Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?

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**Zagman**

Galorian wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.

Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.

I dare you to come to a lecture in Thermal Physics and repeat this statement to the Professor in charge.

Having him prove the Central limit theorem to dissuade you of this notion would be rather hilarious.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zagman wrote:
Any particular reason you used the suboptimal weapon choice for the Annihilation Barge? Fluffing your data set as well done as it was?

Tesla is vastly superior, and really doesn't care about moving as much. And assuming the Annihilation Barge will be snap shotting all the time is erroneous. Tesla Destructor generates 5.33 Hits normal and is only reduced to 3.72 while making Snap Shots, which is also it rate of hit at S7 vs Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs.

By the way, the mathhammer was awesome, thank you. I invite you to rerun the numbers using Tesla, I've love to see them.

I went with Gauss because I find it to be a better option that makes the Barge more versatile, though I could run the math if you wish. As for the snap shot thing, you could always average the two results if you feel an even mix of stationary, combat speed and cruising speed/Jinx is more likely.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zagman wrote:
Edit: And don't forget to reduce the Riptides Nova Charged firepower to only being increased 2/3 of the time as a Failed NovaReactor fails to Nova Charge the weapon.

I accounted for that fact.

It holds true for the ripple fire as well right?

Yes, it holds true for the Ripple Fire as well.

Tesla is vastly superior to Guass. Make sure you run the comparison vs AV10-14 as well. Two Annihilation Barges deal 10.7 S7 hits when not making Snap shots, compare that to 6 S6 Rending shots from the Nova Charged Riptide, or the 4 S6 from the Non Nova.

Also, don't forget that for every three turns(36 shots) the Riptide fires its NOVAed Gets Hot Weapon, it takes a wound. So, with Nova and Get's Hot wounds the HBC Riptide deals 3.33 Wounds to itself in 6 Turns. Its a huge mitigating factor that either results in the Riptide's death, or a marked decrease in lategame firepower.

I strongly suggest you run the Tesla numbers, it is truly amazing how powerful that weapon is and for your own benefit run those numbers against its Guass Counterpart especially when Cover/Invulnerable Saves and Armor Values are present. And trust me, when Flyers are taken into account the difference is truly obscene.

IMO the Guass Annihilation Barge isn't really undercosted, and if it is, it isn't by much. Its Tesla where it really shines.

**Galorian**

BoomWolf wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Well, as a Necron player, one of my main reasons I'm butt hurt about the Riptide is the fact that a C'tan Shard costs way more points, has a worse save, less wounds, nowhere near as good gun options, and is nowhere near as mobile. Why would a Riptide be cheaper, and overall better than a shard of a star god? I dunno, kinda pisses me off.

That's a C'tan problem, not a riptide one.

The C'tan comes in two breeds now, the "ah hell" LoW version and "lolwat?" codex version.
The codex C'tan is just....made of fail I'd guess. made even worse by the fact its in a codex with so many powerful and versatile options to further overshadow it.

They should scratch the shards off the rooster and turn the models into other LoW level c'tans (not as mighty as the one that's out there though. lower level LoW would be welcomed)

Back to the riptide, galorian if you are going to keep on anctodal evidence, I'll counter you by the fact my decked out riptide took 3 wounds in one turn from a mere annibarge and a few warriors of yours, so I had to make him run for it. I'd also note that in your example not "direct counters" as each and every one of the units presented has additional powers that you pay for and do not come into play in that scenario (the Tark has other shooting options, the pylon is a skyfire interceptor with S levels high enough to be beyond efficiency, the Gark is a warrior ressurction platform, etc)
And when you look at the reverse, just how much damage did the riptide do in return? a bullet magnet it may be, but unsupported, you can safely ignore him while you reduce his surrounding to dust, then turn on the tides when its done.

The riptide's whole "thing" is to never, ever die. that's his specialty. he (in theory) pays for it by being weak on the offensive for his costs. the IA brakes that intention and that is why we say that the problem with the riptide. in 6th it was also broken by the (obviously unintended yet totally legal) IC shenanigans and the fact cheap divination psyker allies were a thing and were amazingly powerful on their own right.
Once IA is taken out of the equation, the riptide truly is a monster in defensive terms, yet totally lackluster on offensive ones. a bullet magnet that is doing what he can to force your attention, in hopes I can get him into positions you really can't afford to ignore, and then its superior defenses will come into play.

EDIT: holds true to all NOVA usage. even defensive ones. you fail-you hurt yourself and get nothing for it. and using gauss really was cheesy of you, you know very well that the tesla is the reason its considered OP, not the gauss. the gauss is, unimpressive at best. (when was the last time you fielded the gauss?)

I backed said "anecdotal evidence" with a calculation that showed that if anything, I performed above average to take that Riptide down in 3 turns. Moreover, I did not include the cost of the Ghost Ark, the Overlord tax for the Court or the Warrior tax of the Ark in the cost calculation.

As for the Barge, I ALWAYS field the Gauss.

It's the underslung cannon that's not twin linked dumbass... (P.S. I'm a friend of Boomwolf in real life, don't get your panties in a knot)

**Tamwulf**

As noted earlier in the thread, the Riptide is very difficult to take down, but it's damage output isn't that high. That is, until you start to factor in the extras, like Pathfinders with their Markerlights, a Buffmander (which I think you can't really do anymore? Attach an IC to a Riptide? I haven't really thought about that until now), and all the other little support stuff that you take in a Tau army. The thing is, all that wargear and extras are ALWAYS taken, even if there is no Riptide in the army. The extras are just too good not to take. Using the argument that the Riptide is actually over-costed because of the extras to make it better is a spurious argument at best. Those extras will be taken whether its for a unit of Missilesides, or Hammerheads, or an army of nothing but Crisis Suits.

I'd hate to see a nerfbat taken to the Riptide though. It's a fantastic model, the rules for it are pretty good, and I think it gives the Tau an extra heavy hitter besides a Hammerhead, fragile Broadsides, or suicide Crisis Suit squad. Maybe the problem is that the Tau just have nothing better to take? That it's an obvious choice, similar to the Helldrake?

If we really start talking about adjusting (nerfing) the Riptide, then I think we'll also have to talk about the Eldar Wraithknight, Imperial Knights, Chaos Maulerfiend, and the new Ork Gorkanaut/Morkanaut.

**Co'tor Shas**

Galorian wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.

Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.

I dare you to come to a lecture in Thermal Physics and repeat this statement to the Professor in charge.

Having him prove the Central limit theorem to dissuade you of this notion would be rather hilarious.

Umm, he is talking the fact that the chances are no longer even. The CL theorem is not related at all.

**Rawrgyle**

BoomWolf wrote:

The riptide's whole "thing" is to never, ever die. that's his specialty. he (in theory) pays for it by being weak on the offensive for his costs. the IA brakes that intention and that is why we say that the problem with the riptide. in 6th it was also broken by the (obviously unintended yet totally legal) IC shenanigans and the fact cheap divination psyker allies were a thing and were amazingly powerful on their own right.
Once IA is taken out of the equation, the riptide truly is a monster in defensive terms, yet totally lackluster on offensive ones. a bullet magnet that is doing what he can to force your attention, in hopes I can get him into positions you really can't afford to ignore, and then its superior defenses will come into play.

First off thanks Zagman for being the voice of reason here.

Secondly boomwolf is right in this quote above. I take riptides to be shot at so the rest of my army can tare you apart while you are distracted by "OMG JetPackMC!1!!". Yes, it can do some damage, I won't deny that, and the IA IS undercosted. But most MCs are geared to CC and still have a better Ballistic Skill than a riptide, which can easily hurt itself or not fire at all, killing its offensive potential.

The rest of the tau army doesn't have the ability to stand up to any real counters. Don't have the numbers like IG or necrons even with the same or better armor save. No psychics or any real CC ability (except the one time a single drone killed a SM captain! YAY for Randomness there!) and yes we have a few movement shenannigans but nothing really OP like eldar crazy 48" moves (not sure on the exact number but it is high) for example.

If you are shooting my riptides, and not its supporting members, I am probably going to win the game. Try playing a game against Tau with that in mind then come back and re access if riptides are Over priced.

**BoomWolf**

Wait...apperantly there isn't even a main gauss cannon XD

Odd, remembered something of the sort to exist yet never taken. (the underslung guass is actually useful against my suits though)

Anyway, the numbers on the annibarge seem waaaay off anything I know from my fights against you, of them taking out things in twice and more the rate presented there. did you calculate the 6's triples and all in there? (or are your dice just that got made that poorly? won't count against GW dice being crooked as an option)
The numbers presented look like half of what I'm used to taking from them somehow x_X

Though using "jink" numbers is also a mistake. they don't need to jinx all the time, only when serius anti-tank is aimed at their heads. this equals to the riptide setting off his 3++ to protect it from serius anti-MC fire coming his way, except the barge gets to do it in the last moment, and suffer the next turn, and the tide need to do so per-emptivly, and pays for it in firepower right now. (and if you took FnP to get your defenses to "always up", its 35 points extra to efficency calculations) After all a jinxed annibarge is virtually untouchable by most shooters, and unlike other skimmers, it still shoots pretty fine. (though seeing the numbers, it seems like the jink change did hurt it a bit. the reduction IS meaningful enough)

Also, i'd like to note that when targeting AV values, the annibarge will likely come way in advance. also flyers.

**DaPino**

stopcallingmechief wrote:
i find it grossly under-prices, my friend runs a farsight enclave list of all suits, as of lastweek i officially refuse to play him with my chaos space marines, literally ordered $600 bucks worth of eldar 4 days ago, i will only field it vs his tau and every other player at my club ill use my marines against.

should be 220 base cost and the accelerator should be another 20 ontop of it. The worst part to me is my buddy refuses to acknowledge its overpowered. "its useless without using nova and i wound myself 33% of the time", ya a s8 ap2 large template is useless.

Are you me?
You sound like me and you have the same problem.

**Galorian**

Annihilation Barge (w. underslung Tesla Cannon)-

Spoiler:

Higher numbers mean poorer AB performance, so I'm largely sold on the Tesla cannon being the better option at the moment. However, the numbers aren't that much better- at full BS there's still 14 cases out of 48 where it achieves 80% or better, 5 of which actually have him dealing more damage per point, and when snap firing there's 35 cases of 80% or higher, 25 of which have him dealing more damage per point.

And again, you can't just ignore the fact it's FAR harder to kill, even factoring the 2-3 wounds he'd end up taking per game via Nova charging, significantly more mobile (even when the Barge sacrifices firepower for mobility), has immensely superior synergies within his own Codex and retardedly good upgrade options you'd be a fool not to take. Hell, unlike the Barge it's even capable of protecting itself in CC to a significant degree.

Yes, against AV12-13 vehicles the Barge DOES have a much better damage output and it's pretty good at taking down flyers as well, but on the flipside it's all but completely useless against AV14 and the Riptide can take a fairly cheap upgrade that lets it be better than the Barge at AA if the player feels he needs it to be.

**BoomWolf**

"cheap upgrade?" its 20 points for that alone, further altering the cost/effect ratios against any other target for the negative side.

And how is he "far harder to kill" then the barge who is outright immune to S6 and below, and borderline impossible to hurt with S7? (and when anything even risks killing it, you jinx for a 3+ save on top of the tough armor) the barge is a durable tank. getting a pen on an AV13 skimmer isn't easy. (you can try it, calculate how much time it will take on average for the "dedicated anti-riptide" units in the example way back to actually get a single pen result stick on a barge, its alot.)

**Galorian**

BoomWolf wrote:
"cheap upgrade?" its 20 points for that alone, further altering the cost/effect ratios against any other target for the negative side.

It's an 11% nudge that turn it into one of the best AA platforms in the game, and you'd only take it if you felt like you need decent AA in your list so in practice if you take it it saves you points elsewhere (similar to how, in practice, all those markerlights you keep complaining are "required" to give the Riptide decent shooting, which is a notion I think I proved statistically false, are present in most Tau lists anyway regardless of whether or not they boast a Riptide thanks to how damn useful they are).

BoomWolf wrote:
And how is he "far harder to kill" then the barge who is outright immune to S6 and below, and borderline impossible to hurt with S7? (and when anything even risks killing it, you jinx for a 3+ save on top of the tough armor) the barge is a durable tank. getting a pen on an AV13 skimmer isn't easy. (you can try it, calculate how much time it will take on average for the "dedicated anti-riptide" units in the example way back to actually get a single pen result stick on a barge, its alot.)

How do I jinx for 3+ again?

Oh, right, by taking a 185pts character that can buff 1 unit per turn.

You're also conveniently ignoring how easily anti-tank weapons can pop an open topped AV13 vehicle. Sure, autocannons aren't much of a threat so long as it has its QS up, but if you didn't bother bringing any serious anti-tank options to the table you failed at list building and will have a hard time with ANY vehicle that's more durable than a Chimera...

Remind me again, how much do these fusion spamming deep striking Crisis suits of yours cost?

[EDIT]

Oh, and while I don't consider my "dedicated anti-riptide" lineup to be very effective at anti-tank duty, making your argument quite the strawman, I'll entertain the notion an run the numbers- Combine the aforementioned group would have average of 0.637 penetrating hits per turn (0.189 explodes results per turn by the way), and I'm not even bothering with considering the added effects of results other than 'explodes!' nor am I factoring in glancing hits.

And yes, I assumed it jinxed for the 4+ save thus sacrificing a fair bit of firepower in the bargain (cause it's dead otherwise).

**BoomWolf**

Don't nitpick on a typo x_x you know full well 4 and 3 are right next to each other.

And the same as I ignore melta when talking about the barge, it can be said you ignore poison when talking about the riptide. or gauss, or ID weapons, or EMP, or LD targeting weapons/powers, etc, etc.
We can't follow every single possibility, we stick to the basics here. but just as much as the pylon can be said to be anti-riptide, he is anti-tank (S9AP2 IS anti-tank realm). yet he wont get much done against the barge either.

Though melta IS often enough to be considered, so lets look at it.
The fusion suits by the way cost 53 each, for 2 BS3 melta shots (at slightly improved range) meaning a single hit on average, and then 26/36 chance to get a pen even if the deep-strike went perfect and I'm in range of the bonus. (and as we know, it can go horribly wrong)

And then jink can negate half of any pens I do get.
Sure, a pen is lethal, 50% kill on AP1 and lose the QS. but you need to score one first, and with AV13 on sides and affordable jink saves, its not easy-and requires far beyond its cost to reliably remove.
It takes 3 suits to reliably pen a jinked barge, and that's 159 points already. (3 suits will get 1.083 pens against jinks barge, assuming they are all in melta range) while the barge was 90. and I rely on a risky deepstrike maneuver to pull it off, rather then straight-shooting from range, and if it fails the unit can be rendered useless or outright die. (if I deepstrike in solos the negate the risk of losing entire teams, then each suit beyond the first increases the odds of a screwup as the area gets cluttered)
Not to mention the odds of getting a second good shot at another target later in the game is virtually non-existent unless you are against a parking lot, and that the gun is so highly specialized its mostly useless efficiency-wise against anything else, should AV values not show up.
So yea, its literally a perfect counter, solely dedicated to countering that unit type, and even they have a hard time being anywhere near efficient when targeting the barge. and they are considered some of the most efficient anti-tank solutions out there. and its 1.083 pens, not explosions. only half of these will acutally insta-kill,meaning that the barge is more likely then not to survive the 3 suits, even if crippled and reduced to manageable AV11.
AV13 skimmers just don't come in such a price, even the hammerhead while naked is 125, and the big side target is a 12, not a 13.

Now, for the markerlight point-yes, they are there. at the same sense other buff units are there. but its an additional unit, mostly a fragile one, and one that DOES change the cost of the army, because if 15% of your points went on marker support, you got 15% less guns.
Does it make them bad? hell no. they are great. but it does not mean they are free, either of point cost or of risk (as they are more often then not, super fragile.) you cannot (nor did you, but some people do) assume that a unit is marker-buffed while not calculating the fact the marker took a price, even if he was there anyway (as it means its not used to helping anyone else this turn. how different is it from another normal gun shooting at the same target for calculation purposes?)

On another note, I'd assume you use a spreadsheet of sorts for the calculations (so you just entire profile and get results)-mind sharing it? I'd like to run some calculations on some units.

**Zagman**

For your Riptide calculations, I assume you used an SMS?

You didn't run the calculations for AV Targets especially AA targets, it would be telling before and after VT. I'm willing to be that the Annihilation Barges are more effective with Tesla as the Riptide with a VT and SMS. And it will be even more in favor of the Annihilation Barges if you run those numbers with the IA Riptide.

One of the main reasons the Annihilation Barge is undercosted is that it is an extremely effective weapon vs nearly every target in the game up to AV13 and especially Flyers. Even the Riptide has to specialize to become an AA platform. Annihilation Barges rock all light AV for stripping Hull Points.

Ignoring the small chance of Explodes results and double Immobilizes we can calculate how man hits of a certain Strength it takes to kill each. I'm going to Ignore S4 and S5 as well. This also doesn't take into account their Quantum shielding, which would be extremely difficult to calculate, luckily there are two Barges so it only makes a difference for 1-2 HP per Barge and only with High Strength Weapons.

6(2x3)HP AV13 4+ vs T6 2+/5++

Strength 6 AP- NA vs 60Hits
Strength 6 AP2 NA vs 15Hits
Strength 7 AP- 72 vs 45 Hits
Strength 7 AP2 72 vs 11Hits
Strength 8 AP- 36 vs 36 Hits with a 1.4% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 8 AP2 36 vs 9 Hits with a 2.7% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 9 AP- 24 vs 36 Hits with a 2.7% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 9 AP2 24 vs 9 Hits with a 5.5% Chance of an explodes Result
Strength 10 AP2 18 vs 9 Hits with an 8.3% Chance of an explodes Result and a 11.1% Chance of a Distort Instant Death

And if we had favored in the amount of Expected Nova or Gets Hot wounds into the calculation, the Riptide is far more vulnerable on average than the Annihilation Barges. Looks like the Annihilation barges are more resilient in many situations than the Riptide and when coupled with Firepower Advantage of the Annihilation Barges it is clear why they are vastly over costed. The Riptide fails in comparison, though in a standard CAD the limit of Barge is 3, where as 3 Riptides is consistent with 6 Barges drawing more ire from the community.

Of especial note is how resilient the Annihilation Barge is to the most common forms of AT present in the Meta, S7. Of course this can't possibly account for dedicated AT strategies involving Melta, etc but is effective to represent say a Tau, IG, and Eldar long ranged Firepower.

Figured I'd run some durability numbers to further our comparison.

**Vineheart01**

Just me or is this getting a little heated?

Might want to simmer down guys, or the thread might get locked.

**TheKbob**

I don't care about points and gameplay, but the model is physically overpriced.

Gundam Master Grade kits at 12" tall with probably quad to quintuple the sprues (with varying color of plastics so paint isn't necessary) that are fully articulate can be purchased for $65 NIB.

Thus making the Riptide look like a terrible value presentation. Plus, it's not a Gundam. Which, may or may not be a good thing for you. But the kit comparison is still apt.

**PrinceRaven**

Why is everyone calculating wounds taken by the Riptide as if Tau players use their Nova reactor every single turn? In my experience they only use it for 4 turns maximum, factor in Feel No Pain and the Riptide is doing a lot less damage to itself than you think it is.

**Vineheart01**

Depends on the weapon. Bursttides nova every turn, as their gun is rendered near useless for the cost if it doesnt get that 3+ each turn.

Iontides are situational for nova. I almost never use it for the Ordnance shot but i use it for ripplefire or 3++ if i feel i need it.

FNP is usually a pointdump, least for me it is, because its 35pts on a riptide and i usually need that points elsewhere.

**PrinceRaven**

I would buy Feel No Pain for 35 points on my 2+/5++ MCs all day.
You know, if I actually had any.

**Zagman**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Why is everyone calculating wounds taken by the Riptide as if Tau players use their Nova reactor every single turn? In my experience they only use it for 4 turns maximum, factor in Feel No Pain and the Riptide is doing a lot less damage to itself than you think it is.

An HBC Riptide needs to Nova every turn it has two or more wounds remaining, without NovaCharging it's HBC it has pretty low damage output. My HBC Riptides NOVA every single turn they have more than two wounds remaining and my ECPA does every single turn.

IA Riptides on the other hand don't have to Nova a Charge nearly as often, it's the main reason that the IA upgrade is undercosted. That being said, Gets Hot ruining it's Overcharged Blast profile once per game is extremely annoying. When using the Nova Reactor for an IA Riptide Ripple Fire is usually the best option, and Shield if you know you need to weather a ton of shooting in an upcoming turn.

Most people aren't running Stim Injectors on their Riptides, especially their IA Riptides. I recommend it as almost mandatory upgrade for HBC Riptides as it reduces their chance of self wounding down to 2/9 while spending the points on an Ia Riptide generally reduces it's overall offensive efficiency as they have much risk of self wounding.

I actually wrote a tactics on the Riptide in 6th, much of the information is still relevant. I should update it for 7th Edition... Riptide: My Take

**PrinceRaven**

Are you sure HBC Riptides exist?
I'm not sure because, like unicorns, I've never actually seen one.

**Zagman**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Are you sure HBC Riptides exist?
I'm not sure because, like unicorns, I've never actually seen one.

Lol, I've fielded them in over 30 tournament games including GT games and field them 2:1 compared to IA Riptides. And that was in 6th, in 7th the HBC is better at taking HP off of almost all AV. Most people underestimate how effective the HBC could be. If you are giving your Riptide a VT it's tough to beat the HBC Riptide, especially if it has an ECPA.

**PrinceRaven**

Let's do a comparison to a similar unit, comparisons are fun. Riptide with Ion Accelerator & Target Lock vs. Exocrine:

Points Cost
The Exocrine is 20 points cheaper

Stats
Exocrine has +1 WS and Initiative with a 3+ armour save
Riptide has +2 leadership with both a 2+ armour save and a 5+ invulnerable save

Special Rules and Wargear
Exocrine is Fearless, gains +1 BS if it doesn't move, and suffers from Instinctive Behaviour - Hunt
Riptide can jump 2d6" in the assault phase, and can Nova Charge to either lose a wound 33.33% of the time or gain one of the following 66.67% of the time:
- A 3+ invulnerable save
- an added 2d6" to it's Thrust move
- The ability to fire it's secondary weapon twice
- A better profile on its weapon

Firepower
Exocrine has 24" range and can fire either 6 shots or a Large Blast, both at Str 7 AP 2
Riptide has 72" range and can fire either 3 shots at Str 7 AP 2 or a Large Blast at Str 8 AP 2 that Gets Hot. It additionally has a further 4 shots at 30" range it may fire at a different target at Str 5 AP 5 Homing Ignores Cover

Conclusion: The increased durability, range, manoeuvrability and versatility of the Riptide is worth much more than 20 points. I cannot justify ever taking an Exocrine over a Riptide in an Unbound list.

**BlaxicanX**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Kinda shocked i never see any Wraithknight hate threads - two 36" S10 AP1 guns on a virtually immortal model barring sniper spamming that causes ID on a 6? And you cant beat it in assault since its crazy in there too? Confused why riptides are the target.....

It's probably because Wraithknights are... 60 points more expensive than a Riptide.

if Riptides were as expensive as Wraithknights were, or even a little bit less, there probably wouldn't be as much grinding of teeth.

**PrinceRaven**

Because Wave Serpents are even better than Wraithknights are?

**Galorian**

Calculating chances of things killing vehicles is a serious pain, especially with Quantum Shield involved, but my OCD acted up so you got yourself some final results. Note that I assumed it Jinxes and that most results are mutually exclusive- the chance of taking 1hp of damage, 2 hp of damage, getting wrecked and exploding are all mutually exclusive and the chances of getting stunned (accounted for Living Metal), immobilized (did not account for the fact you could get this result multiple times or the fact getting it would disable future jinx attempts) or losing the Tesla Destructor (accounted for the fact there's a 50% chance of destroying the secondary weapon but not for the fact you could get this result multiple times) are mutually exclusive with getting exploded. Getting penetrated is not mutually exclusive with anything since that would be too much of a pain to account for (hilariously that means losing a hull point is less likely than getting penned in some cases, as the loss of hull points excludes other hp loss results or getting exploded while penetrating does not).

1 shot

Spoiler:

2 shots

Spoiler:

3 shots

Spoiler:

I'd like to point out how these probabilities stack when determining how f**ked the Barge is in each instance-

The best probability for a wrecked result after 3 shots is for a S10 AP- weapon (1.1% at BS4) as the chances of scoring an 'Explodes!' result are much higher than the chances of scoring three hp of damage without scoring one across the board (save for S7, which can't penetrate). The best chance of actually killing the Barge with 3 shots however belongs to BS4 S10 AP1 (duh), with a total of 25.1% chance of either wrecking or exploding it. Even with a single shot the chance of a BS4 S10 AP1 weapon exploding the Barge is 8.3% (roughly 28 times the chances of 3 shots of the same gun to wreck it without blowing it up).

The real kicker however is what you get if you try to figure out how likely you are to make the AB useless the following turn (permanently or not)- The same BS4 S10 AP1 shot that had a mere 8.3% chance of outright exploding the Barge has a 13.8% chance of making it useless the following turn, and most of the added percentage is from permanent results (immobilized/lost TD), and loss of QS is 16.7% likely. 2 shots would explode the barge 16.4% of the time, but the total odds of it being useless next turn or worse are in fact 27.7%, and again, over 2/3 of the increase is from permanent results.

The chances of disabling the Annihilation Barge, either for the following turn or permanently, are as follows:

Spoiler:

And this is all without taking into account the myriad anti-tank options available (haywire, armourbane, ordnance, tank-hunter, melta, lance, etc), the fact you could fire high S weapons first to drop the QS before opening up with the weaker ones, the fact that after the QS drops guns with S5 and above have open season on the Barge, the fact Ignores Cover is a thing or the fact it has a lower rear armor value.

[EDIT]

Forgot to multiply by 100, so these results are probabilities rather than percentages.

**MasterOfGaunts**

@Galorian:

Can you please use a

Spoiler:

to hide your wall of numbers?

Thx!

**Galorian**

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
@Galorian:

Can you please use a

Spoiler:

USE ME!!!

to hide your wall of numbers?

Thx!

You're welcome!

**xlEternitylx**

TheKbob wrote:
I don't care about points and gameplay, but the model is physically overpriced.

Gundam Master Grade kits at 12" tall with probably quad to quintuple the sprues (with varying color of plastics so paint isn't necessary) that are fully articulate can be purchased for $65 NIB.

Thus making the Riptide look like a terrible value presentation. Plus, it's not a Gundam. Which, may or may not be a good thing for you.Definitely bad But the kit comparison is still apt.

Riptide: Overpriced. Seriously overpriced. TheKbob knows where it's at.

**BoomWolf**

Galorian wrote:

I'd like to point out how these probabilities stack when determining how f**ked the Barge is in each instance-

The best probability for a wrecked result after 3 shots is for a S10 AP- weapon (1.1% at BS4) as the chances of scoring an 'Explodes!' result are much higher than the chances of scoring three hp of damage without scoring one across the board (save for S7, which can't penetrate). The best chance of actually killing the Barge with 3 shots however belongs to BS4 S10 AP1 (duh), with a total of 25.1% chance of either wrecking or exploding it. Even with a single shot the chance of a BS4 S10 AP1 weapon exploding the Barge is 8.3% (roughly 28 times the chances of 3 shots of the same gun to wreck it without blowing it up).

The real kicker however is what you get if you try to figure out how likely you are to make the AB useless the following turn (permanently or not)- The same BS4 S10 AP1 shot that had a mere 8.3% chance of outright exploding the Barge has a 13.8% chance of making it useless the following turn, and most of the added percentage is from permanent results (immobilized/lost TD), and loss of QS is 16.7% likely. 2 shots would explode the barge 16.4% of the time, but the total odds of it being useless next turn or worse are in fact 27.7%, and again, over 2/3 of the increase is from permanent results.

I'd like to point out that said 3 S10AP1BS4 shots, from your most likely source of hammerheads, would amount to 375 points of intended anti-tank fire on naked hammerheads (real hammerheads in game cost more then 125 a piece, as they need some upgrades to be effective in-game, but we'll ignore it for now.)
That means its over four times the cost in guns intended for the sole purpose of taking out enemy tanks are required to outright kill it. nobody could argue that its not durable for its price.
Even if you permanently disable it (say, and I'll be generous, 75% to either kill or permanently disable it) it still took you over four times the price in dedicated counters to get 75% to take it out in a turn, and that's insane durability.

Sure, the fusion suits do it alot better, but as I already calculated before, to average out a single pen I need to get 159 points of suits-when you don't jinx. when you do I need double that, or 44 points of pathfindes to give me two markerlights (the dudes have heavy weapons, so if they moved, not nearly as effective), slightly more if I want a mobile center. that single pen that cost about 200 points to achieve under optimal conditions only gives a 50% chance to actually get an "explode" result. and that's when nto using jink.

Sp to get a reliable "explode" result against a jinked barge I'd need a whooping 636 points of fusions suits to all get into 9" range without anyone to mess up (that's 4 teams of 3), half this much if I'm sane enough to work with marker support to give both teams cover ignoring abilities (that requires 4 marks, on the most efficient platform that is the immobile pathfinder that's 88 points for markers alone. so combining the suits plus the markers its still 406 points (over four time the cost) to get a statistical average of one explode result to stick.
And it depends on two successful deepstrikes, and an immobile unit to be in range (if I want mobile markers, its even more points)

Its atrociously hard to kill the thing, even with dedicated counter-units who do nothing BUT target tanks and cover-ignoring support powers. side 13 is not easy to crack anyway, and when you can jink whenever a real threat comes up means there is hardly a weakness in it's shell, especially with it's smallish rear profile that is easy to hide.
Yes, getting a pen means its either dead outright, or severely crippled. but getting a pen requires a hell lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons on anything with AV13 and 4+ cover.
And before anyone says that "the hammerhead is the same", the hammerhead costs 38% more when naked, has side 12 and really IS rendered useless when jinked as his snap fire is far more effected. plus its mathematically worse at shooting against most targets even when not jinked.

**MechaBeast**

Riptide is fine. It's the Ion Accelerator that's under costed.

Also It's what Tau could do to make the riptide better and no one ever factors that into the cost of 180.

Assist from Marker lights, Buffmanders, Aliies...etc.

**Galorian**

BoomWolf wrote:
Galorian wrote:

I'd like to point out how these probabilities stack when determining how f**ked the Barge is in each instance-

The best probability for a wrecked result after 3 shots is for a S10 AP- weapon (1.1% at BS4) as the chances of scoring an 'Explodes!' result are much higher than the chances of scoring three hp of damage without scoring one across the board (save for S7, which can't penetrate). The best chance of actually killing the Barge with 3 shots however belongs to BS4 S10 AP1 (duh), with a total of 25.1% chance of either wrecking or exploding it. Even with a single shot the chance of a BS4 S10 AP1 weapon exploding the Barge is 8.3% (roughly 28 times the chances of 3 shots of the same gun to wreck it without blowing it up).

The real kicker however is what you get if you try to figure out how likely you are to make the AB useless the following turn (permanently or not)- The same BS4 S10 AP1 shot that had a mere 8.3% chance of outright exploding the Barge has a 13.8% chance of making it useless the following turn, and most of the added percentage is from permanent results (immobilized/lost TD), and loss of QS is 16.7% likely. 2 shots would explode the barge 16.4% of the time, but the total odds of it being useless next turn or worse are in fact 27.7%, and again, over 2/3 of the increase is from permanent results.

I'd like to point out that said 3 S10AP1BS4 shots, from your most likely source of hammerheads, would amount to 375 points of intended anti-tank fire on naked hammerheads (real hammerheads in game cost more then 125 a piece, as they need some upgrades to be effective in-game, but we'll ignore it for now.)
That means its over four times the cost in guns intended for the sole purpose of taking out enemy tanks are required to outright kill it. nobody could argue that its not durable for its price.
Even if you permanently disable it (say, and I'll be generous, 75% to either kill or permanently disable it) it still took you over four times the price in dedicated counters to get 75% to take it out in a turn, and that's insane durability.

Sure, the fusion suits do it alot better, but as I already calculated before, to average out a single pen I need to get 159 points of suits-when you don't jinx. when you do I need double that, or 44 points of pathfindes to give me two markerlights (the dudes have heavy weapons, so if they moved, not nearly as effective), slightly more if I want a mobile center. that single pen that cost about 200 points to achieve under optimal conditions only gives a 50% chance to actually get an "explode" result. and that's when nto using jink.

Sp to get a reliable "explode" result against a jinked barge I'd need a whooping 636 points of fusions suits to all get into 9" range without anyone to mess up (that's 4 teams of 3), half this much if I'm sane enough to work with marker support to give both teams cover ignoring abilities (that requires 4 marks, on the most efficient platform that is the immobile pathfinder that's 88 points for markers alone. so combining the suits plus the markers its still 406 points (over four time the cost) to get a statistical average of one explode result to stick.
And it depends on two successful deepstrikes, and an immobile unit to be in range (if I want mobile markers, its even more points)

Its atrociously hard to kill the thing, even with dedicated counter-units who do nothing BUT target tanks and cover-ignoring support powers. side 13 is not easy to crack anyway, and when you can jink whenever a real threat comes up means there is hardly a weakness in it's shell, especially with it's smallish rear profile that is easy to hide.
Yes, getting a pen means its either dead outright, or severely crippled. but getting a pen requires a hell lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons on anything with AV13 and 4+ cover.
And before anyone says that "the hammerhead is the same", the hammerhead costs 38% more when naked, has side 12 and really IS rendered useless when jinked as his snap fire is far more effected. plus its mathematically worse at shooting against most targets even when not jinked.

O_o

S8+2d6 pens AV13 with a 26/36 chance. You get two shots which cancels out the BS3, leaving you with 13/36 chance to pen after taking jinx into account, AKA 36.1%. That's per suit and ignoring the fact that the suit very often manages to get into the rear arc, meaning it actually needs only pen AV11, in which case it has a 45.8% chance of penning a Jinxing Barge.

Since it has AP1 vs an open topped skimmer any damage result barring a 1 lands a permanently damaging hit (roll a 1 and there's a 50% chance it would get disabled for a turn, roll a two and there's a 50% chance it loses its primary weapon, anything above that and it's as good as dead or outright explodes).

All tolled that's a 27.1% chance of permanently making the barge a non-issue (lost its TD, immobilized or explodes) if firing at the front or 34.4% to do so when firing at the rear.

But wait! There's deepstrike to take into account!

Let's say you're smart and place the guy 5" away from the Barge facing the center of its rear arc. there's a 1/3 chance of a direct hit on the deepstrike, otherwise lets assume half the directions you could scatter towards would cause a mishap if you scatter over 4" and the other half would result in you facing a side arc rather than the rear. Chance to roll 4 or less on 2d6 is 1/9 and the rest is split evenly between hitting AV13 and mishapping, giving you overall a 44.4% chance of hitting rear armor, 27.8% chance of hitting side and 27.8% chance of mishapping.

So the final verdict is that each suit has a 30.4% chance of getting a penetrating hit on a jinxing barge (at the very least leaving it at the mercy of any firewarrior or SMS on the board) and a 22.8% chance of effectively taking it out of the game or outright exploding it.

That's pretty damn good for a cheaper model that's all but impossible for the other guy to stop what with the skyfire nerf now making practically all non-Tau interceptors all but useless against ground targets...