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I was reading through Know No Fear, and I'm surprised to say, just how short Lorgar and his lads' devotion runs. I mean, they start boasting they're the most devoted Legion, and they just change suddenly-for the worst, IMO.

Coming back to the topic: I love the Thousand Sons, but tell you the truth, I have no love for Magnus, coz his pride damned a loyal legion.
I also don't like Lorgar, because 'Quoting Guilliman-he's a maggot, that should have been fed to Russ ', and the fact that he's a coward, and a brat who wants attention.

What about your views on the other legions

Lorgar isn't a coward, that is plainly false.

Sorry, must have mistaken him with someone else

No, you clearly know that you are talking about him, but taking the field of battle to fight Corax yourself, knowing that you can't win, so that you might give your sons time to escape him is not the mark of a cowardly man.

good point. But then again, a primarch isn't really afraid of anything, is he not?

Rogal Dorn apparently is so scared of Curze that the psychotic Primarch mentally suppressed his existence.

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
Sorry, must have mistaken him with someone else

Lorgar was presented as confused and physically weaker (due to his emphasis on intellectual undertakings) in First Heretic, but I advise you read Betrayer. He's a calculating mad schemer type who can take on Guilliman blow for blow.

There's a reason Lorgar's fall to Chaos was one of the more well-done falls in the HH series, because the fact that he had a vulnerable period of his life made it more believable that Chaos could consume him. Compare this to how Horus' fall is presented....

Iron Hands always bothered the crap out of me, 'we've been made into supermen, able to chew our way through steel bars, pull metal doors apart like tissue and do all this other crazy stuff like eat brains and pilot titans but for no good reason, we're going to get into chopping as many bits of our superamazing and scientifically advanced bodies apart so we can replace it with robotics'... The premise was always very daft to me 'the flesh is weak the machine is strong... even when the flesh is stronger than machines'...

And their boss was boring, well done Fulgrim for lopping his dullard head off.

Petur- Pertar- Purtura-, The iron warriors primarch, he is really well written but i hate his character. His only reason for going to chaos is being bitter about Dorn's (who obviously wasn't the best socialite) opinion on the palace of Terra. He even admits he is wrong but he thinks that changing his mind makes him weak and stays the course to chaos.

I liked the Space Wolves before starting in on the Horus Heresy series, but now I'd probably place them at or near the bottom of my most-liked legions list. It's partially that they get so much freaking screen time - I often suspect there's a contractual requirement to have a Space Wolf cameo once every two books - but the fact that they're written (by most) as essentially having the same personality and manner of speaking as archetypical fantasy dwarves annoys the hell out of me.

Lorgar and Magnus are both awesome, end of arguement.

I really dislike World Eaters, because they and their Primarch are nothing more than simple butchers.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Iron Hands always bothered the crap out of me, 'we've been made into supermen, able to chew our way through steel bars, pull metal doors apart like tissue and do all this other crazy stuff like eat brains and pilot titans but for no good reason, we're going to get into chopping as many bits of our superamazing and scientifically advanced bodies apart so we can replace it with robotics'... The premise was always very daft to me 'the flesh is weak the machine is strong... even when the flesh is stronger than machines'...

And their boss was boring, well done Fulgrim for lopping his dullard head off.

Two reasons for the augmentations really, firstly trying to emulate their primarch who had metal hands, but following the HH, was when the augmentation really started to begin. Basically they perceive themselves and everyone as failures. They believe horus and the traitors were weak for betraying, their allies for not protecting the emperor and themselves for failing to do more to protect the emperor, kill traitors etc. The modification of their flesh to remove weaknesses is an extension of their mindset, they believe that to counter the horrors of the Universe they have to remove all humanity from themselves ready for the return of ferrus manus. Perosnally they're my favourite legion.

I hate Horus the most, his greed, bitterness and hubris doomed humanity, reading the forge world HH book currently, so loathing the traitors even more than usual! Although the Son's of Horus/Luna Wolves are cool. Least favourite legion are probably the Word Bearers, religion and faith have been the bane of humanity since time began.

Lorgar and his damned Word Bearers stand for everything i despise in humanity tbh.
They're manipulative, preaching, self-centered, religious donkey-caves. If Empy would just have killed Lorgar and exterminatused his entire planet when he found him everything would have worked out for the better.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, you clearly know that you are talking about him, but taking the field of battle to fight Corax yourself, knowing that you can't win, so that you might give your sons time to escape him is not the mark of a cowardly man.

Also don't forget him stepping between Russ and Magnus on Shrike (after he was warned that he will die that moment )I mean it took some balls to do that...
Also Malcador told


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackcrusader wrote:
Lorgar and Magnus are both awesome, end of arguement.

Yep + they are interesting characters too....

It never struck me as a very well thought out idea how the primarchs fell to Chaos. After having built so much and worked so hard towards a goal like human dominance, just to watch it burn, seemed like such an about face to me.

So, Lorgar and Perturabo. These two characters alone ruined the HH for me, but I suppose that's a nod to the writers in a way.

The Lion is perhaps the least likable of all the Primarchs. This in fact was his plot "flaw". He really did not understand other people whether they were humans or astartes, was a schemer that would make Tzeentch proud and not faithful to his friends. He trusted no one which also made him completely untrustworthy.

Angron really doesnt count because he was obviously, nearly completely insane. In any event the Emperor did not deserve any loyalty from Angron because he only treated him like a normal person would treat a hammer, as a tool to pound on stuff

 uk_crow wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Iron Hands always bothered the crap out of me, 'we've been made into supermen, able to chew our way through steel bars, pull metal doors apart like tissue and do all this other crazy stuff like eat brains and pilot titans but for no good reason, we're going to get into chopping as many bits of our superamazing and scientifically advanced bodies apart so we can replace it with robotics'... The premise was always very daft to me 'the flesh is weak the machine is strong... even when the flesh is stronger than machines'...

And their boss was boring, well done Fulgrim for lopping his dullard head off.

Two reasons for the augmentations really, firstly trying to emulate their primarch who had metal hands, but following the HH, was when the augmentation really started to begin. Basically they perceive themselves and everyone as failures. They believe horus and the traitors were weak for betraying, their allies for not protecting the emperor and themselves for failing to do more to protect the emperor, kill traitors etc. The modification of their flesh to remove weaknesses is an extension of their mindset, they believe that to counter the horrors of the Universe they have to remove all humanity from themselves ready for the return of ferrus manus. Perosnally they're my favourite legion.

I hate Horus the most, his greed, bitterness and hubris doomed humanity, reading the forge world HH book currently, so loathing the traitors even more than usual! Although the Son's of Horus/Luna Wolves are cool. Least favourite legion are probably the Word Bearers, religion and faith have been the bane of humanity since time began.

Another reason for the Iron Hands' replacing their flesh as hinted in Wrath of Iron is that they start to itch after awhile and the only way to relive that itch is to replace themselves with augmetics..I think that's a pretty reasonable premise, I think it's mostly psychological and I believe that sort of phenomenon happens in real life...not so much cutting of ones own hand of course

as for me ...I'm not really fond of Space Wolves or Dark Angels

I like them all. Don't get me wrong, I think many of them have gotten short shrift in the quite uneven HH series but if they were more skillfully portrayed as the demi gods they are supposed to be than thy can't fail to be interesting and impressive. I guess I always imagine them in the most impressive light rather than the weak sketches they get in the books. Hours is probably the best example. Reading Alan Bligh, I get a sense of how Hours was nearly godlike in the flesh. That's a far cry from the douche who betrays the Emperor after a bad trip.

So far i'd have to say World eaters and Angron...

I havent read much about Angron and the World eaters yet but his mind literaly seems the way Kharns mind is now.

MAIL KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN!

Though its awesome to read how he smacks up the place!!


Dont know who my favorite primarch is atm,.. keeps shifting as i keep reading...

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
So far i'd have to say World eaters and Angron...

I havent read much about Angron and the World eaters yet but his mind literaly seems the way Kharns mind is now.

MAIL KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN!

Though its awesome to read how he smacks up the place!!


Dont know who my favorite primarch is atm,.. keeps shifting as i keep reading...

C'mon, man, how can you dislike the World Eaters with guys like Skraal and Ehrlen running around?

The Lions actually quite interesting if you think about it the fact he doesnt trust anyone makes him a bit of a wild card because you dont know what he could end up doing.Some kind of fight with Guilliman would be interesting, and the conflict he has going with the Night Lords is pretty cool.

Anyway of all the legions for me its the Space Wolves i dislike the most they seem to enjoy fighting other legions they are no better than the World Eaters (who i actually like) at least the WE have a reason to like fighting everyone the SW have none.

JWhex wrote:
The Lion is perhaps the least likable of all the Primarchs. This in fact was his plot "flaw". He really did not understand other people whether they were humans or astartes, was a schemer that would make Tzeentch proud and not faithful to his friends. He trusted no one which also made him completely untrustworthy.

Seconded, I also dislike him and the DA, mostly, beacuse they are schemers and backstabers...
I mean half of the legion is loyal, half not ??? Lion, what a grumpy duchebag :-)

Second would be BA (I hate vamps), and their goody, goodison,made out of cardboard angel boy (with a dark flaw)....

 DarthMarko wrote:

JWhex wrote:
The Lion is perhaps the least likable of all the Primarchs. This in fact was his plot "flaw". He really did not understand other people whether they were humans or astartes, was a schemer that would make Tzeentch proud and not faithful to his friends. He trusted no one which also made him completely untrustworthy.

Seconded, I also dislike him and the DA, mostly, beacuse they are schemers and backstabers...
I mean half of the legion is loyal, half not ??? Lion, what a grumpy duchebag :-)

Second would be BA (I hate vamps), and their goody, goodison,made out of cardboard angel boy (with a dark flaw)....

+1.....Lion and the DA for me too....

HH books do portray him as a backstaber and a genuine sociopath completely lacking of empaty....I would traded them for any chaos legion...

I disagree.

Whilst the two full-length novels did no favours for the Dark Angels and my opinion of The Lion, the subsequent short stories by two superior (IMHO) authors have really changed my opinion on the Lion.
He went from petulant and scheming, to utterly, unflinchingly loyal and pragmatic. He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.

In the space of a few short stories, I have developed a whole new respect and liking for the guy and look forward to reading more about him.

Garvy wrote:+1.....Lion and the DA for me too....

HH books do portray him as a backstaber and a genuine sociopath completely lacking of empaty....I would traded them for any chaos legion...

Sociopath is typically a term used for individuals with ASPD; which considering their creation and role as demigods of war, wouldn't be an unlikely characteristic to develop.

 Just Dave wrote:
He went from petulant and scheming, to utterly, unflinchingly loyal and pragmatic. He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.

Yeah it was real knightly of him to karate chop his chaplain's head off, and sadistically grin about it while doing it.

ADB's depiction of the Lion was IMHO terrible. He was boring. The knightly, honorable archetype is one already filled by a lot of the loyalist Primarchs, him being a petulant, scheming sociopath made him interesting.

Fortunately, Gav Thorpe went back to his portrayal in the two Dark Angels novels, where he's a paranoid sociopath, jumping to the conclusion that Roboute Guilliman plans to make himself autocrat of the Imperium, and he is every bit as jelly and petulant as he was before. Also, he has the new trait of being an arrogant internet tough guy. "Oh yeah, the reason Horus sent the Night Lords to come fight me is because he is too scared to take military action against me myself, yeah, that is definitely the reason. I am the first Primarch of the first Legion, therefore I am the best. Go me." Oh, and he implies he fully does intend to sit on the sidelines, waiting for the traitors and loyalists to bleed each other dry, in what he believes to be an attempt to stop Guilliman and Horus from seeing power. What you see as pragmatism, I see as the delusions of a paranoid, off-balance mind.

ADB is a better writer than the guys who wrote the DA books, but his depiction of the Lion was decidedly more boring and inferior, IMHO.

He has truly adopted the knightly-image and in fine, ass-kicking-Curze-stabbing-and-Guilliman-punching-style IMHO.

You mean after he had a tantrum when Curze told him about how the Angels would never be trusted(the truth).

The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch. His Legion is ok though.

So far Lion El'Johnson and the DA are who I like the less.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
You mean after he had a tantrum when Curze told him about how the Angels would never be trusted(the truth).

The Primarch that's by far the worst is Dorn, a guy who was such an egotistical jerk who constantly put down his brothers while building up himself, never mind how he disowns sigsigmund for trivial reasons. Three legions went traitor because of him (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion), he is by far the worst primarch. His Legion is ok though.

Alpha Legion did not turn traitor because of Dorn.

Rogal Dorn is fething awesome. He's such a psychotic clown car of a man.

I believe their was some fluff about him insulting alpharius. I don't believe the Alpha Legion went traitor because of the Cabal, I think Alpharius wanted to be the Emperor instead of Horus.