So me and a few of the guys are having an all night fun tourney, swapping armies and playing funny stuff. My bud let me play his tau against his dark elder, and seeing his beautifully painted riptide, I had to play it, even though we play 600 point games.
Needless to say, I got wrecked pretty quick.
But the riptide. My god. That thing immobilized one raider, blew up the second, and wiped out a small squad before being taken down by poison weapons.
Do you guys think the Riptide is too expensive point wise? 180 points is a lot, but being able to throw out 8 shots that can take down light to medium vehicles with ease is no joke. And as an elite choice, given the option (and the money) I would probably field three of these just for the heck of it!
Too expensive? The Riptide is really undercosted. For it's insane toughness, speed, and high damage output it should be well over 200 points. Yes it does to poison, like all MCs, but it is insanely good.
Well we just did a rematch and I now see what you guys mean. We went 750 so I thought I would take two riptides. Took out all his raiders first turn, his venoms second turn. That probably explains why Tau is considered top tier!
...180 points is a lot, but being able to throw out 8 shots that can take down light to medium vehicles with ease is no joke...
This made me think of the forgefiend. Very similarly priced, also 8 shots can take down light/medium vehicles pretty easy. Then you compare their durability and just laugh. No way these two should cost near the same, even being from different armies.
Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters.
Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
I think the Riptide is perfectly costed on base wargear, but the Ion Accelerator for only 5 points is a bit under costed. The IA doesn't need the nova reactor to be excellent, the first two modes can deal with most situations. But the point at which a riptide becomes super effective against every thing, is when markerlights happen.
But that poses the question, is the Riptide too good or is it markerlights?
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters.
Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
I played a 1,500pts game vs a Tau list with a single Riptide and loaded a metric f**ton of high strength AP2 shooting onto my list to counter it (4 Harbingers of Destruction + Chronotek in a Ghost Ark, a pre-skyfire nerf Gauss Sentry Pylon and a Tessaract Ark, totally in 4 BS4 S8 AP2 shots + 1 re-roll, 3 BS4 S7 AP2 blasts and 2 BS4 S9 AP2 shots per turn, which is a grand total of 565pts of dedicated Riptide hunting firepower, well over twice its cost).
The Riptide was unbuffed, had no markerlight support, no drones, did not hide behind anything that blocked LoS or granted better cover than his invul save and failed every single one of his feel no pain rolls (there's only a 13.17% chance of that happening 5 times in a row BTW) and thanks to good terrain use and some rather insane luck on my part I managed not lose any of the aforementioned AP2 shooting throughout the entire game. Still took all the above 3 full shooting phases to kill the thing...
Running some quick mathhammer on it it seems that if anything my shooting preformed, at best, around average as in 3 turns of shooting they should've averaged at around 4.667 wounds (MAYBE 5 if you account for the re-roll and the blasts somewhat better than 2/3 chance of hitting as I've used that as an approximation).
If that's not an utter absurdity in terms of game balance I don't know what is...
The biggest issue with the Riptide is the fact that it has a 2+ armor save and chance to boost its 5++ to a 3++ inv.
Compare this to the Wraithknight that is much costlier and only has a 3+/5++ save with a Scatterlaser and TL-Suncannon (this combo costs 300 points in total) and you'll realize the only thing the Wraithknight has going for it in terms of defence is T8 compared to T6.
However, then consider the facts that both these creatures can deep strike, or JSJ (Riptide) or move 12" each turn (Wraithknight) and you'll realize that GW missed the chance to nerf them in 7th edition.
They could have created a separate entry called Jet- or Jump-Monstrous Creatures and barred these from deepstriking or moving more than 6" or preventing them from running but nope, they didnt.
Here's a little hint: Asurman costs 220 points.
Now how much of a game changer is he compared to a Riptide? Exactly. Thats why the Tide is undercosted.
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters.
Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
I played a 1,500pts game vs a Tau list with a single Riptide and loaded a metric f**ton of high strength AP2 shooting onto my list to counter it (4 Harbingers of Destruction + Chronotek in a Ghost Ark, a pre-skyfire nerf Gauss Sentry Pylon and a Tessaract Ark, totally in 4 BS4 S8 AP2 shots + 1 re-roll, 3 BS4 S7 AP2 blasts and 2 BS4 S9 AP2 shots per turn, which is a grand total of 565pts of dedicated Riptide hunting firepower, well over twice its cost).
The Riptide was unbuffed, had no markerlight support, no drones, did not hide behind anything that blocked LoS or granted better cover than his invul save and failed every single one of his feel no pain rolls (there's only a 13.17% chance of that happening 5 times in a row BTW) and thanks to good terrain use and some rather insane luck on my part I managed not lose any of the aforementioned AP2 shooting throughout the entire game. Still took all the above 3 full shooting phases to kill the thing...
Running some quick mathhammer on it it seems that if anything my shooting preformed, at best, around average as in 3 turns of shooting they should've averaged at around 4.667 wounds (MAYBE 5 if you account for the re-roll and the blasts somewhat better than 2/3 chance of hitting as I've used that as an approximation).
If that's not an utter absurdity in terms of game balance I don't know what is...
Shockingly, it's rather typical that one must spend roughly 2x the pts cost of an enemy unit's total in order to shoot them off the board.
I typically have to spend 140pts of Tzherald + 200pts of 18 Horrors in order to shoot down 10 Tactical Marines.
By your standards, that Tactical Squad is absurdly undercosted since I had to spend about 350pts just to kill maybe 180pts worth of Marines...
Look at what the Riptide lost in the new 7th edition:
1. Twin-linked everything!
2. Ignores Cover on all weapons
3. T5/2+/4++/FnP w/added Drone support tanker
4. Fortune/Forewarning or any other Psychic augment
5. Nerf to 'Smash' attack
That's a giant kick in the pants to what made them truly game-breaking in 6th.
Yes, they're still very big and quite scary, but they're not nearly as huge a dominating presence as they were. The Buffmander's loss especially has nuked their most heinous aspects.
you forgot the part where its S8 AP2 pie plate can now perhaps grant a 4+ cover, but nevertheless target all 10 members of a tactical squad spread out over the 3 levels of a ruin.
and it still has its EWO shenanigan where it gets to fry an entire terminator squad the turn they deepstrike next to it.
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters.
Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
I played a 1,500pts game vs a Tau list with a single Riptide and loaded a metric f**ton of high strength AP2 shooting onto my list to counter it (4 Harbingers of Destruction + Chronotek in a Ghost Ark, a pre-skyfire nerf Gauss Sentry Pylon and a Tessaract Ark, totally in 4 BS4 S8 AP2 shots + 1 re-roll, 3 BS4 S7 AP2 blasts and 2 BS4 S9 AP2 shots per turn, which is a grand total of 565pts of dedicated Riptide hunting firepower, well over twice its cost).
The Riptide was unbuffed, had no markerlight support, no drones, did not hide behind anything that blocked LoS or granted better cover than his invul save and failed every single one of his feel no pain rolls (there's only a 13.17% chance of that happening 5 times in a row BTW) and thanks to good terrain use and some rather insane luck on my part I managed not lose any of the aforementioned AP2 shooting throughout the entire game. Still took all the above 3 full shooting phases to kill the thing...
Running some quick mathhammer on it it seems that if anything my shooting preformed, at best, around average as in 3 turns of shooting they should've averaged at around 4.667 wounds (MAYBE 5 if you account for the re-roll and the blasts somewhat better than 2/3 chance of hitting as I've used that as an approximation).
If that's not an utter absurdity in terms of game balance I don't know what is...
Shockingly, it's rather typical that one must spend roughly 2x the pts cost of an enemy unit's total in order to shoot them off the board.
I typically have to spend 140pts of Tzherald + 200pts of 18 Horrors in order to shoot down 10 Tactical Marines.
By your standards, that Tactical Squad is absurdly undercosted since I had to spend about 350pts just to kill maybe 180pts worth of Marines...
Look at what the Riptide lost in the new 7th edition:
1. Twin-linked everything!
2. Ignores Cover on all weapons
3. T5/2+/4++/FnP w/added Drone support tanker
4. Fortune/Forewarning or any other Psychic augment
5. Nerf to 'Smash' attack
That's a giant kick in the pants to what made them truly game-breaking in 6th.
Yes, they're still very big and quite scary, but they're not nearly as huge a dominating presence as they were. The Buffmander's loss especially has nuked their most heinous aspects.
Really? REALLY??
So in your book it's perfectly reasonable for nearly 3 times the point value of a model in dedicated counters to take 3-4 turns of full, uninterrupted shooting under ideal conditions to kill it?
I guess my Transcended C'tan must be a grossly overcosted glass cannon then, as ~2,000 points of dedicated counters would dakka it into oblivion much faster...
Sir Arun wrote: I'd also like to remind people now that the Riptide is a scoring unit.
That can't contest an objective against anything with Objective Secured, unless the Tau players has some way to give said rule to their Riptide.
1. Send squishy troops out in the open to contest objective from Riptide.
2. ???
3. Win game.
I'm having trouble figuring out what step 2 is, because the logical progression from step 1 is "troops get slaughtered", bu that doesn't seem to lead to step 3...
The stupid thing doesn't fit the fluff of Tau to begin with. This is a Matt Ward scenario. Something that needed to be pushed through the development stages, got thrown at the shelves before it was properly play tested.
Lets give a MC with a 2+/5++ base and T6 the best shooti in the game. Then lets make it cost less than most Walkers, who by all rights SHOULD perform the same roles, but hilariously can't and ultimately fail so badly at said role they are useless.
If this isn't enough to sell the model (Fluff be damned, never mind the fact Tau fluff stated massive armored vehicles was always a failed attempt on their part and that their technologies and resources prohibited their existence) We will allow them to be able to shoot at Arial targets for cheap, gain FNP for pennies and have Thrust Moves that make no sense! HUZZAH! Lets move boxes of these buggers!
Sir Arun wrote: I'd also like to remind people now that the Riptide is a scoring unit.
That can't contest an objective against anything with Objective Secured, unless the Tau players has some way to give said rule to their Riptide.
1. Send squishy troops out in the open to contest objective from Riptide.
2. ???
3. Win game.
I'm having trouble figuring out what step 2 is, because the logical progression from step 1 is "troops get slaughtered", bu that doesn't seem to lead to step 3...
I'm guessing step 2 is "Knock out your opponent with a swift right hook and skip his turn."
I think that the issue is more in line with the Ion Accelerator than anything else. Which IMHO I think should be swapped with the Ion Cannon on the Hammerhead. Either that or it should go from the three shot normal to an overcharged short range beam weapon.
Looking at the base model, it's got 8 S6 shots at about the same price as a forgefiend. I think that most people will agree that as it is, this is a pretty standard model and is putting out about as much firepower as a unit of Crisis suits with similar weapons with some extra points thrown in for it's durability.
The Nova Reactor does come off as a bit much however to tip it over it's expected cost. Of the four options they are all extremely useful in various situations and I'm surprised it's not a random chart. The offset is losing a wound 1/3 of the time without taking a costly piece of wargear. Now I'm probably alone in saying it, but I think that the Nova Reactor is actually fairly priced in with the HBC since it really presses the player to Nova more often, risking more damage and to actually limit the options to take other boosts like the shield.
Especially with how Psykers work now, Taus complete inability to benefit or defend from psyker powers, and how big of a joke the perils chart is I think that the Nova Reactor is supposed to be a fair replacement for psyker powers.
I will be the first to say that the IA is a huge boost to the Riptides effectiveness. It comes with two good modes of shooting, which not only free up the options to use the nova charge on but make nova charging completely optional as well. If you're not Nova Charging, then you're not risking wounds and increasing the durability of it significantly. That is more than a 5 point upgrade.
I think the main issue is its durability. The thing is 2 to 3 times more durable to bolters than a GUO which had been a pinnacle of durability for a long time. I think it needs to lose 1T or 1W or be 3+ instead of 2+. In addition to one of those it should not have access to FnP. A shooty robot that takes a dozen demolisher cannons to the face to kill doesn't really fit well in the game. Especially not an elite. It really should have been a walker.
Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters. Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
You can attach independent characters to one man units.
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters. Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
You can attach independent characters to one man units.
You can not longer, however, attach ICs to MCs. 7th changed that (IIRC).
I agree, the place where the riptide brakes is not the godly defene, or the high mobility.
Its the IA.
Without that gun it becomes far less threatening, its just that the mere potential of S8AP2 cover ignoring pie plates or alternatevly triple S7AP2 shots, both across the table, that goes wild, and lets him to virtually take down any target in the game unless its an invul-based-defense kind of unit. and these are rare and often overcosted.
The IA should have been AP3 like the IC, with AP2 only on NOVA usage. then it would have been possible to work around it to being a fair unit, and even then a slight price hike to the gun would have been proper (about 15-20 points upgrade)
As for "enclaves can get ECPA to solve HBC issues"
Its a one-of-a-kind item, that costs you 30 points. and even for that, its still not truly risk-free, just low risk.
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
why do you even need to overcharge the suit unless your going for the 3+ invul save. my buddy who runs an enclave list uses some sort of deep striking suits with fusion guns to crush my tanks. his riptides make a mockery of every single troop selection in the game, all without overcahrging the cannon. in your post you mention that the tide isnt OP, just two options are. I mean you cant have one without the other, people dont just take the base package riptide for a reason, it makes no sense to say its balanced when any player worth his salt takes the upgrades everytime. FNP on a 6 wound model is basically 2 extra wounds (33% chance to save each wound), its unreal. I see nothing in 7th that is going to make the tide less effective. With the exception of summoning i find the people i play are getting less spells off per turn and when they do their is a greater chance of perils. What has changed in 7th to make it less effective? the fact it can score makes it better.
This post really needs some guidance. I recommend well constructed sentences.
3 shots at S7 AP2 on BS3 is pretty bad for the Riptides Cost. Overcharging for the S8 AP2 Gets Hot Pieplate is mandatory. That is the only Overcharge there is, though I believe you actually meant Nova Charge. The HBC needs to Nova Charge its HBC to be effective, 12 Shots that rend vs just 8 is a must. The standard HBC without a Novacharged HBC really doesn't pull its weight. As I've said, the IA Riptide has little need to use its Nova Reactor, and not needing its Nova Reactor is one of the major reasons the gun is undercosted. I literally explained all of this in detail in my post. Did you read it?
I agree, with enough support a Riptide can really do a number on troops, but without Markerlight for Ignores Cover its actually less points efficient then a Leamn Russ with Battlecannon. And we are talking about the IA Riptide here, the HCB really isn't great vs troops with a 3+ AS and is passable if the 4+AS troops don't have cover, but it isn't nearly as effective as standard Pulse Rifles are.
I am a competitive Tau player and I field more HBC Riptides than IA and will continue to do so. The IA Riptide really isn't very good at AA wherass an HBC with Stim and VT is pretty good at it.
You failed at math for the Stim, let me explain it to you. Firstly the Riptide has only 5 wounds, not 6. FNP 5+ results in a 50% increase in durability as only 1/3 wounds pass through, meaning that 1 wound stopped by FNP and 2 let through is 1:2 or 50%. A 5 Wound Riptide with FNP has an effective 7.5 Wounds.
Did you actually read my post? If you were struggling with just IA Riptides that weren't boosted with either a BuffCommander or Farseer or a lot of Markerlights and developed this much hate, I strongly suggest you raise your game, because had you been playing against someone skilled with Riptides you'd truly understand how they could be played. Or are you unaware that you can no longer join an IC ie BuffCommander to a Riptide and since Eldar and Tau are no longer Battle Brothers you cannot buff them with Guide and Precience? Support for Riptides are down to Markerlights, which takes considerable amount of investment and can be removed.
Unsupported Riptides, even IA Riptides do not have that high of a damage output, Battle Cannons on Leman Russes are scarier at that point in time. And you can get Ignores Cover on Russes now. Riptides are strong, but they aren't the worst offenders in 7th. The transition to 7th actually robbed them of some of the things that put them over the top.
The Riptide is nowhere near as dominant as it was in 6th. Its lost a lot of the support that made it great. Yes it can score, but even naked tactical marines stand a good chance of breaking and running them down so they really can't hold an objective.
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
This argument falls apart rather quickly once you start comparing the Riptide to other MCs, and I'm completely ignoring upgrades and the nova reactor...
I used it once. needed to clear some guardsmen in cover with my HBC/SMS/ECPA tide, and didnt want to burn markerlights.
Highly situational, but comes up. (double-fusion on a tank comes to mind)
The 4d6 jump and 3++ can also save your ass in a pinch. though with the IA its often easier to just blow them to bits.
I don't know a single gun as reliable, powerful, high ranged and not limited use as the IA. there are very few things that can out-gun it.
Galorian-as for your comparison, many of them are sub-par setups, "wrong" setups, on in case of the stalker, just a poor unit overall. you would do much better comparing dreadknights for example, when decked out-as people play them, and as they truly work, or take the other high-end MCs like crones, flyrants, demon princes, greater demons of sorts, wraithknight/lord.
Vector Strike wrote: Zagman, with Enclaves you can get an ECPA for the HBC and reduce the Gets Hot problem, alleviating the use of markerlights
I find the Riptide to be ok. Without Marines/Eldar/Buffmander, it's on its own, needing markerlights as any other Tau unit
Oh, I am fully aware of that as I run a Farsight Enclaves army. The ECPA is a bargain at 30pts, and ironically is a wast on an IA Riptide. An HBC Riptide with ECPA is better IMO than an IA Riptide.
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
This argument falls apart rather quickly once you start comparing the Riptide to other MCs, and I'm completely ignoring upgrades and the nova reactor...
Nemesis Dreadnight with Heavy Psycannon:
WS5 BS4 S6 T6 4W I4 3A Ld10 Sv2+/5++ | 6" moves
Heavy Psycannon- 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Rending
170pts
So... How is the base Riptide, devoid of any upgrades or nova charging, not undercosted for its capabilities compared to any of the above?
If you feel I've somehow cherry picked only bottom rung MCs for comparison feel free to bring up more cost efficient ones to compare.
Maybe you should may the Riptides you face move as Jetpack Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. Only a 6" move. Also, just about all of those listed are Fearless or much more capable in CC, have much better initiatives. For instance the Dreadknight for 130pts has 5 S10 Attacks at WS5 I4 on the Charge. Carnifexes certainly are overcosted, not as bad as last codex, but still are. And they still dominate a Riptide in CC. Also, don't forget about special rules.
Base Dreadknight is cheaper, a CC Monster, and only has one less wound. Built in Psychic Defense. ML1. Is S10. And for 30pts gets a Torrent Flamer which makes it pretty damned effective.
Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Edit: About Ripplefire, it is actually phenomenal. On a Velocity Tracker Riptide and a fusion Blaster, Double Tapping against Flyers is so useful. Also Ripplefire SMS is great as well for clearing objetive campers off of Objectives when you don't have the Markerlights to spare.
Thrust can win Games.
Usually Shield is a Trap unless you really really need it.
BoomWolf wrote: I used it once. needed to clear some guardsmen in cover with my HBC/SMS/ECPA tide, and didnt want to burn markerlights.
Highly situational, but comes up. (double-fusion on a tank comes to mind)
The 4d6 jump and 3++ can also save your ass in a pinch. though with the IA its often easier to just blow them to bits.
I don't know a single gun as reliable, powerful, high ranged and not limited use as the IA. there are very few things that can out-gun it.
Galorian-as for your comparison, many of them are sub-par setups, "wrong" setups, on in case of the stalker, just a poor unit overall. you would do much better comparing dreadknights for example, when decked out-as people play them, and as they truly work, or take the other high-end MCs like crones, flyrants, demon princes, greater demons of sorts, wraithknight/lord.
The HBC is not BAD at any count, but not OP.
So it's ok because it's comparable to those overpowered FMCs that often dominate tournaments or the Wraithknight?
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively.
Don't worry, give it a month or three and the Imperials will eventually clue into just how game-breaking the new Santic Daemonology lore is, abuse the crap out of it like no tomorrow, and the rest of us Xenos players will be back under the heels of the Emperor's "finest."
BoomWolf wrote: I used it once. needed to clear some guardsmen in cover with my HBC/SMS/ECPA tide, and didnt want to burn markerlights.
Highly situational, but comes up. (double-fusion on a tank comes to mind)
The 4d6 jump and 3++ can also save your ass in a pinch. though with the IA its often easier to just blow them to bits.
I don't know a single gun as reliable, powerful, high ranged and not limited use as the IA. there are very few things that can out-gun it.
Galorian-as for your comparison, many of them are sub-par setups, "wrong" setups, on in case of the stalker, just a poor unit overall. you would do much better comparing dreadknights for example, when decked out-as people play them, and as they truly work, or take the other high-end MCs like crones, flyrants, demon princes, greater demons of sorts, wraithknight/lord.
The HBC is not BAD at any count, but not OP.
So it's ok because it's comparable to those overpowered FMCs that often dominate tournaments or the Wraithknight?
Give me a break...
None of these is overpowered in the current incarnation of how FMC works, also you ignored me pointing out the wraithLORD or a decked-out dreadknight, who is far more powerful then semi-decked ones (the sword is AMAZING, as it applies the rerolls to guns as well)
Necrons MCs are terribad, get over it. your barges are still 1# on the "most underpriced unit" list, putting even the (admittedly OP) IA riptides to shame.
Zagman wrote: Maybe you should may the Riptides you face move as Jetpack Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. Only a 6" move. Also, just about all of those listed are Fearless or much more capable in CC, have much better initiatives. For instance the Dreadknight for 130pts has 5 S10 Attacks at WS5 I4 on the Charge. Carnifexes certainly are overcosted, not as bad as last codex, but still are. And they still dominate a Riptide in CC. Also, don't forget about special rules.
Base Dreadknight is cheaper, a CC Monster, and only has one less wound. Built in Psychic Defense. ML1. Is S10. And for 30pts gets a Torrent Flamer which makes it pretty damned effective.
They'll NEVER catch a Riptide in CC unless his player is smoking weed midgame or the Dreadnight shells out for a 75pt upgrade, there nothing "only" about a 6+2d6" move per turn while shooting on a 30"+ ranged MC.
And in case you haven't noticed, the most useful special rules I'm ignoring are the Riptide's own...
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
Zagman wrote: Maybe you should may the Riptides you face move as Jetpack Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. Only a 6" move. Also, just about all of those listed are Fearless or much more capable in CC, have much better initiatives. For instance the Dreadknight for 130pts has 5 S10 Attacks at WS5 I4 on the Charge. Carnifexes certainly are overcosted, not as bad as last codex, but still are. And they still dominate a Riptide in CC. Also, don't forget about special rules.
Base Dreadknight is cheaper, a CC Monster, and only has one less wound. Built in Psychic Defense. ML1. Is S10. And for 30pts gets a Torrent Flamer which makes it pretty damned effective.
They'll NEVER catch a Riptide in CC unless his player is smoking weed midgame or the Dreadnight shells out for a 75pt upgrade, there nothing "only" about a 6+2d6" move per turn while shooting on a 30"+ ranged MC.
And in case you haven't noticed, the most useful special rules I'm ignoring are the Riptide's own...
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
Why are you using a logical fallacy of thinking the Dreadknight needs to be compared to fighting and catching a Riptide for a valid Comparison? And Dreadknights will catch a Riptide T3 in just about all deployments short of Hammer and Anvil. And if we are having them fight each other, the Dreadknight has a Personal Teleporter, 205 pts, catches a Riptide T1, assaults it T2 and sweeps it. I guess in these useless vacuum comparison the Dreadknight is overpowered. Dreadknights are not effective counters for Riptides unless they have PTs. Why do you assume for a relative value worth they have to fight each other? I can do that too, but I am trying to be objective and fair.
And the biggest Special Rule, the Nova Reactor actively kills the Riptide.
And comparing the Riptide to either overcosted MCs, poor loadouts or using onesided scenarios for comparisons is valid? Have you missed all of my comparisions to a Leman Russ where the Leman Russ deals more damage per game at range than an IA Ripted for 2/3 the cost? Everything as a whole must be examined. Only the IA and EWO upgrades are undercosted and even so it doesn't make the Riptide even one of the biggest offenders of 7th Edition. There are so many many other units that get that role..... Wave Serpents.... Belakor.... Wraithknights..... Night Scythes..... Annihilation Barges..... CCB Lord..... OS Land Raiders..... Knights..... LOW...... SeerStar..... Lash DPs...... Nurgle 2+ Flying Summoners... Rerollable every save in CC for Imperial Forces... and that list can go on and on.
Edit: And one final point, comparing one "Blatantly Overpowered" MC to another "Blatantly Overpowered MC" does have a point, it shows where the Riptide is in the whole continuum of choices and every more OP choice I can put gives us a better perspective. Riptide certainly is one of the best MCs in the game, I've never ever said otherwise.
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
So there's no baseline then? You've established there are MC below the curve. But we can't compare it to others above the curve to see where the curve actually is?
And I really have to agree with Zagman's breakdown. I'm even willing to argue that the Riptide has a very open weakness in that it needs to actively rely on squishy support units to be effective. Without support the Riptide falls in more inline with it's cost.
But we're Tau, nobody ever factors in the cost or fragility of our support units. They just assume everything gets BS10 and ignores cover all the time every time.
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
So there's no baseline then? You've established there are MC below the curve. But we can't compare it to others above the curve to see where the curve actually is?
And I really have to agree with Zagman's breakdown. I'm even willing to argue that the Riptide has a very open weakness in that it needs to actively rely on squishy support units to be effective. Without support the Riptide falls in more inline with it's cost.
But we're Tau, nobody ever factors in the cost or fragility of our support units. They just assume everything gets BS10 and ignores cover all the time every time.
I've seen Tau dominate too often by a wide margin to believe they're anything other than OP. It always takes far more points than a riptide costs, to take out a riptide and I've yet to see a riptide not earn its points back.
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
So there's no baseline then? You've established there are MC below the curve. But we can't compare it to others above the curve to see where the curve actually is?
And I really have to agree with Zagman's breakdown. I'm even willing to argue that the Riptide has a very open weakness in that it needs to actively rely on squishy support units to be effective. Without support the Riptide falls in more inline with it's cost.
But we're Tau, nobody ever factors in the cost or fragility of our support units. They just assume everything gets BS10 and ignores cover all the time every time.
I've seen Tau dominate too often by a wide margin to believe they're anything other than OP. It always takes far more points than a riptide costs, to take out a riptide and I've yet to see a riptide not earn its points back.
Maybe that was 100% true in 6th edition, but we're not in 6th edition anymore...
In 7th edition, the Riptide has been taken down a fair few notches to the point that a couple of it's upgrades are still somewhat undercosted, but overall, the Riptide itself is now overall much closer to a decently balanced unit.
Sure it's still a great buy for any Tau army, but it's no longer THE army itself anymore.
I've seen Tau dominate too often by a wide margin to believe they're anything other than OP. It always takes far more points than a riptide costs, to take out a riptide and I've yet to see a riptide not earn its points back.
I've seen multiple games where Riptides did 2-3 wounds to themselves while maybe dealing out almost no damage in return before getting killed off. I've seen games where a Riptide gets instant killed by beast hunter shells or one of the "removed from play on initiative test" powers before killing anything. I've had games where a Riptide got taken down by bolter fire, swept in assault, and killed off with Psychic Shrieks.
Psychic shriek is pretty good against Riptides since you can't join Farseers to them. The opposing player only has to toss one die, has a 50% to cast and no chance to peril, while the Tau player will have to save up several dice just to have an off chance to defend against it. They will also get Psychic shriek for free if they put all their dice into Telepathy which is pretty good and can now cast it regardless of their level (I.e. a lvl 1 can cast invisibility and psychich shriek on a lucky roll). Also the flying spell casters now get to stay in the skies longer since they take less grounding checks.
It also really depends on the load outs of the Riptides. I'll agree that the IA is a very cheap upgrade for an amazing gun, provided it has markerlight support. A stock HBC Riptide will probably not earn it's points back easily or without a lot of luck. Again, it's not the Riptide itself, it's the cost of the IA.
I'm not saying they aren't good, but it's really hard to draw the line as to what's really overpowered with so many overpowered and so many crap units. Personally I hate the Eternal Shield Chapter Master. Wave Serpents are over powered. The Dataslate Deamon Prince. The many new funky Imperial deathstars. Cheap psykers that get to toss around Prescience on any battle brothers.
The Riptide has lost quite a bit. It is still great, but it alone won't win armies.
I've seen my Riptides not "earn their points back" on many occasions. I've seen it many more times in Battle Reports.
One of my favorites was in 6th Ed a BA Assault Squad arrived from a Drop Pod. Naturally I decided to Intercept them with my IA Riptide, but they were too close for the Overcharged option so I single shot it and the TLFB killing 2. They had combat squadded and opened up on some of my army. In my next turn I proceed to assault the three man squad with one Riptide, and shoot then assault the other five man squad. Three rounds of CC later both of my Riptides had been ran down and all they killed was 7 Marines!
Luckily, I got him to over commit and picked off his scoring. With a little Farsight and Troop Crisis DS I was able to clear the back objective for a late game W. A win it may have been, but it was in no part due to the Riptides.
God, I've seen two of them drop like flies to DE. Khorne Rush obliterated them. Eldar Beastpacks... FMCs.... man so many ways they "didn't get their points back" in 6th Ed, and that was when they were better!
And don't get me started on suicidal Riptides.... the Nova Reactor can easily make Riptides easy to kill or make it too risky to use mid to late game. You can't assume a successful Nova Reactor.
People have to remember to factor in the cost of Tau Supporting units into the cost of that Riptide.
With the change to 7th, I strongly doubt we will be seeing Riptide Spam or Tau in general doing well in tournaments. They are going to drop to the just north of the middle the pack spot. The Devilfish is going to be quite a bit better this edition and with Objective Secured is the only Tau Troop capable of surviving. The era of Riptides everywhere is over, people just haven't played enough 7th yet to understand that yet.
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Deuce11 wrote: it needs to be 200+ points so definitely under-costed
For the Ion Accelerator Riptide I agree, but a 200+ base Riptide with an HBC would be overcosted....
Well I don't think that fighting a riptide would be so bad for certain counters, and in certain point matches. But for me, I like to play 500-1000 point games, I only have my 1500 force for close friends.
in a 1000 point game if someone fielded 2 of those against my crons I can guarantee I couldn't kill them without 2-3 horseshoes shoved into the nether regions.
I guess thats sort of the competitive side of it though, in a normal small point game you just shouldn't be a dick and field these knowing your enemy has no viable counters at that point level.
I don't think I would of done it if my buddy didn't tell me too. Yes, it was funny, but WAY to cheesy. I think tau need a few more nerfs accross the table, or just the other armies need a few buffs to meet the tau tier levels (except for sisters of battle, they can stay where they are)
stopcallingmechief wrote: Zagman. Ive played this game for twenty years and must have been sick the day they did the english language test both to play and to post on the forums. If you do not like the way i post in mysecond language, than dont let the door hit you on the way out of the thread, prick. My points stand.
why do you even need to overcharge the suit unless your going for the 3+ invul save. my buddy who runs an enclave list uses some sort of deep striking suits with fusion guns to crush my tanks. his riptides make a mockery of every single troop selection in the game, all without overcahrging the cannon. in your post you mention that the tide isnt OP, just two options are. I mean you cant have one without the other, people dont just take the base package riptide for a reason, it makes no sense to say its balanced when any player worth his salt takes the upgrades everytime. FNP on a 6 wound model is basically 2 extra wounds (33% chance to save each wound), its unreal. I see nothing in 7th that is going to make the tide less effective. With the exception of summoning i find the people i play are getting less spells off per turn and when they do their is a greater chance of perils. What has changed in 7th to make it less effective? the fact it can score makes it better.
I apologize if it is your second language, though I recommend using Capital Letters. It greatly increases readability of a post. My reaction was more directed at that although I specified sentences.
I've played this game for over a decade as well....
As to your point or lack there of. I've run Riptides in a competitive setting, ~30-50 Tournament Games in 6th Edition. I've done well with them at the GT level. I've played as and against Riptides, even Quadtide at a GT. Needless to say I have a lot of experience running Riptides and am painfully aware of what weaknesses they do have and their relative worth. That being said I ran them because they are one of the best units in the Tau Codex which match up against some of the best units from other codices.
Firstly I supplied a well constructed and detailed post breaking the Riptide down into many different facets examining its relative worth. Your post showed either a lack of reading or understanding of my post. Again, you say your points stand, but for the life of me I'm not seeing it. Please spell them out in a logical and useful manner and we can argue each point in detail
I'm going to reiterate this one more time. The base Riptide is not undercosted, but it does have two options which are. Please specify and direct your rage towards those two options, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override. Even undercosted they are very manageable and without considerable support is less point efficient and ranged damage than a Leman Russ. Yes, it is a very durable points denial unit but it is far from the worst offender for OP/Uncercosted. In fact, in 7th Edition the Riptide will be far less common and will not be the powerhouse it once was for the reasons I've given. And given your examples we are dealing with at least a 220pt model with Stim Injectors and the IA upgrade. That is not a cheap unit and without support its damage output will under perform on average over the course of many games.
Now, I strongly suggest you act as mature as someone who has been playing this game for twenty years and not devolve into immature name calling. There absolutely was no need for it. I ask that you write a well crafted response to the points I've raise. Handwaving and name calling have no place in this discussion, therefore I invite you to leave the thread as I am confident that I've contributed much more to it than you have.
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luky7dayz wrote: Well I don't think that fighting a riptide would be so bad for certain counters, and in certain point matches. But for me, I like to play 500-1000 point games, I only have my 1500 force for close friends.
in a 1000 point game if someone fielded 2 of those against my crons I can guarantee I couldn't kill them without 2-3 horseshoes shoved into the nether regions.
I guess thats sort of the competitive side of it though, in a normal small point game you just shouldn't be a dick and field these knowing your enemy has no viable counters at that point level.
I don't think I would of done it if my buddy didn't tell me too. Yes, it was funny, but WAY to cheesy. I think tau need a few more nerfs accross the table, or just the other armies need a few buffs to meet the tau tier levels (except for sisters of battle, they can stay where they are)
Yes, that is playing at a relatively low points level. There is a reason that many events are usually 1500/1850. At those points levels you have the options to field lists capable of handling many threats.
At 1k with Crons, you could bring a DLord with a bunch of Wraiths supported by Warriors in Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges. You will assault and kill the Riptide Turn 2 or 3 at the absolute latest. Tesla is actually quite efficient at killing Riptides.
Two Riptides at 1k is an extremely hard list and isn't for casual play. Now, two in a tournament is acceptable and still isn't likely to earn you any friends. But, other armies can field multiple Wave Serpents at the level, or field a force of Grav Bikers Tanked with a Eternal Shield Bike Chapter Master. Etc.
Two of any "undercosted" model at 1k pts is a dick move. People field the strong crap all the time at low points because they know if you didnt expect it and brought a counter to it, sacrificing something else to get said counter, it will crush the gak out of you. Try facing against CSM at 1000pts that brought 3 helldrakes....cant kill them without some hella lucky dice and each turn they roast half your army. Riptide is in the same boat, but easier to hit.
Thats the problem with playing current day 40k at lower than 1500pts - its really, really easy to cheese by spamming something you know your opponent wont have the answer to without knowing ahead of time you were bringing them.
Riptides are not the most broken model in the game...quite far from it. Only reason people freak out about them is because of the AP2 pi plate across the table. Try outflanking plasma marine bikers, or other such fast moving units, they kill riptides pretty fast. Mine tends to die to a 6man plasma squad of bikers every game because im either sitting on the side he rolled or he rolled a 5/6 and picked that side, instantly causing 5-6 wounds on my 4wound model (usually flop a nova by now). Kinda shocked i never see any Wraithknight hate threads - two 36" S10 AP1 guns on a virtually immortal model barring sniper spamming that causes ID on a 6? And you cant beat it in assault since its crazy in there too? Confused why riptides are the target.....
You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.
And before anyone asks, no i dont spam riptides. I field 1 regularly at 2k points, sometimes 2 but thats rare unless i goto 2500. i have a 3rd but he stays on a sprue until i can build him up right and proppa for when i play 3k+ games (want to make him look epic and stand out more, since hes going to be my Earth Cast user)
GoliothOnline wrote: We will allow them to be able to shoot at Arial targets for cheap, gain FNP for pennies and have Thrust Moves that make no sense! HUZZAH! Lets move boxes of these buggers!
You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.
Its durability is just too high. Its nearly immune to small arms fire and even takes an inordinate amount of heavy firepower to destroy. It isn't easy to catch it in assault given its high degree of mobility and once there doesn't fold as easy as many people are saying. To average one wound you need 54 cc attacks from marines even when it doesn't have fnp. That means in order to actually have a decent chance killing it in cc you need to be fast enough to catch 6+2D6" movement, weather heavy shooting, and pack a mean punch if you get there. The thing has little to no downsides besides very specific counters. The thread is full of people talking about how many points of damage it can do vs how much it costs while not really factoring in that its durability adds a way over the top value to the unit. If it was T5 4W 3+ people would laugh it like they do walking demon princes.
You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.
Its durability is just too high. Its nearly immune to small arms fire and even takes an inordinate amount of heavy firepower to destroy. It isn't easy to catch it in assault given its high degree of mobility and once there doesn't fold as easy as many people are saying. To average one wound you need 54 cc attacks from marines even when it doesn't have fnp. That means in order to actually have a decent chance killing it in cc you need to be fast enough to catch 6+2D6" movement, weather heavy shooting, and pack a mean punch if you get there. The thing has little to no downsides besides very specific counters. The thread is full of people talking about how many points of damage it can do vs how much it costs while not really factoring in that its durability adds a way over the top value to the unit. If it was T5 4W 3+ people would laugh it like they do walking demon princes.
Yep, it's super durable, and without a large amount of support it's damage output isn't that high.
If you factor in the Support elements it's cost is much much higher. It's damage output isn't that high, and less points effective than a Leman Russ.
Assuming no FNP Leman Russ is is even harder to hurt with small arms. 270 BS4 Bolter Shots vs Infinity
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Assault Cannons. 45 BS4 S6 Rending Shots vs 81 and 122 with Cover.
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Lascannons 13.5 BS4 Lascannons vs 20 Assuming easy 5+ Cover 13.5 Without Cover
Leman Russ is hard to catch as it moves 6" and maintains long Range. It can Tank Shock.
Oh, and the Riptide actively hurts itself with its Nova Reactor.
Granted the Russ can possibly be one shotted, but so can a Riptide by ID weapons. Riptides are also vulnerable to Psychic powers like Psychic Shriek and Leadership based attacks.
Damage Output vs 3+ AS or Worse the Leman Russ is 120% as efficient at dealing damage at long range.
A Leman Russ is only 2/3 the cost. The Riptide is more damaging vs Vehicles and 2+AS. But, the IA Riptide gets hot.
Sure the Riptide can use Markerlights to Ignore Cover, so can the Russ thanks to Orders.
Doesn't look like the Riptide is that overpowered, at least not as a shooting platform using the Ian Riptide and a Leman Russ as an example. The Riptide is more versatile and mobile, but is not quite as indestructible as some would think. I could have compared it to Land Raiders, which require specialized attacks to handle. Riptides are no different.
I'm just supplying the math, which tracts with my experiences. I've tried to relay all of this information to the thread in the best way possible.. The Riptide is a great unit, the IA and EWO are under costed, but as is it isn't that far outside the realm of reasonable threats.
The point that team "it's not undercosted" seems to be missing is that, even for the base model, the combination of decent firepower at a good range, high mobility and absurd durability is worth way more than 180 points.
Sure, naked it may not have the raw firepower of many firepower centric models in that price range, but its ridiculous durability more than makes up the difference, let alone combined with the fact it can JSJ and has all those nifty Nova reactor options.
If that model were to be priced correctly based on its capabilities naked and unsupported it really would have crappy firepower for its price, but that's an argument against the unreasonable (and highly unfluffy) level of durability it boasts, not for keeping its price tag where it is...
PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.
Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever. And the basics I used were literally their old Dex stats.
I've seen you railing against 7th in multiple threads, maybe your idea of what units should be is dated by editions.
Galorian wrote:The point that team "it's not undercosted" seems to be missing is that, even for the base model, the combination of decent firepower at a good range, high mobility and absurd durability is worth way more than 180 points.
Sure, naked it may not have the raw firepower of many firepower centric models in that price range, but its ridiculous durability more than makes up the difference, let alone combined with the fact it can JSJ and has all those nifty Nova reactor options.
If that model were to be priced correctly based on its capabilities naked and unsupported it really would have crappy firepower for its price, but that's an argument against the unreasonable (and highly unfluffy) level of durability it boasts, not for keeping its price tag where it is...
Thank you for insulting our "team". Obviously we don't know what we are talking about. Please back up your arguments with valid and thorough arguments, don't just hand wave opposing viewpoints.
"Worth way more than 180pts". "absurd durability" "nifty Nova reactor option" I've said it multiple times, the Nova Reactor actively kills the Riptide. An HBC Riptide, which needs to Nova every turn actively kills itself. After six turns it has reduced itself to a 3 Wound model. This is how the Riptide was designed to be limited. Base it is not under costed, it's price is appropriate. It's still a good unit, but it's not the smoking gun it claims to be. Now, the IA Riptide is a bit different as it's firepower improves and it's need for it's Nova is greatly reduced. This does lead to significantly increased Durability. The IA upgrade is under costed, but not the Riptide itself.
Fluff arguments have no merit here, it's a diversion from the real point, the value and cost of the Riptide.
We can't change the cost of the Riptide or it's upgrade, this thread could be far more productive if it was directed at tactics and strategies for killing, mitigating, and defeating a Riptide based lists which with the release of 7th are going to decrease.
You must've missed the part where I noted it took nearly 3 times its point value in its theoraticaly "hard counters" (aka high S low AP weapons) to shoot it dead in 3 shooting phases' worth of uninterrupted shooting, and mathhammering confirmed that it was, in fact, a rather average showing statistically.
That level of durability needs to come with a VERY high price tag, especially if it comes combined with decent ranged firepower, great mobility and flexability and awesome in-codex synergies.
As for the fluff argument, all it came to show is that there's no reason to make the Riptide anywhere near as durable as it is, and with less durability it could actually be reasonably priced AND have good firepower for its cost.
PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.
Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever. And the basics I used were literally their old Dex stats.
I've seen you railing against 7th in multiple threads, maybe your idea of what units should be is dated by editions.
I notice all of your calculations are based off the front armour value of the Leman Russ, you have not factored the upgrades available to Riptides or their ability to gain a 3++ save, and your post exclusively deals with damage output and durability when the RIptide has a lot more going for it, like better manoeuvrability, cheap access to Skyfire and Interceptor, and secondary weapon systems with Homing and Ignores Cover.
Plus I was directing my post at other posts in this thread comparing the Riptide to Canoptek Wraiths, Annihilation Barges and Wraithknights.
PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.
Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever. And the basics I used were literally their old Dex stats.
I've seen you railing against 7th in multiple threads, maybe your idea of what units should be is dated by editions.
I notice all of your calculations are based off the front armour value of the Leman Russ, you have not factored the upgrades available to Riptides or their ability to gain a 3++ save, and your post exclusively deals with damage output and durability when the RIptide has a lot more going for it, like better manoeuvrability, cheap access to Skyfire and Interceptor, and secondary weapon systems with Homing and Ignores Cover.
Plus I was directing my post at other posts in this thread comparing the Riptide to Canoptek Wraiths, Annihilation Barges and Wraithknights.
Also conveniently ignores the fact both Leman Russes and Annihilation Barges generally die to their own points value in anti-tank fire in a turn or two, and that's without mentioning some of the things that have a fair chance of insta-killing them for less (melta/fusion anyone?). Hell, I've been in a game where a HBC Riptide wounded itself every turn for 3 turns straight trying to Nova charge and got next to no ML support and it still more than earned back its points without ever realistically being under the threat of actually dying.
I'll admit that Annihilation Barges are undercosted (not by as much as some people seem to think though), particularly with the boosts it received in 7th and the skyfire nerf, but at least it isn't a complete OoCP for most TAC lists- it can be killed rather easily by plenty of commonly available weapons, it doesn't have serious in-codex synergies aside from the off +1 cover bonus from stealth one in a while (unless you count plain threat saturation to be a form of synergy), it lacks the ability to deal with high AV vehicles and 2+ armor saves and struggles at killing massed cheap infantry (~4 guardsmen per turn for an average shooting phase if it doesn't move and they're out of cover! f**k yeah!).
And yeah, the Wraithknight is also terribly overpowered for its cost, the reason it doesn't get as much flak as the Riptide is the fact it's eclipsed in its own codex by the broken mess that is the Wave Serpent spam and the Jetseer Council...
Yep, it's super durable, and without a large amount of support it's damage output isn't that high.
If you factor in the Support elements it's cost is much much higher. It's damage output isn't that high, and less points effective than a Leman Russ.
Assuming no FNP Leman Russ is is even harder to hurt with small arms. 270 BS4 Bolter Shots vs Infinity
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Assault Cannons. 45 BS4 S6 Rending Shots vs 81 and 122 with Cover.
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Lascannons 13.5 BS4 Lascannons vs 20 Assuming easy 5+ Cover 13.5 Without Cover
Leman Russ is hard to catch as it moves 6" and maintains long Range. It can Tank Shock.
Oh, and the Riptide actively hurts itself with its Nova Reactor.
Granted the Russ can possibly be one shotted, but so can a Riptide by ID weapons. Riptides are also vulnerable to Psychic powers like Psychic Shriek and Leadership based attacks.
Damage Output vs 3+ AS or Worse the Leman Russ is 120% as efficient at dealing damage at long range.
A Leman Russ is only 2/3 the cost. The Riptide is more damaging vs Vehicles and 2+AS. But, the IA Riptide gets hot.
Sure the Riptide can use Markerlights to Ignore Cover, so can the Russ thanks to Orders.
Doesn't look like the Riptide is that overpowered, at least not as a shooting platform using the Ian Riptide and a Leman Russ as an example. The Riptide is more versatile and mobile, but is not quite as indestructible as some would think. I could have compared it to Land Raiders, which require specialized attacks to handle. Riptides are no different.
I'm just supplying the math, which tracts with my experiences. I've tried to relay all of this information to the thread in the best way possible.. The Riptide is a great unit, the IA and EWO are under costed, but as is it isn't that far outside the realm of reasonable threats.
Your conclusions are misleading. Adding the cost of a supporting unit is just more misdirection. Let me add the cost of a prescience sorc to a Forgefiend if you want to compare that way. You are cherry picking scenarios and drawing conclusions that are unsupported by the evidence. Practically, the riptide is also immune to bolters as 270 is an absurd amount. It takes over two full squads of tacticals in rapid fire range to take a single wound off the riptide. Not that they would ever get there since it can jump away. Similarly no one is getting anything close 45 assault cannon shots on these things nor is it good vs LR either.
If you think its harder to hurt a LR with lascannons than a riptide I think we are at an impasse. You've taken only the front armor value, discounted the extremity of disadvantage in being one shot, weapon destroyed, shaken, stunned. What are all these ranged ID weapons that Riptide is afraid of that you're referring to? Yes they are vulnerable to Ld based attacks but those attacks are rare, expensive, and much harder to use than the normal weapons that take out LRs but the Riptide can shrug off all day. I also find it hilarious you mark the LR as hard to catch because it can move 6". But then again you may be right since the LR is so much more efficient than a Riptide thats probably why everyone is spamming squadrons of them right? and tau are allying them in just so they can have one since they are clearly better than riptides.
MWHistorian wrote: Legitimate question:
Are there any non Tau players that think the riptide isn't OP?
I think they're good, but nowhere near as dominant as they were in 6th with the loss of Buff Commanders and Eldar Divination support. I'd also agree that the baseline Bursttide is pointed pretty correctly. The fusion blasters shouldn't be a free upgrade, and the Ion Accelerator is far too cheap for what the model gains.
You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.
Its durability is just too high. Its nearly immune to small arms fire and even takes an inordinate amount of heavy firepower to destroy. It isn't easy to catch it in assault given its high degree of mobility and once there doesn't fold as easy as many people are saying. To average one wound you need 54 cc attacks from marines even when it doesn't have fnp. That means in order to actually have a decent chance killing it in cc you need to be fast enough to catch 6+2D6" movement, weather heavy shooting, and pack a mean punch if you get there. The thing has little to no downsides besides very specific counters. The thread is full of people talking about how many points of damage it can do vs how much it costs while not really factoring in that its durability adds a way over the top value to the unit. If it was T5 4W 3+ people would laugh it like they do walking demon princes.
Nearly immune to small arms fire my green orky butt. Main reason i lose mine is because it got shot at by a couple units of infantry and caused 4-6 wounds, which i end up failing 1-2 of them somehow. I rarely lose my riptide to BIG weapons, but i lose it all the time to insignificant crap like bolters. Rate of fire no matter how weak can kill things long as it can even hurt it to begin with. Highly resilient to small arms, yes, nearly immune hell fething no. Wanna know how my orks deal with 2+ armor? Shoot it until it dies with Shootas or Lootas. Quite effective actually. This is why i regard the Wraithknight as far more broken than the Riptide - T8 is IMMUNE to small arms fire, riptide is just resistant.
PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.
This is kind of an invalid comment. Lets say we nerf all the "overpowered" units so theyre more evenly balanced to normal units. Something will always be considered overpowered and undercosted because youre comparing it to the rest of the army. Even a slight shift in power per point will set people off on the rampage of crying OVERPOWERED!!!
Theres only really one ID ranged weapon that you are likely to see, the Distort on the wraithknight / FW serpent variant, and that is only on a 6.
I use ABG from IA22nd ed as pure wraithknight / riptide counter. AQllies slot, for around 500 points I get 2 BS4, TL if in 36" range and a heavystubber shot hits, small blast S8 AP2 instant death. Generally Im hitting. I also then stick a super scoring demolisher in the troops slot, for general havoc causing.
PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.
Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever.
Pffftt hahahaha, sincerest apologies but that is tripe
Unless this is sarcasm in which case I must yet continue to apologise
My only complaint about Russes were when i field orks i tend to get slammed with multiple pi plates across the table on top of the barrage weapons every IG player takes. Which thats more of a counter strat than broken, so my complaint is irrelevant lol. Never faced an IG player with my orks that didnt do that tactic, even when i ran a wagon list/biker list and the pi plates were less effective (but still effective enough )
Well, as a Necron player, one of my main reasons I'm butt hurt about the Riptide is the fact that a C'tan Shard costs way more points, has a worse save, less wounds, nowhere near as good gun options, and is nowhere near as mobile. Why would a Riptide be cheaper, and overall better than a shard of a star god? I dunno, kinda pisses me off.
MWHistorian wrote: Legitimate question:
Are there any non Tau players that think the riptide isn't OP?
I play Daemons, and no, in 7th edition I don't think the Riptide is OP.
Maybe slightly undercosted with certain upgrades, but overall, it got massively kicked in balls by the new rules preventing the shenanigans of Buffmanders or Divination boosts and such. (and rightly so!)
Nearly immune to small arms fire my green orky butt. Main reason i lose mine is because it got shot at by a couple units of infantry and caused 4-6 wounds, which i end up failing 1-2 of them somehow. I rarely lose my riptide to BIG weapons, but i lose it all the time to insignificant crap like bolters. Rate of fire no matter how weak can kill things long as it can even hurt it to begin with. Highly resilient to small arms, yes, nearly immune hell fething no.
Wanna know how my orks deal with 2+ armor? Shoot it until it dies with Shootas or Lootas. Quite effective actually.
This is why i regard the Wraithknight as far more broken than the Riptide - T8 is IMMUNE to small arms fire, riptide is just resistant.
I have a really hard time believing this. In a dice game sure you're going to have fluke rolls but that doesn't mean its a viable tactic or say anything to power level a unit. 40 bolter shots ("couple" of tactical units who somehow got into rapid fire range unmolested) have about 17% chance to cause 2 wounds as you state. They need to do this 3 turns to kill the riptide. This is not a viable strategy. You must be the unluckiest person in the world if your riptides are regularly dying to small arms fire, or maybe not using balanced dice. The idea of taking out riptides with shootas is even more hilarious coming in at a 540 shots to kill one, or 60 boys shooting for 4 turns. Have fun with that. Simultaneous to your horrible tau dice you must have anomaly level good luck with your orks if this actually works for you.
love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.
Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.
Vineheart01 wrote: love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice.
We use math because comparing anecdotal evidence isn't helpful. Throwing a couple handfuls of dice isn't going to give you a good picture either.
Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are.
This is not a well known fact. The distribution does not get more skewed with more dice. Everyday dice follow nearly perfectly to a binomial distribution which is perfectly symmetrical (i.e. No skew).
Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.
No, what you are seeing are low probability outcomes. Nothing says this shouldn't happen, in fact the are explicitly predicted. However, planning on getting these "lucky" results does not make for a good strategy. If you can disprove what the math actually says, you should publish a paper. You'll get a Nobel prize for disproving the fundamentals of statistics.
Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.
What are you guaranteeing me? Because I will take whatever you are giving. Ones are not noticeably more likely than any other number if you are using non-loaded dice. Statistics does in fact account for the dice bumping into each other, its called randomness. If the dice fell in easily predictable ways they'd be useless. The reason we use dice at all is they are random. The fact that you recognize there are equal number of events where you fail nothing suggests that you know your whole premise is incorrect. For all those lucky outcomes there are an equal amount of unlucky ones. You can't judge the units usefulness based on "one time I roll 3 ones out of 6 dice, riptides aren't durable at all!"
Lets make a bit of a comparison between the naked, unsupported vanilla 180pts Riptide and a pair of the widely accepted to be under-priced Annihilation Barges-
I'll assume the Nova Charge is used in cases where it would achieve a large enough increase in damage output compared to ripple fire (~50%+), which is T5 Sv2+ out of cover, T6 Sv2+ out of cover, T7 Sv2+ in and out of cover, T7 Sv3+ out of cover, T8 Sv2+ in and out of cover and T8 Sv3+ out of cover:
% increase in damage output via use of reactor vs targets out of cover:
Target % increase
T3 Sv5+ 38.10
T3 Sv4+ 48.48
T3 Sv3+ 38.10
T3 Sv2+ 38.10
T4 Sv5+ 41.67
T4 Sv4+ 51.28
T4 Sv3+ 41.67
T4 Sv2+ 41.67
T5 Sv5+ 42.67
T5 Sv4+ 52.03
T5 Sv3+ 42.67
T5 Sv2+ 152.00
T6 Sv5+ 44.44
T6 Sv4+ 53.33
T6 Sv3+ 44.44
T6 Sv2+ 200.00
T7 Sv5+ 48.48
T7 Sv4+ 56.14
T7 Sv3+ 145.45
T7 Sv2+ 309.09
T8 Sv5+ 38.10
T8 Sv4+ 48.48
T8 Sv3+ 200.00
T8 Sv2+ 457.14
% increase in damage output via use of reactor vs targets in 5+ cover:
Target % increase
T3 Sv5+ 31.37
T3 Sv4+ 42.67
T3 Sv3+ 38.10
T3 Sv2+ 38.10
T4 Sv5+ 35.09
T4 Sv4+ 45.98
T4 Sv3+ 41.67
T4 Sv2+ 41.67
T5 Sv5+ 36.16
T5 Sv4+ 46.89
T5 Sv3+ 42.67
T5 Sv2+ 42.67
T6 Sv5+ 38.10
T6 Sv4+ 48.48
T6 Sv3+ 44.44
T6 Sv2+ 44.44
T7 Sv5+ 42.67
T7 Sv4+ 52.03
T7 Sv3+ 48.48
T7 Sv2+ 200.00
T8 Sv5+ 31.37
T8 Sv4+ 42.67
T8 Sv3+ 38.10
T8 Sv2+ 285.71
Holy crap! Why would you ever NOT use it?? For 2 wounds a game on average (out of a model most armies can't realistically bring down anyway, or can theoretically but won't bother trying) you get, at worst, a 31.37% boost to firepower.
Was planning on doing two comparisons, one with reactor use and one without, but f**k that- if you aren't using the reactor you aren't playing the model right...
Now for the actual comparison-
Spoiler:
Target Firepower per point compared to Annihilation Barges against targets out of cover:
T3 Sv5+ 98.86
T3 Sv4+ 102.08
T3 Sv3+ 51.79
T3 Sv2+ 72.50
T4 Sv5+ 98.08
T4 Sv4+ 105.36
T4 Sv3+ 53.13
T4 Sv2+ 70.83
T5 Sv5+ 81.89
T5 Sv4+ 89.90
T5 Sv3+ 46.12
T5 Sv2+ 102.72
T6 Sv5+ 76.97
T6 Sv4+ 86.25
T6 Sv3+ 44.32
T6 Sv2+ 112.50
T7 Sv5+ 68.06
T7 Sv4+ 79.46
T7 Sv3+ 67.50
T7 Sv2+ 129.81
T8 Sv5+ 57.24
T8 Sv4+ 61.25
T8 Sv3+ 71.59
T8 Sv2+ 162.50
Target Firepower per point compared to Annihilation Barges against targets in 5+ cover:
T3 Sv5+ 83.75
T3 Sv4+ 83.59
T3 Sv3+ 60.42
T3 Sv2+ 72.50
T4 Sv5+ 80.21
T4 Sv4+ 83.55
T4 Sv3+ 60.71
T4 Sv2+ 70.83
T5 Sv5+ 65.49
T5 Sv4+ 69.62
T5 Sv3+ 51.44
T5 Sv2+ 58.15
T6 Sv5+ 60.42
T6 Sv4+ 65.63
T6 Sv3+ 48.75
T6 Sv2+ 54.17
T7 Sv5+ 51.44
T7 Sv4+ 58.44
T7 Sv3+ 43.75
T7 Sv2+ 95.19
T8 Sv5+ 46.53
T8 Sv4+ 47.77
T8 Sv3+ 36.25
T8 Sv2+ 112.50
So against most targets the Annihilation Barge has more firepower per point than the Riptide, particularly against targets in cover, though for 17 out of 48 cases it manages to have at least 80% of the wounds per point ratio of the Annihilation Barge (which is definitely undercosted, as well as less durable and less mobile) and in 7 of those it actually manages to put out MORE wounds per point than the Barge (ironically, two of them are basically Tau Fire Warriors and Necron Warriors).
This, however, does not tell the whole story- thusfar I assumed the Annihilation Barge remained stationary and did not Jinx in order to fire at full BS. Given the fact that the Riptide has both greater range and superior mobility (barring going flat out the Barge falls short of the Riptide's average of 13" per turn even while cruising) and the fact that the Barge is practically made of explodium when fired at by dedicated AT if it doesn't Jinx, I think it would only be fair to make a second comparison, this time to a Barge that moved at cruising speed and/or Jinxed and is therefore snap-firing all its guns:
Target Firepower per point compared to Annihilation Barges against targets out of cover:
T3 Sv5+ 174.00
T3 Sv4+ 188.46
T3 Sv3+ 103.57
T3 Sv2+ 120.83
T4 Sv5+ 167.21
T4 Sv4+ 187.30
T4 Sv3+ 101.49
T4 Sv2+ 115.25
T5 Sv5+ 134.87
T5 Sv4+ 153.28
T5 Sv3+ 83.59
T5 Sv2+ 162.93
T6 Sv5+ 124.47
T6 Sv4+ 143.75
T6 Sv3+ 78.00
T6 Sv2+ 176.09
T7 Sv5+ 106.52
T7 Sv4+ 127.14
T7 Sv3+ 112.50
T7 Sv2+ 198.53
T8 Sv5+ 92.55
T8 Sv4+ 102.08
T8 Sv3+ 126.00
T8 Sv2+ 254.35
Target Firepower per point compared to Annihilation Barges against targets in 5+ cover:
T3 Sv5+ 139.58
T3 Sv4+ 144.59
T3 Sv3+ 111.54
T3 Sv2+ 120.83
T4 Sv5+ 130.51
T4 Sv4+ 140.33
T4 Sv3+ 107.94
T4 Sv2+ 115.25
T5 Sv5+ 103.88
T5 Sv4+ 113.28
T5 Sv3+ 87.70
T5 Sv2+ 92.24
T6 Sv5+ 94.57
T6 Sv4+ 105.00
T6 Sv3+ 81.25
T6 Sv2+ 84.78
T7 Sv5+ 78.68
T7 Sv4+ 90.78
T7 Sv3+ 70.00
T7 Sv2+ 145.59
T8 Sv5+ 72.83
T8 Sv4+ 76.43
T8 Sv3+ 60.42
T8 Sv2+ 176.09
Huh... What do you know? All of a sudden the Riptide is putting out more firepower per point in 34 out of 48 cases, a hell of a lot more than breaks even (120% or better) in 22 of those, and only drops below 80% in 6 cases.
And remember, the Riptide, even though it loses an average 2 wounds to Nova reactor failures, is still more mobile, durable and has FAR superior in-codex synergies, not to mention all those upgrades even Riptide apologists admit are severely undercosted, and you yourselves admitted the Annihilation Barge is undercosted.
Any particular reason you used the suboptimal weapon choice for the Annihilation Barge? Fluffing your data set as well done as it was?
Tesla is vastly superior, and really doesn't care about moving as much. And assuming the Annihilation Barge will be snap shotting all the time is erroneous. Tesla Destructor generates 5.33 Hits normal and is only reduced to 3.72 while making Snap Shots, which is also it rate of hit at S7 vs Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs.
By the way, the mathhammer was awesome, thank you. I invite you to rerun the numbers using Tesla, I've love to see them.
Edit: And don't forget to reduce the Riptides Nova Charged firepower to only being increased 2/3 of the time as a Failed NovaReactor fails to Nova Charge the weapon.
Vineheart01 wrote: love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.
Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.
I dare you to come to a lecture in Thermal Physics and repeat this statement to the Professor in charge.
Having him prove the Central limit theorem to dissuade you of this notion would be rather hilarious.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zagman wrote: Any particular reason you used the suboptimal weapon choice for the Annihilation Barge? Fluffing your data set as well done as it was?
Tesla is vastly superior, and really doesn't care about moving as much. And assuming the Annihilation Barge will be snap shotting all the time is erroneous. Tesla Destructor generates 5.33 Hits normal and is only reduced to 3.72 while making Snap Shots, which is also it rate of hit at S7 vs Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs.
By the way, the mathhammer was awesome, thank you. I invite you to rerun the numbers using Tesla, I've love to see them.
I went with Gauss because I find it to be a better option that makes the Barge more versatile, though I could run the math if you wish. As for the snap shot thing, you could always average the two results if you feel an even mix of stationary, combat speed and cruising speed/Jinx is more likely.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zagman wrote: Edit: And don't forget to reduce the Riptides Nova Charged firepower to only being increased 2/3 of the time as a Failed NovaReactor fails to Nova Charge the weapon.
krodarklorr wrote: Well, as a Necron player, one of my main reasons I'm butt hurt about the Riptide is the fact that a C'tan Shard costs way more points, has a worse save, less wounds, nowhere near as good gun options, and is nowhere near as mobile. Why would a Riptide be cheaper, and overall better than a shard of a star god? I dunno, kinda pisses me off.
That's a C'tan problem, not a riptide one.
The C'tan comes in two breeds now, the "ah hell" LoW version and "lolwat?" codex version.
The codex C'tan is just....made of fail I'd guess. made even worse by the fact its in a codex with so many powerful and versatile options to further overshadow it.
They should scratch the shards off the rooster and turn the models into other LoW level c'tans (not as mighty as the one that's out there though. lower level LoW would be welcomed)
Back to the riptide, galorian if you are going to keep on anctodal evidence, I'll counter you by the fact my decked out riptide took 3 wounds in one turn from a mere annibarge and a few warriors of yours, so I had to make him run for it. I'd also note that in your example not "direct counters" as each and every one of the units presented has additional powers that you pay for and do not come into play in that scenario (the Tark has other shooting options, the pylon is a skyfire interceptor with S levels high enough to be beyond efficiency, the Gark is a warrior ressurction platform, etc)
And when you look at the reverse, just how much damage did the riptide do in return? a bullet magnet it may be, but unsupported, you can safely ignore him while you reduce his surrounding to dust, then turn on the tides when its done.
The riptide's whole "thing" is to never, ever die. that's his specialty. he (in theory) pays for it by being weak on the offensive for his costs. the IA brakes that intention and that is why we say that the problem with the riptide. in 6th it was also broken by the (obviously unintended yet totally legal) IC shenanigans and the fact cheap divination psyker allies were a thing and were amazingly powerful on their own right.
Once IA is taken out of the equation, the riptide truly is a monster in defensive terms, yet totally lackluster on offensive ones. a bullet magnet that is doing what he can to force your attention, in hopes I can get him into positions you really can't afford to ignore, and then its superior defenses will come into play.
EDIT: holds true to all NOVA usage. even defensive ones. you fail-you hurt yourself and get nothing for it. and using gauss really was cheesy of you, you know very well that the tesla is the reason its considered OP, not the gauss. the gauss is, unimpressive at best. (when was the last time you fielded the gauss?)
Vineheart01 wrote: love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.
Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.
I dare you to come to a lecture in Thermal Physics and repeat this statement to the Professor in charge.
Having him prove the Central limit theorem to dissuade you of this notion would be rather hilarious.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zagman wrote: Any particular reason you used the suboptimal weapon choice for the Annihilation Barge? Fluffing your data set as well done as it was?
Tesla is vastly superior, and really doesn't care about moving as much. And assuming the Annihilation Barge will be snap shotting all the time is erroneous. Tesla Destructor generates 5.33 Hits normal and is only reduced to 3.72 while making Snap Shots, which is also it rate of hit at S7 vs Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs.
By the way, the mathhammer was awesome, thank you. I invite you to rerun the numbers using Tesla, I've love to see them.
I went with Gauss because I find it to be a better option that makes the Barge more versatile, though I could run the math if you wish. As for the snap shot thing, you could always average the two results if you feel an even mix of stationary, combat speed and cruising speed/Jinx is more likely.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zagman wrote: Edit: And don't forget to reduce the Riptides Nova Charged firepower to only being increased 2/3 of the time as a Failed NovaReactor fails to Nova Charge the weapon.
I accounted for that fact.
It holds true for the ripple fire as well right?
Yes, it holds true for the Ripple Fire as well.
Tesla is vastly superior to Guass. Make sure you run the comparison vs AV10-14 as well. Two Annihilation Barges deal 10.7 S7 hits when not making Snap shots, compare that to 6 S6 Rending shots from the Nova Charged Riptide, or the 4 S6 from the Non Nova.
Also, don't forget that for every three turns(36 shots) the Riptide fires its NOVAed Gets Hot Weapon, it takes a wound. So, with Nova and Get's Hot wounds the HBC Riptide deals 3.33 Wounds to itself in 6 Turns. Its a huge mitigating factor that either results in the Riptide's death, or a marked decrease in lategame firepower.
I strongly suggest you run the Tesla numbers, it is truly amazing how powerful that weapon is and for your own benefit run those numbers against its Guass Counterpart especially when Cover/Invulnerable Saves and Armor Values are present. And trust me, when Flyers are taken into account the difference is truly obscene.
IMO the Guass Annihilation Barge isn't really undercosted, and if it is, it isn't by much. Its Tesla where it really shines.
krodarklorr wrote: Well, as a Necron player, one of my main reasons I'm butt hurt about the Riptide is the fact that a C'tan Shard costs way more points, has a worse save, less wounds, nowhere near as good gun options, and is nowhere near as mobile. Why would a Riptide be cheaper, and overall better than a shard of a star god? I dunno, kinda pisses me off.
That's a C'tan problem, not a riptide one.
The C'tan comes in two breeds now, the "ah hell" LoW version and "lolwat?" codex version.
The codex C'tan is just....made of fail I'd guess. made even worse by the fact its in a codex with so many powerful and versatile options to further overshadow it.
They should scratch the shards off the rooster and turn the models into other LoW level c'tans (not as mighty as the one that's out there though. lower level LoW would be welcomed)
Back to the riptide, galorian if you are going to keep on anctodal evidence, I'll counter you by the fact my decked out riptide took 3 wounds in one turn from a mere annibarge and a few warriors of yours, so I had to make him run for it. I'd also note that in your example not "direct counters" as each and every one of the units presented has additional powers that you pay for and do not come into play in that scenario (the Tark has other shooting options, the pylon is a skyfire interceptor with S levels high enough to be beyond efficiency, the Gark is a warrior ressurction platform, etc)
And when you look at the reverse, just how much damage did the riptide do in return? a bullet magnet it may be, but unsupported, you can safely ignore him while you reduce his surrounding to dust, then turn on the tides when its done.
The riptide's whole "thing" is to never, ever die. that's his specialty. he (in theory) pays for it by being weak on the offensive for his costs. the IA brakes that intention and that is why we say that the problem with the riptide. in 6th it was also broken by the (obviously unintended yet totally legal) IC shenanigans and the fact cheap divination psyker allies were a thing and were amazingly powerful on their own right.
Once IA is taken out of the equation, the riptide truly is a monster in defensive terms, yet totally lackluster on offensive ones. a bullet magnet that is doing what he can to force your attention, in hopes I can get him into positions you really can't afford to ignore, and then its superior defenses will come into play.
EDIT: holds true to all NOVA usage. even defensive ones. you fail-you hurt yourself and get nothing for it. and using gauss really was cheesy of you, you know very well that the tesla is the reason its considered OP, not the gauss. the gauss is, unimpressive at best. (when was the last time you fielded the gauss?)
I backed said "anecdotal evidence" with a calculation that showed that if anything, I performed above average to take that Riptide down in 3 turns. Moreover, I did not include the cost of the Ghost Ark, the Overlord tax for the Court or the Warrior tax of the Ark in the cost calculation.
As for the Barge, I ALWAYS field the Gauss.
It's the underslung cannon that's not twin linked dumbass... (P.S. I'm a friend of Boomwolf in real life, don't get your panties in a knot)
As noted earlier in the thread, the Riptide is very difficult to take down, but it's damage output isn't that high. That is, until you start to factor in the extras, like Pathfinders with their Markerlights, a Buffmander (which I think you can't really do anymore? Attach an IC to a Riptide? I haven't really thought about that until now), and all the other little support stuff that you take in a Tau army. The thing is, all that wargear and extras are ALWAYS taken, even if there is no Riptide in the army. The extras are just too good not to take. Using the argument that the Riptide is actually over-costed because of the extras to make it better is a spurious argument at best. Those extras will be taken whether its for a unit of Missilesides, or Hammerheads, or an army of nothing but Crisis Suits.
I'd hate to see a nerfbat taken to the Riptide though. It's a fantastic model, the rules for it are pretty good, and I think it gives the Tau an extra heavy hitter besides a Hammerhead, fragile Broadsides, or suicide Crisis Suit squad. Maybe the problem is that the Tau just have nothing better to take? That it's an obvious choice, similar to the Helldrake?
If we really start talking about adjusting (nerfing) the Riptide, then I think we'll also have to talk about the Eldar Wraithknight, Imperial Knights, Chaos Maulerfiend, and the new Ork Gorkanaut/Morkanaut.
Vineheart01 wrote: love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.
Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.
I dare you to come to a lecture in Thermal Physics and repeat this statement to the Professor in charge.
Having him prove the Central limit theorem to dissuade you of this notion would be rather hilarious.
Umm, he is talking the fact that the chances are no longer even. The CL theorem is not related at all.
The riptide's whole "thing" is to never, ever die. that's his specialty. he (in theory) pays for it by being weak on the offensive for his costs. the IA brakes that intention and that is why we say that the problem with the riptide. in 6th it was also broken by the (obviously unintended yet totally legal) IC shenanigans and the fact cheap divination psyker allies were a thing and were amazingly powerful on their own right.
Once IA is taken out of the equation, the riptide truly is a monster in defensive terms, yet totally lackluster on offensive ones. a bullet magnet that is doing what he can to force your attention, in hopes I can get him into positions you really can't afford to ignore, and then its superior defenses will come into play.
First off thanks Zagman for being the voice of reason here.
Secondly boomwolf is right in this quote above. I take riptides to be shot at so the rest of my army can tare you apart while you are distracted by "OMG JetPackMC!1!!". Yes, it can do some damage, I won't deny that, and the IAIS undercosted. But most MCs are geared to CC and still have a better Ballistic Skill than a riptide, which can easily hurt itself or not fire at all, killing its offensive potential.
The rest of the tau army doesn't have the ability to stand up to any real counters. Don't have the numbers like IG or necrons even with the same or better armor save. No psychics or any real CC ability (except the one time a single drone killed a SM captain! YAY for Randomness there!) and yes we have a few movement shenannigans but nothing really OP like eldar crazy 48" moves (not sure on the exact number but it is high) for example.
If you are shooting my riptides, and not its supporting members, I am probably going to win the game. Try playing a game against Tau with that in mind then come back and re access if riptides are Over priced.
Wait...apperantly there isn't even a main gauss cannon XD
Odd, remembered something of the sort to exist yet never taken. (the underslung guass is actually useful against my suits though)
Anyway, the numbers on the annibarge seem waaaay off anything I know from my fights against you, of them taking out things in twice and more the rate presented there. did you calculate the 6's triples and all in there? (or are your dice just that got made that poorly? won't count against GW dice being crooked as an option)
The numbers presented look like half of what I'm used to taking from them somehow x_X
Though using "jink" numbers is also a mistake. they don't need to jinx all the time, only when serius anti-tank is aimed at their heads. this equals to the riptide setting off his 3++ to protect it from serius anti-MC fire coming his way, except the barge gets to do it in the last moment, and suffer the next turn, and the tide need to do so per-emptivly, and pays for it in firepower right now. (and if you took FnP to get your defenses to "always up", its 35 points extra to efficency calculations) After all a jinxed annibarge is virtually untouchable by most shooters, and unlike other skimmers, it still shoots pretty fine. (though seeing the numbers, it seems like the jink change did hurt it a bit. the reduction IS meaningful enough)
Also, i'd like to note that when targeting AV values, the annibarge will likely come way in advance. also flyers.
stopcallingmechief wrote: i find it grossly under-prices, my friend runs a farsight enclave list of all suits, as of lastweek i officially refuse to play him with my chaos space marines, literally ordered $600 bucks worth of eldar 4 days ago, i will only field it vs his tau and every other player at my club ill use my marines against.
should be 220 base cost and the accelerator should be another 20 ontop of it. The worst part to me is my buddy refuses to acknowledge its overpowered. "its useless without using nova and i wound myself 33% of the time", ya a s8 ap2 large template is useless.
Are you me?
You sound like me and you have the same problem.
Higher numbers mean poorer AB performance, so I'm largely sold on the Tesla cannon being the better option at the moment. However, the numbers aren't that much better- at full BS there's still 14 cases out of 48 where it achieves 80% or better, 5 of which actually have him dealing more damage per point, and when snap firing there's 35 cases of 80% or higher, 25 of which have him dealing more damage per point.
And again, you can't just ignore the fact it's FAR harder to kill, even factoring the 2-3 wounds he'd end up taking per game via Nova charging, significantly more mobile (even when the Barge sacrifices firepower for mobility), has immensely superior synergies within his own Codex and retardedly good upgrade options you'd be a fool not to take. Hell, unlike the Barge it's even capable of protecting itself in CC to a significant degree.
Yes, against AV12-13 vehicles the Barge DOES have a much better damage output and it's pretty good at taking down flyers as well, but on the flipside it's all but completely useless against AV14 and the Riptide can take a fairly cheap upgrade that lets it be better than the Barge at AA if the player feels he needs it to be.
"cheap upgrade?" its 20 points for that alone, further altering the cost/effect ratios against any other target for the negative side.
And how is he "far harder to kill" then the barge who is outright immune to S6 and below, and borderline impossible to hurt with S7? (and when anything even risks killing it, you jinx for a 3+ save on top of the tough armor) the barge is a durable tank. getting a pen on an AV13 skimmer isn't easy. (you can try it, calculate how much time it will take on average for the "dedicated anti-riptide" units in the example way back to actually get a single pen result stick on a barge, its alot.)
BoomWolf wrote: "cheap upgrade?" its 20 points for that alone, further altering the cost/effect ratios against any other target for the negative side.
It's an 11% nudge that turn it into one of the best AA platforms in the game, and you'd only take it if you felt like you need decent AA in your list so in practice if you take it it saves you points elsewhere (similar to how, in practice, all those markerlights you keep complaining are "required" to give the Riptide decent shooting, which is a notion I think I proved statistically false, are present in most Tau lists anyway regardless of whether or not they boast a Riptide thanks to how damn useful they are).
BoomWolf wrote: And how is he "far harder to kill" then the barge who is outright immune to S6 and below, and borderline impossible to hurt with S7? (and when anything even risks killing it, you jinx for a 3+ save on top of the tough armor) the barge is a durable tank. getting a pen on an AV13 skimmer isn't easy. (you can try it, calculate how much time it will take on average for the "dedicated anti-riptide" units in the example way back to actually get a single pen result stick on a barge, its alot.)
How do I jinx for 3+ again?
Oh, right, by taking a 185pts character that can buff 1 unit per turn.
You're also conveniently ignoring how easily anti-tank weapons can pop an open topped AV13 vehicle. Sure, autocannons aren't much of a threat so long as it has its QS up, but if you didn't bother bringing any serious anti-tank options to the table you failed at list building and will have a hard time with ANY vehicle that's more durable than a Chimera...
Remind me again, how much do these fusion spamming deep striking Crisis suits of yours cost?
[EDIT]
Oh, and while I don't consider my "dedicated anti-riptide" lineup to be very effective at anti-tank duty, making your argument quite the strawman, I'll entertain the notion an run the numbers- Combine the aforementioned group would have average of 0.637 penetrating hits per turn (0.189 explodes results per turn by the way), and I'm not even bothering with considering the added effects of results other than 'explodes!' nor am I factoring in glancing hits.
And yes, I assumed it jinxed for the 4+ save thus sacrificing a fair bit of firepower in the bargain (cause it's dead otherwise).
Don't nitpick on a typo x_x you know full well 4 and 3 are right next to each other.
And the same as I ignore melta when talking about the barge, it can be said you ignore poison when talking about the riptide. or gauss, or ID weapons, or EMP, or LD targeting weapons/powers, etc, etc.
We can't follow every single possibility, we stick to the basics here. but just as much as the pylon can be said to be anti-riptide, he is anti-tank (S9AP2 IS anti-tank realm). yet he wont get much done against the barge either.
Though melta IS often enough to be considered, so lets look at it.
The fusion suits by the way cost 53 each, for 2 BS3 melta shots (at slightly improved range) meaning a single hit on average, and then 26/36 chance to get a pen even if the deep-strike went perfect and I'm in range of the bonus. (and as we know, it can go horribly wrong)
And then jink can negate half of any pens I do get.
Sure, a pen is lethal, 50% kill on AP1 and lose the QS. but you need to score one first, and with AV13 on sides and affordable jink saves, its not easy-and requires far beyond its cost to reliably remove.
It takes 3 suits to reliably pen a jinked barge, and that's 159 points already. (3 suits will get 1.083 pens against jinks barge, assuming they are all in melta range) while the barge was 90. and I rely on a risky deepstrike maneuver to pull it off, rather then straight-shooting from range, and if it fails the unit can be rendered useless or outright die. (if I deepstrike in solos the negate the risk of losing entire teams, then each suit beyond the first increases the odds of a screwup as the area gets cluttered)
Not to mention the odds of getting a second good shot at another target later in the game is virtually non-existent unless you are against a parking lot, and that the gun is so highly specialized its mostly useless efficiency-wise against anything else, should AV values not show up.
So yea, its literally a perfect counter, solely dedicated to countering that unit type, and even they have a hard time being anywhere near efficient when targeting the barge. and they are considered some of the most efficient anti-tank solutions out there. and its 1.083 pens, not explosions. only half of these will acutally insta-kill,meaning that the barge is more likely then not to survive the 3 suits, even if crippled and reduced to manageable AV11.
AV13 skimmers just don't come in such a price, even the hammerhead while naked is 125, and the big side target is a 12, not a 13.
Now, for the markerlight point-yes, they are there. at the same sense other buff units are there. but its an additional unit, mostly a fragile one, and one that DOES change the cost of the army, because if 15% of your points went on marker support, you got 15% less guns.
Does it make them bad? hell no. they are great. but it does not mean they are free, either of point cost or of risk (as they are more often then not, super fragile.) you cannot (nor did you, but some people do) assume that a unit is marker-buffed while not calculating the fact the marker took a price, even if he was there anyway (as it means its not used to helping anyone else this turn. how different is it from another normal gun shooting at the same target for calculation purposes?)
On another note, I'd assume you use a spreadsheet of sorts for the calculations (so you just entire profile and get results)-mind sharing it? I'd like to run some calculations on some units.
For your Riptide calculations, I assume you used an SMS?
You didn't run the calculations for AV Targets especially AA targets, it would be telling before and after VT. I'm willing to be that the Annihilation Barges are more effective with Tesla as the Riptide with a VT and SMS. And it will be even more in favor of the Annihilation Barges if you run those numbers with the IA Riptide.
One of the main reasons the Annihilation Barge is undercosted is that it is an extremely effective weapon vs nearly every target in the game up to AV13 and especially Flyers. Even the Riptide has to specialize to become an AA platform. Annihilation Barges rock all light AV for stripping Hull Points.
Ignoring the small chance of Explodes results and double Immobilizes we can calculate how man hits of a certain Strength it takes to kill each. I'm going to Ignore S4 and S5 as well. This also doesn't take into account their Quantum shielding, which would be extremely difficult to calculate, luckily there are two Barges so it only makes a difference for 1-2 HP per Barge and only with High Strength Weapons.
6(2x3)HP AV13 4+ vs T6 2+/5++
Strength 6 AP- NA vs 60Hits
Strength 6 AP2 NA vs 15Hits
Strength 7 AP- 72 vs 45 Hits
Strength 7 AP2 72 vs 11Hits
Strength 8 AP- 36 vs 36 Hits with a 1.4% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 8 AP2 36 vs 9 Hits with a 2.7% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 9 AP- 24 vs 36 Hits with a 2.7% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 9 AP2 24 vs 9 Hits with a 5.5% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 10 AP2 18 vs 9 Hits with an 8.3% Chance of an explodes Result and a 11.1% Chance of a Distort Instant Death
And if we had favored in the amount of Expected Nova or Gets Hot wounds into the calculation, the Riptide is far more vulnerable on average than the Annihilation Barges. Looks like the Annihilation barges are more resilient in many situations than the Riptide and when coupled with Firepower Advantage of the Annihilation Barges it is clear why they are vastly over costed. The Riptide fails in comparison, though in a standard CAD the limit of Barge is 3, where as 3 Riptides is consistent with 6 Barges drawing more ire from the community.
Of especial note is how resilient the Annihilation Barge is to the most common forms of AT present in the Meta, S7. Of course this can't possibly account for dedicated AT strategies involving Melta, etc but is effective to represent say a Tau, IG, and Eldar long ranged Firepower.
Figured I'd run some durability numbers to further our comparison.
I don't care about points and gameplay, but the model is physically overpriced.
Gundam Master Grade kits at 12" tall with probably quad to quintuple the sprues (with varying color of plastics so paint isn't necessary) that are fully articulate can be purchased for $65 NIB.
Thus making the Riptide look like a terrible value presentation. Plus, it's not a Gundam. Which, may or may not be a good thing for you. But the kit comparison is still apt.
Why is everyone calculating wounds taken by the Riptide as if Tau players use their Nova reactor every single turn? In my experience they only use it for 4 turns maximum, factor in Feel No Pain and the Riptide is doing a lot less damage to itself than you think it is.
PrinceRaven wrote: Why is everyone calculating wounds taken by the Riptide as if Tau players use their Nova reactor every single turn? In my experience they only use it for 4 turns maximum, factor in Feel No Pain and the Riptide is doing a lot less damage to itself than you think it is.
An HBC Riptide needs to Nova every turn it has two or more wounds remaining, without NovaCharging it's HBC it has pretty low damage output. My HBC Riptides NOVA every single turn they have more than two wounds remaining and my ECPA does every single turn.
IA Riptides on the other hand don't have to Nova a Charge nearly as often, it's the main reason that the IA upgrade is undercosted. That being said, Gets Hot ruining it's Overcharged Blast profile once per game is extremely annoying. When using the Nova Reactor for an IA Riptide Ripple Fire is usually the best option, and Shield if you know you need to weather a ton of shooting in an upcoming turn.
Most people aren't running Stim Injectors on their Riptides, especially their IA Riptides. I recommend it as almost mandatory upgrade for HBC Riptides as it reduces their chance of self wounding down to 2/9 while spending the points on an Ia Riptide generally reduces it's overall offensive efficiency as they have much risk of self wounding.
I actually wrote a tactics on the Riptide in 6th, much of the information is still relevant. I should update it for 7th Edition... Riptide: My Take
PrinceRaven wrote: Are you sure HBC Riptides exist?
I'm not sure because, like unicorns, I've never actually seen one.
Lol, I've fielded them in over 30 tournament games including GT games and field them 2:1 compared to IA Riptides. And that was in 6th, in 7th the HBC is better at taking HP off of almost all AV. Most people underestimate how effective the HBC could be. If you are giving your Riptide a VT it's tough to beat the HBC Riptide, especially if it has an ECPA.
Let's do a comparison to a similar unit, comparisons are fun. Riptide with Ion Accelerator & Target Lock vs. Exocrine:
Points Cost The Exocrine is 20 points cheaper
Stats Exocrine has +1 WS and Initiative with a 3+ armour save
Riptide has +2 leadership with both a 2+ armour save and a 5+ invulnerable save
Special Rules and Wargear Exocrine is Fearless, gains +1 BS if it doesn't move, and suffers from Instinctive Behaviour - Hunt
Riptide can jump 2d6" in the assault phase, and can Nova Charge to either lose a wound 33.33% of the time or gain one of the following 66.67% of the time:
- A 3+ invulnerable save
- an added 2d6" to it's Thrust move
- The ability to fire it's secondary weapon twice
- A better profile on its weapon
Firepower Exocrine has 24" range and can fire either 6 shots or a Large Blast, both at Str 7 AP 2
Riptide has 72" range and can fire either 3 shots at Str 7 AP 2 or a Large Blast at Str 8 AP 2 that Gets Hot. It additionally has a further 4 shots at 30" range it may fire at a different target at Str 5 AP 5 Homing Ignores Cover
Conclusion: The increased durability, range, manoeuvrability and versatility of the Riptide is worth much more than 20 points. I cannot justify ever taking an Exocrine over a Riptide in an Unbound list.
Vineheart01 wrote: Kinda shocked i never see any Wraithknight hate threads - two 36" S10 AP1 guns on a virtually immortal model barring sniper spamming that causes ID on a 6? And you cant beat it in assault since its crazy in there too? Confused why riptides are the target.....
It's probably because Wraithknights are... 60 points more expensive than a Riptide.
if Riptides were as expensive as Wraithknights were, or even a little bit less, there probably wouldn't be as much grinding of teeth.
Calculating chances of things killing vehicles is a serious pain, especially with Quantum Shield involved, but my OCD acted up so you got yourself some final results. Note that I assumed it Jinxes and that most results are mutually exclusive- the chance of taking 1hp of damage, 2 hp of damage, getting wrecked and exploding are all mutually exclusive and the chances of getting stunned (accounted for Living Metal), immobilized (did not account for the fact you could get this result multiple times or the fact getting it would disable future jinx attempts) or losing the Tesla Destructor (accounted for the fact there's a 50% chance of destroying the secondary weapon but not for the fact you could get this result multiple times) are mutually exclusive with getting exploded. Getting penetrated is not mutually exclusive with anything since that would be too much of a pain to account for (hilariously that means losing a hull point is less likely than getting penned in some cases, as the loss of hull points excludes other hp loss results or getting exploded while penetrating does not).
I'd like to point out how these probabilities stack when determining how f**ked the Barge is in each instance-
The best probability for a wrecked result after 3 shots is for a S10 AP- weapon (1.1% at BS4) as the chances of scoring an 'Explodes!' result are much higher than the chances of scoring three hp of damage without scoring one across the board (save for S7, which can't penetrate). The best chance of actually killing the Barge with 3 shots however belongs to BS4 S10 AP1 (duh), with a total of 25.1% chance of either wrecking or exploding it. Even with a single shot the chance of a BS4 S10 AP1 weapon exploding the Barge is 8.3% (roughly 28 times the chances of 3 shots of the same gun to wreck it without blowing it up).
The real kicker however is what you get if you try to figure out how likely you are to make the AB useless the following turn (permanently or not)- The same BS4 S10 AP1 shot that had a mere 8.3% chance of outright exploding the Barge has a 13.8% chance of making it useless the following turn, and most of the added percentage is from permanent results (immobilized/lost TD), and loss of QS is 16.7% likely. 2 shots would explode the barge 16.4% of the time, but the total odds of it being useless next turn or worse are in fact 27.7%, and again, over 2/3 of the increase is from permanent results.
The chances of disabling the Annihilation Barge, either for the following turn or permanently, are as follows:
And this is all without taking into account the myriad anti-tank options available (haywire, armourbane, ordnance, tank-hunter, melta, lance, etc), the fact you could fire high S weapons first to drop the QS before opening up with the weaker ones, the fact that after the QS drops guns with S5 and above have open season on the Barge, the fact Ignores Cover is a thing or the fact it has a lower rear armor value.
[EDIT]
Forgot to multiply by 100, so these results are probabilities rather than percentages.
TheKbob wrote: I don't care about points and gameplay, but the model is physically overpriced.
Gundam Master Grade kits at 12" tall with probably quad to quintuple the sprues (with varying color of plastics so paint isn't necessary) that are fully articulate can be purchased for $65 NIB.
Thus making the Riptide look like a terrible value presentation. Plus, it's not a Gundam. Which, may or may not be a good thing for you.Definitely bad But the kit comparison is still apt.
Riptide: Overpriced. Seriously overpriced. TheKbob knows where it's at.
I'd like to point out how these probabilities stack when determining how f**ked the Barge is in each instance-
The best probability for a wrecked result after 3 shots is for a S10 AP- weapon (1.1% at BS4) as the chances of scoring an 'Explodes!' result are much higher than the chances of scoring three hp of damage without scoring one across the board (save for S7, which can't penetrate). The best chance of actually killing the Barge with 3 shots however belongs to BS4 S10 AP1 (duh), with a total of 25.1% chance of either wrecking or exploding it. Even with a single shot the chance of a BS4 S10 AP1 weapon exploding the Barge is 8.3% (roughly 28 times the chances of 3 shots of the same gun to wreck it without blowing it up).
The real kicker however is what you get if you try to figure out how likely you are to make the AB useless the following turn (permanently or not)- The same BS4 S10 AP1 shot that had a mere 8.3% chance of outright exploding the Barge has a 13.8% chance of making it useless the following turn, and most of the added percentage is from permanent results (immobilized/lost TD), and loss of QS is 16.7% likely. 2 shots would explode the barge 16.4% of the time, but the total odds of it being useless next turn or worse are in fact 27.7%, and again, over 2/3 of the increase is from permanent results.
I'd like to point out that said 3 S10AP1BS4 shots, from your most likely source of hammerheads, would amount to 375 points of intended anti-tank fire on naked hammerheads (real hammerheads in game cost more then 125 a piece, as they need some upgrades to be effective in-game, but we'll ignore it for now.)
That means its over four times the cost in guns intended for the sole purpose of taking out enemy tanks are required to outright kill it. nobody could argue that its not durable for its price.
Even if you permanently disable it (say, and I'll be generous, 75% to either kill or permanently disable it) it still took you over four times the price in dedicated counters to get 75% to take it out in a turn, and that's insane durability.
Sure, the fusion suits do it alot better, but as I already calculated before, to average out a single pen I need to get 159 points of suits-when you don't jinx. when you do I need double that, or 44 points of pathfindes to give me two markerlights (the dudes have heavy weapons, so if they moved, not nearly as effective), slightly more if I want a mobile center. that single pen that cost about 200 points to achieve under optimal conditions only gives a 50% chance to actually get an "explode" result. and that's when nto using jink.
Sp to get a reliable "explode" result against a jinked barge I'd need a whooping 636 points of fusions suits to all get into 9" range without anyone to mess up (that's 4 teams of 3), half this much if I'm sane enough to work with marker support to give both teams cover ignoring abilities (that requires 4 marks, on the most efficient platform that is the immobile pathfinder that's 88 points for markers alone. so combining the suits plus the markers its still 406 points (over four time the cost) to get a statistical average of one explode result to stick.
And it depends on two successful deepstrikes, and an immobile unit to be in range (if I want mobile markers, its even more points)
Its atrociously hard to kill the thing, even with dedicated counter-units who do nothing BUT target tanks and cover-ignoring support powers. side 13 is not easy to crack anyway, and when you can jink whenever a real threat comes up means there is hardly a weakness in it's shell, especially with it's smallish rear profile that is easy to hide.
Yes, getting a pen means its either dead outright, or severely crippled. but getting a pen requires a hell lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons on anything with AV13 and 4+ cover.
And before anyone says that "the hammerhead is the same", the hammerhead costs 38% more when naked, has side 12 and really IS rendered useless when jinked as his snap fire is far more effected. plus its mathematically worse at shooting against most targets even when not jinked.
I'd like to point out how these probabilities stack when determining how f**ked the Barge is in each instance-
The best probability for a wrecked result after 3 shots is for a S10 AP- weapon (1.1% at BS4) as the chances of scoring an 'Explodes!' result are much higher than the chances of scoring three hp of damage without scoring one across the board (save for S7, which can't penetrate). The best chance of actually killing the Barge with 3 shots however belongs to BS4 S10 AP1 (duh), with a total of 25.1% chance of either wrecking or exploding it. Even with a single shot the chance of a BS4 S10 AP1 weapon exploding the Barge is 8.3% (roughly 28 times the chances of 3 shots of the same gun to wreck it without blowing it up).
The real kicker however is what you get if you try to figure out how likely you are to make the AB useless the following turn (permanently or not)- The same BS4 S10 AP1 shot that had a mere 8.3% chance of outright exploding the Barge has a 13.8% chance of making it useless the following turn, and most of the added percentage is from permanent results (immobilized/lost TD), and loss of QS is 16.7% likely. 2 shots would explode the barge 16.4% of the time, but the total odds of it being useless next turn or worse are in fact 27.7%, and again, over 2/3 of the increase is from permanent results.
I'd like to point out that said 3 S10AP1BS4 shots, from your most likely source of hammerheads, would amount to 375 points of intended anti-tank fire on naked hammerheads (real hammerheads in game cost more then 125 a piece, as they need some upgrades to be effective in-game, but we'll ignore it for now.)
That means its over four times the cost in guns intended for the sole purpose of taking out enemy tanks are required to outright kill it. nobody could argue that its not durable for its price.
Even if you permanently disable it (say, and I'll be generous, 75% to either kill or permanently disable it) it still took you over four times the price in dedicated counters to get 75% to take it out in a turn, and that's insane durability.
Sure, the fusion suits do it alot better, but as I already calculated before, to average out a single pen I need to get 159 points of suits-when you don't jinx. when you do I need double that, or 44 points of pathfindes to give me two markerlights (the dudes have heavy weapons, so if they moved, not nearly as effective), slightly more if I want a mobile center. that single pen that cost about 200 points to achieve under optimal conditions only gives a 50% chance to actually get an "explode" result. and that's when nto using jink.
Sp to get a reliable "explode" result against a jinked barge I'd need a whooping 636 points of fusions suits to all get into 9" range without anyone to mess up (that's 4 teams of 3), half this much if I'm sane enough to work with marker support to give both teams cover ignoring abilities (that requires 4 marks, on the most efficient platform that is the immobile pathfinder that's 88 points for markers alone. so combining the suits plus the markers its still 406 points (over four time the cost) to get a statistical average of one explode result to stick.
And it depends on two successful deepstrikes, and an immobile unit to be in range (if I want mobile markers, its even more points)
Its atrociously hard to kill the thing, even with dedicated counter-units who do nothing BUT target tanks and cover-ignoring support powers. side 13 is not easy to crack anyway, and when you can jink whenever a real threat comes up means there is hardly a weakness in it's shell, especially with it's smallish rear profile that is easy to hide.
Yes, getting a pen means its either dead outright, or severely crippled. but getting a pen requires a hell lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons on anything with AV13 and 4+ cover.
And before anyone says that "the hammerhead is the same", the hammerhead costs 38% more when naked, has side 12 and really IS rendered useless when jinked as his snap fire is far more effected. plus its mathematically worse at shooting against most targets even when not jinked.
O_o
S8+2d6 pens AV13 with a 26/36 chance. You get two shots which cancels out the BS3, leaving you with 13/36 chance to pen after taking jinx into account, AKA 36.1%. That's per suit and ignoring the fact that the suit very often manages to get into the rear arc, meaning it actually needs only pen AV11, in which case it has a 45.8% chance of penning a Jinxing Barge.
Since it has AP1 vs an open topped skimmer any damage result barring a 1 lands a permanently damaging hit (roll a 1 and there's a 50% chance it would get disabled for a turn, roll a two and there's a 50% chance it loses its primary weapon, anything above that and it's as good as dead or outright explodes).
All tolled that's a 27.1% chance of permanently making the barge a non-issue (lost its TD, immobilized or explodes) if firing at the front or 34.4% to do so when firing at the rear.
But wait! There's deepstrike to take into account!
Let's say you're smart and place the guy 5" away from the Barge facing the center of its rear arc. there's a 1/3 chance of a direct hit on the deepstrike, otherwise lets assume half the directions you could scatter towards would cause a mishap if you scatter over 4" and the other half would result in you facing a side arc rather than the rear. Chance to roll 4 or less on 2d6 is 1/9 and the rest is split evenly between hitting AV13 and mishapping, giving you overall a 44.4% chance of hitting rear armor, 27.8% chance of hitting side and 27.8% chance of mishapping.
So the final verdict is that each suit has a 30.4% chance of getting a penetrating hit on a jinxing barge (at the very least leaving it at the mercy of any firewarrior or SMS on the board) and a 22.8% chance of effectively taking it out of the game or outright exploding it.
That's pretty damn good for a cheaper model that's all but impossible for the other guy to stop what with the skyfire nerf now making practically all non-Tau interceptors all but useless against ground targets...
Want me to run the numbers on how many fusion suits it would take to take out the last two wounds of a Riptide who hurt itself 3 times over the course of a game?
You know what? Lets.
You don't care about melta range anymore so you can drop the suit with a greater error margin- say 6" to make sure all scatter results save mishaps would keep you in range and most would still be in RF range. That's still 1/3 chance of a direct hit and a 1/12 chance of scattering 3" or less. If you scatter 4-5" you still won't ever mishap but there's a small chance you'll scatter directly away out of RF range- 4-5 on a 2d6 is a 7/36 chance, and let's say 1/6 of these would be out of RF. 6-12" inches of scatter, a 26/36 chance, is the "danger zone"- lets say 1/3 of these would mishap and of the remainder only half would be in RF range.
Grand total: 16% chance of mishap, 65.7% chance of rapid fire and 18.3% chance of single shot.
1/2 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/3 to pass invul- Totals in 41.6% chance of getting a wound in. You need to do that twice though, so that's actually 17.3% for a pair of suits to take the last two wounds off (and if they arrive so late in the game the Riptide managed to take 3 wounds off of itself by that time then they've already failed by giving it free reign anyhow).
The chance of 5 suits to take out an unwounded Riptide? A hilarious 1.25%, while they'll nuke a Barge roughly 72.6% of the time.
Yea, you missed here galorian
The suits are dedicated anti-tank, and not in any form anti-MC. totally different setups, totally different uses, and totally different stat-lines. they are horrid against any and all MCs.
Do the math with actual anti-MC unit if you want a fair comparison, not a super-specialized anti-tank unit. and as riptides cost twice as much, the anti-MC units should also cost twice as much.
Though it does seem that I somehow calculated the jink effect in twice with the suits. odd. so yea, suits get it done (as in killing it outright) with "mere" 5 suits I got 72.6% to take out, either outright or severely cripple a single barge. its still nearly three times the cost of dedicated and specialized units for a "good chance" of getting the job done.
BoomWolf wrote: Yea, you missed here galorian
The suits are dedicated anti-tank, and not in any form anti-MC. totally different setups, totally different uses, and totally different stat-lines. they are horrid against any and all MCs.
Do the math with actual anti-MC unit if you want a fair comparison, not a super-specialized anti-tank unit. and as riptides cost twice as much, the anti-MC units should also cost twice as much.
Though it does seem that I somehow calculated the jink effect in twice with the suits. odd. so yea, suits get it done (as in killing it outright) with "mere" 5 suits I got 72.6% to take out, either outright or severely cripple a single barge. its still nearly three times the cost of dedicated and specialized units for a "good chance" of getting the job done.
A single suit cripples the Barge with a nearly 1/3 chance, is cheaper than the Barge by a fair margin and is for all practical intents and purposes unstoppable for the opposing player, who only gets a say in the matter after the fact.
You have to remember that in statistics there is no such thing as 100%, the more models you put to the task the less of a return you get for your investment- a single suit gets a pen to stick on a 30.4% chance, two would have a 51.6% chance, three would get you 66.3%, four would get you 76.5%, five would bump it up to 83.7%, six would only edge that up to 88.6%, seven get you up to 92.1%, eight manage a staggering leap of 2.4% to 94.5%, etc...
By far the most likely outcome of a penetration would be the Barge exploding or being rendered permanently useless, but even in the off chance that doesn't happen it's left as an AV11 open topped skimmer with 2 hp out in the open against an army that spams S5 shooting, a good deal of it has both ignores cover and ignores line of sight and just about all of it has superior range, not to mention the fair quantities of S6-8 shooting Tau armies toss around like its going out of style (though it obviously isn't ).
As for the fusion suit being a sub optimal option at hunting Riptides... Wut? Maybe where you're standing 53 points for two S8 AP1 shots that deepstrike on a T4 Sv3+ two wound JSJ platform is "not in any form anti-MC", but where I'm standing that's a crazy good deal for monster hunting.
I'd like to take a step back and point out that Annihilation Barges easily are among the top 10 heavy support units in the game already, trying to prove that a Riptide isn't undercosted by comparing it to another stellar unit is a bit counterproductive.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd like to take a step back and point out that Annihilation Barges easily are among the top 10 heavy support units in the game already, trying to prove that a Riptide isn't undercosted by comparing it to another stellar unit is a bit counterproductive.
The fact they're failing is also quite telling- the main reason I went for the Barge was the fact they had previously stated it was undercosted, so even proving the Riptide is "merely" about as effective per point would've sufficed.
Math, however, has something else in mind it seems, as it looks to be dead set on proving the Riptide to be even more point efficient than the Barge, even when compared in its sub-optimal "naked" build...
You still haven't posted the AV and AA values which are where the Annihilation barges shine. And don't forget to factor in how few Riptides actually have VTs. Barges are also immune to S6 and below firepower. Snap Shots really doesn't affect them, neither does the enemy having Cover Saves.
And please, do use the IA Riptide for AV and AA. It's a poor platform for both.
The Annihilation barge is undercosted because it threatens every target in the game short of AV 14 well. It is also immune to S6 and below. And three of them cost 5 Pts more than a dedicated AA Riptide and are vastly superior at that task. HBC VT Stim ECPA Riptide runs 265. Two Barges are better vs nearly ever target in the game, you've proved this. And they are extremely Durable, more so vs S7 and below. S6-7 Spam is the best and most popular AT firepower in the game. Serpents, Missilesides, Psybacks, Autocannons, Psycannons, Assault Cannons, etc. the Meta needs to prepare to Demech mid AV targets, the Barge is better at it.
And how many armies are putting S10 AP1 ranged attacks on the table? How many are putting multiple shots down range? None, no competitive list is doing that as there is no cost effective method of doing it. Lists of armies are putting S6-7 down range. S10 AP2 Distort is far more common and vastly more dangerous for a Riptide.
These are the reasons the Annihilation barge is undercosted. If anything, we've proved the Riptide is more appropriately costed then Annihilation barges.
To all those Strawman argues, I've already stated the IA upgrade is undercosted, and even that underperforms compared to Annihilation barges vs most targets in the game. All we've proven is that the Riptide is more appropriately costed than Annihilation Barges. Now, the Riptide may be slightly undercosted or over durable with the IA and possibly stock, but not my the margins proposed here.
The HBC is appropriately costed and solid vs most target, capable of handling AA but is prone to self destruction. Benefits from support.
The IA Riptide is a phenomenal anti Heavy Infantry and Infantry killer, especially with support. It's slightly undercosted due to it's lack of reliance on its Nova Reactor resulting in increased durability .
The Annihilation Barge is great against all targets including AAA duty requiring no support. It's also immune or highly resistant to more types of firepower. It is definitely undercosted.
All we have managed to show is that the HBC Riptide is less capable than an equal amount of Annihilation Barges and is more appropriately costed.
You are a smart guy, but are hiding the reality of the situation behind cherry picked arguments supported by walls of math.
Be careful of statistics, it's easy to be mislead...
Except you neglected the fact NOVA fails 1/3 of the time for the ripple fire effects as well as the overcharge (otherwise your mention of using the overcarch when its 50% better then ripple makes no sense, but suffer the same side effects of 2/3 to fail to work and wound the tide) and you assume the barge will jinx non-stop does the HBCtide manage to catch up in firepower, something we both know it just not correct. the need to jink only comes up when a genuine threat comes up.
And the defensive value presented here is against the most single-minded anti-tank unit in the entire game, you literally CANT find a unit in the game more aimed at the sole purpose of killing tanks.
If you want a real comparison of defense, you need to make a table like you made for the "glances per shot on barge" except "wounds per shot on riptide", and remember that while the tide has 5 wounds to the barge's 3, it has double the cost-so anything in similar efficiency is in effect better at hurting tides then it is against barges. and I'd bet all the more common S7-8 guns will fall under this category, especially AP1-2 guns.
(no, fusion won't. because they are MELTA. bonus rules changes things, these really are anti-tank centered. and the fusion suits really ARE useless at MC hunters, even plasma suits who are practically unused at superior due to the fact against T6 a S6AP2 double tap beats a single S8AP1 shot. and many units put he plasma suits to shame there, for example pretty much anything viable that has grav or poison.)
PrinceRaven wrote:Why is everyone calculating wounds taken by the Riptide as if Tau players use their Nova reactor every single turn? In my experience they only use it for 4 turns maximum, factor in Feel No Pain and the Riptide is doing a lot less damage to itself than you think it is.
PrinceRaven wrote:Why is everyone calculating wounds taken by the Riptide as if Tau players use their Nova reactor every single turn? In my experience they only use it for 4 turns maximum, factor in Feel No Pain and the Riptide is doing a lot less damage to itself than you think it is.
Galorian, you've proved no such thing.
You still haven't posted the AV and AA values which are where the Annihilation barges shine. And don't forget to factor in how few Riptides actually have VTs. Barges are also immune to S6 and below firepower. Snap Shots really doesn't affect them, neither does the enemy having Cover Saves.
And please, do use the IA Riptide for AV and AA. It's a poor platform for both.
The Annihilation barge is undercosted because it threatens every target in the game short of AV 14 well. It is also immune to S6 and below. And three of them cost 5 Pts more than a dedicated AA Riptide and are vastly superior at that task. HBC VT Stim ECPA Riptide runs 265. Two Barges are better vs nearly ever target in the game, you've proved this. And they are extremely Durable, more so vs S7 and below. S6-7 Spam is the best and most popular AT firepower in the game. Serpents, Missilesides, Psybacks, Autocannons, Psycannons, Assault Cannons, etc. the Meta needs to prepare to Demech mid AV targets, the Barge is better at it.
And how many armies are putting S10 AP1 ranged attacks on the table? How many are putting multiple shots down range? None, no competitive list is doing that as there is no cost effective method of doing it. Lists of armies are putting S6-7 down range. S10 AP2 Distort is far more common and vastly more dangerous for a Riptide.
These are the reasons the Annihilation barge is undercosted. If anything, we've proved the Riptide is more appropriately costed then Annihilation barges.
To all those Strawman argues, I've already stated the IA upgrade is undercosted, and even that underperforms compared to Annihilation barges vs most targets in the game. All we've proven is that the Riptide is more appropriately costed than Annihilation Barges. Now, the Riptide may be slightly undercosted or over durable with the IA and possibly stock, but not my the margins proposed here.
The HBC is appropriately costed and solid vs most target, capable of handling AA but is prone to self destruction. Benefits from support.
The IA Riptide is a phenomenal anti Heavy Infantry and Infantry killer, especially with support. It's slightly undercosted due to it's lack of reliance on its Nova Reactor resulting in increased durability .
The Annihilation Barge is great against all targets including AAA duty requiring no support. It's also immune or highly resistant to more types of firepower. It is definitely undercosted.
All we have managed to show is that the HBC Riptide is less capable than an equal amount of Annihilation Barges and is more appropriately costed.
You are a smart guy, but are hiding the reality of the situation behind cherry picked arguments supported by walls of math.
Be careful of statistics, it's easy to be mislead...
Despite having a massive dislike of the Riptide's rules I have to say I'm convinced by what you're saying here. Argued well, clearly and logically, have an exalt.
BoomWolf wrote: Except you neglected the fact NOVA fails 1/3 of the time for the ripple fire effects as well as the overcharge (otherwise your mention of using the overcarch when its 50% better then ripple makes no sense, but suffer the same side effects of 2/3 to fail to work and wound the tide) and you assume the barge will jinx non-stop does the HBCtide manage to catch up in firepower, something we both know it just not correct. the need to jink only comes up when a genuine threat comes up.
Are you suffering from selective amnesia? I stated explicitly that I factored in the 1/3 chance of failing a nova charge test into the firepower figures. Also, "need to jink only comes up" most game turns since if your opponent is halfway competent he'll have anti-tank weapons in the game and you have to declare if you jink when he declares he's shooting at you, not after you see if his shots are effective. Furthermore the need to actually move around the battlefield with that underwhelming 24" range kinda demands you snap fire both weapons half the time anyway, and the rest of the time you're going to be moving at combat speed and snap firing one of them.
BoomWolf wrote: And the defensive value presented here is against the most single-minded anti-tank unit in the entire game, you literally CANT find a unit in the game more aimed at the sole purpose of killing tanks.
If you want a real comparison of defense, you need to make a table like you made for the "glances per shot on barge" except "wounds per shot on riptide", and remember that while the tide has 5 wounds to the barge's 3, it has double the cost-so anything in similar efficiency is in effect better at hurting tides then it is against barges. and I'd bet all the more common S7-8 guns will fall under this category, especially AP1-2 guns.
(no, fusion won't. because they are MELTA. bonus rules changes things, these really are anti-tank centered. and the fusion suits really ARE useless at MC hunters, even plasma suits who are practically unused at superior due to the fact against T6 a S6AP2 double tap beats a single S8AP1 shot. and many units put he plasma suits to shame there, for example pretty much anything viable that has grav or poison.)
S8 AP1 Rapid Fire at 53pts is a good MC killer, particularly against a Sv2+ one like the Riptide.
If I find the time I'll run some more mathhammering tomorrow, but having already wasted WAAAAAAY more time on this than I originally planned on with a test this Wednesday I doubt I will.
My bad, I'm not THAT familiar with the Tau codex, should've double checked.
Going over some of it now it seems to me a single suit can take 3 of them for 15pts a pop though. Did I miss anything that would make that impossible?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Funny story- compare a Riptide and a Barge each taking 6 S6 Rending hits:
The Riptide will take an average 1 wound, the Barge (assuming it doesn't jinks, since it's S6 Rending, which shouldn't be all that scary for an AV13 vehicle) will lose an average 1 HP, out of which 1/3 is a glance and 2/3 is a pen.
2/3 to pen times (1/3 to explode + 1/6 to immobilize + 1/12 to destroy the TD) = 7/18 to take the Barge out of the game right there.
S7 without AP2 or better will only wound a Riptide 1/9 of the times while it takes off a HP 1/6 of the times.
So shooting at a Barge a non Jinking Barge would score an average 8/9 glances to a Nova charge Riptide's average 1/3 to glance 2/3 to pen (which includes 7/18 to mission kill), and if the Barge did jink or move at cruising its average drops to 11/18. Sure, the Riptide costs double, but I'd say an average 1hp with a 38.9% mission kill rate beats a 16/9 hp average with a 0% mission kill rate.
The fact you can only shoot two guns with the suit is an issue with having 3 fusion blasters.
On other note-rending, equal value against MCs and tanks, its not specialized one way or another. S7 without AP2 is not the most effective weapon to aim at tides due to armor, you might as well shoot HB on a terminator. (same chance per shot to get anything done) you need a way PAST the armor to really hammer them. 1/3 saved is way worse then 5/6 saved.
As for the riptide's own survival, here is a funny fact:
We are working under the assumption of NOVA every turn so he will pump out decent firepower, so the riptide has 3 effective wounds, not 5. it will deal 2 average to himself to NOVA alone.
And considering we use overcharge fire every time (we need it to get the barge right? the SMS is useless here. the SMS is far weaker against MOST targets) then its 1.33 EXTRA self wounds per game. (12 gets hot shots, 1/36 chance to get a 1 hit 1 save, meaning every 3 turns of working overcharge its a self-wound, you manage to overcharge 2/3 times so its a self wound every 4.5 turns for gets hot, with 6 average game turns.)
So the nakedtide, when overcharging every single turn, has in effect just 1.66 wounds.
Still seems unkilable? because he literally kills most of his own life by itself when pumping out his full potential. 3.33 wounds per game on average when non-stop overcharge is needed, with the HBC its more often then not.
That 16/9 hp you calculated is 1.777 wounds, slightly more then enough to kill the riptide *in effect* on average, as if he keeps shooting to maximum capacity, he will kill himself already at this point. either you took a major hit to your main gun (as we called "mission kill") or kill yourself.
If you had two rounds of shooting because you survived, or lets say a round and a half, (to count for the chance to kill the shooter) so we'll use 24/9 as the figure, 2.666 wounds on average, at this point-more then half the riptide is gone, he has 2.33 wounds left, 1 less then the self-inflicted average per game. about the same as the self-inflicted by turn 4.
If you got a full two-turn shooting rather then 1.5 then on average he will take 3.555 wounds (32/9) at the time, and that means the nova alone kills him, or the "gets hot" alone. in fact by turn 2-3 he already took the last 1.44444 wounds of himself. (turn 2 average self-inflicted 1.111, turn 3 is 1.666)
HBC kills the riptide, he is NOT hard to kill when wielding one. not even something special. T6 SV2+5++ is a though nut, but just 1.66 wounds average is enough damage to make the HBC either tone down his attack, or kill itsself. to be practical, once you landed 2 wounds on your own-its "effectively" down.
That's why the HBC is fair. not because its full potential is not doing enough damage or that he can't tank shots when he chooses to, but because if you want to do meaningful damage, you have to keep on NOVAing, so you quickly eat your own health.
3.333 wounds per game, its two-thirds of the riptide's own health there. just in pure self-damage.
Galorian wrote: Want me to run the numbers on how many fusion suits it would take to take out the last two wounds of a Riptide who hurt itself 3 times over the course of a game?
You know what? Lets.
You don't care about melta range anymore so you can drop the suit with a greater error margin- say 6" to make sure all scatter results save mishaps would keep you in range and most would still be in RF range. That's still 1/3 chance of a direct hit and a 1/12 chance of scattering 3" or less. If you scatter 4-5" you still won't ever mishap but there's a small chance you'll scatter directly away out of RF range- 4-5 on a 2d6 is a 7/36 chance, and let's say 1/6 of these would be out of RF. 6-12" inches of scatter, a 26/36 chance, is the "danger zone"- lets say 1/3 of these would mishap and of the remainder only half would be in RF range.
Grand total: 16% chance of mishap, 65.7% chance of rapid fire and 18.3% chance of single shot.
1/2 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/3 to pass invul- Totals in 41.6% chance of getting a wound in. You need to do that twice though, so that's actually 17.3% for a pair of suits to take the last two wounds off (and if they arrive so late in the game the Riptide managed to take 3 wounds off of itself by that time then they've already failed by giving it free reign anyhow).
The chance of 5 suits to take out an unwounded Riptide? A hilarious 1.25%, while they'll nuke a Barge roughly 72.6% of the time.
You used awful math here. Don't ever use percentages when working with fixed amounts. Also your argument is apples to oranges when it compares riptides to ghost arks.
Now then: Who the feth cares what 5 fusion suits does? who fields 5 fusion suits? I run 3 plasma suits and 3 fusion suits in a farsight bomb, and my list is considered out there.
So, how about we look at a real life example of anti-monster shooting.
3 Plasma suits put out 12 S6AP2 shots. Their target is T6 with a 5++5+++. I have re-rolls to hit and wound. My Chance of hitting, wounding and getting through both saves is equal to 0.312. I have a mean of 3.75 wounds - I'll do from 2.14 to 5.352 wounds on average.
Riptides cost 225 points average with FNP. they take 13 ap1/2 wounds to bring down. Bring more AP1/2.
The only people who can really complain about riptides are Space Marines, Nids and Orks. Those three armies fail to pump out AP1/2 en masse.
SM have both plasma and grav as options though.
And grav on centurions is like "feth you very much" with what they pump out (80 points each, yes. but 5 BS4 shots that wound on 2 reroll and no armor each.)
Nids...harder time now with FMC meganerf. but they got psyker powers to disable/kill it.
Orks are getting a new codex like in two weeks, no point discussing them.
BoomWolf wrote:The fact you can only shoot two guns with the suit is an issue with having 3 fusion blasters.
On other note-rending, equal value against MCs and tanks, its not specialized one way or another. S7 without AP2 is not the most effective weapon to aim at tides due to armor, you might as well shoot HB on a terminator. (same chance per shot to get anything done) you need a way PAST the armor to really hammer them. 1/3 saved is way worse then 5/6 saved.
As for the riptide's own survival, here is a funny fact:
We are working under the assumption of NOVA every turn so he will pump out decent firepower, so the riptide has 3 effective wounds, not 5. it will deal 2 average to himself to NOVA alone.
And considering we use overcharge fire every time (we need it to get the barge right? the SMS is useless here. the SMS is far weaker against MOST targets) then its 1.33 EXTRA self wounds per game. (12 gets hot shots, 1/36 chance to get a 1 hit 1 save, meaning every 3 turns of working overcharge its a self-wound, you manage to overcharge 2/3 times so its a self wound every 4.5 turns for gets hot, with 6 average game turns.)
So the nakedtide, when overcharging every single turn, has in effect just 1.66 wounds.
Still seems unkilable? because he literally kills most of his own life by itself when pumping out his full potential. 3.33 wounds per game on average when non-stop overcharge is needed, with the HBC its more often then not.
That 16/9 hp you calculated is 1.777 wounds, slightly more then enough to kill the riptide *in effect* on average, as if he keeps shooting to maximum capacity, he will kill himself already at this point. either you took a major hit to your main gun (as we called "mission kill") or kill yourself.
If you had two rounds of shooting because you survived, or lets say a round and a half, (to count for the chance to kill the shooter) so we'll use 24/9 as the figure, 2.666 wounds on average, at this point-more then half the riptide is gone, he has 2.33 wounds left, 1 less then the self-inflicted average per game. about the same as the self-inflicted by turn 4.
If you got a full two-turn shooting rather then 1.5 then on average he will take 3.555 wounds (32/9) at the time, and that means the nova alone kills him, or the "gets hot" alone. in fact by turn 2-3 he already took the last 1.44444 wounds of himself. (turn 2 average self-inflicted 1.111, turn 3 is 1.666)
HBC kills the riptide, he is NOT hard to kill when wielding one. not even something special. T6 SV2+5++ is a though nut, but just 1.66 wounds average is enough damage to make the HBC either tone down his attack, or kill itsself. to be practical, once you landed 2 wounds on your own-its "effectively" down.
That's why the HBC is fair. not because its full potential is not doing enough damage or that he can't tank shots when he chooses to, but because if you want to do meaningful damage, you have to keep on NOVAing, so you quickly eat your own health.
3.333 wounds per game, its two-thirds of the riptide's own health there. just in pure self-damage.
16/9 is for two Barges to get equal cost in, and calculating the number of hull points they'd take off of AV13 (which I then compared to the Riptide's average at same), and for another thing 1.777 is far short of the 3 you'd need to get the Riptide to off itself in 6 turns of Nova usage anyway, making your argument doubly erroneous. As for the S6 Rending calc, I actually did take the chance to fail to rend into account (duh)- S6 Rending is objectively better at damaging AV13 than it is at wounding T6 Sv2+/5++, as on average it causes an equal number of wounds/HP while also having a 2/3 chance of penetrating if it took off a hull point compared to no equivalent extra damage potential against a MC.
The really funny part is the fact all this math assumes you're trying to blow up the Barge the moment you have it in range yet the all the calculations for the Riptide assume you'll give it 6 turns to kill itself with the Nova reactor and just try to shoot down the remaining wounds, which is a patently absurd comparison.
I've had my Barges blow up on me for first blood in the first shooting phase before they even got to move, sometimes by the very first shot of the game. Tell me, how likely do you reckon the Riptide is to die on turn 1? How many units in the game even have a not statistically insignificant potential to kill a Riptide in the first shooting phase? Hell, how many armies do you reckon have a decent shot at taking one down on turn 1?
Scipio Africanus wrote:You used awful math here. Don't ever use percentages when working with fixed amounts. Also your argument is apples to oranges when it compares riptides to ghost arks.
Now then: Who the feth cares what 5 fusion suits does? who fields 5 fusion suits? I run 3 plasma suits and 3 fusion suits in a farsight bomb, and my list is considered out there.
So, how about we look at a real life example of anti-monster shooting.
3 Plasma suits put out 12 S6AP2 shots. Their target is T6 with a 5++5+++. I have re-rolls to hit and wound. My Chance of hitting, wounding and getting through both saves is equal to 0.312. I have a mean of 3.75 wounds - I'll do from 2.14 to 5.352 wounds on average.
Riptides cost 225 points average with FNP. they take 13 ap1/2 wounds to bring down. Bring more AP1/2.
The only people who can really complain about riptides are Space Marines, Nids and Orks. Those three armies fail to pump out AP1/2 en masse.
I used percentages because I calculated the statistical probability of getting the result- rolling to scatter gives you a 1/3 chance of hitting and a 2/3 chance of scattering 2d6. A roll of 2d6 results in 36 possible combinations, counting how many of them achieve a desired result and dividing by 36 gives you the probability of getting said result on a roll of 2d6, which you then multiply by the probability of having to roll the 2d6 in the first place to get the overall probability of getting said result.
Moreover, I used "X fusion suits" to demonstrate how you get diminishing returns on trying to score a mission killing hit by adding more suits, as Boomwolf didn't seem to realize how badly this can skew the apparent results. Afterwards as an aside I calculated their odds of managing to get all 5 wounds on a Riptide in a single shooting phase, though apparently I've been operating under some wrong assumptions as to the firepower of the suits (incidentally this also changes their odds of curbstomping the Barge).
Also, 3 Plasma suits put out 12 S7 AP2 shots per turn? HOLY CRAP. Somehow this doesn't make me any more sympathetic to the "plight" of the Tau codex in its struggles to prove it's not stuffed full of undepriced options...
At BS4 S8 AP1/2 you'd need and average of 20.25 shots fired to take down 5 T6 Sv2+/5++/5+++ wounds. My codex' most efficient source of such are Destructeks, who are single shot and cost 35pts a pop (not factoring in various taxes). To have a marginally above average chance of killing such a Riptide with a single shooting phase I'd need 21 of them, which totals at a hilarious 735pts (not counting the 4 Overlords and 4 minimal squads of warriors I'd need to field that many in a dual CAD battleforged list, adding another 620pts, and I'm ignoring the fact I won't be able to fit the 21st one into 4 courts). Incidentally, if we split those 21 shots into 7 groupings of 3 and turned each such on a jinking Barge (say my opponent really loves spamming them, for ease of calculation, as I've already done the math for 3 shots in a row), each such grouping would have a 10.3% chance of mission killing a Barge, meaning they'd have a 53.3% chance of mission killing at least 1 and a 15.6% chance of mission killing at least 2 (of course if all they faced was 2-3 Barges their odds of mission killing or outright killing all of them would be much higher due to stacking HP damage which I did not take into account and the stacking probabilities of dropping the QS or destroying the underslung cannon to improve the odds of taking out the TD with subsequent shots, but calculating all that for groupings of 7-11 shots would be a monumental pain in the ass for which I don't have the time or will at the moment).
I could go for Deathmarks, another prominent MC hunting option in my codex. A D&D squad of 10 DM and 2 Despairteks, one with a Veil, would cost me 280pts. They'd mark the Riptide so all to-wound rolls are on a 2+, meaning the auto hitting templates would score an average 0.74 wounds in total, and the DMs would pile on another 1.98 wounds, for a total of 2.72 wounds on average. Two of these would have a better than even chance of killing a Riptide (assuming of course they deepstruk without error wholly within rapid fire range with both templates in range) for a "mere" 560pts.
I've already done the math of the Barge, which comes out as 0.76 wounds per turn at full BS and 0.49 wounds per turn when snapfiring. That was for a naked Riptide however and you seem to like the FNP one better, so the numbers would be, in fact, 0.51 and 0.33 respectively. To have a better than even chance of killing said Riptide within a single phase would take 10 of them at full BS, 900pts, and 16 if snapfiring, or 1,440pts.
I guess that means you can probably add Necrons to the list of armies that have no effective ranged option for killing a Riptide.
What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Galorian wrote: What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Space marines can grab grav-weapons and those scare me. Dark Eldar maybe through pure bloody minded "I don't care about your toughness" weight of poisoned shots (maybe not an effective option, but a workable option). That's the only two I am personally familiar enough with to weigh in on.
Skimmers get to Jink even if they haven't moved and even when Immobilized. Barges got that boost. Your anecdotal evidence is from 6th Ed when they were actually much more vulnerable and still undercosted then. They've gotten better. Plus, ancedotal evidence isn't great. I've lost Riptides to two Wave Serpents shooting in one turn. I've lost them to Distort in the first shot. Point being?
Necrons have S7 Tesla Spam, it kills Riptides just fine. S6 Tesla is as effective at killing a Riptide as Bolters are at killing Terminators. Plus, Necrons have Wraiths and CCB Lords, they eat Riptides for Breakfast and are easily fast enough to catch them.
Your math for the Annihilation Barge vs Riptide was off. 5.33 average S7 Tesla hits and 2 Average S6 Tesla Hits is .76 Wounds/Turn not including arcing damage on other units. It takes 2 Annihilation Barges 3.33 Turns to Kill a Riptide, assuming the Riptide chooses not to Nova at all. The Riptides Return fire is only 1HP/Turn with Quantum Shielding assuming a successful Nova every time. Damage gets better on following turns if QS was stripped. Either way, Annihilation Barges are good at killing Riptides just like every other target short of AV14.... and it isn't like the Necron won't have more TLTesla Destructions hitting the field with Nightscythes. And they will be cheap flyers... that don't kill their troops and can drop them off anywhere on the board.
I'm sorry if Necrons aren't getting any sympathy here, Tau took a major hit with the transition to 7th, especially the Riptide, and will likely drop from 2nd most dominating army to high middle of the pack while Necrons got a boost and were already 4th for tournament strength with one of the best Tournament builds out there. Only the O'vesaStar kept the Tau doing well at high levels, whereas Wraithwing TeslaCrons was a dominating army and got only better, and now has the CCB Lord.
I see Necrons dominating tournaments and commanding 2nd spot to Eldar, especially in any Dual CAD setup, because of 6xAnnihilation Barges.
Edar, SM, and Necron all have readily accessible ways of killing Riptides at range. Grav and Distort are the clear winners, though Serpents put enough wounds on them per turn to not matter either, .74 Wounds/Turn on average for Serpents without underslung Shurikens. DE Poison and Lance spam is terrifying. Tau can do it, though its an ugly slap fest unless Kroot Snipers are in play. Daemons don't do it with Range, they do it in CC. Tyranids do it with poisoned Gribblies so not at range.
Galorian wrote: What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Space marines can grab grav-weapons and those scare me. Dark Eldar maybe through pure bloody minded "I don't care about your toughness" weight of poisoned shots (maybe not an effective option, but a workable option). That's the only two I am personally familiar enough with to weigh in on.
Grav guns are indeed rather awesome at it (and quite a bit else besides), so that's one. Tau have those plasma spamming crisis teams, so that's two. Eldar have all that pseudo-rending and their Distort weapons, so that's likely three. GK have that teleporting Dreadknight schtick which I'd we willing to accept as a decent substitute for actual ranged kill capabilities (though it comes at a hefty price for a 1 trick pony), so that's four.
Don't really know DE well enough to tell how spammable their poison options are and/or whether or not they have any with AP2, but I'm pretty sure Dark Lances aren't more cost effective than destructeks for the task so they're likely out.
Galorian wrote: What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Space marines can grab grav-weapons and those scare me.
Other than Gravcent-stars, how are they scary? They've got an 18" range and are really only effective on Relentless models, which means bikes, which in turn are now much worse than in 6th due to the changes to Jink.
Galorian wrote: What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Space marines can grab grav-weapons and those scare me.
Other than Gravcent-stars, how are they scary? They've got an 18" range and are really only effective on Relentless models, which means bikes, which in turn are now much worse than in 6th due to the changes to Jink.
Mostly fear of the unknown since my regular SM opponent doesn't use them. I haven't gotten to see first hand how effective they are.
The usual SM strategy I've seen to deal with my Riptide is to jam a land raider full of death company down my throat and tie it up in cc for the rest of the game. He has finally learned that bringing a wall of vindicators and land raiders is what my army can't handle... I might actually have to start deep striking melta suits, but then I lose interceptor against his accursed dreadnoughts in pods!
Galorian wrote: What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Space marines can grab grav-weapons and those scare me.
Other than Gravcent-stars, how are they scary? They've got an 18" range and are really only effective on Relentless models, which means bikes, which in turn are now much worse than in 6th due to the changes to Jink.
Wait why do we get to include all the units of every other army but we can't include SM's Gravstars? That's like SM's thing right now, and isn't going to be pointed at anything except Riptides all game vs Tau
That's like saying "other than Riptides, how is this conversation relevant to anything at all"
Because it wouldn't be, if you just decide to randomly discount choice units
Zagman wrote: Skimmers get to Jink even if they haven't moved and even when Immobilized. Barges got that boost. Your anecdotal evidence is from 6th Ed when they were actually much more vulnerable and still undercosted then. They've gotten better. Plus, ancedotal evidence isn't great. I've lost Riptides to two Wave Serpents shooting in one turn. I've lost them to Distort in the first shot. Point being?
Necrons have S7 Tesla Spam, it kills Riptides just fine. S6 Tesla is as effective at killing a Riptide as Bolters are at killing Terminators. Plus, Necrons have Wraiths and CCB Lords, they eat Riptides for Breakfast and are easily fast enough to catch them.
Your math for the Annihilation Barge vs Riptide was off. 5.33 average S7 Tesla hits and 2 Average S6 Tesla Hits is .76 Wounds/Turn not including arcing damage on other units. It takes 2 Annihilation Barges 3.33 Turns to Kill a Riptide, assuming the Riptide chooses not to Nova at all. The Riptides Return fire is only 1HP/Turn with Quantum Shielding assuming a successful Nova every time. Damage gets better on following turns if QS was stripped. Either way, Annihilation Barges are good at killing Riptides just like every other target short of AV14.... and it isn't like the Necron won't have more TLTesla Destructions hitting the field with Nightscythes. And they will be cheap flyers... that don't kill their troops and can drop them off anywhere on the board.
I'm sorry if Necrons aren't getting any sympathy here, Tau took a major hit with the transition to 7th, especially the Riptide, and will likely drop from 2nd most dominating army to high middle of the pack while Necrons got a boost and were already 4th for tournament strength with one of the best Tournament builds out there. Only the O'vesaStar kept the Tau doing well at high levels, whereas Wraithwing TeslaCrons was a dominating army and got only better, and now has the CCB Lord.
I see Necrons dominating tournaments and commanding 2nd spot to Eldar, especially in any Dual CAD setup, because of 6xAnnihilation Barges.
Edar, SM, and Necron all have readily accessible ways of killing Riptides at range. Grav and Distort are the clear winners, though Serpents put enough wounds on them per turn to not matter either, .74 Wounds/Turn on average for Serpents without underslung Shurikens. DE Poison and Lance spam is terrifying. Tau can do it, though its an ugly slap fest unless Kroot Snipers are in play. Daemons don't do it with Range, they do it in CC. Tyranids do it with poisoned Gribblies so not at range.
My math wasn't off, you just didn't remember the start of the paragraph by the time you got to its end.
As for killing a Riptide in CC... How are jump infantry "easily fast enough to catch them"? I mean, I get CCBs- they turbo boost 18" and are all manner of broken at the moment to the point where after trying mine out at an apocalypse game a couple of weeks back I came to the conclusion it demands house ruling to not break the game (and there was a Warhound Titan on the other side of the table, so having that big of an effect on the game is no mean feat), but jump infantry move 12" and then run an extra d6", for an average of 15.5" per turn. The Riptide moves 6"+2d6" per turn for an average of 13", meaning that if it wants to get away they'd be closing on a 36" ranged model at a rate of 2.5" per turn and are one hell of a bullet magnet (durable, yes, but far from insurmountably so).
If they somehow survive long enough and manage to catch up to the Riptide by turn 4-5 (there's a limit to how far it can run away on a 48"x72" table so they might manage to corner it by then) the damage is mostly already done, and you've thrown easily twice the Riptide's point value in a wraithstar that spent the whole game chasing it around.
Another point you seem to be missing repeatedly, despite practically stating it yourself right now, is the fact the Annihilation Barge is undercosted. You're desperately struggling to prove the basic unsupported Riptide isn't better value per point than the Annihilation Barge, and it seems you don't realize that even if you manage to successfully argue that they've got a rough parity in value per point that would still mean the Riptide is undercosted.
Jet and Jump are effectively the same speed, the difference is Jet have a chance to either move less or move more in total throughout a turn. And the amount of table they have before running out of running room runs out way sooner than the table corners because of other models in the way, terrain the model cannot be placed on he didnt fully clear, or running into more of your guys.
Wraiths can EASILY catch a riptide because they move 12" and ignore terrain. Unless you play on a board with next to no LOS block, which would answer why you are so adamant about the riptide being OP before any support, wraiths shouldnt be getting shot at more than a few pot shots here and there before they make their strike. My friend back in South Korea when i was stationed there used a 5man Wraithstar with a lord or whatever that specific IC was called that works great with them always managed to keep them well hidden until they strike something by turn3 at the latest at 95% or better strength. Even if it wasnt my riptide, it was always something very important he managed to snag and those things are insanely resilient.
Zagman wrote: Skimmers get to Jink even if they haven't moved and even when Immobilized. Barges got that boost. Your anecdotal evidence is from 6th Ed when they were actually much more vulnerable and still undercosted then. They've gotten better. Plus, ancedotal evidence isn't great. I've lost Riptides to two Wave Serpents shooting in one turn. I've lost them to Distort in the first shot. Point being?
Necrons have S7 Tesla Spam, it kills Riptides just fine. S6 Tesla is as effective at killing a Riptide as Bolters are at killing Terminators. Plus, Necrons have Wraiths and CCB Lords, they eat Riptides for Breakfast and are easily fast enough to catch them.
Your math for the Annihilation Barge vs Riptide was off. 5.33 average S7 Tesla hits and 2 Average S6 Tesla Hits is .76 Wounds/Turn not including arcing damage on other units. It takes 2 Annihilation Barges 3.33 Turns to Kill a Riptide, assuming the Riptide chooses not to Nova at all. The Riptides Return fire is only 1HP/Turn with Quantum Shielding assuming a successful Nova every time. Damage gets better on following turns if QS was stripped. Either way, Annihilation Barges are good at killing Riptides just like every other target short of AV14.... and it isn't like the Necron won't have more TLTesla Destructions hitting the field with Nightscythes. And they will be cheap flyers... that don't kill their troops and can drop them off anywhere on the board.
I'm sorry if Necrons aren't getting any sympathy here, Tau took a major hit with the transition to 7th, especially the Riptide, and will likely drop from 2nd most dominating army to high middle of the pack while Necrons got a boost and were already 4th for tournament strength with one of the best Tournament builds out there. Only the O'vesaStar kept the Tau doing well at high levels, whereas Wraithwing TeslaCrons was a dominating army and got only better, and now has the CCB Lord.
I see Necrons dominating tournaments and commanding 2nd spot to Eldar, especially in any Dual CAD setup, because of 6xAnnihilation Barges.
Edar, SM, and Necron all have readily accessible ways of killing Riptides at range. Grav and Distort are the clear winners, though Serpents put enough wounds on them per turn to not matter either, .74 Wounds/Turn on average for Serpents without underslung Shurikens. DE Poison and Lance spam is terrifying. Tau can do it, though its an ugly slap fest unless Kroot Snipers are in play. Daemons don't do it with Range, they do it in CC. Tyranids do it with poisoned Gribblies so not at range.
My math wasn't off, you just didn't remember the start of the paragraph by the time you got to its end.
As for killing a Riptide in CC... How are jump infantry "easily fast enough to catch them"? I mean, I get CCBs- they turbo boost 18" and are all manner of broken at the moment to the point where after trying mine out at an apocalypse game a couple of weeks back I came to the conclusion it demands house ruling to not break the game (and there was a Warhound Titan on the other side of the table, so having that big of an effect on the game is no mean feat), but jump infantry move 12" and then run an extra d6", for an average of 15.5" per turn. The Riptide moves 6"+2d6" per turn for an average of 13", meaning that if it wants to get away they'd be closing on a 36" ranged model at a rate of 2.5" per turn and are one hell of a bullet magnet (durable, yes, but far from insurmountably so).
If they somehow survive long enough and manage to catch up to the Riptide by turn 4-5 (there's a limit to how far it can run away on a 48"x72" table so they might manage to corner it by then) the damage is mostly already done, and you've thrown easily twice the Riptide's point value in a wraithstar that spent the whole game chasing it around.
Another point you seem to be missing repeatedly, despite practically stating it yourself right now, is the fact the Annihilation Barge is undercosted. You're desperately struggling to prove the basic unsupported Riptide isn't better value per point than the Annihilation Barge, and it seems you don't realize that even if you manage to successfully argue that they've got a rough parity in value per point that would still mean the Riptide is undercosted.
I apologize, I glanced back at the FNP values and was mistaken. .76 Wounds/Turn is correct. 1.52Wound/Turn for an equal value, assuming unupgraded Riptide.
Also, Tau Plasma is S6, not S7. Your lack of knowledge of Tau Weaponry shows that you need to study their codex a bit more carfully. You have been incorrect on two staple weapons, the Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster.
2.5"/turn assumes that the Riptides get to move directly backwards ie an endless table. That is definitely not the case. Most Riptides get Caught T2/3, that is a fact and is difficult to mitigate. Keeping the Riptides away until T4-5 is virtually impossible. It also doesn't change that the rest of the Tau army isn't nearly as mobile and with assault and consolidation they close that difference quickly. Barge Lords do it T2 or they die generally.
I'm not desperately trying to prove the Riptide is on par with the Annihilation Barge, the Annihilation Barge is point for point better in 7th edition. You've been helpful enough to demonstrate this. They may have been much closer in 6th, but not in 7th. You are desperately trying to prove that the Riptide is better than the Annihilation Barge and failing. Your arguments are riddled with 6th Ed thinking and use favorable assumptions whenever possible.
The Annihilation Barge is agreed to be under costed, the Riptide has been shown to be a worse value, therefore the Riptide is less undercosted, ie more appropriately costed, than the Annihilation Barge.
And you have yet to post any value about eney AV or both's use as AA. The Annihilation Barge loses effectively nothing while the Riptide has to spend more points for that role and is demonstrably less effective point for point at it anyway. Go ahead and show they have similar capabilities in some ways, but you cannot simply hand wave away the fact that the Annihilatin Barge is flat out superior against one form of target Flyers, and more efficient against Vehicles as a whole without a single extra point spent. And to do an accurate assessment, we then have to factor in the lowed point efficiency against all other targets.
Do not cherry pick your data, you have to equally weigh all aspects of the issue.
The Riptide is more appropriately costed than the Annihilation Barge in 7th Ed.
Galorian wrote: What armies do you reckon DO have effective ranged option for Riptide hunting?
Space marines can grab grav-weapons and those scare me.
Other than Gravcent-stars, how are they scary? They've got an 18" range and are really only effective on Relentless models, which means bikes, which in turn are now much worse than in 6th due to the changes to Jink.
Wait why do we get to include all the units of every other army but we can't include SM's Gravstars? That's like SM's thing right now, and isn't going to be pointed at anything except Riptides all game vs Tau
That's like saying "other than Riptides, how is this conversation relevant to anything at all"
Because it wouldn't be, if you just decide to randomly discount choice units
Because a Grav-star is easily 500+ points, not as effective with the new Psychic rules, and more or less requires you to build your army around supporting it. If every Space Marine player has to play a Grav-star list to handle Riptides, that should probably tell you something about the power level of the Riptide.
1-tau plasma is not S7, its S6 (though it does not get hot,), and with 53 points a suit, its still 26 points per BS3 plasma rifle, not less then anyone else packing them pays, in fact everyone else pays less per plasma gunner-even at higher BS, the only thing special here is the choice to spam them rather then have them as part of bigger teams, so you practically pay more for the ability to focus.
And by "pay more" I mean that the price of a single plasma gun for IoM/chaos is 10 points, for tau its 15.
2-riptide deals, as stated (and ignored) not 2 wounds to itself, but 3.3 wounds to itself over 6 turns-2 from nova, and another 1.3 more from the HBC itself, unless he stops using overcharged HBC-and that falls to the same "crippled" line you did with barges, so I went with it.
That means 1.7 hp in a single turn IS crippling, as from that point on, you either tone down your NOVA, where most of the HBC's power come from, or accept that you will kill yourself.
and as you yourself shown, more often then not there will be another turn of just as much firepower, and at least 50% as much firepower.
3-I did not even assume I am trying to blow up the barge, I accepted the fact that 1 turn, more often then not, will not be enough, by YOUR calculations (1HP average, 38.9% to cripple, though I disagree the cripple is that high, I went with it.) and the fact you got two barges for the price, means you get at least one of them to fire twice, heck I used the result for "3 rounds" of a barge shooting, once for the first, twice for the second-so its even IF the cripple went well. that led to 2.666 wounds-already shown to be far more then the riptides "true wounds" on full efficiency, as on full efficiency he has a mere 1.66 wounds. if both barges survived, again it means the riptide take 3.55 wounds, and will kill itself even without the HBC and just ripple fire by the time the game ends, or abort NOVA at all, and allow himself to fall into the abyss lacking firepower against pretty much every target, and outright useless against many.
Crippled, just like the after-pen result on the barge might be.
4-as for DE, pretty much every single gun they field (including basic fire) is either poison, or S8AP2 lance shots. standard issue troop unit of kabalite warriors can bring out 9 rapid-fire poison guns and a assault4/heavy6 poison gun riding in a fast open topped skimmer that carries wither a S8AP2 lance gun or S5AP2 triple-shot gun. that's 160 points troop squad. they do really well when it comes to killing anything and everything.
5-as for other armies, inqusition can spam the cheapest plasma troopers out there (14 point plasma trooper. no real armor though), orks are getting updated, BA and SW are badly behind in codices and and mostly SM-1 right now, IG got monster-hunter shells and tons of guns in general, anyone else needs to be discussed?
SHUPPET-such fallacies I can't even believe you are serious. "3 riptides every tau player fields"? I don't know a single local tau that even once fielded more then two, and when tau players DO spam riptides, its IA riptides-for a good reason.
The whole discussion here is HBC riptides, as the point is that HBC riptides are fair enough, and the IA upgrade is the game beaker.
It's silly to just discount units though and adds nothing to the argument either way
Yes, it does. If the Riptide is enough of a threat that the only solution to it in Codex: Space Marines is Gravturions then something's obviously not right.
And just as obvious is the fact that something's not right with the Riptide to begin with, Centurions or not. Discounting actual reasons to the other side of your argument actually does more to hurt your own point of view by showing extreme bias.
Grav Centurions with or without Tigger are good against Riptides. You can't just be like "yeah, but what ELSE have they got!". No. That's what they have. They can use this weapon so why would they not? SM who are not allowed to bring any Grav is just a big competitive handicap in general. Comparing it to a competitive Tau list is silly, unless you make the Tau non-competitive by taking out the Riptides, and then you have my original point, which is why the hell are you taking out units to begin with, Because it adds nothing at all to a discussion and only hurts your argument.
Let the Riptide be OP. Don't justify it's supporters by being ridiculously biased against it to the point of discounting logical points. The question was asked which armies do have a ranged counter to Riptide, and a legit answer was given.
Gravstar might be expensive but its still very common
It's silly to just discount units though and adds nothing to the argument either way
I don't care if its +500 pts, so is the 3 Riptides every Tau player fields
3 riptides? there are 10 people at my FLGS that play regularly and a further 8-10 more that occiationally show up. Among us are 5 tau players, not a single one of us brings more than 1-2 riptides even in large games. Its not as common of a tactic as you think, not every tau player is a cheesemongering dick lol. Actually now that i think about it only 2 of us even have riptides or have a desire to get one, myself being one of them.
Even among other gaming stores or the local tournaments i havent even heard of a tau spamming riptides anymore except for the random "that guy" that gets banned for other reasons, not his army list.
EDIT: Also space marine plasma bikers work just as well, and thats something most if not all marines have access to. Dark Angels player brings a squad of them purely because of my riptide and he has one hell of a track record for catching it with 8+ BS4 TL plasma shots, whether he outflanks or not.
Gravstar might be expensive but its still very common
It's silly to just discount units though and adds nothing to the argument either way
I don't care if its +500 pts, so is the 3 Riptides every Tau player fields
3 riptides? there are 10 people at my FLGS that play regularly and a further 8-10 more that occiationally show up. Among us are 5 tau players, not a single one of us brings more than 1-2 riptides even in large games. Its not as common of a tactic as you think, not every tau player is a cheesemongering dick lol. Actually now that i think about it only 2 of us even have riptides or have a desire to get one, myself being one of them.
Even among other gaming stores or the local tournaments i havent even heard of a tau spamming riptides anymore except for the random "that guy" that gets banned for other reasons, not his army list.
It's absolutely irrelevant if they only bring 2 riptides to be less cheesy (great job there!) because we are talking about the competitive capabilities of an army at it's highest setting, not one restricted by courtesy. When I said every player, I wasn't referring to the casual ones, or players looking for a SERIOUS CHALLENGE by only bringing 2 Riptides. Forgive me for not specifying to begin with.
Likewise i should have stated we usually play 2000-2500pts, 1-2 riptides drastically lose their bite at that level since theres more than 1 answer to them.
Yeah, fielding 2 at a low point is still cheese. Tau in general are crazy at low points, which is why i decline playing below 1500 since i feel tau have too big of an advantage below that, whether i use riptides or not.
If they are or not is irrelevant thats just my personal view, plus i like bigger games anyway lol
I would say they are slightly under costed. Maybe 20-30 points or so.
However they have nothing on wraith knights, who I have infinitely more difficulty with.
Riptides are good, but to be great they need support. Bufmanders and psychic powers are now out. Markerlights are the only things left.
Wraithknights on the other hand are a handful all on their own.
The riptide does have a few weaknesses too:
Heavy Armour - AV 13-14 targets are now quite a problem for riptides, who no longer have tank hunter.
Close Combat- They are just as slow as ever and have a low number of attacks. Sweeping them is quite easier if you can force them to run. Smash nerf means that they won't be punching out Landraiders left right and centre.
Leadership - If they take drones and then lose them, then they can run off the board. However there are lots of other things that can take advantage o their LD. Terrify for example can make a backline Riptide run right off without even taking a wound.
The wraith knight on the other hand has far less weaknesses.
Unbound lists aren't valid for talking about whether a unit (or spamming it) is valid or not as Unbound does not have any sort of balance you could relate to.
Also I'm going to weigh in on my personal opinion for this topic. There are two things about the riptide that make it too good for the points in my opinion. Those two things are the 2+ save and the ion accelerator upgrade.
Make the ion accelerator cost more than 5 points, like 20 or something, and give the riptide a 3+ save. It gets a lot less amazing.
With a 3+ save its practically worthless.
As proven, an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to himself per game as it is, on a 3+ it will increase to 4.66 wounds to itself.
So bringing an absurd list to counter an absurd list isnt a viable thing? That makes no sense, riptides arent the only thing that if you unbound list spam them at that point level you cannot beat without doing a similar absurd spamming list.
If your logic on dealing with an Overpowered units is bring other over powered units, you're basically saying the game is "Win with broken, play to break" The fact people are saying 3+ on a MC that can easily buy FNP and come stock T6 for the immunity to x2 toughness splats would make it useless is incredible... Incredibly slowed.
I don't see Wraithknights having issues with their 3+ saves. Massed fire tends to make them go away. A 3+ on a MC is perfectly suited to the fact the thing has multiple wounds, high mobility and an absurd amount of firepower. People will argue "Oh but the Wraithknight has T8 waaaaaah!" but guess what, it's not as dangerous as a MC who can erase an entire 2+ unit off the board. Not to mention the Wraithknight is perfectly priced for it's toughness and strengths. 12" Guns aren't as scary as 36" and it's 36" guns aren't all that terrifying when compared to the Riptides.
Vineheart01 wrote: So bringing an absurd list to counter an absurd list isnt a viable thing? That makes no sense, riptides arent the only thing that if you unbound list spam them at that point level you cannot beat without doing a similar absurd spamming list.
No, it's just proof to me that Riptides are absurd.
The wraithknight is T8 and does not deal over half his own wound to himself over the course of the game, I fail to see the comparison.
A HBC riptide has 1.7 wounds after he damages himself.
And you choose to ignore it, because its not comfortable to you, because it shows just how he is NOT both durable and spitting damage, just one or the other.
Even at an ubound spam where you take 3 of them at 750 points, its just 5.1 wounds. yes, on a T6 termi armor, but at this cost you could have just faced 15 or more termies to begin with. and it would require just as much specialized weapons.
"Easily buy FnP" is also a fallacy, its a 35 point upgrade on its own right. 35. that's by no means cheap or easy, few upgrades that people ctually take cost that much. whole transports cost that much at times.
That's a 19% increase in price on its own, once you took that, even if you DO overcharge every single turn, you will not achieve efficiency.
And while you do that, it still costs you 3.33 wounds, meaning that even with the 2.5 wounds you bought from the FnP, you got only 4.2 wounds. on a 215 point model.
You automatic hate of the riptide either from bad experience (rare, I'd bet most of you never faced real riptide spam) or listening to the net clouds your judjement so much you fail to notice every single time riptides caused promlems, they were IA spammed, and not HBC spammed.
And for a good reason, IA is far, far more powerful then HBC, powerful enough to turn it into OP as it got both great defense and great offense with it, rather then choosing.
The RARE HBC riptide that shows up, is one with the ECPA, as that relic takes greatly reduces the problem of the HBC killing the user, making him actually function.
Nobody even bothered addressing that an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to itself over the game. purely because you got nothing to say against it, its a hard fact that you choose to ignore as it completely invalidates the claim he has both good offensive and is hard to kill. because he's simply not. 1.67 wounds, that's all he's got. 4.17 when taking FnP-but then he needs to do 19% more damage to catch up to his increased price tag.
Its just NOT op. the half-comical debunk attempts seems to try to debunk the fact its a bad unit, but nobody claimed its a bad unit, just that it isn't an OP one. and without some specific upgrades (IA and EWO are the prime offenders) he's just a good unit.
I think a 3+ armor save would just about balance the Riptide. It'd still be very difficult to get into melee, can stay away from close-ranged weapons like Plasma Guns, has FNP and still has access to a 3++.
Maybe a 2+ armor save could be bought as an upgrade for 40-50pts.
Right now a Riptide is so durable in many cases its not worth wasting shots on.
Are you required to overcharge the riptide every turn and is the HBC riptide the only kind? Maybe if the riptide wasn't so durable it wouldn't last the entire game to do so many wounds to itself.
Truth118 wrote: I think a 3+ armor save would just about balance the Riptide. It'd still be very difficult to get into melee, can stay away from close-ranged weapons like Plasma Guns, has FNP and still has access to a 3++.
Maybe a 2+ armor save could be bought as an upgrade for 40-50pts.
Right now a Riptide is so durable in many cases its not worth wasting shots on.
Are you required to overcharge the riptide every turn and is the HBC riptide the only kind? Maybe if the riptide wasn't so durable it wouldn't last the entire game to do so many wounds to itself.
I don't know, 40-50 point seems a tad much. Maybe 20-30 with the IA costing 20-30?
The RARE HBC riptide that shows up, is one with the ECPA, as that relic takes greatly reduces the problem of the HBC killing the user, making him actually function.
Nobody even bothered addressing that an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to itself over the game.
Maybe Its because it's RARE, that people aren't addressing it? Maybe because it's overall more balanced than the IA riptide, but I could be wrong on that.
GoliothOnline wrote: If your logic on dealing with an Overpowered units is bring other over powered units, you're basically saying the game is "Win with broken, play to break" The fact people are saying 3+ on a MC that can easily buy FNP and come stock T6 for the immunity to x2 toughness splats would make it useless is incredible... Incredibly slowed.
I don't see Wraithknights having issues with their 3+ saves. Massed fire tends to make them go away. A 3+ on a MC is perfectly suited to the fact the thing has multiple wounds, high mobility and an absurd amount of firepower. People will argue "Oh but the Wraithknight has T8 waaaaaah!" but guess what, it's not as dangerous as a MC who can erase an entire 2+ unit off the board. Not to mention the Wraithknight is perfectly priced for it's toughness and strengths. 12" Guns aren't as scary as 36" and it's 36" guns aren't all that terrifying when compared to the Riptides.
Its 36" gun isnt scary compared to the riptide? Its S10 Ap1 causes ID on a 6 and is BS4. It annihilates anything the Riptide struggles with, and to top it off its exceptional in melee.
T8 is massive boon, the 3+ armor is the only reason that thing isnt 10x as underpriced as the riptide. I have killed many MCs with T5/6 with S7 spamming, which doesnt pen their armor but since its a 3+ theres a decent chance they'll fail enough saves...thats significantly less dangerous against a 2+.
The riptide and wraithknight are basically polar opposites in terms of firepower. Riptide wants to take out lower-to-med toughness 2+ models or light vehicles, the Wraithknight kills heavy vehicles, MCs, and then charge in to punch whatever they can since their 2 shots are less viable against a horde of T3/4 models with an average save compared to its punches.
I admit its better priced for what it does, but still undercosted purely because of that ID chance and the rather effective melee capabilities WITHOUT the sword (not sure why that even exists lol its such a pointless buy)
The RARE HBC riptide that shows up, is one with the ECPA, as that relic takes greatly reduces the problem of the HBC killing the user, making him actually function.
Nobody even bothered addressing that an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to itself over the game.
Maybe Its because it's RARE, that people aren't addressing it? Maybe because it's overall more balanced than the IA riptide, but I could be wrong on that.
My point exactly! the problem is the IA, not the riptide itself. once it carries an HBC, he's not a problem, ergo-no one ever made a deal out of him.
Truth118 wrote: Right now a Riptide is so durable in many cases its not worth wasting shots on.
Are you required to overcharge the riptide every turn and is the HBC riptide the only kind? Maybe if the riptide wasn't so durable it wouldn't last the entire game to do so many wounds to itself.
With the HBC, yes, you ARE required to overcharge pretty much every turn to be effective at shooting, otherwise you are just a big bulk of metal that's hard to kill, but wont make his points back.
And its not the only kind, the other kind is the IA riptide, and once again leading me back to the point that the problem lies in the IA itself, not the riptide as a riptide.
So in fact, its not all that durable its not worth shooting at as long it didnt grab an IA, as without the IA it DOES deal massive damage to himself. the reason the IA is so absurdly powerful comes not only in the damage output improvement, but from the fact you can never NOVA at all, and still pump out raw damage, and even when you do overcharge non-stop, the damage is lower. (2.16 wounds per game compared to 3.33)
IA riptide-broken is feth, and is definitely up as one of the biggest mistakes in current 40k, while not even getting a pass for being "from older edition and broken by rule changes", he was OP from the gate.
HBC riptide-fair deal, even a bit underwhelming (well, he IS pretty good, but requires to make really good decisions when to overcharge in order to get it to preform well, he's not very mistake forgiving there.)
There is no escaping it under any type of unbiased analysis. every single arguement I hear, again and again, is based on IA status, not HBC ones. even after I pointed it out multiple times, people still use IA as a base of their "required nerfs" (and often go way overboard there too)
I have played triptide quite alot and yes it's brutal, the biggest issue I have had isn't the ion accelerator, it's the jump movement, if that got taken away the riptide would be much easier to deal with.
Failing that removal of either the 2+ or the 5++ would also help bring it back inline as it would have to do what most other mc's have to do, hug cover.
Why does it matter if the Riptide is only overpowered with Ion Accelerators? I don't recall Ion Accelerators being one-per-army or any other factor stopping Tau players from taking an Ion Accelerator on every single Riptide in their list.
Vineheart01 wrote: So bringing an absurd list to counter an absurd list isnt a viable thing? That makes no sense, riptides arent the only thing that if you unbound list spam them at that point level you cannot beat without doing a similar absurd spamming list.
I agree with this. You can't say using unbound to bring nothing but Riptides is OP because your opponent "needs to use some absurd unbound list to counter it!" (Not to mention some lists mentioned weren't even unbound).
This is what I mean about the extreme bias surrounding the unit.
My point exactly! the problem is the IA, not the riptide itself. once it carries an HBC, he's not a problem, ergo-no one ever made a deal out of him.
This is somewhat true. I'm not sure it won't balance him (it's still a lot of damage output even if you don't overcharge, on a seriously tanky unit, in an army built on range abuse, and OC is always an option), but it would definitely bring him down from "absurdly OP" to just "better than every other unit in every other dex except the Wave Serpent"
So many Strawman arguments, it's kind of pathetic.
The HBC a Riptide is appropriately priced. T6 2+/5++ Mc is not unheard of. Dreadknights has been around a while, and he's easy to kill. 130pts. Sure, he has one fewer wound and is slower, but excels in CC and is a Psyker, with built in Psykic Defense. Heck, pay 30pts for an Heavy Incinerator and against many targets it's deals similar damage, then it's 20pts less has a S6 AP4 Torrent Flamer for Ignores Cover, is slower, is only base 4W though Nova and gets hot actually makes the HBC more vulnerable, and lacks the secondary weapon. Not horribly miss balanced actually.
The Ia is undercosted, not because of its damage. I've already shown that against most targets. It's damage output is similar to a Battlecannon. And at range it fails to fire 1/6 the time, at close range it deals better damage thanks to secondaries. Damage output without considerable Markerlight Support isn't the issue here, even then LRs can match it with an order. It the durability increase that comes with being able to avoid using Its Nova reactor. This makes the IA Riptide undercosted by ~30pts and that is being potentially generous. This is the biggest issue with the Riptide. IA Riptides may be undercosted by ~10-15%, not nearly as bad as many units and the HBC Riptide is pretty close.
To whoever said the Riptide should have a 3+, that is a joke. It deals too much damage to its, but it you removes Gets Hot and the Nova reactor wounds, it would be appropriately prices for the IA Riptide. The HBC would be slightly over costed due to its vulnerability and range restrictions.
Using Tyranid MCs as an example is erroneous, they are over costed, it's one of the main reasons the Turanid codex is too weak. T6 3+ is just durable enough for what they are charging. Reduce their base cost by 10-20% and the Wings upgrade should have been a bit pricier. He'll, they've screwed up Carnifex pricing two codexes in a row, all because they were OP in 4th with T7 and a 2+. Actually tougher than Riptides are now, and that was 4th Ed!
Same problem with Daemon Princes, the base MC is horribly over costed, but has a horrendously undercosted upgrade, Wings to balance them out. Base DP should have been 30pts cheaper and the Wings should have cost 70pts ie 30pts more.
The Wraithknight manages with a 3+ due to sheer toughness. T8 is difficult to deal with. Even plasma wounds half as often as vs T6. IMO the Wraithknighht needed 5 Wounds and should have came stock with the Sword and Shield for 220. The Heavy wraith cannons should have been a 40pt Upgrade, so should have been the Suncannon. It should also have been allowed to fire 3 weapons or counted the HWC as Heavy 2 instead of 2 weapons. Would see different and more balanced configurations. Wraith Constructs should have also reduced Poison to a 5+.
To whomever said that needing ridiculous unbalanced lists to beat 3 Riptides at 750 is a a bit dense or is just trying to troll, I can't tell. 3 Tides in an unbound list at 750pts is as unbalanced as it gets, of course unbalanced lists are needed to beat it. Of course I picked amazing and OP units, they were the easiest to think of an illustrate that many can beat equal points in Riptides. To beat a horrendously unbalanced list you need another unbalanced list. I also did list some Battleforged lists and some that were fairly TAC at that point level. Don't cherry pick.
Ok I think I addressed most everything.
Oh, Vineheart, the Heavy wraith cannon is S10 AP2 Distort, not AP1.
You talk about strawman arguments. Riptide was never compared to the overpriced TMCs, he was compared only to the Carnifex. 150 points is pretty damn balanced for a Carnifex that shoots 12x TL S6 shots as well. Any lower and it would be quite overpowered (Which is a level I suspect you want your Riptide to remain at). There is no way in hell that Carnifexes are "one of the main reasons the Tyranid codex is too weak". In fact, he's one of the reasons it isn't outright unplayable.
All this aside, it was really just a durability comparison. The Carnifex has 3+, 2 less wounds, no Invul and moves at 6" a turn. And you say 3+ would ruin the Riptide, lol you are being ridiculous and are unlikely to be converting anybody to your cause if you don't formulate sensible arguments.
SHUPPET wrote: You talk about strawman arguments. Riptide was never compared to the overpriced TMCs, he was compared only to the Carnifex. 150 points is pretty damn balanced for a Carnifex that shoots 12x TL S6 shots as well. Any lower and it would be quite overpowered (Which is a level I suspect you want your Riptide to remain at).
There is no way in hell that Carnifexes are "one of the main reasons the Tyranid codex is too weak". In fact, he's one of the reasons it isn't outright unplayable.
All this aside, it was really just a durability comparison. The Carnifex has 3+, 2 less wounds, no Invul and moves at 6" a turn. And you say 3+ would ruin the Riptide, lol you are being ridiculous and are unlikely to be converting anybody to your cause if you don't formulate sensible arguments.
You have have tried reading my argument. Your post is a prime example of a Straw Man Fallacy. You have misrepresented and exaggerated my argument to make it easier to attack. Then you attacked me and my argument together, an Ad Hominem.
Firstly, over the course of this thread the Riptide has been compared to Multiple TMCs. My comments were about TMCs in general stating they have been overcosted in their last two codices. Having one undercosted Option on an overpriced MC which results in a decent unit is a poor argument, and is the same as claiming a balanced MC with an underpriced ugrade is OP. Its too simplistic. The base Carnifex is overcosted, 120pts is too much for a T6 4W 3+ MC. The Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms is undercosted, overall it ends up being a balanced choice. Unless you are saying it is so good and undercosted that without it the Tyranid Codex would be "outright Unplayable"? Remember my comments are in reference to BASE MCs. Many of the most popular MCs that are used are on an overpriced chassis with underpriced upgrades. This has been a trend for two editions worth of MCs.
Next time I strongly suggest you have read the entire thread before you comment about its contents. I suggest you read my posts. I also suggest you try and open your mind and stop Nerd Raging at the Riptide. Could it be that you hate it so much because your precious TMCs are on overcosted chassis? Just in case you missed it, that was an ab hominem just for you. I can stoop to that level too, I'd prefer not to for the rest of the thread. Thank you.
I don't think 120 pts is severly overcosted for an MC with S9 +D3 extra HoW attacks. TL-Devourer is just the sensible choice as it doesn't stop it from doing that at all, and when is S6 spam not going to be in some way useful?
To put it another way, why do you not just look at the entire two units as a package, instead of breaking them down without the upgrades they will almost always be taking? Sure Carnifex without Dakka is not as good, but I imagine its a gakload better than Riptide with no guns. But why the hell is this even relevant?
Yes any comparison to the bad TMCs is pointless as they too are unbalanced. But it's clear this is not at all relevant to you, as comparing it even to a balanced MC is not good enough. It wasn't compared strictly to just the bad TMCs, it was compared to the good ones as well. Your statement that it is erroneous to compare to the "TMCs in general because they are mostly overcosted" is silly, as it does nothing to address the actual sensible comparison to the durability of the properly costed ones. Why are you skirting that?
You keep going on about Strawman. Yet yours is the only arguments it applies to. It's funny that everyone I see use the term, seems to be the only person guilty of the fallacy. I said it's one of the reasons the codex isn't unplayably gak. Not the only reason. Do you think I believe Codex: Carnifex is enough to be the armies only saving grace? Nope, although it is one of the core playable units. Also, if it WAS the only unit that kept the codex afloat, as a balanced unit, it does not make it underpriced, it makes the rest of the codex overcosted.
But once again, on the subject of Strawman, none of what you said addresses anything to do with the underlying statement that Riptide is still better than a Carnifex in absolutely every way except for a tied armor save, even with a 3+ save. This does not make it "practically worthless", or "a joke". You need to spend less time arguing about the delivery of arguments, and actually focus on delivering your own point, because it's coming across badly (very badly).
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think 120 pts is severly overcosted for an MC with S9 +D3 extra HoW attacks. TL-Devourer is just the sensible choice as it doesn't stop it from doing that at all, and when is S6 spam not going to be in some way useful?
To put it another way, why do you not just look at the entire two units as a package, instead of breaking them down without the upgrades they will almost always be taking? Sure Carnifex without Dakka is not as good, but I imagine its a gakload better than Riptide with no guns. But why the hell is this even relevant?
Yes any comparison to the bad TMCs is pointless as they too are unbalanced. But it's clear this is not at all relevant to you, as comparing it even to a balanced MC is not good enough. It wasn't compared strictly to just the bad TMCs, it was compared to the good ones as well. Your statement that it is erroneous to compare to the "TMCs in general because they are mostly overcosted" is silly, as it does nothing to address the actual sensible comparison to the durability of the properly costed ones. Why are you skirting that?
You keep going on about Strawman. Yet yours is the only arguments it applies to. It's funny that everyone I see use the term, seems to be the only person guilty of the fallacy. I said it's one of the reasons the codex isn't unplayably gak. Not the only reason. Do you think I believe Codex: Carnifex is enough to be the armies only saving grace? Nope, although it is one of the core playable units. Also, if it WAS the only unit that kept the codex afloat, as a balanced unit, it does not make it underpriced, it makes the rest of the codex overcosted.
But once again, on the subject of Strawman, none of what you said addresses anything to do with the underlying statement that Riptide is still better than a Carnifex in absolutely every way except for a tied armor save, even with a 3+ save. This does not make it "practically worthless", or "a joke". You need to spend less time arguing about the delivery of arguments, and actually focus on delivering your own point, because it's coming across badly (very badly).
How did I misrepresent your argument to make it easier to attack? You certainly did that to my argument. Do you know the definition of Straw Man Fallacy?
Of course the base MC cost is a concern. Of course a unit with particular options is relevant, but the base unit is extremely relevant too. We can have an undercosted base unit with undercosted upgrades, we can have an overcosted unit with overcosted upgrades, we can have an appropratiely costed unit with undercosted upgrades etc. What needs to be examined is the worth of each part, the base unit and its upgrades. Taking an overcosted unit with a particular undercosted option and calling it a balanced unit is wrong, its a balanced choice. The unit itself is still overcosted, it just so happens to have an undercosted upgrade with makes it appropriately costed. Don't over simplify the issue. You are dealing in Blacks and Whites while I am dealing in shades of Grey. Oversimplification is a problem here.
120pts for T6 3+ and 4W at 6"' movement is overcosted. If you feel that it is appropriate, you should feel it has just as much worth running a stock Carnifex as running a Carnifex with dual Brainleech Devourers? If not, then you believe it is overcosted base contrary to your assertion to the contrary.
Lets do a quick comparison between the 150pt Carnifex with Dual Brainleech Devourers and a `80pt Stock Riptide as their weapon load outs are similar.
Carnifex Cons
4 Wounds
3+ AS 6" Movement
18" Range Weapons
Instinctive Behavior
BS3
Riptide Cons
BS3
Nova Reactor Risk and Dependence
Gets Hot High RoF Weapon
Vulnerable to CC Vulnerable to Leadership
Riptide Pros
5W
2+5++
36" Range Weapon
Potential for Rending
Secondary Weapons
Jet Pack
Potential for Markerlight Support
These aren't terribly unbalanced units. The Riptide's reliance on its Nova Reactor and a high Rate of Fire Gets Hot weapon mitigates its initial Resiliancy as it actively kills itself. For example over the course of a 6 turn game the Riptdies deals 3.33 wounds to itself. By turn 3 an enemy has to deal on average 3.33 wounds though a T6 2+/5++ vs the 4 Wounds at T6 3+. The Carnifex's Weapons are much more accurate and damaging against a variety of opponents when within the limited range, but the Riptide has access to longer ranged weaponry and secondary weapons. The Riptide is abysmal in CC and tries to avoid it while the Carnifex is a monster in CC and looks to engage in CC when possible. Both have access to support in the form of Resiliency in FNP and Run +Shoot for increased Mobility whereas the Riptide gains only increased offense potential. When screened for a 5+ cover save the Carnifex closes the resiliency gap against high strength low AP weaponry.
Overall, the gap between the two units gets closed quite a bit when you add Brainleech Devourers to the mix. IMO the Carnifex is still a bit undercosted mainly due to its fragile frame for 120pts it should have a 5th wound and the BLDs should be 20pts a piece.
We need to look at base units in addition to their potential upgrades when determining what is priced appropriately and what is not.
I going to try and raise the maturity level of our last couple of posts. We are adults and should be able to have a civilized discourse.
Without yet saying 3+ is necessary in a world where they can't take IA, as it stands the statement was made about giving it 3+ save without taking away the IA makes it "practically worthless" which is outright laughable. One of the strongest units in the game going to unplayable because he only has power armour and not terminator? Seriously doubtful.
Now on to the HBC Riptide. ASSUMING no Nova, it's putting out 8 S6 ap 4 shots a turn and whatever secondar weapons it has., call it SMS that's another 5 S5 AP5 shots a turn. Compared to the no AP of Devourers, this is a similar amount of firepower, if slightly less. But factor in that you will be shooting from turn 1 onwards unlike Carnifex who often needs to run up the centre of the board opening him up to shooting, just to get a TURN 2 volley on something that isn't backfield, this quickly gives the advantage over to the RIPTIDES way, even factoring in Twin linked from the Devvies. Then you have the fact that the Riptide can take Skyfire, and a bunch of other options. Then the fact that you aren't even Novashooting the HBC and you realise that if you have done the 3 wounds to yourself over 6 turns, you have also spent 6 turns of firing 150% of your main fire again! plus rending. This is an extremely powerful OPTION. At 30 pts more than a Dakkafex, I'm pretty sure HBC Riptide having double the range and triple the manuevarability of a Carnifex, similar firepower, with the option to further increase it by 150% (I mean even if you do take a wound, and even then you still have the number of wounds left that a Carnifex starts with), as well as having an Invul, I think all this is more an enough to justify 30 pts higher without him needing Terminator armour as opposed to Carni's.
And it undeniably would not make him unplayable either way. He would still be extremely powerful.
I would just like to ask you Zagman...why do you consider the Carnifex good at CC? Is it because everything you hear about on the internet?
Look at the stats for the thing;
WS3 S9 A3. So IF it gets the charge it will get D3 HoW at S9 AP-, say against the Riptide, chances are no damage from the HoW. Next up it swings at the Riptide hitting a mighty TWO times on the charge, three if the odds are in your favor, and let's go ahead and assume the best case scenario for the CC Carnifex and say that it has two sets of CC weapons and not the ever prevalent 2x Brainleech Devourers. So then at best it is swinging in with 3 HoW, not going to hurt the Riptide on average, 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hits, and 4 wounds. Again, giving the Carnifex the benefit on all the statistics. Off those 4 wounds only about 3 go through with only the 5+++, but with a 3++/5++ then you are seeing only about 1 wound go through on the Riptide. Then the Riptide can turn around and get in say, 1/2 a wound a turn if the dice go against you.
I mean, this is playing fast a loose with the numbers here to give a ROUGH idea of how that fight would go down and it doesn't look terrible for the Riptide. The worst case scenario for the Riptide isn't going to happen often and outside of that the Carnifex isn't exactly tearing things up in CC.
Carnifex and Genestealers are held up to this legacy that they will never again be even close to.
My POINT is...that compared to other MCs the Riptide puts out more damage, is more survivable, and is faster than all of its competition with maybe the exception of the Wraithknigth.
Comparing the Riptide to TMC's, the Avatar, C'tan Shards, Greater Daemons, etc, is why so many people say it is OP. It outclasses almost everything in its class.
Without yet saying 3+ is necessary in a world where they can't take IA, as it stands the statement was made about giving it 3+ save without taking away the IA makes it "practically worthless" which is outright laughable. One of the strongest units in the game going to unplayable because he only has power armour and not terminator? Seriously doubtful.
Now on to the HBC Riptide. ASSUMING no Nova, it's putting out 8 S6 ap 4 shots a turn and whatever secondar weapons it has., call it SMS that's another 5 S5 AP5 shots a turn. Compared to the no AP of Devourers, this is a similar amount of firepower, if slightly less. But factor in that you will be shooting from turn 1 onwards unlike Carnifex who often needs to run up the centre of the board opening him up to shooting, just to get a TURN 2 volley on something that isn't backfield, this quickly gives the advantage over to the RIPTIDES way, even factoring in Twin linked from the Devvies. Then you have the fact that the Riptide can take Skyfire, and a bunch of other options. Then the fact that you aren't even Novashooting the HBC and you realise that if you have done the 3 wounds to yourself over 6 turns, you have also spent 6 turns of firing 150% of your main fire again! plus rending. This is an extremely powerful OPTION. At 30 pts more than a Dakkafex, I'm pretty sure HBC Riptide having double the range and triple the manuevarability of a Carnifex, similar firepower, with the option to further increase it by 150% (I mean even if you do take a wound, and even then you still have the number of wounds left that a Carnifex starts with), as well as having an Invul, I think all this is more an enough to justify 30 pts higher without him needing Terminator armour as opposed to Carni's.
And it undeniably would not make him unplayable either way. He would still be extremely powerful.
You have been misinterpreting one of my previous comments. With a 3+ the HBC Riptide would deal 4.66 Wounds to itself over the course of a game. That is extreme and of terrible design, it also would make the IA mandatory instead of a mere option, that is why it is a bad suggestion and unplayable Then the Riptide would effectively be much much more vulnerable than a Carnifex.
Yes, the Riptide can take a Skyfire option, at another 20pts or 11% increase in price whereas the Carnifex is by default moderately effective vs flyers.
SMS is only Heavy 4.
You failed to mention CC. Or T1 if an enemy advances the Carnifex is shooting T1 as well. I have said TMCs are overpriced, you assert the Brainleech Carnifex is appropriately priced, you also assert the Riptide is much better, your assertions lead to a defacto conclusion.
@Arbiter_Shade
Lose the insults.
The Carnifex is good in CC vs most targets. Assuming it is in combat with a riptide is as all sample size. Carnifexes aren't vulnerable to multiaddault breaking and are less likely to be tar pitted.
S9 wounds almost every MC on 2s, it heals a good number of attacks on the charge. They also double out T4 models without Smashing. Their Melee Attacks are effective against all vehicles with Smashing. Are you saying 3 Attacks at S9 AP2 in Melee is bad? With additional HoW?
Even against a Riptide in CC with neither charging the Carnifex deals ~150% the damage the Riptide does, 1.1 Wound vs .75. The Riptide can be broken and run down by a higher it Carnifex. Carnifexes can't be broken and run down.
TMCs are over costed as I have stated and tried to backup. The Avatar is expensive but an absolute Monster in CC with access to doubletqp BS10 Melta. C'Tan shards are a bad 5th ed leftover that were never appropriately costed, Greater Daemons are entirely different,mall are better in CC, two are FMCS, Psykers, one is T7 with many more wounds. Direct comparison is nearly impossible.
The Dreadknights is actually a good comparison due to a similar chassis and even it is a 5th edition leftover. The Wraithknigt is very powerful and if we do a comparison I have no doubt that it is a better deal than a riptide.
[Excuse the typo on the 5, was meant to be 4, and all calculations were relevant to it]
You have been misinterpreting one of my previous comments. With a 3+ the HBC Riptide would deal 4.66 Wounds to itself over the course of a game. That is extreme and of terrible design, it also would make the IA mandatory instead of a mere option, that is why it is a bad suggestion and unplayable Then the Riptide would effectively be much much more vulnerable than a Carnifex.
Well, the IA practically is mandatory instead of an option as is. I thought we were talking about IA being definitely OP and ruled out as an option and going from there for balancing the Riptide. And my point is, that HBC Riptide without the novashots EVERYTURN, still matches Carnifex for shooting and has the option for Nova shots. He also has far more mobility and survivability, and range than the Carnifex. It's only a 30 pt difference and this is more than justified. Gets Hot is only a factor if you are even further increasing the benefits you have on Carnifex.
Issues like being out of range, and getting shot up out of cover are not always going to be an issue for Carnifex - but they will never (or almost never) be an issue for Riptide, so its still a big plus he has
SHUPPET wrote: [Excuse the typo on the 5, was meant to be 4, and all calculations were relevant to it
You have been misinterpreting one of my previous comments. With a 3+ the HBC Riptide would deal 4.66 Wounds to itself over the course of a game. That is extreme and of terrible design, it also would make the IA mandatory instead of a mere option, that is why it is a bad suggestion and unplayable Then the Riptide would effectively be much much more vulnerable than a Carnifex.
]
Well, the IA practically is mandatory instead of an option as is. I thought we were talking about IA being definitely OP and ruled out as an option and going from there for balancing the Riptide. And my point is, that HBC Riptide without the novashots EVERYTURN, still matches Carnifex for shooting and has the option for Nova shots. He also has far more mobility and survivability, and range than the Carnifex. It's only a 30 pt difference and this is more than justified. Gets Hot is only a factor if you are even further increasing the benefits you have on Carnifex.
Issues like being out of range, and getting shot up out of cover are not always going to be an issue for Carnifex - but they will never (or almost never) be an issue for Riptide, so its still a big plus he has
And choosing not to use your Nova Reactor greatly reduces the Riptides effectiveness. When in range, the the Fex's shooting is more effective vs a variety of targets including light AV, high T targets, and models with a 3+ or 2+ AS. Even with a VT the non Nova HBC is marginally more effective, without it's not even a comparison. That reduced firepower directly results in an increase in durability and is pretty balanced. Assuming the SMS is not a guarantee, Fusion Blasters are pretty common as well due to Tau's difficulty in dealing with high AV Targets. The move to Mech in 7th is going to increase the popularity of TLFBs over SMS.
These units are not completely balanced, the Riptide is better in general game conditions and is only 30pts more expensive before upgrades. The only thing we can conclude is that the Riptide is more effective and is likely a better value per point. That does not prove the Dakkafex is a point appropriate model, remember I've asserted it's undercosted as an FMC.
What is really needed is to take ever common MC in the game in their base configuration and compare them against each other. Care should be taken to keep the MCs 5th and 6th ed origins in mind. Then, each MC needs to be taken in its optimal configurations and these need to be compared to both their base configurations and each other. Then and only then can we determine how each Mc fairs in its base and optimal configurations. It would also tell us if each base MC is appropriately costed to each other and the relative worth of each upgrade.
I know it's anecdotal, but I mostly field HBC Riptides with TLFB Stims and VTs on a competitive level, one always has an ECPA. Only when I field 3 or O'Vesa Do I field an IA Riptide. My Tides serve as AA and Anti FMC as I'm not using Skyrays. I generally use Burst Suits with Gun Drones, MP Suits, and FB suits for other targets. Yes, I was running Triptode competitively with MSU units. In 6th I relied on a BuffCommander to join a Riptide and really make them shine. In 7th Riptides will not be ass effective and will rely on Markerlights so much more. They will still be very good, but no where near the levels of 6th. I've seen what an opponent putting down four IA Riptides looks like, and it wasn't that effective. I've also seen a Quintide list at 1850, it didn't do well at all. Even in 6th Spamming IA Riptides was not the answer and quickly became detrimental to the list against good competitive lists.
Spamming IA Riptides is a viable strategy, but unbalances lists quickly. They are poor AA even with VTs and less than stellar vs Light and Mid AV. They may be ultra durable, but they are an auto win. They do excel at taking out elite infantry, but their ideal target profile is limited. Many armies can ignore them until they can engage them in CC or counter them in a different way. Without Markerlight Support you have a very expensive Pie Plate that still grants cover saves, fails to fire 1/6 shots, and Brings little but durability.
Fair enough on the Skyfire Calcs, Dakkafex is naturally good at that and you are paying for that AA on Riptide. I will concede that they are more or less evenly balanced on this level
However with IA its just a silly model. Just silly silly silly to say the thing is balanced as is, or that a 3+ save would make it unplayable.
I don't think Dakkafex is undercosted, at his old cost he was never taken. Ever. And that was when he had the option of drop pod mobility as well. He was only reduced 30 points, very unlikely that he was sufficiently balanced somewhere in between and if so the difference would be marginal.
Regardless, if you do think he is undercosted, and you agree Riptide is far better in general (which I think is pretty apparent as well) for only 30 pts more, and this includes facing none of Carnifexe's inherit issues like range and mobility, then I don't see how you can say Riptide is not over-powered.
And choosing not to use your Nova Reactor greatly reduces the Riptides effectiveness. When in range, the the Fex's shooting is more effective vs a variety of targets including light AV, high T targets, and models with a 3+ or 2+ AS. Even with a VT the non Nova HBC is marginally more effective, without it's not even a comparison. That reduced firepower directly results in an increase in durability and is pretty balanced. Assuming the SMS is not a guarantee, Fusion Blasters are pretty common as well due to Tau's difficulty in dealing with high AV Targets. The move to Mech in 7th is going to increase the popularity of TLFBs over SMS.
Yes choosing not to use your Nova reduces your firepower - which is exactly my point, when you factor in 4 more S5 AP5 shots for free to even up the number of shots, and having all AP4-5 evens the score a little would you not say, if not quite matching Fex due to its TL. Against Vehicles, only 8x S6 shots can definitely do damage, 4 more shots will help, but STILL HAVE THE OPTION TONOVA. Even if it gives you a wound, which usually takes 2 turns even with +3, you still have as many wounds as the Dakkafex did. And a bunch of other options. And 4x S5 shots. Or, as you said, the option of FB's (an option that Dakkafex does NOT have, you cannot list your CHOICE to drop your SMS missiles for this as a downside the Riptide has LOL - and Tyanids have far more trouble with high AV than Tau does).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Riptide is a really cool concept and an even cooler model. I don't want to see him unplayable, however it sucks that he is so "easy mode" and should have inherit risks for such amazing firepower. The mobility is ok and plays to the armies strengths, the durability is too much. Far too much. In 5th Tau was built around winning with careful play choices, its a shame they couldn't translate this into the 6th better, while obviously fixing the crap tier stuff. I was looking to pick up a copy of the new Tau dex when it dropped, then I saw the crazyness and could not do it.
You keep returning to the IA as the reason to why 3+ armor is a good idea, even though we shown clearly that with 3+ armor the HBC is outright unplayable. (dealing 4.66 wounds to itself over the course of a game!)
We are looking at a riptide under the assumption that the IA does NOT exist to see if he's fair, and when we see that while the IA does not exist he is fair, while with it he is OP, the obvious conclusion is that the riptide itself is balanced, and the IA is broken.
So why cant you just accept the fact that the problem does not come from the body of the riptide, but from the IA upgrade itself? THATS what's braking the riptide.
High toughness, high wounds, terminator armor? without them the HBCtide would be less durable then a simple crisis suit.
The same applied to the 6th edition heldrake. hades autocannon? good but fair. baleflamer? completely overpowered. why? because baleflamer had 360 arc that completely invalidated the heldrake's need to position properly in order to shoot (so you could both take full advantage of VS and shoot normally), taking away its major problem of not being able to pull off both weapons at once effectively (or at all) and taking away the need to ever hover (and risking yourself). it made him OP not because the baleflamer was innately much better then the hades autocannon, but because it interacted too well with the rest of the model and removed his weaknesses (not any more now that its hull-mounted and not turret)
The overcharge on the HBC deals, between NOVA itself and "gets hot" 3.333 wounds on the riptide, slightly more then every other turn, a fact you KEEP ignoring for the last two pages.
And as mathmatically shown before (by anti-riptide's side no less), the damage output without it is subpar.
Even compared to the dakkafex (who is widely considered underpowered and generally looked at as a subpar unit) the non-nova HBC has 8 S6AP4 shots and 4 TL S5AP5 shots, while the dakkafex pumps 12 TL S6 shots, meaning more hits with higher S value, and we both know AP4-5 is hardly even relevant in this game, even when the AP5 ignores cover the dakkafex will outshoot the non-nova HBC on any possible target in the game. and the riptide has no real power BUT shooting, while the fex can do a good work in CC against most targets.
If you don't overcharge alot, your HBC riptide is a bad investment, and well get outshot even by basic infantry of most armies.
Not once did I return to the IA. Every time that Zagman returned to it I completely discounted the fact that it would be unplayable with 3+ save, then moved back off the IA Riptide and on to the HBC one.
HBC Riptide (no novas) out damages Carni thanks to the fact that it's shooting on turn 1 with double range and larger target selection. It has AP4-5 to make up for 1 point less S on only 4 of its shots. It then has triple the mobility of a Carnifex. It also has an extra wound and a strong ass Invul. Then after all that, it can Nova, pushing its firepower even further, at the risk of Gets Hot. All this for 30 pts.
But hey, wasn't it you who said That even Riptides with IA are useless with a 3+ save.
You are bad at this. Like it or not, The cheese factory that is Riptide will be nerfed in the next Tau release. Maybe if you start being realistic with your opinions on necessary change, you might just get some good karma and be left with something playable. =)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now let me just clarify something - I don't even think with a 3+ save the thing is balanced. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to argue that the Riptide is balanced and would be useless with a 3+ save - it's an unhealthy amount of bias shown towards your army. Try to get a clear perspective and look at how quite undeniably OP it currently is.
All I'm hearing.is "I.want to use nova every turn but it will hurt me waaaaaahhhh"
Get over it, 4.66 wounds.over the course of a game makes it unplayable, bull, it forces you to decide whether or not to actually activate the charge rather than just doing it every turn, and correct me if I'm wrong 6 shots from the hbc? Plus 4 from the sms, that's pretty good alone.
Your striking me as someone who wants his cake and to eat it, tide needs a nerf and a 3+ save would help that, or loss of the invun, either of those would go a long way to making it balanced.
Even then, if it takes those 4 wounds it means its lived to turn 6 anyway and has no doubt aced a lot of stuff with 6 turns of Nova shooting.
After every second turn of nova shooting with a 3+ save it takes average 1 wound, making it a still a T6 4W range dictacting JSJ nightmare for everything of its class, and so on and so forth. Oh your low on wounds and your Riptide is in threat range? Poor you, you might just have to settle for 8 S6 AP4 and 4 S5 AP 5 shots.
Even HBC Riptide outdamages, out tanks, and out maneuvers all other models in its size bracket, and that's without nova. Nova gives it them option to transmute some of that ridiculous tankiness into even more firepower. Show me a single 200 pt MC that matches it for firepower. There is none. Even if some get close, they are completely outclassed by his mobility, range, and the fact that he gets terminator armour when almost everything else gets power armour.
Defending this cheese machine just hurts your own credibility.
Sorry, but you are just talking nonsens, completely discounter the fact it would be unplayalbe with 3+ save under HBC limitations?!
No one, and I mean NO ONE. not a single army in the game, would take an HBC riptide with a 3+, even at 20 points discount. he's just impractical, losing out both on the durability side and the offensive side to the point he CANT do his job.
The full-nova effects of 3+ armor are 4.66 self wounds over the game on average. (you still ignore that) meaning that it would have about the durability of a single tactical marine.
The non-nova effects, while you claim "only 4 shots are lower S" also ignore the reduced accuracy, the riptide will hit 3 S% hits and 4 S6, the dakkafex hits 9 S6 hits. so its 2 extra S6 hits, and upgrading 3 hits from 5 to 6. a RELEVANT change against any target in the game that is lower then AV13 and higher then T2 or single wound T3.
Yes, the riptide will shot first, but the dakkafex WILL outshoot it. and attempting the feeble grab of the AP values is a joke, they do not apply against most relevant targets anyway, and when they do-they hardly make a difference due to cover. the dakkafex will then continue to be a decent CC unit, and cost less to begin with.
The riptides edge in mobility and durability becomes irrelevant as there is no point even shooting at it when it refuses to NOVA, he just won't get anything meaningful done anyway.
The HBC riptide under the assumption of no-nova barely brakes even against a dakkafex in pure shooting abilities. a cheaper, suboptimal MC that is not even wholly shooting dedicated like the riptide is. the HBC riptide under the assumption of full-nova goes far beyond dakkafex, but becomes more fragile then him, and as a pure-shooter SHOULD out-shoot a non-pure shooter.
The only place the HBC really beats the dakkafex in a meaningful way on cost/effect levels, is when educated decisions when to nova and when to avoid are made, such decisions can also be mistakes and lead to a downgrade in over-game efficiency and as such we cannot simply assume perfect choices will be made.
And the dakkafex is a subpar unit. not a top-tier one.
You keep hanging on to things that were proven mathematically wrong, in-game wrong, disproved on multiple levels, rebuted multiple times and were found lacking for a long time now. in fact, you still hang on to nonsense we dismissed in the weeks after the codex came out when we (tau-dedicated) have judged every single unit in the codex, in every single setup, and the obvious conclusion is that there is almost never a good reason to take HBC riptide as they are on a competitive viewpoint. they are no vespids or stealth suits who barely manage even is casual games, but they are FAR from top-tier choices, and every single job we are looking for can be better filled by another unit. the HBC's only saving grace was that he's well-rounded and acts as a "jack of all trades" type of unit, but once we factor in the fact tau is the army that can shift his focus mid-game with markerlights channeling added efficency to changing specialists, you don't need jacks, you need specialists.
"The cheese factory that is Riptide will be nerfed in the next Tau release." shows if anything that YOU are the one biased.
Let me asked you this, have you ever, even ONCE faced HBC riptide without the ECPA? let alone multiples? or are you working with internet-base assumptions?
You don't even thing he's balanced at 3+ save, a point PROVEN that he almost kills himself on his own without a single shot fired at him if he attempts to shoot well.
I'll repeat it again-nobody would field an HBC riptide with a 3+ save for cost near what it is now, nobody. EVER. not even in casual games where we run silly units like vespids and stealth suits from time to time. not me, not you, not anyone. maybe just once, then actually see how badly it preforms and say "never again". in ANY army, not just in tau. its not worth it, and the fact you somehow justify he is in your mind just shows how much you have initial bias against any and all riptides, without even considering the MASSIVE difference we time after time have shown between the two breeds.
Its like you don't even read anything we write, as you pretty much ignore it, so at this point I'll do myself a favor and stop answer you.
(And before you become a smartass, having the "last word" and me giving up on you won't make you right, that's a 6-years-old logic. people like you appear in any game that insist something they don't like is OP even when UP and things they like are UP even when OP.)
(And before you try to throw the same thing at me, I'll let you know I rarely field riptides at all. my record so far is 1 riptide. in tournaments. I am NOT a riptide fanboy, not even close.)
(Yes, I'm also pretty good at neutralizing counter-arguments before people even say them. I've been down this road more times then you can imagine on more topics then you can imagine. I know all the fallacies out there, and I can see them coming before people even say them. nothing quite takes the rug under the feet of such an argument then answering it before it even came up.)
LOL you don't know what bias means. Bias is when you are predisposed to think one way or another. IE the fact that you are a Tau player makes you not want to admit that something ridiculously OP, simply because its a staple for you. The fact that I have no such bias, and can see that the Riptide is heading directly towards a nerf, shows that I am actually unbiased in this account, as I'm taking in the facts and not letting personal judgement cloud my mind. What on earth would make you think the current domination of the Riptide is going to result in anything but it being nerfed?
There is no reason to take HBC Riptide, simply because he has an IA cannon. Or did you and your expert team of Tau analysts plan for this conversation here as well where we are talking about the HBC Riptide in a vacuum where the IA is no longer an upgrade for Riptide?
The riptides edge in mobility and durability becomes irrelevant as there is no point even shooting at it when it refuses to NOVA, he just won't get anything meaningful done anyway
Lol you aren't "refusing to nova" you just don't have to spam it every shot every game, if you think the chance at self wounding is not worth the payoff this turn. It takes 2 turns to even take 1 wound on average. Oh my. So crippling. He comes with 5 of them, T6 and a 5+ manipulable invul save.
It's so hilarious that you refuse to admit that a 3+ HBC Riptide is playable, it's hardly even relevant as the Riptide will always have IA, it's just entertaining to see the lengths you will go to defend the current Riptide needing it's broken ass stats.
If Dakkafex sees a bunch of play amongst Tyranids, it's obviously not unplayable. If HBC Riptide almost completely outclasses it, it's quite clearly not unplayable either, nor is it subpar. You would still play it, you just wouldn't get the results that you get with the current overpowered implementation of the Riptide. Which is, in fact, the point.
INB4 another mindless post about 3+ Riptides being forced to kill themselves every game when iits clearly not how it works in practice. Maths doesn't account for the fact that you are dealing 150% more damage, cutting down the amount of recieved wounds, and a bunch of other events that could come into play by TURN FREAKING 6. Oh or you could just, you know, not Nova when you get low on Wounds or if in threat range of something capable of putting hurt on it, and settle that turn for the firepower better than absolutely every other MC of it's size (if not Dakkafex, please, show me an MC that matches it for firepower at 180 or less - hell make it 200). But, damn, that would take decision making and judgement skills, and that's much harder than CHARGING MAH LAZORS
Automatically Appended Next Post: On second thoughts, I think I'm going to bow out of this argument. The people who claim Riptide is not OP and also just happen to be Tau players are clearly not being honest even with themselves. Labelling a model that even with heavy nerfs still outclasses every other MC in its points bracket as "practically worthless" is beyond stupid. This debate doesn't affect me, and the people that it does affect and are obviously trying to defend their personal stake in it, also obviously have no purpose listening to reason. I'll check out Tau when their next dex drops, if its at a reasonable power level I'll pick up the dex and crack my Tau back out. But till then, thanks for reminding me, and reinforcing the stereotype in general that this army attracts "certain types of players".
"Oh noes, if the Riptide only has a 3+/5++ save and Nova charges every turn then by turn 6 it will only be as durable as a T6 marine with a 5++ save and superior mobility, range and firepower! Woe is me!"
Just so you know, statistically speaking Jinking or going at cruising speed hurts the Annihilation Barge's firepower more than not Nova Charging the HBC hurts the Riptide's firepower- 3.66/5.33 hits on the TL destructor is 68.75% firepower, 1/2 hits on the Tesla Cannon is 50% for the secondary. This is as opposed to a Riptide "dropping" to 66.6% firepower from its primary and keeping 100% firepower on its secondary.
This also ignores the fact that Annihilation Barges tend to snuff it in the early game when more firepower is generally being tossed about and they stand out as primary targets for anti-tank weaponry and almost always have to cruise on turn one to get into weapons range, while Riptides significantly outrange and outmaneuver most battlefield threats and barring freak accidents almost never come under threat of dying until well into the late game if EVER.
Forgive me if the cries of "my Riptide will be terribly easy to kill by turn 6" do not move me when I generally consider it a miracle if my Barges survive that long.
Zagman I don't know where you read an insult in my post and I am sorry for any offense that I caused you, I never intended to insult you.
It does not matter if an MC is from 5th or 6th, because you seem to have an idea that they are going to change drastically in 6th and that just isn't true if the Tyranid codex is anything to go by. Even if it is true, isn't that kind of power creep a problem? Isn't saying that MC written for 6th vastly overpower those written for 5th proving the point that the Riptide IS OP?
The Carnifex is slightly better than the Riptide in CC against anything that isn't a vehicle, against vehicles the Carnifex is WORLDS better but the thing is, if the player with the vehicle is even slightly decent at the game they can avoid the Carnifex the entire game and kite it. Not to mention the fact that the Carnifex needs to get into CC in order for it to be any good in that situation and as we all know assault isn't doing so great the past three editions.
The best and only way to compare the Riptide to the Carnifex is by doing it to a dakkafex. A Riptide with a HBC/TLSMS and Simulant injector with Pathfinder support vs a Dakkafex with Catalyst. Both scenarios require the support of another unit, one isn't even a guarantee when building your list. The Riptide WITHOUT Nova will be shooting at, say, BS5 8 S6 AP4 at 36" and 4 S5 AP5 at 30" that ignores cover and is TL with a 2+/5++/5+++ T6 5W. The Carnifex is shooting a BS3 12 S6 AP6 at 24" with 3+/5+++ T6 W4. Even without the Nova charge the Riptide isn't that far off from the damage potential of the Carnifex while at the same time being hardier and faster.
But I have to agree with Shuppet at this point, after reading that "A 3+ Riptide would be USELESS!" I just can't take this argument seriously anymore. These is such a lack of perspective for someone to even begin to think that a Riptide would be useless because it might kill itself over 6 TURNS, how on earth do you justify this? Why do you need it to last PAST 6 turns? By that point the game is literally over and if you had that many rounds of uninterrupted Riptide destruction I would say things have been going GREAT for you. It is the same thing I think about when I hear IG players that complain about the Executioner having a chance to kill itself after about, you guessed it, 6 turns. So what? The amount of damage you are spitting out makes up for the fact that you might actually lose a model.
"Oh noes, if the Riptide only has a 3+/5++ save and Nova charges every turn then by turn 6 it will only be as durable as a T6 marine with a 5++ save and superior mobility, range and firepower! Woe is me!"
Just so you know, statistically speaking Jinking or going at cruising speed hurts the Annihilation Barge's firepower more than not Nova Charging the HBC hurts the Riptide's firepower- 3.66/5.33 hits on the TL destructor is 68.75% firepower, 1/2 hits on the Tesla Cannon is 50% for the secondary. This is as opposed to a Riptide "dropping" to 66.6% firepower from its primary and keeping 100% firepower on its secondary.
This also ignores the fact that Annihilation Barges tend to snuff it in the early game when more firepower is generally being tossed about and they stand out as primary targets for anti-tank weaponry and almost always have to cruise on turn one to get into weapons range, while Riptides significantly outrange and outmaneuver most battlefield threats and barring freak accidents almost never come under threat of dying until well into the late game if EVER.
Forgive me if the cries of "my Riptide will be terribly easy to kill by turn 6" do not move me when I generally consider it a miracle if my Barges survive that long.
Exactly... The only time my riptides came a real cropper was due to a centurion fly-by with a storm raven
That being said Eldar Wraithknights are almost equally nasty, yet are shockingly absent in this argument partly because of waveserpents being far better. The IA is undercosted thats true, but looking at the Wraithknight and riptide together there are fundemental differences in how they are durable. The riptide has a 2+/5+ or 3+ if you nova (inherent risk in doing this of course) yet is only toughness 6 with 5 wounds, the wraithknight tots a 'mere' toughness of 8 (and 6 wounds...)which makes it far harder to kill with the weapons that usually get shot at riptides, therefore countering the 3+ save (also not ignoring the 5+ with the shield). Oh and lets not forget it is a dab handy at waltzing over to any unit and giving it a good pasting in CC. Something which the riptide cannot do. A very slick balance here by GW standards, low save but high toughness and more wounds, with an opposite of a lower toughness and wounds with a 'better' save.
The Nid MCs are a bad lot due to the fact that they are costed all over the place, yet if they followed the Riptide and Wraithiknight example then things would be different, and arguablly better.
Ritides get the flak because their usage is a simple formula: get into firing position; markerlight the target: fire the riptide at it: jump move in the assault phase to move into a safer postion ready to react next turn. Quite a few times i've warned people to "kill those markerlight units otherwise the Riptides will have a field day" yet they ignored that advice and suffered as a result.
In my group at least Ritpides are hardly a problem, Daemon FMCs and twin Wraithknights gather far more whines for good reason.
Just my humble opinion...
Oh and Just to add fuel to the fire, has anybody in this debate actaully bothered to look at the FW Ri'varna Riptide at all? That add another twist...
SHUPPET wrote: Not once did I return to the IA. Every time that Zagman returned to it I completely discounted the fact that it would be unplayable with 3+ save, then moved back off the IA Riptide and on to the HBC one.
HBC Riptide (no novas) out damages Carni thanks to the fact that it's shooting on turn 1 with double range and larger target selection. It has AP4-5 to make up for 1 point less S on only 4 of its shots. It then has triple the mobility of a Carnifex. It also has an extra wound and a strong ass Invul. Then after all that, it can Nova, pushing its firepower even further, at the risk of Gets Hot. All this for 30 pts.
But hey, wasn't it you who said That even Riptides with IA are useless with a 3+ save.
You are bad at this. Like it or not, The cheese factory that is Riptide will be nerfed in the next Tau release. Maybe if you start being realistic with your opinions on necessary change, you might just get some good karma and be left with something playable. =)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now let me just clarify something - I don't even think with a 3+ save the thing is balanced. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to argue that the Riptide is balanced and would be useless with a 3+ save - it's an unhealthy amount of bias shown towards your army. Try to get a clear perspective and look at how quite undeniably OP it currently is.
Ok, I never ever said the Dakkafex was undercosted, I said overcosted. I think the Dakkafex should be cheaper. It costs too many points because its chasis is overcosted. The Brainleech devorers being a steal helps, but the chassis if overcosted, not under. I don't think I can make this any more clear.
To the IA Riptide, I said that it would be mandatory if the Riptide had a 3+. The HBC would be unplayable, but the IA Riptide would be manageable.
How did you misinterpret what I was saying? And they say exactly what I said and attack me for it?
@Formosa
Please grow up, the goal was to keep this mature.
@Arbiter_Shade
"Is it becasue everything you hear about on the internet?" Is an insult by insinuation.
I don't care if you can't take this argument seriously anymore, because you have obviously not understood what I had written. The 3+AS is terrible for the HBC Riptide, the IA would still be ok and playable. What about the words I am writing do you two fail to understand.
STRAW MAN FALLACY: If you exaggerate or misrepresent my argument to make it easier to attack, you are guilty. Seriously people, grow up a bit and accuratley represent another's argument.
@Galorian
Are we supposed to feel back about Annhilation Barges not being good enough or surviving? Laugable.
Are we supposed to feel back about Annhilation Barges not being good enough or surviving? Laugable.
Way to miss the point...
All those comparisons between the point for point value of the Riptide compared to the undercosted Annihilation Barge completely ignored the fact that in practice Riptides are likely to stay on the board twice as long as Barges and all talk of "sacrificing durability for firepower" apply just as well for the Barge, only that the Barge has to sacrifice over a third of its firepower to have a better chance of not dying that very moment while a Riptide that boosts its firepower only becomes seriously "endangered" somewhere around turn 4-6 (by which point there's a very good chance the Barges are already gone).
All the while the Riptide also happens to be overall faster AND longer ranged.
I don't care if it's immature, it's true, when I use my land speeder vengeance I have to choose between the 3 shots likely to overheat or the large blast and less likely to overheat, so with a 3+ you'd have to do the same, so what, "waaah" my riptide is subject to the rules and weaknesses of everything else that has gets hot... Shame.
We said that with 3+ save and HBC he would still be more, or at least as powerful as anything in his class.
Find me another MC that puts out as much firepower as 8x S6 AP4 + 4x S5 AP5 shots a turn, for 180 points or lower. Then find me one that has the option to make that 12x S6 AP4 shots with rending at the cost of 1 wound every 2 turns (yes, that is factoring in 3+ save), has the mobility of a Riptide and a 5+ Invul save.
You know, never mind that second half, as we BOTH know all that just makes him outlandish. How about just finding me one MC that matches him for basic, no nova, HBC firepower, at his points cost or lower. Should be easy if this makes him so terrible. You said Dakkafex was an UP model, so find me a MC that is closer to Riptides power than the Dakkafex.
I've asked you multiple times to do it. You can't. Because all MC's at this points cost are at a much lower power level than the Riptide. They do not have this sort of firepower available. This is the power level Riptide should be at. You do not understand this, because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OPMC. But all other <180 pt MC's sit at a power level, dare I say it, LOWER THAN HBC RIPTIDE WITH A 3+ ARMOR SAVE. Oh my god, it's frightening isn't it, the concept of not having a ridicuously underpriced killing machine available that cheaply. How do the rest of us even get by!?
But please, feel free to prove me wrong - it's as easy as showing me what the other "balanced" MC's are that can match a HBC Riptide at less than 200 pts. The precedent and balance level for MC's is much lower than you want to admit.
SHUPPET wrote: You aren't reading what anybody else has said.
We said that with 3+ save and HBC he would still be more, or at least as powerful as anything in his class.
Find me another MC that puts out as much firepower as 8x S6 AP4 + 4x S5 AP5 shots a turn, for 180 points or lower. Then find me one that has the option to make that 12x S6 AP4 shots with rending at the cost of 1 wound every 2 turns (yes, that is factoring in 3+ save), has the mobility of a Riptide and a 5+ Invul save.
You know, never mind that second half, as we BOTH know all that just makes him outlandish. How about just finding me one MC that matches him for basic, no nova, HBC firepower, at his points cost or lower. Should be easy if this makes him so terrible. You said Dakkafex was an UP model, so find me a MC that is closer to Riptides power than the Dakkafex.
I've asked you multiple times to do it. You can't. Because all MC's at this points cost are at a much lower power level than the Riptide. They do not have this sort of firepower available. This is the power level Riptide should be at. You do not understand this, because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OPMC. But all other <180 pt MC's sit at a power level, dare I say it, LOWER THAN HBC RIPTIDE WITH A 3+ ARMOR SAVE. Oh my god, it's frightening isn't it, the concept of not having a ridicuously underpriced killing machine available that cheaply. How do the rest of us even get by!?
But please, feel free to prove me wrong - it's as easy as showing me what the other "balanced" MC's are that can match a HBC Riptide at less than 200 pts. The precedent and balance level for MC's is much lower than you want to admit.
Already have done this. The Dreadknight, either with the Heavy Incinerator or less optimally the Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon. T6 2+/5++ 4W, has a S6AP4 Torrent a Flamer and possibly a S7 Rending Large Blast, costs 160 or 200pts, is a Psyker, has built n Psychic Defense, WS5, I4, Ld10, 4 Attack(5on Charge), ATSKNF, and a Force Weapon.
The Dreadknight is less durable T1-3 and is more durable T4-7. It possesses none of the weaknesses of the Riptide and it's only failings are Rate of Fire and range of Weapons as they are designed for different purposes, and it is less mobile. Unlike the Riptide it is a CC monster that handles all but THSS in CC.
I prefer the 160pt HI version. Heck, with a Pt and HI it still costs less than my Riptides.
Seems like a good comparison to me, as finding a direct analog to a unique unit I. The game is impossible. Identical saves, very similar durability, more CC oriented than the ranged Riptide, has many fewer weaknesses vs LD and CC, and excels at killing MCs and light to medium infantry.
Ok, so we've landed on the Dreadknight. Definitely a good place to start a comparison.
The Dreadknight can put out 1 torrent S6 AP4 flamer, which can probably score 3 or 4 hits. I'll let you have the Heavy Psycannon bringing it up to 200 pts as well, giving you a 20 pt advantage. S7 AP4, 1/3 chance of hitting, with BS4 its probably not gunna scatter too far though most the time and still score a few hits, call it average of 5 hits. Am I being fair?
So now, it's matched the HBC Riptides firepower, slightly higher actually... except at 18" range. And only on multiple target units. And what's that about Riptides range? Oh it has literally double the range? Double the movement speed? AND Jump shoot jump?
It's applying its damage from turn 1 onwards. Dreadknight turn 2 if lucky.
Now we factor in that Dreadknight has 1 less wound. So let's give that Riptide 2 free turns of Nova to even the wounds up. Now not only does he get an extra turn or two of shooting, he is taking 12 shots that all have Rending, it OUTSHOOTS the Dreadknight, and can apply its damage to single target units such as other MC's.
Oh, and while that Dreadknight is in the middle of the board in range of everything hostile, and likely not being able to fully stick to cover, guess what the Riptide is doing - sitting at the friendly table edge chilling.
Dreadknight obviously out CC's him - not that he would ever make it to CC with a Riptide, its literally impossible for him to catch him. In fact he's so slow that he often doesn't make it to combat at all. He is a balanced model however because he still brings sensible firepower to make up for his mobility issues. Oh and he's pushing the +200 pt tierwhere Wraithknight resides instead the +100 tier of Riptide, but since it's so close I'll let you have it.
Riptide is just ridiculous. I don't see how anything but extreme bias can lead you to think a 2+ HBC Riptide is balanced for, 180 pts.
SHUPPET wrote: You aren't reading what anybody else has said.
We said that with 3+ save and HBC he would still be more, or at least as powerful as anything in his class.
Find me another MC that puts out as much firepower as 8x S6 AP4 + 4x S5 AP5 shots a turn, for 180 points or lower. Then find me one that has the option to make that 12x S6 AP4 shots with rending at the cost of 1 wound every 2 turns (yes, that is factoring in 3+ save), has the mobility of a Riptide and a 5+ Invul save.
You know, never mind that second half, as we BOTH know all that just makes him outlandish. How about just finding me one MC that matches him for basic, no nova, HBC firepower, at his points cost or lower. Should be easy if this makes him so terrible. You said Dakkafex was an UP model, so find me a MC that is closer to Riptides power than the Dakkafex.
I've asked you multiple times to do it. You can't. Because all MC's at this points cost are at a much lower power level than the Riptide. They do not have this sort of firepower available. This is the power level Riptide should be at. You do not understand this, because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OPMC. But all other <180 pt MC's sit at a power level, dare I say it, LOWER THAN HBC RIPTIDE WITH A 3+ ARMOR SAVE. Oh my god, it's frightening isn't it, the concept of not having a ridicuously underpriced killing machine available that cheaply. How do the rest of us even get by!?
But please, feel free to prove me wrong - it's as easy as showing me what the other "balanced" MC's are that can match a HBC Riptide at less than 200 pts. The precedent and balance level for MC's is much lower than you want to admit.
Already have done this. The Dreadknight, either with the Heavy Incinerator or less optimally the Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon. T6 2+/5++ 4W, has a S6AP4 Torrent a Flamer and possibly a S7 Rending Large Blast, costs 160 or 200pts, is a Psyker, has built n Psychic Defense, WS5, I4, Ld10, 4 Attack(5on Charge), ATSKNF, and a Force Weapon.
The Dreadknight is less durable T1-3 and is more durable T4-7. It possesses none of the weaknesses of the Riptide and it's only failings are Rate of Fire and range of Weapons as they are designed for different purposes, and it is less mobile. Unlike the Riptide it is a CC monster that handles all but THSS in CC.
I prefer the 160pt HI version. Heck, with a Pt and HI it still costs less than my Riptides.
Seems like a good comparison to me, as finding a direct analog to a unique unit I. The game is impossible. Identical saves, very similar durability, more CC oriented than the ranged Riptide, has many fewer weaknesses vs LD and CC, and excels at killing MCs and light to medium infantry.
Also has half the range, far less firepower outside that one time it stumbles onto bunched up infantry, well below half mobility, and that's all assuming the Riptide doesn't use the Nova reactor so it's actually less durable thanks to having one fewer wounds and far more likely to take damage due to being incapable of outrunning our outranging most threats and literally having to walk into incoming fire to do anything.
20pts, Better CC and psychic defenses vs extra wound, double the range, more firepower, better than double the mobility and the ability to majorly boost its own firepower, defenses or mobility each turn as needed by risking a wound.
Somehow I don't think the Dreadknight breaks even here, and IIRC it's generally considered a great model...
I cant because there is no MC as heavily tilted towards shooting as the riptide, he is the only one that does not come with at least moderate CC abilities, with most MCs being CC threats of some level or another.
Find me a single MC in the game nearly as tilted towards shooting as the riptide in the game, and we'll work with him, but there isn't. its like comparing sternguard to terminators in shooting.
Sure, terminators shoot-but its not their selling point. for sternguard it is. (not saying termie's are fairly priced, saying that their price does not come from shooting skills.)
Your dakkafex is the clostest comparison as he is a "mostly shooty non-flying MC" that also uses mid-strength spam. but he ALSO packs a non-negligible CC punch, has fearless, etc. the riptide has his own selling points, but you know what I am talking about, each has his own factors outside shooting.
I could create just as much as a miss by telling you to find a single MC that is WORSE for his cost in CC. there aren't. (at least any playable ones, only ones decked-out in useless wargear.)
Because he simply does not DO CC.
Its just a flawed comparison.
Yes, all other <180 MCs sit at a lower power level then HBC riptide, when they are looked at as pure shooters. but they are NOT pure shooters. none of them. you cannot match his firepower because you pay for other factors he does not have. even the least CC oriented MC, out do the riptide there by far.
"But I wont ever catch it in assault, what does it matter he is bad there?"
Simple, you probably won't assault it unless you are hyper-focused on fast assault. but he will not assault you either, unlike your everyday MC that has the option open for him at any time, even the cheap ones, to assault anything that out-shoots it.
And with a 3+ armor save? again we go back to it? I already shown that he has the technical durability of slightly more then a biker marine with it while maintaining his actual firepower. three of them if you got 50/50 on overcharging and not (fair mid-point to assuming how much it is used under smart choices)
Yea, even with 3+ only he out-shots every other MC. the armor has nothing to do with shooting. its just that with 3+ he just dies WAY too fast for his cost, and desired use.
Oh, and BTW, is not a self wound every 2 turns. its 4.66 in 6, simple math tells you is a wound every 1.28 turns. just saying.
And as a final note, "because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OPMC." made me lose faith in you being rational. you automatically ignore what I say and what I present just because I'm tau and you dislike tau regardless of any facts or reality, you just dislike them because of non-rational reasons. (and its ok, we all got our non-rational emotions)
As already noted, I am not "used to have a ridiculously OP MC", I hardly use riptides. I haven't even built my single riptide yet and only played borrowed and proxies, and never more then one. he's REALLY not a big deal for me. heck, Im not even building him yet partly because I'm waiting to get something that will allow me to do something cool in construction that i value more then the power-boost I can get by quickly pumping him out. (its harsh playing an army when most of the top-tier units in the codex as just not to your liking and the ones you do like are the "decent" to "not really working" range. still trying to excuse my stealthsuits and HRR boradsides back to the army, but they just preform too poorly.)
If we ignore the fact that Riptide can spend the first two turns of the game out of range of most units while still applying his DPS, and the fact that the other MC we compared it to literally has to run directly up the board just to get in range BY turn 2, of anything sitting up the front of DZ (or closer), then yes, I will concede that HBC 2+ Riptide and Dreadknight are at SIMILAR power levels.
However, this is not the case and never will be. On top of this, Riptide is cheaper and has an extra wound. On top of this, you are trying to say that he would be UNPLAYABLE with a 3+ save. lol.
20pts, Better CC and psychic defenses vs extra wound, double the range, more firepower, better than double the mobility and the ability to majorly boost its own firepower, defenses or mobility each turn as needed by risking a wound.
Somehow I don't think the Dreadknight breaks even here, and IIRC it's generally considered a great model...
Pretty much this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For starters, the fact that 6" moving MC's have to make it to assault to apply the only place they can even outdamage a Riptide (who still isn't that bad in assault and more than makes up for lost damage there in extra shooting capability) is not a positive aspect of the other MCs. It's actually a massive weakness they have. You know, weaknesses, the things that balance out a model from just being amazing at everything and overpowered? The fact that Riptide is shooting focused (with 36" range) is just a perfect example of why the Riptide is miles better than them. How is that a good thing for the other MC's lol? This is like when the other guy said the Riptide is worse because he has the OPTION to upgrade his SMS missiles to a Fusion Blaster which won't do be as efficient against infantry... just, lol.
Secondly, you keep saying that I have a bias against Tau.
They were my first army. I played them for three years. I quit playing them because the new Dex was released, and I didn't want to play my codex with a beyond Overpowered model in it, because I didn't want to feel like every loss could have been avoided by taking him (I'm a competitive player), and I didn't want to use an army where I couldn't build with the entire dex at my disposal. I have 4000 pts of Tau sitting on my shelf. Can sort/provide pics if needed. None of this makes me unaware to the fact that people will defend their army to the death, even if they literally have THE MOST OP MODEL IN THE GAME available in it. Me personally being capable of not letting bias cloud my judgement in the situation allowed me to recognise how OP the Riptide was, confirmed after just a game or two, after which I decided it was time to put the dex down. I still bought 1 Riptide just because the model / concept is so cool, I just wish the balance had been better and I could justify playing it.
But nevermind all that - I'm clearly just a jealous and biased Tau hater - I SECRETLY JUST WANT THEM TO FAIL.
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah while the Carnifex isn't bad in CC, there certainly isn't a league of difference between it and the Riptide.
Depends how you pit them.
I'm pretty sure the Carnifex does better against marines
Still, MCs should never be that weak in CC, even their farts are enough to kill a single marine.
It's like Tanks that just take damage... Let me run you over with a Battle Tank and you'll tell me how little it hurts, or just how easy it was to strike it's rear armor / vents / vulnerable points with it zooming past at 120Km/h.
I don't care if they need to overcost everything to make it possible, I just don't get it when a S4 model destroys a tank, or a Riptide gets CC-killed by shooty marines.
BoomWolf wrote: And with a 3+ armor save? again we go back to it? I already shown that he has the technical durability of slightly more then a biker marine with it while maintaining his actual firepower. three of them if you got 50/50 on overcharging and not (fair mid-point to assuming how much it is used under smart choices)
Yea, even with 3+ only he out-shots every other MC. the armor has nothing to do with shooting. its just that with 3+ he just dies WAY too fast for his cost, and desired use.
Your way of counting durability is pretty f**ked up then, since you're first assuming he survives until turn 6 and then bemoaning the fact that after manhandling the opposition for 5 turns unmolested he's suddenly not very durable due to having taken wounds...
BoomWolf wrote: Oh, and BTW, is not a self wound every 2 turns. its 4.66 in 6, simple math tells you is a wound every 1.28 turns. just saying.
So you don't Nova Charge EVERY TURN, just like how realistically an Annihilation Barge would spend most its turns moving at cruising speed and/or Jinking, which loses it more of its firepower than not Nova charging loses the Riptide.
BoomWolf wrote: And as a final note, "because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OPMC." made me lose faith in you being rational. you automatically ignore what I say and what I present just because I'm tau and you dislike tau regardless of any facts or reality, you just dislike them because of non-rational reasons. (and its ok, we all got our non-rational emotions)
As already noted, I am not "used to have a ridiculously OP MC", I hardly use riptides. I haven't even built my single riptide yet and only played borrowed and proxies, and never more then one. he's REALLY not a big deal for me. heck, Im not even building him yet partly because I'm waiting to get something that will allow me to do something cool in construction that i value more then the power-boost I can get by quickly pumping him out. (its harsh playing an army when most of the top-tier units in the codex as just not to your liking and the ones you do like are the "decent" to "not really working" range. still trying to excuse my stealthsuits and HRR boradsides back to the army, but they just preform too poorly.)
The fact you also think fusion suits and plasma suits aren't amazingly good deals by the standards of just about any codex other than Codex: Tau Empire doesn't really support your argument here...
Durability-wise, I only really know about saturation.
To destroy one Tau Riptide (2+/5++) in one turn, I need 60 S6 hits or 45 S7 hits or 9 S8AP1 hits.
Or, 3 points/S6 hit, 4 points/S7 hit, 4 points/S7 ignores cover hit or 20 points / S8AP1 melta hits.
To destroy one Carnifex (3+) in one turn, I need 24 S6 hits or 18 S7 hits.
Or 5.8 points/S6 hit, 7.8 points/S7 hit, 7.8 points/S7 ignores cover hit
To destroy one Jinking Holo Wave Serpent in one turn, I need 54 S6 hits or 27 S7 hits or 9 S7 Ignores Cover hits.
Or 2.4 points/S6 hit, 4.8 points/S7 hit, 14.4 points/S7 Ignores Cover hit.
To destroy one Shooting Holo Wave Serpent in one turn, I need 22 S6 hits or 11S7 hits or 9 S7 Ignores Cover hits.
Or 5.9 points/S6 hit, 12 points/S7 hit, 14.4 points/S7 Ignores Cover hit.
To destroy one WraithKnight in one turn, I need 108 S6 hits or 54S7 hits or 54 S7 Ignores Cover hits or 12 S8AP1 hits
Or 2.2 points/S6 hit, 4.4 points/S7 hit, 4.4 points/S7 Ignores Cover hit, 20 points /S8AP1 hit
That's comparing with one of the so-called "most resilient units" in the game.
I'm tired so you can run the Serpent numbers for S8AP1 meltas.
So basically, the Riptide is more tanky than a Jinking Holo Wave Serpent, (except on S6 shots by about 16%), and it easily does more damage than a not-Jinking Holo Wave Serpent, with an enabling unit that boosts it directly rather than 5 lousy DAs and will still be useful when the Riptide dies.
When comparing with the Wraith Knight, the WK is 33% more tanky against S6, 10% less against S7 and equal against S8AP1.
The WK has solid weapon options, either two S10AP2 distort at BS4, or triple small blast S6AP2 ... slightly better than large blast S8AP2 against terminators, much worse against armor. As the Wraith Knight does cost 33% more naked, and has expensive upgrades (10/40 for combos no better than the base weapon, 15/20/20 for two basic weapons), I don't know which one is better, they're both monsters.
Considering the WS is considered competitive and Wraith Knight OP, that clearly makes the Riptide OP for being at least 20% better than the WS, and in the same league as the WK.
Those numbers aren't counting that neither Wave Serpents or Wraithknights are taking damage due to Nova Charges and gets hot though.
For example, a single wound from a Nova charge changes it from:
60 S6 hits to 48 hits or 3.75 points/hit
45 S7 hits to 36 hits or 5 points/hit
9 S8 hits to 7.2 hits or 25 points/hit
Basically a 20% drop in durability from itself, which in the Nova case also reduces it's fire output along with reducing it's resilience.
You can't only compare Shooting vs a Dreadknight when the Riptide is almost solely focused on shooting, whereas the Dreadknight is designed for CC. They also have different shooting target priorities. Also, the Dreadknight has never been considered a stellar competitive choice. In GK's glory days, 5th ed, I was the only person I saw even field one Dreadknight at Ard Boyz Prelims, Regionals, or the Midwest Finals. Dreadknights were never consider OP by competitive Standards, not even close.
Over the course of a game when compared to a Dreadknight the Riptide is more Durable ~T1-2, equally durable ~T2-3, and less to significantly less Durable ~T3-7. The Riptide was designed to use its Nova Reactor, otherwise is a very inefficient use of points for shooting in a Tau army.
You can't only compare only the durability of a Riptide(without Nova) against a Wave Serpent or Wraithknight and call it an effective comparison. Its only relevant to Durability. And we may as well throw the Dreadknight in that comparision because point for point his base configuration is more durable than all of them. I guess that makes Dreadknights OP and Wave Serpents, Wraithknight, and Riptides more balance... you can't cherry pick your data.
You can't ignore CC, Wraithknight dominate CC vs just about anything in the Game and has S10 AP2 Distort ranged weapons. Dreadknights dominate CC as well, even against Wraithknights! You can't say, well Dreadknight vs Riptide, the Dreadkngiht will never catch it. YOU DO NOT DIRECTLY COMPARE TWO UNITS FIGHTING EACH OTHER IN A VACUUM. You have to use common battlefield scenarios. For an example of why you don't, if we want to compare a Dreadknight and Riptide in a vacuum, the Dreadknight only chooses the PT for its upgrade, and if the vast majority of the simulations it will win. The Riptide doesn't have enough firepower to down it in one turn of shooting, and a very low chance in two. Dreadknight Shunts T1. Almost guaranteed assault T2. And in the vast majority of the conflicts it will either ID with its force weapon or Sweep the Riptide. These kinds of short sighted one dimensional comparisons are pointless.
You can't ignore Offense in these comparision either. Yes, a Riptide is more durable than a Wave Serpent, but its 3 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover hits and 4/6 S6 AP4(Rending) hits per turn don't hold a candle to the Wave Serpents 3.6 S6 and 4 S7 Ignores Cover hits per turn and possibly 2.7 S6 Rending Hits as well and its at a longer range as well. Oh, and its a Transport, and it almost always will have Objective Secured.
How can you compare only one single point, ignoring the rest and draw such rash conclusions? A single point of comparison without taking in account all possible and likely battlefield scenarios you cannot possibly come to a valid and substantiated conclusion.
Savageconvoy wrote: Those numbers aren't counting that neither Wave Serpents or Wraithknights are taking damage due to Nova Charges and gets hot though.
For example, a single wound from a Nova charge changes it from:
60 S6 hits to 48 hits or 3.75 points/hit
45 S7 hits to 36 hits or 5 points/hit
9 S8 hits to 7.2 hits or 25 points/hit
Basically a 20% drop in durability from itself, which in the Nova case also reduces it's fire output along with reducing it's resilience.
Without using the nova and unsupported it's BS3 with 8 S6 AP4 shots and 4 twin-linked S5 shots.
So right off the bat we have about 4 S6 hits and 3 S5 hits.
The Waveserpent can support it's own shooting with the scatter laser, which is already twin-linked.
So 4 BS4 twinlinked S6 shots gets about 3.46 hits.
Which then gets D6+1 S7 shots twin-linked at BS4, which will net on average about 4 S7 shots.
So... yeah. Can't say that I'll agree with that on the HBC.
Savageconvoy wrote: Without using the nova and unsupported it's BS3 with 8 S6 AP4 shots and 4 twin-linked S5 shots.
So right off the bat we have about 4 S6 hits and 3 S5 hits.
The Waveserpent can support it's own shooting with the scatter laser, which is already twin-linked.
So 4 BS4 twinlinked S6 shots gets about 3.46 hits.
Which then gets D6+1 S7 shots twin-linked at BS4, which will net on average about 4 S7 shots.
So... yeah. Can't say that I'll agree with that on the HBC.
I think it's more relevant to talk about competitive setups for both units though, and then maybe take a second look at point costs, damage and resilience using realistic scenarios.
Note if you want to work the numbers out that a Shuriken Cannon has 3 shots with Bladestorm (AP2 on 6 to hit) and that both upgrades (TL Scat laser, Shuriken cannon) cost another 15 points for 145 points total, plus minimum 65 points for the unit that takes the WS (5 rather uninteresting DA quite often).
We were talking about the base for the Riptide. We've already established that the IA is undercosted, but the HBC version is much more reasonably priced.
I only count the Scatter laser since it's a cheap upgrade that lets it move and shoot while buffing it's accuracy without reliance on outside support. The Riptide has no option to buff it's shooting performance on it's own.
Also I don't count the unit inside since they're able to act independently of the transport and can perform very useful tasks.
You can't only compare Shooting vs a Dreadknight when the Riptide is almost solely focused on shooting, whereas the Dreadknight is designed for CC. They also have different shooting target priorities.
Because doing all your damage in CC is easily balanced with doing it all in shooting isn't it? Especially when you have6" move, no mobility, and 12" range on your template? As compared to 12" move, 36" range, JSJ? YAY GOING TO BE SO EASY TO APPLY THAT CLOSE COMBAT DAMAGE WHEREVER I WANT, DEFINITELY NO MORE CHALLENGING THAN GETTING A SHOT OFF WITH RIPTIDE AMIRITE. THIS IS NOT BIAS. NO, NOT AT ALL. /sarcasm.
Over the course of a game when compared to a Dreadknight the Riptide is more Durable ~T1-2, equally durable ~T2-3, and less to significantly less Durable ~T3-7. The Riptide was designed to use its Nova Reactor, otherwise is a very inefficient use of points for shooting in a Tau army.
This is just stupid, as the point is that he outshoots everything in his points cost before even using his Nova. He does not need to use it to be worth his points. Then you want to factor in how great the Nova is after and the fact that it is an effecient payoff, he is absolutely slowed levels of shooting OP. Why should Riptide have better shooting than absolutely everything in its weight class, on top of 36" range, double movespeed speed, JSJ, being more durable, and the option to trade that durability Nova, all while sitting on the very back of the board out of harms way, and the only trade off being not having to slowly move 6" a turn till he gets into Close Combat range with the ideal target, to apply damage that likely isn't even better than his shooting? (I'm talking about if had had other MC's CC attacks here FYI not his own).
He shouldn't, you are just being ridiculously biased and cannot imagine having to have a balanced MC.
Also, the Dreadknight has never been considered a stellar competitive choice.
Oh so now the Dreadknight is underpowered as well. Is there any other MC in Riptides weight bracket that is not underpowered by your definition?
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe its not EVERY SINGLE OTHER MC that is underpowered, and that it is just the Riptide who is OVERPOWERED? Possibility?
SHUPPET wrote: Oh so now the Dreadknight is underpowered as well.
Is there any other MC in Riptides weight bracket that is not underpowered by your definition?
Yeah, that was just about the point where I went "f**k that, no use arguing with someone who's so biased he'd consider the Dreadknight underpowered"...
SHUPPET wrote: Have you ever stopped to think that maybe its not EVERY SINGLE OTHER MC that is underpowered, and that it is just the Riptide who is OVERPOWERED? Possibility?
Hey, it's not EVERY SINGLE other MC- there's always the Wraithknight...
Well that's plain idiotic? Every man and his dog knows the tide and eldar are a tad ott and it's easy to fix, but that doesn't mean all other mc's are crap, just that certain ones need a nerf.
Formosa wrote: Am I the only one who thinks the 120pt basic Fex is perfectly costed?
I know it's not Stella but it's the right cost I feel.
On the topic of mc's that are grossly undercosted, the tomb spider is waaaaay undercosted compared to every other mc
Honestly, I feel like fexes are over costed if you want to run them in any variation other than a Dakkafex. In 6th and now 7th edition T6 3+ 4W is considered squishy and rather easy for a lot of armies to kill at range. A 6" move WS3 3A base, on a fairly easy to kill chassis just doesn't cut it anymore. Regeneration helps a lot but drives the point cost up substantially.
Also, I just looked up the Tomb Spider as I just started collecting Necrons and holy crap, underpriced is an understatement!
Thing I feel with the Fex as is, is that if it was any cheaper it would be easily spamable, if it was say 100pts, then you would see 9 in every nid list, at its current cost it is dead centre between cheap enough and not too overcosted, that says balanced to me.
Formosa wrote: Thing I feel with the Fex as is, is that if it was any cheaper it would be easily spamable, if it was say 100pts, then you would see 9 in every nid list, at its current cost it is dead centre between cheap enough and not too overcosted, that says balanced to me.
Having finally run up against a Tyranid player that actually used MCs, my thoughts on it are that GW expected Tyranids to be run as a carpet of little bugs with about 2-3 big ones for synapse and other specific things. They couldn't make them too durable, since any army going up against them needs enough firepower to mow down all the little things, thus sacrificing their hard hitting anti-MC tools. I made the opposite mistake since my usual list was more anti hard target. The MCs folded like tissue paper, but I didn't have enough shots to take down all the hormagaunts and I got swarmed. Multiple kinds of unit selections actually working to compliment each other? What heresy is this?
Somehow as I argue that the Dreadknight is appropriately costed and never was OP, you seem to take my argument as saying the Dreadknight is over costed. My entire argument was stating that it is appropriately costed, as I've been comparing it with the a Riptide for pages. How have you guys misunderstand over and over again.
I have been arguing that the Dreadknight is appropriately costed as is the base Riptide. I counter your ridiculously infantile durability argument, and no matter what I say the group think seems to hear whatever it wants. It's like talking to a wall, and all you respond with is one dimensional arguments while discounting my valid counterpoints.
I'll make this very clear.
Here is a list of MC and how I believe they are costed... And here is how I would define those cost levels.
HBC Riptide: Appropriate
IA Riptide: Undercosted
HWC Wraithcannon: Undercosted
Sword/Shield Wraithknight: Overcosted
Suncannon/Shield/SL Wraithknight: Appropriate
Avatar: Overcosted
Dreadknight: Appropriate
PT Dreadknight: Appropriate
C'Tan Shard: Grossly Overcosted
TMCs: Overcosted(General)
TFMCs: Appropriate to Overcosted
Bloodthirster: Appropriate
Lord of Change: Appropriate
Great Unclean One: Appropriate
Keeper of secrets: Overcosted
Daemon Prince: Overcosted
Wings Daemon Prince: Appropriate
Talos: Appropriate
Chronos: Appropriate
In 6th FMC upgrades were horrendously undercosted, with the switch to 7th they are still good buys and still offset the Daemon Princes Overcosted chassis.
It flat out boils down to that the T6 3+ MC Chassis is just not as durable as GW intended or makes players pay for. Many MCs based off of this chassis are Overcosted. Some have upgrades like the DakkaFex which make them appropriately costed .
Gone are the Reinforced Chitten Bonded Skeleton Extended Carapace T7 5W 2+ Carnifexes of yesteryear. They would be appropriately costed today. GW erroneously thinks that T6 and a 3+ are still worth the same they used to be back when we shot a couple of Lascannons per turn at each other, they are not and it clearly shows. If you disagree, just run a naked Carnifex instead of a Dakkafex. If you think the Dakkafex is a better deal and appropriately costed, then the base Fex chassis is Overcosted, which it is.
About a nonNova HBC being amazing offense, it's not. It ends up being terribly underwhelming compared to other firepower options available to the Tau. It's almost mandatory to Novacharge an HBC as to many turns with diminished firepower is detrimental.
We just ended 6th edition and are now in 7th, codices have to adapt to the new edition, older codices often lose something. Look at most of the 6th Ed Codices with the exception of DA(Sacrificial Lamb), CSM(Overcosted PA and Underwhelming options), and Tyranids(Many Ptoblems, Overcosted T6 3+ MCs not withstanding), they were all pretty well balanced among each other. Eldar, Tau, SM, CD, Necron(Wrote for 6thish), AM...
Now we will see what the first 7th Ed codex will bring.
Tyranids codex is an overwhelming flop, Overcosted MCs did not help, not in the slightest.
It came to me not long ago that, with the rebuffing of vehicles through the new damage chart, a t6 3+ MC is roughly the equivilant of an AV10 vehicle. The often talked of "dakkafex" is roughly the equivilant of a TL-AC Razorback.
Yeah, I said it; a 150 point MC is roughly the same as a 75 point dedicated transport. I'd wager the razorback is better. 4 TL-S6 rending shots at BS4 are waaay better than even 12 TL-S6 BS3 shots. Even then, the Razorback has that nice AV11 on its front/side arcs. On top of that they get objective secured when taken by a troop choice.
Aside from the riptide and the eldar MC's, most other MC's outside of silly tzeench shenanigans are hilariously easy to kill. A carnifex/talos/swarmlord will, out of cover, be killed by 6 krak missiles (basically a devistator squad or equivilant) outright, or I think it's like 10 shots (not hits) if in cover. Sure, you can "explode" a vehicle with ap1/2, but you can also ID any MC, as to my knowledge the only one with in-built EW is Be'lakor. And since nearly every army has some way to ID fairly reliably, be it iron arm'd libarians for SM, or eldar through distortion, I'd say that almost every MC outside of riptides and wraith-MC's are hilariously overcosted.
A carnifex should -start- at about 75 points given it's current stats and abilities. Hive tyrants are only "worth" their points because of how rediculously hard GW punishes people for playing nids by way or synapse/IB.
Greater daemons cost is usually only offset by psychic ability. Would fatey or LoC be nearly as well recieved as they are if they lacked divination or the strong witchfires they get from the chance discipine?
Would people use GUO's so often were not for iron arm (though t7 is a huuuge boon, yay bolter immunity!)
And what is often seen as the worst GD? Bloodthirsters. Because they are T6 3+ MC that rely almost entirely on assault with no psychic ability. Yes, they are technicallyFMC, but if you want to use one to it's full extent it just ends up being an overcosted jump MC.
Most DP are only taken for their shooting or psychic capability. Lash princes exist for a reason, and I occasionally hear about tzeench or nurgle winged princes to act as backups in case their LoC gets dropped, or as an extra source of endurance.
Honestly the only "popular" melee MC is the CSM AoBF prince, mostly because he has that magical S8 as well as a gakton of attacks. Even then at around 300 points he better kill at least 2 squads to even hope to make is points investment back. Though at t5 he is about as survivable as a squad of SM bikes.
I still think that any MC with a t<7 should have access to one of the following: a 2+ save, permanent +1 toughness, IWND or a "front facing" invuln against shooting, kind of like how the Knight titan works.
Formosa wrote: Thing I feel with the Fex as is, is that if it was any cheaper it would be easily spamable, if it was say 100pts, then you would see 9 in every nid list, at its current cost it is dead centre between cheap enough and not too overcosted, that says balanced to me.
Having finally run up against a Tyranid player that actually used MCs, my thoughts on it are that GW expected Tyranids to be run as a carpet of little bugs with about 2-3 big ones for synapse and other specific things. They couldn't make them too durable, since any army going up against them needs enough firepower to mow down all the little things, thus sacrificing their hard hitting anti-MC tools. I made the opposite mistake since my usual list was more anti hard target. The MCs folded like tissue paper, but I didn't have enough shots to take down all the hormagaunts and I got swarmed. Multiple kinds of unit selections actually working to compliment each other? What heresy is this?
Slight problem with your reasoning there: Horde is, in fact, the least competitive way to run Tyranids that doesn't involve Lictors or Pyrovores.
Savageconvoy wrote: We were talking about the base for the Riptide. We've already established that the IA is undercosted, but the HBC version is much more reasonably priced.
I only count the Scatter laser since it's a cheap upgrade that lets it move and shoot while buffing it's accuracy without reliance on outside support. The Riptide has no option to buff it's shooting performance on it's own.
Also I don't count the unit inside since they're able to act independently of the transport and can perform very useful tasks.
That's a very dishonest and worthless comparison.
The undercosted IA is part of the Riptide like the overcosted Suncannon is part of the Wraith Knight, both play a major role in the balance and should not be ignored.
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StarHunter25 wrote: It came to me not long ago that, with the rebuffing of vehicles through the new damage chart, a t6 3+ MC is roughly the equivilant of an AV10 vehicle. The often talked of "dakkafex" is roughly the equivilant of a TL-AC Razorback.
Yeah, I said it; a 150 point MC is roughly the same as a 75 point dedicated transport. I'd wager the razorback is better. 4 TL-S6 rending shots at BS4 are waaay better than even 12 TL-S6 BS3 shots. Even then, the Razorback has that nice AV11 on its front/side arcs. On top of that they get objective secured when taken by a troop choice.
I thought about that too, but I have to disagree.
1. Saturation shots do not have the AP to hurt 3+
2. Fusion hurts vehicles way more than MCs.
3. ID is nowhere as prevalent as fusion or S8+
4. an AV10 vehicle will be taken down in less than 6 S6 shots without AP.
5. that's exactly why the Riptide is a problem, you just can't penetrate it.
The undercosted IA is NOT a part of the riptide tough, its an optional upgrade, and as such the riptide's cost when its NOT taken should no be reflected on it.
The IA, as it is, should cost about 30 points, if even exist. but that's a whole other story there, and not relevant to the point we made that the riptide WITHOUT the IA is reasonably priced.
Nobody is arguing about the riptide WITH the IA, so stop referring to it. for the sake of this debate there is no such upgrade.
We are talking abot the HBC tide, nothing else.
Yeah I do agree with BoomWolf, the debate isn't about whether the IA is overpowered I think everyone agrees if it is. At the moment it's just arguing about whether Riptide would be balanced if they nerfed him by taking away the IA (which he obviously still wouldn't be) and also if giving him a 3+ is enough to bring him down to the level of other <200 pts MC's. Which I doubt it would be, but it would be an improvement at least.
He'd still be the absolute strongest model of his class, without contest.
And being that having the bulk of your damage in shooting rather than assault, outclasses doing it the other way around in every single way possible, nevermind the fact that nearly all the other MC's don't even have the mobility to apply their close ranged DPS, I'd say that makes you pretty OP.
But theres no point arguing it with you. You will never let go of your cheese machine or admit that its ridiiculously OP, and so be it. Bias is a hell of a drug.
What part in the five or so times I mentioned I don't even PLAY more then a single riptide, and even that nearly solely in tournaments (where LoD show up on the other side of the field)
How can I be biased towards wanting to keep doing something I do not do anyway?
Because you don't like people ragging on your army, because you like having the option of Riptide there just in case, because you are lying about not playing them, because you don't like the idea that maybe he is OP and the fact that you lost while playing him means you aren't as good as you think you are, because you have never actually played against Riptides and haven't actually seen what they can do, because you want Tau to be more respected as a challenging race to play, because you care more about your monetary investment into that one Riptide than you do about balancing the game, because you are a contrarian by nature and enjoy being on the opposite side of the majority to make yourself feel special
Pick any number of these, how on earth would I know how you are so biased towards it, you tell me. Those are all just speculations that I'm sure I'm not the only person making, all I can tell is that you aren't willing to approach this from a neutral standpoint and admit that even HBC R-Tide is in a league of its own compared to its peers, because apparently 6" move speed + assault firepower is a fair equivalent to 36" gun range + jump pack move + Jump-Shoot-Jump movements and they will most definitely apply the same amount of damage if they have powerfists amirite.
I don't think you can consider any unit separately from its options.
If you want to compare different versions of units, go ahead, but if it's going to be about the unit in general, it makes sense to take the most optimized setup, be it bare minimum or IA + markers.
That the problem mostly lays with the IA and that a non-IA Riptide may not be undercosted is something that still hasn't been shown (I haven't seen any dakka numbers yet), and that doesn't prevent the Riptide from being undercosted because it has access to an undercosted option.
It's very much like the Dakkafex is better costed than other Carnifex variants.
Show me the numbers for HBCtide and IAtide, and then we can start a discussion.
The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.
Are they so over the top that you can simply spam riptides and win every game? I would argue no, not by a long shot. That said, facing two riptides with IA, skyfire and interceptor is no pushover. And it would quickly get tiresome in a friendly setting.
A unit can not be examined in a vacuum, and I think that in order to answer whether a unit and in extension its codex is too good, you first need to decide upon a codex with a power level that is appropriate. It is obvious that the different codexes are all over the place in this aspect. Are Tau in a good place? It is impossible to say without deciding what to compare and contrast against. They have neither the strongest and far from the weakest codex around.
If we compare them to Space Marines or Daemons, we probably come to the conclusion the codex is fine and that Tau need their Riptide and then some.
If we compare them to Dark Angels or Tyranids the Tau codex comes forth as too strong.
I think it is fair to hold the opinion that your codex should be able to compete with the best codexes out there, and that the Tau codex and Riptide by extension is fine. I also think that most codexes should be made stronger as a consequence. Ideally, the game would be more balanced.
It is impossible to say if the Riptide is too good without agreeing on what power level is appropriate. I think that a really tough shooting MC is conceptually fine, though.
How is it impossible to tell if Tau, the second strongest Codex in the game, are in a good place?
SHUPPET wrote: Who are pretty undisputedly viewed as a competitive choice for Tyranids ^
INB4 "but Tyranids don't see competitive play so he can't be balanced"
Exactly, Exocrines are used competitively, while Riptides trump them in range, firepower, durability, manoeuvrability and have the added benefits of a secondary weapon system and access to a much wider range range of useful upgrades.
Either the Riptide is underpriced or the Exocrine should be MUCH cheaper than it currently is.
PrinceRaven wrote: How is it impossible to tell if Tau, the second strongest Codex in the game, are in a good place?
I would argue that they have the fourth strongest codex in the game, after Daemons, Space Marines and Eldar. Not sure in exactly what order since the new edition dropped. It has been a while since Tau lists got into the top 8 of tournaments. So yeah, I think you need to decide on what level a codex should be at. Sure, there are other codexes that have it worse, but that is telling just as little as saying that there are better races out there as well. In order to say if something is in a good place and to what standard the Riptide should be adjusted to, I think you need to first define what a good place is. That there are even stronger or far worse things out there is irrelevant.
Ratflinger wrote: The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.
No, they shouldn't.
The Riptide is a walker and should've been written as such.
morgoth wrote: Show me the numbers for HBCtide and IAtide, and then we can start a discussion.
Percentage of effective firepower per point for a Nova charging "naked" Riptide compared to an Annihilation Barge firing at full BS:
Now let's assume the Tau player has a lick of sense and picks when he uses to Nova charge based on efficiency (any case where his effectiveness per point when using Nova charge compared to a full BS Barge would be higher than his effectiveness per point when not Nova charging compared to a snap firing Barge, in essence assuming that in any case he opts to sacrifice durability for firepower the Barge does as well):
The Barge would still be a fair bit more efficient in damage output against most targets in cover (though by less than 20% in 8 cases, 5 of which are rather common), while against targets out of cover it manages to outperform the Barge in 7 cases, nearly matches firepower point for point (90-100%) in another 4 cases and manages to stay between 80-90% in another 3. Overall it manages to be in the same ballpark point for point in terms of damage output in 22 out of 48 cases (and that's assuming the Barge can afford not to cruise or Jink as often as the Riptide can afford to use the Nova Charge, which isn't likely).
The Barge however is known to be substantially undercosted, is less mobile even when cruising (in fact it often has to cruise on turn 1 just to get in range), has 2/3 the range and is far less durable, in my experience rarely surviving past the mid-game and often dying for first blood on turn 1 while the Riptide usually gets to keep applying its firepower throughout the entire game more or less unmolested.
PrinceRaven wrote: How is it impossible to tell if Tau, the second strongest Codex in the game, are in a good place?
I would argue that they have the fourth strongest codex in the game, after Daemons, Space Marines and Eldar. Not sure in exactly what order since the new edition dropped. It has been a while since Tau lists got into the top 8 of tournaments. So yeah, I think you need to decide on what level a codex should be at. Sure, there are other codexes that have it worse, but that is telling just as little as saying that there are better races out there as well. In order to say if something is in a good place and to what standard the Riptide should be adjusted to, I think you need to first define what a good place is. That there are even stronger or far worse things out there is irrelevant.
Wait... you think Tau are worse than SM and Daemons?
No way at all. SM are mid-tier, Tau are way better. Sure, Daemons got a boost with summoning but psypowers took a hit in general, they are still 3rd. Tau hose summon-daemons with their firepower, and that was with their 1 riptide failing to novacharge 3 turns in a row and taking a bomber...
1 race is better that Tau, Eldar. Daemons are a close 3rd, but Tau are still 2nd.
Also, how is the fact that there are worse things out there irrelevant? I mean, if they are worse and fairly priced, sure that's fine, but if they are worse compared to the Riptide and cost MORE, that's a problem... and right now that basically everything as the Riptide is under priced.
A unit can not be examined in a vacuum, and I think that in order to answer whether a unit and in extension its codex is too good, you first need to decide upon a codex with a power level that is appropriate. It is obvious that the different codexes are all over the place in this aspect. Are Tau in a good place? It is impossible to say without deciding what to compare and contrast against. They have neither the strongest and far from the weakest codex around.
Most of these armies as a whole are not really that OP... Tau would be balanced just fine without Riptide (if still a very strong codex). SM are pretty middling but have a lot of options and can definitely compete. I have no problem with their level of power being the top of the tiers, since they give fun games and are fun from OP or uncounterable. Daemons relys on gimmicks, last edition its 2++ re-rollable, this edition its Summoning, there is really only one or two aspects broken on an otherwise balanced Dex. I think Eldar is the main exception to this, where you can't really take out anything specific to avoid it having OP units. Wave Serpents, SeerCouncil, JetSeers, the jetbikes in general, WraithKnight, its just a ridiculous codex. Compare that to the other end of the spectrum, or even some of the more balanced armies. Necron's are very powerful, but not too much so - I like this dex. IG is in the same boat. Where the coin falls flat is obviously Orks & the SM sub-dexes, BA and SW are not in a good position, and DA aren't much further ahead. The Tyranid codex is terrible written but still has options, the power level isn't terrible, similar story to CSM, and even Sisters can compete but need better writing x1000, and all could do with slight buffs. Daemons (with the gimmicks removed) could use some balancing as well. DE are well written but definitely need an upgrade, while everything is balanced internally, against other armies the glass cannon army sure has a lot of glass but is really starting to lack on Cannon... needs a bit more badass weaponry.
I know I've probably forgot someone, but the statement I'm making is this - while it can first appear that you know, "which codex is the power level we call balanced, this is impossible to argue!" looking at the ones with good internal balance its pretty clear they all sit at a pretty similar level, the same one Tau would be at without an OP Riptide. Tau's internal balance is terrible because Riptide outshines everything, in absolutely any codex. It's the only unit that could even make Eldar take an ally (except for Beastpack but you know, he was just a component of a silly Deathstar combo). Getting to Eldar, does not have great internal balance - while it's worst units are still matching some codex's best, it has Wave Serpents & Wraithknights on one hand and gak like Falcons and the Avatar on the other - and now while neither of them are that bad in comparison to other codex's equivalent units, there is a world of difference between them and their competitors in their own dex. These guys need the power level turned down, they are on another tier to every other army and are obviously not the precedent to go with just because they are the strongest.
Also, how is the fact that there are worse things out there irrelevant? I mean, if they are worse and fairly priced, sure that's fine, but if they are worse compared to the Riptide and cost MORE, that's a problem... and right now that basically everything as the Riptide is under priced.
My point is that you first need to define what is fairly priced before you declare something underpriced, overpriced, underpowered or overpowered. There has to be a standard that works as a basis for comparison. I do not dispute the fact that the Riptide is a really good unit and one of the best units in the Tau codex. I do dispute the fact that Tau is the competatively strongest codex at the moment or even top 3. I think that every codex should be able to compete for top spots. Currently that is not so.
What should the golden standard of power level be? At the level of Tau? A bit higher? A bit lower? I can not answer that. I do however think that you need the standard to be defined. You can certainly compare units, and you can see the differences between them. There is still a need to define the standard of what is appropriate for the results to tell you which one of them are fairly priced or unfairly priced.
Ratflinger wrote: The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.
No, they shouldn't.
The Riptide is a walker and should've been written as such.
morgoth wrote: Show me the numbers for HBCtide and IAtide, and then we can start a discussion.
Percentage of effective firepower per point for a Nova charging "naked" Riptide compared to an Annihilation Barge firing at full BS:
Now let's assume the Tau player has a lick of sense and picks when he uses to Nova charge based on efficiency (any case where his effectiveness per point when using Nova charge compared to a full BS Barge would be higher than his effectiveness per point when not Nova charging compared to a snap firing Barge, in essence assuming that in any case he opts to sacrifice durability for firepower the Barge does as well):
The Barge would still be a fair bit more efficient in damage output against most targets in cover (though by less than 20% in 8 cases, 5 of which are rather common), while against targets out of cover it manages to outperform the Barge in 7 cases, nearly matches firepower point for point (90-100%) in another 4 cases and manages to stay between 80-90% in another 3. Overall it manages to be in the same ballpark point for point in terms of damage output in 22 out of 48 cases (and that's assuming the Barge can afford not to cruise or Jink as often as the Riptide can afford to use the Nova Charge, which isn't likely).
The Barge however is known to be substantially undercosted, is less mobile even when cruising (in fact it often has to cruise on turn 1 just to get in range), has 2/3 the range and is far less durable, in my experience rarely surviving past the mid-game and often dying for first blood on turn 1 while the Riptide usually gets to keep applying its firepower throughout the entire game more or less unmolested.
Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?
Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?
A unit can not be examined in a vacuum, and I think that in order to answer whether a unit and in extension its codex is too good, you first need to decide upon a codex with a power level that is appropriate. It is obvious that the different codexes are all over the place in this aspect. Are Tau in a good place? It is impossible to say without deciding what to compare and contrast against. They have neither the strongest and far from the weakest codex around.
Most of these armies as a whole are not really that OP... Tau would be balanced just fine without Riptide (if still a very strong codex). SM are pretty middling but have a lot of options and can definitely compete. I have no problem with their level of power being the top of the tiers, since they give fun games and are fun from OP or uncounterable. Daemons relys on gimmicks, last edition its 2++ re-rollable, this edition its Summoning, there is really only one or two aspects broken on an otherwise balanced Dex. I think Eldar is the main exception to this, where you can't really take out anything specific to avoid it having OP units. Wave Serpents, SeerCouncil, JetSeers, the jetbikes in general, WraithKnight, its just a ridiculous codex. Compare that to the other end of the spectrum, or even some of the more balanced armies. Necron's are very powerful, but not too much so - I like this dex. IG is in the same boat. Where the coin falls flat is obviously Orks & the SM sub-dexes, BA and SW are not in a good position, and DA aren't much further ahead. The Tyranid codex is terrible written but still has options, the power level isn't terrible, similar story to CSM, and even Sisters can compete but need better writing x1000, and all could do with slight buffs. Daemons (with the gimmicks removed) could use some balancing as well. DE are well written but definitely need an upgrade, while everything is balanced internally, against other armies the glass cannon army sure has a lot of glass but is really starting to lack on Cannon... needs a bit more badass weaponry.
I know I've probably forgot someone, but the statement I'm making is this - while it can first appear that you know, "which codex is the power level we call balanced, this is impossible to argue!" looking at the ones with good internal balance its pretty clear they all sit at a pretty similar level, the same one Tau would be at without an OP Riptide. Tau's internal balance is terrible because Riptide outshines everything, in absolutely any codex. It's the only unit that could even make Eldar take an ally (except for Beastpack but you know, he was just a component of a silly Deathstar combo). Getting to Eldar, does not have great internal balance - while it's worst units are still matching some codex's best, it has Wave Serpents & Wraithknights on one hand and gak like Falcons and the Avatar on the other - and now while neither of them are that bad in comparison to other codex's equivalent units, there is a world of difference between them and their competitors in their own dex. These guys need the power level turned down, they are on another tier to every other army and are obviously not the precedent to go with just because they are the strongest.
You're really biased against the Eldar, show me where they touched your army.
morgoth wrote: Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?
To show why the basic platform itself is underpriced even without considering the massive buffing and optional upgrades it can get in codex.
morgoth wrote: Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?
A Barge that evades can still snap-fire the following turn. To be extra fair I made the calculation under the assumption that any time the Riptide would prioritize survivability over damage output so would the Barge (which slants things significantly as the Barge is far more likely to cruise or evade than the Riptide is to avoid using the Nova Reactor).
morgoth wrote: Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?
To show why the basic platform itself is underpriced even without considering the massive buffing and optional upgrades it can get in codex.
morgoth wrote: Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?
A Barge that evades can still snap-fire the following turn. To be extra fair I made the calculation under the assumption that any time the Riptide would prioritize survivability over damage output so would the Barge (which slants things significantly as the Barge is far more likely to cruise or evade than the Riptide is to avoid using the Nova Reactor).
I still don't think presenting anything but realistic numbers can make sense.
I don't know what options would be taken on that barge or that Riptide, but without the options, both are just straw men and not the real deal we're supposed to be arguing about.
Ratflinger wrote: The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.
No, they shouldn't.
The Riptide is a walker and should've been written as such.
By that logic our crisis suits should be light walkers. They experimented with that when tau first came out, at AV10 they were worthless and AV11 they were broken because of the sheer amount of them we could field. Might be different now days, but quite frankly i would enjoy having them be walkers - more than half my army immune to small arms fire? sure!
Dreadknight was a walker that classified as an MC long before the riptide. Both look far too nimble and agile to be a walker, including the newer MC the Wraithknight. An exosuit best describes them, which is an extension of their body not a vehicle.
I have no such bias, how is Eldar different to any other opponent I face? The fact that I do not play these armies excludes me from bias, and allows me to recognise the most OP one. Here's a hint - it's Eldar.
Your statistics page says the same thing.
On the other hand, you as an Eldar player seem to have strong bias towards it, and constantly claim they are underpowered, or at least not OP. You barely have a post (in any thread) where you don't make some comparison to Wave Serpents and express how overrated you think they are. You even did it in this thread and its completely offtopic lol.
Even factoring in Tau's Riptide, Eldar is the strongest army in the game. Like it or not, its severely overpowered. It takes a lot to make the army with the most broken unit in the game look subpar.
morgoth wrote: Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?
To show why the basic platform itself is underpriced even without considering the massive buffing and optional upgrades it can get in codex.
morgoth wrote: Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?
A Barge that evades can still snap-fire the following turn. To be extra fair I made the calculation under the assumption that any time the Riptide would prioritize survivability over damage output so would the Barge (which slants things significantly as the Barge is far more likely to cruise or evade than the Riptide is to avoid using the Nova Reactor).
I still don't think presenting anything but realistic numbers can make sense.
I don't know what options would be taken on that barge or that Riptide, but without the options, both are just straw men and not the real deal we're supposed to be arguing about.
The Annihilation Barge has only one wargear option, and that's switching the underslung secondary weapon for a generally less effective one at no cost. It is also generally accepted to be an undercosted model.
If the basic Riptide chassis, which some people here seem to consider sub-par compared to an upgraded one, is on par with or better than the superior Barge variant in terms of value per point and its viable upgrades are all generally good deals or blatantly undercosted (which I believe is generally viewed as being the case) then it only makes the model more undercosted.
Taking the "low end" of a capabilities spectrum and using it as a lower bound is a widely accepted method of logical debating. Taking various upgraded variants on the other hand and using them to argue that the basic chassis is undercosted would've indeed been a strawmen argument, as the upgrades are priced separately (to a certain degree at least).
Galorian is still cherry picking his data and has yet to put up anti AV and AA numbers which the annihilation barge excels at for free where as the Riptide has to specialize at, and even then the IA is terrible at it whereas the HBC is more effective. Still trying to justify your triple Annihilation barges? They threaten all targets short of AV13 out of the Box and are damned good at a variety of roles and AV13 is extremely durable at range. That is why they are undercosted, not because vs certain targets the riptide ekes out ahead. And IA is more specialized here, sucking at AA and is undercosted due to its ability to reduce reliance of the Nova reactor.
Shuppet is railing against anything more powerful than his precious Tyranids, his bias is evident. Tyranid MCs are based around an overpriced Chassis, T6 3+ just isn't worth as much as they say. Yes, the exocrine should be cheaper. Yes, the Carnifex should be cheaper. I'd be pissed two if GW screwed my army with consecutive terrible codices. If you perceive Tyranids as the balance point everything has undercosted options.
People are still clinging to the 6th Ed Tournament numbers. Tau have lost their most competitive build, the O'VesaStar and rightly so. But, SM who were knocking on Rau heels got a massive boost for all of their vehicles as well as all of the Imperium as Battle a brothers. Tau lost Eldar and sM Battle Brothers which is huge, no Psychic boosts, they now have to rely on their own Markerlights. Yes, Eldar and SM lost the BuffCommander, but he was only really relevant to the niche CenturionStar. Necrons got a massive boost, TeslaCrons will dominate, likely second only to Eldar. AM are going to be very strong in 7th. We will see Tau drop to ~4-5th in power behind Eldar, Necrons, and SM/Imperium Mixes, and will probably be on par with Daemons or below. Tau will not dominate in 7th as they did in 6th. Change your mind sets.
Aaaaand none of that has any relevance to the tide being op, yes other armies got buffs and debuffs, but the tide is still far too good for its points cost, and yes I'm sure the burst cannon tide isn't the best choice vs the ia and I accept that, it still doesn't mean that the hbc tide is crap, it still outclasses every other mc bar the wraithknight, giving the tide a 3+ OR removal of its inv save (let it nova for a 4++ at best or something) would go along way to helping fix it.
Alterniatvly, make it a walker like it should be, let it have its 5++ (with no nova for 3++) and av13/12/10 and leave it the same cost, like a contemptor.
I don't think the Riptide would be worth running without an IA with a 3+. Against shots that don't ignore armor you're effectively doubling the wounds that get through.
Where it would take Bolters wounding on 6's:
2+ would need 180 and 3+ would need 90
or Autocannons needing 3's to wound:
2+ would require about 90 and 3+ would need 45
So you're asking for about a cut in half it's resiliency for the same price.
The Nova is almost required for the HBC, and limiting the other Nova options unless you want to forgo what the Riptide is supposed to be doing. The Nova doesn't change it's potential to get wounded, 1/3 chance each turn to cut the Bolter hits down from 90 to 72, but it doubles the likely hood of getting wounds through gets hot.
This is the problem with trying to make house rules for things. There is no baseline to go off of. There are so many good examples and bad examples, and each having different reasons for being good and being bad, that it's impossible to figure out what could be done to bring something in line.
Also I think a lot of you guys are missing the point the Tau players are trying to put out. Yes, the Riptide is a very durable and powerful unit. But the "fixes" that some suggest aren't going to fix the issue. The issue is the IA is a severely undercosted upgrade. Changing the base for the Riptide makes the HBC an unusable option. By trying to fix the IA, you're destroying the opposite build.
It's like trying to fix the Eternal shield CM by raising the cost of the Chapter Master while reducing his statline and so on. You're ruining the other builds to fix a poorly priced item.
If the tide has a 3+ save the ion accelerator becomes much easier to deal with, so 160 bolter shots being reduced to 90... Hell yes that is what should happen and no price reduction at all, it's far too good a platform the ia just makes it even better.
Btw the bolter analogy isn't great at they will never have that many shots and will never be in range of a riptide that is played properly, that thing should be countered the same way a predator is, as it stands it's tougher than a land raider and is cheaper.
Formosa wrote: If the tide has a 3+ save the ion accelerator becomes much easier to deal with, so 160 bolter shots being reduced to 90... Hell yes that is what should happen and no price reduction at all, it's far too good a platform the ia just makes it even better.
But your solution completely invalidates the HBC. Instead of making the Riptide balanced, you're making it so the only version anyone would run is the IA so that you don't need to Nova or take as many Gets Hot rolls and are able to stay further away.
Btw the bolter analogy isn't great at they will never have that many shots and will never be in range of a riptide that is played properly, that thing should be countered the same way a predator is, as it stands it's tougher than a land raider and is cheaper.
I wouldn't say it's tougher than a land raider. You're saying land raiders are weaker because there is the chance to be killed in 1 shot and less options for saves against dedicated anti-tank.
But you're not looking at it being completely immune from all sides to S7 and less. Even S8 weapons only glance it on a 6 without melta.
Again, it would take 9 S8 AP1 shots to kill a Riptide while a Land Raider could take 24 without any saves. Are you going to tell me the Riptide is tougher in this case?
No the hbc doesn't become invalidated, that's nonsense, it forces the player to actually think about useing the nova charge rather than just do it every turn.
The hbc alone has plenty of shots and also has either a sms system, plasma rifle or a fusion blaster, so yep still a damn good loadout for its cost, even with a 3+ save.
And yes the tide is tougher than a land raider currently, by a very large margin, the obvious as you said is the ability not to be one shotted, it also cannot be shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed or immobilized, add on top of that an actual save, so 2+, 5++ or 3++ 5 wounds, yes the raider is immune tk certain weapons, but so is the tide due to its range and mobility.
Formosa wrote: If the tide has a 3+ save the ion accelerator becomes much easier to deal with, so 160 bolter shots being reduced to 90... Hell yes that is what should happen and no price reduction at all, it's far too good a platform the ia just makes it even better.
But your solution completely invalidates the HBC. Instead of making the Riptide balanced, you're making it so the only version anyone would run is the IA so that you don't need to Nova or take as many Gets Hot rolls and are able to stay further away.
Btw the bolter analogy isn't great at they will never have that many shots and will never be in range of a riptide that is played properly, that thing should be countered the same way a predator is, as it stands it's tougher than a land raider and is cheaper.
I wouldn't say it's tougher than a land raider. You're saying land raiders are weaker because there is the chance to be killed in 1 shot and less options for saves against dedicated anti-tank.
But you're not looking at it being completely immune from all sides to S7 and less. Even S8 weapons only glance it on a 6 without melta.
Again, it would take 9 S8 AP1 shots to kill a Riptide while a Land Raider could take 24 without any saves. Are you going to tell me the Riptide is tougher in this case?
Even if a Riptide with a 3+ save would be overcosted (un-bloody-likely) all that means is that it should have a slight price reduction to go with the change (which, again, isn't the case).
The Riptide is far too good a platform- priced appropriately it would have too low a damage output and thus be ignored, making all that durability pointless. The answer is obviously to make it a less durable platform (which would also fit the fluff) that could then be appropriately priced with good firepower for its cost.
You want it to stay nigh-indestructible? That costs, and at the price tag it should have it would have mediocre firepower per-point. You want it to both keep its current firepower-per-point ratio and not be undercosted? That means nerfing the platform itself, which is simply far too good as is.
Who cares. Nobody is going to change the rules.
What I want to know is exactly *how* overpowered a Riptide is, using as much numbers and as little qualitative arguments as possible while still considering non-numeric aspects such as range, cover availability, mobility, vulnerability to counters, etc.
Ok here is a number, I have been playing 25 years and seen good stuff come and go, second to the siren Prince the riptide I and r'varna is the toughest mc that's ever existed, shooting wise with its hbc it's one of the best ever in that field and the ia it is the best, this is when you combine them with its other weapons too.
Mobility wise it is the single most mobile mc that's ever existed with notable exception to infiltrating deamon prince's from 3rd.
Durability has already been discussed as above.
Maths wise, all you can get is a vaccum idea of how.it could perform according to the laws of mathematics, since a real life environment is subject to the laws of mechanics and not mathematics all it will give you is a small idea of how the tide works. Anecdotal evidence supplied by the majority of people stops being anecdotal and is just evidence at a certain point, were well past that point and evidence from the majority shows.the riptide to be far too good for its cost.
I can't help but feel that is a little biased.
The most durable MC that's ever existed? Right now we have Flying MC, Psyker MC with access to Biomancy, A FMC with access to Invisibility, MC with T8 and W6, and we already went over that the Nova/Gets Hot penalty it brings it well in line with other MC for survivability.
That's not including CC where it was already pointed out several MC beat it out easily, especially with the Riptide's lack of Fearless and is even susceptible to Fear.
The HBC alone is only an 8 shot S6 weapon on it's own at BS3, Dreadknights are able to get more reliable hits in from their torrent flamer than this. Nova charging brings it up to 12 shots at BS3, which nets it on average 2 rending hits and 2 Gets Hot along with 4 other hits and this is all at 36" range. This is far from the most firepower I've seen, especially now with the witchfire limit removed from psykers.
As for mobility it has the ability to move anywhere between 8-18" a turn without a Nova and with between 12 and 30. Without the Nova it isn't really that mobile, especially considering the existence of FMC, Jump MC that can run and shoot, and teleporting Dreadknights.
But yeah, if you forget almost all the other MC we see right now then the Riptide is the best MC we see right now.
My apologies I should have said "base" mc, only outdone by the siren Prince, and that's because it could not be shot at.
Compared to the tide even the t8 fmc was easy to take down, admittedly if it failed its grounded test it was even easier to kill them as all if them lack an invun save and may have fnp.
With exception of course to the nurgle dp as it currently is but that relies on getting its psy powers off and can be stopped, the 3++ tide cannot be stopped.
Formosa wrote: My apologies I should have said "base" mc, only outdone by the siren Prince, and that's because it could not be shot at.
Compared to the tide even the t8 fmc was easy to take down, admittedly if it failed its grounded test it was even easier to kill them as all if them lack an invun save and may have fnp.
With exception of course to the nurgle dp as it currently is but that relies on getting its psy powers off and can be stopped, the 3++ tide cannot be stopped.
While the Nurgle Daemon Prince using Iron Arm can be stopped it only on deny the witch rolls of 6, while the Riptide will fail to activate its 3++ save if it rolls a 1 or 2. I will agree that the Riptide is quite powerful when equipped with a IA and supported properly, but I feel its capabilities are being way over exaggerated in this thread. If was to make any changes to the Riptide I would simply make the IA cost 25 points instead of 5.
But then the tide still has the same problem, stupidly resilient platform with a decent gun, it's the platform that's broken not the guns, there is no good reason why it's not a walker other than they wanted it to sell.
But we've already shown that the platform isn't that broken. With the risk of Nova it brings it inline for survivability in order to get the base gun up to a decent profile, which will also bring some risk with it.
And the main Nova ability for the HBC build will be the gun. So when comparing durability you don't just assume it's 3++ and can't assume it's getting 4D6" extra movement.
There is a good reason it's not a walker, and that is that the Crisis suits and Broadsides are T4 2W models. It's the same as Wraithguard compared to the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.
Savageconvoy wrote: But we've already shown that the platform isn't that broken. With the risk of Nova it brings it inline for survivability in order to get the base gun up to a decent profile, which will also bring some risk with it.
And the main Nova ability for the HBC build will be the gun. So when comparing durability you don't just assume it's 3++ and can't assume it's getting 4D6" extra movement.
There is a good reason it's not a walker, and that is that the Crisis suits and Broadsides are T4 2W models. It's the same as Wraithguard compared to the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.
By that logic, why is this guy not a GMC?
Why even have a "walker" category? Riptides and Wraighknights aren't any less fitting for it than Dreadnaughts. At least Crisis suits are small enough to justify not using vehicle rules...
Formosa wrote: But then the tide still has the same problem, stupidly resilient platform with a decent gun, it's the platform that's broken not the guns, there is no good reason why it's not a walker other than they wanted it to sell.
I thought the main reason why its a MC was due to how all Tau suits were multi-wound models and the Riptide was keeping to that theme. It quite tough but vulnerable to poison and many other weapons that even the lightest vehicle would never have to deal with.
I'm not trying to say it makes sense. There is no basis for what is a walker and what's a MC.
Knight: Walker
Riptide: MC Penitent engine: Walker
Dreadknight: MC Soul Grinder: Walker
Forge/Maulerfiend: Walker
Wraithknight: MC Necron Spider: MC
There is a huge disconnect when they started making Walkers into MC and MC into Walkers. I don't agree with most of it. But you can't say there is no reason for the Riptide to not be a MC, since there are several examples of how this does not hold up.
I can actually, it's called consistency, for example if it's a living creature (fex, dp) then it should be a mc, if it's a piloted construct it should be a walker and no crossover between.
So maulerfiends should be mc and tides and wraithknights should be walkers, the wraithlord is the only one I can think of that could be both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh btw I totally agree with what your saying about.the random nature of what.they choose to be a mc or a walker
Savageconvoy wrote: I'm not trying to say it makes sense. There is no basis for what is a walker and what's a MC.
Knight: Walker
Riptide: MC Penitent engine: Walker
Dreadknight: MC Soul Grinder: Walker
Forge/Maulerfiend: Walker
Wraithknight: MC Necron Spider: MC
There is a huge disconnect when they started making Walkers into MC and MC into Walkers. I don't agree with most of it. But you can't say there is no reason for the Riptide to not be a MC, since there are several examples of how this does not hold up.
Out of the list the only one I feel really needs a change is the Dreadknight though it probable cause I think the model is stupid looking more than anything. Outside of a few examples like that I think most units are the correct type: Wraithknight and Wraithlords being MCs due to how Wraithbone works etc. Though back to what the OP was asking I feel the Riptide is mostly fine as is except for the price of some of its upgrades. It just surprising to see a MC with both durability and firepower when we are use to the really bad Tyranid MCs and other lackluster MCs especially once you factor in the changes 7th has made such as the Smash rule.
It's hard to say. For me the biggest issue is the control system and the body.
Control system has to be more mental and less pilot operated. A plugged in brain will respond faster and more fluidly/naturally than a joystick and throttle or other controls that you have to learn how they relate to movement.
The body is another issue. For example the Defiler uses large armored legs to crawl so I can see it being a Walker. The body of the Forgefiend is a combination of metal and demonic flesh but with the flesh in control of the legs and arms. The Riptide is a very good example of one of these disconnects. Look at it's feet. It's balancing the entirety of the suit's weight on those tiny ankles and tip toes, while I'm sure the suit's jetpack is assisting it in standing upright this can not be something naturally controlled by the pilot.
Honestly, I do wish they would fix the issue and make a clear disconnect. The Obvious answer is to make metallic constructs walkers and organic ones MC. There are things that stand in between, like the Necron MC and the Forgefiends but that could be solved by giving them exceptions like they did with the Heldrake initially.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I will add, that Riptide upgrades aren't really costed that well. Suits and Riptides share a lot of the costs with the exception of Stim injectors. Having Velocity trackers and EWO should not cost the same for a suit and broadside as it does for a weapon platform like the Riptide since they have too different of weapon options.
Stim Injectors offer about a 1/3 increase in survivability for wounds that don't cause ID. For this 1/3 increase a suit pays almost 70% of it's initial cost and that's not counting the volume of S8+ shooting available.
For a Riptide it can't double it's toughness and ID is almost nonexistant in shooting weapons. This 1/3 increase in durability over a much larger ranges of weapons than the Crisis suit costs only about 20% of it's base cost. This just doesn't make sense to me since I could see small discounts from 1/3 the base price for things like the relevance of ID and the amount of weapons that double T along with how many slots it has. Really I think GW decides prices based on dart games.
Because, as the rulebook explains, "Poisoned" covers things such as EMP, acids, computer viruses and the like as well. It's more or less shorthand for "weapon tailored to fight a certain type of foe".
Because, as the rulebook explains, "Poisoned" covers things such as EMP, acids, computer viruses and the like as well. It's more or less shorthand for "weapon tailored to fight a certain type of foe".
In that case then shouldn't Poison also classify type? Afterall poison won't affect Necrons and EMP won't hurt Nids. Haywire doesn't affect Riptides but it destroys Dreds.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, that's easy to be, when there isn't another model in your class.
Pure ranged high-ROF dakka MC with no melee tendencies simply does not exist outside of riptide.
You mean apart from Exocrines?
Exocrines, good note, they are even a bit CLOSE. both are shooters with nearly no CC ability off the bat, similar statlines and even some resembling upgrades (IWND/FnP have some similarity in durability increases)
But they are still not the same. as noted, I am looking for high ROF dedicated shooter, not high-quality fire dedicated shooter.
S7AP2? that's quality fire. not quantity fire.
Meaning we got a generalist shooter, versus a specialist one.
Despite this grand difference, I'd use exocrines as test subjects.
The difference in guns means that even when the overcharge is active, the exocrine is superior against several targets (mostly good armor targets 2+ for sure, maybe 3+ too, and high T targets.) while inferior against others (hordes are the worst for her)
Their play-style is different though, the riptide focuses on getting out of the way (as he is still even worse at CC than exo), while the exo wants to stand close enough so that she needs not move, and then her shooting gets stronger.
In effect, both can give something up in order to improve their shooting. giving up your health is usually a bigger sacrifice, but the riptide as the tougher natural shell to compensate
So, in temps of how useful is their firepower? riptide is slightly higher, as he's more diverse. durability? not very different, we already established that with all the NOVA and "gets hot" results he's not any harder to remove then an identical chassis with 3+ save is without them. mobility? riptide takes the crown here. giving you something special? exocrine is the winner here, as ranged AP2 at decent RoF is something special, while just spitting ranged S5-6 is nothing unique in a codex revolving around S5 and 7 guns.
So when comparing the two, you need to answer three question:
1-how much (if it all) is the riptide superior?
2-how balanced (if at all) is the exocrine?
3-how different is the price?
3 is easy, hardly any difference. the riptide's price is only slightly above.
The answer to 1, I believe the riptide to be slightly superior. not immensely so, but he IS a bit superior. its hard to tell just by how much, but given that high armor is a major issue unanswered, a direct counter to it is valuable.
This leaves us with 2. is the exocrine in her own right any good? I'd say yes, shes decent. not top-tier, but decent.
So we got a base unit that appears decent, and compared to her something a bit more expensive and slightly superior, the difference in power IS bigger then the point costs suggests, but not by much.
This leads the riptide to be a good unit. slightly strong, but within the realms of reason.
Galorian, if we reffer to the table you presented in page 9, tell me-how often do you expect to see T3-4 with +4 or worse saves outside of cover? even T5 or 6 with this armor is not likely to wander out of cover unless they got something REALLY important to do there. the majorety of "riptide is superior per point over barge" situations are simply not realistic.
T7/8 with Sv2+ for example...what HAS these stats?
If we look at the table of the point efficiency of the riptide VS the barge, where you even assumed snap fire the barge, not quite a fair assumption as the barge only takes snap fire in after-effect of getting shot, while riptide makes the decision beforehand, changing the decisions greatly. but we'll let it slide and work under that biased assumption anyway, we get the following results:
Spoiler:
Vs targets out of cover:
Target rRT/2AB
T3 Sv5+ 112.50 Unrealistic scenario.
T3 Sv4+ 117.86 Unrealistic scenario.
T3 Sv3+ 77.73
T3 Sv2+ 102.27 Unrealistic profile.
T4 Sv5+ 102.86 Unrealistic scenario.
T4 Sv4+ 111.43
T4 Sv3+ 73.64
T4 Sv2+ 98.18
T5 Sv5+ 83.96 Unrealistic profile AND Unrealistic scenario. (ogryn and? they hardly count, as they are well-known underpowered, taking it as "unrealistic profile".)
T5 Sv4+ 91.79
T5 Sv3+ 64.90
T5 Sv2+ 90.87
T6 Sv5+ 76.42 Unrealistic profile.
T6 Sv4+ 84.91
T6 Sv3+ 65.85
T6 Sv2+ 98.78
T7 Sv5+ 63.46 Unrealistic profile.
T7 Sv4+ 73.08 Unrealistic profile.
T7 Sv3+ 67.50
T7 Sv2+ 112.50 Unrealistic profile.
T8 Sv5+ 63.00 Unrealistic profile.
T8 Sv4+ 66.00 Unrealistic profile.
T8 Sv3+ 82.89
T8 Sv2+ 153.95 Unrealistic profile.
Vs targets in 5+ cover/invul: (yes, invul exists too, lets not neglect that notion, if only for completeness. it applies to pretty much the entire deamon codex.)
Target vs cover
T3 Sv5+ 91.07
T3 Sv4+ 89.29
T3 Sv3+ 75.00
T3 Sv2+ 85.91 Unrealistic profile.
T4 Sv5+ 81.43
T4 Sv4+ 82.86
T4 Sv3+ 68.57
T4 Sv2+ 81.82
T5 Sv5+ 66.04 Unrealistic profile.
T5 Sv4+ 67.91
T5 Sv3+ 56.25
T5 Sv2+ 73.56
T6 Sv5+ 59.43 Unrealistic profile.
T6 Sv4+ 62.26
T6 Sv3+ 54.88
T6 Sv2+ 76.83
T7 Sv5+ 48.08 Unrealistic profile.
T7 Sv4+ 52.56 Unrealistic profile.
T7 Sv3+ 52.50
T7 Sv2+ 82.50 Unrealistic profile.
T8 Sv5+ 51.00 Unrealistic profile.
T8 Sv4+ 50.00 Unrealistic profile.
T8 Sv3+ 59.21
T8 Sv2+ 106.58 Unrealistic profile.
I allowed myself to note up things that are either highly improbable or non-existent as "unrealistic". "scenarios" are cases where such a shot should not have been made available, and if it did then something went horribly wrong before it, and "profile" is when there is simply things I am not aware of a single model with said profile that isn't a highly-specific setup/named dude or that the only thing that carries such (for example T3 Sv2 is pretty much celectine and a single inquisitor type under a given upgrade), or is known faulty and there isn't a single noteworthy unit of that profile, despite some existing. (ogryn for example)
And I was GENEROUS here. some things not noted as "unrealistic" really are, such as T4Sv4 in the open. only took the wildly out there situations as "unrealistic scenarios", as the lowest armor in the game out in the open with no T value of note.
And if you attempt to blame me for taking out exacly the relevant cases, a quick look will reveal that many cases of great bias toward the barge was taken as unrealistic too, its simply based on the profile and not who's better at it.
If someone would correct me on some of the T7-8 armor profiles and show me an example where they do exist, it will be nice.
T7 cew of artillery ignored here, despite the fact you might effectively have to deal with them despite not existing. they are pretty biased towards barges anyway, so that's not something you should complain about.
So, even when you made every possible assumption in favor of the riptide making perfect decisions, ignored AV targets (where the barge will out-preform on almost all and we both know it) and ignore the vastly superior anti-air capabilities of the barge, we are still left with 48 scenarios, distributed as the following:
Unrealistic scenarios: 3/48
Unrealistic Profiles: 16/48 (yes, alot, but many profiles just do NOT exist. and a quick scan reveals most would have been in favor of the barge)
Massive edge to the riptide (115 or better) 0/48 (yep, not even once. the only two are once unrealistic profile and another unrealistic scenario)
Edge for the riptide (105 to 115): 1/48 (and two more unrealistic profiles)
Similar (95 to 105): 2/48
Edge to the barge (85 to 95) : 4/48
Massive edge to the barge: (75 to 85 with 75): 8/48 (includes the riptide's own profile and TeQ)
Absurd edge to the barge: (65 to 75 without 75): 6/48 (includes MeQ in and out of cover, non-jink nurgle bikers/common TMC out of cove, etc, etc)
Not even funny edge for the barge (under 65): 6/48 (includes biker marines)
Just to amuse myself, I decided to do an average. the average result of the non-unrealisitcs is 77.10778. including the unrealistics its 79.41396. yep, over 20% more firepower per point to the barge against a random target.
Are you still going to argue the riptide is nearly as efficient, or do I need to make you a chart to show just how superior the barge is against targets that matter?
And again, that's when ignoring the AV value, who are still common targets, and where the barge will reign supreme.
Its easy to hide behind walls of information, but without properly processing it, you extract information that is unrelated to the truth from the raw data.
Yes, you gave correct percentages of how often one trumps the other, but you made no reference to just how much each trumps the other, nor did you remove "white noise" profiles.
And if you think the "unrealistic" filter made it look worse then it is for the riptide, spoiler alert-its still vastly in favor of the barge with an even more generous filter (if you count the "unrealistic scenarios" that are riptide-favored and count the "unrealistic profiles" who technically exist, but wont be met much, as artillery crews. and while the scenarios slightly favor the riptide, the profiles heavily favor the barge.) or without the filter at all.
Shuppet is railing against anything more powerful than his precious Tyranids, his bias is evident. Tyranid MCs are based around an overpriced Chassis, T6 3+ just isn't worth as much as they say. Yes, the exocrine should be cheaper. Yes, the Carnifex should be cheaper.
I didn't even bring up the Exocrine lol! I brought one other MC into the discussion (Carnifex) in response to YOUR post that all TMC's are overpowered and none of them are shoot. Regardless, neither the Exocrine nor the Carnifex should be cheaper. Both are very competitive and balanced models. They would be powerful in almost any dex, that play very well against a bunch of dex's. They are overpriced compared to the Riptide - But here's the thing - compared to nearly every other MC in the game, INCLUDING DREADKNIGHT, they are balanced just fine - and all these MC's are ALSO overpriced against the Riptide. Now you are crying about an Exocrine being underpowered, its ridiculous lol hes a great model.
The power level for a balanced Riptide is not "above every model that doesn't make it into play competitively". Guess what, a lot of broken gak sees play competitively and a lot of balanced stuff does not. That's why there is about 4-5 armies out of 13 actually competing on a solid competitive rung, about 3 or 4 of these armies are just clinging to this power level by one overpowered gimmick that if balanced would bring their codex to the tier of other models, like Summoning or Riptide. I have no bias, so I am using the power level set by the standards of every other MC (and unit) in the game, you are however saying that every other MC said be brought up to the power level of the Riptide - LOL. My first army ever was Tau. I own 4000 points of Tau. I main Tyranid this edition because my Tau became OP. You can try to swing this around and say I'm bias (against my own first army, you know, I just freaking hate those guys), but I think what you are actually doing is seeing how much everyone actually thinks YOU are being bias and how it destroys any of your arguments, and trying to use the same thing to strengthen your own - heres a tip, other people have to actually be making bias statements for that to even somewhat work.
While the Nurgle Daemon Prince using Iron Arm can be stopped it only on deny the witch rolls of 6, while the Riptide will fail to activate its 3++ save if it rolls a 1 or 2. I will agree that the Riptide is quite powerful when equipped with a IA and supported properly, but I feel its capabilities are being way over exaggerated in this thread. If was to make any changes to the Riptide I would simply make the IA cost 25 points instead of 5.
Excellent logic!
Because your opponent rolling as many dice as he chooses to get a single 1/6 roll to deny your Iron Arm, is far more reliable than a set 2/3 chance of success amirite?
Hell he just has to roll 2 of the 3 WC dice you used to secure the successful cast (which is yet and still another roll that could go wrong for Iron Arm) and you are already matching the chance of failure that his 3++ has.
Nonetheless, good attempt at logic. It'll catch up with ridiculous statements one day.
Exocrines, good note, they are even a bit CLOSE. both are shooters with nearly no CC ability off the bat, similar statlines and even some resembling upgrades (IWND/FnP have some similarity in durability increases) But they are still not the same. as noted, I am looking for high ROF dedicated shooter, not high-quality fire dedicated shooter. S7AP2? that's quality fire. not quantity fire. Meaning we got a generalist shooter, versus a specialist one.
Yet you said the Dreadknight was worthy of comparison... goddamn, this entire paragraph just reeks of "bs excuse" regardless hahaha.
Meh it was Zagman who said it not you, you've just supported all his logic and reasoning. Though if you are willing to back-pedal on your views just to make me wrong on a technicality of "who said what", go for it.
You know what, let just for the sake of the arguement compare the dreadknight for a moment, a model you just called fair.
They have the same base armor, invul, and T value, so lets deconstruct what IS different.
A naked dreadknight is 130 points.
He has vastly superior base stats (other then W), lets say they are worth ONLY 10 points for the +3WS, +1BS,+2I and +1 LD.
Nobody will ever refuse to pay 15 points for such stat difference on anything remotely like an MC or HQ. many will pay 15 points to give it to infantry.
A psyker level is widely considered 25 points worth, but he has a fixed power "hammerhand", that isn't really helping him unless he somehow lost his fists, and the "banishment" that is situational, so lets call it "just" 10 points for odd chance they become relevant, the psyker defense and warp charge generation it gives him. fair cost in any way.
Next we got the doomfists, you get two of when naked, meaning you are S10 in CC without the need to attack once via smash, though the need for such high S only applies VS multi-wound T4-5, anything that is wounded by less then 2+ on S6 (T5 and above) and anything with AV values. also as a nemesis weapon you get some special rules against deamons, and the "force" power if you want to try and ID anything above T5.
Actually-that's quite alot of times it comes up, its most quality targets.
Sure its worth AT LEAST 10 points, right?
The ageis, ATSKNF, PE (deamons) are fair enough for 10 points. ATSKNF is amazing for an MC, especially a non-fearless one. (And fear-causing effects are common enough, just ignored because "everything that matters is fearless". well riptide isn't.)
So, under very, VERY releasable prices that I would have taken every time without hesitation on any MC, the dreadknight's chassis without the toys is 45 points cheaper, so its 85 points chassis alone after compatibility, when generous.
The riptide has this chassis, then it builds upon it +1 wound, jetpack movement the HBC and the NOVA engine.
A wound for 20 points is a fair offer. Yes, I just paid 5 points to turn 3WS 1BS 2I and 1LD into 1W.
So we are up to 105 points.
Jetpack? 20 points? (WINGS cost 35, and vastly superior) its 125.
So 55 points for the HBC itself, SMS, and the NOVA generator. the two impressive of these thing come at the price of hurting the user badly when used to full effect.
Does not seem incredibly powerful by any count. and I was very generous towards the dreadknight and against the riptide, and anyone could see it.
Yeah we did this exact comparison a few pages ago remember, and it was pretty universally agreed by everyone except Zagman that 6" move speed + the bulk of your damage in assault + 12" flamer, is not equivalent to having all your damage in shooting, 36" range, 12" movespeed and Jump-shoot-jump.
As a on and off tau player i dont play or own a riptide for a variety of reasons. I consider it to be over powered, people hate facing it, i genuinely HATE the model, the model cost is too damn high, and i love stealth suits (i own no crisis suits, only stealth suits). We have a triptide player at the store i go to, i havent seen him play but would not play against him. Personally i believe the tyranids should get something more like the riptide, not the tau.
You did a comparison of an equipped dreadknight, I compared a naked one to reverse-engineer it into the riptide.
And at no step on the way you got something to note out that stands irregular, though I CAN point out some very unfavorable trades made by the riptide in the pure stats detachment.
As for the flamer, its overpriced. don't use it as base of comparison. S6AP4 torrent? I would not pay 30 points for it. I'd probably not even pay 20. its a poor gun.
As for the flamer, its overpriced. don't use it as base of comparison. S6AP4 torrent? I would not pay 30 points for it. I'd probably not even pay 20. its a poor gun.
It is worth 30 points because it is on a tough platform with access to teleportation.
I would never buy the gun on a MEQ model. On a T6 W4 2+/5++ model who can even access teleport upgrades? Hell yes. That kind of firepower will butcher any xenos hiding in cover.
A quick shunt forward with an alpha strike heavy psycannon + heavy incenerator barrage can throw a spanner into many a battle plan, especially if you go with two DKs.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: As a on and off tau player i dont play or own a riptide for a variety of reasons. I consider it to be over powered, people hate facing it, i genuinely HATE the model, the model cost is too damn high, and i love stealth suits (i own no crisis suits, only stealth suits). We have a triptide player at the store i go to, i havent seen him play but would not play against him. Personally i believe the tyranids should get something more like the riptide, not the tau.
So you use stealth suits
don't use crisis suits
and haven't played with a Riptide
you know someone that has 3 but haven't seen him play them to see how they work
No offense, but it doesn't seem like you're very fair to judge them. You've already stated that you hate the model, cost, and would avoid someone because of the model. This is very biased and doesn't really sound like you have much experience with or against them.
Now you are calculation combo results, not the value of the gun ITSELF.
You cannot calculate combo results properly, there is way too much data. that's why calculations are limited to one factor at a time.
A quick shunt forward with HPC and HI is indeed useful, but because of the shunt that allows you to reach places far beyond regular reach, and the threat of assault by a great CCMC next turn that MUST be addressed, not the damage output given by the HI itself. it also costs a small fortune, due to the shunt's price.
When measuring the power of something for its price, you need to look at if its worth it on its own. you paid for the gun, not for the option to combo up, because that means you still pay for the combo even when not taking it, and you pay for ANY combo, taken or not.
It causes problems on units with tons of options like some MCs, as some combos are bound to turn out better then the sum of their parts. but we are currently looking at parts, not sums. sums cannot be directly compared by anything, and the only relative comparison we got are game results. problem is, we don't have many game result including HBC tides to work with, as few take them (because IA tides are OP, so you might as well, from competitive standpoint..)
The problem there, if you price it to combo results, you overprice it for singual takes.
Its an inherit flaw in the system of modual armies in a game of non-modular pricing, where the cost of one thing more often does not don't take other factors into account (thank god at least riptide's FNP does)
But this flaw applies equally to all things within the system.
Sure, if you priced pink horrors as 15 per model and heralds psyker levels as 40 each then the psyker overload was fair, but then the single herald with a single squad of horrors would have been horribly overpriced.
The pricing system from the ground up is simply not built to deal with it.
As for your flamer note, maybe it fits your tastes, but mathematical its not a good price by itself. it only is owrth anything while shunting, and even then its dubious.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: As a on and off tau player i dont play or own a riptide for a variety of reasons. I consider it to be over powered, people hate facing it, i genuinely HATE the model, the model cost is too damn high, and i love stealth suits (i own no crisis suits, only stealth suits). We have a triptide player at the store i go to, i havent seen him play but would not play against him. Personally i believe the tyranids should get something more like the riptide, not the tau.
So you use stealth suits
don't use crisis suits
and haven't played with a Riptide
you know someone that has 3 but haven't seen him play them to see how they work
No offense, but it doesn't seem like you're very fair to judge them. You've already stated that you hate the model, cost, and would avoid someone because of the model. This is very biased and doesn't really sound like you have much experience with or against them.
i have lurked here since sixth and have observed riptides and crisis suits online, just not in person.
BoomWolf wrote: The problem there, if you price it to combo results, you overprice it for singual takes.
Its an inherit flaw in the system of modual armies in a game of non-modular pricing, where the cost of one thing more often does not don't take other factors into account (thank god at least riptide's FNP does)
But this flaw applies equally to all things within the system.
Sure, if you priced pink horrors as 15 per model and heralds psyker levels as 40 each then the psyker overload was fair, but then the single herald with a single squad of horrors would have been horribly overpriced.
The pricing system from the ground up is simply not built to deal with it.
As for your flamer note, maybe it fits your tastes, but mathematical its not a good price by itself. it only is owrth anything while shunting, and even then its dubious.
It is also excellent to thin out enemy melee attackers before the close combat begins.
Snippet, please please point me to the post where I claimed that TMCs are overpowered. Just one.
Th exocrine was brought up, you commented on so I addressed it in one comment. A better Comparison is the Exocrine to the Ia Riptide as their weapons are similar enough for comparison, but no need to really delve into it. Riptide is much more durable, it's Pieplates are higher Strength but fail to fire once a game, has secondary weapons, it's got longer Range and is more mobile, while the Exocrine is self buffing and has a higher RoF weapon, is more reliable in CC, and can't be affected by leadership based attacks. The cost between the two isn't much, and if you adjust it's by how much TMCs base chassis are Overcosted and how much the IA is undercosted their capabilities are similar. It's just as easy to say the Exocrine is Overcosted as it is to say the Riptide is Undercosted when the real answer is a bit of both, and it is due to the durability increase from not being forced to Nova Reactor.
You asked for an MC similar enough for comparison, I offered the Dreadknight. Dismissing my arguments and claiming your own superior got us no where. Boomwolf did a good job and was correct to just use the base Dreadknight, as it is more Durable per Point and is still a CC Monster. Arbitrarily assigning worth to complex scenarios and cherry picking those scenarios does little good.
I can no longer take any of your arguments about competitive play seriously as firstly you think Daemon Summoning is a competitive strategy. It not. Its not that good, tournament time limits not withstanding. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Secondly you equate Riptides as a competitive play strategy. Both of these are incorrect. Just ask they guys who put them on the table expecting to win and got stomped. Over and over in competitive play.
Did you even read the list I posted and rated almost every MC in the game in regards to their pricing? Clearly I did not state every MC needs to be caught up to the Riptide, but none the less many MCs, especially those with T6 3+ Chassis are Overcosted.
You cannot assert the premise "TMCs are balanced, therefore the Riptide is not." And then use it in an argument. I've argued that the Dreadknight is appropriately costed in comparison to the HBC Riptide. Of course most of what I posted was outright ignored, misquoted, or misunderstood. I've argued that the TMC base chassis is Overcosted and I can continue to do so if you like. I'd like to to show me how the TMC chassis is appropriately costed, you can't assume it's a true premise then use it in arguments.
I don't care what your first army was or how much Tau you have. "I main Tyranid this edition because my Tau became OP." Is nothing but an immature attention grab meant to stroke your own ego.
There were 5 armies that were dominating the 6th Ed Tournaments. Eldar, Tau, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, and Necron. We didn't get to see how Astra Militarum would have done, but they are here for 7th and are going to do well. If you've played 40k anytime at all you know that this sort of thing is common, remember GK towards then end of 5th? 1/3-1/4 of armies at competitive events. There are always a handful of armies that dominate the tournament circuit, and no surprise they were the majority of the books released for this edition minus the flops. And now we have 7th edition, Competitive Riptides took major hits, and the strongest Tau build is now history. If you think Riptides alone own tournaments, you are severely mistaken. Good players and good lists don't have much trouble handling them. Taus biggest 6th Ed boons are gone, and we've got the Imperial Brofest of 7th on the horizon. If you think the Tyrnaid codex is any kind of cue for 6th or 7th Ed balance you will be sorely mistaken over and over again. Look at the majority of the 6th Ed books and the Riptide fits in. Editions change, the game changes. Adapt.
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