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And just as obvious is the fact that something's not right with the Riptide to begin with, Centurions or not. Discounting actual reasons to the other side of your argument actually does more to hurt your own point of view by showing extreme bias.

Grav Centurions with or without Tigger are good against Riptides. You can't just be like "yeah, but what ELSE have they got!". No. That's what they have. They can use this weapon so why would they not? SM who are not allowed to bring any Grav is just a big competitive handicap in general. Comparing it to a competitive Tau list is silly, unless you make the Tau non-competitive by taking out the Riptides, and then you have my original point, which is why the hell are you taking out units to begin with,
Because it adds nothing at all to a discussion and only hurts your argument.

Let the Riptide be OP. Don't justify it's supporters by being ridiculously biased against it to the point of discounting logical points. The question was asked which armies do have a ranged counter to Riptide, and a legit answer was given.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I agree the Riptide is way OP

Gravstar might be expensive but its still very common


It's silly to just discount units though and adds nothing to the argument either way

I don't care if its +500 pts, so is the 3 Riptides every Tau player fields

3 riptides? there are 10 people at my FLGS that play regularly and a further 8-10 more that occiationally show up. Among us are 5 tau players, not a single one of us brings more than 1-2 riptides even in large games. Its not as common of a tactic as you think, not every tau player is a cheesemongering dick lol.
Actually now that i think about it only 2 of us even have riptides or have a desire to get one, myself being one of them.

Even among other gaming stores or the local tournaments i havent even heard of a tau spamming riptides anymore except for the random "that guy" that gets banned for other reasons, not his army list.

EDIT: Also space marine plasma bikers work just as well, and thats something most if not all marines have access to. Dark Angels player brings a squad of them purely because of my riptide and he has one hell of a track record for catching it with 8+ BS4 TL plasma shots, whether he outflanks or not.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I agree the Riptide is way OP

Gravstar might be expensive but its still very common


It's silly to just discount units though and adds nothing to the argument either way

I don't care if its +500 pts, so is the 3 Riptides every Tau player fields

3 riptides? there are 10 people at my FLGS that play regularly and a further 8-10 more that occiationally show up. Among us are 5 tau players, not a single one of us brings more than 1-2 riptides even in large games. Its not as common of a tactic as you think, not every tau player is a cheesemongering dick lol.
Actually now that i think about it only 2 of us even have riptides or have a desire to get one, myself being one of them.

Even among other gaming stores or the local tournaments i havent even heard of a tau spamming riptides anymore except for the random "that guy" that gets banned for other reasons, not his army list.

It's absolutely irrelevant if they only bring 2 riptides to be less cheesy (great job there!) because we are talking about the competitive capabilities of an army at it's highest setting, not one restricted by courtesy. When I said every player, I wasn't referring to the casual ones, or players looking for a SERIOUS CHALLENGE by only bringing 2 Riptides. Forgive me for not specifying to begin with.

Likewise i should have stated we usually play 2000-2500pts, 1-2 riptides drastically lose their bite at that level since theres more than 1 answer to them.

Yeah, fielding 2 at a low point is still cheese. Tau in general are crazy at low points, which is why i decline playing below 1500 since i feel tau have too big of an advantage below that, whether i use riptides or not.
If they are or not is irrelevant thats just my personal view, plus i like bigger games anyway lol

 BoomWolf wrote:

And by "pay more" I mean that the price of a single plasma gun for IoM/chaos is 10 points, for tau its 15.

Plasma Guns cost 15 for pretty much everyone.

Also how would you beat an unbound triptide list at 750?

I would say they are slightly under costed. Maybe 20-30 points or so.

However they have nothing on wraith knights, who I have infinitely more difficulty with.

Riptides are good, but to be great they need support. Bufmanders and psychic powers are now out. Markerlights are the only things left.
Wraithknights on the other hand are a handful all on their own.

The riptide does have a few weaknesses too:
Heavy Armour - AV 13-14 targets are now quite a problem for riptides, who no longer have tank hunter.
Close Combat- They are just as slow as ever and have a low number of attacks. Sweeping them is quite easier if you can force them to run. Smash nerf means that they won't be punching out Landraiders left right and centre.
Leadership - If they take drones and then lose them, then they can run off the board. However there are lots of other things that can take advantage o their LD. Terrify for example can make a backline Riptide run right off without even taking a wound.

The wraith knight on the other hand has far less weaknesses.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

And by "pay more" I mean that the price of a single plasma gun for IoM/chaos is 10 points, for tau its 15.

Plasma Guns cost 15 for pretty much everyone.

Also how would you beat an unbound triptide list at 750?

An Unbound Tripple Wraithknight list at 750.

An Unbound 6xAnnihilation Barge List.

A couple of Objective secured Wave Serpents.

2x Imperial Knights

2x CCB Lords, Battleforged.

An objective secured Land raider.

A miniSeerstar

A miniBeaststar

Fateweaver, Geimiore Herald, screamers

Seriously, I can keep going....

Khorndog Rush

Battleforged Souritseer, 2x Wraithguard Wave serpent, Wraithknight..


I mean in haven't really started trying yet....

Riptides are way under costed. Fluff breaking and can take to many varieties of upgrades.

Unbound lists aren't valid for talking about whether a unit (or spamming it) is valid or not as Unbound does not have any sort of balance you could relate to.

How would i beat an unbound 750pt triptide list?

Not play it to begin with.

I wouldnt have fun playing with or against a list like that.

Also I'm going to weigh in on my personal opinion for this topic. There are two things about the riptide that make it too good for the points in my opinion. Those two things are the 2+ save and the ion accelerator upgrade.

Make the ion accelerator cost more than 5 points, like 20 or something, and give the riptide a 3+ save. It gets a lot less amazing.

With a 3+ save its practically worthless.
As proven, an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to himself per game as it is, on a 3+ it will increase to 4.66 wounds to itself.

It will crumble like a biscuit in hot coffee.

Which is why you need to make it BS6 so it can re-roll any 1s on the "gets hot" shots. Unless that rule interaction got changed in 7th edition.

 Zagman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

And by "pay more" I mean that the price of a single plasma gun for IoM/chaos is 10 points, for tau its 15.

Plasma Guns cost 15 for pretty much everyone.

Also how would you beat an unbound triptide list at 750?

An Unbound Tripple Wraithknight list at 750.

An Unbound 6xAnnihilation Barge List.

A couple of Objective secured Wave Serpents.

2x Imperial Knights

2x CCB Lords, Battleforged.

An objective secured Land raider.

A miniSeerstar

A miniBeaststar

Fateweaver, Geimiore Herald, screamers

Seriously, I can keep going....

Khorndog Rush

Battleforged Souritseer, 2x Wraithguard Wave serpent, Wraithknight..


I mean in haven't really started trying yet....

The fact you only bring up absurd lists to counter it says enough for me on the topic of Riptides.

If you can only deal with a Riptide using underpriced things, then guess what, the Riptide is underpriced.

So bringing an absurd list to counter an absurd list isnt a viable thing? That makes no sense, riptides arent the only thing that if you unbound list spam them at that point level you cannot beat without doing a similar absurd spamming list.

If your logic on dealing with an Overpowered units is bring other over powered units, you're basically saying the game is "Win with broken, play to break" The fact people are saying 3+ on a MC that can easily buy FNP and come stock T6 for the immunity to x2 toughness splats would make it useless is incredible... Incredibly slowed.

I don't see Wraithknights having issues with their 3+ saves. Massed fire tends to make them go away. A 3+ on a MC is perfectly suited to the fact the thing has multiple wounds, high mobility and an absurd amount of firepower. People will argue "Oh but the Wraithknight has T8 waaaaaah!" but guess what, it's not as dangerous as a MC who can erase an entire 2+ unit off the board. Not to mention the Wraithknight is perfectly priced for it's toughness and strengths. 12" Guns aren't as scary as 36" and it's 36" guns aren't all that terrifying when compared to the Riptides.

 BoomWolf wrote:
With a 3+ save its practically worthless.

lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So bringing an absurd list to counter an absurd list isnt a viable thing? That makes no sense, riptides arent the only thing that if you unbound list spam them at that point level you cannot beat without doing a similar absurd spamming list.

No, it's just proof to me that Riptides are absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Truth118 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
With a 3+ save its practically worthless.

lol

You mean it'd only be as tough as a 6 wound Carnifex with a jetpack to stay out of melee and an invulnerable save?

That's outrageous! /sarcasm

The wraithknight is T8 and does not deal over half his own wound to himself over the course of the game, I fail to see the comparison.
A HBC riptide has 1.7 wounds after he damages himself.
And you choose to ignore it, because its not comfortable to you, because it shows just how he is NOT both durable and spitting damage, just one or the other.

Even at an ubound spam where you take 3 of them at 750 points, its just 5.1 wounds. yes, on a T6 termi armor, but at this cost you could have just faced 15 or more termies to begin with. and it would require just as much specialized weapons.

"Easily buy FnP" is also a fallacy, its a 35 point upgrade on its own right. 35. that's by no means cheap or easy, few upgrades that people ctually take cost that much. whole transports cost that much at times.
That's a 19% increase in price on its own, once you took that, even if you DO overcharge every single turn, you will not achieve efficiency.
And while you do that, it still costs you 3.33 wounds, meaning that even with the 2.5 wounds you bought from the FnP, you got only 4.2 wounds. on a 215 point model.


You automatic hate of the riptide either from bad experience (rare, I'd bet most of you never faced real riptide spam) or listening to the net clouds your judjement so much you fail to notice every single time riptides caused promlems, they were IA spammed, and not HBC spammed.
And for a good reason, IA is far, far more powerful then HBC, powerful enough to turn it into OP as it got both great defense and great offense with it, rather then choosing.
The RARE HBC riptide that shows up, is one with the ECPA, as that relic takes greatly reduces the problem of the HBC killing the user, making him actually function.

Nobody even bothered addressing that an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to itself over the game. purely because you got nothing to say against it, its a hard fact that you choose to ignore as it completely invalidates the claim he has both good offensive and is hard to kill. because he's simply not. 1.67 wounds, that's all he's got. 4.17 when taking FnP-but then he needs to do 19% more damage to catch up to his increased price tag.
Its just NOT op. the half-comical debunk attempts seems to try to debunk the fact its a bad unit, but nobody claimed its a bad unit, just that it isn't an OP one. and without some specific upgrades (IA and EWO are the prime offenders) he's just a good unit.

I think a 3+ armor save would just about balance the Riptide. It'd still be very difficult to get into melee, can stay away from close-ranged weapons like Plasma Guns, has FNP and still has access to a 3++.

Maybe a 2+ armor save could be bought as an upgrade for 40-50pts.

Right now a Riptide is so durable in many cases its not worth wasting shots on.

Are you required to overcharge the riptide every turn and is the HBC riptide the only kind? Maybe if the riptide wasn't so durable it wouldn't last the entire game to do so many wounds to itself.

 Truth118 wrote:
I think a 3+ armor save would just about balance the Riptide. It'd still be very difficult to get into melee, can stay away from close-ranged weapons like Plasma Guns, has FNP and still has access to a 3++.

Maybe a 2+ armor save could be bought as an upgrade for 40-50pts.

Right now a Riptide is so durable in many cases its not worth wasting shots on.

Are you required to overcharge the riptide every turn and is the HBC riptide the only kind? Maybe if the riptide wasn't so durable it wouldn't last the entire game to do so many wounds to itself.

I don't know, 40-50 point seems a tad much. Maybe 20-30 with the IA costing 20-30?

 BoomWolf wrote:

The RARE HBC riptide that shows up, is one with the ECPA, as that relic takes greatly reduces the problem of the HBC killing the user, making him actually function.

Nobody even bothered addressing that an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to itself over the game.

Maybe Its because it's RARE, that people aren't addressing it? Maybe because it's overall more balanced than the IA riptide, but I could be wrong on that.

GoliothOnline wrote:
If your logic on dealing with an Overpowered units is bring other over powered units, you're basically saying the game is "Win with broken, play to break" The fact people are saying 3+ on a MC that can easily buy FNP and come stock T6 for the immunity to x2 toughness splats would make it useless is incredible... Incredibly slowed.

I don't see Wraithknights having issues with their 3+ saves. Massed fire tends to make them go away. A 3+ on a MC is perfectly suited to the fact the thing has multiple wounds, high mobility and an absurd amount of firepower. People will argue "Oh but the Wraithknight has T8 waaaaaah!" but guess what, it's not as dangerous as a MC who can erase an entire 2+ unit off the board. Not to mention the Wraithknight is perfectly priced for it's toughness and strengths. 12" Guns aren't as scary as 36" and it's 36" guns aren't all that terrifying when compared to the Riptides.

Its 36" gun isnt scary compared to the riptide? Its S10 Ap1 causes ID on a 6 and is BS4. It annihilates anything the Riptide struggles with, and to top it off its exceptional in melee.
T8 is massive boon, the 3+ armor is the only reason that thing isnt 10x as underpriced as the riptide. I have killed many MCs with T5/6 with S7 spamming, which doesnt pen their armor but since its a 3+ theres a decent chance they'll fail enough saves...thats significantly less dangerous against a 2+.
The riptide and wraithknight are basically polar opposites in terms of firepower. Riptide wants to take out lower-to-med toughness 2+ models or light vehicles, the Wraithknight kills heavy vehicles, MCs, and then charge in to punch whatever they can since their 2 shots are less viable against a horde of T3/4 models with an average save compared to its punches.
I admit its better priced for what it does, but still undercosted purely because of that ID chance and the rather effective melee capabilities WITHOUT the sword (not sure why that even exists lol its such a pointless buy)

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

The RARE HBC riptide that shows up, is one with the ECPA, as that relic takes greatly reduces the problem of the HBC killing the user, making him actually function.

Nobody even bothered addressing that an HBC riptide that keeps overcharging deals 3.33 wounds to itself over the game.

Maybe Its because it's RARE, that people aren't addressing it? Maybe because it's overall more balanced than the IA riptide, but I could be wrong on that.

My point exactly! the problem is the IA, not the riptide itself. once it carries an HBC, he's not a problem, ergo-no one ever made a deal out of him.

 Truth118 wrote:
Right now a Riptide is so durable in many cases its not worth wasting shots on.

Are you required to overcharge the riptide every turn and is the HBC riptide the only kind? Maybe if the riptide wasn't so durable it wouldn't last the entire game to do so many wounds to itself.

With the HBC, yes, you ARE required to overcharge pretty much every turn to be effective at shooting, otherwise you are just a big bulk of metal that's hard to kill, but wont make his points back.
And its not the only kind, the other kind is the IA riptide, and once again leading me back to the point that the problem lies in the IA itself, not the riptide as a riptide.

So in fact, its not all that durable its not worth shooting at as long it didnt grab an IA, as without the IA it DOES deal massive damage to himself. the reason the IA is so absurdly powerful comes not only in the damage output improvement, but from the fact you can never NOVA at all, and still pump out raw damage, and even when you do overcharge non-stop, the damage is lower. (2.16 wounds per game compared to 3.33)



IA riptide-broken is feth, and is definitely up as one of the biggest mistakes in current 40k, while not even getting a pass for being "from older edition and broken by rule changes", he was OP from the gate.
HBC riptide-fair deal, even a bit underwhelming (well, he IS pretty good, but requires to make really good decisions when to overcharge in order to get it to preform well, he's not very mistake forgiving there.)
There is no escaping it under any type of unbiased analysis. every single arguement I hear, again and again, is based on IA status, not HBC ones. even after I pointed it out multiple times, people still use IA as a base of their "required nerfs" (and often go way overboard there too)

I have played triptide quite alot and yes it's brutal, the biggest issue I have had isn't the ion accelerator, it's the jump movement, if that got taken away the riptide would be much easier to deal with.

Failing that removal of either the 2+ or the 5++ would also help bring it back inline as it would have to do what most other mc's have to do, hug cover.

Why does it matter if the Riptide is only overpowered with Ion Accelerators? I don't recall Ion Accelerators being one-per-army or any other factor stopping Tau players from taking an Ion Accelerator on every single Riptide in their list.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So bringing an absurd list to counter an absurd list isnt a viable thing? That makes no sense, riptides arent the only thing that if you unbound list spam them at that point level you cannot beat without doing a similar absurd spamming list.

I agree with this. You can't say using unbound to bring nothing but Riptides is OP because your opponent "needs to use some absurd unbound list to counter it!" (Not to mention some lists mentioned weren't even unbound).

This is what I mean about the extreme bias surrounding the unit.

 BoomWolf wrote:


My point exactly! the problem is the IA, not the riptide itself. once it carries an HBC, he's not a problem, ergo-no one ever made a deal out of him.

This is somewhat true. I'm not sure it won't balance him (it's still a lot of damage output even if you don't overcharge, on a seriously tanky unit, in an army built on range abuse, and OC is always an option), but it would definitely bring him down from "absurdly OP" to just "better than every other unit in every other dex except the Wave Serpent"

 BoomWolf wrote:
With a 3+ save its practically worthless.

This however, shows a pretty big disconnect from reality.

If you are going to be that absurdly biased you have no justification to accuse other people of doing the same lol

So many Strawman arguments, it's kind of pathetic.

The HBC a Riptide is appropriately priced. T6 2+/5++ Mc is not unheard of. Dreadknights has been around a while, and he's easy to kill. 130pts. Sure, he has one fewer wound and is slower, but excels in CC and is a Psyker, with built in Psykic Defense. Heck, pay 30pts for an Heavy Incinerator and against many targets it's deals similar damage, then it's 20pts less has a S6 AP4 Torrent Flamer for Ignores Cover, is slower, is only base 4W though Nova and gets hot actually makes the HBC more vulnerable, and lacks the secondary weapon. Not horribly miss balanced actually.

The Ia is undercosted, not because of its damage. I've already shown that against most targets. It's damage output is similar to a Battlecannon. And at range it fails to fire 1/6 the time, at close range it deals better damage thanks to secondaries. Damage output without considerable Markerlight Support isn't the issue here, even then LRs can match it with an order. It the durability increase that comes with being able to avoid using Its Nova reactor. This makes the IA Riptide undercosted by ~30pts and that is being potentially generous. This is the biggest issue with the Riptide. IA Riptides may be undercosted by ~10-15%, not nearly as bad as many units and the HBC Riptide is pretty close.


To whoever said the Riptide should have a 3+, that is a joke. It deals too much damage to its, but it you removes Gets Hot and the Nova reactor wounds, it would be appropriately prices for the IA Riptide. The HBC would be slightly over costed due to its vulnerability and range restrictions.

Using Tyranid MCs as an example is erroneous, they are over costed, it's one of the main reasons the Turanid codex is too weak. T6 3+ is just durable enough for what they are charging. Reduce their base cost by 10-20% and the Wings upgrade should have been a bit pricier. He'll, they've screwed up Carnifex pricing two codexes in a row, all because they were OP in 4th with T7 and a 2+. Actually tougher than Riptides are now, and that was 4th Ed!

Same problem with Daemon Princes, the base MC is horribly over costed, but has a horrendously undercosted upgrade, Wings to balance them out. Base DP should have been 30pts cheaper and the Wings should have cost 70pts ie 30pts more.

The Wraithknight manages with a 3+ due to sheer toughness. T8 is difficult to deal with. Even plasma wounds half as often as vs T6. IMO the Wraithknighht needed 5 Wounds and should have came stock with the Sword and Shield for 220. The Heavy wraith cannons should have been a 40pt Upgrade, so should have been the Suncannon. It should also have been allowed to fire 3 weapons or counted the HWC as Heavy 2 instead of 2 weapons. Would see different and more balanced configurations. Wraith Constructs should have also reduced Poison to a 5+.

To whomever said that needing ridiculous unbalanced lists to beat 3 Riptides at 750 is a a bit dense or is just trying to troll, I can't tell. 3 Tides in an unbound list at 750pts is as unbalanced as it gets, of course unbalanced lists are needed to beat it. Of course I picked amazing and OP units, they were the easiest to think of an illustrate that many can beat equal points in Riptides. To beat a horrendously unbalanced list you need another unbalanced list. I also did list some Battleforged lists and some that were fairly TAC at that point level. Don't cherry pick.

Ok I think I addressed most everything.


Oh, Vineheart, the Heavy wraith cannon is S10 AP2 Distort, not AP1.

You talk about strawman arguments. Riptide was never compared to the overpriced TMCs, he was compared only to the Carnifex. 150 points is pretty damn balanced for a Carnifex that shoots 12x TL S6 shots as well. Any lower and it would be quite overpowered (Which is a level I suspect you want your Riptide to remain at).
There is no way in hell that Carnifexes are "one of the main reasons the Tyranid codex is too weak". In fact, he's one of the reasons it isn't outright unplayable.

All this aside, it was really just a durability comparison. The Carnifex has 3+, 2 less wounds, no Invul and moves at 6" a turn. And you say 3+ would ruin the Riptide, lol you are being ridiculous and are unlikely to be converting anybody to your cause if you don't formulate sensible arguments.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You talk about strawman arguments. Riptide was never compared to the overpriced TMCs, he was compared only to the Carnifex. 150 points is pretty damn balanced for a Carnifex that shoots 12x TL S6 shots as well. Any lower and it would be quite overpowered (Which is a level I suspect you want your Riptide to remain at).
There is no way in hell that Carnifexes are "one of the main reasons the Tyranid codex is too weak". In fact, he's one of the reasons it isn't outright unplayable.

All this aside, it was really just a durability comparison. The Carnifex has 3+, 2 less wounds, no Invul and moves at 6" a turn. And you say 3+ would ruin the Riptide, lol you are being ridiculous and are unlikely to be converting anybody to your cause if you don't formulate sensible arguments.

You have have tried reading my argument. Your post is a prime example of a Straw Man Fallacy. You have misrepresented and exaggerated my argument to make it easier to attack. Then you attacked me and my argument together, an Ad Hominem.

Firstly, over the course of this thread the Riptide has been compared to Multiple TMCs. My comments were about TMCs in general stating they have been overcosted in their last two codices. Having one undercosted Option on an overpriced MC which results in a decent unit is a poor argument, and is the same as claiming a balanced MC with an underpriced ugrade is OP. Its too simplistic. The base Carnifex is overcosted, 120pts is too much for a T6 4W 3+ MC. The Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms is undercosted, overall it ends up being a balanced choice. Unless you are saying it is so good and undercosted that without it the Tyranid Codex would be "outright Unplayable"? Remember my comments are in reference to BASE MCs. Many of the most popular MCs that are used are on an overpriced chassis with underpriced upgrades. This has been a trend for two editions worth of MCs.

Next time I strongly suggest you have read the entire thread before you comment about its contents. I suggest you read my posts. I also suggest you try and open your mind and stop Nerd Raging at the Riptide. Could it be that you hate it so much because your precious TMCs are on overcosted chassis? Just in case you missed it, that was an ab hominem just for you. I can stoop to that level too, I'd prefer not to for the rest of the thread. Thank you.