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 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, that's easy to be, when there isn't another model in your class.

Pure ranged high-ROF dakka MC with no melee tendencies simply does not exist outside of riptide.

You mean apart from Exocrines?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, that's easy to be, when there isn't another model in your class.

Pure ranged high-ROF dakka MC with no melee tendencies simply does not exist outside of riptide.

You mean apart from Exocrines?

Who are pretty undisputedly viewed as a competitive choice for Tyranids ^

INB4 "but Tyranids don't see competitive play so he can't be balanced"

I don't think you can consider any unit separately from its options.

If you want to compare different versions of units, go ahead, but if it's going to be about the unit in general, it makes sense to take the most optimized setup, be it bare minimum or IA + markers.

That the problem mostly lays with the IA and that a non-IA Riptide may not be undercosted is something that still hasn't been shown (I haven't seen any dakka numbers yet), and that doesn't prevent the Riptide from being undercosted because it has access to an undercosted option.

It's very much like the Dakkafex is better costed than other Carnifex variants.

Show me the numbers for HBCtide and IAtide, and then we can start a discussion.

The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.
Are they so over the top that you can simply spam riptides and win every game? I would argue no, not by a long shot. That said, facing two riptides with IA, skyfire and interceptor is no pushover. And it would quickly get tiresome in a friendly setting.

A unit can not be examined in a vacuum, and I think that in order to answer whether a unit and in extension its codex is too good, you first need to decide upon a codex with a power level that is appropriate. It is obvious that the different codexes are all over the place in this aspect. Are Tau in a good place? It is impossible to say without deciding what to compare and contrast against. They have neither the strongest and far from the weakest codex around.

If we compare them to Space Marines or Daemons, we probably come to the conclusion the codex is fine and that Tau need their Riptide and then some.
If we compare them to Dark Angels or Tyranids the Tau codex comes forth as too strong.

I think it is fair to hold the opinion that your codex should be able to compete with the best codexes out there, and that the Tau codex and Riptide by extension is fine. I also think that most codexes should be made stronger as a consequence. Ideally, the game would be more balanced.

It is impossible to say if the Riptide is too good without agreeing on what power level is appropriate. I think that a really tough shooting MC is conceptually fine, though.

How is it impossible to tell if Tau, the second strongest Codex in the game, are in a good place?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Who are pretty undisputedly viewed as a competitive choice for Tyranids ^

INB4 "but Tyranids don't see competitive play so he can't be balanced"

Exactly, Exocrines are used competitively, while Riptides trump them in range, firepower, durability, manoeuvrability and have the added benefits of a secondary weapon system and access to a much wider range range of useful upgrades.

Either the Riptide is underpriced or the Exocrine should be MUCH cheaper than it currently is.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How is it impossible to tell if Tau, the second strongest Codex in the game, are in a good place?

I would argue that they have the fourth strongest codex in the game, after Daemons, Space Marines and Eldar. Not sure in exactly what order since the new edition dropped. It has been a while since Tau lists got into the top 8 of tournaments. So yeah, I think you need to decide on what level a codex should be at. Sure, there are other codexes that have it worse, but that is telling just as little as saying that there are better races out there as well. In order to say if something is in a good place and to what standard the Riptide should be adjusted to, I think you need to first define what a good place is. That there are even stronger or far worse things out there is irrelevant.

Ratflinger wrote:
The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.

No, they shouldn't.

The Riptide is a walker and should've been written as such.

morgoth wrote:
Show me the numbers for HBCtide and IAtide, and then we can start a discussion.

Percentage of effective firepower per point for a Nova charging "naked" Riptide compared to an Annihilation Barge firing at full BS:

Percentage of effective firepower per point for a non-Nova using "naked" Riptide compared to a Jinking/Cruising Annihilation Barge:


Doesn't seem that bad huh?

Now let's assume the Tau player has a lick of sense and picks when he uses to Nova charge based on efficiency (any case where his effectiveness per point when using Nova charge compared to a full BS Barge would be higher than his effectiveness per point when not Nova charging compared to a snap firing Barge, in essence assuming that in any case he opts to sacrifice durability for firepower the Barge does as well):


The Barge would still be a fair bit more efficient in damage output against most targets in cover (though by less than 20% in 8 cases, 5 of which are rather common), while against targets out of cover it manages to outperform the Barge in 7 cases, nearly matches firepower point for point (90-100%) in another 4 cases and manages to stay between 80-90% in another 3. Overall it manages to be in the same ballpark point for point in terms of damage output in 22 out of 48 cases (and that's assuming the Barge can afford not to cruise or Jink as often as the Riptide can afford to use the Nova Charge, which isn't likely).

The Barge however is known to be substantially undercosted, is less mobile even when cruising (in fact it often has to cruise on turn 1 just to get in range), has 2/3 the range and is far less durable, in my experience rarely surviving past the mid-game and often dying for first blood on turn 1 while the Riptide usually gets to keep applying its firepower throughout the entire game more or less unmolested.

Ratflinger wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How is it impossible to tell if Tau, the second strongest Codex in the game, are in a good place?

I would argue that they have the fourth strongest codex in the game, after Daemons, Space Marines and Eldar. Not sure in exactly what order since the new edition dropped. It has been a while since Tau lists got into the top 8 of tournaments. So yeah, I think you need to decide on what level a codex should be at. Sure, there are other codexes that have it worse, but that is telling just as little as saying that there are better races out there as well. In order to say if something is in a good place and to what standard the Riptide should be adjusted to, I think you need to first define what a good place is. That there are even stronger or far worse things out there is irrelevant.

Wait... you think Tau are worse than SM and Daemons?
No way at all. SM are mid-tier, Tau are way better. Sure, Daemons got a boost with summoning but psypowers took a hit in general, they are still 3rd. Tau hose summon-daemons with their firepower, and that was with their 1 riptide failing to novacharge 3 turns in a row and taking a bomber...
1 race is better that Tau, Eldar. Daemons are a close 3rd, but Tau are still 2nd.


Also, how is the fact that there are worse things out there irrelevant? I mean, if they are worse and fairly priced, sure that's fine, but if they are worse compared to the Riptide and cost MORE, that's a problem... and right now that basically everything as the Riptide is under priced.

Ratflinger wrote:

A unit can not be examined in a vacuum, and I think that in order to answer whether a unit and in extension its codex is too good, you first need to decide upon a codex with a power level that is appropriate. It is obvious that the different codexes are all over the place in this aspect. Are Tau in a good place? It is impossible to say without deciding what to compare and contrast against. They have neither the strongest and far from the weakest codex around.

Most of these armies as a whole are not really that OP... Tau would be balanced just fine without Riptide (if still a very strong codex). SM are pretty middling but have a lot of options and can definitely compete. I have no problem with their level of power being the top of the tiers, since they give fun games and are fun from OP or uncounterable. Daemons relys on gimmicks, last edition its 2++ re-rollable, this edition its Summoning, there is really only one or two aspects broken on an otherwise balanced Dex. I think Eldar is the main exception to this, where you can't really take out anything specific to avoid it having OP units. Wave Serpents, SeerCouncil, JetSeers, the jetbikes in general, WraithKnight, its just a ridiculous codex. Compare that to the other end of the spectrum, or even some of the more balanced armies. Necron's are very powerful, but not too much so - I like this dex. IG is in the same boat. Where the coin falls flat is obviously Orks & the SM sub-dexes, BA and SW are not in a good position, and DA aren't much further ahead. The Tyranid codex is terrible written but still has options, the power level isn't terrible, similar story to CSM, and even Sisters can compete but need better writing x1000, and all could do with slight buffs. Daemons (with the gimmicks removed) could use some balancing as well. DE are well written but definitely need an upgrade, while everything is balanced internally, against other armies the glass cannon army sure has a lot of glass but is really starting to lack on Cannon... needs a bit more badass weaponry.

I know I've probably forgot someone, but the statement I'm making is this - while it can first appear that you know, "which codex is the power level we call balanced, this is impossible to argue!" looking at the ones with good internal balance its pretty clear they all sit at a pretty similar level, the same one Tau would be at without an OP Riptide. Tau's internal balance is terrible because Riptide outshines everything, in absolutely any codex. It's the only unit that could even make Eldar take an ally (except for Beastpack but you know, he was just a component of a silly Deathstar combo). Getting to Eldar, does not have great internal balance - while it's worst units are still matching some codex's best, it has Wave Serpents & Wraithknights on one hand and gak like Falcons and the Avatar on the other - and now while neither of them are that bad in comparison to other codex's equivalent units, there is a world of difference between them and their competitors in their own dex. These guys need the power level turned down, they are on another tier to every other army and are obviously not the precedent to go with just because they are the strongest.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Also, how is the fact that there are worse things out there irrelevant? I mean, if they are worse and fairly priced, sure that's fine, but if they are worse compared to the Riptide and cost MORE, that's a problem... and right now that basically everything as the Riptide is under priced.

My point is that you first need to define what is fairly priced before you declare something underpriced, overpriced, underpowered or overpowered. There has to be a standard that works as a basis for comparison. I do not dispute the fact that the Riptide is a really good unit and one of the best units in the Tau codex. I do dispute the fact that Tau is the competatively strongest codex at the moment or even top 3. I think that every codex should be able to compete for top spots. Currently that is not so.

What should the golden standard of power level be? At the level of Tau? A bit higher? A bit lower? I can not answer that. I do however think that you need the standard to be defined. You can certainly compare units, and you can see the differences between them. There is still a need to define the standard of what is appropriate for the results to tell you which one of them are fairly priced or unfairly priced.

 Galorian wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.

No, they shouldn't.

The Riptide is a walker and should've been written as such.

morgoth wrote:
Show me the numbers for HBCtide and IAtide, and then we can start a discussion.

Percentage of effective firepower per point for a Nova charging "naked" Riptide compared to an Annihilation Barge firing at full BS:

Spoiler:

Vs targets out of cover:
Target rRT/2AB
T3 Sv5+ 92.05
T3 Sv4+ 102.27
T3 Sv3+ 77.73
T3 Sv2+ 102.27
T4 Sv5+ 85.91
T4 Sv4+ 98.18
T4 Sv3+ 73.64
T4 Sv2+ 98.18
T5 Sv5+ 71.39
T5 Sv4+ 82.21
T5 Sv3+ 64.90
T5 Sv2+ 90.87
T6 Sv5+ 65.85
T6 Sv4+ 76.83
T6 Sv3+ 65.85
T6 Sv2+ 98.78
T7 Sv5+ 56.25
T7 Sv4+ 67.50
T7 Sv3+ 67.50
T7 Sv2+ 112.50
T8 Sv5+ 53.29
T8 Sv4+ 59.21
T8 Sv3+ 82.89
T8 Sv2+ 153.95

Vs targets in 5+ cover:
Target vs cover
T3 Sv5+ 71.59
T3 Sv4+ 75.00
T3 Sv3+ 69.55
T3 Sv2+ 85.91
T4 Sv5+ 65.45
T4 Sv4+ 70.91
T4 Sv3+ 65.45
T4 Sv2+ 81.82
T5 Sv5+ 54.09
T5 Sv4+ 59.13
T5 Sv3+ 56.25
T5 Sv2+ 73.56
T6 Sv5+ 49.39
T6 Sv4+ 54.88
T6 Sv3+ 54.88
T6 Sv2+ 76.83
T7 Sv5+ 41.25
T7 Sv4+ 47.50
T7 Sv3+ 52.50
T7 Sv2+ 82.50
T8 Sv5+ 41.45
T8 Sv4+ 43.42
T8 Sv3+ 59.21
T8 Sv2+ 106.58

Percentage of effective firepower per point for a non-Nova using "naked" Riptide compared to a Jinking/Cruising Annihilation Barge:

Spoiler:

Vs targets out of cover:
Target RT/2AB
T3 Sv5+ 112.50
T3 Sv4+ 117.86
T3 Sv3+ 75.00
T3 Sv2+ 75.00
T4 Sv5+ 102.86
T4 Sv4+ 111.43
T4 Sv3+ 68.57
T4 Sv2+ 68.57
T5 Sv5+ 83.96
T5 Sv4+ 91.79
T5 Sv3+ 55.97
T5 Sv2+ 55.97
T6 Sv5+ 76.42
T6 Sv4+ 84.91
T6 Sv3+ 50.94
T6 Sv2+ 50.94
T7 Sv5+ 63.46
T7 Sv4+ 73.08
T7 Sv3+ 42.31
T7 Sv2+ 42.31
T8 Sv5+ 63.00
T8 Sv4+ 66.00
T8 Sv3+ 42.00
T8 Sv2+ 42.00

Vs targets in 5+ cover:
Target RT/2AB
T3 Sv5+ 91.07
T3 Sv4+ 89.29
T3 Sv3+ 75.00
T3 Sv2+ 75.00
T4 Sv5+ 81.43
T4 Sv4+ 82.86
T4 Sv3+ 68.57
T4 Sv2+ 68.57
T5 Sv5+ 66.04
T5 Sv4+ 67.91
T5 Sv3+ 55.97
T5 Sv2+ 55.97
T6 Sv5+ 59.43
T6 Sv4+ 62.26
T6 Sv3+ 50.94
T6 Sv2+ 50.94
T7 Sv5+ 48.08
T7 Sv4+ 52.56
T7 Sv3+ 42.31
T7 Sv2+ 42.31
T8 Sv5+ 51.00
T8 Sv4+ 50.00
T8 Sv3+ 42.00
T8 Sv2+ 42.00

Doesn't seem that bad huh?

Now let's assume the Tau player has a lick of sense and picks when he uses to Nova charge based on efficiency (any case where his effectiveness per point when using Nova charge compared to a full BS Barge would be higher than his effectiveness per point when not Nova charging compared to a snap firing Barge, in essence assuming that in any case he opts to sacrifice durability for firepower the Barge does as well):

Spoiler:

Vs targets out of cover:
Target rRT/2AB
T3 Sv5+ 112.50
T3 Sv4+ 117.86
T3 Sv3+ 77.73
T3 Sv2+ 102.27
T4 Sv5+ 102.86
T4 Sv4+ 111.43
T4 Sv3+ 73.64
T4 Sv2+ 98.18
T5 Sv5+ 83.96
T5 Sv4+ 91.79
T5 Sv3+ 64.90
T5 Sv2+ 90.87
T6 Sv5+ 76.42
T6 Sv4+ 84.91
T6 Sv3+ 65.85
T6 Sv2+ 98.78
T7 Sv5+ 63.46
T7 Sv4+ 73.08
T7 Sv3+ 67.50
T7 Sv2+ 112.50
T8 Sv5+ 63.00
T8 Sv4+ 66.00
T8 Sv3+ 82.89
T8 Sv2+ 153.95

Vs targets in 5+ cover:
Target vs cover
T3 Sv5+ 91.07
T3 Sv4+ 89.29
T3 Sv3+ 75.00
T3 Sv2+ 85.91
T4 Sv5+ 81.43
T4 Sv4+ 82.86
T4 Sv3+ 68.57
T4 Sv2+ 81.82
T5 Sv5+ 66.04
T5 Sv4+ 67.91
T5 Sv3+ 56.25
T5 Sv2+ 73.56
T6 Sv5+ 59.43
T6 Sv4+ 62.26
T6 Sv3+ 54.88
T6 Sv2+ 76.83
T7 Sv5+ 48.08
T7 Sv4+ 52.56
T7 Sv3+ 52.50
T7 Sv2+ 82.50
T8 Sv5+ 51.00
T8 Sv4+ 50.00
T8 Sv3+ 59.21
T8 Sv2+ 106.58

The Barge would still be a fair bit more efficient in damage output against most targets in cover (though by less than 20% in 8 cases, 5 of which are rather common), while against targets out of cover it manages to outperform the Barge in 7 cases, nearly matches firepower point for point (90-100%) in another 4 cases and manages to stay between 80-90% in another 3. Overall it manages to be in the same ballpark point for point in terms of damage output in 22 out of 48 cases (and that's assuming the Barge can afford not to cruise or Jink as often as the Riptide can afford to use the Nova Charge, which isn't likely).

The Barge however is known to be substantially undercosted, is less mobile even when cruising (in fact it often has to cruise on turn 1 just to get in range), has 2/3 the range and is far less durable, in my experience rarely surviving past the mid-game and often dying for first blood on turn 1 while the Riptide usually gets to keep applying its firepower throughout the entire game more or less unmolested.

Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?
Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:

A unit can not be examined in a vacuum, and I think that in order to answer whether a unit and in extension its codex is too good, you first need to decide upon a codex with a power level that is appropriate. It is obvious that the different codexes are all over the place in this aspect. Are Tau in a good place? It is impossible to say without deciding what to compare and contrast against. They have neither the strongest and far from the weakest codex around.

Most of these armies as a whole are not really that OP... Tau would be balanced just fine without Riptide (if still a very strong codex). SM are pretty middling but have a lot of options and can definitely compete. I have no problem with their level of power being the top of the tiers, since they give fun games and are fun from OP or uncounterable. Daemons relys on gimmicks, last edition its 2++ re-rollable, this edition its Summoning, there is really only one or two aspects broken on an otherwise balanced Dex. I think Eldar is the main exception to this, where you can't really take out anything specific to avoid it having OP units. Wave Serpents, SeerCouncil, JetSeers, the jetbikes in general, WraithKnight, its just a ridiculous codex. Compare that to the other end of the spectrum, or even some of the more balanced armies. Necron's are very powerful, but not too much so - I like this dex. IG is in the same boat. Where the coin falls flat is obviously Orks & the SM sub-dexes, BA and SW are not in a good position, and DA aren't much further ahead. The Tyranid codex is terrible written but still has options, the power level isn't terrible, similar story to CSM, and even Sisters can compete but need better writing x1000, and all could do with slight buffs. Daemons (with the gimmicks removed) could use some balancing as well. DE are well written but definitely need an upgrade, while everything is balanced internally, against other armies the glass cannon army sure has a lot of glass but is really starting to lack on Cannon... needs a bit more badass weaponry.

I know I've probably forgot someone, but the statement I'm making is this - while it can first appear that you know, "which codex is the power level we call balanced, this is impossible to argue!" looking at the ones with good internal balance its pretty clear they all sit at a pretty similar level, the same one Tau would be at without an OP Riptide. Tau's internal balance is terrible because Riptide outshines everything, in absolutely any codex. It's the only unit that could even make Eldar take an ally (except for Beastpack but you know, he was just a component of a silly Deathstar combo). Getting to Eldar, does not have great internal balance - while it's worst units are still matching some codex's best, it has Wave Serpents & Wraithknights on one hand and gak like Falcons and the Avatar on the other - and now while neither of them are that bad in comparison to other codex's equivalent units, there is a world of difference between them and their competitors in their own dex. These guys need the power level turned down, they are on another tier to every other army and are obviously not the precedent to go with just because they are the strongest.

You're really biased against the Eldar, show me where they touched your army.

morgoth wrote:
Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?

To show why the basic platform itself is underpriced even without considering the massive buffing and optional upgrades it can get in codex.

morgoth wrote:
Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?

A Barge that evades can still snap-fire the following turn. To be extra fair I made the calculation under the assumption that any time the Riptide would prioritize survivability over damage output so would the Barge (which slants things significantly as the Barge is far more likely to cruise or evade than the Riptide is to avoid using the Nova Reactor).

 Galorian wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?

To show why the basic platform itself is underpriced even without considering the massive buffing and optional upgrades it can get in codex.

morgoth wrote:
Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?

A Barge that evades can still snap-fire the following turn. To be extra fair I made the calculation under the assumption that any time the Riptide would prioritize survivability over damage output so would the Barge (which slants things significantly as the Barge is far more likely to cruise or evade than the Riptide is to avoid using the Nova Reactor).

I still don't think presenting anything but realistic numbers can make sense.

I don't know what options would be taken on that barge or that Riptide, but without the options, both are just straw men and not the real deal we're supposed to be arguing about.

 Galorian wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
The riptide seems fine.
Is it the best shooting MC in the game? Yes it is.
Should Tau have the best shooting MC in the game? Yeah, they should.

No, they shouldn't.

The Riptide is a walker and should've been written as such.

By that logic our crisis suits should be light walkers. They experimented with that when tau first came out, at AV10 they were worthless and AV11 they were broken because of the sheer amount of them we could field. Might be different now days, but quite frankly i would enjoy having them be walkers - more than half my army immune to small arms fire? sure!

Dreadknight was a walker that classified as an MC long before the riptide. Both look far too nimble and agile to be a walker, including the newer MC the Wraithknight. An exosuit best describes them, which is an extension of their body not a vehicle.

Neither the knight or the tide should be mc's, the knight in particular has had that debate going on for a bloody long time.

If the tide should be a mc, so should dreadnoughts, both are piloted by a living being encased in a shell.

I have no such bias, how is Eldar different to any other opponent I face? The fact that I do not play these armies excludes me from bias, and allows me to recognise the most OP one. Here's a hint - it's Eldar.

Your statistics page says the same thing.

On the other hand, you as an Eldar player seem to have strong bias towards it, and constantly claim they are underpowered, or at least not OP. You barely have a post (in any thread) where you don't make some comparison to Wave Serpents and express how overrated you think they are. You even did it in this thread and its completely offtopic lol.

Even factoring in Tau's Riptide, Eldar is the strongest army in the game. Like it or not, its severely overpowered. It takes a lot to make the army with the most broken unit in the game look subpar.

morgoth wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Why are you ignoring the IA, options and support the Riptide is sure to have ?

To show why the basic platform itself is underpriced even without considering the massive buffing and optional upgrades it can get in codex.

morgoth wrote:
Why are you considering the barge as jinking AND shooting ?

A Barge that evades can still snap-fire the following turn. To be extra fair I made the calculation under the assumption that any time the Riptide would prioritize survivability over damage output so would the Barge (which slants things significantly as the Barge is far more likely to cruise or evade than the Riptide is to avoid using the Nova Reactor).

I still don't think presenting anything but realistic numbers can make sense.

I don't know what options would be taken on that barge or that Riptide, but without the options, both are just straw men and not the real deal we're supposed to be arguing about.

The Annihilation Barge has only one wargear option, and that's switching the underslung secondary weapon for a generally less effective one at no cost. It is also generally accepted to be an undercosted model.

If the basic Riptide chassis, which some people here seem to consider sub-par compared to an upgraded one, is on par with or better than the superior Barge variant in terms of value per point and its viable upgrades are all generally good deals or blatantly undercosted (which I believe is generally viewed as being the case) then it only makes the model more undercosted.

Taking the "low end" of a capabilities spectrum and using it as a lower bound is a widely accepted method of logical debating. Taking various upgraded variants on the other hand and using them to argue that the basic chassis is undercosted would've indeed been a strawmen argument, as the upgrades are priced separately (to a certain degree at least).

Galorian is still cherry picking his data and has yet to put up anti AV and AA numbers which the annihilation barge excels at for free where as the Riptide has to specialize at, and even then the IA is terrible at it whereas the HBC is more effective. Still trying to justify your triple Annihilation barges? They threaten all targets short of AV13 out of the Box and are damned good at a variety of roles and AV13 is extremely durable at range. That is why they are undercosted, not because vs certain targets the riptide ekes out ahead. And IA is more specialized here, sucking at AA and is undercosted due to its ability to reduce reliance of the Nova reactor.

Shuppet is railing against anything more powerful than his precious Tyranids, his bias is evident. Tyranid MCs are based around an overpriced Chassis, T6 3+ just isn't worth as much as they say. Yes, the exocrine should be cheaper. Yes, the Carnifex should be cheaper. I'd be pissed two if GW screwed my army with consecutive terrible codices. If you perceive Tyranids as the balance point everything has undercosted options.

People are still clinging to the 6th Ed Tournament numbers. Tau have lost their most competitive build, the O'VesaStar and rightly so. But, SM who were knocking on Rau heels got a massive boost for all of their vehicles as well as all of the Imperium as Battle a brothers. Tau lost Eldar and sM Battle Brothers which is huge, no Psychic boosts, they now have to rely on their own Markerlights. Yes, Eldar and SM lost the BuffCommander, but he was only really relevant to the niche CenturionStar. Necrons got a massive boost, TeslaCrons will dominate, likely second only to Eldar. AM are going to be very strong in 7th. We will see Tau drop to ~4-5th in power behind Eldar, Necrons, and SM/Imperium Mixes, and will probably be on par with Daemons or below. Tau will not dominate in 7th as they did in 6th. Change your mind sets.

Aaaaand none of that has any relevance to the tide being op, yes other armies got buffs and debuffs, but the tide is still far too good for its points cost, and yes I'm sure the burst cannon tide isn't the best choice vs the ia and I accept that, it still doesn't mean that the hbc tide is crap, it still outclasses every other mc bar the wraithknight, giving the tide a 3+ OR removal of its inv save (let it nova for a 4++ at best or something) would go along way to helping fix it.

Alterniatvly, make it a walker like it should be, let it have its 5++ (with no nova for 3++) and av13/12/10 and leave it the same cost, like a contemptor.

I don't think the Riptide would be worth running without an IA with a 3+. Against shots that don't ignore armor you're effectively doubling the wounds that get through.
Where it would take Bolters wounding on 6's:
2+ would need 180 and 3+ would need 90
or Autocannons needing 3's to wound:
2+ would require about 90 and 3+ would need 45
So you're asking for about a cut in half it's resiliency for the same price.

The Nova is almost required for the HBC, and limiting the other Nova options unless you want to forgo what the Riptide is supposed to be doing. The Nova doesn't change it's potential to get wounded, 1/3 chance each turn to cut the Bolter hits down from 90 to 72, but it doubles the likely hood of getting wounds through gets hot.

This is the problem with trying to make house rules for things. There is no baseline to go off of. There are so many good examples and bad examples, and each having different reasons for being good and being bad, that it's impossible to figure out what could be done to bring something in line.

Also I think a lot of you guys are missing the point the Tau players are trying to put out. Yes, the Riptide is a very durable and powerful unit. But the "fixes" that some suggest aren't going to fix the issue. The issue is the IA is a severely undercosted upgrade. Changing the base for the Riptide makes the HBC an unusable option. By trying to fix the IA, you're destroying the opposite build.

It's like trying to fix the Eternal shield CM by raising the cost of the Chapter Master while reducing his statline and so on. You're ruining the other builds to fix a poorly priced item.

If the tide has a 3+ save the ion accelerator becomes much easier to deal with, so 160 bolter shots being reduced to 90... Hell yes that is what should happen and no price reduction at all, it's far too good a platform the ia just makes it even better.

Btw the bolter analogy isn't great at they will never have that many shots and will never be in range of a riptide that is played properly, that thing should be countered the same way a predator is, as it stands it's tougher than a land raider and is cheaper.

 Formosa wrote:
If the tide has a 3+ save the ion accelerator becomes much easier to deal with, so 160 bolter shots being reduced to 90... Hell yes that is what should happen and no price reduction at all, it's far too good a platform the ia just makes it even better.

But your solution completely invalidates the HBC. Instead of making the Riptide balanced, you're making it so the only version anyone would run is the IA so that you don't need to Nova or take as many Gets Hot rolls and are able to stay further away.

Btw the bolter analogy isn't great at they will never have that many shots and will never be in range of a riptide that is played properly, that thing should be countered the same way a predator is, as it stands it's tougher than a land raider and is cheaper.

I wouldn't say it's tougher than a land raider. You're saying land raiders are weaker because there is the chance to be killed in 1 shot and less options for saves against dedicated anti-tank.
But you're not looking at it being completely immune from all sides to S7 and less. Even S8 weapons only glance it on a 6 without melta.
Again, it would take 9 S8 AP1 shots to kill a Riptide while a Land Raider could take 24 without any saves. Are you going to tell me the Riptide is tougher in this case?

No the hbc doesn't become invalidated, that's nonsense, it forces the player to actually think about useing the nova charge rather than just do it every turn.

The hbc alone has plenty of shots and also has either a sms system, plasma rifle or a fusion blaster, so yep still a damn good loadout for its cost, even with a 3+ save.

And yes the tide is tougher than a land raider currently, by a very large margin, the obvious as you said is the ability not to be one shotted, it also cannot be shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed or immobilized, add on top of that an actual save, so 2+, 5++ or 3++ 5 wounds, yes the raider is immune tk certain weapons, but so is the tide due to its range and mobility.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
If the tide has a 3+ save the ion accelerator becomes much easier to deal with, so 160 bolter shots being reduced to 90... Hell yes that is what should happen and no price reduction at all, it's far too good a platform the ia just makes it even better.

But your solution completely invalidates the HBC. Instead of making the Riptide balanced, you're making it so the only version anyone would run is the IA so that you don't need to Nova or take as many Gets Hot rolls and are able to stay further away.

Btw the bolter analogy isn't great at they will never have that many shots and will never be in range of a riptide that is played properly, that thing should be countered the same way a predator is, as it stands it's tougher than a land raider and is cheaper.

I wouldn't say it's tougher than a land raider. You're saying land raiders are weaker because there is the chance to be killed in 1 shot and less options for saves against dedicated anti-tank.
But you're not looking at it being completely immune from all sides to S7 and less. Even S8 weapons only glance it on a 6 without melta.
Again, it would take 9 S8 AP1 shots to kill a Riptide while a Land Raider could take 24 without any saves. Are you going to tell me the Riptide is tougher in this case?

Even if a Riptide with a 3+ save would be overcosted (un-bloody-likely) all that means is that it should have a slight price reduction to go with the change (which, again, isn't the case).

The Riptide is far too good a platform- priced appropriately it would have too low a damage output and thus be ignored, making all that durability pointless. The answer is obviously to make it a less durable platform (which would also fit the fluff) that could then be appropriately priced with good firepower for its cost.

You want it to stay nigh-indestructible? That costs, and at the price tag it should have it would have mediocre firepower per-point. You want it to both keep its current firepower-per-point ratio and not be undercosted? That means nerfing the platform itself, which is simply far too good as is.

Who cares. Nobody is going to change the rules.
What I want to know is exactly *how* overpowered a Riptide is, using as much numbers and as little qualitative arguments as possible while still considering non-numeric aspects such as range, cover availability, mobility, vulnerability to counters, etc.

Ok here is a number, I have been playing 25 years and seen good stuff come and go, second to the siren Prince the riptide I and r'varna is the toughest mc that's ever existed, shooting wise with its hbc it's one of the best ever in that field and the ia it is the best, this is when you combine them with its other weapons too.

Mobility wise it is the single most mobile mc that's ever existed with notable exception to infiltrating deamon prince's from 3rd.

Durability has already been discussed as above.

Maths wise, all you can get is a vaccum idea of how.it could perform according to the laws of mathematics, since a real life environment is subject to the laws of mechanics and not mathematics all it will give you is a small idea of how the tide works. Anecdotal evidence supplied by the majority of people stops being anecdotal and is just evidence at a certain point, were well past that point and evidence from the majority shows.the riptide to be far too good for its cost.

I can't help but feel that is a little biased.
The most durable MC that's ever existed? Right now we have Flying MC, Psyker MC with access to Biomancy, A FMC with access to Invisibility, MC with T8 and W6, and we already went over that the Nova/Gets Hot penalty it brings it well in line with other MC for survivability.

That's not including CC where it was already pointed out several MC beat it out easily, especially with the Riptide's lack of Fearless and is even susceptible to Fear.

The HBC alone is only an 8 shot S6 weapon on it's own at BS3, Dreadknights are able to get more reliable hits in from their torrent flamer than this. Nova charging brings it up to 12 shots at BS3, which nets it on average 2 rending hits and 2 Gets Hot along with 4 other hits and this is all at 36" range. This is far from the most firepower I've seen, especially now with the witchfire limit removed from psykers.

As for mobility it has the ability to move anywhere between 8-18" a turn without a Nova and with between 12 and 30. Without the Nova it isn't really that mobile, especially considering the existence of FMC, Jump MC that can run and shoot, and teleporting Dreadknights.

But yeah, if you forget almost all the other MC we see right now then the Riptide is the best MC we see right now.

My apologies I should have said "base" mc, only outdone by the siren Prince, and that's because it could not be shot at.

Compared to the tide even the t8 fmc was easy to take down, admittedly if it failed its grounded test it was even easier to kill them as all if them lack an invun save and may have fnp.

With exception of course to the nurgle dp as it currently is but that relies on getting its psy powers off and can be stopped, the 3++ tide cannot be stopped.

 Formosa wrote:
My apologies I should have said "base" mc, only outdone by the siren Prince, and that's because it could not be shot at.

Compared to the tide even the t8 fmc was easy to take down, admittedly if it failed its grounded test it was even easier to kill them as all if them lack an invun save and may have fnp.

With exception of course to the nurgle dp as it currently is but that relies on getting its psy powers off and can be stopped, the 3++ tide cannot be stopped.

While the Nurgle Daemon Prince using Iron Arm can be stopped it only on deny the witch rolls of 6, while the Riptide will fail to activate its 3++ save if it rolls a 1 or 2. I will agree that the Riptide is quite powerful when equipped with a IA and supported properly, but I feel its capabilities are being way over exaggerated in this thread. If was to make any changes to the Riptide I would simply make the IA cost 25 points instead of 5.

But then the tide still has the same problem, stupidly resilient platform with a decent gun, it's the platform that's broken not the guns, there is no good reason why it's not a walker other than they wanted it to sell.