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stopcallingmechief wrote:
Zagman. Ive played this game for twenty years and must have been sick the day they did the english language test both to play and to post on the forums. If you do not like the way i post in mysecond language, than dont let the door hit you on the way out of the thread, prick. My points stand.

why do you even need to overcharge the suit unless your going for the 3+ invul save. my buddy who runs an enclave list uses some sort of deep striking suits with fusion guns to crush my tanks. his riptides make a mockery of every single troop selection in the game, all without overcahrging the cannon. in your post you mention that the tide isnt OP, just two options are. I mean you cant have one without the other, people dont just take the base package riptide for a reason, it makes no sense to say its balanced when any player worth his salt takes the upgrades everytime. FNP on a 6 wound model is basically 2 extra wounds (33% chance to save each wound), its unreal. I see nothing in 7th that is going to make the tide less effective. With the exception of summoning i find the people i play are getting less spells off per turn and when they do their is a greater chance of perils. What has changed in 7th to make it less effective? the fact it can score makes it better.

I apologize if it is your second language, though I recommend using Capital Letters. It greatly increases readability of a post. My reaction was more directed at that although I specified sentences.

I've played this game for over a decade as well....


As to your point or lack there of. I've run Riptides in a competitive setting, ~30-50 Tournament Games in 6th Edition. I've done well with them at the GT level. I've played as and against Riptides, even Quadtide at a GT. Needless to say I have a lot of experience running Riptides and am painfully aware of what weaknesses they do have and their relative worth. That being said I ran them because they are one of the best units in the Tau Codex which match up against some of the best units from other codices.

Firstly I supplied a well constructed and detailed post breaking the Riptide down into many different facets examining its relative worth. Your post showed either a lack of reading or understanding of my post. Again, you say your points stand, but for the life of me I'm not seeing it. Please spell them out in a logical and useful manner and we can argue each point in detail

I'm going to reiterate this one more time. The base Riptide is not undercosted, but it does have two options which are. Please specify and direct your rage towards those two options, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override. Even undercosted they are very manageable and without considerable support is less point efficient and ranged damage than a Leman Russ. Yes, it is a very durable points denial unit but it is far from the worst offender for OP/Uncercosted. In fact, in 7th Edition the Riptide will be far less common and will not be the powerhouse it once was for the reasons I've given. And given your examples we are dealing with at least a 220pt model with Stim Injectors and the IA upgrade. That is not a cheap unit and without support its damage output will under perform on average over the course of many games.

Now, I strongly suggest you act as mature as someone who has been playing this game for twenty years and not devolve into immature name calling. There absolutely was no need for it. I ask that you write a well crafted response to the points I've raise. Handwaving and name calling have no place in this discussion, therefore I invite you to leave the thread as I am confident that I've contributed much more to it than you have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luky7dayz wrote:
Well I don't think that fighting a riptide would be so bad for certain counters, and in certain point matches. But for me, I like to play 500-1000 point games, I only have my 1500 force for close friends.

in a 1000 point game if someone fielded 2 of those against my crons I can guarantee I couldn't kill them without 2-3 horseshoes shoved into the nether regions.

I guess thats sort of the competitive side of it though, in a normal small point game you just shouldn't be a dick and field these knowing your enemy has no viable counters at that point level.

I don't think I would of done it if my buddy didn't tell me too. Yes, it was funny, but WAY to cheesy. I think tau need a few more nerfs accross the table, or just the other armies need a few buffs to meet the tau tier levels (except for sisters of battle, they can stay where they are)

Yes, that is playing at a relatively low points level. There is a reason that many events are usually 1500/1850. At those points levels you have the options to field lists capable of handling many threats.

At 1k with Crons, you could bring a DLord with a bunch of Wraiths supported by Warriors in Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges. You will assault and kill the Riptide Turn 2 or 3 at the absolute latest. Tesla is actually quite efficient at killing Riptides.

Two Riptides at 1k is an extremely hard list and isn't for casual play. Now, two in a tournament is acceptable and still isn't likely to earn you any friends. But, other armies can field multiple Wave Serpents at the level, or field a force of Grav Bikers Tanked with a Eternal Shield Bike Chapter Master. Etc.

Two of any "undercosted" model at 1k pts is a dick move. People field the strong crap all the time at low points because they know if you didnt expect it and brought a counter to it, sacrificing something else to get said counter, it will crush the gak out of you. Try facing against CSM at 1000pts that brought 3 helldrakes....cant kill them without some hella lucky dice and each turn they roast half your army. Riptide is in the same boat, but easier to hit.

Thats the problem with playing current day 40k at lower than 1500pts - its really, really easy to cheese by spamming something you know your opponent wont have the answer to without knowing ahead of time you were bringing them.

Riptides are not the most broken model in the game...quite far from it. Only reason people freak out about them is because of the AP2 pi plate across the table. Try outflanking plasma marine bikers, or other such fast moving units, they kill riptides pretty fast. Mine tends to die to a 6man plasma squad of bikers every game because im either sitting on the side he rolled or he rolled a 5/6 and picked that side, instantly causing 5-6 wounds on my 4wound model (usually flop a nova by now). Kinda shocked i never see any Wraithknight hate threads - two 36" S10 AP1 guns on a virtually immortal model barring sniper spamming that causes ID on a 6? And you cant beat it in assault since its crazy in there too? Confused why riptides are the target.....

You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.

And before anyone asks, no i dont spam riptides. I field 1 regularly at 2k points, sometimes 2 but thats rare unless i goto 2500. i have a 3rd but he stays on a sprue until i can build him up right and proppa for when i play 3k+ games (want to make him look epic and stand out more, since hes going to be my Earth Cast user)

GoliothOnline wrote:
We will allow them to be able to shoot at Arial targets for cheap, gain FNP for pennies and have Thrust Moves that make no sense! HUZZAH! Lets move boxes of these buggers!

Skyfire costs 25 points.
FNP costs 35 points

Not exactly cheap.

Skyfire is "only" 20.

And "thrust moves that make no sense"? it has a freaking HUGE jetpack. its about half the model!

 Vineheart01 wrote:

You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.

Its durability is just too high. Its nearly immune to small arms fire and even takes an inordinate amount of heavy firepower to destroy. It isn't easy to catch it in assault given its high degree of mobility and once there doesn't fold as easy as many people are saying. To average one wound you need 54 cc attacks from marines even when it doesn't have fnp. That means in order to actually have a decent chance killing it in cc you need to be fast enough to catch 6+2D6" movement, weather heavy shooting, and pack a mean punch if you get there. The thing has little to no downsides besides very specific counters. The thread is full of people talking about how many points of damage it can do vs how much it costs while not really factoring in that its durability adds a way over the top value to the unit. If it was T5 4W 3+ people would laugh it like they do walking demon princes.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.

Its durability is just too high. Its nearly immune to small arms fire and even takes an inordinate amount of heavy firepower to destroy. It isn't easy to catch it in assault given its high degree of mobility and once there doesn't fold as easy as many people are saying. To average one wound you need 54 cc attacks from marines even when it doesn't have fnp. That means in order to actually have a decent chance killing it in cc you need to be fast enough to catch 6+2D6" movement, weather heavy shooting, and pack a mean punch if you get there. The thing has little to no downsides besides very specific counters. The thread is full of people talking about how many points of damage it can do vs how much it costs while not really factoring in that its durability adds a way over the top value to the unit. If it was T5 4W 3+ people would laugh it like they do walking demon princes.

Yep, it's super durable, and without a large amount of support it's damage output isn't that high.

If you factor in the Support elements it's cost is much much higher. It's damage output isn't that high, and less points effective than a Leman Russ.

Assuming no FNP
Leman Russ is is even harder to hurt with small arms. 270 BS4 Bolter Shots vs Infinity
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Assault Cannons. 45 BS4 S6 Rending Shots vs 81 and 122 with Cover.
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Lascannons 13.5 BS4 Lascannons vs 20 Assuming easy 5+ Cover 13.5 Without Cover
Leman Russ is hard to catch as it moves 6" and maintains long Range. It can Tank Shock.

Oh, and the Riptide actively hurts itself with its Nova Reactor.

Granted the Russ can possibly be one shotted, but so can a Riptide by ID weapons. Riptides are also vulnerable to Psychic powers like Psychic Shriek and Leadership based attacks.

Damage Output vs 3+ AS or Worse the Leman Russ is 120% as efficient at dealing damage at long range.

A Leman Russ is only 2/3 the cost. The Riptide is more damaging vs Vehicles and 2+AS. But, the IA Riptide gets hot.

Sure the Riptide can use Markerlights to Ignore Cover, so can the Russ thanks to Orders.


Doesn't look like the Riptide is that overpowered, at least not as a shooting platform using the Ian Riptide and a Leman Russ as an example. The Riptide is more versatile and mobile, but is not quite as indestructible as some would think. I could have compared it to Land Raiders, which require specialized attacks to handle. Riptides are no different.

I'm just supplying the math, which tracts with my experiences. I've tried to relay all of this information to the thread in the best way possible.. The Riptide is a great unit, the IA and EWO are under costed, but as is it isn't that far outside the realm of reasonable threats.

I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.

The point that team "it's not undercosted" seems to be missing is that, even for the base model, the combination of decent firepower at a good range, high mobility and absurd durability is worth way more than 180 points.

Sure, naked it may not have the raw firepower of many firepower centric models in that price range, but its ridiculous durability more than makes up the difference, let alone combined with the fact it can JSJ and has all those nifty Nova reactor options.

If that model were to be priced correctly based on its capabilities naked and unsupported it really would have crappy firepower for its price, but that's an argument against the unreasonable (and highly unfluffy) level of durability it boasts, not for keeping its price tag where it is...

PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.

Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever. And the basics I used were literally their old Dex stats.

I've seen you railing against 7th in multiple threads, maybe your idea of what units should be is dated by editions.

Galorian wrote:The point that team "it's not undercosted" seems to be missing is that, even for the base model, the combination of decent firepower at a good range, high mobility and absurd durability is worth way more than 180 points.

Sure, naked it may not have the raw firepower of many firepower centric models in that price range, but its ridiculous durability more than makes up the difference, let alone combined with the fact it can JSJ and has all those nifty Nova reactor options.

If that model were to be priced correctly based on its capabilities naked and unsupported it really would have crappy firepower for its price, but that's an argument against the unreasonable (and highly unfluffy) level of durability it boasts, not for keeping its price tag where it is...

Thank you for insulting our "team". Obviously we don't know what we are talking about. Please back up your arguments with valid and thorough arguments, don't just hand wave opposing viewpoints.

"Worth way more than 180pts". "absurd durability" "nifty Nova reactor option" I've said it multiple times, the Nova Reactor actively kills the Riptide. An HBC Riptide, which needs to Nova every turn actively kills itself. After six turns it has reduced itself to a 3 Wound model. This is how the Riptide was designed to be limited. Base it is not under costed, it's price is appropriate. It's still a good unit, but it's not the smoking gun it claims to be. Now, the IA Riptide is a bit different as it's firepower improves and it's need for it's Nova is greatly reduced. This does lead to significantly increased Durability. The IA upgrade is under costed, but not the Riptide itself.

Fluff arguments have no merit here, it's a diversion from the real point, the value and cost of the Riptide.

We can't change the cost of the Riptide or it's upgrade, this thread could be far more productive if it was directed at tactics and strategies for killing, mitigating, and defeating a Riptide based lists which with the release of 7th are going to decrease.

You must've missed the part where I noted it took nearly 3 times its point value in its theoraticaly "hard counters" (aka high S low AP weapons) to shoot it dead in 3 shooting phases' worth of uninterrupted shooting, and mathhammering confirmed that it was, in fact, a rather average showing statistically.

That level of durability needs to come with a VERY high price tag, especially if it comes combined with decent ranged firepower, great mobility and flexability and awesome in-codex synergies.

As for the fluff argument, all it came to show is that there's no reason to make the Riptide anywhere near as durable as it is, and with less durability it could actually be reasonably priced AND have good firepower for its cost.

 Zagman wrote:

PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.

Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever. And the basics I used were literally their old Dex stats.

I've seen you railing against 7th in multiple threads, maybe your idea of what units should be is dated by editions.

I notice all of your calculations are based off the front armour value of the Leman Russ, you have not factored the upgrades available to Riptides or their ability to gain a 3++ save, and your post exclusively deals with damage output and durability when the RIptide has a lot more going for it, like better manoeuvrability, cheap access to Skyfire and Interceptor, and secondary weapon systems with Homing and Ignores Cover.

Plus I was directing my post at other posts in this thread comparing the Riptide to Canoptek Wraiths, Annihilation Barges and Wraithknights.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.

Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever. And the basics I used were literally their old Dex stats.

I've seen you railing against 7th in multiple threads, maybe your idea of what units should be is dated by editions.

I notice all of your calculations are based off the front armour value of the Leman Russ, you have not factored the upgrades available to Riptides or their ability to gain a 3++ save, and your post exclusively deals with damage output and durability when the RIptide has a lot more going for it, like better manoeuvrability, cheap access to Skyfire and Interceptor, and secondary weapon systems with Homing and Ignores Cover.

Plus I was directing my post at other posts in this thread comparing the Riptide to Canoptek Wraiths, Annihilation Barges and Wraithknights.

Also conveniently ignores the fact both Leman Russes and Annihilation Barges generally die to their own points value in anti-tank fire in a turn or two, and that's without mentioning some of the things that have a fair chance of insta-killing them for less (melta/fusion anyone?). Hell, I've been in a game where a HBC Riptide wounded itself every turn for 3 turns straight trying to Nova charge and got next to no ML support and it still more than earned back its points without ever realistically being under the threat of actually dying.

I'll admit that Annihilation Barges are undercosted (not by as much as some people seem to think though), particularly with the boosts it received in 7th and the skyfire nerf, but at least it isn't a complete OoCP for most TAC lists- it can be killed rather easily by plenty of commonly available weapons, it doesn't have serious in-codex synergies aside from the off +1 cover bonus from stealth one in a while (unless you count plain threat saturation to be a form of synergy), it lacks the ability to deal with high AV vehicles and 2+ armor saves and struggles at killing massed cheap infantry (~4 guardsmen per turn for an average shooting phase if it doesn't move and they're out of cover! f**k yeah!).

And yeah, the Wraithknight is also terribly overpowered for its cost, the reason it doesn't get as much flak as the Riptide is the fact it's eclipsed in its own codex by the broken mess that is the Wave Serpent spam and the Jetseer Council...

Legitimate question:
Are there any non Tau players that think the riptide isn't OP?

 Shadox wrote:
Make the Ion Accelerator and the Ion Cannon a single weapon which only gets AP2 if it novacharges and probably get rid of fnp.

IA to AP3 unless charged

and make it 3+ armor

and perhaps make it T5

now you have a very powerful unit, that has weaknesses

 Zagman wrote:

Yep, it's super durable, and without a large amount of support it's damage output isn't that high.

If you factor in the Support elements it's cost is much much higher. It's damage output isn't that high, and less points effective than a Leman Russ.

Assuming no FNP
Leman Russ is is even harder to hurt with small arms. 270 BS4 Bolter Shots vs Infinity
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Assault Cannons. 45 BS4 S6 Rending Shots vs 81 and 122 with Cover.
Leman Russ is even harder to hurt with Lascannons 13.5 BS4 Lascannons vs 20 Assuming easy 5+ Cover 13.5 Without Cover
Leman Russ is hard to catch as it moves 6" and maintains long Range. It can Tank Shock.

Oh, and the Riptide actively hurts itself with its Nova Reactor.

Granted the Russ can possibly be one shotted, but so can a Riptide by ID weapons. Riptides are also vulnerable to Psychic powers like Psychic Shriek and Leadership based attacks.

Damage Output vs 3+ AS or Worse the Leman Russ is 120% as efficient at dealing damage at long range.

A Leman Russ is only 2/3 the cost. The Riptide is more damaging vs Vehicles and 2+AS. But, the IA Riptide gets hot.

Sure the Riptide can use Markerlights to Ignore Cover, so can the Russ thanks to Orders.


Doesn't look like the Riptide is that overpowered, at least not as a shooting platform using the Ian Riptide and a Leman Russ as an example. The Riptide is more versatile and mobile, but is not quite as indestructible as some would think. I could have compared it to Land Raiders, which require specialized attacks to handle. Riptides are no different.

I'm just supplying the math, which tracts with my experiences. I've tried to relay all of this information to the thread in the best way possible.. The Riptide is a great unit, the IA and EWO are under costed, but as is it isn't that far outside the realm of reasonable threats.

Your conclusions are misleading. Adding the cost of a supporting unit is just more misdirection. Let me add the cost of a prescience sorc to a Forgefiend if you want to compare that way. You are cherry picking scenarios and drawing conclusions that are unsupported by the evidence. Practically, the riptide is also immune to bolters as 270 is an absurd amount. It takes over two full squads of tacticals in rapid fire range to take a single wound off the riptide. Not that they would ever get there since it can jump away. Similarly no one is getting anything close 45 assault cannon shots on these things nor is it good vs LR either.

If you think its harder to hurt a LR with lascannons than a riptide I think we are at an impasse. You've taken only the front armor value, discounted the extremity of disadvantage in being one shot, weapon destroyed, shaken, stunned. What are all these ranged ID weapons that Riptide is afraid of that you're referring to? Yes they are vulnerable to Ld based attacks but those attacks are rare, expensive, and much harder to use than the normal weapons that take out LRs but the Riptide can shrug off all day. I also find it hilarious you mark the LR as hard to catch because it can move 6". But then again you may be right since the LR is so much more efficient than a Riptide thats probably why everyone is spamming squadrons of them right? and tau are allying them in just so they can have one since they are clearly better than riptides.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Legitimate question:
Are there any non Tau players that think the riptide isn't OP?

I think they're good, but nowhere near as dominant as they were in 6th with the loss of Buff Commanders and Eldar Divination support. I'd also agree that the baseline Bursttide is pointed pretty correctly. The fusion blasters shouldn't be a free upgrade, and the Ion Accelerator is far too cheap for what the model gains.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

You dont beat things by playing its own game. The riptide is a long distance gun platform, its durability is to prevent the same weapon type it has from countering it. Ive noticed from many many games once my riptide is around 24" from enemy units it tends to die rather quick, regardless of wtf that unit is.

Its durability is just too high. Its nearly immune to small arms fire and even takes an inordinate amount of heavy firepower to destroy. It isn't easy to catch it in assault given its high degree of mobility and once there doesn't fold as easy as many people are saying. To average one wound you need 54 cc attacks from marines even when it doesn't have fnp. That means in order to actually have a decent chance killing it in cc you need to be fast enough to catch 6+2D6" movement, weather heavy shooting, and pack a mean punch if you get there. The thing has little to no downsides besides very specific counters. The thread is full of people talking about how many points of damage it can do vs how much it costs while not really factoring in that its durability adds a way over the top value to the unit. If it was T5 4W 3+ people would laugh it like they do walking demon princes.

Nearly immune to small arms fire my green orky butt. Main reason i lose mine is because it got shot at by a couple units of infantry and caused 4-6 wounds, which i end up failing 1-2 of them somehow. I rarely lose my riptide to BIG weapons, but i lose it all the time to insignificant crap like bolters. Rate of fire no matter how weak can kill things long as it can even hurt it to begin with. Highly resilient to small arms, yes, nearly immune hell fething no.
Wanna know how my orks deal with 2+ armor? Shoot it until it dies with Shootas or Lootas. Quite effective actually.
This is why i regard the Wraithknight as far more broken than the Riptide - T8 is IMMUNE to small arms fire, riptide is just resistant.

PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.

This is kind of an invalid comment. Lets say we nerf all the "overpowered" units so theyre more evenly balanced to normal units. Something will always be considered overpowered and undercosted because youre comparing it to the rest of the army. Even a slight shift in power per point will set people off on the rampage of crying OVERPOWERED!!!

Theres only really one ID ranged weapon that you are likely to see, the Distort on the wraithknight / FW serpent variant, and that is only on a 6.

I use ABG from IA22nd ed as pure wraithknight / riptide counter. AQllies slot, for around 500 points I get 2 BS4, TL if in 36" range and a heavystubber shot hits, small blast S8 AP2 instant death. Generally Im hitting. I also then stick a super scoring demolisher in the troops slot, for general havoc causing.

 Zagman wrote:

PrinceRaven wrote:I like how the argument is that Riptides aren't overpowered because they are as good as other things that are widely regarded as overpowered.

Ruses are widely regarded as OverPowered.... That is why no one ran them in 6th... Ever.

Pffftt hahahaha, sincerest apologies but that is tripe

Unless this is sarcasm in which case I must yet continue to apologise

My only complaint about Russes were when i field orks i tend to get slammed with multiple pi plates across the table on top of the barrage weapons every IG player takes. Which thats more of a counter strat than broken, so my complaint is irrelevant lol. Never faced an IG player with my orks that didnt do that tactic, even when i ran a wagon list/biker list and the pi plates were less effective (but still effective enough )

 Exergy wrote:

 Shadox wrote:
Make the Ion Accelerator and the Ion Cannon a single weapon which only gets AP2 if it novacharges and probably get rid of fnp.

IA to AP3 unless charged

and make it 3+ armor

and perhaps make it T5

now you have a very powerful unit, that has weaknesses

You're kidding right?

You can get 2 Obilts for a lot cheaper with better Armor, more weapon options, better melee skills, and are easier to hide....

It's like saying the Crimson Hunter is a very powerful unit if it were just a skimmer....

Well, as a Necron player, one of my main reasons I'm butt hurt about the Riptide is the fact that a C'tan Shard costs way more points, has a worse save, less wounds, nowhere near as good gun options, and is nowhere near as mobile. Why would a Riptide be cheaper, and overall better than a shard of a star god? I dunno, kinda pisses me off.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Legitimate question:
Are there any non Tau players that think the riptide isn't OP?

I play Daemons, and no, in 7th edition I don't think the Riptide is OP.
Maybe slightly undercosted with certain upgrades, but overall, it got massively kicked in balls by the new rules preventing the shenanigans of Buffmanders or Divination boosts and such. (and rightly so!)

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Nearly immune to small arms fire my green orky butt. Main reason i lose mine is because it got shot at by a couple units of infantry and caused 4-6 wounds, which i end up failing 1-2 of them somehow. I rarely lose my riptide to BIG weapons, but i lose it all the time to insignificant crap like bolters. Rate of fire no matter how weak can kill things long as it can even hurt it to begin with. Highly resilient to small arms, yes, nearly immune hell fething no.
Wanna know how my orks deal with 2+ armor? Shoot it until it dies with Shootas or Lootas. Quite effective actually.
This is why i regard the Wraithknight as far more broken than the Riptide - T8 is IMMUNE to small arms fire, riptide is just resistant.

I have a really hard time believing this. In a dice game sure you're going to have fluke rolls but that doesn't mean its a viable tactic or say anything to power level a unit. 40 bolter shots ("couple" of tactical units who somehow got into rapid fire range unmolested) have about 17% chance to cause 2 wounds as you state. They need to do this 3 turns to kill the riptide. This is not a viable strategy. You must be the unluckiest person in the world if your riptides are regularly dying to small arms fire, or maybe not using balanced dice. The idea of taking out riptides with shootas is even more hilarious coming in at a 540 shots to kill one, or 60 boys shooting for 4 turns. Have fun with that. Simultaneous to your horrible tau dice you must have anomaly level good luck with your orks if this actually works for you.

love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.

Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice.

We use math because comparing anecdotal evidence isn't helpful. Throwing a couple handfuls of dice isn't going to give you a good picture either.

Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are.

This is not a well known fact. The distribution does not get more skewed with more dice. Everyday dice follow nearly perfectly to a binomial distribution which is perfectly symmetrical (i.e. No skew).

Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.

No, what you are seeing are low probability outcomes. Nothing says this shouldn't happen, in fact the are explicitly predicted. However, planning on getting these "lucky" results does not make for a good strategy. If you can disprove what the math actually says, you should publish a paper. You'll get a Nobel prize for disproving the fundamentals of statistics.

Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.

What are you guaranteeing me? Because I will take whatever you are giving. Ones are not noticeably more likely than any other number if you are using non-loaded dice. Statistics does in fact account for the dice bumping into each other, its called randomness. If the dice fell in easily predictable ways they'd be useless. The reason we use dice at all is they are random. The fact that you recognize there are equal number of events where you fail nothing suggests that you know your whole premise is incorrect. For all those lucky outcomes there are an equal amount of unlucky ones. You can't judge the units usefulness based on "one time I roll 3 ones out of 6 dice, riptides aren't durable at all!"

Lets make a bit of a comparison between the naked, unsupported vanilla 180pts Riptide and a pair of the widely accepted to be under-priced Annihilation Barges-

Annihilation Barge (w. Gauss Cannon) firepower Vs-


Riptide figures:




I'll assume the Nova Charge is used in cases where it would achieve a large enough increase in damage output compared to ripple fire (~50%+), which is T5 Sv2+ out of cover, T6 Sv2+ out of cover, T7 Sv2+ in and out of cover, T7 Sv3+ out of cover, T8 Sv2+ in and out of cover and T8 Sv3+ out of cover:




Holy crap! Why would you ever NOT use it?? For 2 wounds a game on average (out of a model most armies can't realistically bring down anyway, or can theoretically but won't bother trying) you get, at worst, a 31.37% boost to firepower.

Was planning on doing two comparisons, one with reactor use and one without, but f**k that- if you aren't using the reactor you aren't playing the model right...

Now for the actual comparison-




So against most targets the Annihilation Barge has more firepower per point than the Riptide, particularly against targets in cover, though for 17 out of 48 cases it manages to have at least 80% of the wounds per point ratio of the Annihilation Barge (which is definitely undercosted, as well as less durable and less mobile) and in 7 of those it actually manages to put out MORE wounds per point than the Barge (ironically, two of them are basically Tau Fire Warriors and Necron Warriors).

This, however, does not tell the whole story- thusfar I assumed the Annihilation Barge remained stationary and did not Jinx in order to fire at full BS. Given the fact that the Riptide has both greater range and superior mobility (barring going flat out the Barge falls short of the Riptide's average of 13" per turn even while cruising) and the fact that the Barge is practically made of explodium when fired at by dedicated AT if it doesn't Jinx, I think it would only be fair to make a second comparison, this time to a Barge that moved at cruising speed and/or Jinxed and is therefore snap-firing all its guns:



Huh... What do you know? All of a sudden the Riptide is putting out more firepower per point in 34 out of 48 cases, a hell of a lot more than breaks even (120% or better) in 22 of those, and only drops below 80% in 6 cases.

And remember, the Riptide, even though it loses an average 2 wounds to Nova reactor failures, is still more mobile, durable and has FAR superior in-codex synergies, not to mention all those upgrades even Riptide apologists admit are severely undercosted, and you yourselves admitted the Annihilation Barge is undercosted.

Mathhammered.

Any particular reason you used the suboptimal weapon choice for the Annihilation Barge? Fluffing your data set as well done as it was?

Tesla is vastly superior, and really doesn't care about moving as much. And assuming the Annihilation Barge will be snap shotting all the time is erroneous. Tesla Destructor generates 5.33 Hits normal and is only reduced to 3.72 while making Snap Shots, which is also it rate of hit at S7 vs Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs.

By the way, the mathhammer was awesome, thank you. I invite you to rerun the numbers using Tesla, I've love to see them.


Edit: And don't forget to reduce the Riptides Nova Charged firepower to only being increased 2/3 of the time as a Failed NovaReactor fails to Nova Charge the weapon.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
love it when people throw ideal numbers to kill something or to judge its killing potential instead of throwing dice. Its a known fact the more dice you throw at once, the more skewed the results are. Its not just me that has bad luck like that, i see other durable things die to high rate of fire LONG before the math says they should die.

Throw 10 or so dice at once. Guarantee a handful are 1s most of the time.Its not a mathematical change, its the dice bumping into each other which cannot be accounted for.
I know my dice arent bad because i also have games with the same dice where i dont seem to fail a damn thing.

I dare you to come to a lecture in Thermal Physics and repeat this statement to the Professor in charge.

Having him prove the Central limit theorem to dissuade you of this notion would be rather hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:
Any particular reason you used the suboptimal weapon choice for the Annihilation Barge? Fluffing your data set as well done as it was?

Tesla is vastly superior, and really doesn't care about moving as much. And assuming the Annihilation Barge will be snap shotting all the time is erroneous. Tesla Destructor generates 5.33 Hits normal and is only reduced to 3.72 while making Snap Shots, which is also it rate of hit at S7 vs Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs.

By the way, the mathhammer was awesome, thank you. I invite you to rerun the numbers using Tesla, I've love to see them.

I went with Gauss because I find it to be a better option that makes the Barge more versatile, though I could run the math if you wish. As for the snap shot thing, you could always average the two results if you feel an even mix of stationary, combat speed and cruising speed/Jinx is more likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:
Edit: And don't forget to reduce the Riptides Nova Charged firepower to only being increased 2/3 of the time as a Failed NovaReactor fails to Nova Charge the weapon.

I accounted for that fact.

It holds true for the ripple fire as well right?

krodarklorr wrote:
Well, as a Necron player, one of my main reasons I'm butt hurt about the Riptide is the fact that a C'tan Shard costs way more points, has a worse save, less wounds, nowhere near as good gun options, and is nowhere near as mobile. Why would a Riptide be cheaper, and overall better than a shard of a star god? I dunno, kinda pisses me off.

That's a C'tan problem, not a riptide one.

The C'tan comes in two breeds now, the "ah hell" LoW version and "lolwat?" codex version.
The codex C'tan is just....made of fail I'd guess. made even worse by the fact its in a codex with so many powerful and versatile options to further overshadow it.

They should scratch the shards off the rooster and turn the models into other LoW level c'tans (not as mighty as the one that's out there though. lower level LoW would be welcomed)



Back to the riptide, galorian if you are going to keep on anctodal evidence, I'll counter you by the fact my decked out riptide took 3 wounds in one turn from a mere annibarge and a few warriors of yours, so I had to make him run for it. I'd also note that in your example not "direct counters" as each and every one of the units presented has additional powers that you pay for and do not come into play in that scenario (the Tark has other shooting options, the pylon is a skyfire interceptor with S levels high enough to be beyond efficiency, the Gark is a warrior ressurction platform, etc)
And when you look at the reverse, just how much damage did the riptide do in return? a bullet magnet it may be, but unsupported, you can safely ignore him while you reduce his surrounding to dust, then turn on the tides when its done.

The riptide's whole "thing" is to never, ever die. that's his specialty. he (in theory) pays for it by being weak on the offensive for his costs. the IA brakes that intention and that is why we say that the problem with the riptide. in 6th it was also broken by the (obviously unintended yet totally legal) IC shenanigans and the fact cheap divination psyker allies were a thing and were amazingly powerful on their own right.
Once IA is taken out of the equation, the riptide truly is a monster in defensive terms, yet totally lackluster on offensive ones. a bullet magnet that is doing what he can to force your attention, in hopes I can get him into positions you really can't afford to ignore, and then its superior defenses will come into play.

EDIT: holds true to all NOVA usage. even defensive ones. you fail-you hurt yourself and get nothing for it. and using gauss really was cheesy of you, you know very well that the tesla is the reason its considered OP, not the gauss. the gauss is, unimpressive at best. (when was the last time you fielded the gauss?)