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DarthMarko wrote: And you comparision would only be valid if Angron went 1 on 1 with Hyperion and Logan was a deamon....Totally disergard the whole battle btw....JIZUZ
1 on 1 there isn't a SM that could rival Logan, except maybe Dante or Smurfgar so this isn't really a debate...
Spoiler:
Angron was butchering through dozens of Grey Knights with all the ease of a lawnmower fighting a field of grass. So what you are saying is that Logan not being a Daemon makes him immune to telekinetic power that can stop a blow capable of cleaving a Titan to pieces (Not an exaggeration, given ADB's portrayal of Angron in Betrayer and the fact that Daemon Angron is the size of one). Angron must weigh hundreds of thousands of tons, yet Hyperion blocked his blow, and shattered his Daemon sword. While the Grey Knights do have powers, like the Aegis, that counteract Daemons, their basic telekinesis isn't any more or less effective on Daemons or Space Marines.
That's speculation, and totally beside the point. Lorgar is a formidable opponent, but he doesn't have an established special snowflake immunity to psychic powers. If he did, it wouldn't be plot armour.
Also, there's this weird irony, you saying that Mephiston and Draigo don't count in your claim for being "witches"... And... Hyperion isn't? Hyperion is a tremendously powerful psyker, to the extent that he was considered powerful enough to become a Prognosticar, but was too rash to be allowed admittance.
Also, the thing with Logan is but one problem. The entire final third of the Emperor's Gift was devoted towards making the Space Wolves look good and the Grey Knights look like gak. In a Grey Knights book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/24 09:56:25
Angron vs Titan has a bit more then just Angron destroying one....To quote my brother Lux
Spoiler:
What happened was that Lorgar was use his telekenisis to dig down to Angron to save him, however in the midst of doing so a Ultramarines Warhound Titan came upon him. It aimed its main cannon into the hole that Lorgar was digging in, and fired a Plasma cannon charge at him of which Lorgar used his psychic powers to block and protect himself as well as a 5 foot radius around him. The Titan than shot a second plasma cannon charge at Lorgar, which this time charred Lorgar and burned nearly every inch of his skin leaving him in a near death state.
The titan's core was exhausted after the second plasma cannon charge thus the captain said to crush lorgar by stepping on him, right before the Titans clawed foot landed on Lorgar Angron emerged and put himself between lorgar and the foot. It specifically states that every sinew in Angron's body was snapping and breaking, and that his spine even for a primarch was being crushed.
Angron never once lifted the Titans foot or pushed it back, in fact if the World Eaters Titan had not shown up both Lorgar and Angron would have died. Even with Lorgar adding the last of Psychic might to Angron's strength, Angron was still in the processing of being crushed.
So where people get this idea that Angron lifted a Titan I have no idea, he merely slowed the descent of its foot from crushing Lorgar and would himself had died if not for being rescued.
But I don't see the point - chapter masters are a badasses...they kick random GK any day of the week...I see it that way...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/24 09:53:04
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
It wasn't so much a case of ADB making the Wolves look good, as differing interpretations. Some people believe it made the Wolves look irresponsible and short-sighted, whilst others believe it did indeed make them look good.
It didn't exactly make the Grey Knights look bad either, as it helped establish their motivations and a concious (whereas most other aspects of them are well established); it created a set of morals for the reader to ponder themselves, as with the Wolves.
All the while, it stuck with the generally established events of Armageddon (but elaborated upon) and the general character of the Wolves.
I also believe your points re: Hyperion should probably be spoiler-tagged.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
But morals of the GK completely go into water, when "I" allowed rich and influential to go free...So disagree, this wasn't a pure act of "remove the contamination"....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: But morals of the GK completely go into water, when "I" allowed rich and influential to go free...So disagree, this wasn't a pure act of "remove the contamination"....
That wasn't the morals of the GK though; theirs were concerned with whether to follow "I" or not.
I also imagine your point re: Angron above should be spoiler-tagged; I haven't read Betrayer yet.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
DarthMarko wrote: But morals of the GK completely go into water, when "I" allowed rich and influential to go free...So disagree, this wasn't a pure act of "remove the contamination"....
That wasn't the morals of the GK though; theirs were concerned with whether to follow "I" or not.
I also imagine your point re: Angron above should be spoiler-tagged; I haven't read Betrayer yet.
Damn Somehow I knew you notice that - sorry Dave, I hope you didn't read it...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/24 09:53:40
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Just Dave wrote: It wasn't so much a case of ADB making the Wolves look good, as differing interpretations. Some people believe it made the Wolves look irresponsible and short-sighted, whilst others believe it did indeed make them look good.
I might be more inclined to believe that POV if the Wolves are really shown to suffer any of the consequences. I don't recall a Grey Knight beheading Logan Grimnar and killing several more of the Space Wolves before teleporting away unscathed.
Oh sure, you get a throwaway line from Bjorn about how "Not even Dr. Maguns the Red fethed Fenris up this bad!!!" but as far as I remember, most of that whole Fenris being fethed up thing came from Inquisitorial ships being destroyed in orbit (Basically, Wolves fethed themselves up), and most of the debris did nothing to the Fang.
So on the GK/Inquisition side...
We have a Lord Inquisitor, a Grey Knight Grand Master, and multiple ranking Grey Knights killed by Space Wolves.
On Space Wolf side, we have... Who of note? No one I recall. Not even the Inquisitor (the worst character in the book) who betrayed her organization and her comrades, aiding Logan and friends in trying to kill people she has known for years at that point (Might have time frame a bit confused). Her getting off scott-free confirms, in my opinion, that we are meant to see the Space Wolves as "correct". It doesn't help that the whole book, we see the Grey Knights being generally emo and hating themselves over what they are doing, thinking the Wolves might indeed be right, praising the Space Wolves, while the Wolves do none of the same in return. The last third turned the Space Wolves into Gary Stues who can do no wrong. Oh, and that we have to actually be told that the Inquisitor Lord is in fact a punk bitch who only made a name for himself by handling low-scale, localized threats (I didn't know that alone got you a position as an Inquisitor Lord, how very interesting ADB), which is directly stated to make him incompetent at handling the situation. Just so that there is no doubt who (The Space Wolves) is meant to be in the right here.
The irony here: I would side with the Space Wolves. I think they were right, and the events that followed (Namely, the guardsmen not turning into Chaos-worshipping pedophiles) vindicates their opinion, but the book should have handled the two opposing viewpoints better, and in a far less biased fashion.
It didn't exactly make the Grey Knights look bad either, as it helped establish their motivations and a concious (whereas most other aspects of them are well established); it created a set of morals for the reader to ponder themselves, as with the Wolves.
I agree, but the text seems to imply that the Wolf point of view is the "right" one, which is supported by Space Wolves basically curbing GK ass all day.
All the while, it stuck with the generally established events of Armageddon (but elaborated upon) and the general character of the Wolves.
If by, "stuck with", you mean "shoehorned the Grey Knights into a confrontation they originally played no part in", then I'd agree.
I also believe your points re: Hyperion should probably be spoiler-tagged.
Probably.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: Angron vs Titan has a bit more then just Angron destroying one....To quote my brother Lux
Spoiler:
What happened was that Lorgar was use his telekenisis to dig down to Angron to save him, however in the midst of doing so a Ultramarines Warhound Titan came upon him. It aimed its main cannon into the hole that Lorgar was digging in, and fired a Plasma cannon charge at him of which Lorgar used his psychic powers to block and protect himself as well as a 5 foot radius around him. The Titan than shot a second plasma cannon charge at Lorgar, which this time charred Lorgar and burned nearly every inch of his skin leaving him in a near death state.
The titan's core was exhausted after the second plasma cannon charge thus the captain said to crush lorgar by stepping on him, right before the Titans clawed foot landed on Lorgar Angron emerged and put himself between lorgar and the foot. It specifically states that every sinew in Angron's body was snapping and breaking, and that his spine even for a primarch was being crushed.
Angron never once lifted the Titans foot or pushed it back, in fact if the World Eaters Titan had not shown up both Lorgar and Angron would have died. Even with Lorgar adding the last of Psychic might to Angron's strength, Angron was still in the processing of being crushed.
So where people get this idea that Angron lifted a Titan I have no idea, he merely slowed the descent of its foot from crushing Lorgar and would himself had died if not for being rescued.
But I don't see the point - chapter masters are a badasses...they kick random GK any day of the week...I see it that way...
I haven't actually read Betrayer, people just like spoiling gak for me, but BlaxicanX says you are like, super wrong dude.
Hyperion is not a random Grey Knight.
Grey Knights are better than normal Space Marines on average. This is not a debatable point.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/24 09:59:48
Grey Knights are better than normal Space Marines on average. This is not a debatable point.
Only in fightning deamons...rest is debateable...VERY....
And according to EG hmmmm....Nope
But they have more modern equpiment (read: 3 megapixel camera in their helms, and the "force " sticks), but waaaaait chapters have pre-heresy era EPIC stuff....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/24 10:53:28
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Grey Knights are better than normal Space Marines on average. This is not a debatable point.
Only in fightning deamons...rest is debateable...VERY....
And according to EG hmmmm....Nope
But they have more modern equpiment (read: 3 megapixel camera in their helms, and the "force " sticks), but waaaaait chapters have pre-heresy era EPIC stuff....
Each one of them is psychic: they're better than a normal Space Marine.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Spoiler:
Just Dave wrote: It wasn't so much a case of ADB making the Wolves look good, as differing interpretations. Some people believe it made the Wolves look irresponsible and short-sighted, whilst others believe it did indeed make them look good.
I might be more inclined to believe that POV if the Wolves are really shown to suffer any of the consequences. I don't recall a Grey Knight beheading Logan Grimnar and killing several more of the Space Wolves before teleporting away unscathed.
Oh sure, you get a throwaway line from Bjorn about how "Not even Dr. Maguns the Red fethed Fenris up this bad!!!" but as far as I remember, most of that whole Fenris being fethed up thing came from Inquisitorial ships being destroyed in orbit (Basically, Wolves fethed themselves up), and most of the debris did nothing to the Fang.
So on the GK/Inquisition side...
We have a Lord Inquisitor, a Grey Knight Grand Master, and multiple ranking Grey Knights killed by Space Wolves.
On Space Wolf side, we have... Who of note? No one I recall. Not even the Inquisitor (the worst character in the book) who betrayed her organization and her comrades, aiding Logan and friends in trying to kill people she has known for years at that point (Might have time frame a bit confused). Her getting off scott-free confirms, in my opinion, that we are meant to see the Space Wolves as "correct". It doesn't help that the whole book, we see the Grey Knights being generally emo and hating themselves over what they are doing, thinking the Wolves might indeed be right, praising the Space Wolves, while the Wolves do none of the same in return. The last third turned the Space Wolves into Gary Stues who can do no wrong. Oh, and that we have to actually be told that the Inquisitor Lord is in fact a punk bitch who only made a name for himself by handling low-scale, localized threats (I didn't know that alone got you a position as an Inquisitor Lord, how very interesting ADB), which is directly stated to make him incompetent at handling the situation. Just so that there is no doubt who (The Space Wolves) is meant to be in the right here.
The irony here: I would side with the Space Wolves. I think they were right, and the events that followed (Namely, the guardsmen not turning into Chaos-worshipping pedophiles) vindicates their opinion, but the book should have handled the two opposing viewpoints better, and in a far less biased fashion.
It didn't exactly make the Grey Knights look bad either, as it helped establish their motivations and a concious (whereas most other aspects of them are well established); it created a set of morals for the reader to ponder themselves, as with the Wolves.
I agree, but the text seems to imply that the Wolf point of view is the "right" one, which is supported by Space Wolves basically curbing GK ass all day.
All the while, it stuck with the generally established events of Armageddon (but elaborated upon) and the general character of the Wolves.
If by, "stuck with", you mean "shoehorned the Grey Knights into a confrontation they originally played no part in", then I'd agree.
I also believe your points re: Hyperion should probably be spoiler-tagged.
Probably.
Spoiler:
We probably are supposed to see the Wolves as correct; they did afterall follow what appears to be the most morally virtuous route.
As for their casualties - I don't have the book to hand, so can't be detailed or even sure with what I say - but were they not losing ships and men to GK and Inquisitorial ambushes? I think the Wolves clearly suffered casualties and were pretty battered and stretched by the time the Inq. reached Fenris, it may not have been so obvious because of the very nature of a cold war, but they lost men all the same. But also, maybe it was also supposed to show how much worse it could have been...
I mean, they lost guys in the fighting and cold war afterwards, but maybe it was supposed to show that they didn't lose nearly as many as they could have.
As for the GK being "emo" and disliking their actions whilst respecting the Wolves, why shouldn't they? It seems perfectly reasonable to me, and the Space Wolves did give the GK some respect - just not for their actions - particularly in their fighting prowess, as I recall.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
The GKs aren't robots, they (contrary of what the 5th codex could make you think) aren't so heartless and they certainly didn't enjoy killing civilians. They simply follow orders, orders from the Big I, and they're like super-loyal to everything that is connected to the Emprah. But they have conscience as well, so I personally don't see the point why they couldn't think they're wrong in a X situation. Yeah, the book was pretty unbalanced. Yeah the Wolves care very much about civilians (like the Salamanders), but they aren't certainly perfect or "untainted". As much as I love 'em, maybe ADB should have made 'em more... uh... dunno, rough? I dunno really. GK, again, are better than normal marine. It's obvious, they're all psyker and yadda yadda yadda BUT Logan Grimnar certainly isn't so famous, praised (from the Civilians, at least) and feared from his enemies for nothing. I think he could easily stand normal or terminators grey knight. If he can stand a GK grand master, however, is another whole thing. Maybe one day we'll see.
SW suffered many casualties, actually. In fact Logan attacked the GK master ship 'cause after they helped evacuate the Civilians under the Inquisitor nose, the Inquisitorial fleet shot on the SW's one, destroying and killing.
So, yes, SW didn't go away unscratched.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/24 16:07:38
The wolves are back! *feral howl* "Si vis pacem para bellum"
A Warhound titan weighs in at 410 tons or 820,000 lbs ~IA3. Which means that each leg would need to be able to exert greater force then that for the machine to be able to walk and more when it runs. The idea of a Primarch catching one of those legs mid stomp and unprepared is WTF.
Its ment to be a moment when we can go "Oh wow look how strong Angron is". But really is just a case of an author not having anything good to say and substituting in epicness instead. What's next??? Finding out that one of Ferrus Manus' hobbies included juggling baneblades.
DarthMarko wrote: Only in fightning deamons...rest is debateable...VERY....
And according to EG hmmmm....Nope
But they have more modern equpiment (read: 3 megapixel camera in their helms, and the "force " sticks), but waaaaait chapters have pre-heresy era EPIC stuff....
It's not even kind of debatable.
In gameplay? Both 3rd and 5th edition codices portray them as superior one on one to a normal Marine.
In fluff?
"The most advanced psychosurgery and bioengineering is used to condition the aspirants into the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines.'
- Daemonhunters codex, page 6
"To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight - an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above the common run of humanity.
- Grey Knights codex, page 27
As for the Emperor's Gift, it is not, in fact, the definitive tome on the Grey Knights. Nor does it actually portray them as what you speak.
Also, Grey Knights explicitly have better technology at their disposal than the Space Marines.
Every Grey Knight is at least a fairly powerful psyker, as well as an extensively-trained Space Marine. Better.
A Warhound titan weighs in at 410 tons or 820,000 lbs ~IA3. Which means that each leg would need to be able to exert greater force then that for the machine to be able to walk and more when it runs. The idea of a Primarch catching one of those legs mid stomp and unprepared is WTF.
Its ment to be a moment when we can go "Oh wow look how strong Angron is". But really is just a case of an author not having anything good to say and substituting in epicness instead. What's next??? Finding out that one of Ferrus Manus' hobbies included juggling baneblades.
It falls in line with previously established Primarch prowess, to be blunt. Remember False Gods, when Angron, after being buried under "thousands of tons" (Actual description) of rock by a bomb, exploded out of it with enough force to make Loken and friends think another bomb went off? Yeah.
Powerful characters does not make the writing bad. Superman is more powerful than any Primarch, but stories like All Star Superman or Kingdom Come are superior to at least the vast bulk of 40k fluff.
We probably are supposed to see the Wolves as correct; they did afterall follow what appears to be the most morally virtuous route.
As for their casualties - I don't have the book to hand, so can't be detailed or even sure with what I say - but were they not losing ships and men to GK and Inquisitorial ambushes? I think the Wolves clearly suffered casualties and were pretty battered and stretched by the time the Inq. reached Fenris, it may not have been so obvious because of the very nature of a cold war, but they lost men all the same. But also, maybe it was also supposed to show how much worse it could have been...
I mean, they lost guys in the fighting and cold war afterwards, but maybe it was supposed to show that they didn't lose nearly as many as they could have.
As for the GK being "emo" and disliking their actions whilst respecting the Wolves, why shouldn't they? It seems perfectly reasonable to me, and the Space Wolves did give the GK some respect - just not for their actions - particularly in their fighting prowess, as I recall.
Spoiler:
See, the actual codex fluff in this case went a more "impartial" route, different codices portraying the events in different lights, which kept an appropriately grimdark level of moral ambiguity. Were the Space Wolves justified in their actions, or were their actions rash, and resulting in more casualties than there would have been had they relented? But in the Emperor's Gift, while the notion is brought up, it is only in a way meant to highlight Hyperion and company's Inquisition-indoctrinated behavior, Hyperion impotently raging as Logan Grimnar beats him up.
In a few ambushes, they did indeed, which is the same for Grey Knights and Inquisition forces. But the GK/Inquisition side lost actual high-profile, relevant individuals (From an in-universe standpoint, the difference might seem arbitrary, but in a meta sense, this is much more important. A million is a statistic, who the feth gives a gak about a fictional statistic?). A Grey Knight Grand Master. An Inquisitor Lord.
The book was heavily Space Wolf biased. The leader of the Inquisition is explicitly an incompetent buffoon, so much so that there are individuals within his own faction plotting to assassinate him. The Grey Knight Grand Master is a dishonorable bastard meant to be hated. Hyperion is portrayed as well-meaning, but ultimately naïve. Annika Jarlsdottyr/Mary Sue bitch worst character ADB has ever written, never suffers any real retribution for her treasonous actions, giving the impression that betraying people who considered her a friend was in fact the "right" option. Oh, and of course she is then authorized to speak to the Space Wolves on behalf of the entire Inquisition. A traitor. The Space Wolf side? Has none of that baggage, and as such gives the impression that they are far more like, super righteous bros. Oh, and of course, it is Hyperion, a Grey Knight, who has to be taken to the Fang to spill all the secrets and gak of the Grey Knights. As if we didn't need more evidence of the book being heavily Space Wolf biased.
The Space Wolves gave the Grey Knights respect until the GK started to disagree with them. After that? Hyperion, the man who risked his life in battle against Angron and managed to break the Black Sword, is an honorless whoreson in the eyes of Logan and pals. Hyperion and friends having some guilt of warring with fellow Space Marines is not bad at all, but because the Space Wolves don't, and with all the other evidence in mind, it is but another hint that the book was pro-SW.
Really, the book just continued to confirm what I already have always kind of believed: That the Space Wolves are able to get away with more than almost any other chapter. Maybe more than all of them. The universe bends to accommodate their will.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/25 08:28:44
A Warhound titan weighs in at 410 tons or 820,000 lbs ~IA3. Which means that each leg would need to be able to exert greater force then that for the machine to be able to walk and more when it runs. The idea of a Primarch catching one of those legs mid stomp and unprepared is WTF.
Its ment to be a moment when we can go "Oh wow look how strong Angron is". But really is just a case of an author not having anything good to say and substituting in epicness instead. What's next??? Finding out that one of Ferrus Manus' hobbies included juggling baneblades.
But imagine the drooling teenagers, o Angron surived a titan stomping (fully backed by Lorgar) and defeated him one on one in a rarrrgh moment...Only a primach could ever defeat another primarch LOL...
Ooo and don't forget deamon primarchs are even more then regular primarchs, they can only be killed (banished) by another deamon primarchs or some random GK...
Nope, Fenris burned more then Cyclops had burned it ,but fact is they kicked the ****** out of GK and RH....Fact...
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/25 16:35:37
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
The Primarches are demi-gods. How stupid would it look with Angron and Lorgar having a cig. Then comes a Warhound Titan and flattens them. Wouldn't that diminish their prowess to a great deal?
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Personally I hate the dark Angels and their pprimarch "the lion"
The guy just has such a duplicous nature. Nothing that comes out of his mouth is truly sincere. Look at the situation which he gave perturbo the giant seige engines which were used against Terra. Either hes a stupid ass who is a awful judge of character, or a schemeing dick who knew what he was doing.
Beaviz81 wrote: The Primarches are demi-gods. How stupid would it look with Angron and Lorgar having a cig. Then comes a Warhound Titan and flattens them. Wouldn't that diminish their prowess to a great deal?
Nope, it would actually make them more plausible...If they can go down by a shot in the face (Fulgrim vs sniper , Magnus vs Ragnar), they can go by a titan stomping on them....simple
I'm just glad that psy Lorgar was in the story...If it was just Angron I would burn the book....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/25 16:42:24
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
But Primarches ain't plausible they are living gods. They are only human in form, and unfortunately in their psyche. And even so try stomping on cockroaches. They just wont die, the Titan experienced the same thing with Angron. Be glad he didn't wield it as a weapon against another Titan. That would be sort of funny. Making a small model of Angron wielding a Warhound in Epic scale using it as a weapon and bitch-slapping a larger titan with it.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
The only reason the Ravenguard's sniper rifle did as much damage as it did was because the needle was coated in poisons that could overpower even the resistance to injury and healing factor of a Primarch. This is ignoring the fact that the needle failed to penetrate Fulgrim's skull. As per usual, Marko omits context for his own agenda.
As for Ragnar, I haven't read the Space Wolf books to any great extent, but then those books are bad, who cares what they say?
Vulkan survived a city-decimating (As per Angel Exterminatus' words) macron cannon to the face. Magnus, who could destroy lines of tanks with his sorcery, kill hundreds of Space Wolves with a glance, and was destroying Tizca with a great earthquake, found Leman Russ much more difficult to injure. Konrad Curze survived a plummet through Nostramo's crust and crawled out (Originates in the Index Astartes article, confirmed by the Dark King).
Oh hey look I have three examples to Marko's out of context two. How very interesting.
Shouldn't you read a book before saying it is bad? I mean critics for unknown reason gave The Murder of Jesse James by Bob Ford a dicethrow six. Those critics clearly were on drugs. Dicethrow one. I don't go what so-called critics say, they are often paid to give good reviews to horrible stuff like that and Justin Bieber.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Void__Dragon wrote: It falls in line with previously established Primarch prowess, to be blunt. Remember False Gods, when Angron, after being buried under "thousands of tons" (Actual description) of rock by a bomb, exploded out of it with enough force to make Loken and friends think another bomb went off? Yeah.
Powerful characters does not make the writing bad. Superman is more powerful than any Primarch, but stories like All Star Superman or Kingdom Come are superior to at least the vast bulk of 40k fluff.
Powerful characters don't make for bad writing. Its when you have uninspired writing with "Epic" moments. It takes away from the epic moments and lowers the overall expirence. In the attempt to save Angron, Lorgar does some really believable extra powerful epic stuff. Things that make you "Damb! look at Lorgar go, you can't consider him the identifable weakest Primarch anymore". Then Angron climbs out of the ground and saves Lorgar. But instead of creating a scene where Angron (In full control) acts Primarch like and saves Lorgar through skill/reasoning. Angron instead shows he is WTF ridiculous strong.
Its like when at one point in the story Kharn musses about how he has not had the nails as long as some. Then later remembers what Angron had told him before he became one of the first to get the nails. Its a place where theWorld Eaters should have lost but instead of a clever way to get out of it. ADB saves them WTF moments instead.
Void__Dragon wrote: Really, the book just continued to confirm what I already have always kind of believed: That the Space Wolves are able to get away with more than almost any other chapter. Maybe more than all of them. The universe bends to accommodate their will
Its true. The SWs get away with more then anyother chapter. They also get to be a special snowflake. Most of that however is because when you get high enough up the chain of command you will find people who believe that it is better to keep the Wolves as allies. No one wants an enemy with that much plot armor.
Spoiler:
You are incorrect on one point. Bjorn, still showed Hyperion respect and Rawthroat still jokes with him when the "Wolves surrender". Even if he calls him a warlock.
What do you guys expect from Primarches? Them being a bunch of pansies? I mean they are supposed to do things that are ridiculously over the top. That's how powerful Primarches are. Mind you they are guys that can be hit with megaton nukes and still shrug it off. I'm only glad they are pictured as being clothed, as they must feel even their armour must feel like dressing in spiderweb.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Void__Dragon wrote: The only reason the Ravenguard's sniper rifle did as much damage as it did was because the needle was coated in poisons that could overpower even the resistance to injury and healing factor of a Primarch. This is ignoring the fact that the needle failed to penetrate Fulgrim's skull. As per usual, Marko omits context for his own agenda.
Yes, and needle sniper (who missed the eye IIRC) isn't a shot in the face...???
And what freaking agenda ? That primarch aren't so invincible as you say?
As for Ragnar, I haven't read the Space Wolf books to any great extent, but then those books are bad, who cares what they say?
So you haven't read those books but you are claiming those books are bad ?
Mr. King is a bit more fantasy writer - yes, but beauty in his books are characters, which are IMHO 100000 better described (and portrayed) then in some Mcneill's and Abnett's work...
Also fluff is fluff, so your point " SW books ( which you didn't read ) are bad" is just another petty bias agains't SW....
Well, mostly because they kick Cyclop's arse all the time, so I can understand you...
Oh hey look I have three examples to Marko's out of context two. How very interesting.
O you ARE actually refering to "me as being out of context" ? LOL ... Check your posts BTW...
Also back in the days (WD), when Russ killed a titan, he was soooo MOCKED that there is a comic writen to celebrate rarrggghhh moment.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beaviz81 wrote: What do you guys expect from Primarches? Them being a bunch of pansies? I mean they are supposed to do things that are ridiculously over the top. That's how powerful Primarches are. Mind you they are guys that can be hit with megaton nukes and still shrug it off. I'm only glad they are pictured as being clothed, as they must feel even their armour must feel like dressing in spiderweb.
It's not the power, it's the story...Like @stonerhino nicely said....
Void__Dragon wrote: Really, the book just continued to confirm what I already have always kind of believed: That the Space Wolves are able to get away with more than almost any other chapter. Maybe more than all of them. The universe bends to accommodate their will
Its true. The SWs get away with more then anyother chapter. They also get to be a special snowflake. Most of that however is because when you get high enough up the chain of command you will find people who believe that it is better
Don't forget - if GK went against others of the famous big 4..... DA, BA, UM - the end result would be the same....probably.....plot armour is a bitch...
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/04/25 22:30:48
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Yes, and needle sniper (who missed the eye IIRC) isn't a shot in the face...???
And what freaking agenda ? That primarch aren't so invincible as you say?
The needle hit him in the temple, where the needle was blunted by the obtuse angle, and failed to penetrate Fulgrim's skull.
And beyond that, Perturabo outright points out that they have both survived worse wounds than that, it was the very potent poison that was a problem.
Point out where I said they are invincible. Just not as weak as you say. And yes, that is indeed your agenda.
So you haven't read those books but you are claiming those books are bad ?
Read above, I addressed this in a post to Beavis.
Mr. King is a bit more fantasy writer - yes, but beauty in his books are characters, which are IMHO 100000 better described (and portrayed) then in some Mcneill's and Abnett's work...
Him being a Fantasy writer would not put me off. Calling Warhammer 40,000 Science Fiction is IMO a fallacy. It is a fantasy epic that happens to be set in space, the Horus Heresy is something of a Greek tragedy.
Also fluff is fluff, so your point " SW books ( which you didn't read ) are bad" is just another petty bias agains't SW....
Well no, had you used Prospero Burns for evidence, that would be fine.
Well, mostly because they kick Cyclop's arse all the time, so I can understand you...
So you believe Daemon Primarchs being treated like Saturday Morning cartoon villains who show up and are comically beaten regularly is quality writing eh?
Even before I ever read A Thousand Sons and became a fan of the Legion, I knew that was fething stupid. You're biased for the Space Wolves, so naturally you approve of it when they do it.
O you ARE actually refering to "me as being out of context" ? LOL ... Check your posts BTW...
I provide context. Vulkan was hit in the face by a Macron Cannon and survived. Fact. Konrad Curze climbed out from near the molten core of his planet. Fact. Leman Russ was able to withstand sorcery from Magnus far better than hundreds of Space Wolves did. Fact.
Also back in the days (WD), when Russ killed a titan, he was soooo MOCKED that there is a comic writen to celebrate rarrggghhh moment.....
That's cool I guess.
It is also a logical fallacy (Argumentum ad populum) but hey.
Don't forget - if GK went against others of the famous big 4..... DA, BA, UM - the end result would be the same....probably.....plot armour is a bitch...
And the writing would be just as bad there.
"Everyone else does it" is not an excuse, and I typically expect more even-handed writing from BL than the codices. Prospero Burns did not portray the Space Wolves as infallible, nor did A Thousand Sons for the Thousand Sons, or Fear to Tread for the Blood Angels, etc. The Emperor's Gift chose to give plot armour to the antagonistic faction, which is somehow worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stonerhino wrote: Powerful characters don't make for bad writing. Its when you have uninspired writing with "Epic" moments. It takes away from the epic moments and lowers the overall expirence. In the attempt to save Angron, Lorgar does some really believable extra powerful epic stuff. Things that make you "Damb! look at Lorgar go, you can't consider him the identifable weakest Primarch anymore". Then Angron climbs out of the ground and saves Lorgar. But instead of creating a scene where Angron (In full control) acts Primarch like and saves Lorgar through skill/reasoning. Angron instead shows he is WTF ridiculous strong.
Its like when at one point in the story Kharn musses about how he has not had the nails as long as some. Then later remembers what Angron had told him before he became one of the first to get the nails. Its a place where theWorld Eaters should have lost but instead of a clever way to get out of it. ADB saves them WTF moments instead.
Perhaps. You have me at an advantage considering I have yet to read Betrayer (Recently finished Fear to Tread, currently reading Angel Exterminatus, Betrayer is likely next), but a lot of people seemed to balk at the very idea of Angron even being that strong, when he was established as more than capable of such a feat in the second HH book, lol.
I've never been as enamored with ADB as everyone else seems to be. Abnett and McNeill are better IMO.
Its true. The SWs get away with more then anyother chapter. They also get to be a special snowflake. Most of that however is because when you get high enough up the chain of command you will find people who believe that it is better to keep the Wolves as allies. No one wants an enemy with that much plot armor.
Spoiler:
You are incorrect on one point. Bjorn, still showed Hyperion respect and Rawthroat still jokes with him when the "Wolves surrender". Even if he calls him a warlock.
Inorite, lol? The Ultramarines wish they had plot armour that thick.
Spoiler:
True, it was careless to forget Bjorn. I really like Bjorn's portrayal in just about everything he has been in. He's my favorite Space Wolf character.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/26 06:00:17
They are the same faction that, on Ka'mais I belief, were fighting a losing battle against the Tyranids. Then the Necron Tomb World that was that planet's moon woke up, and routed the splinter fleet. The Tau made a huge, spectacular welcoming ceremony to the Necrons, and invited them to their alliance with open arms. Then the Necrons killed them.
It's almost like the Tau have anti-plot armour. Their hook is that they are naive and don't know the extent of the grimdark they live in.
So when all the horrible Grimdark appears on their doorstep, they get suckered in.
Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Chaos - is there an 'evil' faction that hasn't molested tau yet?
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
Somehow I knew you notice that - sorry Dave, I hope you didn't read it...
How's Croatia? Hopefully not too many engraved U's at toilets and bus-stops 
o and don't forget strong indinan symbols which is also present...
The wolves are back! *feral howl* 
1500pt
2500pt 
