theHandofGork wrote: On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
Not knowing the whole story of those specific actions, but seeing how Wargames Factory has flourished and Defiance has not, I wonder even if true if it was not a very smart tactic on the manufacturer's part. He may well have realized what he was dealing with and decided he did not feel like failing. Ditching Tony seems to have worked.
Let us preface all this by saying that Defiance Games has had it's share of ups and downs and we've made a lot of mistakes along the way. It has definitely not been a pretty journey in the least and we are well aware of our reputation.
Over the last few months we have been regrouping and rebuilding to fix our past and bring new products to the market - helped along by a small, but successful Kickstarter in October.
That all said, we can't stand by and have our reputation further destroyed by statements that only tell a part of the story.
Alyssa Faden (or Natalya Faden) of Torn World has made a statement that basically says we are to blame for her Kickstarter failing. This is absolutely untrue. We don't believe she could afford to finish her Kickstarter with us or anyone.
Torn raised $67K in April 2013 primarily by including a large number of miniatures as stretch goals and a free shipping offer - similar to what the large companies like Mantic Games do – when they have $1M+ Kickstarters. The core game had 12 unique miniatures (39 total figures per set). They hired another company to sculpt these figures for them and provide manufacturable STL files.
This didn't happen. It was clear early on that the sculpts that were being produced were not manufacturable at all. A combination of undercuts, ultra-thin part areas, and other problems would mean anyone would be hard pressed to actually produce them. Alyssa then described these sculpts as "sketches" that could be used by other sculptors to create manufacturable models. Torn also hired a number of physical (i.e. non-digital putty/greenstuff) sculptors to make versions of these as well.
The sculpts from Alyssa's digital sculptors cost close to $20K from what she has told us. This doesn't include the additional sculptures ($300-400 or more each) done in putty.
At the same time, as Alyssa realized that nothing she had paid for from the digital sculptors was usable, she was receiving quotes from China factories to produce the miniatures. These were coming back 30% or so over what she had “estimated”. One quote we saw put the molding alone at $45K. (i.e. it didn't include the manufacturing of any miniatures – just the molds to do so – leaving $20K for sculpting, printing, shipping, etc). The project was absolutely doomed at this stage.
At this point she called us and wanted to know if we could help do this project for her. We pushed back as we already had a lot going on here and didn't want to complicate things. She kept coming back to us asking us to please quote on the project. Finally - and how we now regret this - we did.
Her plan was that she was going to have a new digital sculptor take the digital files and “fix” them to allow them to be molded. This sounded doable and we put in place a project to mold and produce 500 core box sets. Keep in mind there are 12 unique figures in this box set and 39 figures per box. It is not a huge project but something that should take a few weeks to produce after receiving usable files. (Our project also did not include any of the 20+ other sculptures – some of them quite large multi-part expensive pieces including a massive Mu warmachine thing in many separate parts – that were needed to satisfy the Kickstarter – go visit her Kickstarter page to see all the add-on sculpts that were part of this – our part was just the core box set. She planned on having us quote on the additional work for these figures after the first project. At the time we did not know there was probably zero budget for this available.)
We drew up a contract together and this was our responsibility list:
1. Create molds for plastic production from TW-supplied master sculptures
2. Produce plastic figures from DFG-created molds.
Torn were responsible for giving us workable 3D files – which she failed to mention in her post - which we would of course work with the sculptor to make sure we could use. And that is where it fell apart.
As this was happening, the conventional sculptors had finished their work. We were ready to start molding those and producing parts. We sent pictures of the ones we received to Alyssa who posted them up on her Kickstarter pages. Based on the feedback she received she decided that the physical sculpts weren't good enough. She instructed us not to produce them and wait for the digital files to be redone.
She brought in a sculptor who began to work on the files. Unfortunately, at the time we didn't know that the files were such a mess that he was basically just re-sculpting everything from scratch. Reportedly, he was being paid $100-200 each - a really low price for the amount of work he was doing. Unfortunately, as he began to deliver the files to us we saw that changes needed to be made. The technical fixes themselves were fine - but the way they were being laid out presented issues with undercuts and in some cases used way too many parts per figure.
For example - the Mu Slinger - a 20mm tall mouse person - was delivered in five separate parts: head, two arms, body, and tail. Alyssa's instructions were to have as little gluing for the end customer as possible. We went back with a list of changes and suggestions on how to repose the sculpts to get close to a single piece figure.
The sculptor refused to communicate with us. We were forced to play the telephone game through Alyssa. But even then that did not result in changes. Alyssa was pulling her hair out - we were pulling our hair out as well. We just wanted to get some manufacturable files, print them, make the molds and produce what we were hired to make.
We recommended Alyssa hire another sculptor to try to fix the files - someone we trusted and whose work we respected. That was in December – only a short time ago. He started to look at the files and manipulate them. He quickly realized – as the original “fix” sculptor had - that one of the problems was the original files themselves. He asked if we could receive the native ZBrush files to work from. Those would be layered ZTL files. If he had those, he could make changes quickly.
To be safe, we asked Alyssa to ask the original digital sculptors for a sample of the original files to make sure they worked. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Instead, Alyssa apparently gave those digital sculptors $1000 to send her all the files without looking at them first. (We found out at this point that she and the original sculpting company had had a falling out and weren't on speaking terms – we don't know the whole story.)
The new sculptor received the files and discovered that they were a mess. In his words: "the issue isn't the poses as much as how they decided to layout the layers gaps and spaces that are hard or impossible to patch up because they bound them together. You can cut a piece off there is nothing under it lol have to fill the blank and then smooth it and it looks like crap."
He spent a lot of time and got us the one hoplite pose finalized which Alyssa posted January 8th. We thought we were now going to be okay but the more the sculptor dug into them the worse the files were.
Alyssa told us that she could not afford to pay for additional sculpting. We HAD to make what we had work. Unfortunately, that was impossible given the files we had to work with. Unless someone were to completely re-sculpt these figures from scratch there was no way we could produce them.
Defiance Games is now a scapegoat for Torn's decision to shut down this project - a convenient and easy target because of our own well-documented problems. We don't deny them – we definitely have had them – but we feel they are being used now to cover up Torn's inability to fulfill their Kickstarter.
We signed on to make their figures but we were never given the files that would allow that to happen. We are still prepared to finish the project and we've budgeted the materials and man-hours to do it. We just need usable files and we would be thrilled to do the work and make this project a reality.
Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum. Along with offering to complete the project if we're given files that can be turned into miniatures, we've also offered to work out a payment plan. We'd love to see Alyssa's project succeed, but we won't lay down and let Defiance be dragged through the mud for something that is - for once - not our fault.
We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials...this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.
We know we don't have a great track record and we've been working to fix it. We know we did not complete the project. But we also want people to understand the other side of this story and why that is. This is a terrible situation for everyone involved and the result may be that both our companies go down because of it..
I love how they are displacing the blame saying it never would have worked. That doesn't provide an excuse to promise work, fail to deliver and still take the money.
If the files were in fact unusable then Defiance should have refunded the money immediately and let TA take her project to another company. DG's statement sounds an awful lot like well it wasn't going to work, so we liberated her money to save it from being misspent.
Like Dream Forge stated it takes virtually no time to determine that the files won't work, you can check for file integrity using free ware (mesh lab or nettfab) and know within 5 minutes if the file is print worthy or not. It does not take a long involved process. They should have sent Torn Armor a refund for the service that wouldn't be able to be delivered on and cancelled their agreement, not keep the TA money and say oops your bad.
The first thing Defiance should have done, and any other miniatures company using freelance digital sculptors as well, is to ask to see the files and inspect them BEFORE agreeing to any terms.
A simple NDA could have covered both parties.
DG could have taken a close look at the files to see how they were made and if they could work and what work (if any) would need to be done to fix them, then they could have proceeded further before agreeing to take on the job.
They could have seen the state the models were in and decide to back out. It's not that hard to test digital sculpts to see if they would work as 3D prints.
Once they had the files they could have their mold staff take a look at them as well to see if there would be any issues, which any competent moldmaker could do.
This is a failure on both parties, DG just have a "track record" of bad behavior so this situation is amplified in their direction.
Anyone else notice how they are referring to themselves as 'DFG'...
Really defiance games?!?
This is an obvious and frankly repulsive attempt to leech from the good name and hard work of Dream Forge Games... If I were Mark M, I'd be sharpening a legal letter and giving the attorneys the scent of the defiance crew.
prplehippo wrote: The first thing Defiance should have done, and any other miniatures company using freelance digital sculptors as well, is to ask to see the files and inspect them BEFORE agreeing to any terms.
A simple NDA could have covered both parties.
DG could have taken a close look at the files to see how they were made and if they could work and what work (if any) would need to be done to fix them, then they could have proceeded further before agreeing to take on the job.
They could have seen the state the models were in and decide to back out. It's not that hard to test digital sculpts to see if they would work as 3D prints.
Once they had the files they could have their mold staff take a look at them as well to see if there would be any issues, which any competent moldmaker could do.
This is a failure on both parties, DG just have a "track record" of bad behavior so this situation is amplified in their direction.
This is all assuming it wasn't a quick attempt by Tony to get a quick and easy cash injection before running off again. Considering "DFG's" reputation, that's a pretty naive assumption.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Anyone else notice how they are referring to themselves as 'DFG'...
Really defiance games?!?
This is an obvious and frankly repulsive attempt to leech from the good name and hard work of Dream Forge Games... If I were Mark M, I'd be sharpening a legal letter and giving the attorneys the scent of the defiance crew.
This defiance crew really are a bloody poor show.
I am pretty sure Mark is aware. I remember him posting something about contacting them about it (months ago), but then said things were cleared up.
Also he appears to have quiet a few blog posts clarifying Defiance DFG versus his own DFG. Also, a legal letter may mean nothing, unless Mark already had a registered trademark on it. For all we know (without searching on google, and I am lazy), is Mark may not even have a DBA as DFG.
theHandofGork wrote: On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
Not knowing the whole story of those specific actions, but seeing how Wargames Factory has flourished and Defiance has not, I wonder even if true if it was not a very smart tactic on the manufacturer's part. He may well have realized what he was dealing with and decided he did not feel like failing. Ditching Tony seems to have worked.
Two years ago, the information available was pretty murky. The Chinese company put out a statement that contradicted Tony, basically saying he had not paid for the work they did and they weren't releasing product that wasn't paid for. Still, up until that point, WGF had an ok track record and folks were quick to come to the side of the local boy vs the foreign company. DG was late with thier first product, but the UAMC marines were pretty good, and so Tony kept some good will.
That all changed when DG began to fail to meet deadlines and delivered a series of shoddy products. IIRC, even Tony's biggest supporter through the initial mess Howard Whitehouse eventually jumped ship for lack of payment and not having any faith in DG.
Two and a half years of hindsight makes a big difference when you can clearly see the downward trajectory.
theHandofGork wrote: On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
Not knowing the whole story of those specific actions, but seeing how Wargames Factory has flourished and Defiance has not, I wonder even if true if it was not a very smart tactic on the manufacturer's part. He may well have realized what he was dealing with and decided he did not feel like failing. Ditching Tony seems to have worked.
Two years ago, the information available was pretty murky. The Chinese company put out a statement that contradicted Tony, basically saying he had not paid for the work they did and they weren't releasing product that wasn't paid for. Still, up until that point, WGF had an ok track record and folks were quick to come to the side of the local boy vs the foreign company. DFG was late with thier first product, but the UAMC marines were pretty good, and so Tony kept some good will.
That all changed when DFG began to fail to meet deadlines and delivered a series of shoddy products. IIRC, even Tony's biggest supporter through the initial mess Howard Whitehouse eventually jumped ship for lack of payment and not having any faith in DFG.
Two and a half years of hindsight makes a big difference when you can clearly see the downward trajectory.
Are you talking about DFG: Dream Forge Games, or DG: Defiance Games?
I am sure you are not the only one who has done that Da Boss. It saddens me that Dream Forge games have probably lost some business due to their acronym being used by Defiance and others to talk about Defiance.
Dream Forge are a fantastic company by all accounts and are totally unlike Defiance.
carlos13th wrote: I am sure you are not the only one who has done that Da Boss. It saddens me that Dream Forge games have probably lost some business due to their acronym being used by Defiance and others to talk about Defiance.
Dream Forge are a fantastic company by all accounts and are totally unlike Defiance.
Ahhh cock - I avoided their KS as I thought they were all one and the same.
carlos13th wrote: I am sure you are not the only one who has done that Da Boss. It saddens me that Dream Forge games have probably lost some business due to their acronym being used by Defiance and others to talk about Defiance.
Dream Forge are a fantastic company by all accounts and are totally unlike Defiance.
Ahhh cock - I avoided their KS as I thought they were all one and the same.
Thats a shame. Bet you are not the only one either. I avoided DFG kick-starter only because I didn't have the cash at the time. Their leviathan was just too big for me to buy or store because I had no use for it but their troops are really nice and I plan on picking some up when I can.
DG kickstarters have the threads full of warnings, DFG kickstarters have the threads full of praise. Quite easy actually to distinguish between the two
Kroothawk wrote: DG kickstarters have the threads full of warnings, DFG kickstarters have the threads full of praise. Quite easy actually to distinguish between the two
Not if you dismiss out of hand and dont even go in and look p which I accept is my own stupid fault btw. It is just annoying.
This is Alyssa from Torn World. I have just been directed towards Rust Forge's post on page 8 and I have to say that knowing the conversations we were having with Defiance while their timeline was playing out makes me feel nauseous.
We apologize for the lack of updates! As you know we've been dealing with quite a bit in the background as we push this project forward.
As we mentioned last time, Kickstarter fulfillment is the complete focus of the company at this time. These new products will be the foundation on which we build out and launch more new products in the future.
We also made a decision with the Hardsuits and the German Mech that is changing the timeline. Originally we were just going to spin cast these in the same way as the Bugs, Chinese infantry, etc. But we realized the demand for these would be such - not just for the Kickstarter fulfillment but for long term as well - that it would make a lot of sense to have them injection molded.
The hard suits will be a restic style plastic - the material is very similar to what we are doing with the spin cast. The mechs - knock on wood if all goes well - will be high impact polystyrene (HIPS) and can be put together with plastic glue.
We did an extensive search and vetting of potential outsource manufacturing partners and chose a factory in China to work with. They have done quite a bit of work in the games industry and we've been impressed with their capabilities. Chinese New Year messed with our schedule a bit - that's a 3-4 week hiatus in China - but we are now back on track with them. We don't have a final date for the hard suits yet but we're working on that with them.
There are a lot of balls in the air and a lot is going on. We are taking it all slow and steady and day by day. We want to make sure we make the best product we possibly can. We will do our best to keep everyone up to speed as we go along. Thanks again for your support!
We do need more miniatures companies that work in HIPS, but I see no reason to believe that the mech will be any less ineptly handled than every single thing they have ever touched.
We apologize for the lack of updates! As you know we've been dealing with quite a bit in the background as we push this project forward.
As we mentioned last time, Kickstarter fulfillment is the complete focus of the company at this time. These new products will be the foundation on which we build out and launch more new products in the future.
We also made a decision with the Hardsuits and the German Mech that is changing the timeline. Originally we were just going to spin cast these in the same way as the Bugs, Chinese infantry, etc. But we realized the demand for these would be such - not just for the Kickstarter fulfillment but for long term as well - that it would make a lot of sense to have them injection molded.
The hard suits will be a restic style plastic - the material is very similar to what we are doing with the spin cast. The mechs - knock on wood if all goes well - will be high impact polystyrene (HIPS) and can be put together with plastic glue.
We did an extensive search and vetting of potential outsource manufacturing partners and chose a factory in China to work with. They have done quite a bit of work in the games industry and we've been impressed with their capabilities. Chinese New Year messed with our schedule a bit - that's a 3-4 week hiatus in China - but we are now back on track with them. We don't have a final date for the hard suits yet but we're working on that with them.
There are a lot of balls in the air and a lot is going on. We are taking it all slow and steady and day by day. We want to make sure we make the best product we possibly can. We will do our best to keep everyone up to speed as we go along. Thanks again for your support!
Discuss amongst yourselves!
Anyone who thinks that these figures will ever come out should ask nurse to take away the sharp cutty things and then buy the bridge I have for sale. IMHO
Necros wrote: A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?
Ha! If it is them they of all people will know to do cash upfront.
FYI (and OT - sorry but thought hit me) I just bought WGF celts. Very good models for the price. 32 celts, 1 chariot box (3 chariots) and 10 cav. All were around $20 to $25 a box! Molding was good and for that price I was very impressed.
Do you think Tony has already drafted the 'Our Chinese partners screwed us out of all our money and it is their fault we cannot deliver unless each of you backers ponies up XXX more dollars' update?
For what it's worth I'd like to see em make real plastic models. I liked the looks of those suits a lot.. And even though I did get the bugs I ordered, I don't think I'd order direct from them again, but I'll pick a few up if they make it to store shelves
They're a cancer on the industry. Hope they crash and burn and stay down and never see another cent that could go to creative, competent, honest companies.
And the beauty of it is... some people are actually buying the "we've submitted stuff to be made in China, but the change in material will require a wee delay."
I'd be in stitches if it weren't so pathetic. Yes, Defiance does need to be taken down.
The funny thing is that, yes: with the volume ordered via the KS it is highly likely that it would be cheaper (and certainly more consistent!) to produce those hardsuits in restic than in what passes for their trollcast-ripoff which seems hard enough to work with/in even if you do know what you're doing (mechs in HIPS does strain credulity).
Whatever they do, that reputation is never, ever going to change anymore. God, I'd love those suits in decent (at least predictable quality equal to reviews!) plastic/restic but what a shame it has to be this bunch...
Just to say, I was hopelessly idealistic and contacted Kickstarter regarding this. After a patronizing form reply that showed where and how to contact a project creator, I sent them links to conversations and forums and articles about Defiance Games, and all they say is that Kickstarters usually run late when they are very successful, and look, he's not even past his last date.
So basically, piss off, man, we got our percentage.
Kickstarter have a straightforward proposition, consonant with normal contract law.
Kickstarter's job is to host the project description, take pledges, collect the money if the project gets funded, and pass the money minus a commission to the project company.
I guess Kickstarter look at project ideas and reject ones that are clearly nonsense/impossible, however it is not their responsibility to judge the level of risk, to make projects work, or to chase project companies whose projects fail.
Wouldn't it be better to get someone from one of the online "news" sites (if you can call them that) like the escapist? I recall seeing them especially bringing up articles about would be scam jobs on kickstarter that would have been otherwise exactly what Mathieu Raymond experienced (that is the "we got our percentage" thing i mean).
Kickstarter has cancelled active projects due to information revealing that it is either a scam or extraordinarily shady. I believe the jerky one from last year was cancelled with only hours remaining after some backers did a little digging and determined it was complete garbage.
They've actively and even aggressively separated themselves from responsibility/culpability, but that doesn't mean they don't want phony or even highly questionable projects to run wild. Given that they (and Amazon) receive a percentage of the funds taken, they have a vested interest in making at least a token effort to not have the brand name sullied or besmirched by projects that just walk off with the cash. While their funding itself isn't jeopardized, the loss of backer confidence could very well impact their bottom line.
Granted, I'm sure very few people who say "omg this KS has huge delays and gaky communications, I'll never back a KS again!" actually refrain from ever participating again, some do follow through on that, and others will be significantly more resilient to participate, and of those that still do, many may well contribute less than they might have otherwise, all of which lead to fewer backers, lower funding, and less cash for both the projects and KS/Amazon.
Now, to be clear, I'm speaking generally here. One shady company walking away with 42k or so after KS/A took their cut isn't going to cripple their site or the industry, but enough issues across enough projects could indeed have some impact.
So, yeah, report campaigns that you feel are shady, explain why clearly, present evidence where possible, and spread the word. Doesn't mean you need to pledge a dollar and hound them in the comments for weeks, but helping people make informed choices is something to be lauded.
General Hobbs wrote: What's up with Mantic Men at Arms? I was about to order some Mantic stuff, should I be wary?
You know how when there's something really popular, you'll sometimes see other companies making gakky knockoffs? Well Mantic cut out the middleman. The Men at Arms are literally a gakky Chinese knockoff of the Men at Arms Mantic was trying to have cast. Not that that stopped them putting them up for sale or sending them to the people who paid for the real deal.
If you want Men at Arms, buy Perry's War of the Roses infantry. Failing that, wait and see what these are like.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Just to say, I was hopelessly idealistic and contacted Kickstarter regarding this. After a patronizing form reply that showed where and how to contact a project creator, I sent them links to conversations and forums and articles about Defiance Games, and all they say is that Kickstarters usually run late when they are very successful, and look, he's not even past his last date.
So basically, piss off, man, we got our percentage.
You realize their are kickstarters that has failed and the creators straight up said not to expect anything from them?
If you go to "sad pictures for children" kickstarter, and can watch a video of the creator burning the books he owes people because he ran out of money to ship them and didn't want to deal with it any more.
Kickstarter told these people it's up to them to organize them selves and take the creators to court. The big thing about the defiance one is that i don't think a kickstarter this big has ever failed before.
You realize their are kickstarters that has failed and the creators straight up said not to expect anything from them?
If you go to "sad pictures for children" kickstarter, and can watch a video of the creator burning the books he owes people because he ran out of money to ship them and didn't want to deal with it any more.
You realize their are kickstarters that has failed and the creators straight up said not to expect anything from them?
If you go to "sad pictures for children" kickstarter, and can watch a video of the creator burning the books he owes people because he ran out of money to ship them and didn't want to deal with it any more.
The big thing about the defiance one is that i don't think a kickstarter this big has ever failed before.
I followed those links. There aren't even words for the first guy, and the second sounds like a slow decent into insanity.
My lord. I'm glad I'm careful with my Kickstarter money.
Yah, John Campbell is a scum bag. Even people emailing and saying "Hey, do you need more money for shipping or something?" got their books burned. He then has the nerve to accuse his fans are the reason the kickstarter failed. He also says they failed him because he was not able to make any money to live off the kickstarter and that they should bassicly be giveing him free money to live off of.
Self-entilied only scratchs the surface of that man's ego.
In the defence of the 2nd one, it's more a case of a tragic event happening to the creator then anything eals. I don't feel their was anything malicious on her part. schizophrenia dosen't devlope untill you reach adulthood, and when it comes on it hits like a truck.
I am in awe. How the hell do people like this not get lynched? Or thrown into an institution, which seems to be needed in the second case.
From what I can tell this one was more down to (pinch of salt) "actual medical condition". Schizophrenia (and others depending on what this actually ended up being) doesn't always exactly make sense to outsiders looking in, and people taking potshots like the above screencap don't help matters.
I only brought thows two up due to them being the more extreme examples of kickstarters hands off approtch. The 1st creator straight up said he failed. Its now up to the crowd to organize their own legal action is kickstarter's policy.
The 2nd one is a example of how bad a kickstarter can go.
I am in awe. How the hell do people like this not get lynched? Or thrown into an institution, which seems to be needed in the second case.
From what I can tell this one was more down to (pinch of salt) "actual medical condition". Schizophrenia (and others depending on what this actually ended up being) doesn't always exactly make sense to outsiders looking in, and people taking potshots like the above screencap don't help matters.
I grew up around the mentally ill most my life. So i have seen 1st hand how mental illness deatroys people's lifes. I do wish the best for her.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Just to say, I was hopelessly idealistic and contacted Kickstarter regarding this. After a patronizing form reply that showed where and how to contact a project creator, I sent them links to conversations and forums and articles about Defiance Games, and all they say is that Kickstarters usually run late when they are very successful, and look, he's not even past his last date.
So basically, piss off, man, we got our percentage.
You realize their are kickstarters that has failed and the creators straight up said not to expect anything from them?
If you go to "sad pictures for children" kickstarter, and can watch a video of the creator burning the books he owes people because he ran out of money to ship them and didn't want to deal with it any more.
Kickstarter told these people it's up to them to organize them selves and take the creators to court. The big thing about the defiance one is that i don't think a kickstarter this big has ever failed before.
Wow . The second person just seems to have mental issues, but the first guy is brazen. Pretty sure I'd have gone out of my way to get money back on that one (even if just from KS through a credit card claim) if I'd been involved. I mean, he literally burned the product. Heh.
Hell, even projects that are being run with actual companies behind them can waffle about and fail for years on end.
Ogre is the obvious example of this, but an ongoing example would be Palladium Books' campaign for their new Robotech Miniatures line. Currently undergoing a bit of a cluster-feth in the update comments over some less than stellar prototype pics, 3 months late currently, projected to be at least another 4 months before they can deliver half of what they promised backers, with the other half due "at the end of the year" (spoiler alert: we'll be lucky to see it before mid 2015).
OGRE turned into a mini disaster for me. I backed it before it even became a Kickstarter -- meaning I registered on the Steve Jackson Games site when they started gathering support to remake the game.
I backed it when it became a Kickstarter. I had to reduce my pledge from a full game level to just the PDF rules and scenarios books, because they decided to make the game so big that it was going to be too expensive to ship to the UK. I never got my PDFs, even though I registered for them, so basically I wasted $25. The whole process took about three years.
I probably could get the PDFs by contacting SJG directly but the whole project has been such a long, sad disappointment that I sort of feel like I don't want anything to do with it any more. Which is a bit sad given I am a huge OGRE fan and still have the original pocket game versions published 35 years ago.
I'm pretty sure they'd send the pdf if asked, though, as he even says...
However, I did not back this- I bought it from a disillusioned backer right after . So, I really can't relate to the frustration on this one, but I'm sure the absolutely massive delay was a turn off.
Kilkrazy wrote:Kickstarter have a straightforward proposition, consonant with normal contract law.
Kickstarter's job is to host the project description, take pledges, collect the money if the project gets funded, and pass the money minus a commission to the project company.
I guess Kickstarter look at project ideas and reject ones that are clearly nonsense/impossible, however it is not their responsibility to judge the level of risk, to make projects work, or to chase project companies whose projects fail.
Yes, I totally agree. I'm not looking for my money. I just want Defiance tarred and feathered. Why? So others don't get taken in for a serious amount of money. Mine was a pittance. Kickstarter though ought to have a "button" that paints the campaign page red saying in big bold letters:"Creater reneged on obligations. Campaign officially defunct" or something.
Necros wrote: A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?
Probably the same company that made the mantic games men-at-arms.
Wargames Factory handiling production would be good news for everyone involved.
If they go with who did the Mantic Men-At-Arms then the whole thing just got even stinkier.
I somehow *strongly* doubt that Wargames Factory would touch a Defiance product. Unless they got to keep the rights, distribution and a significant share of the profit. If they did, then yes they'd probably rock.
Lockark wrote:
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Just to say, I was hopelessly idealistic and contacted Kickstarter regarding this. After a patronizing form reply that showed where and how to contact a project creator, I sent them links to conversations and forums and articles about Defiance Games, and all they say is that Kickstarters usually run late when they are very successful, and look, he's not even past his last date.
So basically, piss off, man, we got our percentage.
You realize their are kickstarters that has failed and the creators straight up said not to expect anything from them?
If you go to "sad pictures for children" kickstarter, and can watch a video of the creator burning the books he owes people because he ran out of money to ship them and didn't want to deal with it any more.
Kickstarter told these people it's up to them to organize them selves and take the creators to court. The big thing about the defiance one is that i don't think a kickstarter this big has ever failed before.
I was only aware of the "Monopoly in New Joysey" campaign. Those are... well they are what they are. O_o Yeah, I think bigger fish have drowned in other segments of the kickstarter ocean.
Again, I just wish there was not a corner of the Earth where they could run that anyone would want to deal with them. Not even sue them in a grand gesture... just a slow sputter and then Defiance closing its doors, forever. The daemons laid to rest.
Someone who has been gypped by Defiance should put together a case for the small claims court.
It isn't Kickstarter's job. In US law they would not be able to sue Defiance as they are not parties to the violated contract so do not have "standing" as I think it is called.
Given the evidence of the proposed contract is very clearly available on the Kickstarter site, it should be easy to assemble a clear timeline and packet of evidence to ask for one's money back.
If several people wanted to organise together, much of the evidence would be the same and you could share it. The bit that would be specific to each person is their own payment info.
I know class action is a big thing in the USA, however in this case, a series of small claims might actually be a bigger problem for Defiance. They might simply fold their tents if hit with a large class suit -- if that is even possible -- whereas they might think they can successfully defend or ignore a relatively minor small claim.
Necros wrote: A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?
Probably the same company that made the mantic games men-at-arms.
Wargames Factory handiling production would be good news for everyone involved.
If they go with who did the Mantic Men-At-Arms then the whole thing just got even stinkier.
Just for the record: Tony will never contact Wargames Factory, as the company was founded by him and eventually he was driven off, sort of hostile take-over by the Chinese manufacturer. There are threads about this battle.
I have a real feeling that people are not getting their product and this KS is doomed. No updates for a while - if they were working hard their would be updates. Time for people to start hitting up the small claims.
Necros wrote: A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?
Probably the same company that made the mantic games men-at-arms.
Wargames Factory handiling production would be good news for everyone involved.
If they go with who did the Mantic Men-At-Arms then the whole thing just got even stinkier.
Just for the record: Tony will never contact Wargames Factory, as the company was founded by him and eventually he was driven off, sort of hostile take-over by the Chinese manufacturer. There are threads about this battle.
For the completeness of the record, Tony gave a 51% share in WGF to the Chinese manufacturer who he owed money to instead of repaying the money. Then Tony went off about it. My involvement was as a customer who was going to take a chance on buying some WGF product to build for a Christmas present.....oops, I guess I can try for a birthday present...oops, everyone ran away.
As for Tony, he claimed all of these orders that had been backlogged for two months were wrapped & ready for shipment. I happened to get in contact with one of the guys on the ground involved in the "hostile takeover" who noted that one of the triggers was Tony telling his Chinese majority partner that he had to have money to pay for the postage for all these orders. From the same source, I got pictures showing piles and piles of unpacked product in the shipping facility. Nothing packaged and ready to go, nothing even sorted out into orders from three months prior.
I've had one try at getting something from Defiance Games. Fortunately it was through Neal's Warstore and eventually Neal told me he was going to refund my money for that item because after months on backorder, Defiance still had not shipped him product he had a customer for.
Not all roses on WGF on the customer service front, although I think now it was an unintended blunder. As they were sorting out three or so months of orders (including ones that Tony never provided records for) and trying to get product produced (Tony had orders for stuff that was out of stock) and then get it out the door as fast as they could.....for the last bulk shipment, they forgot to put in any of the freebies they promised to all the customers as an apology. Otherwise, they produce inexpensive product of good quality. Sure, the minis often need a touch more work but they are a lot less expensive than most.
I belive it's been down for a couple of weeks now. People been asking about it on face book and the kickstarter, and they've been quite. It's not a good sign for the circus that is Defiance Games.
Just incase anyone was thinking they might actually get some product it looks like DG is now also in arrears with its taxes or at least a deliquency notice exists for 2014 now (having been issued one in 2013 as well).
No updates on the website or the KS for over a month. The word DOOM springs to mind.
Personally, this type of business and the way they seem to phoenix is no better than Mandlebaum. The beginnin, the middle and end result is the same.
doc1234 wrote: So does that mean we'll be seeing another KS campaign in 6 months time under a new name? (Speaking of which I wonder what DM is up to lately)
Now you mention it, I am surprised DM hasn't tried this. Showing making an effort like Defiance then bomb and keep all the money. No-one likely to sue as it seems hard to get money. He has enough aliases to pull this off a few times.
doc1234 wrote: So does that mean we'll be seeing another KS campaign in 6 months time under a new name? (Speaking of which I wonder what DM is up to lately)
Now you mention it, I am surprised DM hasn't tried this. Showing making an effort like Defiance then bomb and keep all the money. No-one likely to sue as it seems hard to get money. He has enough aliases to pull this off a few times.
I did speculate that in one of the last DM threads, someone gave a few reasons about needing to provide KS start up documentation and it still being taxed or whatever, but it's still a route i'm surprised he hasn't taken. Though i'd love to see DG sending out another announcement of the new company head, Mr Mendlemodel.
Someone from the backers of this clusterfeth has contacted Torn Armor's people and apparently, they can't say much, because a bunch of them are getting ready to sue Defiance, which might explain why Tony isn't speaking to the outside world.
Although I don't think the backers have a chance in hell in a class action, and I'm not about to bother due to being in for 25$ or so, and being a foreigner, this could be entertaining to watch.
I don't recall if anyone has summarized this here or recently. but I just checked the Defiance Games website and..
-Web store is still "closed for maintenance" .
-Last news posting was December 13th
-Last forum post by anyone was May 22nd. Last forum post by anyone from DG appears to be months prior to that.
Added to the fact that the last Kickstarter update was February 28th!
Has anyone heard anything recently about this. I very deliberately didn't bet any money on this one, but morbid curiosity compels me to ask.
They told me they loved me. They wouldn't do this anymore, they'd change!
Seriously, it's 25$. I'm over it. But at least, from what I can gather, forces are moving to sue Tony Reidy en masse. Not the KS backers, but industry people.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: They told me they loved me. They wouldn't do this anymore, they'd change!
Seriously, it's 25$. I'm over it. But at least, from what I can gather, forces are moving to sue Tony Reidy en masse. Not the KS backers, but industry people.
Hm with any luck they'll have to sell whatever IP they have to make up for it and these marines and stuff will get a proper company making them. Like last time.
Tony Reidy was the original owner of Wargames Factory. He defaulted on various deals and loans and the Chinese company "Ghost Studio" that was producing his figures took the company away from him. He raised quite a stink and alot of folks were really on his side when he then opened "Defiance Games". However, it was not long before more of what had happened at WGF came to light, and Defiance began to show a less-competent side that most people came to realize that in fact he was not the victim that he purported to be and that Ghost Studio had been at least within their rights to take over.
The subsequent success enjoyed by WGF in producing and improving their own lines and producing the excellent DreamForge Games lines of mecha and soldiers compared to Defiance' slow decent into mediocrity culminating in the malarky that has been outlined in this thread has lent much credence to the later narrative.
Tony Reidy was the original owner of Wargames Factory. He defaulted on various deals and loans and the Chinese company "Ghost Studio" that was producing his figures took the company away from him. He raised quite a stink and alot of folks were really on his side when he then opened "Defiance Games". However, it was not long before more of what had happened at WGF came to light, and Defiance began to show a less-competent side that most people came to realize that in fact he was not the victim that he purported to be and that Ghost Studio had been at least within their rights to take over.
The subsequent success enjoyed by WGF in producing and improving their own lines and producing the excellent DreamForge Games lines of mecha and soldiers compared to Defiance' slow decent into mediocrity culminating in the malarky that has been outlined in this thread has lent much credence to the later narrative.
Wonderful summary, and well-written to boot. I did not know Tony had any previous association with WGF.
Wonderful summary, and well-written to boot. I did not know Tony had any previous association with WGF.
Thanks!
There's alot more to the story, including one of my favorite indie companies "Proxie Models" being denied payment for product received until a huge internet backlash forced Defiance to return the product. If you're interested in further info, a google search for "Defiance games Tony Reidy" and "Wargames Factory Tony Reidy" will give you more than you'll want. It's interesting to watch the anger at WGF in early 2011 turn into disappointment and frustration with WGF by the end of 2012 and early 2013. I even stumbled across some messages where I expressed disappointment with WGF.
Wonderful summary, and well-written to boot. I did not know Tony had any previous association with WGF.
Thanks!
There's alot more to the story, including one of my favorite indie companies "Proxie Models" being denied payment for product received until a huge internet backlash forced Defiance to return the product. If you're interested in further info, a google search for "Defiance games Tony Reidy" and "Wargames Factory Tony Reidy" will give you more than you'll want. It's interesting to watch the anger at WGF in early 2011 turn into disappointment and frustration with WGF by the end of 2012 and early 2013. I even stumbled across some messages where I expressed disappointment with WGF.
Interesting, I hadn't heard that. While I wasn't rooting for him, I did think that WGF had stolen the company, I also thought that Tony was dumb enough to let it happen.
Instead, Tony proves his dishonesty, and WGF becomes a well respected manufacturer.
In the meantime, the original creative team has all come together and we are shortly to be launching full ranges of hard plastic miniatures under our new company – Defiance Games.
We’ll let the quality and release schedule speak for us going forward.
Thanks everyone – and I’m sorry again to have all this nonsense “out there”
Well, when I order from WGF I get my product. It is very well packaged, the casting is pretty dang good and the mini's hit the right mix of cost and detail for historical gaming.
When people order from Defiance .......need I expand?
Oh, what a trip down memory lane. I was there when it happened
Nice to be reminded who was still sucking Tony's at that point and who saw right through him (Antenocities!)
Yeah,
Thanks for posting that. think i recall reading the same thing on TMP and seeing similar disucssions there. As you point out, it's very interesting (and something I didn't remember reading) was seeing how well Antenocities saw what was happening.
The whole thing was a mess. I had been pretty active on Wargames Factory's forum especially regarding their Liberty and Union customer developed products. By the time Tony was ejected I had left, disappointed by the slow pace and missed deadlines. However, under the new management, I was pleasantly surprised to see how (relatively) quickly quite a few of the most popular products that I recalled from my days on the forum were released under the new management. Zombies, Orcs, WSS, Survivors, WW2 Germans etc., many of these were products suggested by WGF customers.
LOL. If I'm reading that right they are going to make the models available on Shapeways so that people can buy them a second time if they already paid for them through the Kickstarter...
lol. So you can get the digital file and print it yourself or print, at cost, through shapeways. Only $5000 in equipment and sundries which begs the question of where all the other money went...
I had been in communication with the concept artist that made the hardsuit in order to obtain the rights to produce a model for it, but Defiance snagged it.
Well, at least the file will be out there. What are the odds the file will hit TPB?
I guess the other good thing about this is that gamers can have the model printed in different scales so 15mm gamers can also have them.
What prompted this? Did one of the backers pursue legal action in Massachusetts, or is that just where Defiance is located?
Transcribed for folks:
Mazonson Law Office, P.C.
R.OUNRU.ORS AT LAW'
November 12, 2014
Via Fax to 617-727-3265 & First Class Mail
Nicholas Synowiec
Deputy Director - PIAC
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office of the Attorney General
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108
Re: Defiance Games, LLC Consumer Complaints
Dear Mr. Synowiec;
As you are aware, my office represents Anthony M. Reidy and Defiance Games,
LLC with respect to ongoing insolvency proceedings as regards Anthony M. Reidy,
personally, soon to be filed insolvency proceedings as regards Defiance Games, LLC,
and the winding down of the affairs of such corporate entity.
Pursuant to our various discussions as regards consumer complaints lodged with
your office. Defiance Games, LLC would like to take this opportunity to accept your
invitation to engage in mediation, insofar as it makes the offer of restitution found below.
As we have discussed, neither Bankruptcy should yield assets for distribution to
unsecured creditors as the entirety of any corporate assets consist mainly of a small
quantity of raw materials and a spin casting machine valued at less than $5,000.00. As
such, the company and Mr. Reidy make the offer found below as an effort at resolving
this matter amicably, while hoping to communicate the understanding that this is, indeed,
the entirety of what is available to be offered.
Defiance Games, LLC, by and through its principal, Anthony M. Reidy, hereby
offers to any "kickstarter" sponsor who did not receive the products associated with their
pledge as follows;
Defiance Games will provide 3D print-ready files to sponsors meeting the
eligibility criteria above. These files will be made available both via
Shapeways.com and also through direct download, allowing sponsors the option
to print with an alternative service or other home-based printing option of their
choice. For Shapeways printing, the files will be offered at Shapeways cost - i.e.
with no additional charges or profit margin added to the pricing. If backers
choose to print via other options they will have full control over the files to print
for personal use. Files and prints may not be resold or made available to the
general public outside of the "kickstarter" sponsor group.
Defiance Games, LLC will further make available to sponsors meeting the
eligibility criteria above the STL files for the "UAMC Hardsuits" set along with
the "German Mech" set. Finally, the STL files for the "UAMC JRAB" vehicle
and "Hudson's Bugs" will also be made available for production. These items
were not part of the "kickstarter," but are being offered as a good-faith offer of
additional restitutiGn. Defiance Games, LLC regrets that it cannot do more, but
hopes this olive branch will be well-received by its customer base to which the
Company is eternally grateful.
Please transmit the foregoing offer to any aggrieved parties and feel free to
contact me with any questions or concerns.
I appreciate your time and attention to this matter.
Very truly yours,
Evan P. Lowney, Esq.
(508) 689-4753 (direct)
Cc: Anthony M. Reidy
That's insane but completely unsurprising, of course, given everything that was known about Defiance before, during, and after the Kickstarter.
Everyone who backed this....well, you deserved to lose money on it. I mean good god, it was Reidy! Youd have had more luck of tossing some lead in the air during a thunderstorm and having it hit by lightning and turn to gold than have good old Tony fulfill this. Count yourself lucky you even have a slight chance of getting anything, even if it is a terrible deal and another one of Tony's slaps in the face to the community.
Pete Melvin wrote: Everyone who backed this....well, you deserved to lose money on it. I mean good god, it was Reidy! Youd have had more luck of tossing some lead in the air during a thunderstorm and having it hit by lightning and turn to gold than have good old Tony fulfill this. Count yourself lucky you even have a slight chance of getting anything, even if it is a terrible deal and another one of Tony's slaps in the face to the community.
But it seemed like such a great deal! And EggSuitedDropTroopers! And they said it was different and that Tony wasn't in charge!
Despite the fubar nature of this project, having the 3D files made available (ostensibly only to backers, but I think some may be willing to share after all they've been through) could end up being quite cool... doesn't help those who actually paid money for physical sculpts, though.
I pledged $25 just for the entertainment value, and I'm not sorry. The Torn Armor scam, on the other hand, pisses me off.
Now, wasn't there some fine gentleman on this board looking to unlad a box of Hudson's Bugs? How much did he want for them, again? I think I'll go for them when I get some holiday cash.
If they were stupid, there would still be movement in production, along with more obvious stupidity in media.
Also sad to hear that they somehow snagged the copyright on the hardsuit from the artist.
But you know what, I know literally 10 different artists that can design a suit that looks just as good, if not better. They're not cheap to hire, but good work never is.
I wonder if there's a market for someone to pickup the ball, I already have a hardsuit unit in my game. I wonder if there is still an interest in a product that will actually make it to market.
The only silver lining is that the files will be out there and in a few years the printing costs will be much more reasonable and high-resolution machines will be in more public facilities.
I deliberately avoided this KS, but I might very well print up a few battle-eggs and maybe a couple of trucks at my local public library's 3d printer in a couple years.
stl files can be fed through a CNC machine to produce plastic injection molds.
3D printing uses an oddball plastic and the things I have seen usually look a bit grainy. The high end stuff looks good but that costs more.
I still follow this company out of a strange fascination. I am trying to find out when the assets go on sale. If anyone learns of this information please inform me.
paulson games wrote: If my source is correct, (and I have very little reason to doubt him) it all went to strippers, booze and a new car. Literally.
So is the guy a straight-up thief or just massively stupid?
Little of column A, little of column B.
Although I can't really talk, I fell for their song and dance for a while too. At least I only went in on the UAMC way back when they actually made things and didn't fall for anything pas that.
Which really sucks, because there were some cool ideas there if they hadn't dropped the ball so hard it went through the floor.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Oh no, this was of our own making, we bear our cross, and all that jazz. Sorry you missed the party though, the implosion was epic.
Totally worth $25.
Or so I tell myself.
If I hadn't been screwed twice via Torn Armor, I'd laugh the whole thing off. Dutch door action.
Yeah, but it might take a while since they sold their soul for Reaper to er, forge the dream, if you get me. I expect the delays to have delays. And the final product will probably be more wildly uneven than a Mantic troll with one foot in boiling water.
When a company gives all your money to a guy who somehow lost a business making the only alternative plastic sci-fi troops on the market twice, well you can't really expect them to worry about the details.
When Torn Armor's Kickstarter campaign over funded, the manufacturer they had negotiated with suddenly raised their prices dramatically, so they began to shop around. That's when Tony Reidy convinced them that he could manufacture the miniatures for their game, and they gave him a huge advance. You can probably guess what happened next.
Shame they went under, while not the best models, you have to agree they where a nice change in pace from the other games out there. And a little cheaper too. I would of loved to of seen where they went with their ideas. I feel half tempted to buy all their licences and start the company over and continue with some of their ideas. Minus the debt they owe, and the bad press they have. But I'm a humble college student studying something else completely. ^^;
Not a shame at all, they were a blight on the industry and impacted multiple genuinely innovative, passionate creators and manufacturers.
They commissioned some decent concept art, produced some miniatures that barely resembled that art and then poorly cast them because they were too arrogant and cheap to pay someone who knew what they were doing.
Not everyone deserves success. With these guys, if they had found a warehouse of poorly made furnaces they would have been revolutionizing the local residential heating/ exploding furnace industry before vanishing with other peoples money.
'Went under' isn't, I think, the best description of what happened.
And a little cheaper too. I would of loved to of seen where they went with their ideas.
You saw where they went with their ideas. A bunch of people sank cash into a Kickstarter, and Tony Reidy spent that cash. That, I would suspect, was the idea.
Well, slight necro but I think we can pretty much confirm 100% that this is dead the water, and the company is dead, and we're not seeing anything of this project.
. The second person just seems to have mental issues, but the first guy is brazen. Pretty sure I'd have gone out of my way to get money back on that one (even if just from 
at that point and who saw right through him (Antenocities!)
