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If we ignore the fact that Riptide can spend the first two turns of the game out of range of most units while still applying his DPS, and the fact that the other MC we compared it to literally has to run directly up the board just to get in range BY turn 2, of anything sitting up the front of DZ (or closer), then yes, I will concede that HBC 2+ Riptide and Dreadknight are at SIMILAR power levels.

However, this is not the case and never will be. On top of this, Riptide is cheaper and has an extra wound. On top of this, you are trying to say that he would be UNPLAYABLE with a 3+ save. lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galorian wrote:

20pts, Better CC and psychic defenses vs extra wound, double the range, more firepower, better than double the mobility and the ability to majorly boost its own firepower, defenses or mobility each turn as needed by risking a wound.

Somehow I don't think the Dreadknight breaks even here, and IIRC it's generally considered a great model...

Pretty much this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For starters, the fact that 6" moving MC's have to make it to assault to apply the only place they can even outdamage a Riptide (who still isn't that bad in assault and more than makes up for lost damage there in extra shooting capability) is not a positive aspect of the other MCs. It's actually a massive weakness they have. You know, weaknesses, the things that balance out a model from just being amazing at everything and overpowered? The fact that Riptide is shooting focused (with 36" range) is just a perfect example of why the Riptide is miles better than them. How is that a good thing for the other MC's lol? This is like when the other guy said the Riptide is worse because he has the OPTION to upgrade his SMS missiles to a Fusion Blaster which won't do be as efficient against infantry... just, lol.



Secondly, you keep saying that I have a bias against Tau.

They were my first army. I played them for three years. I quit playing them because the new Dex was released, and I didn't want to play my codex with a beyond Overpowered model in it, because I didn't want to feel like every loss could have been avoided by taking him (I'm a competitive player), and I didn't want to use an army where I couldn't build with the entire dex at my disposal. I have 4000 pts of Tau sitting on my shelf. Can sort/provide pics if needed. None of this makes me unaware to the fact that people will defend their army to the death, even if they literally have THE MOST OP MODEL IN THE GAME available in it. Me personally being capable of not letting bias cloud my judgement in the situation allowed me to recognise how OP the Riptide was, confirmed after just a game or two, after which I decided it was time to put the dex down. I still bought 1 Riptide just because the model / concept is so cool, I just wish the balance had been better and I could justify playing it.



But nevermind all that - I'm clearly just a jealous and biased Tau hater - I SECRETLY JUST WANT THEM TO FAIL.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Yeah while the Carnifex isn't bad in CC, there certainly isn't a league of difference between it and the Riptide.

Depends how you pit them.

I'm pretty sure the Carnifex does better against marines

Still, MCs should never be that weak in CC, even their farts are enough to kill a single marine.

It's like Tanks that just take damage... Let me run you over with a Battle Tank and you'll tell me how little it hurts, or just how easy it was to strike it's rear armor / vents / vulnerable points with it zooming past at 120Km/h.

I don't care if they need to overcost everything to make it possible, I just don't get it when a S4 model destroys a tank, or a Riptide gets CC-killed by shooty marines.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And with a 3+ armor save? again we go back to it? I already shown that he has the technical durability of slightly more then a biker marine with it while maintaining his actual firepower. three of them if you got 50/50 on overcharging and not (fair mid-point to assuming how much it is used under smart choices)
Yea, even with 3+ only he out-shots every other MC. the armor has nothing to do with shooting. its just that with 3+ he just dies WAY too fast for his cost, and desired use.

Your way of counting durability is pretty f**ked up then, since you're first assuming he survives until turn 6 and then bemoaning the fact that after manhandling the opposition for 5 turns unmolested he's suddenly not very durable due to having taken wounds...

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh, and BTW, is not a self wound every 2 turns. its 4.66 in 6, simple math tells you is a wound every 1.28 turns. just saying.

So you don't Nova Charge EVERY TURN, just like how realistically an Annihilation Barge would spend most its turns moving at cruising speed and/or Jinking, which loses it more of its firepower than not Nova charging loses the Riptide.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And as a final note, "because you are a Tau player and are only used to having a ridiculously OP MC." made me lose faith in you being rational. you automatically ignore what I say and what I present just because I'm tau and you dislike tau regardless of any facts or reality, you just dislike them because of non-rational reasons. (and its ok, we all got our non-rational emotions)
As already noted, I am not "used to have a ridiculously OP MC", I hardly use riptides. I haven't even built my single riptide yet and only played borrowed and proxies, and never more then one. he's REALLY not a big deal for me. heck, Im not even building him yet partly because I'm waiting to get something that will allow me to do something cool in construction that i value more then the power-boost I can get by quickly pumping him out. (its harsh playing an army when most of the top-tier units in the codex as just not to your liking and the ones you do like are the "decent" to "not really working" range. still trying to excuse my stealthsuits and HRR boradsides back to the army, but they just preform too poorly.)

The fact you also think fusion suits and plasma suits aren't amazingly good deals by the standards of just about any codex other than Codex: Tau Empire doesn't really support your argument here...

Durability-wise, I only really know about saturation.

To destroy one Tau Riptide (2+/5++) in one turn, I need 60 S6 hits or 45 S7 hits or 9 S8AP1 hits.
Or, 3 points/S6 hit, 4 points/S7 hit, 4 points/S7 ignores cover hit or 20 points / S8AP1 melta hits.

To destroy one Carnifex (3+) in one turn, I need 24 S6 hits or 18 S7 hits.
Or 5.8 points/S6 hit, 7.8 points/S7 hit, 7.8 points/S7 ignores cover hit

To destroy one Jinking Holo Wave Serpent in one turn, I need 54 S6 hits or 27 S7 hits or 9 S7 Ignores Cover hits.
Or 2.4 points/S6 hit, 4.8 points/S7 hit, 14.4 points/S7 Ignores Cover hit.

To destroy one Shooting Holo Wave Serpent in one turn, I need 22 S6 hits or 11S7 hits or 9 S7 Ignores Cover hits.
Or 5.9 points/S6 hit, 12 points/S7 hit, 14.4 points/S7 Ignores Cover hit.

To destroy one WraithKnight in one turn, I need 108 S6 hits or 54S7 hits or 54 S7 Ignores Cover hits or 12 S8AP1 hits
Or 2.2 points/S6 hit, 4.4 points/S7 hit, 4.4 points/S7 Ignores Cover hit, 20 points /S8AP1 hit


That's comparing with one of the so-called "most resilient units" in the game.

I'm tired so you can run the Serpent numbers for S8AP1 meltas.


So basically, the Riptide is more tanky than a Jinking Holo Wave Serpent, (except on S6 shots by about 16%), and it easily does more damage than a not-Jinking Holo Wave Serpent, with an enabling unit that boosts it directly rather than 5 lousy DAs and will still be useful when the Riptide dies.

When comparing with the Wraith Knight, the WK is 33% more tanky against S6, 10% less against S7 and equal against S8AP1.
The WK has solid weapon options, either two S10AP2 distort at BS4, or triple small blast S6AP2 ... slightly better than large blast S8AP2 against terminators, much worse against armor. As the Wraith Knight does cost 33% more naked, and has expensive upgrades (10/40 for combos no better than the base weapon, 15/20/20 for two basic weapons), I don't know which one is better, they're both monsters.

Considering the WS is considered competitive and Wraith Knight OP, that clearly makes the Riptide OP for being at least 20% better than the WS, and in the same league as the WK.

Those numbers aren't counting that neither Wave Serpents or Wraithknights are taking damage due to Nova Charges and gets hot though.

For example, a single wound from a Nova charge changes it from:
60 S6 hits to 48 hits or 3.75 points/hit
45 S7 hits to 36 hits or 5 points/hit
9 S8 hits to 7.2 hits or 25 points/hit
Basically a 20% drop in durability from itself, which in the Nova case also reduces it's fire output along with reducing it's resilience.

Also going to toss in a link to a Battle report that kinda shows how quickly a few bad Novas can turn the game around.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598945.page

You can't only compare Shooting vs a Dreadknight when the Riptide is almost solely focused on shooting, whereas the Dreadknight is designed for CC. They also have different shooting target priorities. Also, the Dreadknight has never been considered a stellar competitive choice. In GK's glory days, 5th ed, I was the only person I saw even field one Dreadknight at Ard Boyz Prelims, Regionals, or the Midwest Finals. Dreadknights were never consider OP by competitive Standards, not even close.

Over the course of a game when compared to a Dreadknight the Riptide is more Durable ~T1-2, equally durable ~T2-3, and less to significantly less Durable ~T3-7. The Riptide was designed to use its Nova Reactor, otherwise is a very inefficient use of points for shooting in a Tau army.


You can't only compare only the durability of a Riptide(without Nova) against a Wave Serpent or Wraithknight and call it an effective comparison. Its only relevant to Durability. And we may as well throw the Dreadknight in that comparision because point for point his base configuration is more durable than all of them. I guess that makes Dreadknights OP and Wave Serpents, Wraithknight, and Riptides more balance... you can't cherry pick your data.

You can't ignore CC, Wraithknight dominate CC vs just about anything in the Game and has S10 AP2 Distort ranged weapons. Dreadknights dominate CC as well, even against Wraithknights! You can't say, well Dreadknight vs Riptide, the Dreadkngiht will never catch it. YOU DO NOT DIRECTLY COMPARE TWO UNITS FIGHTING EACH OTHER IN A VACUUM. You have to use common battlefield scenarios. For an example of why you don't, if we want to compare a Dreadknight and Riptide in a vacuum, the Dreadknight only chooses the PT for its upgrade, and if the vast majority of the simulations it will win. The Riptide doesn't have enough firepower to down it in one turn of shooting, and a very low chance in two. Dreadknight Shunts T1. Almost guaranteed assault T2. And in the vast majority of the conflicts it will either ID with its force weapon or Sweep the Riptide. These kinds of short sighted one dimensional comparisons are pointless.

You can't ignore Offense in these comparision either. Yes, a Riptide is more durable than a Wave Serpent, but its 3 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover hits and 4/6 S6 AP4(Rending) hits per turn don't hold a candle to the Wave Serpents 3.6 S6 and 4 S7 Ignores Cover hits per turn and possibly 2.7 S6 Rending Hits as well and its at a longer range as well. Oh, and its a Transport, and it almost always will have Objective Secured.


How can you compare only one single point, ignoring the rest and draw such rash conclusions? A single point of comparison without taking in account all possible and likely battlefield scenarios you cannot possibly come to a valid and substantiated conclusion.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Those numbers aren't counting that neither Wave Serpents or Wraithknights are taking damage due to Nova Charges and gets hot though.

For example, a single wound from a Nova charge changes it from:
60 S6 hits to 48 hits or 3.75 points/hit
45 S7 hits to 36 hits or 5 points/hit
9 S8 hits to 7.2 hits or 25 points/hit
Basically a 20% drop in durability from itself, which in the Nova case also reduces it's fire output along with reducing it's resilience.

Also going to toss in a link to a Battle report that kinda shows how quickly a few bad Novas can turn the game around.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598945.page

Yeah well, even without using Nova, the Riptide is still much more dakka per point than a Wave Serpent

Without using the nova and unsupported it's BS3 with 8 S6 AP4 shots and 4 twin-linked S5 shots.
So right off the bat we have about 4 S6 hits and 3 S5 hits.
The Waveserpent can support it's own shooting with the scatter laser, which is already twin-linked.
So 4 BS4 twinlinked S6 shots gets about 3.46 hits.
Which then gets D6+1 S7 shots twin-linked at BS4, which will net on average about 4 S7 shots.

So... yeah. Can't say that I'll agree with that on the HBC.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Without using the nova and unsupported it's BS3 with 8 S6 AP4 shots and 4 twin-linked S5 shots.
So right off the bat we have about 4 S6 hits and 3 S5 hits.
The Waveserpent can support it's own shooting with the scatter laser, which is already twin-linked.
So 4 BS4 twinlinked S6 shots gets about 3.46 hits.
Which then gets D6+1 S7 shots twin-linked at BS4, which will net on average about 4 S7 shots.

So... yeah. Can't say that I'll agree with that on the HBC.

I think it's more relevant to talk about competitive setups for both units though, and then maybe take a second look at point costs, damage and resilience using realistic scenarios.

Note if you want to work the numbers out that a Shuriken Cannon has 3 shots with Bladestorm (AP2 on 6 to hit) and that both upgrades (TL Scat laser, Shuriken cannon) cost another 15 points for 145 points total, plus minimum 65 points for the unit that takes the WS (5 rather uninteresting DA quite often).

We were talking about the base for the Riptide. We've already established that the IA is undercosted, but the HBC version is much more reasonably priced.

I only count the Scatter laser since it's a cheap upgrade that lets it move and shoot while buffing it's accuracy without reliance on outside support. The Riptide has no option to buff it's shooting performance on it's own.

Also I don't count the unit inside since they're able to act independently of the transport and can perform very useful tasks.

You can't only compare Shooting vs a Dreadknight when the Riptide is almost solely focused on shooting, whereas the Dreadknight is designed for CC. They also have different shooting target priorities.

Because doing all your damage in CC is easily balanced with doing it all in shooting isn't it? Especially when you have6" move, no mobility, and 12" range on your template? As compared to 12" move, 36" range, JSJ? YAY GOING TO BE SO EASY TO APPLY THAT CLOSE COMBAT DAMAGE WHEREVER I WANT, DEFINITELY NO MORE CHALLENGING THAN GETTING A SHOT OFF WITH RIPTIDE AMIRITE. THIS IS NOT BIAS. NO, NOT AT ALL. /sarcasm.

Over the course of a game when compared to a Dreadknight the Riptide is more Durable ~T1-2, equally durable ~T2-3, and less to significantly less Durable ~T3-7. The Riptide was designed to use its Nova Reactor, otherwise is a very inefficient use of points for shooting in a Tau army.

This is just stupid, as the point is that he outshoots everything in his points cost before even using his Nova. He does not need to use it to be worth his points. Then you want to factor in how great the Nova is after and the fact that it is an effecient payoff, he is absolutely slowed levels of shooting OP. Why should Riptide have better shooting than absolutely everything in its weight class, on top of 36" range, double movespeed speed, JSJ, being more durable, and the option to trade that durability Nova, all while sitting on the very back of the board out of harms way, and the only trade off being not having to slowly move 6" a turn till he gets into Close Combat range with the ideal target, to apply damage that likely isn't even better than his shooting? (I'm talking about if had had other MC's CC attacks here FYI
not his own).

He shouldn't, you are just being ridiculously biased and cannot imagine having to have a balanced MC.

Also, the Dreadknight has never been considered a stellar competitive choice.

Oh so now the Dreadknight is underpowered as well.
Is there any other MC in Riptides weight bracket that is not underpowered by your definition?

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe its not EVERY SINGLE OTHER MC that is underpowered, and that it is just the Riptide who is OVERPOWERED? Possibility?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oh so now the Dreadknight is underpowered as well.
Is there any other MC in Riptides weight bracket that is not underpowered by your definition?

Yeah, that was just about the point where I went "f**k that, no use arguing with someone who's so biased he'd consider the Dreadknight underpowered"...

 SHUPPET wrote:
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe its not EVERY SINGLE OTHER MC that is underpowered, and that it is just the Riptide who is OVERPOWERED? Possibility?

Hey, it's not EVERY SINGLE other MC- there's always the Wraithknight...

Yeah, hence why I specified <200pts so they couldnt rely on their OP brother

Am I the only one who thinks the 120pt basic Fex is perfectly costed?

I know it's not Stella but it's the right cost I feel.

On the topic of mc's that are grossly undercosted, the tomb spider is waaaaay undercosted compared to every other mc

No, I agree Fex is pretty balanced.

Zagmans reasoning against it is that it isn't winning tournaments against OP armies like Eldar, so it must be underpowered competitively.

I wouldn't pay statements like that too much heed.

Well that's plain idiotic? Every man and his dog knows the tide and eldar are a tad ott and it's easy to fix, but that doesn't mean all other mc's are crap, just that certain ones need a nerf.

 Formosa wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the 120pt basic Fex is perfectly costed?

I know it's not Stella but it's the right cost I feel.

On the topic of mc's that are grossly undercosted, the tomb spider is waaaaay undercosted compared to every other mc

Honestly, I feel like fexes are over costed if you want to run them in any variation other than a Dakkafex. In 6th and now 7th edition T6 3+ 4W is considered squishy and rather easy for a lot of armies to kill at range. A 6" move WS3 3A base, on a fairly easy to kill chassis just doesn't cut it anymore. Regeneration helps a lot but drives the point cost up substantially.

Also, I just looked up the Tomb Spider as I just started collecting Necrons and holy crap, underpriced is an understatement!

Tyranids, the army that runs off of its MC's for the most part, has the worst MC's for the cost.

I still feel that GW has been trolling nid players for a looong time.

Thing I feel with the Fex as is, is that if it was any cheaper it would be easily spamable, if it was say 100pts, then you would see 9 in every nid list, at its current cost it is dead centre between cheap enough and not too overcosted, that says balanced to me.

 Formosa wrote:
Thing I feel with the Fex as is, is that if it was any cheaper it would be easily spamable, if it was say 100pts, then you would see 9 in every nid list, at its current cost it is dead centre between cheap enough and not too overcosted, that says balanced to me.

Having finally run up against a Tyranid player that actually used MCs, my thoughts on it are that GW expected Tyranids to be run as a carpet of little bugs with about 2-3 big ones for synapse and other specific things. They couldn't make them too durable, since any army going up against them needs enough firepower to mow down all the little things, thus sacrificing their hard hitting anti-MC tools. I made the opposite mistake since my usual list was more anti hard target. The MCs folded like tissue paper, but I didn't have enough shots to take down all the hormagaunts and I got swarmed. Multiple kinds of unit selections actually working to compliment each other? What heresy is this?

Somehow as I argue that the Dreadknight is appropriately costed and never was OP, you seem to take my argument as saying the Dreadknight is over costed. My entire argument was stating that it is appropriately costed, as I've been comparing it with the a Riptide for pages. How have you guys misunderstand over and over again.

I have been arguing that the Dreadknight is appropriately costed as is the base Riptide. I counter your ridiculously infantile durability argument, and no matter what I say the group think seems to hear whatever it wants. It's like talking to a wall, and all you respond with is one dimensional arguments while discounting my valid counterpoints.

I'll make this very clear.

Here is a list of MC and how I believe they are costed... And here is how I would define those cost levels.

Appropriate: +/- 10% Cost
Undercosted: -10-20% Cost
Grossly Undercosted: -20-30% Cost
Over costed: +10-20%
Grossly Overcosted: +20-30%


HBC Riptide: Appropriate
IA Riptide: Undercosted
HWC Wraithcannon: Undercosted
Sword/Shield Wraithknight: Overcosted
Suncannon/Shield/SL Wraithknight: Appropriate
Avatar: Overcosted
Dreadknight: Appropriate
PT Dreadknight: Appropriate
C'Tan Shard: Grossly Overcosted
TMCs: Overcosted(General)
TFMCs: Appropriate to Overcosted
Bloodthirster: Appropriate
Lord of Change: Appropriate
Great Unclean One: Appropriate
Keeper of secrets: Overcosted
Daemon Prince: Overcosted
Wings Daemon Prince: Appropriate
Talos: Appropriate
Chronos: Appropriate

In 6th FMC upgrades were horrendously undercosted, with the switch to 7th they are still good buys and still offset the Daemon Princes Overcosted chassis.

It flat out boils down to that the T6 3+ MC Chassis is just not as durable as GW intended or makes players pay for. Many MCs based off of this chassis are Overcosted. Some have upgrades like the DakkaFex which make them appropriately costed .

Gone are the Reinforced Chitten Bonded Skeleton Extended Carapace T7 5W 2+ Carnifexes of yesteryear. They would be appropriately costed today. GW erroneously thinks that T6 and a 3+ are still worth the same they used to be back when we shot a couple of Lascannons per turn at each other, they are not and it clearly shows. If you disagree, just run a naked Carnifex instead of a Dakkafex. If you think the Dakkafex is a better deal and appropriately costed, then the base Fex chassis is Overcosted, which it is.



About a nonNova HBC being amazing offense, it's not. It ends up being terribly underwhelming compared to other firepower options available to the Tau. It's almost mandatory to Novacharge an HBC as to many turns with diminished firepower is detrimental.


We just ended 6th edition and are now in 7th, codices have to adapt to the new edition, older codices often lose something. Look at most of the 6th Ed Codices with the exception of DA(Sacrificial Lamb), CSM(Overcosted PA and Underwhelming options), and Tyranids(Many Ptoblems, Overcosted T6 3+ MCs not withstanding), they were all pretty well balanced among each other. Eldar, Tau, SM, CD, Necron(Wrote for 6thish), AM...

Now we will see what the first 7th Ed codex will bring.

Tyranids codex is an overwhelming flop, Overcosted MCs did not help, not in the slightest.

It came to me not long ago that, with the rebuffing of vehicles through the new damage chart, a t6 3+ MC is roughly the equivilant of an AV10 vehicle. The often talked of "dakkafex" is roughly the equivilant of a TL-AC Razorback.
Yeah, I said it; a 150 point MC is roughly the same as a 75 point dedicated transport. I'd wager the razorback is better. 4 TL-S6 rending shots at BS4 are waaay better than even 12 TL-S6 BS3 shots. Even then, the Razorback has that nice AV11 on its front/side arcs. On top of that they get objective secured when taken by a troop choice.

Aside from the riptide and the eldar MC's, most other MC's outside of silly tzeench shenanigans are hilariously easy to kill. A carnifex/talos/swarmlord will, out of cover, be killed by 6 krak missiles (basically a devistator squad or equivilant) outright, or I think it's like 10 shots (not hits) if in cover. Sure, you can "explode" a vehicle with ap1/2, but you can also ID any MC, as to my knowledge the only one with in-built EW is Be'lakor. And since nearly every army has some way to ID fairly reliably, be it iron arm'd libarians for SM, or eldar through distortion, I'd say that almost every MC outside of riptides and wraith-MC's are hilariously overcosted.

A carnifex should -start- at about 75 points given it's current stats and abilities. Hive tyrants are only "worth" their points because of how rediculously hard GW punishes people for playing nids by way or synapse/IB.
Greater daemons cost is usually only offset by psychic ability. Would fatey or LoC be nearly as well recieved as they are if they lacked divination or the strong witchfires they get from the chance discipine?
Would people use GUO's so often were not for iron arm (though t7 is a huuuge boon, yay bolter immunity!)
And what is often seen as the worst GD? Bloodthirsters. Because they are T6 3+ MC that rely almost entirely on assault with no psychic ability. Yes, they are technically FMC, but if you want to use one to it's full extent it just ends up being an overcosted jump MC.
Most DP are only taken for their shooting or psychic capability. Lash princes exist for a reason, and I occasionally hear about tzeench or nurgle winged princes to act as backups in case their LoC gets dropped, or as an extra source of endurance.

Honestly the only "popular" melee MC is the CSM AoBF prince, mostly because he has that magical S8 as well as a gakton of attacks. Even then at around 300 points he better kill at least 2 squads to even hope to make is points investment back. Though at t5 he is about as survivable as a squad of SM bikes.

I still think that any MC with a t<7 should have access to one of the following: a 2+ save, permanent +1 toughness, IWND or a "front facing" invuln against shooting, kind of like how the Knight titan works.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Thing I feel with the Fex as is, is that if it was any cheaper it would be easily spamable, if it was say 100pts, then you would see 9 in every nid list, at its current cost it is dead centre between cheap enough and not too overcosted, that says balanced to me.

Having finally run up against a Tyranid player that actually used MCs, my thoughts on it are that GW expected Tyranids to be run as a carpet of little bugs with about 2-3 big ones for synapse and other specific things. They couldn't make them too durable, since any army going up against them needs enough firepower to mow down all the little things, thus sacrificing their hard hitting anti-MC tools. I made the opposite mistake since my usual list was more anti hard target. The MCs folded like tissue paper, but I didn't have enough shots to take down all the hormagaunts and I got swarmed. Multiple kinds of unit selections actually working to compliment each other? What heresy is this?

Slight problem with your reasoning there: Horde is, in fact, the least competitive way to run Tyranids that doesn't involve Lictors or Pyrovores.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
We were talking about the base for the Riptide. We've already established that the IA is undercosted, but the HBC version is much more reasonably priced.

I only count the Scatter laser since it's a cheap upgrade that lets it move and shoot while buffing it's accuracy without reliance on outside support. The Riptide has no option to buff it's shooting performance on it's own.

Also I don't count the unit inside since they're able to act independently of the transport and can perform very useful tasks.

That's a very dishonest and worthless comparison.

The undercosted IA is part of the Riptide like the overcosted Suncannon is part of the Wraith Knight, both play a major role in the balance and should not be ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
It came to me not long ago that, with the rebuffing of vehicles through the new damage chart, a t6 3+ MC is roughly the equivilant of an AV10 vehicle. The often talked of "dakkafex" is roughly the equivilant of a TL-AC Razorback.
Yeah, I said it; a 150 point MC is roughly the same as a 75 point dedicated transport. I'd wager the razorback is better. 4 TL-S6 rending shots at BS4 are waaay better than even 12 TL-S6 BS3 shots. Even then, the Razorback has that nice AV11 on its front/side arcs. On top of that they get objective secured when taken by a troop choice.

I thought about that too, but I have to disagree.

1. Saturation shots do not have the AP to hurt 3+
2. Fusion hurts vehicles way more than MCs.
3. ID is nowhere as prevalent as fusion or S8+
4. an AV10 vehicle will be taken down in less than 6 S6 shots without AP.
5. that's exactly why the Riptide is a problem, you just can't penetrate it.

The undercosted IA is NOT a part of the riptide tough, its an optional upgrade, and as such the riptide's cost when its NOT taken should no be reflected on it.
The IA, as it is, should cost about 30 points, if even exist. but that's a whole other story there, and not relevant to the point we made that the riptide WITHOUT the IA is reasonably priced.


Nobody is arguing about the riptide WITH the IA, so stop referring to it. for the sake of this debate there is no such upgrade.
We are talking abot the HBC tide, nothing else.

Yeah I do agree with BoomWolf, the debate isn't about whether the IA is overpowered I think everyone agrees if it is. At the moment it's just arguing about whether Riptide would be balanced if they nerfed him by taking away the IA (which he obviously still wouldn't be) and also if giving him a 3+ is enough to bring him down to the level of other <200 pts MC's. Which I doubt it would be, but it would be an improvement at least.

He'd still be the absolute strongest model of his class, without contest.

Well, that's easy to be, when there isn't another model in your class.

Pure ranged high-ROF dakka MC with no melee tendencies simply does not exist outside of riptide.

And being that having the bulk of your damage in shooting rather than assault, outclasses doing it the other way around in every single way possible, nevermind the fact that nearly all the other MC's don't even have the mobility to apply their close ranged DPS, I'd say that makes you pretty OP.

But theres no point arguing it with you. You will never let go of your cheese machine or admit that its ridiiculously OP, and so be it. Bias is a hell of a drug.

I'll never let go of my cheese machine?

What part in the five or so times I mentioned I don't even PLAY more then a single riptide, and even that nearly solely in tournaments (where LoD show up on the other side of the field)
How can I be biased towards wanting to keep doing something I do not do anyway?

Because you don't like people ragging on your army, because you like having the option of Riptide there just in case, because you are lying about not playing them, because you don't like the idea that maybe he is OP and the fact that you lost while playing him means you aren't as good as you think you are, because you have never actually played against Riptides and haven't actually seen what they can do, because you want Tau to be more respected as a challenging race to play, because you care more about your monetary investment into that one Riptide than you do about balancing the game, because you are a contrarian by nature and enjoy being on the opposite side of the majority to make yourself feel special


Pick any number of these, how on earth would I know how you are so biased towards it, you tell me. Those are all just speculations that I'm sure I'm not the only person making, all I can tell is that you aren't willing to approach this from a neutral standpoint and admit that even HBC R-Tide is in a league of its own compared to its peers, because apparently 6" move speed + assault firepower is a fair equivalent to 36" gun range + jump pack move + Jump-Shoot-Jump movements and they will most definitely apply the same amount of damage if they have powerfists amirite.

Have a nice day.