Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But it's just my impression or oh so many people hate Russ 'cause he attacked Prospero?
Ok, it wasn't a kind act, sure, but he was simply executing orders.
Big E. said "Go and bring Magnus' ass on Terra", and during the journey he was manipulated by Horus who disguised as the EMPRAH and ordered him to destroy Prospero.
Ok.
Yes, I agree, it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but heck, it wasn't entirely Russ fault.

Like Magnus himself said, Russ didn't do it with joy, heck he hated it, but he was the Emperor's hound, fiercely loyal to the Gold Guy.

Horus wasn't disguised as the Emperor, as I recall.

But yeah, Russ was just acting as he always acted. The loyal dog following the orders of his masters.

Magnus would have many less regrets could he have mastered that simple principle.

But then he wouldn't be Magnus.

Magnus was, IMO, designed to be the most scholarly brother, always seeking to understand everything. Leman Russ was good for winning wars, but terrible for building and preserving.

That is quite a biased appraisal. Russ built and preserved things for which Magnus had no taste and little understanding.

In fact, as SW always say, they're the WEAPON of the Imperium, they're born (or, more precisely, created) for destroy the enemies of the Imperium, not for re-/building.

 Manchu wrote:
That is quite a biased appraisal. Russ built and preserved things for which Magnus had no taste and little understanding.

What did he build and preserve?

Like, seriously, tell me. Give me an example.

You are talking about the man who said outright he is fine with only ruins being left in their wake.

The culture and traditions of the SW, which Magnus dismissed as bestial ignorance.

Show me.

Also, you're sort of sidestepping the point entirely.

Russ maintained his own culture. Okay. No one said he didn't.

But he didn't aid in building the Imperium, or preserving the knowledge that conquered cultures may have.

Well The Lion is still alive. Just saying...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

What did he build and preserve?

Like, seriously, tell me. Give me an example.

You are talking about the man who said outright he is fine with only ruins being left in their wake.

This is, in fact, true. The SW see themselves as a weapon.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Show me.

I don't follow. You want a quote from Magnus that the SW are ignorant? Sorry, I don't have one ready. I'm relying on his attitude toward Russ and the SW regarding psychic powers.

 Manchu wrote:
The culture and traditions of the SW, which Magnus dismissed as bestial ignorance.

Wait, keepin' alive tradition like Allfather and yadda yadda yadda is one thing, build or re-build a planet/system is another thing.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
Wait, keepin' alive tradition like Allfather and yadda yadda yadda is one thing, build or re-build a planet/system is another thing.

I think this pretty much Magnus's opinion, too. Again -- don't have a supporting quotation at the ready, however.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't follow. You want a quote from Magnus that the SW are ignorant? Sorry, I don't have one ready. I'm relying on his attitude toward Russ and the SW regarding psychic powers.

Magnus said Leman Russ is deluded if he believes his Rune Priests are special snowflakes who don't use the Warp to use their powers.

He's entirely correct.

That said, I do now recall a line from First Heretic where he did look disparagingly down on Leman Russ's culture, albeit I can't recall one from A Thousand Sons.

 Manchu wrote:
I think this pretty much Magnus's opinion, too. Again -- don't have a supporting quotation at the ready, however.

And Magnus was indeed right, the Space Wolves ARE barbarian and CAN'T build a system like, for example, Ultramar.
And that's fine, 'cause this make them what they are.
If all the Legions and Primarchs were like Magnus and the 1K Sons then we wouldn't have any Loyal Chapter left.

And, IMHO, Wolves are better this way.
I love the whole Vikings... IN SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEESS look and culture.

@V__D: I was more thinking, Magnus seems to think there is only one way to properly access the Warp -- the Librarius program he developed with Khan and Sanguinius as practiced by the Thousand Sons. Russ and the SW have a totally different view of the Warp and psychic powers. Magnus (and you) basically say they're just flat out wrong. I think this is also why you seem to interpret the Edict of Nikaea as banning Sm psykers, which it does not.

 Manchu wrote:
Magnus (and you) basically say they're just flat out wrong. I think this is also why you seem to interpret the Edict of Nikaea as banning Sm psykers, which it does not.

Well the Edict of Nikaea banned sorceries... so, yeah, psykers are not the same things... but it depends on how someone looks at it.
For Russ Psykers were nothing but Sorceres, so not much difference for him

No, the Edict of Niakaea did two things only:

(1) disbanded Legion Librarius departments

(2) forbade former members of said departments from ever using psychic powers again

amudkipz wrote:
Petur- Pertar- Purtura-, The iron warriors primarch, he is really well written but i hate his character. His only reason for going to chaos is being bitter about Dorn's (who obviously wasn't the best socialite) opinion on the palace of Terra. He even admits he is wrong but he thinks that changing his mind makes him weak and stays the course to chaos.

Heh, he's my favourite because of just that. He made a decision and is sticking with it, regardless of the consequences. Also he beat the gak out of fulgrim, twice, and did the Joker's pencil trick.


If I had to name a worst and most hated.. Fulgrim and EC. I can't stand the guy, I fething hate Fabius Bile and the entire chapter seems to suffering from a mental condition that's censored on these boards. The only mildly interesting character in the EC is Lucius.

I was thinking about DA first, but actually, I don't hate them, I just think they are boring as gak.

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 Ilove40k wrote:
I just hate Russ even if I have a SW army the thing about: ``The sons of thunder are not psykers using the warp`` is just annoying !

I loved Leman Russ big time,.. but i am currently reading a thousand sons,.. and i just passed the part where Magnus and Leman Russ were at each others throats.

The fact that Leman Russ thinks lowly of psykers while he has them in his own army and like a naive little fool thinsk his psykers are not dangerous and Magnus's are because of a geneseed fault >.<

Also him blindly killing an entire world and losing knowledge in the process... something i expected of Angron,..not him...

Old point in the relative context of the thread, but... Wait until you read Prospero Burns before you judge - or make your mind up about - Russ: the differing viewpoints is a great part of the dualogy.

Yup, a lot of people have come to dislike Leman Russ cause of the confrontation between him and Magnus. Poor Russ.

Anyway, I'm done with packing! Will be leaving now, wil be seeing all you guys on the month of June! I mistakenly wrote May :-(. Anyway, good luck to all you guys!

^ Actually this thread pretty much goes against Magnus (and the @Void ), glad to see that people are looking at both PoV....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Soladrin wrote:

amudkipz wrote:
Petur- Pertar- Purtura-, The iron warriors primarch, he is really well written but i hate his character. His only reason for going to chaos is being bitter about Dorn's (who obviously wasn't the best socialite) opinion on the palace of Terra. He even admits he is wrong but he thinks that changing his mind makes him weak and stays the course to chaos.

Heh, he's my favourite because of just that. He made a decision and is sticking with it, regardless of the consequences. Also he beat the gak out of fulgrim, twice, and did the Joker's pencil trick.


If I had to name a worst and most hated.. Fulgrim and EC. I can't stand the guy, I fething hate Fabius Bile and the entire chapter seems to suffering from a mental condition that's censored on these boards. The only mildly interesting character in the EC is Lucius.

I was thinking about DA first, but actually, I don't hate them, I just think they are boring as gak.

,
But if Fulgrim had his sword.....hmm.....But yes, "joker pencil" is a nice analogy
+1

 Manchu wrote:
@V__D: I was more thinking, Magnus seems to think there is only one way to properly access the Warp -- the Librarius program he developed with Khan and Sanguinius as practiced by the Thousand Sons. Russ and the SW have a totally different view of the Warp and psychic powers. Magnus (and you) basically say they're just flat out wrong. I think this is also why you seem to interpret the Edict of Nikaea as banning Sm psykers, which it does not.

That's uh, not really true IMO, lol.

Magnus has no issue with the Rune Priests in of themselves, only the notion that they are fundamentally different than his Thousand Sons, when they do, in fact, draw on the same well of power.

Russ and the SW have a totally wrong view of the Warp, in that they don't believe it powers their abilities. Now, their practices using the Warp are safer than the Thousand Sons, largely due to forgoing Tutelaries, but they draw from the same well.

A lot of text goes into Thousand Sons believing that the Rune Priests and them are the same.

Ahriman: We are the same (To Othere Wyrdmake).

Now, the Thousand Sons aren't actually the same as the Rune Priests.

But the notion that they draw on the "natural life and death cycles of Fenris" isn't a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of the Space Wolves being plainly wrong, lol. Rune Priests use the Warp. This is a fact that can not be argued.

And doesn't it? The Emperor's reason for banning the Librarius department are to no longer allow the threat of sorcery to "taint" the Astartes, as per his words. Rune Priests can become sorcerers. To argue otherwise is fan spank. Now, you could argue that the Space Wolves did not do anything to justify the ban like Magnus did, and this is true. But it is also true that the other Librarians did nothing to justify it as well, yet they too were banned. That Magnus played a part in the creation of the department is frankly irrelevant, we don't see other Librarians making use of daemon familiars, or doing blood rites, because Magnus was kind of like a spoiled kid who doesn't want to share his neat toys. He kept what he viewed as the "better", more hipster training to his own Legion, thinking only they had the ability to put it into practice at the moment.

The Space Wolves exploited a loophole, even if they were not aware of it. They never had Librarians to disband, so they could keep their own psykers.

Oh, and I don't hate the Space Wolves, or their Primarch. I don't really have a hated Legion and Primarch.

There are a few I don't really [I[like[/I], such as Vulkan, the Khan, and their sons, but that is mostly because they have done nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
I've been saying this for ages. It's nice that someone else finally noticed. People always think of Dorn as really responsible, just buying into the image that the text tries but fails to sell. Because what Dorn actually does is insane. I am waiting for someone writing for BL to notice this, too, hopefully before writing a book about Dorn's post-HH standoff against Guilliman.

I actually missed this.

Yeah, Dorn is, when you think about it, the most subtly mentally ill and deranged Primarch. His reaction to things are often so extreme as to be insane, he reacts with a zeal that exceeds normal 40k levels to anything. Though, this is also a trait of the Black Templars, who are descended from Dorn. So, maybe this really is sort of intentional, lol.

strybjorn Grimskull wrote:My personal dislike is for Lion El Johnson and the DA's, i just don't like there back story, the fact that they are based on freemasons, or the story about the "sucker punch".

How are the DA based on masons? I always saw them as your bog standard knights of old.

Struggling with least favourite primarch here... I think I'd have to say angron; he's been so one dimensional for me. Yet to read betrayer though so this may change yet.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
But the notion that they draw on the "natural life and death cycles of Fenris" isn't a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of the Space Wolves being plainly wrong

They are correct in a sense. The turmoil of life on Fenris does roil the Warp, creating the context in which the SW rune priests developed their traditions. They are correct in a narrow, immediate, non-intellectual way. Magnus insists on things being correct in an abstract, universal, rational way. His perspective is very much like how most modern Westerners think about "truth" in the context of science. Ironically, Magnus's approach is superficially in line with the Emperor's public values -- whereas the "superstitious" views of the SW smack of the kind of values the Emperor publicly denounced. And yet it was Magnus's view that was deemed dangerous. There's a lot to explore there, concerning the Emperor's "private" viewpoints and plans -- all speculative of course.

And I think Magnus's involvement with the development of the Labarius is anything but irrelevant. Even if the others weren't attaining the same heights as the TS, Magnus would have contributed to the program a value system that holds attaining such heights as desirable. Even down to M41/42, the most powerful SM psyker after Ahriman himself is Mephiston. Just a point to reflect on, not definite proof of anything. It could be that the BA preserved the subtle contributions of Magnus. In that same vein, an UM is the next most powerful SM psyker after Mephiston in M41/42 -- and of course it is Guilliman who privately criticized Nikaea -- and reinstated the Librarius (who knows to what degree modified) to the post-HH standard SM formation.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Though, this is also a trait of the Black Templars, who are descended from Dorn. So, maybe this really is sort of intentional, lol.

This is exactly my observation ...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

^ Also don't forget canix helix...which effectively stops chaos corruption...or turns them into beasts....So way of Fenris can really make sense if you stop mocking and think about it....

Guilliman. Too spoiled for his own good.
As for legion, The Imperial firsts.....just hate them

Primarch: Russ, ignorant barbarian, hypocrite in the extreme. Loyalty being the only good trait he inherited from dogs.

Legion: Wolves probably, mainly because of the rabid (no pun intended) fanboyism that IMO would make the most hardened Ultra'smurf' fan blush. Them or the Word Bearers, how many times can one really say 'it is written' before the already weak catchphrase becomes completely cringeworthy?

Legion: Word Bearers - I really don't like the way they work during the great crusade and onto the heresy.

Primarch: Lion - In my opinion, the guy's just once big douche.