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But we've already shown that the platform isn't that broken. With the risk of Nova it brings it inline for survivability in order to get the base gun up to a decent profile, which will also bring some risk with it.

And the main Nova ability for the HBC build will be the gun. So when comparing durability you don't just assume it's 3++ and can't assume it's getting 4D6" extra movement.

There is a good reason it's not a walker, and that is that the Crisis suits and Broadsides are T4 2W models. It's the same as Wraithguard compared to the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But we've already shown that the platform isn't that broken. With the risk of Nova it brings it inline for survivability in order to get the base gun up to a decent profile, which will also bring some risk with it.

And the main Nova ability for the HBC build will be the gun. So when comparing durability you don't just assume it's 3++ and can't assume it's getting 4D6" extra movement.

There is a good reason it's not a walker, and that is that the Crisis suits and Broadsides are T4 2W models. It's the same as Wraithguard compared to the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.

By that logic, why is this guy not a GMC?



Why even have a "walker" category? Riptides and Wraighknights aren't any less fitting for it than Dreadnaughts. At least Crisis suits are small enough to justify not using vehicle rules...

 Formosa wrote:
But then the tide still has the same problem, stupidly resilient platform with a decent gun, it's the platform that's broken not the guns, there is no good reason why it's not a walker other than they wanted it to sell.

I thought the main reason why its a MC was due to how all Tau suits were multi-wound models and the Riptide was keeping to that theme. It quite tough but vulnerable to poison and many other weapons that even the lightest vehicle would never have to deal with.

Again by that logic the dreadnought should have wounds and a save because chapter masters do.

I'm not trying to say it makes sense. There is no basis for what is a walker and what's a MC.
Knight: Walker
Riptide: MC
Penitent engine: Walker
Dreadknight: MC
Soul Grinder: Walker
Forge/Maulerfiend: Walker
Wraithknight: MC
Necron Spider: MC

There is a huge disconnect when they started making Walkers into MC and MC into Walkers. I don't agree with most of it. But you can't say there is no reason for the Riptide to not be a MC, since there are several examples of how this does not hold up.

I can actually, it's called consistency, for example if it's a living creature (fex, dp) then it should be a mc, if it's a piloted construct it should be a walker and no crossover between.

So maulerfiends should be mc and tides and wraithknights should be walkers, the wraithlord is the only one I can think of that could be both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh btw I totally agree with what your saying about.the random nature of what.they choose to be a mc or a walker

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I'm not trying to say it makes sense. There is no basis for what is a walker and what's a MC.
Knight: Walker
Riptide: MC
Penitent engine: Walker
Dreadknight: MC
Soul Grinder: Walker
Forge/Maulerfiend: Walker
Wraithknight: MC
Necron Spider: MC

There is a huge disconnect when they started making Walkers into MC and MC into Walkers. I don't agree with most of it. But you can't say there is no reason for the Riptide to not be a MC, since there are several examples of how this does not hold up.

Out of the list the only one I feel really needs a change is the Dreadknight though it probable cause I think the model is stupid looking more than anything. Outside of a few examples like that I think most units are the correct type: Wraithknight and Wraithlords being MCs due to how Wraithbone works etc. Though back to what the OP was asking I feel the Riptide is mostly fine as is except for the price of some of its upgrades. It just surprising to see a MC with both durability and firepower when we are use to the really bad Tyranid MCs and other lackluster MCs especially once you factor in the changes 7th has made such as the Smash rule.

It's hard to say. For me the biggest issue is the control system and the body.

Control system has to be more mental and less pilot operated. A plugged in brain will respond faster and more fluidly/naturally than a joystick and throttle or other controls that you have to learn how they relate to movement.

The body is another issue. For example the Defiler uses large armored legs to crawl so I can see it being a Walker. The body of the Forgefiend is a combination of metal and demonic flesh but with the flesh in control of the legs and arms. The Riptide is a very good example of one of these disconnects. Look at it's feet. It's balancing the entirety of the suit's weight on those tiny ankles and tip toes, while I'm sure the suit's jetpack is assisting it in standing upright this can not be something naturally controlled by the pilot.

Honestly, I do wish they would fix the issue and make a clear disconnect. The Obvious answer is to make metallic constructs walkers and organic ones MC. There are things that stand in between, like the Necron MC and the Forgefiends but that could be solved by giving them exceptions like they did with the Heldrake initially.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I will add, that Riptide upgrades aren't really costed that well. Suits and Riptides share a lot of the costs with the exception of Stim injectors. Having Velocity trackers and EWO should not cost the same for a suit and broadside as it does for a weapon platform like the Riptide since they have too different of weapon options.

Stim Injectors offer about a 1/3 increase in survivability for wounds that don't cause ID. For this 1/3 increase a suit pays almost 70% of it's initial cost and that's not counting the volume of S8+ shooting available.
For a Riptide it can't double it's toughness and ID is almost nonexistant in shooting weapons. This 1/3 increase in durability over a much larger ranges of weapons than the Crisis suit costs only about 20% of it's base cost. This just doesn't make sense to me since I could see small discounts from 1/3 the base price for things like the relevance of ID and the amount of weapons that double T along with how many slots it has. Really I think GW decides prices based on dart games.

Why would a giant robot be vulnerable to poison?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Why would a giant robot be vulnerable to poison?

Because, as the rulebook explains, "Poisoned" covers things such as EMP, acids, computer viruses and the like as well. It's more or less shorthand for "weapon tailored to fight a certain type of foe".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Why would a giant robot be vulnerable to poison?

Because, as the rulebook explains, "Poisoned" covers things such as EMP, acids, computer viruses and the like as well. It's more or less shorthand for "weapon tailored to fight a certain type of foe".

Ah! Understood.

In that case then shouldn't Poison also classify type? Afterall poison won't affect Necrons and EMP won't hurt Nids. Haywire doesn't affect Riptides but it destroys Dreds.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, that's easy to be, when there isn't another model in your class.

Pure ranged high-ROF dakka MC with no melee tendencies simply does not exist outside of riptide.

You mean apart from Exocrines?

Exocrines, good note, they are even a bit CLOSE. both are shooters with nearly no CC ability off the bat, similar statlines and even some resembling upgrades (IWND/FnP have some similarity in durability increases)
But they are still not the same. as noted, I am looking for high ROF dedicated shooter, not high-quality fire dedicated shooter.
S7AP2? that's quality fire. not quantity fire.
Meaning we got a generalist shooter, versus a specialist one.
Despite this grand difference, I'd use exocrines as test subjects.

The difference in guns means that even when the overcharge is active, the exocrine is superior against several targets (mostly good armor targets 2+ for sure, maybe 3+ too, and high T targets.) while inferior against others (hordes are the worst for her)
Their play-style is different though, the riptide focuses on getting out of the way (as he is still even worse at CC than exo), while the exo wants to stand close enough so that she needs not move, and then her shooting gets stronger.
In effect, both can give something up in order to improve their shooting. giving up your health is usually a bigger sacrifice, but the riptide as the tougher natural shell to compensate
So, in temps of how useful is their firepower? riptide is slightly higher, as he's more diverse. durability? not very different, we already established that with all the NOVA and "gets hot" results he's not any harder to remove then an identical chassis with 3+ save is without them. mobility? riptide takes the crown here. giving you something special? exocrine is the winner here, as ranged AP2 at decent RoF is something special, while just spitting ranged S5-6 is nothing unique in a codex revolving around S5 and 7 guns.

So when comparing the two, you need to answer three question:
1-how much (if it all) is the riptide superior?
2-how balanced (if at all) is the exocrine?
3-how different is the price?

3 is easy, hardly any difference. the riptide's price is only slightly above.
The answer to 1, I believe the riptide to be slightly superior. not immensely so, but he IS a bit superior. its hard to tell just by how much, but given that high armor is a major issue unanswered, a direct counter to it is valuable.
This leaves us with 2. is the exocrine in her own right any good? I'd say yes, shes decent. not top-tier, but decent.


So we got a base unit that appears decent, and compared to her something a bit more expensive and slightly superior, the difference in power IS bigger then the point costs suggests, but not by much.
This leads the riptide to be a good unit. slightly strong, but within the realms of reason.




Galorian, if we reffer to the table you presented in page 9, tell me-how often do you expect to see T3-4 with +4 or worse saves outside of cover? even T5 or 6 with this armor is not likely to wander out of cover unless they got something REALLY important to do there. the majorety of "riptide is superior per point over barge" situations are simply not realistic.
T7/8 with Sv2+ for example...what HAS these stats?

If we look at the table of the point efficiency of the riptide VS the barge, where you even assumed snap fire the barge, not quite a fair assumption as the barge only takes snap fire in after-effect of getting shot, while riptide makes the decision beforehand, changing the decisions greatly. but we'll let it slide and work under that biased assumption anyway, we get the following results:




I allowed myself to note up things that are either highly improbable or non-existent as "unrealistic". "scenarios" are cases where such a shot should not have been made available, and if it did then something went horribly wrong before it, and "profile" is when there is simply things I am not aware of a single model with said profile that isn't a highly-specific setup/named dude or that the only thing that carries such (for example T3 Sv2 is pretty much celectine and a single inquisitor type under a given upgrade), or is known faulty and there isn't a single noteworthy unit of that profile, despite some existing. (ogryn for example)
And I was GENEROUS here. some things not noted as "unrealistic" really are, such as T4Sv4 in the open. only took the wildly out there situations as "unrealistic scenarios", as the lowest armor in the game out in the open with no T value of note.
And if you attempt to blame me for taking out exacly the relevant cases, a quick look will reveal that many cases of great bias toward the barge was taken as unrealistic too, its simply based on the profile and not who's better at it.
If someone would correct me on some of the T7-8 armor profiles and show me an example where they do exist, it will be nice.
T7 cew of artillery ignored here, despite the fact you might effectively have to deal with them despite not existing. they are pretty biased towards barges anyway, so that's not something you should complain about.

So, even when you made every possible assumption in favor of the riptide making perfect decisions, ignored AV targets (where the barge will out-preform on almost all and we both know it) and ignore the vastly superior anti-air capabilities of the barge, we are still left with 48 scenarios, distributed as the following:
Unrealistic scenarios: 3/48
Unrealistic Profiles: 16/48 (yes, alot, but many profiles just do NOT exist. and a quick scan reveals most would have been in favor of the barge)
Massive edge to the riptide (115 or better) 0/48 (yep, not even once. the only two are once unrealistic profile and another unrealistic scenario)
Edge for the riptide (105 to 115): 1/48 (and two more unrealistic profiles)
Similar (95 to 105): 2/48
Edge to the barge (85 to 95) : 4/48
Massive edge to the barge: (75 to 85 with 75): 8/48 (includes the riptide's own profile and TeQ)
Absurd edge to the barge: (65 to 75 without 75): 6/48 (includes MeQ in and out of cover, non-jink nurgle bikers/common TMC out of cove, etc, etc)
Not even funny edge for the barge (under 65): 6/48 (includes biker marines)


Just to amuse myself, I decided to do an average. the average result of the non-unrealisitcs is 77.10778. including the unrealistics its 79.41396. yep, over 20% more firepower per point to the barge against a random target.

Are you still going to argue the riptide is nearly as efficient, or do I need to make you a chart to show just how superior the barge is against targets that matter?
And again, that's when ignoring the AV value, who are still common targets, and where the barge will reign supreme.
Its easy to hide behind walls of information, but without properly processing it, you extract information that is unrelated to the truth from the raw data.
Yes, you gave correct percentages of how often one trumps the other, but you made no reference to just how much each trumps the other, nor did you remove "white noise" profiles.
And if you think the "unrealistic" filter made it look worse then it is for the riptide, spoiler alert-its still vastly in favor of the barge with an even more generous filter (if you count the "unrealistic scenarios" that are riptide-favored and count the "unrealistic profiles" who technically exist, but wont be met much, as artillery crews. and while the scenarios slightly favor the riptide, the profiles heavily favor the barge.) or without the filter at all.

 Zagman wrote:


Shuppet is railing against anything more powerful than his precious Tyranids, his bias is evident. Tyranid MCs are based around an overpriced Chassis, T6 3+ just isn't worth as much as they say. Yes, the exocrine should be cheaper. Yes, the Carnifex should be cheaper.

I didn't even bring up the Exocrine lol! I brought one other MC into the discussion (Carnifex) in response to YOUR post that all TMC's are overpowered and none of them are shoot. Regardless, neither the Exocrine nor the Carnifex should be cheaper. Both are very competitive and balanced models. They would be powerful in almost any dex, that play very well against a bunch of dex's. They are overpriced compared to the Riptide - But here's the thing - compared to nearly every other MC in the game, INCLUDING DREADKNIGHT, they are balanced just fine - and all these MC's are ALSO overpriced against the Riptide. Now you are crying about an Exocrine being underpowered, its ridiculous lol hes a great model.



The power level for a balanced Riptide is not "above every model that doesn't make it into play competitively". Guess what, a lot of broken gak sees play competitively and a lot of balanced stuff does not. That's why there is about 4-5 armies out of 13 actually competing on a solid competitive rung, about 3 or 4 of these armies are just clinging to this power level by one overpowered gimmick that if balanced would bring their codex to the tier of other models, like Summoning or Riptide. I have no bias, so I am using the power level set by the standards of every other MC (and unit) in the game, you are however saying that every other MC said be brought up to the power level of the Riptide - LOL. My first army ever was Tau. I own 4000 points of Tau. I main Tyranid this edition because my Tau became OP. You can try to swing this around and say I'm bias (against my own first army, you know, I just freaking hate those guys), but I think what you are actually doing is seeing how much everyone actually thinks YOU are being bias and how it destroys any of your arguments, and trying to use the same thing to strengthen your own - heres a tip, other people have to actually be making bias statements for that to even somewhat work.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

While the Nurgle Daemon Prince using Iron Arm can be stopped it only on deny the witch rolls of 6, while the Riptide will fail to activate its 3++ save if it rolls a 1 or 2. I will agree that the Riptide is quite powerful when equipped with a IA and supported properly, but I feel its capabilities are being way over exaggerated in this thread. If was to make any changes to the Riptide I would simply make the IA cost 25 points instead of 5.

Excellent logic!

Because your opponent rolling as many dice as he chooses to get a single 1/6 roll to deny your Iron Arm, is far more reliable than a set 2/3 chance of success amirite?

Hell he just has to roll 2 of the 3 WC dice you used to secure the successful cast (which is yet and still another roll that could go wrong for Iron Arm) and you are already matching the chance of failure that his 3++ has.

Nonetheless, good attempt at logic. It'll catch up with ridiculous statements one day.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Exocrines, good note, they are even a bit CLOSE. both are shooters with nearly no CC ability off the bat, similar statlines and even some resembling upgrades (IWND/FnP have some similarity in durability increases)
But they are still not the same. as noted, I am looking for high ROF dedicated shooter, not high-quality fire dedicated shooter.
S7AP2? that's quality fire. not quantity fire.
Meaning we got a generalist shooter, versus a specialist one.

Yet you said the Dreadknight was worthy of comparison... goddamn, this entire paragraph just reeks of "bs excuse" regardless hahaha.

When did I say the dreaknight was a worthy comparison?

The CLOSEST I've ever come was saying he has similar defensive stats to a nova-less riptide.

Do not put words unsaid into my mouth.


- Edited by insaniak. Please stick to the topic. -

Meh it was Zagman who said it not you, you've just supported all his logic and reasoning. Though if you are willing to back-pedal on your views just to make me wrong on a technicality of "who said what", go for it.

Why is there a limit on one exalt per post?

You know what, let just for the sake of the arguement compare the dreadknight for a moment, a model you just called fair.

They have the same base armor, invul, and T value, so lets deconstruct what IS different.

A naked dreadknight is 130 points.

He has vastly superior base stats (other then W), lets say they are worth ONLY 10 points for the +3WS, +1BS,+2I and +1 LD.
Nobody will ever refuse to pay 15 points for such stat difference on anything remotely like an MC or HQ. many will pay 15 points to give it to infantry.

A psyker level is widely considered 25 points worth, but he has a fixed power "hammerhand", that isn't really helping him unless he somehow lost his fists, and the "banishment" that is situational, so lets call it "just" 10 points for odd chance they become relevant, the psyker defense and warp charge generation it gives him. fair cost in any way.

Next we got the doomfists, you get two of when naked, meaning you are S10 in CC without the need to attack once via smash, though the need for such high S only applies VS multi-wound T4-5, anything that is wounded by less then 2+ on S6 (T5 and above) and anything with AV values. also as a nemesis weapon you get some special rules against deamons, and the "force" power if you want to try and ID anything above T5.
Actually-that's quite alot of times it comes up, its most quality targets.
Sure its worth AT LEAST 10 points, right?

The ageis, ATSKNF, PE (deamons) are fair enough for 10 points. ATSKNF is amazing for an MC, especially a non-fearless one. (And fear-causing effects are common enough, just ignored because "everything that matters is fearless". well riptide isn't.)

So, under very, VERY releasable prices that I would have taken every time without hesitation on any MC, the dreadknight's chassis without the toys is 45 points cheaper, so its 85 points chassis alone after compatibility, when generous.

The riptide has this chassis, then it builds upon it +1 wound, jetpack movement the HBC and the NOVA engine.

A wound for 20 points is a fair offer. Yes, I just paid 5 points to turn 3WS 1BS 2I and 1LD into 1W.
So we are up to 105 points.
Jetpack? 20 points? (WINGS cost 35, and vastly superior) its 125.

So 55 points for the HBC itself, SMS, and the NOVA generator. the two impressive of these thing come at the price of hurting the user badly when used to full effect.
Does not seem incredibly powerful by any count. and I was very generous towards the dreadknight and against the riptide, and anyone could see it.

Yeah we did this exact comparison a few pages ago remember, and it was pretty universally agreed by everyone except Zagman that 6" move speed + the bulk of your damage in assault + 12" flamer, is not equivalent to having all your damage in shooting, 36" range, 12" movespeed and Jump-shoot-jump.

As a on and off tau player i dont play or own a riptide for a variety of reasons. I consider it to be over powered, people hate facing it, i genuinely HATE the model, the model cost is too damn high, and i love stealth suits (i own no crisis suits, only stealth suits). We have a triptide player at the store i go to, i havent seen him play but would not play against him. Personally i believe the tyranids should get something more like the riptide, not the tau.

You did a comparison of an equipped dreadknight, I compared a naked one to reverse-engineer it into the riptide.

And at no step on the way you got something to note out that stands irregular, though I CAN point out some very unfavorable trades made by the riptide in the pure stats detachment.


As for the flamer, its overpriced. don't use it as base of comparison. S6AP4 torrent? I would not pay 30 points for it. I'd probably not even pay 20. its a poor gun.

 BoomWolf wrote:


As for the flamer, its overpriced. don't use it as base of comparison. S6AP4 torrent? I would not pay 30 points for it. I'd probably not even pay 20. its a poor gun.

wat

It is worth 30 points because it is on a tough platform with access to teleportation.

I would never buy the gun on a MEQ model. On a T6 W4 2+/5++ model who can even access teleport upgrades? Hell yes. That kind of firepower will butcher any xenos hiding in cover.

A quick shunt forward with an alpha strike heavy psycannon + heavy incenerator barrage can throw a spanner into many a battle plan, especially if you go with two DKs.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
As a on and off tau player i dont play or own a riptide for a variety of reasons. I consider it to be over powered, people hate facing it, i genuinely HATE the model, the model cost is too damn high, and i love stealth suits (i own no crisis suits, only stealth suits). We have a triptide player at the store i go to, i havent seen him play but would not play against him. Personally i believe the tyranids should get something more like the riptide, not the tau.

So you use stealth suits
don't use crisis suits
and haven't played with a Riptide
you know someone that has 3 but haven't seen him play them to see how they work

No offense, but it doesn't seem like you're very fair to judge them. You've already stated that you hate the model, cost, and would avoid someone because of the model. This is very biased and doesn't really sound like you have much experience with or against them.

Now you are calculation combo results, not the value of the gun ITSELF.

You cannot calculate combo results properly, there is way too much data. that's why calculations are limited to one factor at a time.


A quick shunt forward with HPC and HI is indeed useful, but because of the shunt that allows you to reach places far beyond regular reach, and the threat of assault by a great CC MC next turn that MUST be addressed, not the damage output given by the HI itself. it also costs a small fortune, due to the shunt's price.


When measuring the power of something for its price, you need to look at if its worth it on its own. you paid for the gun, not for the option to combo up, because that means you still pay for the combo even when not taking it, and you pay for ANY combo, taken or not.
It causes problems on units with tons of options like some MCs, as some combos are bound to turn out better then the sum of their parts. but we are currently looking at parts, not sums. sums cannot be directly compared by anything, and the only relative comparison we got are game results. problem is, we don't have many game result including HBC tides to work with, as few take them (because IA tides are OP, so you might as well, from competitive standpoint..)

But its value in a combo must be taken into account. Otherwise you create the absurd psychic power stacking that has become so infamous.

I'd argue that the ability to wipe out a fair few models with an HI is worth the price tag given that you can fire it in addition to the HPC.

The problem there, if you price it to combo results, you overprice it for singual takes.

Its an inherit flaw in the system of modual armies in a game of non-modular pricing, where the cost of one thing more often does not don't take other factors into account (thank god at least riptide's FNP does)
But this flaw applies equally to all things within the system.

Sure, if you priced pink horrors as 15 per model and heralds psyker levels as 40 each then the psyker overload was fair, but then the single herald with a single squad of horrors would have been horribly overpriced.

The pricing system from the ground up is simply not built to deal with it.


As for your flamer note, maybe it fits your tastes, but mathematical its not a good price by itself. it only is owrth anything while shunting, and even then its dubious.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
As a on and off tau player i dont play or own a riptide for a variety of reasons. I consider it to be over powered, people hate facing it, i genuinely HATE the model, the model cost is too damn high, and i love stealth suits (i own no crisis suits, only stealth suits). We have a triptide player at the store i go to, i havent seen him play but would not play against him. Personally i believe the tyranids should get something more like the riptide, not the tau.

So you use stealth suits
don't use crisis suits
and haven't played with a Riptide
you know someone that has 3 but haven't seen him play them to see how they work

No offense, but it doesn't seem like you're very fair to judge them. You've already stated that you hate the model, cost, and would avoid someone because of the model. This is very biased and doesn't really sound like you have much experience with or against them.

i have lurked here since sixth and have observed riptides and crisis suits online, just not in person.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The problem there, if you price it to combo results, you overprice it for singual takes.

Its an inherit flaw in the system of modual armies in a game of non-modular pricing, where the cost of one thing more often does not don't take other factors into account (thank god at least riptide's FNP does)
But this flaw applies equally to all things within the system.

Sure, if you priced pink horrors as 15 per model and heralds psyker levels as 40 each then the psyker overload was fair, but then the single herald with a single squad of horrors would have been horribly overpriced.

The pricing system from the ground up is simply not built to deal with it.


As for your flamer note, maybe it fits your tastes, but mathematical its not a good price by itself. it only is owrth anything while shunting, and even then its dubious.

It is also excellent to thin out enemy melee attackers before the close combat begins.

Snippet, please please point me to the post where I claimed that TMCs are overpowered. Just one.

Th exocrine was brought up, you commented on so I addressed it in one comment. A better Comparison is the Exocrine to the Ia Riptide as their weapons are similar enough for comparison, but no need to really delve into it. Riptide is much more durable, it's Pieplates are higher Strength but fail to fire once a game, has secondary weapons, it's got longer Range and is more mobile, while the Exocrine is self buffing and has a higher RoF weapon, is more reliable in CC, and can't be affected by leadership based attacks. The cost between the two isn't much, and if you adjust it's by how much TMCs base chassis are Overcosted and how much the IA is undercosted their capabilities are similar. It's just as easy to say the Exocrine is Overcosted as it is to say the Riptide is Undercosted when the real answer is a bit of both, and it is due to the durability increase from not being forced to Nova Reactor.

You asked for an MC similar enough for comparison, I offered the Dreadknight. Dismissing my arguments and claiming your own superior got us no where. Boomwolf did a good job and was correct to just use the base Dreadknight, as it is more Durable per Point and is still a CC Monster. Arbitrarily assigning worth to complex scenarios and cherry picking those scenarios does little good.

I can no longer take any of your arguments about competitive play seriously as firstly you think Daemon Summoning is a competitive strategy. It not. Its not that good, tournament time limits not withstanding. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Secondly you equate Riptides as a competitive play strategy. Both of these are incorrect. Just ask they guys who put them on the table expecting to win and got stomped. Over and over in competitive play.

Did you even read the list I posted and rated almost every MC in the game in regards to their pricing? Clearly I did not state every MC needs to be caught up to the Riptide, but none the less many MCs, especially those with T6 3+ Chassis are Overcosted.

You cannot assert the premise "TMCs are balanced, therefore the Riptide is not." And then use it in an argument. I've argued that the Dreadknight is appropriately costed in comparison to the HBC Riptide. Of course most of what I posted was outright ignored, misquoted, or misunderstood. I've argued that the TMC base chassis is Overcosted and I can continue to do so if you like. I'd like to to show me how the TMC chassis is appropriately costed, you can't assume it's a true premise then use it in arguments.


I don't care what your first army was or how much Tau you have. "I main Tyranid this edition because my Tau became OP." Is nothing but an immature attention grab meant to stroke your own ego.

There were 5 armies that were dominating the 6th Ed Tournaments. Eldar, Tau, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, and Necron. We didn't get to see how Astra Militarum would have done, but they are here for 7th and are going to do well. If you've played 40k anytime at all you know that this sort of thing is common, remember GK towards then end of 5th? 1/3-1/4 of armies at competitive events. There are always a handful of armies that dominate the tournament circuit, and no surprise they were the majority of the books released for this edition minus the flops. And now we have 7th edition, Competitive Riptides took major hits, and the strongest Tau build is now history. If you think Riptides alone own tournaments, you are severely mistaken. Good players and good lists don't have much trouble handling them. Taus biggest 6th Ed boons are gone, and we've got the Imperial Brofest of 7th on the horizon. If you think the Tyrnaid codex is any kind of cue for 6th or 7th Ed balance you will be sorely mistaken over and over again. Look at the majority of the 6th Ed books and the Riptide fits in. Editions change, the game changes. Adapt.