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Most hated eh?

Most hated Chaos Legion would have to be the World Eaters simply because they're dimwitted idiots that splintered into warbands. I also don't really care for Lorgar.

What a lot of people seem to intentionally overlook or just do not want to admit is that on the way to Prospero, Leman Russ sent a message to Magnus telling him to evacuate his cities and surrender himself and his legion to the Space Wolves in space so the people of Prospero would be spared.

I like both the characterization of Magnus and what little we actually learn about Leman Russ in Prospero Burns. The SW did not enjoy or relish their mission to sanction the TS.

Magnus on the other hand did completely understand the damage he caused when he sent his warning to the emperor but wasnt strong enough to own up to his crimes.

A lot of people posting on this thread and others seem to not really understand what was laid out in the two books about the difference between Rune Priests and TS sorcerors. The rune priests absolutely knew they were tapping into the warp but they were terribly frightened of it and recognized that they had to severely limit what they could do. The TS sorcerors however felt like there was no limit to what they could master and this of course led to their downfall.

The emperor of course must have known what the rune priests were up to and it is telling that he judged their activities as worth whatever risk was involved. Apparently the emperor thought that the methods used by the rune priests because of their more indirect approach of tapping the warp were safer than the no holds barred approach by Magnus and the legions' librarian corps.

The emperor could have banned the rune priests but he didnt. So it is not really accurate to say the rune priests were acting hypocritically because from their perspective they were using a different approach and had the tacit approval of the emperor wheras the librarians and Magnus were explicitly told to stop their psychic research and activities.

The legions were a military organization with the emperor at the apex. Hypocrisy doesnt enter into it. All of the marines and primarchs had sworn numerous oaths of loyalty to the emperor, they were required to obey or be branded criminals. Despite their other admirable qualities, Magnus and his sons were criminals and they knew they were in defiance of the Decree of Nikea.

It is clear from Prospero Burns that the SW did not especially enjoy their role in the big scheme of things. Aside from the sanctioning of the TS it is mentioned that they also had the role of doing many of the dirty jobs that the other legions would or could not do. I believe in "The First Heretic" it was revealed that Russ spoke on behalf of Lorgar at the beginning because he did not want to have to sanction another of his brothers (missing 2 legions) The SW wanted to be with emperor and other legions in the Ullanor system but they were off doing the dirtier work of the crusade elsewhere on orders of the emperor.

However, rather than being a mob of undisciplined barbarians, the Space Wolves are revealed to be one of the most highly disciplined legions because they are capable of carrying out missions for the emperor that other legions are not up to the task of.

JWhex wrote:
The emperor could have banned the rune priests but he didnt.

Well, that (the Custodes didn't seem to mind, afterall) or they disobeyed Nikaea, it's a hot topic...

I believe in "The First Heretic" it was revealed that Russ spoke on behalf of Lorgar at the beginning because he did not want to have to sanction another of his brothers (missing 2 legions)

Well, the idea of the Space Wolves sanctioning a missing Legion(s) is now thrown into even further doubt/question, as they instead were sent to somewhat-sanction another Legion (revealed in Betrayer; not actually read it myself, just revealed through spoilers), also linking to Russ' comment about Legion's fighting at the end of Prospero Burns.

However, rather than being a mob of undisciplined barbarians, the Space Wolves are revealed to be one of the most highly disciplined legions because they are capable of carrying out missions for the emperor that other legions are not up to the task of.

Them as the executioners/doers of the dirty work isn't necessarily true; it could be a self-appointed role, rather than actually the truth. Many others suggest it's their role, but an author has said otherwise, so like many things from the heresy series, it's open to interpretation and discussion.

Good post though; I agree with much of what you said - you didn't seem to have any overt Space Wolf or Thousand Son preference.

Besides, the legion that really got the dirty jobs was the Iron Warriors.

 Just Dave wrote:
you didn't seem to have any overt Space Wolf or Thousand Son preference

The new standard of credibility on Dakka?

 Manchu wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
you didn't seem to have any overt Space Wolf or Thousand Son preference

The new standard of credibility on Dakka?

Just... Helpful, I find. There seems to be a lot of me vs. you, Wolves vs. Sons, is all...

For me it comes down to, I wish the TS had been right but I can deal with the SW actually being right.

I have a hard time choosing favorites since all the legions are pieces of a larger puzzle that make up the whole of the story. I truly like the story, and while I may dislike small portions of it, I think that it would do it a discredit to say that any one part of it is "bad".

That being said, some legions have a certain quality to them that makes them more difficult to write about, or perhaps more difficult to relate to.

The Thousand Sons are probably my least favorite legion, but in a backwards way because there are things that I truly like about them. But they are are sort of a hallow legion and not very characterful. Nearly the entire backstory of their legion is reduced to Magnus and Ahriman, who are fine characters in their own right, but they are not sufficient to replace a whole legion of optional characters that could/should have unique stories of their own. I find this damaging to the legion and it makes me loose interest.

Also, it is my opinion that Tzeentch is a very poorly conceived entity in the background. Sort of a case of "biting of more than you can chew" in a literary sense. When writing, it is possible to communicate in words that a person may feel a certain emotion or experience certain events. Obviously some writers are more gifted than others and can tell a "better" story, but some topics make fore more difficult writing.

Even in fantasy, or in this case "sci-fantasy"... the concept of fate and destiny, magic, sorcery, and "infinite" knowledge are tough issues to tackle, regardless of a persons skill as a writer. It is quite tricky to create a being who "knows everything that was and will ever be" without encountering the superman dilemma. I could elaborate more but rather than derail the thread I'll just leave it here and say that Tzeentch as a character represents a poorly conceived sort of plot device to me that has always been the weakest part of the overall plot. Magnus / Ahriman and the Thousand Sons bear such a close relation to Tzeentch, and are tied to him in such a way that they leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I also have a strong dislike for the Ultramarines since I find them to be (recently) damaging to the game at large in the way they have altered the image of Space Marines who had previously been a gothic cult of warrior monks who had nearly "lost" their own humanity to safeguard the Imperium. The Ultramarines and their rigid, roman-esque militant foolery have reduced the image of Space Marines... they are now just jardheads with fancy armor no more reason to exist other than being an elite Imperial Guard unit.

The Word Bearers are a unique (and necessary) chapter since they are the starting point of the Heresy. And while I am a strongly Christian person IRL, their abuse of religion for a dark cause resonates with me internally, and I quite like that. I find their chapter to be analogous with the current state of religion in the real world, which is both frightening and of particular interest. For that reason, I both love and hate them. They are quite fun and characterful.

Aaaaaaand the Space Wolves... what to say. Better them than the Ultramarines? I have not particular interest in them, and they are a little eccentric, but they don't do any real damage to the hobby as a whole that I can see.

If it matters to anyone, it may help explain (or perhaps highlight) why I have the above opinions if I were to share my favorite legions.

I like the Dark Angels. Their chapter history is like the short version of the whole Horus Heresy, without all the existential stuff the BL authors did to it, which IMO keeps its simpler and more appealing. They also seem to be the chapter most like their first edition counterparts... gothic, grimdark, monks... other than perhaps the Black Templars, who are also quite awesome.

I like the Imperial Fists, who I think would make a better poster-chapter than the Ultramarines for their loyalty, nobility, and that they, above all chapters, truly represent the DEFENCE of humanity.

Sorry for the long post, didn't mean to ramble, kudos on the cool thread... maybe add a poll?

I have a love hate relationship with the nightlords,I love terror tactics and psycho warfare, but were on opposite sides and they don't embrace the flip side of terror.

I do not understand why people dislike the Ultramarines. Its almost as if it is some forum badge of honor to rag on the Ultramarines. I dont play them, the marine factions I have painted are BA, SW and DA, so I really dont have a dog in the fight so to speak.

Making a Romanesque chapter is a perfectly reasonable thing to have done when designing the chapters, it would practically have been an oversight not to given the importance of Roman culture to western civilization. Also, there needs to be a baseline chapter for comparison and the Ultramarines are a sensible choice for that role.

World eaters...I hate em.

Lorgar doubted the Emperor and got told off like a little kid by him in Fall to Chaos in the HH series. In front of Guilliman too...
This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...

 TechmarineNic wrote:
This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...

I don't agree at all that Lorgar was one of the less intelligent Primarchs -- but to say one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus is especially wrong. Or at least I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word "intelligence."

 Manchu wrote:

 TechmarineNic wrote:
This is my point that he was one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus and therefore hated...

I don't agree at all that Lorgar was one of the less intelligent Primarchs -- but to say one of the less intelligent Primarchs along with Magnus is especially wrong. Or at least I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word "intelligence."

Maybe he thinks they are the two that made the worst slip-ups?

Yeah,,, while I am not a fan of Magnus, I gotta back Manchu on this one.

I think Mangus was unwise, but unintelligent is a different story.

I think of intelligence as being a person's capacity to learn, absorb information, and retain facts. That being said, I would bet that Magnus is the kind of person who, if given a complex mathematical equation, would give you an answer before you got the question out.

But wisdom...wisdom is known when and how to use the knowledge that a person has. You cannot be wise without also being intelligent, but the reverse it not true. You can be quite intelligent without possessing any wisdom at all.

Magnus strikes me as the kind of fellow who, for all his intelligence can give you the "correct" answer, but seldom the "right" one.

I used to think much the same about him but I am beginning to think that Magnus was as wise as certain disabilities allowed. That is to say, his lack of wisdom really boils down to one very unwise decision -- namely, to bargain with Tzeentch. What makes hims so interesting to me is that this un-wisdom grew out of both sincere compassion and well-founded arrogance. But it did not grow out of stupidity.

Its kind of hard to look past Horus as the most hated Primarch, at least if we're going from an imperial perspective

I think OP asked for your personal opinion.

Got to be Dorn, for the reasons stated previously. He is an insane masochist with many very serious personality issues - none of them very interesting or well fleshed out in the fluff, yet.
Hopefully BL picks up on the potential and continues to tell his story of madness, but for now he is my least favorite.

Unless I'm reading the Dornian Heresy over on B&C in which case I think he's incredibly interesting. Actually now that I think about it, Dorn's fall into heresy as described in the fan fiction is much more feasible and better explained than what BL has done with Horus thus far.

I was never a fan of Russ or Magnus during the Bill King era, but with the HH I found them to both become much deeper characters, and that I could relate to each of their struggles.

Dorn leading his own Heresy requires one to accept that Dorn has the competence to convince his brothers to fall though.

Of the loyalists, only Sanguinius could manage that, IMO.

That's why it only came to blows with Dorn post-HH over the dex issue, even though Russ never had any intention of following it.

Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.

Just check his actions after heresy......Iron cage, pain gauntlet, anti codex - best codex chapter etc......

 DarthMarko wrote:
Just check his actions after heresy......Iron cage, pain gauntlet, anti codex - best codex chapter etc......

Yeah, I know, but people are talking about his actions in the Horus Heresy series.

How about his confrontation with Konrad? That wasn't exactly a balanced approach.

It wasn't, but it wasn't entirely unjustified either: Dorn was already angry with Curze, and we know how loyal he is to the Emperor (and his opinion on psychics). Just flicking through the Lightning Tower, it didn't seem hugely unbalanced IMHO: seemed more like wrathful accusations and anger.

I'm not refuting what you're saying; as I said, I knew Dorn was a bit 'unhinged', but I never noticed him as 'crazy'.

Just Dave wrote:Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.

The confrontation with Sigismund, but for me it's mostly the "pain glove." That type of masochism speaks to me of a very deranged and guilty mind.

 Just Dave wrote:
I knew Dorn was a bit 'unhinged', but I never noticed him as 'crazy'.

Sure, I don't think he really snaps until daddy's dying on the deck. But going after Curze like that was asinine. I know Dorn is smarter than that. I don't know if he's saner than that.

Manchu wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
I knew Dorn was a bit 'unhinged', but I never noticed him as 'crazy'.

Sure, I don't think he really snaps until daddy's dying on the deck.

You have such a way with words, Manchu.

going after Curze like that was asinine. I know Dorn is smarter than that. I don't know if he's saner than that.

Asinine in that he should've know what Curze - of all people - was capable of? Somewhat, yeah, I agree. Fits with Dorn's known stoicism and demeanour though. It reminds me of the phrase about the thin line between bravery and stupidy, and personally, I think it's more the former.

Lint wrote:The confrontation with Sigismund, but for me it's mostly the "pain glove." That type of masochism speaks to me of a very deranged and guilty mind.

I'll have to read the confrontation again, but again - although I disagreed with Dorn - I didn't remember him being particularly insane there either. He was stable enough to keep Sigismund as 1st Captain at least.

I agree about the pain glove though, yes, but people were referring to the HH series. I didn't think it portrayed him as particularly crazy, but does fit/foreshadow with the pain glove masochism.

 Just Dave wrote:
Asinine in that he should've know what Curze - of all people - was capable of?

Asinine in that it would not solve anything. Just like, on a larger scale, his ridiculous and suicidal action against the IW would not solve anything.