KalashnikovMarine wrote: Interesting, is something happening? Is the cold perhaps thawing? Ending the limbo the army, and by extension we have been stuck in? If so how shall it end do you think? Are we seeing the dawn of a new lease on life? Or is this as they say, the end? The final pruning of our favorite rose? If the latter how do you think they'll justify it in the fluff? GK need ALL the armor paint perhaps?
I honestly would prefer if the GW had the balls to officially end the army and explain their reasons then keeping with this limbo as you say.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Interesting, is something happening? Is the cold perhaps thawing? Ending the limbo the army, and by extension we have been stuck in? If so how shall it end do you think? Are we seeing the dawn of a new lease on life? Or is this as they say, the end? The final pruning of our favorite rose? If the latter how do you think they'll justify it in the fluff? GK need ALL the armor paint perhaps?
I think we'll benefit from this, sooner or later. If the metal models are really being depleted, then it'll force GW's hand even more. They'll have to do something or they'll be supporting an army with both no codex (essentially, given that GW doesn't distribute it) and no models.
And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: True enough, but I'd like to think the girls would at LEAST die en masse against a tyranid hive fleet or something.
I feel reminded of the people who thought Relic invented the SoB, back when they released the Soulstorm expansion for Dawn of War.
I would have assumed people posting on dakka are at least familiar with the TT's own rulebook, though.
PS: It's two decades, even. I think their first list was in Codex Imperialis, which is from 1993.
And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.
I don't knoooow....
If I were told, as a representetive of a wargaming company that we had to remove an army because it wasn't making the sales quotas, I imagine it would go something like
"Alright, lad. Here's the thing. Sisters, right"
"whose sister?"
"The battle ones."
"I don't..."
"It's one of our armies."
"Are you sure? I think I would have been told if we had an army called sisters."
"Anyway, we need to phase them out. Tell me how you would go about doing such a thing."
"What are our stores of models like for this army?"
"We're set for a few years."
"Alright. First thing, give them a new codex."
"...that seems... counter intuitive."
"Hear me out. We make it less than enticing. Make a few glaring holes. Make it unscalable or something"
"Oh, ok. Well we can just make them have a set number of Acts of Faith, no matter the army size."
"Spare me the details. Do I look like I am a man that likes details? But that's not enough. Make it a footnote in the magazine thingy we run."
"Evil."
"You have only heard half of it yet. Literally. Run it over 2 separate issues."
"... that's just wrong."
"And once those issues are gone, so is the codex. No reprints."
"I'm pretty sure this is illegal in some countries..."
"And stop printing models"
"How will we get everything sold once they know we're discontinuing the army?"
"How would they find out? I'm not gonna tell them, and you're gonna be encased in cement."
"I'm gonna be wha-"
And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.
I don't knoooow....
If I were told, as a representetive of a wargaming company that we had to remove an army because it wasn't making the sales quotas, I imagine it would go something like
"Alright, lad. Here's the thing. Sisters, right"
"whose sister?"
"The battle ones."
"I don't..."
"It's one of our armies."
"Are you sure? I think I would have been told if we had an army called sisters."
"Anyway, we need to phase them out. Tell me how you would go about doing such a thing."
"What are our stores of models like for this army?"
"We're set for a few years."
"Alright. First thing, give them a new codex."
"...that seems... counter intuitive."
"Hear me out. We make it less than enticing. Make a few glaring holes. Make it unscalable or something"
"Oh, ok. Well we can just make them have a set number of Acts of Faith, no matter the army size."
"Spare me the details. Do I look like I am a man that likes details? But that's not enough. Make it a footnote in the magazine thingy we run."
"Evil."
"You have only heard half of it yet. Literally. Run it over 2 separate issues."
"... that's just wrong."
"And once those issues are gone, so is the codex. No reprints."
"I'm pretty sure this is illegal in some countries..."
"And stop printing models"
"How will we get everything sold once they know we're discontinuing the army?"
"How would they find out? I'm not gonna tell them, and you're gonna be encased in cement."
"I'm gonna be wha-"
And that's where the meeting would end.
But why bother keeping them updated if your aim is to remove them? You're going to have to deal with outrage from fans updates or no, so why would you maintain them in a limbo state if you didn't want to do anything else with them?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think the point was that they are unintentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.
Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.
Did you mean intentionally?
But yeah, I know what he was getting at. Though GW is very aware of the demand for the Sisters, and that there's people playing them. Obviously they can see that the models are still being oredered, and Emperor knows that GW gets bombarded with plenty of emails asking how to obtain the WD codex or when they'll be getting an update.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think the point was that they are unintentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.
Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.
Did you mean intentionally?
But yeah, I know what he was getting at. Though GW is very aware of the demand for the Sisters, and that there's people playing them. Obviously they can see that the models are still being oredered, and Emperor knows that GW gets bombarded with plenty of emails asking how to obtain the WD codex or when they'll be getting an update.
And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.
I don't knoooow....
If I were told, as a representetive of a wargaming company that we had to remove an army because it wasn't making the sales quotas, I imagine it would go something like
"Alright, lad. Here's the thing. Sisters, right"
"whose sister?"
"The battle ones."
"I don't..."
"It's one of our armies."
"Are you sure? I think I would have been told if we had an army called sisters."
"Anyway, we need to phase them out. Tell me how you would go about doing such a thing."
"What are our stores of models like for this army?"
"We're set for a few years."
"Alright. First thing, give them a new codex."
"...that seems... counter intuitive."
"Hear me out. We make it less than enticing. Make a few glaring holes. Make it unscalable or something"
"Oh, ok. Well we can just make them have a set number of Acts of Faith, no matter the army size."
"Spare me the details. Do I look like I am a man that likes details? But that's not enough. Make it a footnote in the magazine thingy we run."
"Evil."
"You have only heard half of it yet. Literally. Run it over 2 separate issues."
"... that's just wrong."
"And once those issues are gone, so is the codex. No reprints."
"I'm pretty sure this is illegal in some countries..."
"And stop printing models"
"How will we get everything sold once they know we're discontinuing the army?"
"How would they find out? I'm not gonna tell them, and you're gonna be encased in cement."
"I'm gonna be wha-"
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the point was that they are intentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.
Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.
Eh, I suppose it's fair to say that opinion on the Minidex is split.
But either way, that doesn't explain the many articles they got in WD following the Codex release (including new missions and Apoc formations), nor does it explain why they would reserve several pages for the Sisters in the 6E rulebook to showcase both their fluff as well as countless colourful photos of their minis. It does kind of evoke the impression that they'd be ... you know, advertising them?
So yes, stupidity. Or simply a matter of prioritisation. GW seems to be a fairly small company with a limited number of employees that does not like to expand, which means that more than likely SoB simply get pushed back in favour of (subjectively, as per the opinions of the people in charge, who all have their own thoughts about the various armies) more attractive projects - again and again.
It's not lack of interest from the players, but from GW. They'll let SOB die a silent death and if anyone asks they'll say there might be plans for them in the future. And by future they'll mean "never."
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the point was that they are intentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.
Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.
Eh, I suppose it's fair to say that opinion on the Minidex is split.
But either way, that doesn't explain the many articles they got in WD following the Codex release (including new missions and Apoc formations), nor does it explain why they would reserve several pages for the Sisters in the 6E rulebook to showcase both their fluff as well as countless colourful photos of their minis. It does kind of evoke the impression that they'd be ... you know, advertising them?
So yes, stupidity. Or simply a matter of prioritisation. GW seems to be a fairly small company with a limited number of employees that does not like to expand, which means that more than likely SoB simply get pushed back in favour of (subjectively, as per the opinions of the people in charge, who all have their own thoughts about the various armies) more attractive projects - again and again.
Squats had pages dedicated in the 2nd ed rule books, fluff pages, templates and pictures of miniatures. It's just a placeholder while miniature stocks exist and keeps them open to do something. But nothing was done and the range was wound down. By the time they got 'squatted' in 3rd edition they hadn't had a presence in the game for years. They weren't removed with any announcement, it's just like the Sisters, they were just eased out. The 'announcement' in the fluff they were all dead didn't come until they hasn't been seen on tabletops for many years.
I think people have a false impression of how the Squats were squatted. They weren't discontinued overnight with any announcement, they had a basic set of rules that came in the 40k game but never received a codex or any new miniatures. Stocks ran out in the shops and they became increasingly difficult to get through their old catalogue a which were still open to ordering back then. After a bit it became apartment that the plastic arms sprue was no longer available making many squat figures incomplete , and while it wasn't known at the time it seems that they've disposed of the moulds of the squats destroying them forever. Then once they were codex-less, with no miniatures available through shops or mail order and never being seen in White Dwarf, they were written out in 3rd edition by when many younger players didn't even know what they were.
There are parallels with Sisters, no codex, little official presence, very poor availability of miniatures which are beginning to dwindle even through mail order and likely the discontinuation of their moulds as metal isn't being used and they haven't been converted to Finecast.
GW also stated the reasons for why they removed the squats, and it wasn't because of any sales numbers but because they didn't feel the army would "fit" with their vision of the setting anymore - which, to be fair, did change quite a bit in the years after the initial Rogue Trader rulebook's release. It is also notable that the squats did not have their own 2E book but merely a "holdover" list in the Codex Imperialis, which was still very RT'ish in terms of mechanics.
Would GW suddenly think that, after over 20 years of existence, the Sisters of Battle would have no place in the setting? Perhaps, given that people leaving and new people joining means that the studio as a whole may, over the course of multiple years, change its consensus on things. However, how does this explain that, contrary to the post above, the Sisters' official presence has been on the rise rather than a decline? Ever since the days of 3rd edition, they've never been featured more strongly. One would assume that, if there are plans to phase them out, GW would actually stop printing WD articles on them rather than doing the opposite. Not to mention the revamped webstore, or the novels and audio books that Black Library has churned out (if you believe that 3 products in such a short timespan is a coincidence, I'd recommend checking out how many books the SoB got in the decades before).
About the only parallel I see to the squats is miniature availability, and the Sisters are by far not the only army that has temporarily experienced this.
Obviously, it's not impossible that SoB would be dropped entirely - given GW's special manner of prioritisation and business sense displayed in the past. All I'm saying is "don't panic", and don't jump to conclusions just because one of several region's webstores once again shows some minis as Unavailable and this time it just happens to be SoB.
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.
*bla*
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.
Might as well grant them the Emperor's Peace than suffer through that abomination
Eh, apparently they've improved finecast quite a bit since it was introduced, according to various fine gents on /tg/ who recently purchased some finecast models.
I wouldn't mind finecast minis at all, personally.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote: GW also stated the reasons for why they removed the squats, and it wasn't because of any sales numbers but because they didn't feel the army would "fit" with their vision of the setting anymore - which, to be fair, did change quite a bit in the years after the initial Rogue Trader rulebook's release. It is also notable that the squats did not have their own 2E book but merely a "holdover" list in the Codex Imperialis, which was still very RT'ish in terms of mechanics.
Would GW suddenly think that, after over 20 years of existence, the Sisters of Battle would have no place in the setting? Perhaps, given that people leaving and new people joining means that the studio as a whole may, over the course of multiple years, change its consensus on things. However, how does this explain that, contrary to the post above, the Sisters' official presence has been on the rise rather than a decline? Ever since the days of 3rd edition, they've never been featured more strongly. One would assume that, if there are plans to phase them out, GW would actually stop printing WD articles on them rather than doing the opposite. Not to mention the revamped webstore, or the novels and audio books that Black Library has churned out (if you believe that 3 products in such a short timespan is a coincidence, I'd recommend checking out how many books the SoB got in the decades before).
About the only parallel I see to the squats is miniature availability, and the Sisters are by far not the only army that has temporarily experienced this.
Obviously, it's not impossible that SoB would be dropped entirely - given GW's special manner of prioritisation and business sense displayed in the past. All I'm saying is "don't panic", and don't jump to conclusions just because one of several region's webstores once again shows some minis as Unavailable and this time it just happens to be SoB.
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.
It's also worth noting that GW has said that they'll never "squat" an army again. They remember how that went down with some players.
Troike wrote:Eh, apparently they've improved finecast quite a bit since it was introduced, according to various fine gents on /tg/ who recently purchased some finecast models.
I wouldn't mind finecast minis at all, personally.
Granted, I heard that as well - but even leaving the smaller (yet not totally absent) risk of deformations and air bubbles aside, no amount of quality improvement will, as far as my own personal preferences are concerned, make up for the loss of weight and stability. In the end, it'll always remain a flimsy piece of resin that can't even withstand a slight breeze of wind and will melt if you leave it standing in the sun.
The ability to convert will be a huge boon, but to me, the negatives outweigh the positives. That is something that everyone would have to decide for themselves, though.
Troike wrote:It's also worth noting that GW has said that they'll never "squat" an army again. They remember how that went down with some players.
I've never actually seen a quote for this - at least this was not part of the statement Jervis released once.
I still consider it to be one of those undying urban rumours, just like "everything is canon", "FW rules = Codex", etc.
I wouldn't mind finecast Penitent Engines. They gotta be easier to put together than those metal ones. Holy cow. Also, if making them finecast makes them easier to get (and hopefully cheaper??) then I'm all for it.
Troike wrote:Eh, apparently they've improved finecast quite a bit since it was introduced, according to various fine gents on /tg/ who recently purchased some finecast models.
I wouldn't mind finecast minis at all, personally.
Granted, I heard that as well - but even leaving the smaller (yet not totally absent) risk of deformations and air bubbles aside, no amount of quality improvement will, as far as my own personal preferences are concerned, make up for the loss of weight and stability. In the end, it'll always remain a flimsy piece of resin that can't even withstand a slight breeze of wind and will melt if you leave it standing in the sun.
Though one very positive thing that finecast would do is make Sisters very much avaliable and affordable. And if there's one army that needs to be both of those things, it's the SoB.
Recasting the old models as finecast would not go down well with me. I want plastics that are like all the other armies' troop choices. Posable and with a few decorative options.
Failing that, I'd rather have the feel of weight when I move the models around than the same models, cheaper and finecasted.
It just sounds like one of those steps from where there is no way back. :(
On the other hand, it might result in more regular/extensive rules releases or other featurettes from which those who already have the army would profit as well - and metal minis would admittedly remain available via the usual online outlets for some time to come...
Ultimately, I see myself as being in the minority regarding the love for metals anyways, and if there are so many people waiting for resin SoB ... eh, let 'em have it.
That being said, it would remain to be seen whether they truly end up being cheaper:
3 Metal Battle Sisters: £10.75
5 Finecast Space Marine Veterans: £25.50
-> ???
Purifier wrote: Recasting the old models as finecast would not go down well with me. I want plastics that are like all the other armies' troop choices. Posable and with a few decorative options.
Failing that, I'd rather have the feel of weight when I move the models around than the same models, cheaper and finecasted.
Yeah bud, I'd much prefer plastics too. Though apparently GW is having problems making plastic Sisters (they can't get the robes to look right, allegedly) so finecast could be what we end up with.
But hey, maybe they'll sort the issues with plastic and we'll get plastic Sororitas after all. I certainly wouldn't complain. Plastic Sabbat helmets would be kickass.
Lynata wrote: Ultimately, I see myself as being in the minority regarding the love for metals anyways
I like the metal minis too, but I just feel that it's working against us at this point. If the rumours about GW stepping away from metal entirely are true, anyway.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Yeah no matter what comes out of this, we're not getting cheaper SoB out of it
Well, optimally, in a perfect world, it would go the way of the GK troop pack, which also contains the option of making the heavy weapons choices, which at the moment are super expensive at like 10 quid a pop.
Of course, I would expect the pack to be 10 models, not 5 like the GK.
(I sort of like how this thread has become a calm discussion of a few sisters players lamenting over the current state of affairs without ever really adding anything new. We're all just sort of bobbing our heads at eachother's comments.)
Keep writing letters, recruit fellow players to write letters, maybe start up an online petition, get the owners of your FLGS to write letters. Show GW that the market demand is there.
Once all that's done, perform weekly sacrifices to the Dice Gods and maybe GW will respond. This doesn't mean they will respond favorably, but, right now, all we're shooting for is *a* response of some kind.
Some friends of mine and I are actually engaging in a concerted effort to get Sisters put up as the Army of the Month and what have you, taking photos of battles, collections and the like and sending them in.
Furyou Miko wrote: Some friends of mine and I are actually engaging in a concerted effort to get Sisters put up as the Army of the Month and what have you, taking photos of battles, collections and the like and sending them in.
Oh? Where are you sending them to? WD, I presume?
Not that I'm currently at a stage where I could really contribute, but I'll try to once I've built my force up enough.
Yeah, to team@whitedwarf.co.uk. Also to the customer service team, just because there used to be an article on the GW website that covered Hall of Fame and the like, although that seems to have been merged into the WD segments now.
Heh, maybe all this time, and GW have just been waiting for their 3D printer to be set up before running off the new Sisters as an inaugural army... (manic pixie dream...)
conker249 wrote: I noticed some models were labeled," product unavailable" like the seraphim with bolt pistol and power sword and Kiryanov off the UK site a few days ago. Today they are just gone off the site, USA included. Not a good sign.
Why is that not a good sign instantly? This happens all the time right before a big release of models for a force. Or they are about to release the metal figs in Finecast or something like that.
Why immediately assume the negative? Before panicking, see what happens first.
Sent an email regarding the codex, got a response finally:
Spoiler:
My email wrote:Subject: Codex: Sisters of Battle Where can I pick up this book? It is not available through the Games Workshop website. I see that you have a(n edited) copy of the old Codex: Witch Hunters up on your site, but not the current codex.
I do not want to have to obtain the current codex illegally through torrents or free downloads, as those always carry risks of viruses.
Their response wrote:Hello,
Thank you for writing into us. About the White Dwarf's 379 & 380 that have the Sisters of Battle Codex, those issues did sell out and we have none available. We have asked that the rules for the Sisters of Battle be put on the Games Workshop website but I don't know when or if they will be put on the website and for that I apologize. We do have a customer service copy of the rules, so if you give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 we can go over the rules with you. Should you have any other questions please give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 and we will work to get you helped out.
Thanks, Games Workshop North America Customer Services
Fun... they expect new sisters players to call a number and ask what the rules are via a phone lol.
I have a photocopy of the codex mind you, but I was trying to see what their response would be...
I'm actually amused, even though it's a rather sad topic. I don't envy their CS at all.
Makes me wonder when large parts of the community will simply decide to revert to the 3E Codex for their games and local tournaments. At least that one can actually be downloaded from the GW website.
Hmm... maybe this is a tip to get all of us to start calling the GW number and being like "Ok, I got a Sisters of Battle Army. How does I plays it?" and then having them basically read the Codex to us. Maybe GW will take notice when their CS line is taken up by someone calling in for hours to have someone read them a book.
GW's CS is a very under appreciated part of the company that actually rocks most of the time. I do have a hilarious mental image of people calling in and having them read the WD Sisters Codex to them while they take copious notes. I'd then ask them to mail me something on letter head saying my notes are a legit codex acquisition XD
KalashnikovMarine wrote: GW's CS is a very under appreciated part of the company that actually rocks most of the time. I do have a hilarious mental image of people calling in and having them read the WD Sisters Codex to them while they take copious notes. I'd then ask them to mail me something on letter head saying my notes are a legit codex acquisition XD
I used to talk to Troy "like the city" Sands. He was always polite and extremely helpful.
I've been wondering the same thing, I think the SoB are awesome.
I was going to make the Sisters of the Lost Rosetta. which is an order that assisted the Blood Ravens in archaeological excavations looking for their origins. And since I planed making a Blood Raven's Space Marine army I was going to make them allies.
So, I'm thinking of (once I'm finished moving and organising, so a month or two in the future) booking out half the hall at GWHQ for a whole day and running a 'mini campaign weekend' based around the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.
How many people would be interested in being part of this on the Sororitas side of things? Closer to the time, and if I can get enough Sororitas players together to mount an effective Brides of the Emperor army to defend the palace without resorting to Marines or too many Guard players I'll advertise the event on the main forum, but before that I need to know if we can get this off the ground at all.
So, I'm thinking of (once I'm finished moving and organising, so a month or two in the future) booking out half the hall at GWHQ for a whole day and running a 'mini campaign weekend' based around the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.
How many people would be interested in being part of this on the Sororitas side of things? Closer to the time, and if I can get enough Sororitas players together to mount an effective Brides of the Emperor army to defend the palace without resorting to Marines or too many Guard players I'll advertise the event on the main forum, but before that I need to know if we can get this off the ground at all.
Hi, I am UK based so would potentially be interested.
Gonna be a lot of work, and it's in the very early stages, but I have hopes. If anyone has suggestions, please feel free to message me or post them in this thread for now.
So, I'm thinking of (once I'm finished moving and organising, so a month or two in the future) booking out half the hall at GWHQ for a whole day and running a 'mini campaign weekend' based around the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.
How many people would be interested in being part of this on the Sororitas side of things? Closer to the time, and if I can get enough Sororitas players together to mount an effective Brides of the Emperor army to defend the palace without resorting to Marines or too many Guard players I'll advertise the event on the main forum, but before that I need to know if we can get this off the ground at all.
So, I'm thinking of (once I'm finished moving and organising, so a month or two in the future) booking out half the hall at GWHQ for a whole day and running a 'mini campaign weekend' based around the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.
How many people would be interested in being part of this on the Sororitas side of things? Closer to the time, and if I can get enough Sororitas players together to mount an effective Brides of the Emperor army to defend the palace without resorting to Marines or too many Guard players I'll advertise the event on the main forum, but before that I need to know if we can get this off the ground at all.
I havea few thousand points of Sisters and assuming work commitments allow would like to join in August is a bad month for me though
conker249 wrote: On the US site, Kyrinov Returned. Expected delivery is 4 weeks on availability.
Man, I've been wanting a Kyrinov, but the little bugger is still gone for me.
Memphis must still have some in stock, I guess. But don't worry, there's a good chance that you can get him for a good price on ebay. SoB special characters were quite well priced on there, last time I checked.
What I'm still confused about is why all of the Seraphim Superiors vanished from the UK site pretty much at once. Seriously, if anybody has a theory on this I'd love to hear it. I would have thought that just one, the most popular one, would have vanished.
conker249 wrote: On the US site, Kyrinov Returned. Expected delivery is 4 weeks on availability.
Man, I've been wanting a Kyrinov, but the little bugger is still gone for me.
Memphis must still have some in stock, I guess. But don't worry, there's a good chance that you can get him for a good price on ebay. SoB special characters were quite well priced on there, last time I checked.
What I'm still confused about is why all of the Seraphim Superiors vanished from the UK site pretty much at once. Seriously, if anybody has a theory on this I'd love to hear it. I would have thought that just one, the most popular one, would have vanished.
I've been looking, actually. With a 7 pound shipping, it doesn't leave much room for getting him at a decent price But I'm sure another one will pop up. One cheap one up atm, but with some modded mace. I want the original.
