Switch Theme:

Most Hated Legion and Primarch  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

I don't recall a temper tantrum at all. In-fact, I thought he stayed surprisingly cool-headed about Curze's words, particularly considering their prophetic nature.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Just Dave wrote:
He went from petulant and scheming, to utterly, unflinchingly loyal and pragmatic. He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.


Yeah it was real knightly of him to karate chop his chaplain's head off, and sadistically grin about it while doing it.

ADB's depiction of the Lion was IMHO terrible. He was boring. The knightly, honorable archetype is one already filled by a lot of the loyalist Primarchs, him being a petulant, scheming sociopath made him interesting.

Fortunately, Gav Thorpe went back to his portrayal in the two Dark Angels novels, where he's a paranoid sociopath, jumping to the conclusion that Roboute Guilliman plans to make himself autocrat of the Imperium, and he is every bit as jelly and petulant as he was before. Also, he has the new trait of being an arrogant internet tough guy. "Oh yeah, the reason Horus sent the Night Lords to come fight me is because he is too scared to take military action against me myself, yeah, that is definitely the reason. I am the first Primarch of the first Legion, therefore I am the best. Go me." Oh, and he implies he fully does intend to sit on the sidelines, waiting for the traitors and loyalists to bleed each other dry, in what he believes to be an attempt to stop Guilliman and Horus from seeing power. What you see as pragmatism, I see as the delusions of a paranoid, off-balance mind.

ADB is a better writer than the guys who wrote the DA books, but his depiction of the Lion was decidedly more boring and inferior, IMHO.


He didn't sadistically grin whilst doing it: Corswain thought he saw a flash of enjoyment/thrill, then saw his pain and sorrow. And once more, I saw the karate-chopping as pragmatic, if really, really mean.

To be honest, I had forgotten about that bit - handy I have the book to hand though - but still, it doesn't make me like him less; it just adds another dimension, a darker side, and shows how close he could have been to falling, but still never did. AD-B tried to show the Lion as defined by his willpower and that's a portrayal I like; as I do his pragmatism.
He's not perfect, that's clear, and he's clearly got a sinister edge, but he's still utterly loyal to the Emperor and determined to try and do what's right, and that's what I like about him.
It's not like he was wrong about Guilliman, considering the Imperial Secondus/Unremembered Empire. His plan wasn't sitting on the sidelines either: by having Guilliman and Horus bleed one-another out, he would be attempting to secure the Emperor's rule. It wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines, so much as making sure the conflict never reached Terra or away from the sidelines.

And again, he wasn't sociopathic (or any more so than his brothers): the behaviours were more schizoid than anything, but once more, considering his upbringing, that's hardly surprising.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in gb
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Fenris, Drinking

My personal dislike is for Lion El Johnson and the DA's, i just don't like there back story, the fact that they are based on freemasons, or the story about the "sucker punch".

"They can't say no when they are stunned "- Taric

SINCE I STARTED KEEPING TRACK
5000(7 drop-pods)pts (15/10/4)
200pts(lol)
1500pts (10/0/0)
Other:(7/0/0) 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I believe their was some fluff about him insulting alpharius. I don't believe the Alpha Legion went traitor because of the Cabal, I think Alpharius wanted to be the Emperor instead of Horus.


It was Guilliman who berated Alpharius, not Dorn.
   
Made in us
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator





Florida, USA

I can't believe not a single vote for the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Interesting as I would have expected to see a lot of votes in that column considering the general dislike of the Ultramarines from most people.

My vote is somewhat split although I am more inclined to say that I dislike the Emperor's Children and Fulgrim. Mostly because that book was one of the hardest to read (Not because it was bad, but because it was so crushing to the spirit to read). They to me embody some of the worst aspects of Chaos in a way that makes me sour. After finishing Fulgrim I sold all my Chaos stuff, couldn't stand playing them anymore. That's the mark of a well written story if I can't stand playing Chaos anymore I suppose.

I like Dorn, he's one of my Favorite Primarchs. I think he has a fairly significant reason for disliking Sigismund, it's the principle of the matter really. No 'visions', or 'premonitions'.

Magnus is a very sad story, but I like him all the same. Who else faces off with a Phantom Titan and walks away clean?

Obviously Russ gets a nod. Very much wish to hear more about him in the future.

Don't know too much about the Night Haunter but he seems to have some interesting personality quirks.

Don't think we'll get to hear much more about Vulkan, which I suppose makes sense, but kind of a quick out for him yeah?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/31 03:36:18


You don't see da eyes of da Daemon, till him come callin'
- King Willy - Predator 2 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 Matt1785 wrote:
I can't believe not a single vote for the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Interesting as I would have expected to see a lot of votes in that column considering the general dislike of the Ultramarines from most people.

I can't speak for everyone, but Know No Fear evaporated any lingering dislike I had for the Ultras. Not that I ever hated them, but I also didn't much like them.
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





New York, NEWWW YORK

 Seaward wrote:
 Matt1785 wrote:
I can't believe not a single vote for the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Interesting as I would have expected to see a lot of votes in that column considering the general dislike of the Ultramarines from most people.

I can't speak for everyone, but Know No Fear evaporated any lingering dislike I had for the Ultras. Not that I ever hated them, but I also didn't much like them.


I'm not going to lie, with the last codex, my annoyance with the Ultramarines is at a high, but I hear nothing but good things about some of their Black Library portrayals. Gotta get around to reading them, though, before I talk any more than that.

- 1000; 3-2-0 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker




ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.

You mean after he had a tantrum when Curze told him about how the Angels would never be trusted(the truth).

The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch. His Legion is ok though.


Can I ask where you what book thats from? Ive read or listened to a few different parts of the heresy series ,but haven't come across Dorn in any of the books I've read and I didn't realize he had a falling out with Sigsmund. I just figured they had to split bc of the post heresy chapter organization.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

Shadows of Treachery - The Crimson Fist

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




Manresa, Catalonia

Guilliman and his ultrasmurfs are annoying, but Russ is way worse...

'ere we go! 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker




 Just Dave wrote:
Shadows of Treachery - The Crimson Fist

Thanks, just figured out which book I am going to try and read next.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

 Matt1785 wrote:
Don't think we'll get to hear much more about Vulkan, which I suppose makes sense, but kind of a quick out for him yeah?


Vulkan's got a novel coming up ('Vulkan Lives'; in which Curze also gets some coverage), a novella (sigh) and I expect will appear in 'Unremembered Empire'. He also has his first piece of artwork (see spoiler):

Spoiler:

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

I like how his bare face is not even blemished by starship weaponry hitting him.

And I'll respond to you late Just Dave. Probably.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut






 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I really dislike World Eaters, because they and their Primarch are nothing more than simple butchers.


and i Dislike you. jokes seriously Angron (world eaters) is my favorite beside Mortation deathguard and konrad Curze of the nightlords (come to think of it i only like those that turned on the E-man)

Dorn of the Imperial Fist's (what they only have 2 fists, whats so special about that?, iron warriors should have been the ones protecting the E-man, not those yellow flower power hippies) is my least favorite, followed by those pesky white scars. i have no real reason to dislike the white scars but everyone was listing chapters that they didn't like. i jumped on board.


my absolute favorite: Angry Marines 1st place,
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

This should have been a poll, just so Leman Russ could win it and prove that the forum really is insane. :p



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in hr
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Croatia

 Furyou Miko wrote:
This should have been a poll, just so Leman Russ could win it and prove that the forum really is insane. :p


I'm sorry but this one would go to Lion...hands down....Also "hate breeds hate", so I probably wouldn't vote....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/01 14:36:51


ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear




Pittsburgh, PA

Well, Angron used to be my least favorite, then I read "Betrayer" and while I still don't like him very much I at least understand a lot more.

Then came Lorgar, but then I read "First Heretic" and, again, "Betrayer" and think that during the Heresy, he is awesome. Pre- and post-Heresy, he's still a little sissy.

Next came Perturabo, and after "Angel Exterminatus" he's one of my favorites. His characterization in that book was fantastic, and I can follow every step he took and why he took it.

It seems like the theme is BL takes the Primarchs I don't like and makes me appreciate them a lot more. They've characterized almost all of them a lot, although I still know next to nothing about the Khan.

As for the DA's, I agree in that them and the Lion are pretty unlikeable, but that was definitely done on purpose. They want us to see him as an outsider and a bit of a jerk so they can keep their whole "half loyal" thing going on.

I actually thought "Know No Fear" was a little dull. It was just sort of an ok book, which was surprising since I love Abnett. It didn't do anything for me though since there weren't really any characters I cared about in it.

Eldar shenanigans are the best shenanigans!
DQ:90S++G+M--B+IPw40k09#+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in au
Numberless Necron Warrior




I think the reason people aren't bagging out the Ultras so much is people hate GW representation of them far more than the actual fluff and Black library coverage. Most people find them a little boring, but not particularly unlikable. I think my least favorite Legion would be the Imperial Fists. I just don't like them, I think they are a bunch of grumps and I don't like their successors. Except maybe the Black Templars. I have to say that I am not really taking into account the White Scars or Iron Hands as there just isn't really enough material out there to explain them properly.
   
Made in nl
Flashy Flashgitz






Well,..in the Codex the ultramarines are presented as the ultra good guys that can do nothing worng and are always in shining armour. Whil in their novels even some of them dont fully follow the codex astartes... space marine omnibus first novel,... first chapter... 3 transgressions against the codex astartes In the novels they are actualy quite the badasses!


6K
6K
6K
4K
 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




Sheppey, England

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Rogal Dorn is fething awesome. He's such a psychotic clown car of a man.


Don't agree with the sentiment but I can dig the emotion behind it!

Click for a Relictors short story: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412814.page

And the sequels HERE and HERE

Final part's up HERE

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I find Dorn (and Guilliman) to be the least interesting Primarchs really. They appear in just about every book in the same role, emotionlessly brooding about how the traitor Primarchs betrayed the Emperor and how they must protect the Imperium.

My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts


 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

 Just Dave wrote:
 Matt1785 wrote:
Don't think we'll get to hear much more about Vulkan, which I suppose makes sense, but kind of a quick out for him yeah?


Vulkan's got a novel coming up ('Vulkan Lives'; in which Curze also gets some coverage), a novella (sigh) and I expect will appear in 'Unremembered Empire'. He also has his first piece of artwork (see spoiler):

Spoiler:


I like what I see

Maybe they are running with the old Myth, of the immunity of real Salamanders to fire..

Looking forward to 'Hammertime' now. An angry Vulcan should get the chance to erupt ....
Because the deal the loyalists are getting in the series isn't a good one.

Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Harriticus wrote:
I find Dorn (and Guilliman) to be the least interesting Primarchs really. They appear in just about every book in the same role, emotionlessly brooding about how the traitor Primarchs betrayed the Emperor and how they must protect the Imperium.


See, but when Rogal Dorn does it, he tends to have something hilarious revealed about him. Like how he physically manhandled and tortured Garro. Or how when the Decree of Nikaea was passed, he locked all of his Librarians in a basement on the Phalanx (Seriously, even Angron was not so harsh on his Librarians). Or how, for a good chunk of The Lightning Tower, he seems to care more about the fact that he is making the Emperor's palace ugly than he does about the whole heresy deal. Then there is the stuff we already knew, like the Pain Glove, or being psychopathically driven to start a second civil war right after the Horus Heresy over a minor slight, or sacrificing hundreds of his warriors in the Iron Cage on an ego trip.

He's one of the most mentally off-balance Primarchs, and the best part is this portrayal is almost definitely unintentional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 1hadhq wrote:
Because the deal the loyalists are getting in the series isn't a good one.


What makes you say that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Dave wrote:
He didn't sadistically grin whilst doing it: Corswain thought he saw a flash of enjoyment/thrill, then saw his pain and sorrow. And once more, I saw the karate-chopping as pragmatic, if really, really mean.


"The seneschal was not entirely sure what happened next. The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing
lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in
the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet.
Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at
his handiwork.
It passed in a second. The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother-
Redemptor."

Normal people don't have a moment of sadistic satisfaction after they murder one of their sons. I don't recall Magnus feeling satisfied with his butcher of Uthizzar.

Pragmatic? Sure, I guess in the same way stabbing your baby in the throat to get it to stop crying is. I mean, that certainly is the most guaranteed way to shut it up.

That it was pragmatic doesn't change the fact that it was sick.

To be honest, I had forgotten about that bit - handy I have the book to hand though - but still, it doesn't make me like him less; it just adds another dimension, a darker side, and shows how close he could have been to falling, but still never did. AD-B tried to show the Lion as defined by his willpower and that's a portrayal I like; as I do his pragmatism.


You seem to be under the impression that I have some desire for people to dislike the Lion. I'm not particularly sure why. I like the Lion, as portrayed in the two DA novels and Gav Thorpe's short story. I didn't much care for what ADB was trying to do with him, but that is just me. Also, to me, being paranoid and jumpy to the point of delusion does not to me speak of a man of particularly great willpower. It would have been pragmatic to believe he should take counter-measures to ensure one of his erstwhile "loyalist" brothers does not turn traitor. Guilliman did this, and managed to do so without looking paranoid or delusional. The Lion however seems to have already decided that Guilliman is planning to usurp the Emperor's rule. Also, he seems to be enthralled by the Watchers in the Dark, though admittedly, this may be a misinterpretation resulting from lack of knowledge on what the hell the Watchers in the Dark actually do or are.

He's not perfect, that's clear, and he's clearly got a sinister edge, but he's still utterly loyal to the Emperor and determined to try and do what's right, and that's what I like about him.


He is indeed loyal to the Emperor. And only the Emperor.

He does what he "believes" to be right, but as far-removed from others as he is, his sense of righteousness comes off as rather warped. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself, the Emperor, and maybe kinda/sorta his sons.

It's not like he was wrong about Guilliman, considering the Imperial Secondus/Unremembered Empire. His plan wasn't sitting on the sidelines either: by having Guilliman and Horus bleed one-another out, he would be attempting to secure the Emperor's rule. It wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines, so much as making sure the conflict never reached Terra or away from the sidelines.


So what do we even know about this Unremembered Empire? Honestly?

So what you're saying is, he would sit on the sidelines of the main conflict, letting them weaken eachother, while actively subverting both sides of the Heresy?

And again, he wasn't sociopathic (or any more so than his brothers): the behaviours were more schizoid than anything, but once more, considering his upbringing, that's hardly surprising.


Be it his upbringing or genetics, it doesn't change him being sort of a ruthless, sociopathic (Yes, more than many of his brothers, though schizoid is a better descriptor) jerkface, IMO. But that makes him far more likeable as a character than a bland uber loyalist knight in shining armour.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 06:28:51


 
   
Made in gb
Skillful Swordsman




Thornton - Cleveleys UK

I cant believe everyone hates DA so much i thought the horus heresy books were good and enjoyed them especiall y Fallen Angels. I hope they get another book soon though its been a while.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"The seneschal was not entirely sure what happened next. The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing
lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in
the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet.
Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at
his handiwork.
It passed in a second. The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother-
Redemptor."

Normal people don't have a moment of sadistic satisfaction after they murder one of their sons. I don't recall Magnus feeling satisfied with his butcher of Uthizzar.

Pragmatic? Sure, I guess in the same way stabbing your baby in the throat to get it to stop crying is. I mean, that certainly is the most guaranteed way to shut it up.

That it was pragmatic doesn't change the fact that it was sick.


Yes, as I said; he didn't smile. I acknowledged that he showed a flash of enjoyment/satisfaction and then that it was replaced and sorrow: as the quote says. By stating he smiled, without acknowledging the pain, it didn't show both sides of the coin, which is a problem as people often read these threads without having read the books themselves (which was my concern), but obviously posting the quote solves that.

I don't feel the baby-comparison is quite appropriate (maybe even for the forum, never mind the context; although comparing Nemiel to a baby is an amusing idea!); I'd say it's more akin to an officer shooting a sergeant who disagrees within him?
As I said, it was pragmatic and brutal; as you basically agreed with yourself, so this particular part seems to be a moot discussion.

You seem to be under the impression that I have some desire for people to dislike the Lion. I'm not particularly sure why. I like the Lion, as portrayed in the two DA novels and Gav Thorpe's short story... Also, he seems to be enthralled by the Watchers in the Dark, though admittedly, this may be a misinterpretation resulting from lack of knowledge on what the hell the Watchers in the Dark actually do or are.


*re-jigged the quotes to condense the points*

I'm under no such impression (and I don't really see how my post suggests that, but hey). You seem to be misinterpreting me... Which has happened before.

As for the Watchers in the Dark; he doesn't at all seem in their thrall at the end of The Lion IMHO; he refuses to follow their ideas (to return to Caliban over visiting Guilliman) after all.

He is indeed loyal to the Emperor. And only the Emperor.

He does what he "believes" to be right, but as far-removed from others as he is, his sense of righteousness comes off as rather warped. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself, the Emperor, and maybe kinda/sorta his sons.


I don't disagree with this point, it's what makes him an interesting character IMHO. He seems to care for his sons, but it's the Emperor first and above all.

Also, to me, being paranoid and jumpy to the point of delusion does not to me speak of a man of particularly great willpower. It would have been pragmatic to believe he should take counter-measures to ensure one of his erstwhile "loyalist" brothers does not turn traitor. Guilliman did this, and managed to do so without looking paranoid or delusional. The Lion however seems to have already decided that Guilliman is planning to usurp the Emperor's rule
So what do we even know about this Unremembered Empire? Honestly?


We don't know much for sure; but I think we can pretty certain that...
... Guilliman is amassing forces away from Terra, seemingly under the impression that the Emperor is already dead (and therefore wants to make Sanguinius his heir). We've been told as much in a N&R thread, and all the signs seem to be supporting this: with Alexis Polux, Sanguinius, Lion (and the front cover) etc. Dan Abnett has also mentioned that their will be a big dozen-Primarchs brawl, suggesting even more will be there. If this turns out not to be the case, then I'll take this back, but there doesn't seem to be much to indicate otherwise.

So I feel it's understandable the Lion seems to think that Guilliman is planning to take over the Imperium or inherit the Emperor's rule, and that he wants to go over there to get Roboute back in the fight.

So what you're saying is, he would sit on the sidelines of the main conflict, letting them weaken eachother, while actively subverting both sides of the Heresy?


Kind of, yes; except that he would change the scope of the main conflict; rather than sit on the sidelines. Under Lion's plans, it seems he would have Guilliman and Horus bleed each other out, thereby preventing the Emperor's death and either one from taking power, as you said. But, i don't think it's so much as sitting on the sidelines, but rather bringing the conflict to the sidelines.

Be it his upbringing or genetics, it doesn't change him being sort of a ruthless, sociopathic (Yes, more than many of his brothers, though schizoid is a better descriptor) jerkface, IMO. But that makes him far more likeable as a character than a bland uber loyalist knight in shining armour.


Many Primarch's are sociopathic: it's due to who they are and how they were created and I can't begrudge them for it, nor would I imagine you'd be able to diagnose them for it. But I agree, it does make him far more likeable. I think it's kind of like the almost-awkwardness in the way he refers to his Legionnaires as "little brothers".

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in nl
Flashy Flashgitz






 Sword Of Caliban wrote:
I cant believe everyone hates DA so much i thought the horus heresy books were good and enjoyed them especiall y Fallen Angels. I hope they get another book soon though its been a while.


Guess the Dark Angels are just one of those hate em or love em kinda guys,.. nothing in between. Personaly i like them big time I am currently reading a Thousand sons,.. I realy like th book thus far,.. but i find Magnus rather lacking in the big awesome primarch role,.. but maybe that is yet to come... Im only in chater 5 atm...

6K
6K
6K
4K
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He's one of the most mentally off-balance Primarchs, and the best part is this portrayal is almost definitely unintentional.
I've been saying this for ages. It's nice that someone else finally noticed. People always think of Dorn as really responsible, just buying into the image that the text tries but fails to sell. Because what Dorn actually does is insane. I am waiting for someone writing for BL to notice this, too, hopefully before writing a book about Dorn's post-HH standoff against Guilliman.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch.

I really don't think Dorn can be blamed for Curze turning traitor. They had a disagreement on Curze's methods (which I'd imagine many Primarchs disapproved of) and Dorn confronted him about his vision of his death at the hands of the Emperor. Dorn didn't actually do anything to him. Curze turned traitor because he was insane and failed with ensuring his planet was law-abiding.

Peturabo changed for different reasons, but I really don't think that someone saying that they're better than you at something is a cause helping start a galaxy-wide civil war. I'd say Dorn get's away with that one too. It's not as if Horus didn't say similar things.


Personally, I like Lorgar and Fulgrim the least. Lorgar seems to be the only Primarch who turned traitor who actually knew what the consequences of Chaos were. Everyone else were deluded as to its horror but Lorgar embraced it. Fulgrim just because of how far he falls. He too embraces the horror of Chaos willingly, albeit he's led into it further before he actually sees what's going on. I like the honour-bound loyal Primarchs.
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Perturabo went traitor because he was tired of his skills being under-appreciated or flat-out ignored. Angel Exterminatus made it very clear that despite his aptitude for tearing gak down, he was an artist and a scholar first and foremost. While he accepted his role as a warrior, he didn't enjoy destroying things, but rather loved to build- a talent that neither the Emperor nor his brothers cared to acknowledge. So when he went traitor it was less of an "Rawr I hate my father I hate the Imperium!" type of deal and more of a "I'm tired of being treated like gak" type of thing. In fact, when he joined the Rebellion he was actually under the impression that once they'd won, the Emperor would be allowed to surrender and the Galaxy could move on. He had no idea or intention of seeing the Emperor dead and the Imperium destroyed until Fulgrim told him later.

There was also an issue regarding him commiting Exterminatus on his home planet, and the guilt driving him to join Horus because he felt that he was the only one who could forgive him for his deed, but it was left deliberately vague, so I can't comment.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/03 11:58:46


 
   
Made in ca
Hellacious Havoc





Montreal

I just hate Russ even if I have a SW army the thing about: ``The sons of thunder are not psykers using the warp`` is just annoying !

2000 pts Renegade Imperial Guard
1750 pts Chaos Undivided
1000pts Imperial Guard
750 pts Space Wolves
1000 pts Tau Empire



 
   
Made in nl
Flashy Flashgitz






 Ilove40k wrote:
I just hate Russ even if I have a SW army the thing about: ``The sons of thunder are not psykers using the warp`` is just annoying !



I loved Leman Russ big time,.. but i am currently reading a thousand sons,.. and i just passed the part where Magnus and Leman Russ were at each others throats.

The fact that Leman Russ thinks lowly of psykers while he has them in his own army and like a naive little fool thinsk his psykers are not dangerous and Magnus's are because of a geneseed fault >.<

Also him blindly killing an entire world and losing knowledge in the process... something i expected of Angron,..not him...


6K
6K
6K
4K
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: