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I don't think it's quite fair to judge Dorn by the "effectiveness" of his actions. In the wake of an event as ... far reaching ... as the HH, it's hard to imagine that any actions would have truly resolved much. While the Imperium at large was reeling from a civil war, the core of the issue was still a blood feud between brothers. Emotions most certainly ran high and its reasonable within that context to accept Dorn's behavior as less than rational without making the leap to "insane".

Mind you, I'm not defending him. I think the writers did a poor job overall because they built him up to be a very heroic figure, towering over the defense of Terra, and being iconic in the way that he was, and then being unable to write him out in a suitable fashion. That's a hard thing to keep a place for when they also wanted that role to go to Roboute. If you look at the story, Dorn is a different person afer the HH. IMO not because of anything in universe... it's almost as if he was written by two separate writers. One who wanted him to be the hero, and another who did not.

MarsNZ wrote:
Primarch: Russ, ignorant barbarian, hypocrite in the extreme. Loyalty being the only good trait he inherited from dogs.

Legion: Wolves probably, mainly because of the rabid (no pun intended) fanboyism that IMO would make the most hardened Ultra'smurf' fan blush. Them or the Word Bearers, how many times can one really say 'it is written' before the already weak catchphrase becomes completely cringeworthy?

Uhm... nope?
In this thread I see a bunch o' people who just hate Wolves 'cause they have a loyal fanbase (fanboyism in completely another thing).
Barbarian? Yes, but I think 50-50%. Yes, they're more wild or just more rough, but barbarian... no.
They don't build nothin' 'cause it's not their style, and at the beginnin' it wasn't the style of any Legion.
The Imperial Army (later divided in Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy) built up during the Great Crusade.

Russ ignorant? Mhmh... no? He wasn't smart like Magnus, but he wasn't stupid like Angron neither. And Angron is not so brainless as most of people think. He was only too focused on bloodshed.
Hypocrite? No, again. The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer. And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.
And yes, he's probably the most loyal Primarch along with Sanguinius and Dorn.

So much hate for Russ and the Wolves.

En Excelsis wrote:
I don't think it's quite fair to judge Dorn by the "effectiveness" of his actions.

I don't mean to judge him by what resulted but by what a reasonable person could have foreseen not resulting. Going after Curze like that could not have resulted in anything good. But Dorn can't let anyone think badly of daddy now can he?

 Manchu wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:
I don't think it's quite fair to judge Dorn by the "effectiveness" of his actions.

I don't mean to judge him by what resulted but by what a reasonable person could have foreseen not resulting. Going after Curze like that could not have resulted in anything good. But Dorn can't let anyone think badly of daddy now can he?

I'm not trying to convince you to like the guy. Hell I am not even sure I like him. I just have a kind of sympathy for him since I feel like he was meta-abused by the writers. I love the IF. they are a great legion with lots of fun characters and they have given us some of the most flavorful successor chapters (Black Templars, Crimson Fists). They are quite cool. It's a crying shame that a character as bright, noble, and loyal as Dorn should be written out in the manner that he was.

Mind you, I am not attempting to build a case for him not being written out... just that it could have been done better, or at least in a way that did polarize him the way it did.

I don't think the trouble is that Dorn has been written exceptionally badly. Dorn was portrayed as having stark psychological issues before the HH series started.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think the trouble is that Dorn has been written exceptionally badly. Dorn was portrayed as having stark psychological issues before the HH series started.

Where? And in what way?

I guess it must have been in IA that I first read the Pain Glove and the Iron Cage incident. I don't know if they are from something earlier. But IA was published before the HH series got underway so when it came time to present Dorn in the novels there was already some precedent for him being off his rocker for them to build towards.


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BTW, just noticed IA in our glossary reads Imperial Amour. I meant Index Astartes.

 Manchu wrote:
I guess it must have been in IA that I first read the Pain Glove and the Iron Cage incident. I don't know if they are from something earlier. But IA was published before the HH series got underway so when it came time to present Dorn in the novels there was already some precedent for him being off his rocker for them to build towards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, just noticed IA in our glossary reads Imperial Amour. I meant Index Astartes.

I'll look it up and see what it's got. Thanks

 Manchu wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
Asinine in that he should've know what Curze - of all people - was capable of?

Asinine in that it would not solve anything. Just like, on a larger scale, his ridiculous and suicidal action against the IW would not solve anything.

Ah OK. Again, I agree and disagree, personally. I think his actions are fairly understandable considering the context and his general personality as I said before. Curze had just been slaughtering prisoners against Dorn's orders and principles, then there was obviously the content of his visions and the Night Lords already tenuous reputation. I think, all things considered and particularly in light of his personality, that Dorn's reaction wasnt that stupid, and that many Primarch's would've reacted the same.
Admittedly, we don't know much about how Dorn confronted him either, other than that it was angrily.

Real craziness can be explained but not explained away. So for example I get why Dorn put himself and the IF in the Iron Cage after the HH -- because he was a loony -- but also because of his grief and anger and guilt. Same thing here, just not turned up to 11 yet because the Emperor had not been laid low.

Also, I just re-read the passage where Sigismund confesses to Dorn (I'm liking John French), and again, he didn't seem crazy to me.

It made me like him even more to be honest. He's so stoic and loyal to the Emperor, standing in a difficult position but determined not to break, even if he wavers. Sigismund disobeyed him, and Horus disobeyed the Emperor; he went against the absolute unity and loyalty Dorn desired at all times, but then above all, and so it was all the harder for him. But he still, barely, remained calm, and will as ever, continue with his duty.

Also, Sigismund is going to be a real bad-ass when Horus hits Terra.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer.

The Space Wolves do, in fact, use the Warp like Librarians do.

And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.

The Wolves are not immune to corruption. They are not Grey Knights.


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 Just Dave wrote:
Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.

He forces his Librarians to sit around in a basement for years on end with no outside contact. Not even Angron was so brutal toward his Librarians.

His biggest issue in The Lightning Tower seems to be that he is making the Imperial Palace ugly. A magos is even like "R you srs...?" when Dorn complains to him about that.

And I just found out Roger Ebert is dead so I've lost my previous train of thought and will have to get back to you on the rest of this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer.

The Space Wolves do, in fact, use the Warp like Librarians do.

And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.

The Wolves are not immune to corruption. They are not Grey Knights.

.

NO and NO - did you freaking read Wolfs honor? I guess not because you hate SW novels....
They can go traitor, they can backstab you or go Wulfen - but chaos corruption is something which canix helix effectively stops...and this is like canon.....
Also you need to read about 13 Co and Bran Redmaw Co (who are on borderline to chaos and are pretty much all Wulfen)..
And even WHEN THEY BECOME WULFEN THEY STILL KICK AND RIP CHAOS ARSES....
Also if you don't belive the wolves - check what your idol Magnus said about them in my sig....

Also if you can provide a source which tells that RP and Librarians are the same (except their opinions) and that they use the warp in the same way ?


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 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Primarch: Russ, ignorant barbarian, hypocrite in the extreme. Loyalty being the only good trait he inherited from dogs.

Legion: Wolves probably, mainly because of the rabid (no pun intended) fanboyism that IMO would make the most hardened Ultra'smurf' fan blush. Them or the Word Bearers, how many times can one really say 'it is written' before the already weak catchphrase becomes completely cringeworthy?

Uhm... nope?
In this thread I see a bunch o' people who just hate Wolves 'cause they have a loyal fanbase (fanboyism in completely another thing).
Barbarian? Yes, but I think 50-50%. Yes, they're more wild or just more rough, but barbarian... no.
They don't build nothin' 'cause it's not their style, and at the beginnin' it wasn't the style of any Legion.
The Imperial Army (later divided in Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy) built up during the Great Crusade.

Russ ignorant? Mhmh... no? He wasn't smart like Magnus, but he wasn't stupid like Angron neither. And Angron is not so brailess as most of people think. He was only too focused on bloodshed.
Hypocrite? No, again. The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer. And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.
And yes, he's probably the most loyal Primarch along with Sanguinius and Dorn.

So much hate for Russ and the Wolves.

Actually if you go to the thread you ll see that there are just few well known haters who are constantly degrading themselves, and their only contribution to threads is mostly spawning petty hate...But there are always five times more positive comments....So don't worry, be happy....

 DarthMarko wrote:
NO and NO - did you freaking read Wolfs honor? I guess not because you hate SW novels....
They can go traitor, they can backstab you or go Wulfen - but chaos corruption is something which canix helix effectively stops...and this is like canon.....
Also you need to read about 13 Co and Bran Redmaw Co (who are on borderline to chaos and are pretty much all Wulfen)..

Also if you can provide a source which tells that RP and Librarians are the same (except their opinions) and that they use the warp in the same way ?

Hurrrr.

"While Rune Priests use their own powers and train in their own way, they function in much the same way as other Space Marine Librarians, tapping into the Warp and drawing forth power to create effects and shape reality."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 184

And before you jump onto the book's usage of "other" Space Marine Librarians, it was a slight error, the book acknowledges but a few lines before that the Space Wolves do not operate under the Librarius Department.

Page 5 of Grey Knights codex. States that the Grey Knights are the only force in the entire Imperium incapable of being corrupted.

The Space wolves can clearly be corrupted, considering the fact that they believe the use of sorcery has the potential to do so. Compare Grey Knights, who can use sorcery with no threat of corruption (At least, not yet).

Tell me, when hit by a Bolt of Change, what do you believe happens to the Space Wolves?

Oh, and I clearly don't hate novels with SW, considering I read Prospero Burns. I'm just not really a Bill King fan.

Cite the novel in question.

Actually if you go to the thread you ll see that there are just few well known haters who are constantly degrading themselves, and their only contribution to threads is mostly spawning petty hate...But there are always five times more positive comments....So don't worry, be happy....

I'm not a hater. It is so surreal for you to label me a fanboy of the Thousand Sons and a hater of the Space Wolves, when, between the two of us, I can actually admit my favorite Legion and Primarch has faults (Though IMO the brunt of the blame for the TS's downfall rests on Magnus's shoulders, not his sons).

You seriously believe that the Space Wolves are entirely immune to corruption. Seriously? Like, for real? And you have the audacity to talk trash to others about their opinions, when you spew comments like that?

This reminds me of something...

 Omegus wrote:
Space Wolves are too dumb to be corrupted.

Could this indeed be the reason the Space Wolves are immune to corruption? Who can say?

The Space Wolves can say with Soup-Nazi-voice "No sossery for you!" during the games and it seem to be similar but not quite the same. I basically regard the shamanistic ways of the the Rune Priests as a way different connection to the warp than the Librarians which I look more as a class of wizard or sorcerer.


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I have actually thought so as well VD. And you have admitted you like to speak up against the Space Wolves has caused me to think you at least doesn't like them.

@Void dude here is the newsflash - I don't belive they are immune to chaos (not like GK are) , it turns them into mindless beasts for Christ sake; who btw can shredd their own companies, if they are not controled...
But chaos corruption is a whole different trait....Even the freaking Abnett or ADB (not sure if I remember) said on his blogpost that the biggest irony is the SW and GK are working together considering their anti warp genes....

Magnus said it best - AGAIN, check my sig.....

Also your argument about librarians is that sentence ??? I think I'll bow out of this one......To intellectual for my huuurrrr mind....


+ I never said you YOU are a hater...Just your comments are pretty heavy one sided.....Even the freaking TS have two factions, and I'm pretty heavy with Ahriman and will defend his PoV with my life...

 DarthMarko wrote:
@Void dude here is the newsflash - I don't belive they are immune to chaos (not like GK are) , it turns them into mindless beasts for Christ sake; who btw can shredd their own companies, if they are not controled...
But chaos corruption is a whole different trait....

Magnus said it best - AGAIN, check my sig.....

Also your argument about librarians is that sentence ??? I think I'll bow out of this one......To intellectual for my huuurrrr mind....

You're right. Chaos corruption overrides the laws of physics, and the only beings in the setting that are said to be immune to it are the Grey Knights, the Emperor, and the Necrons (Probably also Untouchables but whatever).

Bolt of Change hits Space Wolf. What happens?

Oh, and do note I'll actually go ahead and admit that Space Wolves are [I]resistant[/I[ to corruption, but not immune.

Yeah, the sentence that states that they use the Warp just like Librarians do.


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 DarthMarko wrote:
@+ I never said you YOU are a hater...Just your comments are pretty heavy one sided.....Even the freaking TS have two factions, and I'm pretty heavy with Ahriman and will defend his PoV with my life...

Then uh, who else were you talking about, considering a well-known hater? Because I am the most outspoken on this site possibly, and certainly this thread, concerning that.

The only other person that could be called such that comes to mind is Omegus.

I don't particularly dislike the Space Wolves, and I liked a lot of their portrayal in Prospero Burns (Hated their portrayal in the codex though, which is why I originally disliked them), but I do admittedly argue against them. A lot.

But I like to think I also give them their dues. When most others were disregarding Njal in a thread to figure out the most powerful psykers, I spoke up and said a convincing argument could be made of Njal being on par with the other Chief-Librarians spoken about in prowess.

C'mon just check Fenris (who I think is the conduit ) and shifting continets + whole life and death circle...Is it so hard to belive that there is a slight difference in their approach to warp energy???

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I have actually thought so as well VD. And you have admitted you like to speak up against the Space Wolves has caused me to think you at least doesn't like them.

I like to speak up against statements I perceive as incorrect.

Know one of the other factions I most often speak up against? Orks. One of my favorite armies, and I was rocking an Ork avatar and status for a while, for those who care to remember. Yet, IMO, they and the Space Wolves seem to have the same issue, like, some unspoken rule that it is not okay to say anything bad against them, that some posters seem to posit, along with throwing out various disingenuous hyperbolic claims concerning the factions in question.

Darth Marko's comment concerning immunity to corruption isn't that bad, in all honesty, it at least has some basis so I can see where it comes from, I just deny the notion that they are completely immune to Chaos corruption. Frankly, I personally dislike and disbelieve the notion that even the Grey Knights are, but hey.


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 DarthMarko wrote:
C'mon just check Fenris (who I think is the conduit ) and shifting continets + whole life and death circle...Is it so hard to belive that there is a slight difference in their approach to warp energy???

Well... Yeah, lol.

I mean, the Space Wolves like to think they are super special snowflakes, only the Rune Priests verifiably travel through the Warp, use the Warp, and can apparently suffer the effects of the Warp.

Vaktathi said it best. The Space Wolves are like the hipsters of 40k.

"The Warp? We don't use that. We use the natural life and death cycles of Fenris. You've probably never heard of it..."

It is a bit of hyperbole attached to all the Space Marines. Especially the ones that take centerstage. I mean there are things I take seriously about the Space Wolves in general being more resistant to corruption than most other Space Marines, but still not immune. I don't like one bit the ludicrous thought of brother riding brother into battle (the wolves on Fenris being former Space Marines), and I sort of think of Space Marines as the gloryboys. Seal team six if you want. They are the ones doing the glorious stuff. The rest are just overshadowed by awesome.

I wish all Space Marines rode each other into battle.

Hahaha... God-Emperor I have a disturbing sight now every time I close my eyes.

Yippie kay yay, former colonists, now mutated into wolves...!!! I really shoud draw a wulfen riding a hu-man caricature....

Most Hated Primarch- I don't really hate any of them I'm more indifferent to Gulliman, Khan, and Manus... if I had to pick I'd say
The Lion, screw that guy

Most Hated Legion-Ultramarines, I really hate the Romanesqu stuff and their color scheme just annoys the hell out of me

Most hated Primarch on the internet: Lorgar
Number 1# Legion/chapter to make fun of on the internet: Ultramarines
Most despised type of fanboys on the internet: I'm Alphaius fanboys.

Angron is equally hated or ridiculed on the net.

Yeah the Ultramarines are pecked on a lot, which I attribute to their fans.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
The Rune Priest doesn't use the Warp like other librarian or, for example, a TS sorcerer.

The Space Wolves do, in fact, use the Warp like Librarians do.

And, beside, the Canis Helix make wolves immune to corruption. Or trasform 'em in werewolves IN SPESS.

The Wolves are not immune to corruption. They are not Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Dave wrote:
Could someone elaborate a bit more on why they see Dorn as crazy? I knew he was a bit unhinged, but I never saw him as fully insane as it were.

He forces his Librarians to sit around in a basement for years on end with no outside contact. Not even Angron was so brutal toward his Librarians.

His biggest issue in The Lightning Tower seems to be that he is making the Imperial Palace ugly. A magos is even like "R you srs...?" when Dorn complains to him about that.

And I just found out Roger Ebert is dead so I've lost my previous train of thought and will have to get back to you on the rest of this.

The Rune Priests draw from the warp but they do not use the warp in the same way as the TS or other psykers. This is not a subtle point in the novels or the HH books. The Rune Priests use shamanistic methods and draw from the warp indirectly whereas other psykers seem to just plug directly in the warp. This is why the Edict of Nikea did not apply to them in the novel.

What has never happened in the translation to the table top is to make this difference notable in the way the game works. The Rune Priests really should not be as powerful as regular psykers in the game but obviously the current rune priests are as good as any other in the psychic phase.

Hehe the Space Wolves has always been hypocrites, but in this case the hypocrite is right. I agree with that they have a purer link to the warp than most psykers and are less influenced by the fluctuations of the warp. And they can still in Soup-Nazi-voice yell: "No warp for you!" while they shut out the Hive Mind from the Zerg, I meant Nids.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Angron is equally hated or ridiculed on the net.

Yeah the Ultramarines are pecked on a lot, which I attribute to their fans.

I actually like Angron more and more as I read the HH novels, same with Magnus. Angron's character isn't as much of a berserker as I thought he was, just stubborn and prone to falling under the influence of the proto-nails. If anything I feel kinda sorry for the guy.

I dislike the ultramarines for the same reason I disliked the popular kids in school; too damn uppity.

Hm I don't like how people are often just taking Angron as just angry. Heck I have even seen some so-called fans toss around Angryon for rather stupid reasons. I'm just a reporter sort of reporting something I dislike. He has more shades than just being angry.

As for the Ultramarines, they are more like Manchester United. It's mainly the fans, though the players and manager ain't very sympathetic at all and same can be said for the boring invincible heroes they have both become.