Savageconvoy wrote: But we've already shown that the platform isn't that broken. With the risk of Nova it brings it inline for survivability in order to get the base gun up to a decent profile, which will also bring some risk with it.
And the main Nova ability for the HBC build will be the gun. So when comparing durability you don't just assume it's 3++ and can't assume it's getting 4D6" extra movement.
There is a good reason it's not a walker, and that is that the Crisis suits and Broadsides are T4 2W models. It's the same as Wraithguard compared to the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.
By that logic, why is this guy not a GMC?
Why even have a "walker" category? Riptides and Wraighknights aren't any less fitting for it than Dreadnaughts. At least Crisis suits are small enough to justify not using vehicle rules...
Currently, vehicles are far too weak, so in order to avoid that, they make badass stuff into MC, which ignore fusion and have a more reasonable curve and not ignore all, fusion ouch like the Land Raider.
The problem with that curve is that AV10 is completely underpowered, which is most walkers, and current assault rules against vehicles.
By calling the new big units MC's, they've effectively removed that imbalance and given those units better predictability (not 1 pen explodes bye land raider).
I don't know how they can fix the vehicle rules, but if they don't, it's even better that they turn all vehicles into MCs and drop the broken thing altogether.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote: Are you still going to argue the riptide is nearly as efficient, or do I need to make you a chart to show just how superior the barge is against targets that matter?
And again, that's when ignoring the AV value, who are still common targets, and where the barge will reign supreme.
Its easy to hide behind walls of information, but without properly processing it, you extract information that is unrelated to the truth from the raw data.
Yes, you gave correct percentages of how often one trumps the other, but you made no reference to just how much each trumps the other, nor did you remove "white noise" profiles.
And if you think the "unrealistic" filter made it look worse then it is for the riptide, spoiler alert-its still vastly in favor of the barge with an even more generous filter (if you count the "unrealistic scenarios" that are riptide-favored and count the "unrealistic profiles" who technically exist, but wont be met much, as artillery crews. and while the scenarios slightly favor the riptide, the profiles heavily favor the barge.) or without the filter at all.
Run those numbers with a realistic Riptide loadout + markerlights, then we start discussing.
Are you even reading the topic, or just throwing random comments we went over like 8 pages ago?
The numbers where the barge was out-shooting the riptide were on a NAKED riptide with an HBC. meaning no "realistic setup" would make it better, as none of his upgrades sans one FE relic improve his shooting performance in any way, just add tactical options and defenses.
Meaning "realistic setup" would have been worse. and the barge was already almost double the effect/cost then the riptide as it is. with the riptide coming even close against a handful of very spesific and not very common targets.
And MARKERLIGHTS COSTS POINTS.
Jeez, how can tau-haters ignore it. its like calling a lemon overpowered "because it has a prescience psyker behind it" and you assume there is a buff active. silly as hell way to have meaningful discussion on the value of a unit, EVERY unit in the game can be buffed.
Or the fact markers are fragile as it comes, meaning you can kill them with ease to reduce tau's firepower just as you can kill a psyker, except the psykers tend to hide in units with good armor, in huge squads, or be MCs on their own right. so they are pretty much the easiest buff to remove in the game.
Are you people even trying to come with vaild points or arguments? or is this standard "net raging" where logic is not a factor?
Meaning "realistic setup" would have been worse. and the barge was already almost double the effect/cost then the riptide as it is. with the riptide coming even close against a handful of very spesific and not very common targets.
And MARKERLIGHTS COSTS POINTS.
1. No it would not have been worse, the Riptide is much better per point when upgraded, and that's why it's upgraded in every tournament list.
2. Markerlights cost points, but obviously less than they increase the efficiency of the Riptide, or nobody would have them in their tournament list.
A comparison outside of a realistic setup and realistic battle conditions can only be a straw man argument.
That includes assuming that the Riptide can run away 12" per turn even though the table is only 6x12" X 4x12" and many other logical fallacies that are used as arguments in this discussion.
better? yes. more effecient firepower? NO. his upgrades add tactical strength and durability, the calculation was about firepower, meaning the numbers would be WORSE for upgraded riptides as they got less firepower per point.
And OFC markerlights are more effiecent! but that holds true to EVERY buff unit, or they would have been dumb choices. a seperate fragile buffer has GOT to be more efficent then just more of the shooter.
Do you even HAVE a point?
Nobody said that on REAL battlefield the riptide is bad, nobody said he wanst even very good. the points were that the HBC riptide is less durable and less shooty then given credit for, far less.
And that was proven. multiple time.
So it does not even matter if you "catch him", you don't need to. even uncatched he isn't anything THAT good. mathematically proven on any possible angle.
You can't calculate real combat because there are bazilions of factors and you cannot possibly calculate them all.
"or nobody would have them in their tournament list. "? who used HBC riptide in a serious turny? when was a 7th edition turny to see how many people take riptides at all? (or even tau)
So it does not even matter if you "catch him", you don't need to. even uncatched he isn't anything THAT good. mathematically proven on any possible angle.
Except the angle where it has an IA and markerlights.
You can add the markerlights to the cost of the Tide, you can make notes about how markerlights dying will affect the tide, but pretending anyone is going to field a naked HBC tide even 1/10th of the time people field a naked Annihilation Barge, is a straw man argument.
So it does not even matter if you "catch him", you don't need to. even uncatched he isn't anything THAT good. mathematically proven on any possible angle.
Except the angle where it has an IA and markerlights.
You can add the markerlights to the cost of the Tide, you can make notes about how markerlights dying will affect the tide, but pretending anyone is going to field a naked HBC tide even 1/10th of the time people field a naked Annihilation Barge, is a straw man argument.
That brings us back to the "are you even reading" point that I said not long ago.
This thread, from about the middle of page 2, on the "riptide is ok" side, is all about the HBC riptide, assuming there is no such thing as an IA, because the IA itself is the problem-not the rest of the riptide.
We even noted ON OUR OWN why the IA is the broken part of the riptide, and what exactly it brakes.
Heck, we had to repeat this point nearly every page for the sake of people like you who don't bother reading and just poke their noses to make random accusations without knowing anything.
And with refering to markerlights again. do you judge the balance of every unit under the assumption of other support units are there just to assist it for free, or is it unique for basing tau? (and no, im not THAT sarcasting. there are people doing that just to pat their tau-hate ego on how "op" some tau things are even when they are not, and even the UP things we have.)
You know what? forget reading through everything. by the way you write, you did not even read my last two posts where I clearly pointed out the logical failure on markerlights as your arguement, but you still used it a third time.
I am not going to bother answer you again unless you write anything of substance.
As for me attacking straw man as you claim, the claims I lately attacked are:
"The riptide out-shoots even known OP units like the barge", proven false as the barge out-shoots in by 20% on average when snap shooting.
"He far outclasses other shooty MCs", given as examples are the similar-gun dakkafex, who I noted out to being also a good CC unit, unlike the riptide, and he can and will ruin your day by charging at you, and the exocrine, who is dedicated shooter like the riptide, but unlike him she is a specialist with far lower RoF and better AP value, making her out-shoot the riptide on anything with armor 2, or armor 3 with T5 or higher.
"He pays too little for his chassis", compared it to the similar chassis of the dreadknight to show that in fact he does not.
"He is way too durable for his price" proven wrong as the HBC takes down a heavy toll on his own durability (4.33 wounds over the course of a game), meaning he is in fact not more durable per price then other base MCs unless you try to kill him very, very early in the game (having him dead by turn 1-2)
Just want to chime in here with suggested a fix for all.
Make Tau suits a new class called Mech.
They can then have this class be influenced by purchasing a specific character for it. Making it essentially a bigger suit of armour and increasing the base cost a bit.
Therefore we can get over the MC/walker thing.
I think the riptide is an MC because it's a big suit of armour as opposed to a vehicle.
And with refering to markerlights again. do you judge the balance of every unit under the assumption of other support units are there just to assist it for free, or is it unique for basing tau? (and no, im not THAT sarcasting. there are people doing that just to pat their tau-hate ego on how "op" some tau things are even when they are not, and even the UP things we have.)
I judge the balance of every unit under the assumption that other support units are counted in its costs, and matter as much or more than the unit itself.
For example, the SeerStar is OP only because of Baron Sathonyx, and his point cost is included in the SeerStar, with that of the trophy-thingy that comes with him.
For the Riptide, nobody cares whether some flavor or other looks worse than an Annihilation barge when that flavor is one nobody uses and without the inevitable support units (and their weaknesses too) which are the very core of a Tau army (they wouldn't have BS3 otherwise).
The more you post, the more I think your flawed logic in favor of "Riptide not OP" is a way to discredit that opinion because you want people thinking the Riptide is OP.
Yeah, I think Morgoth is right, it's ok to argue how balanced a HBC Riptide is without factoring in the IA, we can assume that's part of balancing the model, but the Markerlights are gonna be there regardless. Wave Serpents wouldn't be anywhere near as strong if you had to take a 10 man Genestealer squad to unlock them for example. Everything is relevant to the army it's placed in, and what can support it.
Zagman wrote: Snippet, please please point me to the post where I claimed that TMCs are overpowered. Just one.
Well, that was obviously a typo, I quite clearly meant to say "underpowered". And before you go making an big deal about a typo, you just called me a Snippet breh.
Zagman wrote: I don't care what your first army was or how much Tau you have. "I main Tyranid this edition because my Tau became OP." Is nothing but an immature attention grab meant to stroke your own ego.
Yep. I definitely just randomly interjected that little piece right there as a little ego-fix, pump myself up a little for the crowd you know, have the announcer call this out over the loudspeakers to get them chanting my name before I step in the arena, you know how it goes.
Couldn't have possibly been a direct response to you, saying exactly that I'm biased against Tau for being better than my Tyranids, and want them to suck because my Tyranids cost too much and I hate this fact, and that I shouldn't take my anger about GW screwing me on the Tyranid Codex two times in a row on Tau just because they are better than me.
Oh wait whats this little artifact, buried all the way back in your previous post
Spoiler:
Zagman wrote: Shuppet is railing against anything more powerful than his precious Tyranids, his bias is evident. Tyranid MCs are based around an overpriced Chassis, T6 3+ just isn't worth as much as they say. Yes, the exocrine should be cheaper. Yes, the Carnifex should be cheaper. I'd be pissed two if GW screwed my army with consecutive terrible codices.
You cannot assert the premise "TMCs are balanced, therefore the Riptide is not." And then use it in an argument.
I didn't assert that at all haha, I don't want to turn the Riptide into a Trygon or a Haruspex lol, I was talking about comparing it to balanced MC's, IE the Exocrine and the Dakkafex made the cut as balanced shooty MC's. There isn't many else in the GAME aside from those two. They are both competitive options, and No-Nova HBC Riptide still outshoots them both, why does he need to drastically out tank them and outspeed them, and have options to multiply his damage output even further?
Or do you genuinely feel that the Exocrine would be more balanced with 12" movespeed, 2+/5++, Jump-shoot-Jump, and Nova Charge? As well as a 3++ on a 66.7% roll, with options for Skyfire + Interceptor and a bunch of other gak, and support from Markerlight shooting Termagants
To be fair tho, we'd have to give his Bioplasma cannon Gets Hot. And for the sake of this 3+ Riptide argument, we can say the Exocrine's save can stay at the 3+ that it already was.
But oh damn, he'd be almost on one wound by turn 6 if he Nova Charged every turn for Rending and 50% extra shots. What a useless model that would be.
AV10, 5 hull points, all pen are glancing, attacks above S8 reduced to S8, 5++, 2+.
You can take a Riptide down with 216 S4 hits, 108 S5 hits or 72 S6 hits no matter the defensive options it has.
A 2HP AV10 walker will take 12 S4 hits 6- S5 hits or 4- S6 hits, double that with cover.
There is no real way to convert the Riptide durability into vehicle units, because all vehicles are very vulnerable to melta or other special weapons, when the Riptide will at most lose one hp from one shot.
On top of that, vehicles are really weak to assault, many being AV10 rear meaning even 13.5 S4A1 models can take out a vehicle in one charge.
In comparison, a Riptide would take 214 hits or 107 S4A1 models charging, which will never happen.
On the other hand, the Riptide may end up tarpitted, which does not happen to vehicles.
morgoth wrote: AV10, 5 hull points, all pen are glancing, attacks above S8 reduced to S8, 5++, 2+.
You can take a Riptide down with 216 S4 hits, 108 S5 hits or 72 S6 hits no matter the defensive options it has.
A 2HP AV10 walker will take 12 S4 hits 6- S5 hits or 4- S6 hits, double that with cover.
There is no real way to convert the Riptide durability into vehicle units, because all vehicles are very vulnerable to melta or other special weapons, when the Riptide will at most lose one hp from one shot.
On top of that, vehicles are really weak to assault, many being AV10 rear meaning even 13.5 S4A1 models can take out a vehicle in one charge.
In comparison, a Riptide would take 214 hits or 107 S4A1 models charging, which will never happen.
On the other hand, the Riptide may end up tarpitted, which does not happen to vehicles.
So what if it had
Av14/13/11 5hp
5++
That's pretty damned tough right there?
morgoth wrote: AV10, 5 hull points, all pen are glancing, attacks above S8 reduced to S8, 5++, 2+.
You can take a Riptide down with 216 S4 hits, 108 S5 hits or 72 S6 hits no matter the defensive options it has.
A 2HP AV10 walker will take 12 S4 hits 6- S5 hits or 4- S6 hits, double that with cover.
There is no real way to convert the Riptide durability into vehicle units, because all vehicles are very vulnerable to melta or other special weapons, when the Riptide will at most lose one hp from one shot.
On top of that, vehicles are really weak to assault, many being AV10 rear meaning even 13.5 S4A1 models can take out a vehicle in one charge.
In comparison, a Riptide would take 214 hits or 107 S4A1 models charging, which will never happen.
On the other hand, the Riptide may end up tarpitted, which does not happen to vehicles.
So what if it had
Av14/13/11 5hp
5++
That's pretty damned tough right there?
In what world does it make sense for a Riptide to have better armor values than an Imperial Knight?
However, WHY a walker? jet packs on walkers is needlessly annoying to work with, and you really do NOT want a jetpack type movement on someone who can reposition after seeing the results of your shooting this turn and have different facing AV values, as it gives too much strength in pointing th front towards the things that didn't die, rather then killing what is not in front.
And if you take away the jetpack movement....well, he's not very tauish any more.
There isn't a direct compression, and its impossible to make one, because vehicles do not behave the same as MCs in the game regarding to taking damage.
Not on the "wound" sense, nor the damage table, or shooting rules, or alot of things that are just too different to get the same chassis on an AV box.
Give it Imperial Knight stats and an invulnerable save, raise the points costs of Ion Accelerators and the interceptor upgrade, change the FNP upgrade to IWND.
PrinceRaven wrote: Give it Imperial Knight stats and an invulnerable save, raise the points costs of Ion Accelerators and the interceptor upgrade, change the FNP upgrade to IWND.
Now everyone is happy.
Maybe a weaker rear- with the level of mobility it has there should be some pay-off to managing to get behind it...
