to split bc of the post heresy chapter organization.
Matt1785 wrote: Don't think we'll get to hear much more about Vulkan, which I suppose makes sense, but kind of a quick out for him yeah?
Vulkan's got a novel coming up ('Vulkan Lives'; in which Curze also gets some coverage), a novella (sigh) and I expect will appear in 'Unremembered Empire'. He also has his first piece of artwork (see spoiler):
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: I really dislike World Eaters, because they and their Primarch are nothing more than simple butchers.
and i Dislike you. jokes seriously Angron (world eaters) is my favorite beside Mortation deathguard and konrad Curze of the nightlords (come to think of it i only like those that turned on the E-man)
Dorn of the Imperial Fist's (what they only have 2 fists, whats so special about that?, iron warriors should have been the ones protecting the E-man, not those yellow flower power hippies) is my least favorite, followed by those pesky white scars. i have no real reason to dislike the white scars but everyone was listing chapters that they didn't like. i jumped on board.
Well, Angron used to be my least favorite, then I read "Betrayer" and while I still don't like him very much I at least understand a lot more.
Then came Lorgar, but then I read "First Heretic" and, again, "Betrayer" and think that during the Heresy, he is awesome. Pre- and post-Heresy, he's still a little sissy.
Next came Perturabo, and after "Angel Exterminatus" he's one of my favorites. His characterization in that book was fantastic, and I can follow every step he took and why he took it.
It seems like the theme is BL takes the Primarchs I don't like and makes me appreciate them a lot more. They've characterized almost all of them a lot, although I still know next to nothing about the Khan.
As for the DA's, I agree in that them and the Lion are pretty unlikeable, but that was definitely done on purpose. They want us to see him as an outsider and a bit of a jerk so they can keep their whole "half loyal" thing going on.
I actually thought "Know No Fear" was a little dull. It was just sort of an ok book, which was surprising since I love Abnett. It didn't do anything for me though since there weren't really any characters I cared about in it.
I think the reason people aren't bagging out the Ultras so much is people hate GW representation of them far more than the actual fluff and Black library coverage. Most people find them a little boring, but not particularly unlikable. I think my least favorite Legion would be the Imperial Fists. I just don't like them, I think they are a bunch of grumps and I don't like their successors. Except maybe the Black Templars. I have to say that I am not really taking into account the White Scars or Iron Hands as there just isn't really enough material out there to explain them properly.
Well,..in the Codex the ultramarines are presented as the ultra good guys that can do nothing worng and are always in shining armour. Whil in their novels even some of them dont fully follow the codex astartes... space marine omnibus first novel,... first chapter... 3 transgressions against the codex astartes In the novels they are actualy quite the badasses!
I find Dorn (and Guilliman) to be the least interesting Primarchs really. They appear in just about every book in the same role, emotionlessly brooding about how the traitor Primarchs betrayed the Emperor and how they must protect the Imperium.
Matt1785 wrote: Don't think we'll get to hear much more about Vulkan, which I suppose makes sense, but kind of a quick out for him yeah?
Vulkan's got a novel coming up ('Vulkan Lives'; in which Curze also gets some coverage), a novella (sigh) and I expect will appear in 'Unremembered Empire'. He also has his first piece of artwork (see spoiler):
Spoiler:
I like what I see
Maybe they are running with the old Myth, of the immunity of real Salamanders to fire..
Looking forward to 'Hammertime' now. An angry Vulcan should get the chance to erupt ....
Because the deal the loyalists are getting in the series isn't a good one.
Harriticus wrote: I find Dorn (and Guilliman) to be the least interesting Primarchs really. They appear in just about every book in the same role, emotionlessly brooding about how the traitor Primarchs betrayed the Emperor and how they must protect the Imperium.
See, but when Rogal Dorn does it, he tends to have something hilarious revealed about him. Like how he physically manhandled and tortured Garro. Or how when the Decree of Nikaea was passed, he locked all of his Librarians in a basement on the Phalanx (Seriously, even Angron was not so harsh on his Librarians). Or how, for a good chunk of The Lightning Tower, he seems to care more about the fact that he is making the Emperor's palace ugly than he does about the whole heresy deal. Then there is the stuff we already knew, like the Pain Glove, or being psychopathically driven to start a second civil war right after the Horus Heresy over a minor slight, or sacrificing hundreds of his warriors in the Iron Cage on an ego trip.
He's one of the most mentally off-balance Primarchs, and the best part is this portrayal is almost definitely unintentional.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote: Because the deal the loyalists are getting in the series isn't a good one.
What makes you say that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: He didn't sadistically grin whilst doing it: Corswain thought he saw a flash of enjoyment/thrill, then saw his pain and sorrow. And once more, I saw the karate-chopping as pragmatic, if really, really mean.
"The seneschal was not entirely sure what happened next. The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing
lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in
the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet.
Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at
his handiwork. It passed in a second. The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother-
Redemptor."
Normal people don't have a moment of sadistic satisfaction after they murder one of their sons. I don't recall Magnus feeling satisfied with his butcher of Uthizzar.
Pragmatic? Sure, I guess in the same way stabbing your baby in the throat to get it to stop crying is. I mean, that certainly is the most guaranteed way to shut it up.
That it was pragmatic doesn't change the fact that it was sick.
To be honest, I had forgotten about that bit - handy I have the book to hand though - but still, it doesn't make me like him less; it just adds another dimension, a darker side, and shows how close he could have been to falling, but still never did. AD-B tried to show the Lion as defined by his willpower and that's a portrayal I like; as I do his pragmatism.
You seem to be under the impression that I have some desire for people to dislike the Lion. I'm not particularly sure why. I like the Lion, as portrayed in the two DA novels and Gav Thorpe's short story. I didn't much care for what ADB was trying to do with him, but that is just me. Also, to me, being paranoid and jumpy to the point of delusion does not to me speak of a man of particularly great willpower. It would have been pragmatic to believe he should take counter-measures to ensure one of his erstwhile "loyalist" brothers does not turn traitor. Guilliman did this, and managed to do so without looking paranoid or delusional. The Lion however seems to have already decided that Guilliman is planning to usurp the Emperor's rule. Also, he seems to be enthralled by the Watchers in the Dark, though admittedly, this may be a misinterpretation resulting from lack of knowledge on what the hell the Watchers in the Dark actually do or are.
He's not perfect, that's clear, and he's clearly got a sinister edge, but he's still utterly loyal to the Emperor and determined to try and do what's right, and that's what I like about him.
He is indeed loyal to the Emperor. And only the Emperor.
He does what he "believes" to be right, but as far-removed from others as he is, his sense of righteousness comes off as rather warped. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself, the Emperor, and maybe kinda/sorta his sons.
It's not like he was wrong about Guilliman, considering the Imperial Secondus/Unremembered Empire. His plan wasn't sitting on the sidelines either: by having Guilliman and Horus bleed one-another out, he would be attempting to secure the Emperor's rule. It wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines, so much as making sure the conflict never reached Terra or away from the sidelines.
So what do we even know about this Unremembered Empire? Honestly?
So what you're saying is, he would sit on the sidelines of the main conflict, letting them weaken eachother, while actively subverting both sides of the Heresy?
And again, he wasn't sociopathic (or any more so than his brothers): the behaviours were more schizoid than anything, but once more, considering his upbringing, that's hardly surprising.
Be it his upbringing or genetics, it doesn't change him being sort of a ruthless, sociopathic (Yes, more than many of his brothers, though schizoid is a better descriptor) jerkface, IMO. But that makes him far more likeable as a character than a bland uber loyalist knight in shining armour.
I cant believe everyone hates DA so much i thought the horus heresy books were good and enjoyed them especiall y Fallen Angels. I hope they get another book soon though its been a while.
Void__Dragon wrote: "The seneschal was not entirely sure what happened next. The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing
lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in
the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet.
Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at
his handiwork. It passed in a second. The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother-
Redemptor."
Normal people don't have a moment of sadistic satisfaction after they murder one of their sons. I don't recall Magnus feeling satisfied with his butcher of Uthizzar.
Pragmatic? Sure, I guess in the same way stabbing your baby in the throat to get it to stop crying is. I mean, that certainly is the most guaranteed way to shut it up.
That it was pragmatic doesn't change the fact that it was sick.
Yes, as I said; he didn't smile. I acknowledged that he showed a flash of enjoyment/satisfaction and then that it was replaced and sorrow: as the quote says. By stating he smiled, without acknowledging the pain, it didn't show both sides of the coin, which is a problem as people often read these threads without having read the books themselves (which was my concern), but obviously posting the quote solves that.
I don't feel the baby-comparison is quite appropriate (maybe even for the forum, never mind the context; although comparing Nemiel to a baby is an amusing idea!); I'd say it's more akin to an officer shooting a sergeant who disagrees within him?
As I said, it was pragmatic and brutal; as you basically agreed with yourself, so this particular part seems to be a moot discussion.
You seem to be under the impression that I have some desire for people to dislike the Lion. I'm not particularly sure why. I like the Lion, as portrayed in the two DA novels and Gav Thorpe's short story... Also, he seems to be enthralled by the Watchers in the Dark, though admittedly, this may be a misinterpretation resulting from lack of knowledge on what the hell the Watchers in the Dark actually do or are.
*re-jigged the quotes to condense the points*
I'm under no such impression (and I don't really see how my post suggests that, but hey). You seem to be misinterpreting me... Which has happened before.
As for the Watchers in the Dark; he doesn't at all seem in their thrall at the end of The Lion IMHO; he refuses to follow their ideas (to return to Caliban over visiting Guilliman) after all.
He is indeed loyal to the Emperor. And only the Emperor.
He does what he "believes" to be right, but as far-removed from others as he is, his sense of righteousness comes off as rather warped. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself, the Emperor, and maybe kinda/sorta his sons.
I don't disagree with this point, it's what makes him an interesting character IMHO. He seems to care for his sons, but it's the Emperor first and above all.
Also, to me, being paranoid and jumpy to the point of delusion does not to me speak of a man of particularly great willpower. It would have been pragmatic to believe he should take counter-measures to ensure one of his erstwhile "loyalist" brothers does not turn traitor. Guilliman did this, and managed to do so without looking paranoid or delusional. The Lion however seems to have already decided that Guilliman is planning to usurp the Emperor's rule
So what do we even know about this Unremembered Empire? Honestly?
We don't know much for sure; but I think we can pretty certain that...
... Guilliman is amassing forces away from Terra, seemingly under the impression that the Emperor is already dead (and therefore wants to make Sanguinius his heir). We've been told as much in a N&R thread, and all the signs seem to be supporting this: with Alexis Polux, Sanguinius, Lion (and the front cover) etc. Dan Abnett has also mentioned that their will be a big dozen-Primarchs brawl, suggesting even more will be there. If this turns out not to be the case, then I'll take this back, but there doesn't seem to be much to indicate otherwise.
So I feel it's understandable the Lion seems to think that Guilliman is planning to take over the Imperium or inherit the Emperor's rule, and that he wants to go over there to get Roboute back in the fight.
So what you're saying is, he would sit on the sidelines of the main conflict, letting them weaken eachother, while actively subverting both sides of the Heresy?
Kind of, yes; except that he would change the scope of the main conflict; rather than sit on the sidelines. Under Lion's plans, it seems he would have Guilliman and Horus bleed each other out, thereby preventing the Emperor's death and either one from taking power, as you said. But, i don't think it's so much as sitting on the sidelines, but rather bringing the conflict to the sidelines.
Be it his upbringing or genetics, it doesn't change him being sort of a ruthless, sociopathic (Yes, more than many of his brothers, though schizoid is a better descriptor) jerkface, IMO. But that makes him far more likeable as a character than a bland uber loyalist knight in shining armour.
Many Primarch's are sociopathic: it's due to who they are and how they were created and I can't begrudge them for it, nor would I imagine you'd be able to diagnose them for it. But I agree, it does make him far more likeable. I think it's kind of like the almost-awkwardness in the way he refers to his Legionnaires as "little brothers".
Sword Of Caliban wrote: I cant believe everyone hates DA so much i thought the horus heresy books were good and enjoyed them especiall y Fallen Angels. I hope they get another book soon though its been a while.
Guess the Dark Angels are just one of those hate em or love em kinda guys,.. nothing in between. Personaly i like them big time I am currently reading a Thousand sons,.. I realy like th book thus far,.. but i find Magnus rather lacking in the big awesome primarch role,.. but maybe that is yet to come... Im only in chater 5 atm...
Void__Dragon wrote: He's one of the most mentally off-balance Primarchs, and the best part is this portrayal is almost definitely unintentional.
I've been saying this for ages. It's nice that someone else finally noticed. People always think of Dorn as really responsible, just buying into the image that the text tries but fails to sell. Because what Dorn actually does is insane. I am waiting for someone writing for BL to notice this, too, hopefully before writing a book about Dorn's post-HH standoff against Guilliman.
The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch.
I really don't think Dorn can be blamed for Curze turning traitor. They had a disagreement on Curze's methods (which I'd imagine many Primarchs disapproved of) and Dorn confronted him about his vision of his death at the hands of the Emperor. Dorn didn't actually do anything to him. Curze turned traitor because he was insane and failed with ensuring his planet was law-abiding.
Peturabo changed for different reasons, but I really don't think that someone saying that they're better than you at something is a cause helping start a galaxy-wide civil war. I'd say Dorn get's away with that one too. It's not as if Horus didn't say similar things.
Personally, I like Lorgar and Fulgrim the least. Lorgar seems to be the only Primarch who turned traitor who actually knew what the consequences of Chaos were. Everyone else were deluded as to its horror but Lorgar embraced it. Fulgrim just because of how far he falls. He too embraces the horror of Chaos willingly, albeit he's led into it further before he actually sees what's going on. I like the honour-bound loyal Primarchs.
Perturabo went traitor because he was tired of his skills being under-appreciated or flat-out ignored. Angel Exterminatus made it very clear that despite his aptitude for tearing gak down, he was an artist and a scholar first and foremost. While he accepted his role as a warrior, he didn't enjoy destroying things, but rather loved to build- a talent that neither the Emperor nor his brothers cared to acknowledge. So when he went traitor it was less of an "Rawr I hate my father I hate the Imperium!" type of deal and more of a "I'm tired of being treated like gak" type of thing. In fact, when he joined the Rebellion he was actually under the impression that once they'd won, the Emperor would be allowed to surrender and the Galaxy could move on. He had no idea or intention of seeing the Emperor dead and the Imperium destroyed until Fulgrim told him later.
There was also an issue regarding him commiting Exterminatus on his home planet, and the guilt driving him to join Horus because he felt that he was the only one who could forgive him for his deed, but it was left deliberately vague, so I can't comment.
Ilove40k wrote: I just hate Russ even if I have a SW army the thing about: ``The sons of thunder are not psykers using the warp`` is just annoying !
I loved Leman Russ big time,.. but i am currently reading a thousand sons,.. and i just passed the part where Magnus and Leman Russ were at each others throats.
The fact that Leman Russ thinks lowly of psykers while he has them in his own army and like a naive little fool thinsk his psykers are not dangerous and Magnus's are because of a geneseed fault >.<
Also him blindly killing an entire world and losing knowledge in the process... something i expected of Angron,..not him...
But it's just my impression or oh so many people hate Russ 'cause he attacked Prospero?
Ok, it wasn't a kind act, sure, but he was simply executing orders.
Big E. said "Go and bring Magnus' ass on Terra", and during the journey he was manipulated by Horus who disguised as the EMPRAH and ordered him to destroy Prospero.
Ok.
Yes, I agree, it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but heck, it wasn't entirely Russ fault.
Like Magnus himself said, Russ didn't do it with joy, heck he hated it, but he was the Emperor's hound, fiercely loyal to the Gold Guy.
Magnus was, IMO, designed to be the most scholarly brother, always seeking to understand everything. Leman Russ was good for winning wars, but terrible for building and preserving.
In fact, as SW always say, they're the WEAPON of the Imperium, they're born (or, more precisely, created) for destroy the enemies of the Imperium, not for re-/building.
I don't follow. You want a quote from Magnus that the SW are ignorant? Sorry, I don't have one ready. I'm relying on his attitude toward Russ and the SW regarding psychic powers.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: Wait, keepin' alive tradition like Allfather and yadda yadda yadda is one thing, build or re-build a planet/system is another thing.
I think this pretty much Magnus's opinion, too. Again -- don't have a supporting quotation at the ready, however.
Manchu wrote: I don't follow. You want a quote from Magnus that the SW are ignorant? Sorry, I don't have one ready. I'm relying on his attitude toward Russ and the SW regarding psychic powers.
Magnus said Leman Russ is deluded if he believes his Rune Priests are special snowflakes who don't use the Warp to use their powers.
He's entirely correct.
That said, I do now recall a line from First Heretic where he did look disparagingly down on Leman Russ's culture, albeit I can't recall one from A Thousand Sons.
Manchu wrote: I think this pretty much Magnus's opinion, too. Again -- don't have a supporting quotation at the ready, however.
And Magnus was indeed right, the Space Wolves ARE barbarian and CAN'T build a system like, for example, Ultramar.
And that's fine, 'cause this make them what they are.
If all the Legions and Primarchs were like Magnus and the 1K Sons then we wouldn't have any Loyal Chapter left.
And, IMHO, Wolves are better this way.
I love the whole Vikings... IN SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEESS look and culture.
@V__D: I was more thinking, Magnus seems to think there is only one way to properly access the Warp -- the Librarius program he developed with Khan and Sanguinius as practiced by the Thousand Sons. Russ and the SW have a totally different view of the Warp and psychic powers. Magnus (and you) basically say they're just flat out wrong. I think this is also why you seem to interpret the Edict of Nikaea as banning Sm psykers, which it does not.
Manchu wrote: Magnus (and you) basically say they're just flat out wrong. I think this is also why you seem to interpret the Edict of Nikaea as banning Sm psykers, which it does not.
Well the Edict of Nikaea banned sorceries... so, yeah, psykers are not the same things... but it depends on how someone looks at it.
For Russ Psykers were nothing but Sorceres, so not much difference for him
amudkipz wrote: Petur- Pertar- Purtura-, The iron warriors primarch, he is really well written but i hate his character. His only reason for going to chaos is being bitter about Dorn's (who obviously wasn't the best socialite) opinion on the palace of Terra. He even admits he is wrong but he thinks that changing his mind makes him weak and stays the course to chaos.
Heh, he's my favourite because of just that. He made a decision and is sticking with it, regardless of the consequences. Also he beat the gak out of fulgrim, twice, and did the Joker's pencil trick.
If I had to name a worst and most hated.. Fulgrim and EC. I can't stand the guy, I fething hate Fabius Bile and the entire chapter seems to suffering from a mental condition that's censored on these boards. The only mildly interesting character in the EC is Lucius.
I was thinking about DA first, but actually, I don't hate them, I just think they are boring as gak.
Ilove40k wrote: I just hate Russ even if I have a SW army the thing about: ``The sons of thunder are not psykers using the warp`` is just annoying !
I loved Leman Russ big time,.. but i am currently reading a thousand sons,.. and i just passed the part where Magnus and Leman Russ were at each others throats.
The fact that Leman Russ thinks lowly of psykers while he has them in his own army and like a naive little fool thinsk his psykers are not dangerous and Magnus's are because of a geneseed fault >.<
Also him blindly killing an entire world and losing knowledge in the process... something i expected of Angron,..not him...
Old point in the relative context of the thread, but... Wait until you read Prospero Burns before you judge - or make your mind up about - Russ: the differing viewpoints is a great part of the dualogy.
Yup, a lot of people have come to dislike Leman Russ cause of the confrontation between him and Magnus. Poor Russ.
Anyway, I'm done with packing! Will be leaving now, wil be seeing all you guys on the month of June! I mistakenly wrote May :-(. Anyway, good luck to all you guys!
amudkipz wrote: Petur- Pertar- Purtura-, The iron warriors primarch, he is really well written but i hate his character. His only reason for going to chaos is being bitter about Dorn's (who obviously wasn't the best socialite) opinion on the palace of Terra. He even admits he is wrong but he thinks that changing his mind makes him weak and stays the course to chaos.
Heh, he's my favourite because of just that. He made a decision and is sticking with it, regardless of the consequences. Also he beat the gak out of fulgrim, twice, and did the Joker's pencil trick.
If I had to name a worst and most hated.. Fulgrim and EC. I can't stand the guy, I fething hate Fabius Bile and the entire chapter seems to suffering from a mental condition that's censored on these boards. The only mildly interesting character in the EC is Lucius.
I was thinking about DA first, but actually, I don't hate them, I just think they are boring as gak.
,
But if Fulgrim had his sword.....hmm.....But yes, "joker pencil" is a nice analogy +1
Manchu wrote: @V__D: I was more thinking, Magnus seems to think there is only one way to properly access the Warp -- the Librarius program he developed with Khan and Sanguinius as practiced by the Thousand Sons. Russ and the SW have a totally different view of the Warp and psychic powers. Magnus (and you) basically say they're just flat out wrong. I think this is also why you seem to interpret the Edict of Nikaea as banning Sm psykers, which it does not.
That's uh, not really true IMO, lol.
Magnus has no issue with the Rune Priests in of themselves, only the notion that they are fundamentally different than his Thousand Sons, when they do, in fact, draw on the same well of power.
Russ and the SW have a totally wrong view of the Warp, in that they don't believe it powers their abilities. Now, their practices using the Warp are safer than the Thousand Sons, largely due to forgoing Tutelaries, but they draw from the same well.
A lot of text goes into Thousand Sons believing that the Rune Priests and them are the same.
Ahriman: We are the same (To Othere Wyrdmake).
Now, the Thousand Sons aren't actually the same as the Rune Priests.
But the notion that they draw on the "natural life and death cycles of Fenris" isn't a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of the Space Wolves being plainly wrong, lol. Rune Priests use the Warp. This is a fact that can not be argued.
And doesn't it? The Emperor's reason for banning the Librarius department are to no longer allow the threat of sorcery to "taint" the Astartes, as per his words. Rune Priests can become sorcerers. To argue otherwise is fan spank. Now, you could argue that the Space Wolves did not do anything to justify the ban like Magnus did, and this is true. But it is also true that the other Librarians did nothing to justify it as well, yet they too were banned. That Magnus played a part in the creation of the department is frankly irrelevant, we don't see other Librarians making use of daemon familiars, or doing blood rites, because Magnus was kind of like a spoiled kid who doesn't want to share his neat toys. He kept what he viewed as the "better", more hipster training to his own Legion, thinking only they had the ability to put it into practice at the moment.
The Space Wolves exploited a loophole, even if they were not aware of it. They never had Librarians to disband, so they could keep their own psykers.
Oh, and I don't hate the Space Wolves, or their Primarch. I don't really have a hated Legion and Primarch.
There are a few I don't really [I[like[/I], such as Vulkan, the Khan, and their sons, but that is mostly because they have done nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: I've been saying this for ages. It's nice that someone else finally noticed. People always think of Dorn as really responsible, just buying into the image that the text tries but fails to sell. Because what Dorn actually does is insane. I am waiting for someone writing for BL to notice this, too, hopefully before writing a book about Dorn's post-HH standoff against Guilliman.
I actually missed this.
Yeah, Dorn is, when you think about it, the most subtly mentally ill and deranged Primarch. His reaction to things are often so extreme as to be insane, he reacts with a zeal that exceeds normal 40k levels to anything. Though, this is also a trait of the Black Templars, who are descended from Dorn. So, maybe this really is sort of intentional, lol.
strybjorn Grimskull wrote:My personal dislike is for Lion El Johnson and the DA's, i just don't like there back story, the fact that they are based on freemasons, or the story about the "sucker punch".
How are the DA based on masons? I always saw them as your bog standard knights of old.
Struggling with least favourite primarch here... I think I'd have to say angron; he's been so one dimensional for me. Yet to read betrayer though so this may change yet.
Void__Dragon wrote: But the notion that they draw on the "natural life and death cycles of Fenris" isn't a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of the Space Wolves being plainly wrong
They are correct in a sense. The turmoil of life on Fenris does roil the Warp, creating the context in which the SW rune priests developed their traditions. They are correct in a narrow, immediate, non-intellectual way. Magnus insists on things being correct in an abstract, universal, rational way. His perspective is very much like how most modern Westerners think about "truth" in the context of science. Ironically, Magnus's approach is superficially in line with the Emperor's public values -- whereas the "superstitious" views of the SW smack of the kind of values the Emperor publicly denounced. And yet it was Magnus's view that was deemed dangerous. There's a lot to explore there, concerning the Emperor's "private" viewpoints and plans -- all speculative of course.
And I think Magnus's involvement with the development of the Labarius is anything but irrelevant. Even if the others weren't attaining the same heights as the TS, Magnus would have contributed to the program a value system that holds attaining such heights as desirable. Even down to M41/42, the most powerful SM psyker after Ahriman himself is Mephiston. Just a point to reflect on, not definite proof of anything. It could be that the BA preserved the subtle contributions of Magnus. In that same vein, an UM is the next most powerful SM psyker after Mephiston in M41/42 -- and of course it is Guilliman who privately criticized Nikaea -- and reinstated the Librarius (who knows to what degree modified) to the post-HH standard SM formation.
Void__Dragon wrote: Though, this is also a trait of the Black Templars, who are descended from Dorn. So, maybe this really is sort of intentional, lol.
^ Also don't forget canix helix...which effectively stops chaos corruption...or turns them into beasts....So way of Fenris can really make sense if you stop mocking and think about it....
Primarch: Russ, ignorant barbarian, hypocrite in the extreme. Loyalty being the only good trait he inherited from dogs.
Legion: Wolves probably, mainly because of the rabid (no pun intended) fanboyism that IMO would make the most hardened Ultra'smurf' fan blush. Them or the Word Bearers, how many times can one really say 'it is written' before the already weak catchphrase becomes completely cringeworthy?
Most hated Chaos Legion would have to be the World Eaters simply because they're dimwitted idiots that splintered into warbands. I also don't really care for Lorgar.
What a lot of people seem to intentionally overlook or just do not want to admit is that on the way to Prospero, Leman Russ sent a message to Magnus telling him to evacuate his cities and surrender himself and his legion to the Space Wolves in space so the people of Prospero would be spared.
I like both the characterization of Magnus and what little we actually learn about Leman Russ in Prospero Burns. The SW did not enjoy or relish their mission to sanction the TS.
Magnus on the other hand did completely understand the damage he caused when he sent his warning to the emperor but wasnt strong enough to own up to his crimes.
A lot of people posting on this thread and others seem to not really understand what was laid out in the two books about the difference between Rune Priests and TS sorcerors. The rune priests absolutely knew they were tapping into the warp but they were terribly frightened of it and recognized that they had to severely limit what they could do. The TS sorcerors however felt like there was no limit to what they could master and this of course led to their downfall.
The emperor of course must have known what the rune priests were up to and it is telling that he judged their activities as worth whatever risk was involved. Apparently the emperor thought that the methods used by the rune priests because of their more indirect approach of tapping the warp were safer than the no holds barred approach by Magnus and the legions' librarian corps.
The emperor could have banned the rune priests but he didnt. So it is not really accurate to say the rune priests were acting hypocritically because from their perspective they were using a different approach and had the tacit approval of the emperor wheras the librarians and Magnus were explicitly told to stop their psychic research and activities.
The legions were a military organization with the emperor at the apex. Hypocrisy doesnt enter into it. All of the marines and primarchs had sworn numerous oaths of loyalty to the emperor, they were required to obey or be branded criminals. Despite their other admirable qualities, Magnus and his sons were criminals and they knew they were in defiance of the Decree of Nikea.
It is clear from Prospero Burns that the SW did not especially enjoy their role in the big scheme of things. Aside from the sanctioning of the TS it is mentioned that they also had the role of doing many of the dirty jobs that the other legions would or could not do. I believe in "The First Heretic" it was revealed that Russ spoke on behalf of Lorgar at the beginning because he did not want to have to sanction another of his brothers (missing 2 legions) The SW wanted to be with emperor and other legions in the Ullanor system but they were off doing the dirtier work of the crusade elsewhere on orders of the emperor.
However, rather than being a mob of undisciplined barbarians, the Space Wolves are revealed to be one of the most highly disciplined legions because they are capable of carrying out missions for the emperor that other legions are not up to the task of.
JWhex wrote: The emperor could have banned the rune priests but he didnt.
Well, that (the Custodes didn't seem to mind, afterall) or they disobeyed Nikaea, it's a hot topic...
I believe in "The First Heretic" it was revealed that Russ spoke on behalf of Lorgar at the beginning because he did not want to have to sanction another of his brothers (missing 2 legions)
Well, the idea of the Space Wolves sanctioning a missing Legion(s) is now thrown into even further doubt/question, as they instead were sent to somewhat-sanction another Legion (revealed in Betrayer; not actually read it myself, just revealed through spoilers), also linking to Russ' comment about Legion's fighting at the end of Prospero Burns.
However, rather than being a mob of undisciplined barbarians, the Space Wolves are revealed to be one of the most highly disciplined legions because they are capable of carrying out missions for the emperor that other legions are not up to the task of.
Them as the executioners/doers of the dirty work isn't necessarily true; it could be a self-appointed role, rather than actually the truth. Many others suggest it's their role, but an author has said otherwise, so like many things from the heresy series, it's open to interpretation and discussion.
Good post though; I agree with much of what you said - you didn't seem to have any overt Space Wolf or Thousand Son preference.
I have a hard time choosing favorites since all the legions are pieces of a larger puzzle that make up the whole of the story. I truly like the story, and while I may dislike small portions of it, I think that it would do it a discredit to say that any one part of it is "bad".
That being said, some legions have a certain quality to them that makes them more difficult to write about, or perhaps more difficult to relate to.
The Thousand Sons are probably my least favorite legion, but in a backwards way because there are things that I truly like about them. But they are are sort of a hallow legion and not very characterful. Nearly the entire backstory of their legion is reduced to Magnus and Ahriman, who are fine characters in their own right, but they are not sufficient to replace a whole legion of optional characters that could/should have unique stories of their own. I find this damaging to the legion and it makes me loose interest.
Also, it is my opinion that Tzeentch is a very poorly conceived entity in the background. Sort of a case of "biting of more than you can chew" in a literary sense. When writing, it is possible to communicate in words that a person may feel a certain emotion or experience certain events. Obviously some writers are more gifted than others and can tell a "better" story, but some topics make fore more difficult writing.
Even in fantasy, or in this case "sci-fantasy"... the concept of fate and destiny, magic, sorcery, and "infinite" knowledge are tough issues to tackle, regardless of a persons skill as a writer. It is quite tricky to create a being who "knows everything that was and will ever be" without encountering the superman dilemma. I could elaborate more but rather than derail the thread I'll just leave it here and say that Tzeentch as a character represents a poorly conceived sort of plot device to me that has always been the weakest part of the overall plot. Magnus / Ahriman and the Thousand Sons bear such a close relation to Tzeentch, and are tied to him in such a way that they leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I also have a strong dislike for the Ultramarines since I find them to be (recently) damaging to the game at large in the way they have altered the image of Space Marines who had previously been a gothic cult of warrior monks who had nearly "lost" their own humanity to safeguard the Imperium. The Ultramarines and their rigid, roman-esque militant foolery have reduced the image of Space Marines... they are now just jardheads with fancy armor no more reason to exist other than being an elite Imperial Guard unit.
The Word Bearers are a unique (and necessary) chapter since they are the starting point of the Heresy. And while I am a strongly Christian person IRL, their abuse of religion for a dark cause resonates with me internally, and I quite like that. I find their chapter to be analogous with the current state of religion in the real world, which is both frightening and of particular interest. For that reason, I both love and hate them. They are quite fun and characterful.
Aaaaaaand the Space Wolves... what to say. Better them than the Ultramarines? I have not particular interest in them, and they are a little eccentric, but they don't do any real damage to the hobby as a whole that I can see.
If it matters to anyone, it may help explain (or perhaps highlight) why I have the above opinions if I were to share my favorite legions.
I like the Dark Angels. Their chapter history is like the short version of the whole Horus Heresy, without all the existential stuff the BL authors did to it, which IMO keeps its simpler and more appealing. They also seem to be the chapter most like their first edition counterparts... gothic, grimdark, monks... other than perhaps the Black Templars, who are also quite awesome.
I like the Imperial Fists, who I think would make a better poster-chapter than the Ultramarines for their loyalty, nobility, and that they, above all chapters, truly represent the DEFENCE of humanity.
Sorry for the long post, didn't mean to ramble, kudos on the cool thread... maybe add a poll?
I have a love hate relationship with the nightlords,I love terror tactics and psycho warfare, but were on opposite sides and they don't embrace the flip side of terror.
I do not understand why people dislike the Ultramarines. Its almost as if it is some forum badge of honor to rag on the Ultramarines. I dont play them, the marine factions I have painted are BA, SW and DA, so I really dont have a dog in the fight so to speak.
Making a Romanesque chapter is a perfectly reasonable thing to have done when designing the chapters, it would practically have been an oversight not to given the importance of Roman culture to western civilization. Also, there needs to be a baseline chapter for comparison and the Ultramarines are a sensible choice for that role.
Lorgar doubted the Emperor and got told off like a little kid by him in Fall to Chaos in the HH series. In front of Guilliman too...
This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...
TechmarineNic wrote: This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...
I don't agree at all that Lorgar was one of the less intelligent Primarchs -- but to say one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus is especially wrong. Or at least I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word "intelligence."
TechmarineNic wrote: This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...
I don't agree at all that Lorgar was one of the less intelligent Primarchs -- but to say one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus is especially wrong. Or at least I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word "intelligence."
Maybe he thinks they are the two that made the worst slip-ups?
Yeah,,, while I am not a fan of Magnus, I gotta back Manchu on this one.
I think Mangus was unwise, but unintelligent is a different story.
I think of intelligence as being a person's capacity to learn, absorb information, and retain facts. That being said, I would bet that Magnus is the kind of person who, if given a complex mathematical equation, would give you an answer before you got the question out.
But wisdom...wisdom is known when and how to use the knowledge that a person has. You cannot be wise without also being intelligent, but the reverse it not true. You can be quite intelligent without possessing any wisdom at all.
Magnus strikes me as the kind of fellow who, for all his intelligence can give you the "correct" answer, but seldom the "right" one.
I used to think much the same about him but I am beginning to think that Magnus was as wise as certain disabilities allowed. That is to say, his lack of wisdom really boils down to one very unwise decision -- namely, to bargain with Tzeentch. What makes hims so interesting to me is that this un-wisdom grew out of both sincere compassion and well-founded arrogance. But it did not grow out of stupidity.
Got to be Dorn, for the reasons stated previously. He is an insane masochist with many very serious personality issues - none of them very interesting or well fleshed out in the fluff, yet.
Hopefully BL picks up on the potential and continues to tell his story of madness, but for now he is my least favorite.
Unless I'm reading the Dornian Heresy over on B&C in which case I think he's incredibly interesting. Actually now that I think about it, Dorn's fall into heresy as described in the fan fiction is much more feasible and better explained than what BL has done with Horus thus far.
I was never a fan of Russ or Magnus during the Bill King era, but with the HH I found them to both become much deeper characters, and that I could relate to each of their struggles.
It wasn't, but it wasn't entirely unjustified either: Dorn was already angry with Curze, and we know how loyal he is to the Emperor (and his opinion on psychics). Just flicking through the Lightning Tower, it didn't seem hugely unbalanced IMHO: seemed more like wrathful accusations and anger.
I'm not refuting what you're saying; as I said, I knew Dorn was a bit 'unhinged', but I never noticed him as 'crazy'.
Just Dave wrote:Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.
The confrontation with Sigismund, but for me it's mostly the "pain glove." That type of masochism speaks to me of a very deranged and guilty mind.
Just Dave wrote: I knew Dorn was a bit 'unhinged', but I never noticed him as 'crazy'.
Sure, I don't think he really snaps until daddy's dying on the deck. But going after Curze like that was asinine. I know Dorn is smarter than that. I don't know if he's saner than that.
Just Dave wrote: I knew Dorn was a bit 'unhinged', but I never noticed him as 'crazy'.
Sure, I don't think he really snaps until daddy's dying on the deck.
You have such a way with words, Manchu.
going after Curze like that was asinine. I know Dorn is smarter than that. I don't know if he's saner than that.
Asinine in that he should've know what Curze - of all people - was capable of? Somewhat, yeah, I agree. Fits with Dorn's known stoicism and demeanour though. It reminds me of the phrase about the thin line between bravery and stupidy, and personally, I think it's more the former.
Lint wrote:The confrontation with Sigismund, but for me it's mostly the "pain glove." That type of masochism speaks to me of a very deranged and guilty mind.
I'll have to read the confrontation again, but again - although I disagreed with Dorn - I didn't remember him being particularly insane there either. He was stable enough to keep Sigismund as 1st Captain at least.
I agree about the pain glove though, yes, but people were referring to the HH series. I didn't think it portrayed him as particularly crazy, but does fit/foreshadow with the pain glove masochism.
I don't think it's quite fair to judge Dorn by the "effectiveness" of his actions. In the wake of an event as ... far reaching ... as the HH, it's hard to imagine that any actions would have truly resolved much. While the Imperium at large was reeling from a civil war, the core of the issue was still a blood feud between brothers. Emotions most certainly ran high and its reasonable within that context to accept Dorn's behavior as less than rational without making the leap to "insane".
Mind you, I'm not defending him. I think the writers did a poor job overall because they built him up to be a very heroic figure, towering over the defense of Terra, and being iconic in the way that he was, and then being unable to write him out in a suitable fashion. That's a hard thing to keep a place for when they also wanted that role to go to Roboute. If you look at the story, Dorn is a different person afer the HH. IMO not because of anything in universe... it's almost as if he was written by two separate writers. One who wanted him to be the hero, and another who did not.
MarsNZ wrote: Primarch: Russ, ignorant barbarian, hypocrite in the extreme. Loyalty being the only good trait he inherited from dogs.
Legion: Wolves probably, mainly because of the rabid (no pun intended) fanboyism that IMO would make the most hardened Ultra'smurf' fan blush. Them or the Word Bearers, how many times can one really say 'it is written' before the already weak catchphrase becomes completely cringeworthy?
Uhm... nope? In this thread I see a bunch o' people who just hate Wolves 'cause they have a loyal fanbase (fanboyism in completely another thing). Barbarian? Yes, but I think 50-50%. Yes, they're more wild or just more rough, but barbarian... no. They don't build nothin' 'cause it's not their style, and at the beginnin' it wasn't the style of any Legion. The Imperial Army (later divided in Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy) built up during the Great Crusade.
Russ ignorant? Mhmh... no? He wasn't smart like Magnus, but he wasn't stupid like Angron neither. And Angron is not so brainless as most of people think. He was only too focused on bloodshed. Hypocrite? No, again. The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer. And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS. And yes, he's probably the most loyal Primarch along with Sanguinius and Dorn.
En Excelsis wrote: I don't think it's quite fair to judge Dorn by the "effectiveness" of his actions.
I don't mean to judge him by what resulted but by what a reasonable person could have foreseen not resulting. Going after Curze like that could not have resulted in anything good. But Dorn can't let anyone think badly of daddy now can he?
En Excelsis wrote: I don't think it's quite fair to judge Dorn by the "effectiveness" of his actions.
I don't mean to judge him by what resulted but by what a reasonable person could have foreseen not resulting. Going after Curze like that could not have resulted in anything good. But Dorn can't let anyone think badly of daddy now can he?
I'm not trying to convince you to like the guy. Hell I am not even sure I like him. I just have a kind of sympathy for him since I feel like he was meta-abused by the writers. I love the IF. they are a great legion with lots of fun characters and they have given us some of the most flavorful successor chapters (Black Templars, Crimson Fists). They are quite cool. It's a crying shame that a character as bright, noble, and loyal as Dorn should be written out in the manner that he was.
Mind you, I am not attempting to build a case for him not being written out... just that it could have been done better, or at least in a way that did polarize him the way it did.
I don't think the trouble is that Dorn has been written exceptionally badly. Dorn was portrayed as having stark psychological issues before the HH series started.
Manchu wrote: I don't think the trouble is that Dorn has been written exceptionally badly. Dorn was portrayed as having stark psychological issues before the HH series started.
I guess it must have been in IA that I first read the Pain Glove and the Iron Cage incident. I don't know if they are from something earlier. But IA was published before the HH series got underway so when it came time to present Dorn in the novels there was already some precedent for him being off his rocker for them to build towards.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, just noticed IA in our glossary reads Imperial Amour. I meant Index Astartes.
Manchu wrote: I guess it must have been in IA that I first read the Pain Glove and the Iron Cage incident. I don't know if they are from something earlier. But IA was published before the HH series got underway so when it came time to present Dorn in the novels there was already some precedent for him being off his rocker for them to build towards.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, just noticed IA in our glossary reads Imperial Amour. I meant Index Astartes.
Just Dave wrote: Asinine in that he should've know what Curze - of all people - was capable of?
Asinine in that it would not solve anything. Just like, on a larger scale, his ridiculous and suicidal action against the IW would not solve anything.
Ah OK. Again, I agree and disagree, personally. I think his actions are fairly understandable considering the context and his general personality as I said before. Curze had just been slaughtering prisoners against Dorn's orders and principles, then there was obviously the content of his visions and the Night Lords already tenuous reputation. I think, all things considered and particularly in light of his personality, that Dorn's reaction wasnt that stupid, and that many Primarch's would've reacted the same.
Admittedly, we don't know much about how Dorn confronted him either, other than that it was angrily.
Real craziness can be explained but not explained away. So for example I get why Dorn put himself and the IF in the Iron Cage after the HH -- because he was a loony -- but also because of his grief and anger and guilt. Same thing here, just not turned up to 11 yet because the Emperor had not been laid low.
Also, I just re-read the passage where Sigismund confesses to Dorn (I'm liking John French), and again, he didn't seem crazy to me.
It made me like him even more to be honest. He's so stoic and loyal to the Emperor, standing in a difficult position but determined not to break, even if he wavers. Sigismund disobeyed him, and Horus disobeyed the Emperor; he went against the absolute unity and loyalty Dorn desired at all times, but then above all, and so it was all the harder for him. But he still, barely, remained calm, and will as ever, continue with his duty.
Also, Sigismund is going to be a real bad-ass when Horus hits Terra.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer.
The Space Wolves do, in fact, use the Warp like Librarians do.
And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.
The Wolves are not immune to corruption. They are not Grey Knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.
He forces his Librarians to sit around in a basement for years on end with no outside contact. Not even Angron was so brutal toward his Librarians.
His biggest issue in The Lightning Tower seems to be that he is making the Imperial Palace ugly. A magos is even like "R you srs...?" when Dorn complains to him about that.
And I just found out Roger Ebert is dead so I've lost my previous train of thought and will have to get back to you on the rest of this.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer.
The Space Wolves do, in fact, use the Warp like Librarians do.
And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.
The Wolves are not immune to corruption. They are not Grey Knights.
.
NO and NO - did you freaking read Wolfs honor? I guess not because you hate SW novels....
They can go traitor, they can backstab you or go Wulfen - but chaos corruption is something which canix helix effectively stops...and this is like canon.....
Also you need to read about 13 Co and Bran Redmaw Co (who are on borderline to chaos and are pretty much all Wulfen)..
And even WHEN THEY BECOME WULFEN THEY STILL KICK AND RIP CHAOS ARSES....
Also if you don't belive the wolves - check what your idol Magnus said about them in my sig....
Also if you can provide a source which tells that RP and Librarians are the same (except their opinions) and that they use the warp in the same way ?
MarsNZ wrote: Primarch: Russ, ignorant barbarian, hypocrite in the extreme. Loyalty being the only good trait he inherited from dogs.
Legion: Wolves probably, mainly because of the rabid (no pun intended) fanboyism that IMO would make the most hardened Ultra'smurf' fan blush. Them or the Word Bearers, how many times can one really say 'it is written' before the already weak catchphrase becomes completely cringeworthy?
Uhm... nope?
In this thread I see a bunch o' people who just hate Wolves 'cause they have a loyal fanbase (fanboyism in completely another thing).
Barbarian? Yes, but I think 50-50%. Yes, they're more wild or just more rough, but barbarian... no.
They don't build nothin' 'cause it's not their style, and at the beginnin' it wasn't the style of any Legion.
The Imperial Army (later divided in Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy) built up during the Great Crusade.
Russ ignorant? Mhmh... no? He wasn't smart like Magnus, but he wasn't stupid like Angron neither. And Angron is not so brailess as most of people think. He was only too focused on bloodshed.
Hypocrite? No, again. The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer. And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.
And yes, he's probably the most loyal Primarch along with Sanguinius and Dorn.
So much hate for Russ and the Wolves.
Actually if you go to the thread you ll see that there are just few well known haters who are constantly degrading themselves, and their only contribution to threads is mostly spawning petty hate...But there are always five times more positive comments....So don't worry, be happy....
DarthMarko wrote: NO and NO - did you freaking read Wolfs honor? I guess not because you hate SW novels....
They can go traitor, they can backstab you or go Wulfen - but chaos corruption is something which canix helix effectively stops...and this is like canon.....
Also you need to read about 13 Co and Bran Redmaw Co (who are on borderline to chaos and are pretty much all Wulfen)..
Also if you can provide a source which tells that RP and Librarians are the same (except their opinions) and that they use the warp in the same way ?
Hurrrr.
"While Rune Priests use their own powers and train in their own way, they function in much the same way as other Space Marine Librarians, tapping into the Warp and drawing forth power to create effects and shape reality."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 184
And before you jump onto the book's usage of "other" Space Marine Librarians, it was a slight error, the book acknowledges but a few lines before that the Space Wolves do not operate under the Librarius Department.
Page 5 of Grey Knights codex. States that the Grey Knights are the only force in the entire Imperium incapable of being corrupted.
The Space wolves can clearly be corrupted, considering the fact that they believe the use of sorcery has the potential to do so. Compare Grey Knights, who can use sorcery with no threat of corruption (At least, not yet).
Tell me, when hit by a Bolt of Change, what do you believe happens to the Space Wolves?
Oh, and I clearly don't hate novels with SW, considering I read Prospero Burns. I'm just not really a Bill King fan.
Cite the novel in question.
Actually if you go to the thread you ll see that there are just few well known haters who are constantly degrading themselves, and their only contribution to threads is mostly spawning petty hate...But there are always five times more positive comments....So don't worry, be happy....
I'm not a hater. It is so surreal for you to label me a fanboy of the Thousand Sons and a hater of the Space Wolves, when, between the two of us, I can actually admit my favorite Legion and Primarch has faults (Though IMO the brunt of the blame for the TS's downfall rests on Magnus's shoulders, not his sons).
You seriously believe that the Space Wolves are entirely immune to corruption. Seriously? Like, for real? And you have the audacity to talk trash to others about their opinions, when you spew comments like that?
This reminds me of something...
Omegus wrote: Space Wolves are too dumb to be corrupted.
Could this indeed be the reason the Space Wolves are immune to corruption? Who can say?
The Space Wolves can say with Soup-Nazi-voice "No sossery for you!" during the games and it seem to be similar but not quite the same. I basically regard the shamanistic ways of the the Rune Priests as a way different connection to the warp than the Librarians which I look more as a class of wizard or sorcerer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have actually thought so as well VD. And you have admitted you like to speak up against the Space Wolves has caused me to think you at least doesn't like them.
@Void dude here is the newsflash - I don't belive they are immune to chaos (not like GK are) , it turns them into mindless beasts for Christ sake; who btw can shredd their own companies, if they are not controled...
But chaos corruption is a whole different trait....Even the freaking Abnett or ADB (not sure if I remember) said on his blogpost that the biggest irony is the SW and GK are working together considering their anti warp genes....
Magnus said it best - AGAIN, check my sig.....
Also your argument about librarians is that sentence ??? I think I'll bow out of this one......To intellectual for my huuurrrr mind....
+ I never said you YOU are a hater...Just your comments are pretty heavy one sided.....Even the freaking TS have two factions, and I'm pretty heavy with Ahriman and will defend his PoV with my life...
DarthMarko wrote: @Void dude here is the newsflash - I don't belive they are immune to chaos (not like GK are) , it turns them into mindless beasts for Christ sake; who btw can shredd their own companies, if they are not controled...
But chaos corruption is a whole different trait....
Magnus said it best - AGAIN, check my sig.....
Also your argument about librarians is that sentence ??? I think I'll bow out of this one......To intellectual for my huuurrrr mind....
You're right. Chaos corruption overrides the laws of physics, and the only beings in the setting that are said to be immune to it are the Grey Knights, the Emperor, and the Necrons (Probably also Untouchables but whatever).
Bolt of Change hits Space Wolf. What happens?
Oh, and do note I'll actually go ahead and admit that Space Wolves are [I]resistant[/I[ to corruption, but not immune.
Yeah, the sentence that states that they use the Warp just like Librarians do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: @+ I never said you YOU are a hater...Just your comments are pretty heavy one sided.....Even the freaking TS have two factions, and I'm pretty heavy with Ahriman and will defend his PoV with my life...
Then uh, who else were you talking about, considering a well-known hater? Because I am the most outspoken on this site possibly, and certainly this thread, concerning that.
The only other person that could be called such that comes to mind is Omegus.
I don't particularly dislike the Space Wolves, and I liked a lot of their portrayal in Prospero Burns (Hated their portrayal in the codex though, which is why I originally disliked them), but I do admittedly argue against them. A lot.
But I like to think I also give them their dues. When most others were disregarding Njal in a thread to figure out the most powerful psykers, I spoke up and said a convincing argument could be made of Njal being on par with the other Chief-Librarians spoken about in prowess.
C'mon just check Fenris (who I think is the conduit ) and shifting continets + whole life and death circle...Is it so hard to belive that there is a slight difference in their approach to warp energy???
Beaviz81 wrote: I have actually thought so as well VD. And you have admitted you like to speak up against the Space Wolves has caused me to think you at least doesn't like them.
I like to speak up against statements I perceive as incorrect.
Know one of the other factions I most often speak up against? Orks. One of my favorite armies, and I was rocking an Ork avatar and status for a while, for those who care to remember. Yet, IMO, they and the Space Wolves seem to have the same issue, like, some unspoken rule that it is not okay to say anything bad against them, that some posters seem to posit, along with throwing out various disingenuous hyperbolic claims concerning the factions in question.
Darth Marko's comment concerning immunity to corruption isn't that bad, in all honesty, it at least has some basis so I can see where it comes from, I just deny the notion that they are completely immune to Chaos corruption. Frankly, I personally dislike and disbelieve the notion that even the Grey Knights are, but hey.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon just check Fenris (who I think is the conduit ) and shifting continets + whole life and death circle...Is it so hard to belive that there is a slight difference in their approach to warp energy???
Well... Yeah, lol.
I mean, the Space Wolves like to think they are super special snowflakes, only the Rune Priests verifiably travel through the Warp, use the Warp, and can apparently suffer the effects of the Warp.
Vaktathi said it best. The Space Wolves are like the hipsters of 40k.
"The Warp? We don't use that. We use the natural life and death cycles of Fenris. You've probably never heard of it..."
It is a bit of hyperbole attached to all the Space Marines. Especially the ones that take centerstage. I mean there are things I take seriously about the Space Wolves in general being more resistant to corruption than most other Space Marines, but still not immune. I don't like one bit the ludicrous thought of brother riding brother into battle (the wolves on Fenris being former Space Marines), and I sort of think of Space Marines as the gloryboys. Seal team six if you want. They are the ones doing the glorious stuff. The rest are just overshadowed by awesome.
Most Hated Primarch- I don't really hate any of them I'm more indifferent to Gulliman, Khan, and Manus... if I had to pick I'd say
The Lion, screw that guy
Most Hated Legion-Ultramarines, I really hate the Romanesqu stuff and their color scheme just annoys the hell out of me
Most hated Primarch on the internet: Lorgar
Number 1# Legion/chapter to make fun of on the internet: Ultramarines
Most despised type of fanboys on the internet: I'm Alphaius fanboys.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer.
The Space Wolves do, in fact, use the Warp like Librarians do.
And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.
The Wolves are not immune to corruption. They are not Grey Knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.
He forces his Librarians to sit around in a basement for years on end with no outside contact. Not even Angron was so brutal toward his Librarians.
His biggest issue in The Lightning Tower seems to be that he is making the Imperial Palace ugly. A magos is even like "R you srs...?" when Dorn complains to him about that.
And I just found out Roger Ebert is dead so I've lost my previous train of thought and will have to get back to you on the rest of this.
The Rune Priests draw from the warp but they do not use the warp in the same way as the TS or other psykers. This is not a subtle point in the novels or the HH books. The Rune Priests use shamanistic methods and draw from the warp indirectly whereas other psykers seem to just plug directly in the warp. This is why the Edict of Nikea did not apply to them in the novel.
What has never happened in the translation to the table top is to make this difference notable in the way the game works. The Rune Priests really should not be as powerful as regular psykers in the game but obviously the current rune priests are as good as any other in the psychic phase.
Hehe the Space Wolves has always been hypocrites, but in this case the hypocrite is right. I agree with that they have a purer link to the warp than most psykers and are less influenced by the fluctuations of the warp. And they can still in Soup-Nazi-voice yell: "No warp for you!" while they shut out the Hive Mind from the Zerg, I meant Nids.
Beaviz81 wrote: Angron is equally hated or ridiculed on the net.
Yeah the Ultramarines are pecked on a lot, which I attribute to their fans.
I actually like Angron more and more as I read the HH novels, same with Magnus. Angron's character isn't as much of a berserker as I thought he was, just stubborn and prone to falling under the influence of the proto-nails. If anything I feel kinda sorry for the guy.
I dislike the ultramarines for the same reason I disliked the popular kids in school; too damn uppity.
Hm I don't like how people are often just taking Angron as just angry. Heck I have even seen some so-called fans toss around Angryon for rather stupid reasons. I'm just a reporter sort of reporting something I dislike. He has more shades than just being angry.
As for the Ultramarines, they are more like Manchester United. It's mainly the fans, though the players and manager ain't very sympathetic at all and same can be said for the boring invincible heroes they have both become.
TechmarineNic wrote: This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...
I don't agree at all that Lorgar was one of the less intelligent Primarchs -- but to say one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus is especially wrong. Or at least I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word "intelligence."
Maybe he thinks they are the two that made the worst slip-ups?
That is exactly what I mean with the fact that they both made themselves look a bit dumb in front Guilliman and the Emprah
When it comes to people I have talked to, the fanboys (to an extent) have all been with space puppies. They are definitely still cool to talk to and play against, but with a touch of caution.
I agree fanatics are there for all factions (some more than others); if you say anything that disagrees with their view of the faction...you better pray to the dark gods cause is what you get.
Ironwill13791 wrote: When it comes to people I have talked to, the fanboys (to an extent) have all been with space puppies. They are definitely still cool to talk to and play against, but with a touch of caution.
I agree fanatics are there for all factions (some more than others); if you say anything that disagrees with their view of the faction...you better pray to the dark gods cause is what you get.
I can identify a few hardcore Thousand Son fans on here tbh, but it's also worth noting in general that not all fans are fanboys. I'm a fan of Space Wolves personally, but would like to think I'm pretty impartial in a discussion.
Manchu wrote:
TechmarineNic wrote: That is exactly what I mean with the fact that they both made themselves look a bit dumb in front Guilliman and the Emprah
I don't think either Guilliman or the Emperor ever thought of the WB or TS as dumb.
I agree, although to be fair, Guilliman did refer to Lorgar as like a child...
Just Dave wrote: I can identify a few hardcore Thousand Son fans on here tbh, but it's also worth noting in general that not all fans are fanboys. I'm a fan of Space Wolves personally, but would like to think I'm pretty impartial in a discussion.
Name them.
You know you want to.
He probably mean respectively (Lorgar and Magnus).
Perhaps.
I don't see how you can even define what Lorgar did as a "slip-up", from his POV (Magnus by contrast is well-aware that he fethed up). Lorgar kickstarted a galactic civil war and made Chaos more powerful and relevant in the galaxy than ever before, which could be construed as a slip-up by most in the setting, but Lorgar, in his douchiness, views this as a good thing.
Just Dave wrote: I can identify a few hardcore Thousand Son fans on here tbh, but it's also worth noting in general that not all fans are fanboys. I'm a fan of Space Wolves personally, but would like to think I'm pretty impartial in a discussion.
Name them.
You know you want to.
I don't think I need to.
He probably mean respectively (Lorgar and Magnus).
Perhaps.
I don't see how you can even define what Lorgar did as a "slip-up", from his POV (Magnus by contrast is well-aware that he fethed up). Lorgar kickstarted a galactic civil war and made Chaos more powerful and relevant in the galaxy than ever before, which could be construed as a slip-up by most in the setting, but Lorgar, in his douchiness, views this as a good thing.
Oh I agree, it was hardly a slip-up, and was in-fact very deliberate; I was just trying to help elaborate what the person probably meant. He was also probably referring to the events leading up to Monarchia, rather than his manipulations of the Heresy, I suspect.
I actually like the thought of Empy giving considerable thought to if he was a god or not Manchu. Hehehehe. That makes sense in context.
Lorgar: "Daddy I worship thy!"
Empy: "I will sit down and think about if I like getting worshiped for 100 years.
100 years later.
Empy: "Sorry Mac, I don't like to be worshiped."
Lorgar: "But dad-"
Empy: "Robute, destroy this marvelous designed cathedral while Lorgar kneels to us both.
Robute: "Ay, ay dad. Commence destruction!"
Making Lorgar kneel was the worst mistake Empy ever made, that opened a bag of worms. Hehe. Poor chap but he was quite a bad father. Giving Magnus crack I mean warp in the cradle and such. Rejecting Angron's honor and so on.
I dont really like konrad curze or night lords. Just not my thing... but my favorite is dorn. I love the imperial fists and dorns fluff SOOO much! But why did they have to be yellow! I don't like the yellow, so I play BTs which is a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists.
Color Sgt. Kell wrote: I dont really like konrad curze or night lords. Just not my thing... but my favorite is dorn. I love the imperial fists and dorns fluff SOOO much! But why did they have to be yellow! I don't like the yellow, so I play BTs which is a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists.
Except that it's the color I associate with chip-bags I see little wrong with yellow. The Ultras I associate with whitewash and chocolate, the Blood Angels draw their color from just boring things like powder soup and such, the White Scars are milk-cartoons and so on.
Ironwill13791 wrote: When it comes to people I have talked to, the fanboys (to an extent) have all been with space puppies. They are definitely still cool to talk to and play against, but with a touch of caution.
I agree fanatics are there for all factions (some more than others); if you say anything that disagrees with their view of the faction...you better pray to the dark gods cause is what you get.
I can identify a few hardcore Thousand Son fans on here tbh, but it's also worth noting in general that not all fans are fanboys. I'm a fan of Space Wolves personally, but would like to think I'm pretty impartial in a discussion.
I know Just Dave. I am a fan of Dark Angels. I can admit their faults (some make them cooler when you open your mind), and I don't throw a fit at Space Wolves and their players. Fans can have discussions; Fanboys preach . Discussions with closed minded people can suck big time. Not pointing any fingers here though, just saying in general.
Color Sgt. Kell wrote: I dont really like konrad curze or night lords. Just not my thing... but my favorite is dorn. I love the imperial fists and dorns fluff SOOO much! But why did they have to be yellow! I don't like the yellow, so I play BTs which is a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists.
Except that it's the color I associate with chip-bags I see little wrong with yellow. The Ultras I associate with whitewash and chocolate, the Blood Angels draw their color from just boring things like powder soup and such, the White Scars are milk-cartoons and so on.
JWhex wrote: I have never found SW players that I have gamed against to be any more fanatical than anyone else.
The most devoted players are usually the long term Ork players, and I mean devoted in the positive sense of things.
Space Wolves generally get the most hate. Which means that those who defend them are seen doing more often. Which often means that SW fans are quiker to get worked up because they have to repeat themselves... A lot. So its more a Fan vs hater issue rather then just SW fans being insane. Not to say that some are not.
JWhex wrote: I have never found SW players that I have gamed against to be any more fanatical than anyone else.
The most devoted players are usually the long term Ork players, and I mean devoted in the positive sense of things.
Space Wolves generally get the most hate. Which means that those who defend them are seen doing more often. Which often means that SW fans are quiker to get worked up because they have to repeat themselves... A lot. So its more a Fan vs hater issue rather then just SW fans being insane. Not to say that some are not.
QFT - but it depends...Big three: UM, SW, DA are always the target from specific hater profiles.....
But I think the vote for most bashed chapter (all around) goes to UM....
Kids for instance hate them without even knowing the basic facts...
Kid1 : Hahahaha Ultrasmurfs !!!!
Me : Huh? Do you even know any basic facts about them ?
Kid2 : hahahahah Rowboat Girlyman
Me :
Stonerhino wrote:Space Wolves generally get the most hate. Which means that those who defend them are seen doing more often. Which often means that SW fans are quiker to get worked up because they have to repeat themselves... A lot. So its more a Fan vs hater issue rather then just SW fans being insane. Not to say that some are not.
It's a partial truth. Near any player here in my city love the wolves, yes someone less than others 'cause maybe they don't like the whole Vikings thigs but they're okay with the fluff etc.
I personally think that haters (or fanboys) are simply the garbage of the fanbase around an army, or more in general around a band/game/ etc
DarthMarko wrote:
QFT - but it depends...Big three: UM, SW, DA are always the target from specific hater profiles.....
But I think the vote for most bashed chapter (all around) goes to UM....
Kids for instance hate them without even knowing the basic facts...
Kid1 : Hahahaha Ultrasmurfs !!!!
Me : Huh? Do you even know any basic facts about them ?
Kid2 : hahahahah Rowboat Girlyman
Me :
Uhm... I liked the UM until the latest 'dex. I love the whole Romans-like mini-Empire they have built, but this new "they're better than any other chapter, except for the GK" it's something that pushed me away from them.
Dammit...
Blood Angels seem to draw quite a bit hate on their own. If I should go by hate as a meter alone the Ultramarines would be the kings of that hatred with the Blood Angels as number two. Then comes the Blood Ravens (I know but I'm now going by most reviled chapters), then the SW, DA and BT seems to share the fourth spot , but I mainly attribute that to their popularity.
Space Wolves aren't one of the most hated chapters, lol.
The Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights are. There is a common factor in all three of these codices. A certain magician with a terrible beard.
A lot of fans simply think the Space Wolves get the most hate because they can't handle criticism for their favorite chapter.
Beaviz81 wrote: Making Lorgar kneel was the worst mistake Empy ever made, that opened a bag of worms. Hehe. Poor chap but he was quite a bad father. Giving Magnus crack I mean warp in the cradle and such. Rejecting Angron's honor and so on.
I've heard so many people give the Big E crap because of how he treated his sons... it's quite a juvenile argument IMO. Calling him a bad parent is, at the very least, baseless and has no founding or context since the word "Parent" only loosely applies to him.
Firstly, his twenty sons were actually his twenty sci-fantasy-gene-clones who all basically represent an Imperial mini me. That being said, he probably did love them. He wanted what was best for them. he also didn't just start over and make twenty new sci-fantasy-gene-clones to take their place. He crusaded across the galaxy to recover them.
As it regards specific instances like Lorgar and him being denied the religion he was clearly looking for... As a father (without being TFG) he had 20 truly "gifted" sons. Not "gifted" by today's standards of "my kid showed up for class and can string a coherent thought into a sentence - honor roll" crap... his sons are genuine prodigies. You cannot have "average" expectations for them. Being great means being pushed harder than average. The Emperor was hard on them not because he favored some above others, but because he wanted them to achieve greatness.
Lecturing Lorgar was the Emperor saying "You're better than that IMO"... not "I don't love you".
Void__Dragon wrote: Space Wolves aren't one of the most hated chapters, lol.
The Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights are. There is a common factor in all three of these codices. A certain magician with a terrible beard.
A lot of fans simply think the Space Wolves get the most hate because they can't handle criticism for their favorite chapter.
Ooooh, it's Matt Ward hatin' I'm seeing here?
By the way yeah, it's all Wolves' fan fault... sure... lol seriously when I see certain comment I laugh my pants off.
It's like: "It's not haters fault, it's the fans' one!!"... ridiculous
I sort of base my perception of hate towards the SW on one simple question. "Do you think the wolves on Fenris stems from humans?" If your question is yes there, then I sort of draw the conclusion that you at least dislike them and most likely ain't very well intended towards them.
I'm not a Wolves fanboy, I simply like 'em.
And to be honest, I like almost every army in the game, even the GK.
Yes, sometime I joke about how "GK are cheesy" or SoB are "Bolter Bitches with eternal mestruation", but I could never seriously "hate" an army.
It's a hobby, afterall. A hobby I love, but still a hobby
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Void__Dragon wrote: Battle brother riding battle brother is the single best revelation of the Horus Heresy.
"I am not a god; rather than enslaving humanity I want to free it from ignorance and superstition."
-Emperor
Lorgar pretty much disagree with this philosophy.. So yeah, kinda hate Lorgar. But I do love the whole concept of the word bearers legion because of the scriptures and relics, and of course the zealot mentallity and dedication they have to the chaos gods. I love painting scriptures and texts too. I hate the primarch, but love the legion/chapter.
Just Dave wrote: I'm still yet to be convinced by people's criticisms of Dorn, personally.
Which "criticisms" in particular?
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DarthMarko wrote: If you go by the old WD stories, Dorn was awesome but lately BL really messed him up....IMHO
Also I consider IF as true vanilla marines...brofist
P.S. Still waiting for the BL to explain anti codex - best codex chapter transformation....
How did BL mess him up?
Also, them going from anti-codex to best codex short of Ultramarines is also studio fluff.
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Jonavic wrote: "I am not a god; rather than enslaving humanity I want to free it from ignorance and superstition."
-Emperor
Lorgar pretty much disagree with this philosophy...
Actually no, the Emperor's philosophy was a lie he used to control the masses, he kept humanity as a whole intentionally in the dark about the true nature of the universe.
It was Lorgar who sought truth, and boy, did he find it, lol.
Jonavic wrote: "I am not a god; rather than enslaving humanity I want to free it from ignorance and superstition."
-Emperor
Actually no, the Emperor's philosophy was a lie he used to control the masses, he kept humanity as a whole intentionally in the dark about the true nature of the universe.
It was Lorgar who sought truth, and boy, did he find it, lol.
Didnt the Emperor reject the Dogmatism and worship of him? The Emperor clearly couldnt control the whole imperium, so wasnt it more corruption of religion and fascism that twisted the whole view of what the emperor really wanted? After he died of course... correct me if im wrong u_u
Only when nipples and sandals unite to pour forth their light, then and only then, do the true scions of sanguinius appear... And ye shall know them by the red thirst, the black rage and the trail of tears.
I don't dislike any legion particularly. There are just legions that I know less about (Iron Hands/White Scars etc)
I could say I hate the White Scars, then the next WS book comes out and they're amazingly well portrayed = My opinion changes immediately. It's not that I'm easily influenced or anything...
Fulgrim and the Emperors children, what a bunch of spoiled children, They give me a headache every time i read about them. I jsut want to shove a boltgun to their face and tell them to shut the up and do what they're told. the oly good thing about them is when Loken sucker punches, the more annoying than usuall for an EC, Lucius.
Oh i had no problem with Saul Tarvitz,
The again all traitors seem to have the emotional responses of teenagers.
Most dissapointing is ofcource the lion, they totally forgot the man was a primarch. Also less high functioning socio-path and more King arthur please, maybe even some Gustavus Adoplhus (the lion of the north).
Or something how the chaos gods had originally intended for him to be their champion but he refused them, of all the primarchs the oldest one, the emperors first-born ends up on the most tainted planet that a primarch ends up on, i feel the placement may have been intentional. And being so close to the eye the lion probably heard the whispers of the dark gods before hearing the voice of human.
These aspects should've been explored.
Haha, you're not really supposed to like the chaos worshipping guys Word Bearers are AWFUL AWFUL people, like Nazis times a thousand. The mutilate entire planets (They literally tear up the planets) and their populaces just for giggles. And everyone is scared of the Batman.
Leman russ worst primarch of the most 80's styled, hateful army in 40k.
Ruining their gene pool like savages! Oooo we've got enlarged canines, yeah great! Their styles fit better with fantasy not 40k!
Primarchs a joker!
Lion el Johnson. Quality. Survives on caliban a planet warped by the chaos energies before being found, rises to the top of the order, purged caliban. of chaos taint. this is all before he is betrayed by his surrogate "father" and mentor, while off whooping traitor a**e during the heresy....
Cheers Luther!-Scum Bag!
Deserves to live out the rest of his miserable days in the rock dungeons!
Oh and Johnson knocks leman russ out!
Mad Boss Morgrot wrote: Leman russ worst primarch of the most 80's styled, hateful army in 40k. Ruining their gene pool like savages! Oooo we've got enlarged canines, yeah great! Their styles fit better with fantasy not 40k! Primarchs a joker!
Lion el Johnson. Quality. Survives on caliban a planet warped by the chaos energies before being found, rises to the top of the order, purged caliban. of chaos taint. this is all before he is betrayed by his surrogate "father" and mentor, while off whooping traitor a**e during the heresy.... Cheers Luther!-Scum Bag! Deserves to live out the rest of his miserable days in the rock dungeons! Oh and Johnson knocks leman russ out!
What is it about the wolves and the D.A that mean we can't like one AND the other?
They both had their flaws - eg - Russ for being 'beardy' while not having a beard and Johnson randomly killing his own men...
@predakhaine ...How can you be friend with one legion which is ALL gay, and afraid to come out of closet ? And their primarch sucker-puncher backstaber douchebag ? And you don't even know, are current DA traitors ?
DarthMarko wrote: @predakhaine ...How can you be friend with one legion which is ALL gay, and afraid to come out of closet ? And their primarch sucker-puncher backstaber douchebag ? And you don't even know, are current DA traitors ?
As I said - its one or the other. The same is also true of the thousand sons - we either like the sons or the wolves.
Space wolves fans should create a conflict between the 1ksons and the D.A. Then, they could complain about each other instead of the wolves..
What is it about the wolves and the D.A that mean we can't like one AND the other?
They both had their flaws - eg - Russ for being 'beardy' while not having a beard and Johnson randomly killing his own men...
Basically, the Lion killstealed Russ and they got in a huge scrap about it. Then, Russ stopped and laughed at how petty the quarrel was in an attempt to diffuse the tension (I know right?) and instead, the Lion sucker punched him.
Since then, their Legions haven't gotten along.
PredaKhaine wrote: Do BT and wolves get on? Is the enemy of my enemy my friend?
Well no....Or yes....Depends if BT are worshiping GOD Emp or not...
If no (stick to IT and Emperor's original plan) full of win for the SW..
If yes - not so much....
DarthMarko wrote: @predakhaine ...How can you be friend with one legion which is ALL gay, and afraid to come out of closet ?
Was this funny when you conceived it in your head, or did it come off as bigoted there as it does now?
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Mad Boss Morgrot wrote: Leman russ worst primarch of the most 80's styled, hateful army in 40k.
Ruining their gene pool like savages! Oooo we've got enlarged canines, yeah great! Their styles fit better with fantasy not 40k!
Primarchs a joker!
Lion el Johnson. Quality. Survives on caliban a planet warped by the chaos energies before being found, rises to the top of the order, purged caliban. of chaos taint. this is all before he is betrayed by his surrogate "father" and mentor, while off whooping traitor a**e during the heresy....
Cheers Luther!-Scum Bag!
Deserves to live out the rest of his miserable days in the rock dungeons!
Oh and Johnson knocks leman russ out!
The Lion was an unfeeling sociopath though.
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Darth Bob wrote: Basically, the Lion killstealed Russ and they got in a huge scrap about it. Then, Russ stopped and laughed at how petty the quarrel was in an attempt to diffuse the tension (I know right?) and instead, the Lion sucker punched him.
Since then, their Legions haven't gotten along.
Not quite true. The Lion and Russ were bros4life after that incident, it was only after they were no longer leading the Legions that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves grew to despise eachother.
I honestly dislike Lorgar, Perturabo, Horus, and the Lion the most. Lorgar, cause he's a dick, Perturabo, cause he's mortal enemies with Dorn, and the Lion, due to the fact he seems to be the most boring Primarch. Horus however, is my least favorite. He just has freaking daddy issues and wants all of the attention, even though he already gets most of it. Not to say they don't have some badass qualities, but I find many more primarchs much more interesting.
EDIT: Also, Konrad Curze is overrated. I don't really care for him.
Legions I dislike? Iron Hands, Night Lords, Word Bearers and the Dark Angels.
Iron Hands are freaking cool, but after reading their book, I realized that they're pretty much the rudest marines ever. They're amazingly awesome, but they're terrible people.
Post Heresy Night Lords just look like the silliest things EVER. They're just so... Ew... I admit, there are times when they can look cool, but most of the time they look like circus clowns.
Eh. Out of most of the Legions, they're kinda bland to me. And they remind me of Jehovah's witnesses. "Do you have time to hear of the word of Lorgar?"
The Dark Angels are dicks. Seriously.
And I'm sure people would wanna know "What DO you like then?"
Primarchs-wise, Vulkan is the MOST bad ass. He's my favorite.
Leman Russ is kinda cool. Just kind. He sure as hell isn't Angron.
Ferrus is pretty bad ass, one of my favorites too.
Angron is the most bad ass traitor primarch.
Dorn is pretty decent himself.
And Alpharius, cause, well, Alpha Legion.
My favorite Legions? Obviously Salamanders, who are FREAKING AMAZING.
World Eaters, because brutal, unrelenting carnage!
Imperial Fists are pretty cool, plus they sired the two most BADASS chapters ever (see Black Templars and Crimson Fists)
Alpha Legion. Just, yes.
Death Guard also seem to be pretty freaking awesome as well.
the dark angels and wolves don't hate each other in all sources several states them as having a gruding respect for one another.
And while I hate the idea of space vikings (hey why don't you make money of your own cultural heritage for a change?), they arent nearly as irritating as the EC.
And as i said earlier the HHDA stuff really misses some points.
But the fans don't like each others legions - it's like football in that respect. Over here liverpool and Man U fans don't get along (they can, but they have far too much fun slating each others teams )
The D.A fans claim the Wolves 'are a bunch of hairy vikings in spaaaace!' while the Wolves fans claim that the D.A are all literally based on 'The Dark Angel'. A lot of people seem to dislike the wolves aesthetic - They see it as 'Wolves riding wolves' and all that...
So my thought is - what is it about the Space Wolves that polarises the 40k fans so much? Why just does it just seem to be the wolves too? No other legion seems to generate as much love and hate as that chapter. Russ seems to have the most 'fanboys' and 'haters' out of all the primarchs - thats the only reason I can think of for why the wolves seem to win all polls.
TheDungen wrote: (hey why don't you make money of your own cultural heritage for a change?)
Could you explain this please, I'm not entirely sure what you meant?
There are only really one or two Primarchs I dislike, they are Jaghati Khan and Vulcan.
I wouldn't say I hated any Primarch or legion, but purely based on un-interesting-ness and the fact that they are very dull, make these two my most disliked. Although I would say the Khan is slightly less so than Vulcan.
A lot of people seem to dislike the wolves aesthetic - They see it as 'Wolves riding wolves' and all that...
So my thought is - what is it about the Space Wolves that polarises the 40k fans so much? Why just does it just seem to be the wolves too? No other legion seems to generate as much love and hate as that chapter.
Russ seems to have the most 'fanboys' and 'haters' out of all the primarchs - thats the only reason I can think of for why the wolves seem to win all polls.
TheDungen wrote: (hey why don't you make money of your own cultural heritage for a change?)
Could you explain this please, I'm not entirely sure what you meant?
Quite a few people probably do not like the SW because the codex is pretty good and smashed a lot of face when it first came out.
I like the SW and have plenty of models from the SW, DA and BA range going back to when these chapters first started getting unique models in second edition. I really hate the thunderwolves though and mock the moron that invented that abomination.
I think a lot of the SW fan vs DA fan is mostly just internet silliness because I never encounter it at tournaments or in casual games.
And while I hate the idea of space vikings (hey why don't you make money of your own cultural heritage for a change)?
.
LOL black templars (who even have crusades), ultramarines, white scars, imperial fists, IG regiments etc.??? I really think this is a silly obesrvation, no offense, athough vikings are "pretty win" situtation for marketing and attracting the fans...
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PredaKhaine wrote: But the fans don't like each others legions - it's like football in that respect. Over here liverpool and Man U fans don't get along (they can, but they have far too much fun slating each others teams )
Here is what I would add : SW are - Barcelona, DA are Real Madrid (or vice versa:-)
So my thought is - what is it about the Space Wolves that polarises the 40k fans so much? Why just does it just seem to be the wolves too? No other legion seems to generate as much love and hate as that chapter.
Russ seems to have the most 'fanboys' and 'haters' out of all the primarchs - thats the only reason I can think of for why the wolves seem to win all polls.
They can't change one fact : according to AD-B, SW have the biggest fanbase and most fierce fanboyz Ooo, and don't forget, lot of us are older SW players and fluff junkies (I'm talking about 20 years and more), so haters can only bark...
Also my friend, check this thread; people were spitting fire on every chapter (mostly DA and UM) but people respond very badly when SW are used ...So that tells you something...
I sound like a fanatic, now...nevermind...FENRIS HJOLDA
A lot of GW works are used to make the Space Wolves look good, at the expense of another faction, which I think plays a part.
Spoiler:
The Emperor's Gift, for example. Apparently, Hyperion can't so much as budge Logan Grimnar telekinetically. Apparently Logan Grimnar is more unstoppable a force than the Black Sword of the Daemon Primarch Angron, which Hyperion halted and shattered.
Void__Dragon wrote: A lot of GW works are used to make the Space Wolves look good, at the expense of another faction, which I think plays a part.
The Emperor's Gift, for example. Apparently, Hyperion can't so much as budge Logan Grimnar telekinetically. Apparently Logan Grimnar is more unstoppable a force than the Black Sword of the Daemon Primarch Angron, which Hyperion halted and shattered.
He not only could not stop him but went so far as to call him an "Unkillable Jarl" after facing down Angron.
But not being able to stop Logan is not without its precedent. We have Ragnaar in his first novel overpowering a low level Inquisitor's psykic powers, as a bloodclaw no less. Then we have Magnus bearly able to restrain Ironhelm in Battle of the Fang. And finally we have Space Wolves forcing back the Thousand Son's psychic wall on Shrike, in A Thousand Sons.
Beaviz81 wrote: Why hate the Khan and Vulkan? They are like I don't know, St. Louis Blues. The color of neutrality.
Where is the hate for these I dont remember seeing much.
Here is some fun trivia for the White Scars fans. The very FIRST army list for a space marine army published in the "First Book of the Astronomican" was the White Scars.
Stonerhino wrote: He not only could not stop him but went so far as to call him an "Unkillable Jarl" after facing down Angron.
But not being able to stop Logan is not without its precedent. We have Ragnaar in his first novel overpowering a low level Inquisitor's psykic powers, as a bloodclaw no less. Then we have Magnus bearly able to restrain Ironhelm in Battle of the Fang. And finally we have Space Wolves forcing back the Thousand Son's psychic wall on Shrike, in A Thousand Sons.
I have no comment on the Space Wolf novels nor Battle of the Fang: But in A Thousand Sons, the Biomancers broke the Space Wolf advance, if you recall.
Spoiler:
I'm sorry, but nothing you could ever say would justify Hyperion stopping the Black Sword of Angron and breaking it, and then being unable to even move Logan Grimnar. Plot armour was at work there.
Stonerhino wrote: He not only could not stop him but went so far as to call him an "Unkillable Jarl" after facing down Angron.
But not being able to stop Logan is not without its precedent. We have Ragnaar in his first novel overpowering a low level Inquisitor's psykic powers, as a bloodclaw no less. Then we have Magnus bearly able to restrain Ironhelm in Battle of the Fang. And finally we have Space Wolves forcing back the Thousand Son's psychic wall on Shrike, in A Thousand Sons.
I have no comment on the Space Wolf novels nor Battle of the Fang: But in A Thousand Sons, the Biomancers broke the Space Wolf advance, if you recall.
I'm sorry, but nothing you could ever say would justify Hyperion stopping the Black Sword of Angron and breaking it, and then being unable to even move Logan Grimnar. Plot armour was at work there.
You mean like how he almost made his head explode pushing himself to far in the attempt vs Angron and not overloading vs Logan.
You should also note that Mcneil made a point to point out that Skarssen was able to force himself to stand with the misfiring neural impulses, after only falling to one knee. Shear force of will is a hell of thing.
Even if comparing using telekinesis to biomancy is akin to saying Doombolts kill SWs therefore every psychic power shoul be equally effective.
Stonerhino wrote: You mean like how he almost made his head explode pushing himself to far in the attempt vs Angron and not overloading vs Logan.
You should also note that Mcneil made a point to point out that Skarssen was able to force himself to stand with the misfiring neural impulses, after only falling to one knee. Shear force of will is a hell of thing.
Even if comparing using telekinesis to biomancy is akin to saying Doombolts kill SWs therefore every psychic power shoul be equally effective.
That doesn't mean a lot when you consider the astronomical difference in power between Angron, the Daemon Primarch, and Logan in Terminator Armour. It's like someone straining to pick a car up over his head being unable to lift a pencil.
Skarssen did indeed manage that. Good for him.
Given an equal psyker using it? Of course they would be equally effective. Are you asserting that the Space Wolves have a specific resistance to telekinesis? Show me the fluff to state as much, if so.
Hyperion was a very powerful psyker, capable of stopping the Black Blade, and tossing Space Marines in power armour as though they were children's toys, with his telekinesis. It is nonsense for Logan to be more resistant to Hyperion's powers than the mightiest of all servants of Khorne, the Daemon Primarch Angron.
Stonerhino wrote: You mean like how he almost made his head explode pushing himself to far in the attempt vs Angron and not overloading vs Logan.
You should also note that Mcneil made a point to point out that Skarssen was able to force himself to stand with the misfiring neural impulses, after only falling to one knee. Shear force of will is a hell of thing.
Even if comparing using telekinesis to biomancy is akin to saying Doombolts kill SWs therefore every psychic power shoul be equally effective.
That doesn't mean a lot when you consider the astronomical difference in power between Angron, the Daemon Primarch, and Logan in Terminator Armour. It's like someone straining to pick a car up over his head being unable to lift a pencil.
Skarssen did indeed manage that. Good for him.
Given an equal psyker using it? Of course they would be equally effective. Are you asserting that the Space Wolves have a specific resistance to telekinesis? Show me the fluff to state as much, if so.
Hyperion was a very powerful psyker, capable of stopping the Black Blade, and tossing Space Marines in power armour as though they were children's toys, with his telekinesis. It is nonsense for Logan to be more resistant to Hyperion's powers than the mightiest of all servants of Khorne, the Daemon Primarch Angron.
Its more like how like some people can pick up a car when they are trying to save their child. When they would stand no chance of it on a normal day.
Void__Dragon wrote: Your analogy would only have validity were Logan Grimnar, indeed, as formidable and difficult to stop as Angron.
I'd like to believe you are not implying that, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.
No not at all. That same person who moved the car might not be able to move 200 lbs on a normal day. The analogy was just to point out that some people perform extreme feats far beyond their abiities under extreme duress. Especially when it is to save another person.
What about Mephiston and Kaldor? I basically speculate that the latter is a missing Primarch, and Mephiston is a freaking tank when fielded. If anyone can go mano a mano with the Olde Wolfe then it's those two.
Beaviz81 wrote: What about Mephiston and Kaldor? I basically speculate that the latter is a missing Primarch, and Mephiston is a freaking tank when fielded. If anyone can go mano a mano with the Olde Wolfe then it's those two.
Nope Logan would kill them, and drink beer from their skulls....:-)
Seriously those to are protected by famous Ward (level 11) - so I don't really don't use them as serious comparision....
O and they are filthy witches, so totally another category...
The way I think you should read the Wardian texts is thinking, that's how they think of themselves. Then it actually makes sense reading it. Though the Necrons get unintentionally funny then.
DarthMarko wrote: And you comparision would only be valid if Angron went 1 on 1 with Hyperion and Logan was a deamon....Totally disergard the whole battle btw....JIZUZ
1 on 1 there isn't a SM that could rival Logan, except maybe Dante or Smurfgar so this isn't really a debate...
Spoiler:
Angron was butchering through dozens of Grey Knights with all the ease of a lawnmower fighting a field of grass. So what you are saying is that Logan not being a Daemon makes him immune to telekinetic power that can stop a blow capable of cleaving a Titan to pieces (Not an exaggeration, given ADB's portrayal of Angron in Betrayer and the fact that Daemon Angron is the size of one). Angron must weigh hundreds of thousands of tons, yet Hyperion blocked his blow, and shattered his Daemon sword. While the Grey Knights do have powers, like the Aegis, that counteract Daemons, their basic telekinesis isn't any more or less effective on Daemons or Space Marines.
That's speculation, and totally beside the point. Lorgar is a formidable opponent, but he doesn't have an established special snowflake immunity to psychic powers. If he did, it wouldn't be plot armour.
Also, there's this weird irony, you saying that Mephiston and Draigo don't count in your claim for being "witches"... And... Hyperion isn't? Hyperion is a tremendously powerful psyker, to the extent that he was considered powerful enough to become a Prognosticar, but was too rash to be allowed admittance.
Also, the thing with Logan is but one problem. The entire final third of the Emperor's Gift was devoted towards making the Space Wolves look good and the Grey Knights look like gak. In a Grey Knights book.
Angron vs Titan has a bit more then just Angron destroying one....To quote my brother Lux
Spoiler:
What happened was that Lorgar was use his telekenisis to dig down to Angron to save him, however in the midst of doing so a Ultramarines Warhound Titan came upon him. It aimed its main cannon into the hole that Lorgar was digging in, and fired a Plasma cannon charge at him of which Lorgar used his psychic powers to block and protect himself as well as a 5 foot radius around him. The Titan than shot a second plasma cannon charge at Lorgar, which this time charred Lorgar and burned nearly every inch of his skin leaving him in a near death state.
The titan's core was exhausted after the second plasma cannon charge thus the captain said to crush lorgar by stepping on him, right before the Titans clawed foot landed on Lorgar Angron emerged and put himself between lorgar and the foot. It specifically states that every sinew in Angron's body was snapping and breaking, and that his spine even for a primarch was being crushed.
Angron never once lifted the Titans foot or pushed it back, in fact if the World Eaters Titan had not shown up both Lorgar and Angron would have died. Even with Lorgar adding the last of Psychic might to Angron's strength, Angron was still in the processing of being crushed.
So where people get this idea that Angron lifted a Titan I have no idea, he merely slowed the descent of its foot from crushing Lorgar and would himself had died if not for being rescued.
But I don't see the point - chapter masters are a badasses...they kick random GK any day of the week...I see it that way...
It wasn't so much a case of ADB making the Wolves look good, as differing interpretations. Some people believe it made the Wolves look irresponsible and short-sighted, whilst others believe it did indeed make them look good.
It didn't exactly make the Grey Knights look bad either, as it helped establish their motivations and a concious (whereas most other aspects of them are well established); it created a set of morals for the reader to ponder themselves, as with the Wolves.
All the while, it stuck with the generally established events of Armageddon (but elaborated upon) and the general character of the Wolves.
I also believe your points re: Hyperion should probably be spoiler-tagged.
But morals of the GK completely go into water, when "I" allowed rich and influential to go free...So disagree, this wasn't a pure act of "remove the contamination"....
DarthMarko wrote: But morals of the GK completely go into water, when "I" allowed rich and influential to go free...So disagree, this wasn't a pure act of "remove the contamination"....
That wasn't the morals of the GK though; theirs were concerned with whether to follow "I" or not.
I also imagine your point re: Angron above should be spoiler-tagged; I haven't read Betrayer yet.
DarthMarko wrote: But morals of the GK completely go into water, when "I" allowed rich and influential to go free...So disagree, this wasn't a pure act of "remove the contamination"....
That wasn't the morals of the GK though; theirs were concerned with whether to follow "I" or not.
I also imagine your point re: Angron above should be spoiler-tagged; I haven't read Betrayer yet.
Damn Somehow I knew you notice that - sorry Dave, I hope you didn't read it...
Just Dave wrote: It wasn't so much a case of ADB making the Wolves look good, as differing interpretations. Some people believe it made the Wolves look irresponsible and short-sighted, whilst others believe it did indeed make them look good.
I might be more inclined to believe that POV if the Wolves are really shown to suffer any of the consequences. I don't recall a Grey Knight beheading Logan Grimnar and killing several more of the Space Wolves before teleporting away unscathed.
Oh sure, you get a throwaway line from Bjorn about how "Not even Dr. Maguns the Red fethed Fenris up this bad!!!" but as far as I remember, most of that whole Fenris being fethed up thing came from Inquisitorial ships being destroyed in orbit (Basically, Wolves fethed themselves up), and most of the debris did nothing to the Fang.
So on the GK/Inquisition side...
We have a Lord Inquisitor, a Grey Knight Grand Master, and multiple ranking Grey Knights killed by Space Wolves.
On Space Wolf side, we have... Who of note? No one I recall. Not even the Inquisitor (the worst character in the book) who betrayed her organization and her comrades, aiding Logan and friends in trying to kill people she has known for years at that point (Might have time frame a bit confused). Her getting off scott-free confirms, in my opinion, that we are meant to see the Space Wolves as "correct". It doesn't help that the whole book, we see the Grey Knights being generally emo and hating themselves over what they are doing, thinking the Wolves might indeed be right, praising the Space Wolves, while the Wolves do none of the same in return. The last third turned the Space Wolves into Gary Stues who can do no wrong. Oh, and that we have to actually be told that the Inquisitor Lord is in fact a punk bitch who only made a name for himself by handling low-scale, localized threats (I didn't know that alone got you a position as an Inquisitor Lord, how very interesting ADB), which is directly stated to make him incompetent at handling the situation. Just so that there is no doubt who (The Space Wolves) is meant to be in the right here.
The irony here: I would side with the Space Wolves. I think they were right, and the events that followed (Namely, the guardsmen not turning into Chaos-worshipping pedophiles) vindicates their opinion, but the book should have handled the two opposing viewpoints better, and in a far less biased fashion.
It didn't exactly make the Grey Knights look bad either, as it helped establish their motivations and a concious (whereas most other aspects of them are well established); it created a set of morals for the reader to ponder themselves, as with the Wolves.
I agree, but the text seems to imply that the Wolf point of view is the "right" one, which is supported by Space Wolves basically curbing GK ass all day.
All the while, it stuck with the generally established events of Armageddon (but elaborated upon) and the general character of the Wolves.
If by, "stuck with", you mean "shoehorned the Grey Knights into a confrontation they originally played no part in", then I'd agree.
I also believe your points re: Hyperion should probably be spoiler-tagged.
Probably.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: Angron vs Titan has a bit more then just Angron destroying one....To quote my brother Lux
Spoiler:
What happened was that Lorgar was use his telekenisis to dig down to Angron to save him, however in the midst of doing so a Ultramarines Warhound Titan came upon him. It aimed its main cannon into the hole that Lorgar was digging in, and fired a Plasma cannon charge at him of which Lorgar used his psychic powers to block and protect himself as well as a 5 foot radius around him. The Titan than shot a second plasma cannon charge at Lorgar, which this time charred Lorgar and burned nearly every inch of his skin leaving him in a near death state.
The titan's core was exhausted after the second plasma cannon charge thus the captain said to crush lorgar by stepping on him, right before the Titans clawed foot landed on Lorgar Angron emerged and put himself between lorgar and the foot. It specifically states that every sinew in Angron's body was snapping and breaking, and that his spine even for a primarch was being crushed.
Angron never once lifted the Titans foot or pushed it back, in fact if the World Eaters Titan had not shown up both Lorgar and Angron would have died. Even with Lorgar adding the last of Psychic might to Angron's strength, Angron was still in the processing of being crushed.
So where people get this idea that Angron lifted a Titan I have no idea, he merely slowed the descent of its foot from crushing Lorgar and would himself had died if not for being rescued.
But I don't see the point - chapter masters are a badasses...they kick random GK any day of the week...I see it that way...
I haven't actually read Betrayer, people just like spoiling gak for me, but BlaxicanX says you are like, super wrong dude.
Hyperion is not a random Grey Knight.
Grey Knights are better than normal Space Marines on average. This is not a debatable point.
Grey Knights are better than normal Space Marines on average. This is not a debatable point.
Only in fightning deamons...rest is debateable...VERY....
And according to EG hmmmm....Nope
But they have more modern equpiment (read: 3 megapixel camera in their helms, and the "force " sticks), but waaaaait chapters have pre-heresy era EPIC stuff....
Grey Knights are better than normal Space Marines on average. This is not a debatable point.
Only in fightning deamons...rest is debateable...VERY....
And according to EG hmmmm....Nope
But they have more modern equpiment (read: 3 megapixel camera in their helms, and the "force " sticks), but waaaaait chapters have pre-heresy era EPIC stuff....
Each one of them is psychic: they're better than a normal Space Marine.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Spoiler:
Just Dave wrote: It wasn't so much a case of ADB making the Wolves look good, as differing interpretations. Some people believe it made the Wolves look irresponsible and short-sighted, whilst others believe it did indeed make them look good.
I might be more inclined to believe that POV if the Wolves are really shown to suffer any of the consequences. I don't recall a Grey Knight beheading Logan Grimnar and killing several more of the Space Wolves before teleporting away unscathed.
Oh sure, you get a throwaway line from Bjorn about how "Not even Dr. Maguns the Red fethed Fenris up this bad!!!" but as far as I remember, most of that whole Fenris being fethed up thing came from Inquisitorial ships being destroyed in orbit (Basically, Wolves fethed themselves up), and most of the debris did nothing to the Fang.
So on the GK/Inquisition side...
We have a Lord Inquisitor, a Grey Knight Grand Master, and multiple ranking Grey Knights killed by Space Wolves.
On Space Wolf side, we have... Who of note? No one I recall. Not even the Inquisitor (the worst character in the book) who betrayed her organization and her comrades, aiding Logan and friends in trying to kill people she has known for years at that point (Might have time frame a bit confused). Her getting off scott-free confirms, in my opinion, that we are meant to see the Space Wolves as "correct". It doesn't help that the whole book, we see the Grey Knights being generally emo and hating themselves over what they are doing, thinking the Wolves might indeed be right, praising the Space Wolves, while the Wolves do none of the same in return. The last third turned the Space Wolves into Gary Stues who can do no wrong. Oh, and that we have to actually be told that the Inquisitor Lord is in fact a punk bitch who only made a name for himself by handling low-scale, localized threats (I didn't know that alone got you a position as an Inquisitor Lord, how very interesting ADB), which is directly stated to make him incompetent at handling the situation. Just so that there is no doubt who (The Space Wolves) is meant to be in the right here.
The irony here: I would side with the Space Wolves. I think they were right, and the events that followed (Namely, the guardsmen not turning into Chaos-worshipping pedophiles) vindicates their opinion, but the book should have handled the two opposing viewpoints better, and in a far less biased fashion.
It didn't exactly make the Grey Knights look bad either, as it helped establish their motivations and a concious (whereas most other aspects of them are well established); it created a set of morals for the reader to ponder themselves, as with the Wolves.
I agree, but the text seems to imply that the Wolf point of view is the "right" one, which is supported by Space Wolves basically curbing GK ass all day.
All the while, it stuck with the generally established events of Armageddon (but elaborated upon) and the general character of the Wolves.
If by, "stuck with", you mean "shoehorned the Grey Knights into a confrontation they originally played no part in", then I'd agree.
I also believe your points re: Hyperion should probably be spoiler-tagged.
Probably.
Spoiler:
We probably are supposed to see the Wolves as correct; they did afterall follow what appears to be the most morally virtuous route.
As for their casualties - I don't have the book to hand, so can't be detailed or even sure with what I say - but were they not losing ships and men to GK and Inquisitorial ambushes? I think the Wolves clearly suffered casualties and were pretty battered and stretched by the time the Inq. reached Fenris, it may not have been so obvious because of the very nature of a cold war, but they lost men all the same. But also, maybe it was also supposed to show how much worse it could have been...
I mean, they lost guys in the fighting and cold war afterwards, but maybe it was supposed to show that they didn't lose nearly as many as they could have.
As for the GK being "emo" and disliking their actions whilst respecting the Wolves, why shouldn't they? It seems perfectly reasonable to me, and the Space Wolves did give the GK some respect - just not for their actions - particularly in their fighting prowess, as I recall.
The GKs aren't robots, they (contrary of what the 5th codex could make you think) aren't so heartless and they certainly didn't enjoy killing civilians. They simply follow orders, orders from the Big I, and they're like super-loyal to everything that is connected to the Emprah. But they have conscience as well, so I personally don't see the point why they couldn't think they're wrong in a X situation. Yeah, the book was pretty unbalanced. Yeah the Wolves care very much about civilians (like the Salamanders), but they aren't certainly perfect or "untainted". As much as I love 'em, maybe ADB should have made 'em more... uh... dunno, rough? I dunno really. GK, again, are better than normal marine. It's obvious, they're all psyker and yadda yadda yadda BUT Logan Grimnar certainly isn't so famous, praised (from the Civilians, at least) and feared from his enemies for nothing. I think he could easily stand normal or terminators grey knight. If he can stand a GK grand master, however, is another whole thing. Maybe one day we'll see.
SW suffered many casualties, actually. In fact Logan attacked the GK master ship 'cause after they helped evacuate the Civilians under the Inquisitor nose, the Inquisitorial fleet shot on the SW's one, destroying and killing.
A Warhound titan weighs in at 410 tons or 820,000 lbs ~IA3. Which means that each leg would need to be able to exert greater force then that for the machine to be able to walk and more when it runs. The idea of a Primarch catching one of those legs mid stomp and unprepared is WTF.
Its ment to be a moment when we can go "Oh wow look how strong Angron is". But really is just a case of an author not having anything good to say and substituting in epicness instead. What's next??? Finding out that one of Ferrus Manus' hobbies included juggling baneblades.
DarthMarko wrote: Only in fightning deamons...rest is debateable...VERY....
And according to EG hmmmm....Nope
But they have more modern equpiment (read: 3 megapixel camera in their helms, and the "force " sticks), but waaaaait chapters have pre-heresy era EPIC stuff....
It's not even kind of debatable.
In gameplay? Both 3rd and 5th edition codices portray them as superior one on one to a normal Marine.
In fluff?
"The most advanced psychosurgery and bioengineering is used to condition the aspirants into the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines.'
- Daemonhunters codex, page 6
"To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight - an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above the common run of humanity.
- Grey Knights codex, page 27
As for the Emperor's Gift, it is not, in fact, the definitive tome on the Grey Knights. Nor does it actually portray them as what you speak.
Also, Grey Knights explicitly have better technology at their disposal than the Space Marines.
Every Grey Knight is at least a fairly powerful psyker, as well as an extensively-trained Space Marine. Better.
A Warhound titan weighs in at 410 tons or 820,000 lbs ~IA3. Which means that each leg would need to be able to exert greater force then that for the machine to be able to walk and more when it runs. The idea of a Primarch catching one of those legs mid stomp and unprepared is WTF.
Its ment to be a moment when we can go "Oh wow look how strong Angron is". But really is just a case of an author not having anything good to say and substituting in epicness instead. What's next??? Finding out that one of Ferrus Manus' hobbies included juggling baneblades.
It falls in line with previously established Primarch prowess, to be blunt. Remember False Gods, when Angron, after being buried under "thousands of tons" (Actual description) of rock by a bomb, exploded out of it with enough force to make Loken and friends think another bomb went off? Yeah.
Powerful characters does not make the writing bad. Superman is more powerful than any Primarch, but stories like All Star Superman or Kingdom Come are superior to at least the vast bulk of 40k fluff.
We probably are supposed to see the Wolves as correct; they did afterall follow what appears to be the most morally virtuous route.
As for their casualties - I don't have the book to hand, so can't be detailed or even sure with what I say - but were they not losing ships and men to GK and Inquisitorial ambushes? I think the Wolves clearly suffered casualties and were pretty battered and stretched by the time the Inq. reached Fenris, it may not have been so obvious because of the very nature of a cold war, but they lost men all the same. But also, maybe it was also supposed to show how much worse it could have been...
I mean, they lost guys in the fighting and cold war afterwards, but maybe it was supposed to show that they didn't lose nearly as many as they could have.
As for the GK being "emo" and disliking their actions whilst respecting the Wolves, why shouldn't they? It seems perfectly reasonable to me, and the Space Wolves did give the GK some respect - just not for their actions - particularly in their fighting prowess, as I recall.
Spoiler:
See, the actual codex fluff in this case went a more "impartial" route, different codices portraying the events in different lights, which kept an appropriately grimdark level of moral ambiguity. Were the Space Wolves justified in their actions, or were their actions rash, and resulting in more casualties than there would have been had they relented? But in the Emperor's Gift, while the notion is brought up, it is only in a way meant to highlight Hyperion and company's Inquisition-indoctrinated behavior, Hyperion impotently raging as Logan Grimnar beats him up.
In a few ambushes, they did indeed, which is the same for Grey Knights and Inquisition forces. But the GK/Inquisition side lost actual high-profile, relevant individuals (From an in-universe standpoint, the difference might seem arbitrary, but in a meta sense, this is much more important. A million is a statistic, who the feth gives a gak about a fictional statistic?). A Grey Knight Grand Master. An Inquisitor Lord.
The book was heavily Space Wolf biased. The leader of the Inquisition is explicitly an incompetent buffoon, so much so that there are individuals within his own faction plotting to assassinate him. The Grey Knight Grand Master is a dishonorable bastard meant to be hated. Hyperion is portrayed as well-meaning, but ultimately naïve. Annika Jarlsdottyr/Mary Sue bitch worst character ADB has ever written, never suffers any real retribution for her treasonous actions, giving the impression that betraying people who considered her a friend was in fact the "right" option. Oh, and of course she is then authorized to speak to the Space Wolves on behalf of the entire Inquisition. A traitor. The Space Wolf side? Has none of that baggage, and as such gives the impression that they are far more like, super righteous bros. Oh, and of course, it is Hyperion, a Grey Knight, who has to be taken to the Fang to spill all the secrets and gak of the Grey Knights. As if we didn't need more evidence of the book being heavily Space Wolf biased.
The Space Wolves gave the Grey Knights respect until the GK started to disagree with them. After that? Hyperion, the man who risked his life in battle against Angron and managed to break the Black Sword, is an honorless whoreson in the eyes of Logan and pals. Hyperion and friends having some guilt of warring with fellow Space Marines is not bad at all, but because the Space Wolves don't, and with all the other evidence in mind, it is but another hint that the book was pro-SW.
Really, the book just continued to confirm what I already have always kind of believed: That the Space Wolves are able to get away with more than almost any other chapter. Maybe more than all of them. The universe bends to accommodate their will.
A Warhound titan weighs in at 410 tons or 820,000 lbs ~IA3. Which means that each leg would need to be able to exert greater force then that for the machine to be able to walk and more when it runs. The idea of a Primarch catching one of those legs mid stomp and unprepared is WTF.
Its ment to be a moment when we can go "Oh wow look how strong Angron is". But really is just a case of an author not having anything good to say and substituting in epicness instead. What's next??? Finding out that one of Ferrus Manus' hobbies included juggling baneblades.
But imagine the drooling teenagers, o Angron surived a titan stomping (fully backed by Lorgar) and defeated him one on one in a rarrrgh moment...Only a primach could ever defeat another primarch LOL...
Ooo and don't forget deamon primarchs are even more then regular primarchs, they can only be killed (banished) by another deamon primarchs or some random GK...
The Primarches are demi-gods. How stupid would it look with Angron and Lorgar having a cig. Then comes a Warhound Titan and flattens them. Wouldn't that diminish their prowess to a great deal?
Personally I hate the dark Angels and their pprimarch "the lion"
The guy just has such a duplicous nature. Nothing that comes out of his mouth is truly sincere. Look at the situation which he gave perturbo the giant seige engines which were used against Terra. Either hes a stupid ass who is a awful judge of character, or a schemeing dick who knew what he was doing.
Beaviz81 wrote: The Primarches are demi-gods. How stupid would it look with Angron and Lorgar having a cig. Then comes a Warhound Titan and flattens them. Wouldn't that diminish their prowess to a great deal?
Nope, it would actually make them more plausible...If they can go down by a shot in the face (Fulgrim vs sniper , Magnus vs Ragnar), they can go by a titan stomping on them....simple
I'm just glad that psy Lorgar was in the story...If it was just Angron I would burn the book....
But Primarches ain't plausible they are living gods. They are only human in form, and unfortunately in their psyche. And even so try stomping on cockroaches. They just wont die, the Titan experienced the same thing with Angron. Be glad he didn't wield it as a weapon against another Titan. That would be sort of funny. Making a small model of Angron wielding a Warhound in Epic scale using it as a weapon and bitch-slapping a larger titan with it.
The only reason the Ravenguard's sniper rifle did as much damage as it did was because the needle was coated in poisons that could overpower even the resistance to injury and healing factor of a Primarch. This is ignoring the fact that the needle failed to penetrate Fulgrim's skull. As per usual, Marko omits context for his own agenda.
As for Ragnar, I haven't read the Space Wolf books to any great extent, but then those books are bad, who cares what they say?
Vulkan survived a city-decimating (As per Angel Exterminatus' words) macron cannon to the face. Magnus, who could destroy lines of tanks with his sorcery, kill hundreds of Space Wolves with a glance, and was destroying Tizca with a great earthquake, found Leman Russ much more difficult to injure. Konrad Curze survived a plummet through Nostramo's crust and crawled out (Originates in the Index Astartes article, confirmed by the Dark King).
Oh hey look I have three examples to Marko's out of context two. How very interesting.
Shouldn't you read a book before saying it is bad? I mean critics for unknown reason gave The Murder of Jesse James by Bob Ford a dicethrow six. Those critics clearly were on drugs. Dicethrow one. I don't go what so-called critics say, they are often paid to give good reviews to horrible stuff like that and Justin Bieber.
Void__Dragon wrote: It falls in line with previously established Primarch prowess, to be blunt. Remember False Gods, when Angron, after being buried under "thousands of tons" (Actual description) of rock by a bomb, exploded out of it with enough force to make Loken and friends think another bomb went off? Yeah.
Powerful characters does not make the writing bad. Superman is more powerful than any Primarch, but stories like All Star Superman or Kingdom Come are superior to at least the vast bulk of 40k fluff.
Powerful characters don't make for bad writing. Its when you have uninspired writing with "Epic" moments. It takes away from the epic moments and lowers the overall expirence. In the attempt to save Angron, Lorgar does some really believable extra powerful epic stuff. Things that make you "Damb! look at Lorgar go, you can't consider him the identifable weakest Primarch anymore". Then Angron climbs out of the ground and saves Lorgar. But instead of creating a scene where Angron (In full control) acts Primarch like and saves Lorgar through skill/reasoning. Angron instead shows he is WTF ridiculous strong.
Its like when at one point in the story Kharn musses about how he has not had the nails as long as some. Then later remembers what Angron had told him before he became one of the first to get the nails. Its a place where theWorld Eaters should have lost but instead of a clever way to get out of it. ADB saves them WTF moments instead.
Void__Dragon wrote: Really, the book just continued to confirm what I already have always kind of believed: That the Space Wolves are able to get away with more than almost any other chapter. Maybe more than all of them. The universe bends to accommodate their will
Its true. The SWs get away with more then anyother chapter. They also get to be a special snowflake. Most of that however is because when you get high enough up the chain of command you will find people who believe that it is better to keep the Wolves as allies. No one wants an enemy with that much plot armor.
Spoiler:
You are incorrect on one point. Bjorn, still showed Hyperion respect and Rawthroat still jokes with him when the "Wolves surrender". Even if he calls him a warlock.
What do you guys expect from Primarches? Them being a bunch of pansies? I mean they are supposed to do things that are ridiculously over the top. That's how powerful Primarches are. Mind you they are guys that can be hit with megaton nukes and still shrug it off. I'm only glad they are pictured as being clothed, as they must feel even their armour must feel like dressing in spiderweb.
Void__Dragon wrote: The only reason the Ravenguard's sniper rifle did as much damage as it did was because the needle was coated in poisons that could overpower even the resistance to injury and healing factor of a Primarch. This is ignoring the fact that the needle failed to penetrate Fulgrim's skull. As per usual, Marko omits context for his own agenda.
Yes, and needle sniper (who missed the eye IIRC) isn't a shot in the face...???
And what freaking agenda ? That primarch aren't so invincible as you say?
As for Ragnar, I haven't read the Space Wolf books to any great extent, but then those books are bad, who cares what they say?
So you haven't read those books but you are claiming those books are bad ?
Mr. King is a bit more fantasy writer - yes, but beauty in his books are characters, which are IMHO 100000 better described (and portrayed) then in some Mcneill's and Abnett's work...
Also fluff is fluff, so your point " SW books ( which you didn't read ) are bad" is just another petty bias agains't SW....
Well, mostly because they kick Cyclop's arse all the time, so I can understand you...
Oh hey look I have three examples to Marko's out of context two. How very interesting.
O you ARE actually refering to "me as being out of context" ? LOL ... Check your posts BTW...
Also back in the days (WD), when Russ killed a titan, he was soooo MOCKED that there is a comic writen to celebrate rarrggghhh moment.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beaviz81 wrote: What do you guys expect from Primarches? Them being a bunch of pansies? I mean they are supposed to do things that are ridiculously over the top. That's how powerful Primarches are. Mind you they are guys that can be hit with megaton nukes and still shrug it off. I'm only glad they are pictured as being clothed, as they must feel even their armour must feel like dressing in spiderweb.
It's not the power, it's the story...Like @stonerhino nicely said....
Void__Dragon wrote: Really, the book just continued to confirm what I already have always kind of believed: That the Space Wolves are able to get away with more than almost any other chapter. Maybe more than all of them. The universe bends to accommodate their will
Its true. The SWs get away with more then anyother chapter. They also get to be a special snowflake. Most of that however is because when you get high enough up the chain of command you will find people who believe that it is better
Don't forget - if GK went against others of the famous big 4..... DA, BA, UM - the end result would be the same....probably.....plot armour is a bitch...
DarthMarko wrote: Yes, and needle sniper (who missed the eye IIRC) isn't a shot in the face...???
And what freaking agenda ? That primarch aren't so invincible as you say?
The needle hit him in the temple, where the needle was blunted by the obtuse angle, and failed to penetrate Fulgrim's skull.
And beyond that, Perturabo outright points out that they have both survived worse wounds than that, it was the very potent poison that was a problem.
Point out where I said they are invincible. Just not as weak as you say. And yes, that is indeed your agenda.
So you haven't read those books but you are claiming those books are bad ?
Read above, I addressed this in a post to Beavis.
Mr. King is a bit more fantasy writer - yes, but beauty in his books are characters, which are IMHO 100000 better described (and portrayed) then in some Mcneill's and Abnett's work...
Him being a Fantasy writer would not put me off. Calling Warhammer 40,000 Science Fiction is IMO a fallacy. It is a fantasy epic that happens to be set in space, the Horus Heresy is something of a Greek tragedy.
Also fluff is fluff, so your point " SW books ( which you didn't read ) are bad" is just another petty bias agains't SW....
Well no, had you used Prospero Burns for evidence, that would be fine.
Well, mostly because they kick Cyclop's arse all the time, so I can understand you...
So you believe Daemon Primarchs being treated like Saturday Morning cartoon villains who show up and are comically beaten regularly is quality writing eh?
Even before I ever read A Thousand Sons and became a fan of the Legion, I knew that was fething stupid. You're biased for the Space Wolves, so naturally you approve of it when they do it.
O you ARE actually refering to "me as being out of context" ? LOL ... Check your posts BTW...
I provide context. Vulkan was hit in the face by a Macron Cannon and survived. Fact. Konrad Curze climbed out from near the molten core of his planet. Fact. Leman Russ was able to withstand sorcery from Magnus far better than hundreds of Space Wolves did. Fact.
Also back in the days (WD), when Russ killed a titan, he was soooo MOCKED that there is a comic writen to celebrate rarrggghhh moment.....
That's cool I guess.
It is also a logical fallacy (Argumentum ad populum) but hey.
Don't forget - if GK went against others of the famous big 4..... DA, BA, UM - the end result would be the same....probably.....plot armour is a bitch...
And the writing would be just as bad there.
"Everyone else does it" is not an excuse, and I typically expect more even-handed writing from BL than the codices. Prospero Burns did not portray the Space Wolves as infallible, nor did A Thousand Sons for the Thousand Sons, or Fear to Tread for the Blood Angels, etc. The Emperor's Gift chose to give plot armour to the antagonistic faction, which is somehow worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stonerhino wrote: Powerful characters don't make for bad writing. Its when you have uninspired writing with "Epic" moments. It takes away from the epic moments and lowers the overall expirence. In the attempt to save Angron, Lorgar does some really believable extra powerful epic stuff. Things that make you "Damb! look at Lorgar go, you can't consider him the identifable weakest Primarch anymore". Then Angron climbs out of the ground and saves Lorgar. But instead of creating a scene where Angron (In full control) acts Primarch like and saves Lorgar through skill/reasoning. Angron instead shows he is WTF ridiculous strong.
Its like when at one point in the story Kharn musses about how he has not had the nails as long as some. Then later remembers what Angron had told him before he became one of the first to get the nails. Its a place where theWorld Eaters should have lost but instead of a clever way to get out of it. ADB saves them WTF moments instead.
Perhaps. You have me at an advantage considering I have yet to read Betrayer (Recently finished Fear to Tread, currently reading Angel Exterminatus, Betrayer is likely next), but a lot of people seemed to balk at the very idea of Angron even being that strong, when he was established as more than capable of such a feat in the second HH book, lol.
I've never been as enamored with ADB as everyone else seems to be. Abnett and McNeill are better IMO.
Its true. The SWs get away with more then anyother chapter. They also get to be a special snowflake. Most of that however is because when you get high enough up the chain of command you will find people who believe that it is better to keep the Wolves as allies. No one wants an enemy with that much plot armor.
Spoiler:
You are incorrect on one point. Bjorn, still showed Hyperion respect and Rawthroat still jokes with him when the "Wolves surrender". Even if he calls him a warlock.
Inorite, lol? The Ultramarines wish they had plot armour that thick.
Spoiler:
True, it was careless to forget Bjorn. I really like Bjorn's portrayal in just about everything he has been in. He's my favorite Space Wolf character.
They are the same faction that, on Ka'mais I belief, were fighting a losing battle against the Tyranids. Then the Necron Tomb World that was that planet's moon woke up, and routed the splinter fleet. The Tau made a huge, spectacular welcoming ceremony to the Necrons, and invited them to their alliance with open arms. Then the Necrons killed them.
It's almost like the Tau have anti-plot armour. Their hook is that they are naive and don't know the extent of the grimdark they live in.
So when all the horrible Grimdark appears on their doorstep, they get suckered in.
Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Chaos - is there an 'evil' faction that hasn't molested tau yet?
Have you got any examples of Tau winning?
I've only read books from other perspectives - such as the DE codex (iirc) and the ultramarines books. So they don't win much in those.
My least favorite Legions and their respective Primarchs are Thousand Sons and Space Wolves the reasons being DarthMarko and Void__Dragon and their arguments about said legions
The real reason behind their argument is that they both know in their hearts that the best Legion was the Emperor's Children
The real reason behind their argument is that they both know in their hearts that the best Legion was the Emperor's Children
Only if you discount the Night Lords I preferred Fulgrim as he was. Originally in the old fluff, Horus corrupted him by throwing him a 3 day glutton+narcotics party. Now it's spooky self possessing sword time.
Pre-heresy they were hands down the best legion - But IMO, they fell further than everyone else.
My most disliked legion? The Doom Warriors - purely for the battle cry of 'Doom Ye!' They need to cheer up.
Pilau Rice wrote: My least favorite Legions and their respective Primarchs are Thousand Sons and Space Wolves the reasons being DarthMarko and Void__Dragon and their arguments about said legions
Haha I can see your points there. I think the best argument is Void Dragon thinking he doesn't hate the Space Wolves. When he practically seethes with red-hot hatred. I wish I could hate Manchester United with that passion.
Umm, can I say something in Void Dragon's defense? (I just read all the thread now)
IIRC, in 'The Gildar Rift' by Sarah Cawldwell, a SW terminator is shown as being corrupted by Chaos, and part of the Red Corsairs Chapter. And if he was a terminator, who is usually from the 1st company (and most liable not to turn), then aren't your arguments that the SW are immune to chaos corruption, invalid?
Coz if you think otherwise, i'd like a proper explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, Pilau Rice, I agree with you- as the Emperor's Children are so pretty, and plus it's ironic that they turn traitor- due to the legion name.
Being resistant to Chaos doesn't mean immunity. I mean Space Wolves looses members to the Ruinous powers. They just have a higher resistance to turning. Plus the SW doesn't really have a structure like everyone else. 1st. company applies if you talk about any other chapter except the Space Wolves. I mean the SW has plenty of weaknesses, as they are noted hypocrites who denies psychic powers with Soup Nazi-voices. They are arrogant and a gang of Uthers from Merlin. That's your average Space Wolf for you.
Pilau Rice wrote: My least favorite Legions and their respective Primarchs are Thousand Sons and Space Wolves the reasons being DarthMarko and Void__Dragon and their arguments about said legions
The real reason behind their argument is that they both know in their hearts that the best Legion was the Emperor's Children
Actually, I think their debates are often very interesting.
As a "fluffer" (?) I like to learn every new thing I can.
If only those debates didn't disembogue in "my Legion have a "power sword" longer than yours!"
Pilau Rice wrote: My least favorite Legions and their respective Primarchs are Thousand Sons and Space Wolves the reasons being DarthMarko and Void__Dragon and their arguments about said legions
The real reason behind their argument is that they both know in their hearts that the best Legion was the Emperor's Children
Actually, I think their debates are often very interesting.
As a "fluffer" (?) I like to learn every new thing I can.
If only those debates didn't disembogue in "my Legion have a "power sword" longer than yours!"
I think that's very reasonable. Although, you'd probably want new information to be as objective as possible.
Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:Umm, can I say something in Void Dragon's defense? (I just read all the thread now)
IIRC, in 'The Gildar Rift' by Sarah Cawldwell, a SW terminator is shown as being corrupted by Chaos, and part of the Red Corsairs Chapter. And if he was a terminator, who is usually from the 1st company (and most liable not to turn), then aren't your arguments that the SW are immune to chaos corruption, invalid?
Coz if you think otherwise, i'd like a proper explanation.
I think that argument typically relies on the subjective distinction between being corrupted by Chaos (e.g. tentacles and stuff), turning to Chaos (i.e. supporting it), or turning renegade (i.e. simply away from the Imperium).
^I would actually prefer chaos corruption, then "backstabing their brothers" and "Feth Emp ; Huron, you are our man, approach"....
It would be 10 000 x more PLAUSIABLE (imo)....
What pisses me off really, when somebody writes(posts) something positive about the SW, then immidiatly cave trolls come to spit on that....
Funny thing, when I joined dakka I liked the TS ( I still enjoy Ahriman and his band of renegades, even more then the SW), but reading through petty hate spammed in every 2-3 post really made me loose my mind sometimes...
Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote: I was reading through Know No Fear, and I'm surprised to say, just how short Lorgar and his lads' devotion runs. I mean, they start boasting they're the most devoted Legion, and they just change suddenly-for the worst, IMO.
Coming back to the topic: I love the Thousand Sons, but tell you the truth, I have no love for Magnus, coz his pride damned a loyal legion.
I also don't like Lorgar, because 'Quoting Guilliman-he's a maggot, that should have been fed to Russ ', and the fact that he's a coward, and a brat who wants attention.
What about your views on the other legions
The heresy is Lorgar's fault. Not much more needs to be said.
I don't get the chiding the Space Wolves get either, but I at least respect they ain't always well-loved. Especially by the Thousand Sons-fans, but remember it seems like Empy wanted to use Magnus as a living battery on the Golden Throne as he seems like the least favorite son ever and the Legion was blessed with suck in so many ways that Magnus feared Empy might cull them.
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar is much things - but coward he isn't...Damn sure on that...
Also, Heresy fault could be attributed to many people, including the Emperor....
Lorgar started the corruption, Lorgar wrote the book that would lead to the Imperium being the craphole it is now, Lorgar's legion would be the foundation of one of the most organized (if small) groups of Chaos Space Marines. It is indeed Lorgar's fault.
Emperor made Lorgar (and the WB), negelected to tell him about "universal truth" and forced him and his sons to kneel before another legion....And they only worshiped him...See my point?
In sigilite audio
Spoiler:
Malcador tells that Lorgar is the only one who is worth saving
Check @Void dragons analogy Emperor < Burger king manager....
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar is much things - but coward he isn't...Damn sure on that...
Also, Heresy fault could be attributed to many people, including the Emperor....
Lorgar started the corruption, Lorgar wrote the book that would lead to the Imperium being the craphole it is now, Lorgar's legion would be the foundation of one of the most organized (if small) groups of Chaos Space Marines. It is indeed Lorgar's fault.
I think that if Empy instead of made 'em kneel to him and destroying the city the WB made for HIM, had simply a chat with him like
"Son, do you know all that gak about me being a God? Well, I don't really like it. So if you stop, I'd appreciate" the Heresy wouldn't ever began.
So, as much as I don't like Lorgar, maybe (maaaaaaaybe) it was Empy's fault.
DarthMarko wrote: Emperor made Lorgar (and the WB), negelected to tell him about "universal truth" and forced him and his sons to kneel before another legion....And they only worshiped him...See my point?
In sigilite audio
Spoiler:
Malcador tells that Lorgar is the only one who worth saving
Honestly I'd have Lorgar's brains blown out. Someone like him needed to believe in something, anything, and that kind of belief is dangerous to the Imperium's atheistic creed. Then discretely have the word bearers disappear into the Ultramarines like the two missing legions.
You must not forget Empy told Lorgar he was the ultimate man and being while kneeling to him while Guilliman eagerly torn down the city dedicated yo Empy.
PredaKhaine wrote: Have you got any examples of Tau winning?
I've only read books from other perspectives - such as the DE codex (iirc) and the ultramarines books. So they don't win much in those.
The Tau get saved by other factions on a regular basis. Its not so much that they win but never really lose. Even the Ziest campain when they do lose its only to effectively an entire chapter on one planet. (9 companies from 9 different chapters) And that's after sacking a Forge World then beating back the Imperial counter attack.
Democulas Gulf Campain = The IoM stalls and then gets pulled out to fight Tyranids.
Vs Hive Fleet Gorgon = A single cardre stays on a planet after the deffences are broken and end up sending the HIve Fleet running.
Vs Hive Fleet Gorgon 2 = A splinter of Gorgon breaks off and is about to attack another Tau world. The Necrons show up and smack the Tyranids down and harvest the Tau anyways. The Tau still lost the world but it prevented that part of the Hive Fleet to attack other worlds.
Vs Hive Fleet Gorgon 3 = The remains of the HIve Fleet reach another Tau world and this time they are save by part of the Democulas Gulf IoM forces that got lost in the warp.
Vs Hive Fleet ??? = Shadowsun, leads an attack that defeats the Hive Fleet splinter taking no losses.
The Tau's plot armor is better then the Ultras because the Ultramarines still have the fact that they are Astartes to fall back on. The Tau just have "Surprise! plot twists" to fall back on.
Beaviz81 wrote: Must people discuss the atrociously boring Tau here at this thread? There are lots of other threads for that.
Hey I think Chaos causes more interesting threats to the Imperium like the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons to be glossed over but you don't see me insulting it here.
Emotionally stunted children with the bodies of demigods in charge of tens of thousands of roid-raged psychotic genocidal maniacs who exist only to slavishly follow their every command.
Angron's probably the worst, he completely and utterly screwed his legion, not through well meaning if highly stupid pacts with devils or his hubristic folly but simply because "they did it to me, I'm doing it to everyone else". The War Hounds weren't exactly the most restrained bunch even before they started getting Butchers Nails hammered into their skulls, but Angron had turned them into absolute parodies of their former selves and treated their lives as worthless in his (admittedly Nails-driven) need to get into hand to hand combat (I think he's the only primarch who hasn't been depicted using a gun of some sort, I could be wrong). They would have been better off if he'd died in the mountains. If the Heresy hadn't happened it's likely Russ would have received "that call" again, he'd already censured Angron who learned...nothing whatsoever.
The War Hounds/World Eaters' pre-Heresy colour scheme is cool, though.
I agree with Fotherington-Thomas. Most of them are sociopaths, and those that aren't are just living in denial. They butcher entire species and destroy entire worlds, and they're proud of it.
', and the fact that he's a coward, and a brat who wants attention.
seriously Angron (world eaters) is my favorite beside Mortation deathguard and konrad Curze of the nightlords (come to think of it i only like those that turned on the E-man) 
In the novels they are actualy quite the badasses!
), glad to see that people are looking at both PoV....
is what you get.
up and do what they're told. the oly good thing about them is when Loken sucker punches, the more annoying than usuall for an 
