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I don't think 120 pts is severly overcosted for an MC with S9 +D3 extra HoW attacks. TL-Devourer is just the sensible choice as it doesn't stop it from doing that at all, and when is S6 spam not going to be in some way useful?

To put it another way, why do you not just look at the entire two units as a package, instead of breaking them down without the upgrades they will almost always be taking? Sure Carnifex without Dakka is not as good, but I imagine its a gakload better than Riptide with no guns. But why the hell is this even relevant?


Yes any comparison to the bad TMCs is pointless as they too are unbalanced. But it's clear this is not at all relevant to you, as comparing it even to a balanced MC is not good enough. It wasn't compared strictly to just the bad TMCs, it was compared to the good ones as well. Your statement that it is erroneous to compare to the "TMCs in general because they are mostly overcosted" is silly, as it does nothing to address the actual sensible comparison to the durability of the properly costed ones. Why are you skirting that?

You keep going on about Strawman. Yet yours is the only arguments it applies to. It's funny that everyone I see use the term, seems to be the only person guilty of the fallacy. I said it's one of the reasons the codex isn't unplayably gak. Not the only reason. Do you think I believe Codex: Carnifex is enough to be the armies only saving grace? Nope, although it is one of the core playable units. Also, if it WAS the only unit that kept the codex afloat, as a balanced unit, it does not make it underpriced, it makes the rest of the codex overcosted.

But once again, on the subject of Strawman, none of what you said addresses anything to do with the underlying statement that Riptide is still better than a Carnifex in absolutely every way except for a tied armor save, even with a 3+ save. This does not make it "practically worthless", or "a joke". You need to spend less time arguing about the delivery of arguments, and actually focus on delivering your own point, because it's coming across badly (very badly).

 SHUPPET wrote:
I don't think 120 pts is severly overcosted for an MC with S9 +D3 extra HoW attacks. TL-Devourer is just the sensible choice as it doesn't stop it from doing that at all, and when is S6 spam not going to be in some way useful?

To put it another way, why do you not just look at the entire two units as a package, instead of breaking them down without the upgrades they will almost always be taking? Sure Carnifex without Dakka is not as good, but I imagine its a gakload better than Riptide with no guns. But why the hell is this even relevant?


Yes any comparison to the bad TMCs is pointless as they too are unbalanced. But it's clear this is not at all relevant to you, as comparing it even to a balanced MC is not good enough. It wasn't compared strictly to just the bad TMCs, it was compared to the good ones as well. Your statement that it is erroneous to compare to the "TMCs in general because they are mostly overcosted" is silly, as it does nothing to address the actual sensible comparison to the durability of the properly costed ones. Why are you skirting that?

You keep going on about Strawman. Yet yours is the only arguments it applies to. It's funny that everyone I see use the term, seems to be the only person guilty of the fallacy. I said it's one of the reasons the codex isn't unplayably gak. Not the only reason. Do you think I believe Codex: Carnifex is enough to be the armies only saving grace? Nope, although it is one of the core playable units. Also, if it WAS the only unit that kept the codex afloat, as a balanced unit, it does not make it underpriced, it makes the rest of the codex overcosted.

But once again, on the subject of Strawman, none of what you said addresses anything to do with the underlying statement that Riptide is still better than a Carnifex in absolutely every way except for a tied armor save, even with a 3+ save. This does not make it "practically worthless", or "a joke". You need to spend less time arguing about the delivery of arguments, and actually focus on delivering your own point, because it's coming across badly (very badly).

How did I misrepresent your argument to make it easier to attack? You certainly did that to my argument. Do you know the definition of Straw Man Fallacy?


Of course the base MC cost is a concern. Of course a unit with particular options is relevant, but the base unit is extremely relevant too. We can have an undercosted base unit with undercosted upgrades, we can have an overcosted unit with overcosted upgrades, we can have an appropratiely costed unit with undercosted upgrades etc. What needs to be examined is the worth of each part, the base unit and its upgrades. Taking an overcosted unit with a particular undercosted option and calling it a balanced unit is wrong, its a balanced choice. The unit itself is still overcosted, it just so happens to have an undercosted upgrade with makes it appropriately costed. Don't over simplify the issue. You are dealing in Blacks and Whites while I am dealing in shades of Grey. Oversimplification is a problem here.

120pts for T6 3+ and 4W at 6"' movement is overcosted. If you feel that it is appropriate, you should feel it has just as much worth running a stock Carnifex as running a Carnifex with dual Brainleech Devourers? If not, then you believe it is overcosted base contrary to your assertion to the contrary.

Lets do a quick comparison between the 150pt Carnifex with Dual Brainleech Devourers and a `80pt Stock Riptide as their weapon load outs are similar.

Carnifex Cons
4 Wounds
3+ AS
6" Movement
18" Range Weapons
Instinctive Behavior
BS3

Carnifex Pros
S9
Melee Ability
Twinlinked Weapon
Fearless
Melee Ability offsets Feed
Psychic Buffs Available

Riptide Cons
BS3
Nova Reactor Risk and Dependence
Gets Hot High RoF Weapon
Vulnerable to CC
Vulnerable to Leadership

Riptide Pros
5W
2+5++
36" Range Weapon
Potential for Rending
Secondary Weapons
Jet Pack
Potential for Markerlight Support


These aren't terribly unbalanced units. The Riptide's reliance on its Nova Reactor and a high Rate of Fire Gets Hot weapon mitigates its initial Resiliancy as it actively kills itself. For example over the course of a 6 turn game the Riptdies deals 3.33 wounds to itself. By turn 3 an enemy has to deal on average 3.33 wounds though a T6 2+/5++ vs the 4 Wounds at T6 3+. The Carnifex's Weapons are much more accurate and damaging against a variety of opponents when within the limited range, but the Riptide has access to longer ranged weaponry and secondary weapons. The Riptide is abysmal in CC and tries to avoid it while the Carnifex is a monster in CC and looks to engage in CC when possible. Both have access to support in the form of Resiliency in FNP and Run +Shoot for increased Mobility whereas the Riptide gains only increased offense potential. When screened for a 5+ cover save the Carnifex closes the resiliency gap against high strength low AP weaponry.

Overall, the gap between the two units gets closed quite a bit when you add Brainleech Devourers to the mix. IMO the Carnifex is still a bit undercosted mainly due to its fragile frame for 120pts it should have a 5th wound and the BLDs should be 20pts a piece.

We need to look at base units in addition to their potential upgrades when determining what is priced appropriately and what is not.

I going to try and raise the maturity level of our last couple of posts. We are adults and should be able to have a civilized discourse.

Thank you.

Without yet saying 3+ is necessary in a world where they can't take IA, as it stands the statement was made about giving it 3+ save without taking away the IA makes it "practically worthless" which is outright laughable. One of the strongest units in the game going to unplayable because he only has power armour and not terminator? Seriously doubtful.

Now on to the HBC Riptide. ASSUMING no Nova, it's putting out 8 S6 ap 4 shots a turn and whatever secondar weapons it has., call it SMS that's another 5 S5 AP5 shots a turn. Compared to the no AP of Devourers, this is a similar amount of firepower, if slightly less. But factor in that you will be shooting from turn 1 onwards unlike Carnifex who often needs to run up the centre of the board opening him up to shooting, just to get a TURN 2 volley on something that isn't backfield, this quickly gives the advantage over to the RIPTIDES way, even factoring in Twin linked from the Devvies. Then you have the fact that the Riptide can take Skyfire, and a bunch of other options. Then the fact that you aren't even Novashooting the HBC and you realise that if you have done the 3 wounds to yourself over 6 turns, you have also spent 6 turns of firing 150% of your main fire again! plus rending. This is an extremely powerful OPTION. At 30 pts more than a Dakkafex, I'm pretty sure HBC Riptide having double the range and triple the manuevarability of a Carnifex, similar firepower, with the option to further increase it by 150% (I mean even if you do take a wound, and even then you still have the number of wounds left that a Carnifex starts with), as well as having an Invul, I think all this is more an enough to justify 30 pts higher without him needing Terminator armour as opposed to Carni's.

And it undeniably would not make him unplayable either way. He would still be extremely powerful.

I would just like to ask you Zagman...why do you consider the Carnifex good at CC? Is it because everything you hear about on the internet?

Look at the stats for the thing;

WS3 S9 A3. So IF it gets the charge it will get D3 HoW at S9 AP-, say against the Riptide, chances are no damage from the HoW. Next up it swings at the Riptide hitting a mighty TWO times on the charge, three if the odds are in your favor, and let's go ahead and assume the best case scenario for the CC Carnifex and say that it has two sets of CC weapons and not the ever prevalent 2x Brainleech Devourers. So then at best it is swinging in with 3 HoW, not going to hurt the Riptide on average, 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hits, and 4 wounds. Again, giving the Carnifex the benefit on all the statistics. Off those 4 wounds only about 3 go through with only the 5+++, but with a 3++/5++ then you are seeing only about 1 wound go through on the Riptide. Then the Riptide can turn around and get in say, 1/2 a wound a turn if the dice go against you.

I mean, this is playing fast a loose with the numbers here to give a ROUGH idea of how that fight would go down and it doesn't look terrible for the Riptide. The worst case scenario for the Riptide isn't going to happen often and outside of that the Carnifex isn't exactly tearing things up in CC.

Carnifex and Genestealers are held up to this legacy that they will never again be even close to.

My POINT is...that compared to other MCs the Riptide puts out more damage, is more survivable, and is faster than all of its competition with maybe the exception of the Wraithknigth.

Comparing the Riptide to TMC's, the Avatar, C'tan Shards, Greater Daemons, etc, is why so many people say it is OP. It outclasses almost everything in its class.

Yeah while the Carnifex isn't bad in CC, there certainly isn't a league of difference between it and the Riptide.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Thank you.

Without yet saying 3+ is necessary in a world where they can't take IA, as it stands the statement was made about giving it 3+ save without taking away the IA makes it "practically worthless" which is outright laughable. One of the strongest units in the game going to unplayable because he only has power armour and not terminator? Seriously doubtful.

Now on to the HBC Riptide. ASSUMING no Nova, it's putting out 8 S6 ap 4 shots a turn and whatever secondar weapons it has., call it SMS that's another 5 S5 AP5 shots a turn. Compared to the no AP of Devourers, this is a similar amount of firepower, if slightly less. But factor in that you will be shooting from turn 1 onwards unlike Carnifex who often needs to run up the centre of the board opening him up to shooting, just to get a TURN 2 volley on something that isn't backfield, this quickly gives the advantage over to the RIPTIDES way, even factoring in Twin linked from the Devvies. Then you have the fact that the Riptide can take Skyfire, and a bunch of other options. Then the fact that you aren't even Novashooting the HBC and you realise that if you have done the 3 wounds to yourself over 6 turns, you have also spent 6 turns of firing 150% of your main fire again! plus rending. This is an extremely powerful OPTION. At 30 pts more than a Dakkafex, I'm pretty sure HBC Riptide having double the range and triple the manuevarability of a Carnifex, similar firepower, with the option to further increase it by 150% (I mean even if you do take a wound, and even then you still have the number of wounds left that a Carnifex starts with), as well as having an Invul, I think all this is more an enough to justify 30 pts higher without him needing Terminator armour as opposed to Carni's.

And it undeniably would not make him unplayable either way. He would still be extremely powerful.

You have been misinterpreting one of my previous comments. With a 3+ the HBC Riptide would deal 4.66 Wounds to itself over the course of a game. That is extreme and of terrible design, it also would make the IA mandatory instead of a mere option, that is why it is a bad suggestion and unplayable Then the Riptide would effectively be much much more vulnerable than a Carnifex.

Yes, the Riptide can take a Skyfire option, at another 20pts or 11% increase in price whereas the Carnifex is by default moderately effective vs flyers.

SMS is only Heavy 4.

You failed to mention CC. Or T1 if an enemy advances the Carnifex is shooting T1 as well. I have said TMCs are overpriced, you assert the Brainleech Carnifex is appropriately priced, you also assert the Riptide is much better, your assertions lead to a defacto conclusion.


@Arbiter_Shade

Lose the insults.

The Carnifex is good in CC vs most targets. Assuming it is in combat with a riptide is as all sample size. Carnifexes aren't vulnerable to multiaddault breaking and are less likely to be tar pitted.

S9 wounds almost every MC on 2s, it heals a good number of attacks on the charge. They also double out T4 models without Smashing. Their Melee Attacks are effective against all vehicles with Smashing. Are you saying 3 Attacks at S9 AP2 in Melee is bad? With additional HoW?

Even against a Riptide in CC with neither charging the Carnifex deals ~150% the damage the Riptide does, 1.1 Wound vs .75. The Riptide can be broken and run down by a higher it Carnifex. Carnifexes can't be broken and run down.


TMCs are over costed as I have stated and tried to backup. The Avatar is expensive but an absolute Monster in CC with access to doubletqp BS10 Melta. C'Tan shards are a bad 5th ed leftover that were never appropriately costed, Greater Daemons are entirely different,mall are better in CC, two are FMCS, Psykers, one is T7 with many more wounds. Direct comparison is nearly impossible.

The Dreadknights is actually a good comparison due to a similar chassis and even it is a 5th edition leftover. The Wraithknigt is very powerful and if we do a comparison I have no doubt that it is a better deal than a riptide.

[Excuse the typo on the 5, was meant to be 4, and all calculations were relevant to it]

You have been misinterpreting one of my previous comments. With a 3+ the HBC Riptide would deal 4.66 Wounds to itself over the course of a game. That is extreme and of terrible design, it also would make the IA mandatory instead of a mere option, that is why it is a bad suggestion and unplayable Then the Riptide would effectively be much much more vulnerable than a Carnifex.

Well, the IA practically is mandatory instead of an option as is. I thought we were talking about IA being definitely OP and ruled out as an option and going from there for balancing the Riptide. And my point is, that HBC Riptide without the novashots EVERYTURN, still matches Carnifex for shooting and has the option for Nova shots. He also has far more mobility and survivability, and range than the Carnifex. It's only a 30 pt difference and this is more than justified. Gets Hot is only a factor if you are even further increasing the benefits you have on Carnifex.

Issues like being out of range, and getting shot up out of cover are not always going to be an issue for Carnifex - but they will never (or almost never) be an issue for Riptide, so its still a big plus he has

 SHUPPET wrote:
[Excuse the typo on the 5, was meant to be 4, and all calculations were relevant to it

You have been misinterpreting one of my previous comments. With a 3+ the HBC Riptide would deal 4.66 Wounds to itself over the course of a game. That is extreme and of terrible design, it also would make the IA mandatory instead of a mere option, that is why it is a bad suggestion and unplayable Then the Riptide would effectively be much much more vulnerable than a Carnifex.
]

Well, the IA practically is mandatory instead of an option as is. I thought we were talking about IA being definitely OP and ruled out as an option and going from there for balancing the Riptide. And my point is, that HBC Riptide without the novashots EVERYTURN, still matches Carnifex for shooting and has the option for Nova shots. He also has far more mobility and survivability, and range than the Carnifex. It's only a 30 pt difference and this is more than justified. Gets Hot is only a factor if you are even further increasing the benefits you have on Carnifex.

Issues like being out of range, and getting shot up out of cover are not always going to be an issue for Carnifex - but they will never (or almost never) be an issue for Riptide, so its still a big plus he has

And choosing not to use your Nova Reactor greatly reduces the Riptides effectiveness. When in range, the the Fex's shooting is more effective vs a variety of targets including light AV, high T targets, and models with a 3+ or 2+ AS. Even with a VT the non Nova HBC is marginally more effective, without it's not even a comparison. That reduced firepower directly results in an increase in durability and is pretty balanced. Assuming the SMS is not a guarantee, Fusion Blasters are pretty common as well due to Tau's difficulty in dealing with high AV Targets. The move to Mech in 7th is going to increase the popularity of TLFBs over SMS.

These units are not completely balanced, the Riptide is better in general game conditions and is only 30pts more expensive before upgrades. The only thing we can conclude is that the Riptide is more effective and is likely a better value per point. That does not prove the Dakkafex is a point appropriate model, remember I've asserted it's undercosted as an FMC.


What is really needed is to take ever common MC in the game in their base configuration and compare them against each other. Care should be taken to keep the MCs 5th and 6th ed origins in mind. Then, each MC needs to be taken in its optimal configurations and these need to be compared to both their base configurations and each other. Then and only then can we determine how each Mc fairs in its base and optimal configurations. It would also tell us if each base MC is appropriately costed to each other and the relative worth of each upgrade.


I know it's anecdotal, but I mostly field HBC Riptides with TLFB Stims and VTs on a competitive level, one always has an ECPA. Only when I field 3 or O'Vesa Do I field an IA Riptide. My Tides serve as AA and Anti FMC as I'm not using Skyrays. I generally use Burst Suits with Gun Drones, MP Suits, and FB suits for other targets. Yes, I was running Triptode competitively with MSU units. In 6th I relied on a BuffCommander to join a Riptide and really make them shine. In 7th Riptides will not be ass effective and will rely on Markerlights so much more. They will still be very good, but no where near the levels of 6th. I've seen what an opponent putting down four IA Riptides looks like, and it wasn't that effective. I've also seen a Quintide list at 1850, it didn't do well at all. Even in 6th Spamming IA Riptides was not the answer and quickly became detrimental to the list against good competitive lists.

Spamming IA Riptides is a viable strategy, but unbalances lists quickly. They are poor AA even with VTs and less than stellar vs Light and Mid AV. They may be ultra durable, but they are an auto win. They do excel at taking out elite infantry, but their ideal target profile is limited. Many armies can ignore them until they can engage them in CC or counter them in a different way. Without Markerlight Support you have a very expensive Pie Plate that still grants cover saves, fails to fire 1/6 shots, and Brings little but durability.

Fair enough on the Skyfire Calcs, Dakkafex is naturally good at that and you are paying for that AA on Riptide. I will concede that they are more or less evenly balanced on this level


However with IA its just a silly model. Just silly silly silly to say the thing is balanced as is, or that a 3+ save would make it unplayable.


I don't think Dakkafex is undercosted, at his old cost he was never taken. Ever. And that was when he had the option of drop pod mobility as well. He was only reduced 30 points, very unlikely that he was sufficiently balanced somewhere in between and if so the difference would be marginal.

Regardless, if you do think he is undercosted, and you agree Riptide is far better in general (which I think is pretty apparent as well) for only 30 pts more, and this includes facing none of Carnifexe's inherit issues like range and mobility, then I don't see how you can say Riptide is not over-powered.

And choosing not to use your Nova Reactor greatly reduces the Riptides effectiveness. When in range, the the Fex's shooting is more effective vs a variety of targets including light AV, high T targets, and models with a 3+ or 2+ AS. Even with a VT the non Nova HBC is marginally more effective, without it's not even a comparison. That reduced firepower directly results in an increase in durability and is pretty balanced. Assuming the SMS is not a guarantee, Fusion Blasters are pretty common as well due to Tau's difficulty in dealing with high AV Targets. The move to Mech in 7th is going to increase the popularity of TLFBs over SMS.

Yes choosing not to use your Nova reduces your firepower - which is exactly my point, when you factor in 4 more S5 AP5 shots for free to even up the number of shots, and having all AP4-5 evens the score a little would you not say, if not quite matching Fex due to its TL. Against Vehicles, only 8x S6 shots can definitely do damage, 4 more shots will help, but STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO NOVA. Even if it gives you a wound, which usually takes 2 turns even with +3, you still have as many wounds as the Dakkafex did. And a bunch of other options. And 4x S5 shots. Or, as you said, the option of FB's (an option that Dakkafex does NOT have, you cannot list your CHOICE to drop your SMS missiles for this as a downside the Riptide has LOL - and Tyanids have far more trouble with high AV than Tau does).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Riptide is a really cool concept and an even cooler model. I don't want to see him unplayable, however it sucks that he is so "easy mode" and should have inherit risks for such amazing firepower. The mobility is ok and plays to the armies strengths, the durability is too much. Far too much. In 5th Tau was built around winning with careful play choices, its a shame they couldn't translate this into the 6th better, while obviously fixing the crap tier stuff. I was looking to pick up a copy of the new Tau dex when it dropped, then I saw the crazyness and could not do it.

You keep returning to the IA as the reason to why 3+ armor is a good idea, even though we shown clearly that with 3+ armor the HBC is outright unplayable. (dealing 4.66 wounds to itself over the course of a game!)
We are looking at a riptide under the assumption that the IA does NOT exist to see if he's fair, and when we see that while the IA does not exist he is fair, while with it he is OP, the obvious conclusion is that the riptide itself is balanced, and the IA is broken.
So why cant you just accept the fact that the problem does not come from the body of the riptide, but from the IA upgrade itself? THATS what's braking the riptide.
High toughness, high wounds, terminator armor? without them the HBCtide would be less durable then a simple crisis suit.

The same applied to the 6th edition heldrake. hades autocannon? good but fair. baleflamer? completely overpowered. why? because baleflamer had 360 arc that completely invalidated the heldrake's need to position properly in order to shoot (so you could both take full advantage of VS and shoot normally), taking away its major problem of not being able to pull off both weapons at once effectively (or at all) and taking away the need to ever hover (and risking yourself). it made him OP not because the baleflamer was innately much better then the hades autocannon, but because it interacted too well with the rest of the model and removed his weaknesses (not any more now that its hull-mounted and not turret)


The overcharge on the HBC deals, between NOVA itself and "gets hot" 3.333 wounds on the riptide, slightly more then every other turn, a fact you KEEP ignoring for the last two pages.
And as mathmatically shown before (by anti-riptide's side no less), the damage output without it is subpar.
Even compared to the dakkafex (who is widely considered underpowered and generally looked at as a subpar unit) the non-nova HBC has 8 S6AP4 shots and 4 TL S5AP5 shots, while the dakkafex pumps 12 TL S6 shots, meaning more hits with higher S value, and we both know AP4-5 is hardly even relevant in this game, even when the AP5 ignores cover the dakkafex will outshoot the non-nova HBC on any possible target in the game. and the riptide has no real power BUT shooting, while the fex can do a good work in CC against most targets.
If you don't overcharge alot, your HBC riptide is a bad investment, and well get outshot even by basic infantry of most armies.

Not once did I return to the IA. Every time that Zagman returned to it I completely discounted the fact that it would be unplayable with 3+ save, then moved back off the IA Riptide and on to the HBC one.

HBC Riptide (no novas) out damages Carni thanks to the fact that it's shooting on turn 1 with double range and larger target selection. It has AP4-5 to make up for 1 point less S on only 4 of its shots. It then has triple the mobility of a Carnifex. It also has an extra wound and a strong ass Invul. Then after all that, it can Nova, pushing its firepower even further, at the risk of Gets Hot. All this for 30 pts.

But hey, wasn't it you who said That even Riptides with IA are useless with a 3+ save.

You are bad at this. Like it or not, The cheese factory that is Riptide will be nerfed in the next Tau release. Maybe if you start being realistic with your opinions on necessary change, you might just get some good karma and be left with something playable. =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now let me just clarify something - I don't even think with a 3+ save the thing is balanced. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to argue that the Riptide is balanced and would be useless with a 3+ save - it's an unhealthy amount of bias shown towards your army. Try to get a clear perspective and look at how quite undeniably OP it currently is.

All I'm hearing.is "I.want to use nova every turn but it will hurt me waaaaaahhhh"

Get over it, 4.66 wounds.over the course of a game makes it unplayable, bull, it forces you to decide whether or not to actually activate the charge rather than just doing it every turn, and correct me if I'm wrong 6 shots from the hbc? Plus 4 from the sms, that's pretty good alone.

Your striking me as someone who wants his cake and to eat it, tide needs a nerf and a 3+ save would help that, or loss of the invun, either of those would go a long way to making it balanced.

Even then, if it takes those 4 wounds it means its lived to turn 6 anyway and has no doubt aced a lot of stuff with 6 turns of Nova shooting.

After every second turn of nova shooting with a 3+ save it takes average 1 wound, making it a still a T6 4W range dictacting JSJ nightmare for everything of its class, and so on and so forth. Oh your low on wounds and your Riptide is in threat range? Poor you, you might just have to settle for 8 S6 AP4 and 4 S5 AP 5 shots.

Even HBC Riptide outdamages, out tanks, and out maneuvers all other models in its size bracket, and that's without nova. Nova gives it them option to transmute some of that ridiculous tankiness into even more firepower. Show me a single 200 pt MC that matches it for firepower. There is none. Even if some get close, they are completely outclassed by his mobility, range, and the fact that he gets terminator armour when almost everything else gets power armour.

Defending this cheese machine just hurts your own credibility.

Sorry, but you are just talking nonsens, completely discounter the fact it would be unplayalbe with 3+ save under HBC limitations?!

No one, and I mean NO ONE. not a single army in the game, would take an HBC riptide with a 3+, even at 20 points discount. he's just impractical, losing out both on the durability side and the offensive side to the point he CANT do his job.

The full-nova effects of 3+ armor are 4.66 self wounds over the game on average. (you still ignore that) meaning that it would have about the durability of a single tactical marine.
The non-nova effects, while you claim "only 4 shots are lower S" also ignore the reduced accuracy, the riptide will hit 3 S% hits and 4 S6, the dakkafex hits 9 S6 hits. so its 2 extra S6 hits, and upgrading 3 hits from 5 to 6. a RELEVANT change against any target in the game that is lower then AV13 and higher then T2 or single wound T3.

Yes, the riptide will shot first, but the dakkafex WILL outshoot it. and attempting the feeble grab of the AP values is a joke, they do not apply against most relevant targets anyway, and when they do-they hardly make a difference due to cover. the dakkafex will then continue to be a decent CC unit, and cost less to begin with.
The riptides edge in mobility and durability becomes irrelevant as there is no point even shooting at it when it refuses to NOVA, he just won't get anything meaningful done anyway.

The HBC riptide under the assumption of no-nova barely brakes even against a dakkafex in pure shooting abilities. a cheaper, suboptimal MC that is not even wholly shooting dedicated like the riptide is. the HBC riptide under the assumption of full-nova goes far beyond dakkafex, but becomes more fragile then him, and as a pure-shooter SHOULD out-shoot a non-pure shooter.

The only place the HBC really beats the dakkafex in a meaningful way on cost/effect levels, is when educated decisions when to nova and when to avoid are made, such decisions can also be mistakes and lead to a downgrade in over-game efficiency and as such we cannot simply assume perfect choices will be made.
And the dakkafex is a subpar unit. not a top-tier one.

You keep hanging on to things that were proven mathematically wrong, in-game wrong, disproved on multiple levels, rebuted multiple times and were found lacking for a long time now. in fact, you still hang on to nonsense we dismissed in the weeks after the codex came out when we (tau-dedicated) have judged every single unit in the codex, in every single setup, and the obvious conclusion is that there is almost never a good reason to take HBC riptide as they are on a competitive viewpoint. they are no vespids or stealth suits who barely manage even is casual games, but they are FAR from top-tier choices, and every single job we are looking for can be better filled by another unit. the HBC's only saving grace was that he's well-rounded and acts as a "jack of all trades" type of unit, but once we factor in the fact tau is the army that can shift his focus mid-game with markerlights channeling added efficency to changing specialists, you don't need jacks, you need specialists.


"The cheese factory that is Riptide will be nerfed in the next Tau release." shows if anything that YOU are the one biased.
Let me asked you this, have you ever, even ONCE faced HBC riptide without the ECPA? let alone multiples? or are you working with internet-base assumptions?
You don't even thing he's balanced at 3+ save, a point PROVEN that he almost kills himself on his own without a single shot fired at him if he attempts to shoot well.
I'll repeat it again-nobody would field an HBC riptide with a 3+ save for cost near what it is now, nobody. EVER. not even in casual games where we run silly units like vespids and stealth suits from time to time. not me, not you, not anyone. maybe just once, then actually see how badly it preforms and say "never again". in ANY army, not just in tau. its not worth it, and the fact you somehow justify he is in your mind just shows how much you have initial bias against any and all riptides, without even considering the MASSIVE difference we time after time have shown between the two breeds.
Its like you don't even read anything we write, as you pretty much ignore it, so at this point I'll do myself a favor and stop answer you.

(And before you become a smartass, having the "last word" and me giving up on you won't make you right, that's a 6-years-old logic. people like you appear in any game that insist something they don't like is OP even when UP and things they like are UP even when OP.)

(And before you try to throw the same thing at me, I'll let you know I rarely field riptides at all. my record so far is 1 riptide. in tournaments. I am NOT a riptide fanboy, not even close.)
(Yes, I'm also pretty good at neutralizing counter-arguments before people even say them. I've been down this road more times then you can imagine on more topics then you can imagine. I know all the fallacies out there, and I can see them coming before people even say them. nothing quite takes the rug under the feet of such an argument then answering it before it even came up.)

LOL you don't know what bias means. Bias is when you are predisposed to think one way or another. IE the fact that you are a Tau player makes you not want to admit that something ridiculously OP, simply because its a staple for you. The fact that I have no such bias, and can see that the Riptide is heading directly towards a nerf, shows that I am actually unbiased in this account, as I'm taking in the facts and not letting personal judgement cloud my mind. What on earth would make you think the current domination of the Riptide is going to result in anything but it being nerfed?

There is no reason to take HBC Riptide, simply because he has an IA cannon. Or did you and your expert team of Tau analysts plan for this conversation here as well where we are talking about the HBC Riptide in a vacuum where the IA is no longer an upgrade for Riptide?

The riptides edge in mobility and durability becomes irrelevant as there is no point even shooting at it when it refuses to NOVA, he just won't get anything meaningful done anyway

Lol you aren't "refusing to nova" you just don't have to spam it every shot every game, if you think the chance at self wounding is not worth the payoff this turn. It takes 2 turns to even take 1 wound on average. Oh my. So crippling. He comes with 5 of them, T6 and a 5+ manipulable invul save.

It's so hilarious that you refuse to admit that a 3+ HBC Riptide is playable, it's hardly even relevant as the Riptide will always have IA, it's just entertaining to see the lengths you will go to defend the current Riptide needing it's broken ass stats.

If Dakkafex sees a bunch of play amongst Tyranids, it's obviously not unplayable. If HBC Riptide almost completely outclasses it, it's quite clearly not unplayable either, nor is it subpar. You would still play it, you just wouldn't get the results that you get with the current overpowered implementation of the Riptide. Which is, in fact, the point.


INB4 another mindless post about 3+ Riptides being forced to kill themselves every game when iits clearly not how it works in practice. Maths doesn't account for the fact that you are dealing 150% more damage, cutting down the amount of recieved wounds, and a bunch of other events that could come into play by TURN FREAKING 6. Oh or you could just, you know, not Nova when you get low on Wounds or if in threat range of something capable of putting hurt on it, and settle that turn for the firepower better than absolutely every other MC of it's size (if not Dakkafex, please, show me an MC that matches it for firepower at 180 or less - hell make it 200). But, damn, that would take decision making and judgement skills, and that's much harder than CHARGING MAH LAZORS




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On second thoughts, I think I'm going to bow out of this argument. The people who claim Riptide is not OP and also just happen to be Tau players are clearly not being honest even with themselves. Labelling a model that even with heavy nerfs still outclasses every other MC in its points bracket as "practically worthless" is beyond stupid. This debate doesn't affect me, and the people that it does affect and are obviously trying to defend their personal stake in it, also obviously have no purpose listening to reason. I'll check out Tau when their next dex drops, if its at a reasonable power level I'll pick up the dex and crack my Tau back out. But till then, thanks for reminding me, and reinforcing the stereotype in general that this army attracts "certain types of players".

lol

"Oh noes, if the Riptide only has a 3+/5++ save and Nova charges every turn then by turn 6 it will only be as durable as a T6 marine with a 5++ save and superior mobility, range and firepower! Woe is me!"

Just so you know, statistically speaking Jinking or going at cruising speed hurts the Annihilation Barge's firepower more than not Nova Charging the HBC hurts the Riptide's firepower- 3.66/5.33 hits on the TL destructor is 68.75% firepower, 1/2 hits on the Tesla Cannon is 50% for the secondary. This is as opposed to a Riptide "dropping" to 66.6% firepower from its primary and keeping 100% firepower on its secondary.

This also ignores the fact that Annihilation Barges tend to snuff it in the early game when more firepower is generally being tossed about and they stand out as primary targets for anti-tank weaponry and almost always have to cruise on turn one to get into weapons range, while Riptides significantly outrange and outmaneuver most battlefield threats and barring freak accidents almost never come under threat of dying until well into the late game if EVER.

Forgive me if the cries of "my Riptide will be terribly easy to kill by turn 6" do not move me when I generally consider it a miracle if my Barges survive that long.

Zagman I don't know where you read an insult in my post and I am sorry for any offense that I caused you, I never intended to insult you.

It does not matter if an MC is from 5th or 6th, because you seem to have an idea that they are going to change drastically in 6th and that just isn't true if the Tyranid codex is anything to go by. Even if it is true, isn't that kind of power creep a problem? Isn't saying that MC written for 6th vastly overpower those written for 5th proving the point that the Riptide IS OP?

The Carnifex is slightly better than the Riptide in CC against anything that isn't a vehicle, against vehicles the Carnifex is WORLDS better but the thing is, if the player with the vehicle is even slightly decent at the game they can avoid the Carnifex the entire game and kite it. Not to mention the fact that the Carnifex needs to get into CC in order for it to be any good in that situation and as we all know assault isn't doing so great the past three editions.

The best and only way to compare the Riptide to the Carnifex is by doing it to a dakkafex. A Riptide with a HBC/TLSMS and Simulant injector with Pathfinder support vs a Dakkafex with Catalyst. Both scenarios require the support of another unit, one isn't even a guarantee when building your list. The Riptide WITHOUT Nova will be shooting at, say, BS5 8 S6 AP4 at 36" and 4 S5 AP5 at 30" that ignores cover and is TL with a 2+/5++/5+++ T6 5W. The Carnifex is shooting a BS3 12 S6 AP6 at 24" with 3+/5+++ T6 W4. Even without the Nova charge the Riptide isn't that far off from the damage potential of the Carnifex while at the same time being hardier and faster.

But I have to agree with Shuppet at this point, after reading that "A 3+ Riptide would be USELESS!" I just can't take this argument seriously anymore. These is such a lack of perspective for someone to even begin to think that a Riptide would be useless because it might kill itself over 6 TURNS, how on earth do you justify this? Why do you need it to last PAST 6 turns? By that point the game is literally over and if you had that many rounds of uninterrupted Riptide destruction I would say things have been going GREAT for you. It is the same thing I think about when I hear IG players that complain about the Executioner having a chance to kill itself after about, you guessed it, 6 turns. So what? The amount of damage you are spitting out makes up for the fact that you might actually lose a model.

 Galorian wrote:
lol

"Oh noes, if the Riptide only has a 3+/5++ save and Nova charges every turn then by turn 6 it will only be as durable as a T6 marine with a 5++ save and superior mobility, range and firepower! Woe is me!"

Just so you know, statistically speaking Jinking or going at cruising speed hurts the Annihilation Barge's firepower more than not Nova Charging the HBC hurts the Riptide's firepower- 3.66/5.33 hits on the TL destructor is 68.75% firepower, 1/2 hits on the Tesla Cannon is 50% for the secondary. This is as opposed to a Riptide "dropping" to 66.6% firepower from its primary and keeping 100% firepower on its secondary.

This also ignores the fact that Annihilation Barges tend to snuff it in the early game when more firepower is generally being tossed about and they stand out as primary targets for anti-tank weaponry and almost always have to cruise on turn one to get into weapons range, while Riptides significantly outrange and outmaneuver most battlefield threats and barring freak accidents almost never come under threat of dying until well into the late game if EVER.

Forgive me if the cries of "my Riptide will be terribly easy to kill by turn 6" do not move me when I generally consider it a miracle if my Barges survive that long.

Exactly... The only time my riptides came a real cropper was due to a centurion fly-by with a storm raven


That being said Eldar Wraithknights are almost equally nasty, yet are shockingly absent in this argument partly because of waveserpents being far better. The IA is undercosted thats true, but looking at the Wraithknight and riptide together there are fundemental differences in how they are durable. The riptide has a 2+/5+ or 3+ if you nova (inherent risk in doing this of course) yet is only toughness 6 with 5 wounds, the wraithknight tots a 'mere' toughness of 8 (and 6 wounds...)which makes it far harder to kill with the weapons that usually get shot at riptides, therefore countering the 3+ save (also not ignoring the 5+ with the shield). Oh and lets not forget it is a dab handy at waltzing over to any unit and giving it a good pasting in CC. Something which the riptide cannot do. A very slick balance here by GW standards, low save but high toughness and more wounds, with an opposite of a lower toughness and wounds with a 'better' save.

The Nid MCs are a bad lot due to the fact that they are costed all over the place, yet if they followed the Riptide and Wraithiknight example then things would be different, and arguablly better.

Ritides get the flak because their usage is a simple formula: get into firing position; markerlight the target: fire the riptide at it: jump move in the assault phase to move into a safer postion ready to react next turn. Quite a few times i've warned people to "kill those markerlight units otherwise the Riptides will have a field day" yet they ignored that advice and suffered as a result.

In my group at least Ritpides are hardly a problem, Daemon FMCs and twin Wraithknights gather far more whines for good reason.

Just my humble opinion...

Oh and Just to add fuel to the fire, has anybody in this debate actaully bothered to look at the FW Ri'varna Riptide at all? That add another twist...

 SHUPPET wrote:
Not once did I return to the IA. Every time that Zagman returned to it I completely discounted the fact that it would be unplayable with 3+ save, then moved back off the IA Riptide and on to the HBC one.

HBC Riptide (no novas) out damages Carni thanks to the fact that it's shooting on turn 1 with double range and larger target selection. It has AP4-5 to make up for 1 point less S on only 4 of its shots. It then has triple the mobility of a Carnifex. It also has an extra wound and a strong ass Invul. Then after all that, it can Nova, pushing its firepower even further, at the risk of Gets Hot. All this for 30 pts.

But hey, wasn't it you who said That even Riptides with IA are useless with a 3+ save.

You are bad at this. Like it or not, The cheese factory that is Riptide will be nerfed in the next Tau release. Maybe if you start being realistic with your opinions on necessary change, you might just get some good karma and be left with something playable. =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now let me just clarify something - I don't even think with a 3+ save the thing is balanced. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to argue that the Riptide is balanced and would be useless with a 3+ save - it's an unhealthy amount of bias shown towards your army. Try to get a clear perspective and look at how quite undeniably OP it currently is.

Ok, I never ever said the Dakkafex was undercosted, I said overcosted. I think the Dakkafex should be cheaper. It costs too many points because its chasis is overcosted. The Brainleech devorers being a steal helps, but the chassis if overcosted, not under. I don't think I can make this any more clear.

To the IA Riptide, I said that it would be mandatory if the Riptide had a 3+. The HBC would be unplayable, but the IA Riptide would be manageable.


How did you misinterpret what I was saying? And they say exactly what I said and attack me for it?

@Formosa

Please grow up, the goal was to keep this mature.

@Arbiter_Shade

"Is it becasue everything you hear about on the internet?" Is an insult by insinuation.

I don't care if you can't take this argument seriously anymore, because you have obviously not understood what I had written. The 3+AS is terrible for the HBC Riptide, the IA would still be ok and playable. What about the words I am writing do you two fail to understand.



STRAW MAN FALLACY: If you exaggerate or misrepresent my argument to make it easier to attack, you are guilty. Seriously people, grow up a bit and accuratley represent another's argument.

@Galorian

Are we supposed to feel back about Annhilation Barges not being good enough or surviving? Laugable.

 Zagman wrote:

Please grow up, the goal was to keep this mature.

Oh the irony.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Please grow up, the goal was to keep this mature.

Oh the irony.

And how have I not been mature?

All I'm hearing.is "I.want to use nova every turn but it will hurt me waaaaaahhhh"

Was unnecessary.

 Zagman wrote:
@Galorian

Are we supposed to feel back about Annhilation Barges not being good enough or surviving? Laugable.

Way to miss the point...

All those comparisons between the point for point value of the Riptide compared to the undercosted Annihilation Barge completely ignored the fact that in practice Riptides are likely to stay on the board twice as long as Barges and all talk of "sacrificing durability for firepower" apply just as well for the Barge, only that the Barge has to sacrifice over a third of its firepower to have a better chance of not dying that very moment while a Riptide that boosts its firepower only becomes seriously "endangered" somewhere around turn 4-6 (by which point there's a very good chance the Barges are already gone).

All the while the Riptide also happens to be overall faster AND longer ranged.

 Zagman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Please grow up, the goal was to keep this mature.

Oh the irony.

And how have I not been mature?

All I'm hearing.is "I.want to use nova every turn but it will hurt me waaaaaahhhh"

Was unnecessary.

Condescension is immature.

I don't care if it's immature, it's true, when I use my land speeder vengeance I have to choose between the 3 shots likely to overheat or the large blast and less likely to overheat, so with a 3+ you'd have to do the same, so what, "waaah" my riptide is subject to the rules and weaknesses of everything else that has gets hot... Shame.

Are you even reading what we said?

We said that the gets hot and nova effects make him FAIR, and that without the armor THEN he would be lousy. (HBC relevant only)

And did you seriously compare to the LSV right now? a model that is considered outright junk in efficiency that should never be taken seriously....

You aren't reading what anybody else has said.

We said that with 3+ save and HBC he would still be more, or at least as powerful as anything in his class.

Find me another MC that puts out as much firepower as 8x S6 AP4 + 4x S5 AP5 shots a turn, for 180 points or lower. Then find me one that has the option to make that 12x S6 AP4 shots with rending at the cost of 1 wound every 2 turns (yes, that is factoring in 3+ save), has the mobility of a Riptide and a 5+ Invul save.

You know, never mind that second half, as we BOTH know all that just makes him outlandish. How about just finding me one MC that matches him for basic, no nova, HBC firepower, at his points cost or lower. Should be easy if this makes him so terrible. You said Dakkafex was an UP model, so find me a MC that is closer to Riptides power than the Dakkafex.

I've asked you multiple times to do it. You can't. Because all MC's at this points cost are at a much lower power level than the Riptide. They do not have this sort of firepower available. This is the power level Riptide should be at. You do not understand this, because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OP MC. But all other <180 pt MC's sit at a power level, dare I say it, LOWER THAN HBC RIPTIDE WITH A 3+ ARMOR SAVE. Oh my god, it's frightening isn't it, the concept of not having a ridicuously underpriced killing machine available that cheaply. How do the rest of us even get by!?

But please, feel free to prove me wrong - it's as easy as showing me what the other "balanced" MC's are that can match a HBC Riptide at less than 200 pts. The precedent and balance level for MC's is much lower than you want to admit.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You aren't reading what anybody else has said.

We said that with 3+ save and HBC he would still be more, or at least as powerful as anything in his class.

Find me another MC that puts out as much firepower as 8x S6 AP4 + 4x S5 AP5 shots a turn, for 180 points or lower. Then find me one that has the option to make that 12x S6 AP4 shots with rending at the cost of 1 wound every 2 turns (yes, that is factoring in 3+ save), has the mobility of a Riptide and a 5+ Invul save.

You know, never mind that second half, as we BOTH know all that just makes him outlandish. How about just finding me one MC that matches him for basic, no nova, HBC firepower, at his points cost or lower. Should be easy if this makes him so terrible. You said Dakkafex was an UP model, so find me a MC that is closer to Riptides power than the Dakkafex.

I've asked you multiple times to do it. You can't. Because all MC's at this points cost are at a much lower power level than the Riptide. They do not have this sort of firepower available. This is the power level Riptide should be at. You do not understand this, because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OP MC. But all other <180 pt MC's sit at a power level, dare I say it, LOWER THAN HBC RIPTIDE WITH A 3+ ARMOR SAVE. Oh my god, it's frightening isn't it, the concept of not having a ridicuously underpriced killing machine available that cheaply. How do the rest of us even get by!?

But please, feel free to prove me wrong - it's as easy as showing me what the other "balanced" MC's are that can match a HBC Riptide at less than 200 pts. The precedent and balance level for MC's is much lower than you want to admit.

Already have done this. The Dreadknight, either with the Heavy Incinerator or less optimally the Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon. T6 2+/5++ 4W, has a S6AP4 Torrent a Flamer and possibly a S7 Rending Large Blast, costs 160 or 200pts, is a Psyker, has built n Psychic Defense, WS5, I4, Ld10, 4 Attack(5on Charge), ATSKNF, and a Force Weapon.

The Dreadknight is less durable T1-3 and is more durable T4-7. It possesses none of the weaknesses of the Riptide and it's only failings are Rate of Fire and range of Weapons as they are designed for different purposes, and it is less mobile. Unlike the Riptide it is a CC monster that handles all but THSS in CC.

I prefer the 160pt HI version. Heck, with a Pt and HI it still costs less than my Riptides.

Seems like a good comparison to me, as finding a direct analog to a unique unit I. The game is impossible. Identical saves, very similar durability, more CC oriented than the ranged Riptide, has many fewer weaknesses vs LD and CC, and excels at killing MCs and light to medium infantry.

Ok, so we've landed on the Dreadknight. Definitely a good place to start a comparison.

The Dreadknight can put out 1 torrent S6 AP4 flamer, which can probably score 3 or 4 hits. I'll let you have the Heavy Psycannon bringing it up to 200 pts as well, giving you a 20 pt advantage. S7 AP4, 1/3 chance of hitting, with BS4 its probably not gunna scatter too far though most the time and still score a few hits, call it average of 5 hits. Am I being fair?

So now, it's matched the HBC Riptides firepower, slightly higher actually... except at 18" range. And only on multiple target units. And what's that about Riptides range? Oh it has literally double the range? Double the movement speed? AND Jump shoot jump?

It's applying its damage from turn 1 onwards. Dreadknight turn 2 if lucky.

Now we factor in that Dreadknight has 1 less wound. So let's give that Riptide 2 free turns of Nova to even the wounds up. Now not only does he get an extra turn or two of shooting, he is taking 12 shots that all have Rending, it OUTSHOOTS the Dreadknight, and can apply its damage to single target units such as other MC's.

Oh, and while that Dreadknight is in the middle of the board in range of everything hostile, and likely not being able to fully stick to cover, guess what the Riptide is doing - sitting at the friendly table edge chilling.

Dreadknight obviously out CC's him - not that he would ever make it to CC with a Riptide, its literally impossible for him to catch him. In fact he's so slow that he often doesn't make it to combat at all. He is a balanced model however because he still brings sensible firepower to make up for his mobility issues. Oh and he's pushing the +200 pt tierwhere Wraithknight resides instead the +100 tier of Riptide, but since it's so close I'll let you have it.


Riptide is just ridiculous. I don't see how anything but extreme bias can lead you to think a 2+ HBC Riptide is balanced for, 180 pts.

 Zagman wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
You aren't reading what anybody else has said.

We said that with 3+ save and HBC he would still be more, or at least as powerful as anything in his class.

Find me another MC that puts out as much firepower as 8x S6 AP4 + 4x S5 AP5 shots a turn, for 180 points or lower. Then find me one that has the option to make that 12x S6 AP4 shots with rending at the cost of 1 wound every 2 turns (yes, that is factoring in 3+ save), has the mobility of a Riptide and a 5+ Invul save.

You know, never mind that second half, as we BOTH know all that just makes him outlandish. How about just finding me one MC that matches him for basic, no nova, HBC firepower, at his points cost or lower. Should be easy if this makes him so terrible. You said Dakkafex was an UP model, so find me a MC that is closer to Riptides power than the Dakkafex.

I've asked you multiple times to do it. You can't. Because all MC's at this points cost are at a much lower power level than the Riptide. They do not have this sort of firepower available. This is the power level Riptide should be at. You do not understand this, because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OP MC. But all other <180 pt MC's sit at a power level, dare I say it, LOWER THAN HBC RIPTIDE WITH A 3+ ARMOR SAVE. Oh my god, it's frightening isn't it, the concept of not having a ridicuously underpriced killing machine available that cheaply. How do the rest of us even get by!?

But please, feel free to prove me wrong - it's as easy as showing me what the other "balanced" MC's are that can match a HBC Riptide at less than 200 pts. The precedent and balance level for MC's is much lower than you want to admit.

Already have done this. The Dreadknight, either with the Heavy Incinerator or less optimally the Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon. T6 2+/5++ 4W, has a S6AP4 Torrent a Flamer and possibly a S7 Rending Large Blast, costs 160 or 200pts, is a Psyker, has built n Psychic Defense, WS5, I4, Ld10, 4 Attack(5on Charge), ATSKNF, and a Force Weapon.

The Dreadknight is less durable T1-3 and is more durable T4-7. It possesses none of the weaknesses of the Riptide and it's only failings are Rate of Fire and range of Weapons as they are designed for different purposes, and it is less mobile. Unlike the Riptide it is a CC monster that handles all but THSS in CC.

I prefer the 160pt HI version. Heck, with a Pt and HI it still costs less than my Riptides.

Seems like a good comparison to me, as finding a direct analog to a unique unit I. The game is impossible. Identical saves, very similar durability, more CC oriented than the ranged Riptide, has many fewer weaknesses vs LD and CC, and excels at killing MCs and light to medium infantry.

Also has half the range, far less firepower outside that one time it stumbles onto bunched up infantry, well below half mobility, and that's all assuming the Riptide doesn't use the Nova reactor so it's actually less durable thanks to having one fewer wounds and far more likely to take damage due to being incapable of outrunning our outranging most threats and literally having to walk into incoming fire to do anything.

20pts, Better CC and psychic defenses vs extra wound, double the range, more firepower, better than double the mobility and the ability to majorly boost its own firepower, defenses or mobility each turn as needed by risking a wound.

Somehow I don't think the Dreadknight breaks even here, and IIRC it's generally considered a great model...

I cant because there is no MC as heavily tilted towards shooting as the riptide, he is the only one that does not come with at least moderate CC abilities, with most MCs being CC threats of some level or another.

Find me a single MC in the game nearly as tilted towards shooting as the riptide in the game, and we'll work with him, but there isn't. its like comparing sternguard to terminators in shooting.
Sure, terminators shoot-but its not their selling point. for sternguard it is. (not saying termie's are fairly priced, saying that their price does not come from shooting skills.)

Your dakkafex is the clostest comparison as he is a "mostly shooty non-flying MC" that also uses mid-strength spam. but he ALSO packs a non-negligible CC punch, has fearless, etc. the riptide has his own selling points, but you know what I am talking about, each has his own factors outside shooting.

I could create just as much as a miss by telling you to find a single MC that is WORSE for his cost in CC. there aren't. (at least any playable ones, only ones decked-out in useless wargear.)
Because he simply does not DO CC.
Its just a flawed comparison.

Yes, all other <180 MCs sit at a lower power level then HBC riptide, when they are looked at as pure shooters. but they are NOT pure shooters. none of them. you cannot match his firepower because you pay for other factors he does not have. even the least CC oriented MC, out do the riptide there by far.
"But I wont ever catch it in assault, what does it matter he is bad there?"
Simple, you probably won't assault it unless you are hyper-focused on fast assault. but he will not assault you either, unlike your everyday MC that has the option open for him at any time, even the cheap ones, to assault anything that out-shoots it.

And with a 3+ armor save? again we go back to it? I already shown that he has the technical durability of slightly more then a biker marine with it while maintaining his actual firepower. three of them if you got 50/50 on overcharging and not (fair mid-point to assuming how much it is used under smart choices)
Yea, even with 3+ only he out-shots every other MC. the armor has nothing to do with shooting. its just that with 3+ he just dies WAY too fast for his cost, and desired use.

Oh, and BTW, is not a self wound every 2 turns. its 4.66 in 6, simple math tells you is a wound every 1.28 turns. just saying.

And as a final note, "because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OP MC." made me lose faith in you being rational. you automatically ignore what I say and what I present just because I'm tau and you dislike tau regardless of any facts or reality, you just dislike them because of non-rational reasons. (and its ok, we all got our non-rational emotions)
As already noted, I am not "used to have a ridiculously OP MC", I hardly use riptides. I haven't even built my single riptide yet and only played borrowed and proxies, and never more then one. he's REALLY not a big deal for me. heck, Im not even building him yet partly because I'm waiting to get something that will allow me to do something cool in construction that i value more then the power-boost I can get by quickly pumping him out. (its harsh playing an army when most of the top-tier units in the codex as just not to your liking and the ones you do like are the "decent" to "not really working" range. still trying to excuse my stealthsuits and HRR boradsides back to the army, but they just preform too poorly.)