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I'm pretty sure they'd send the pdf if asked, though, as he even says...

However, I did not back this- I bought it from a disillusioned backer right after . So, I really can't relate to the frustration on this one, but I'm sure the absolutely massive delay was a turn off.

Kilkrazy wrote:Kickstarter have a straightforward proposition, consonant with normal contract law.

Kickstarter's job is to host the project description, take pledges, collect the money if the project gets funded, and pass the money minus a commission to the project company.

I guess Kickstarter look at project ideas and reject ones that are clearly nonsense/impossible, however it is not their responsibility to judge the level of risk, to make projects work, or to chase project companies whose projects fail.

Yes, I totally agree. I'm not looking for my money. I just want Defiance tarred and feathered. Why? So others don't get taken in for a serious amount of money. Mine was a pittance. Kickstarter though ought to have a "button" that paints the campaign page red saying in big bold letters:"Creater reneged on obligations. Campaign officially defunct" or something.

Eilif wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Necros wrote:
A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?

Probably the same company that made the mantic games men-at-arms.

Wargames Factory handiling production would be good news for everyone involved.

If they go with who did the Mantic Men-At-Arms then the whole thing just got even stinkier.

I somehow *strongly* doubt that Wargames Factory would touch a Defiance product. Unless they got to keep the rights, distribution and a significant share of the profit. If they did, then yes they'd probably rock.

Lockark wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Just to say, I was hopelessly idealistic and contacted Kickstarter regarding this. After a patronizing form reply that showed where and how to contact a project creator, I sent them links to conversations and forums and articles about Defiance Games, and all they say is that Kickstarters usually run late when they are very successful, and look, he's not even past his last date.

So basically, piss off, man, we got our percentage.

You realize their are kickstarters that has failed and the creators straight up said not to expect anything from them?

If you go to "sad pictures for children" kickstarter, and can watch a video of the creator burning the books he owes people because he ran out of money to ship them and didn't want to deal with it any more.

Let's also not forget this classic:
The sun told me to stop working on my board game

Kickstarter told these people it's up to them to organize them selves and take the creators to court. The big thing about the defiance one is that i don't think a kickstarter this big has ever failed before.

I was only aware of the "Monopoly in New Joysey" campaign. Those are... well they are what they are. O_o Yeah, I think bigger fish have drowned in other segments of the kickstarter ocean.

Again, I just wish there was not a corner of the Earth where they could run that anyone would want to deal with them. Not even sue them in a grand gesture... just a slow sputter and then Defiance closing its doors, forever. The daemons laid to rest.

Someone who has been gypped by Defiance should put together a case for the small claims court.

It isn't Kickstarter's job. In US law they would not be able to sue Defiance as they are not parties to the violated contract so do not have "standing" as I think it is called.

Given the evidence of the proposed contract is very clearly available on the Kickstarter site, it should be easy to assemble a clear timeline and packet of evidence to ask for one's money back.

If several people wanted to organise together, much of the evidence would be the same and you could share it. The bit that would be specific to each person is their own payment info.

I know class action is a big thing in the USA, however in this case, a series of small claims might actually be a bigger problem for Defiance. They might simply fold their tents if hit with a large class suit -- if that is even possible -- whereas they might think they can successfully defend or ignore a relatively minor small claim.

 Eilif wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Necros wrote:
A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?

Probably the same company that made the mantic games men-at-arms.

Wargames Factory handiling production would be good news for everyone involved.
If they go with who did the Mantic Men-At-Arms then the whole thing just got even stinkier.

Just for the record: Tony will never contact Wargames Factory, as the company was founded by him and eventually he was driven off, sort of hostile take-over by the Chinese manufacturer. There are threads about this battle.

I have a real feeling that people are not getting their product and this KS is doomed. No updates for a while - if they were working hard their would be updates. Time for people to start hitting up the small claims.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Necros wrote:
A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?

Probably the same company that made the mantic games men-at-arms.

Wargames Factory handiling production would be good news for everyone involved.
If they go with who did the Mantic Men-At-Arms then the whole thing just got even stinkier.

Just for the record: Tony will never contact Wargames Factory, as the company was founded by him and eventually he was driven off, sort of hostile take-over by the Chinese manufacturer. There are threads about this battle.

For the completeness of the record, Tony gave a 51% share in WGF to the Chinese manufacturer who he owed money to instead of repaying the money. Then Tony went off about it. My involvement was as a customer who was going to take a chance on buying some WGF product to build for a Christmas present.....oops, I guess I can try for a birthday present...oops, everyone ran away.

As for Tony, he claimed all of these orders that had been backlogged for two months were wrapped & ready for shipment. I happened to get in contact with one of the guys on the ground involved in the "hostile takeover" who noted that one of the triggers was Tony telling his Chinese majority partner that he had to have money to pay for the postage for all these orders. From the same source, I got pictures showing piles and piles of unpacked product in the shipping facility. Nothing packaged and ready to go, nothing even sorted out into orders from three months prior.

I've had one try at getting something from Defiance Games. Fortunately it was through Neal's Warstore and eventually Neal told me he was going to refund my money for that item because after months on backorder, Defiance still had not shipped him product he had a customer for.

Not all roses on WGF on the customer service front, although I think now it was an unintended blunder. As they were sorting out three or so months of orders (including ones that Tony never provided records for) and trying to get product produced (Tony had orders for stuff that was out of stock) and then get it out the door as fast as they could.....for the last bulk shipment, they forgot to put in any of the freebies they promised to all the customers as an apology. Otherwise, they produce inexpensive product of good quality. Sure, the minis often need a touch more work but they are a lot less expensive than most.

Did their website go down?

Sining wrote:
Did their website go down?

I belive it's been down for a couple of weeks now. People been asking about it on face book and the kickstarter, and they've been quite. It's not a good sign for the circus that is Defiance Games.

Ugh... although it's not as if the writing wasn't on the wall from the very start of this, even while the campaign was running...

Yeah defiance has been pissing me off as well seeing that they haven't updated or anything

btw their german mech is on shapeways but is not for sale
http://www.shapeways.com/model/972348/german-mech.html?li=search-results&materialId=90

Just incase anyone was thinking they might actually get some product it looks like DG is now also in arrears with its taxes or at least a deliquency notice exists for 2014 now (having been issued one in 2013 as well).

No updates on the website or the KS for over a month. The word DOOM springs to mind.

Personally, this type of business and the way they seem to phoenix is no better than Mandlebaum. The beginnin, the middle and end result is the same.

So does that mean we'll be seeing another KS campaign in 6 months time under a new name? (Speaking of which I wonder what DM is up to lately)

 doc1234 wrote:
So does that mean we'll be seeing another KS campaign in 6 months time under a new name? (Speaking of which I wonder what DM is up to lately)

Now you mention it, I am surprised DM hasn't tried this. Showing making an effort like Defiance then bomb and keep all the money. No-one likely to sue as it seems hard to get money. He has enough aliases to pull this off a few times.

 fullheadofhair wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
So does that mean we'll be seeing another KS campaign in 6 months time under a new name? (Speaking of which I wonder what DM is up to lately)

Now you mention it, I am surprised DM hasn't tried this. Showing making an effort like Defiance then bomb and keep all the money. No-one likely to sue as it seems hard to get money. He has enough aliases to pull this off a few times.

I did speculate that in one of the last DM threads, someone gave a few reasons about needing to provide KS start up documentation and it still being taxed or whatever, but it's still a route i'm surprised he hasn't taken. Though i'd love to see DG sending out another announcement of the new company head, Mr Mendlemodel.

Just to let everyone know.

Someone from the backers of this clusterfeth has contacted Torn Armor's people and apparently, they can't say much, because a bunch of them are getting ready to sue Defiance, which might explain why Tony isn't speaking to the outside world.

Although I don't think the backers have a chance in hell in a class action, and I'm not about to bother due to being in for 25$ or so, and being a foreigner, this could be entertaining to watch.

Thankyou for paying the price of admittance for us Mathieu! *gets popcorn*

I don't recall if anyone has summarized this here or recently. but I just checked the Defiance Games website and..

-Web store is still "closed for maintenance" .
-Last news posting was December 13th
-Last forum post by anyone was May 22nd. Last forum post by anyone from DG appears to be months prior to that.

Added to the fact that the last Kickstarter update was February 28th!

Has anyone heard anything recently about this. I very deliberately didn't bet any money on this one, but morbid curiosity compels me to ask.

Read the comments on the very first page...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/553141.page

I'd like to feel sorry for people who invested in this but I just don't. You were warned. Everyone on Dakka was warned.

But but but butt this time was supposed to be different!

 CptJake wrote:
But but but butt this time was supposed to be different!

There was new management, they promised!

Anyone know who the concept artist was that made most of their designs?

I'm wondering if that guy was paid, and if he's up for doing any other freelance.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Anyone know who the concept artist was that made most of their designs?

I'm wondering if that guy was paid, and if he's up for doing any other freelance.

People have tried but failed to contact him. - Read Ed (Trollcast) Fortae's comments here:

the 'Alternative' Defiance Games FB Page

They told me they loved me. They wouldn't do this anymore, they'd change!

Seriously, it's 25$. I'm over it. But at least, from what I can gather, forces are moving to sue Tony Reidy en masse. Not the KS backers, but industry people.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
They told me they loved me. They wouldn't do this anymore, they'd change!

Seriously, it's 25$. I'm over it. But at least, from what I can gather, forces are moving to sue Tony Reidy en masse. Not the KS backers, but industry people.

Hm with any luck they'll have to sell whatever IP they have to make up for it and these marines and stuff will get a proper company making them. Like last time.

When did that happen?

When WGF was taken over by the Chinese, is what he means, I reckon.

 Vertrucio wrote:
When did that happen?

In short….

Tony Reidy was the original owner of Wargames Factory. He defaulted on various deals and loans and the Chinese company "Ghost Studio" that was producing his figures took the company away from him. He raised quite a stink and alot of folks were really on his side when he then opened "Defiance Games". However, it was not long before more of what had happened at WGF came to light, and Defiance began to show a less-competent side that most people came to realize that in fact he was not the victim that he purported to be and that Ghost Studio had been at least within their rights to take over.

The subsequent success enjoyed by WGF in producing and improving their own lines and producing the excellent DreamForge Games lines of mecha and soldiers compared to Defiance' slow decent into mediocrity culminating in the malarky that has been outlined in this thread has lent much credence to the later narrative.

 Eilif wrote:


In short….

Tony Reidy was the original owner of Wargames Factory. He defaulted on various deals and loans and the Chinese company "Ghost Studio" that was producing his figures took the company away from him. He raised quite a stink and alot of folks were really on his side when he then opened "Defiance Games". However, it was not long before more of what had happened at WGF came to light, and Defiance began to show a less-competent side that most people came to realize that in fact he was not the victim that he purported to be and that Ghost Studio had been at least within their rights to take over.

The subsequent success enjoyed by WGF in producing and improving their own lines and producing the excellent DreamForge Games lines of mecha and soldiers compared to Defiance' slow decent into mediocrity culminating in the malarky that has been outlined in this thread has lent much credence to the later narrative.

Wonderful summary, and well-written to boot. I did not know Tony had any previous association with WGF.

hurtmypony wrote:

Wonderful summary, and well-written to boot. I did not know Tony had any previous association with WGF.

Thanks!
There's alot more to the story, including one of my favorite indie companies "Proxie Models" being denied payment for product received until a huge internet backlash forced Defiance to return the product. If you're interested in further info, a google search for "Defiance games Tony Reidy" and "Wargames Factory Tony Reidy" will give you more than you'll want. It's interesting to watch the anger at WGF in early 2011 turn into disappointment and frustration with WGF by the end of 2012 and early 2013. I even stumbled across some messages where I expressed disappointment with WGF.