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2014/06/11 17:28:37
Subject: Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
I think the main issue is its durability. The thing is 2 to 3 times more durable to bolters than a GUO which had been a pinnacle of durability for a long time. I think it needs to lose 1T or 1W or be 3+ instead of 2+. In addition to one of those it should not have access to FnP. A shooty robot that takes a dozen demolisher cannons to the face to kill doesn't really fit well in the game. Especially not an elite. It really should have been a walker.
2014/06/11 17:45:24
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters. Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
You can attach independent characters to one man units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 18:18:01
4000+ Points
Tau: 1500ish
[GENERATION 14: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
2014/06/11 18:19:25
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Experiment 626 wrote: Their worst abuses are now gone however, as you can no longer attach a 'Buffmander' to a pair of Riptides, nor do Tau have any access to allies like Eldar or Space Marines who can throw a bunch of psychic augments onto their Riptides. (and Broadsides as well!)
Playing games under 1000pts tends to really, really skew things as those high thoughness/AV models and/or high armour save models tend to become god tier due to the inability to bring more than a bare smattering of viable counters. Hell, bringing a Land Raider, a tank viewed as generally overcosted and only semi-competitive in a 750pts game is now playing God-mode, as most opponents may have 1, maybe 2 real threats to it. Some opponents such as Tyranids or Orks may not even have anything beyond a single MC/couple of Power klaws that can even scratch it!
In proper games of 1500-2000pts, Riptides are now pretty balanced. They're hard to kill and have great reach, but they're no longer able to simply point at any unit they want and auto-remove them without effort like they did in 6th edition.
You can attach independent characters to one man units.
You can not longer, however, attach ICs to MCs. 7th changed that (IIRC).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 18:19:34
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2014/06/11 18:23:37
Subject: Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
I agree, the place where the riptide brakes is not the godly defene, or the high mobility.
Its the IA.
Without that gun it becomes far less threatening, its just that the mere potential of S8AP2 cover ignoring pie plates or alternatevly triple S7AP2 shots, both across the table, that goes wild, and lets him to virtually take down any target in the game unless its an invul-based-defense kind of unit. and these are rare and often overcosted.
The IA should have been AP3 like the IC, with AP2 only on NOVA usage. then it would have been possible to work around it to being a fair unit, and even then a slight price hike to the gun would have been proper (about 15-20 points upgrade)
As for "enclaves can get ECPA to solve HBC issues"
Its a one-of-a-kind item, that costs you 30 points. and even for that, its still not truly risk-free, just low risk.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2014/06/11 18:39:31
Subject: Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
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2014/06/11 18:47:17
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
why do you even need to overcharge the suit unless your going for the 3+ invul save. my buddy who runs an enclave list uses some sort of deep striking suits with fusion guns to crush my tanks. his riptides make a mockery of every single troop selection in the game, all without overcahrging the cannon. in your post you mention that the tide isnt OP, just two options are. I mean you cant have one without the other, people dont just take the base package riptide for a reason, it makes no sense to say its balanced when any player worth his salt takes the upgrades everytime. FNP on a 6 wound model is basically 2 extra wounds (33% chance to save each wound), its unreal. I see nothing in 7th that is going to make the tide less effective. With the exception of summoning i find the people i play are getting less spells off per turn and when they do their is a greater chance of perils. What has changed in 7th to make it less effective? the fact it can score makes it better.
This post really needs some guidance. I recommend well constructed sentences.
3 shots at S7 AP2 on BS3 is pretty bad for the Riptides Cost. Overcharging for the S8 AP2 Gets Hot Pieplate is mandatory. That is the only Overcharge there is, though I believe you actually meant Nova Charge. The HBC needs to Nova Charge its HBC to be effective, 12 Shots that rend vs just 8 is a must. The standard HBC without a Novacharged HBC really doesn't pull its weight. As I've said, the IA Riptide has little need to use its Nova Reactor, and not needing its Nova Reactor is one of the major reasons the gun is undercosted. I literally explained all of this in detail in my post. Did you read it?
I agree, with enough support a Riptide can really do a number on troops, but without Markerlight for Ignores Cover its actually less points efficient then a Leamn Russ with Battlecannon. And we are talking about the IA Riptide here, the HCB really isn't great vs troops with a 3+ AS and is passable if the 4+AS troops don't have cover, but it isn't nearly as effective as standard Pulse Rifles are.
I am a competitive Tau player and I field more HBC Riptides than IA and will continue to do so. The IA Riptide really isn't very good at AA wherass an HBC with Stim and VT is pretty good at it.
You failed at math for the Stim, let me explain it to you. Firstly the Riptide has only 5 wounds, not 6. FNP 5+ results in a 50% increase in durability as only 1/3 wounds pass through, meaning that 1 wound stopped by FNP and 2 let through is 1:2 or 50%. A 5 Wound Riptide with FNP has an effective 7.5 Wounds.
Did you actually read my post? If you were struggling with just IA Riptides that weren't boosted with either a BuffCommander or Farseer or a lot of Markerlights and developed this much hate, I strongly suggest you raise your game, because had you been playing against someone skilled with Riptides you'd truly understand how they could be played. Or are you unaware that you can no longer join an IC ie BuffCommander to a Riptide and since Eldar and Tau are no longer Battle Brothers you cannot buff them with Guide and Precience? Support for Riptides are down to Markerlights, which takes considerable amount of investment and can be removed.
Unsupported Riptides, even IA Riptides do not have that high of a damage output, Battle Cannons on Leman Russes are scarier at that point in time. And you can get Ignores Cover on Russes now. Riptides are strong, but they aren't the worst offenders in 7th. The transition to 7th actually robbed them of some of the things that put them over the top.
The Riptide is nowhere near as dominant as it was in 6th. Its lost a lot of the support that made it great. Yes it can score, but even naked tactical marines stand a good chance of breaking and running them down so they really can't hold an objective.
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
This argument falls apart rather quickly once you start comparing the Riptide to other MCs, and I'm completely ignoring upgrades and the nova reactor...
I used it once. needed to clear some guardsmen in cover with my HBC/SMS/ECPA tide, and didnt want to burn markerlights.
Highly situational, but comes up. (double-fusion on a tank comes to mind)
The 4d6 jump and 3++ can also save your ass in a pinch. though with the IA its often easier to just blow them to bits.
I don't know a single gun as reliable, powerful, high ranged and not limited use as the IA. there are very few things that can out-gun it.
Galorian-as for your comparison, many of them are sub-par setups, "wrong" setups, on in case of the stalker, just a poor unit overall. you would do much better comparing dreadknights for example, when decked out-as people play them, and as they truly work, or take the other high-end MCs like crones, flyrants, demon princes, greater demons of sorts, wraithknight/lord.
The HBC is not BAD at any count, but not OP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 18:52:10
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2014/06/11 18:49:16
Subject: Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Vector Strike wrote: Zagman, with Enclaves you can get an ECPA for the HBC and reduce the Gets Hot problem, alleviating the use of markerlights
I find the Riptide to be ok. Without Marines/Eldar/Buffmander, it's on its own, needing markerlights as any other Tau unit
Oh, I am fully aware of that as I run a Farsight Enclaves army. The ECPA is a bargain at 30pts, and ironically is a wast on an IA Riptide. An HBC Riptide with ECPA is better IMO than an IA Riptide.
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively. Here is my honest take on the Riptide in 7th and how it is costed.
The Base HBC Riptide is costed appropriately. The HBC Riptide needs to use its Nova Reactor every turn to be effective, that risk comes at an average cost of 2W over the course of a an average 6Turn game. Also, assuming 4 Successful Nova Charges and firing the Riptide Risks 1.33 Unsaved Gets Hot wounds. Without Nova Charging its HBC every turn you end up with 8 S6 Non rending shots plus a secondary weapon which is relatively low damage output for 180pts especially compared with the damage output of say a Leman Russ Battlecannon. Nova Charged it can be effective, but Riptides do not remain 180pts, they need upgrades, and they need support.
Lets talk upgrades...
Stim Injector: Basically 50% more Riptide in terms of durability for 20% its cost which is actually appropriately costed for FNP upgrades. For instance a Stim Injector on a base Tau Commander is only 18%, and with upgrades can be near 8% cost after upgrades. The biggest cost for the Stim Injector is its Opportunity Cost, if it has a Stim Injector it can't have both a Velocity Tracker and Early Warning Override.
Velocity Tracker: Optional Skyfire. A good investment on the HBC Riptide, marginal on an IA Riptide.
Early Warning Override: Interceptor. 5 pts. This is stupid cheap and stupid good. Should have been costed more for a Riptide, 20pts would have been appropriate. Its really only the Overcharged Option that is too good, it should have been AP3 like a Battle Cannon and it would have been much much less of a problem. The biggest boon for the IA Riptide is that it has no need to use its NovaReactor unless it is for RippleFire, Shield, or Boost which are fairly rare. By not being required to use the Nova Reactor the IA Riptide has a large boost to durability. The standard fire mode of Heavy 3 S7 AP2 is actually quite poor on a BS3 model, but the Overcharged Option doesn't care about BS and is more efficient as using Markerlight Support for removing cover instead of boosting Balistic Skill.
Ion Accelerator: They messed up the IA, it is simply better than its upgrade cost. It is easily a 35pt Upgrade for 5pts. IMO it should have been...
Normal: Heavy 4 S7 AP3 Gets Hot
Overcharged: Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot
Novacharged: Ordinance 1 S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot
...as a 5 pt upgrade.
Lets Talk Support
With the transition to 7th we've lost the BuffCommander and Farseer Support. The only thing that is left is Markerlights.
HBC requires 3 Marker lights to boost to BS6 to avoid Gets Hot and hit on 2s. Another 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
IA Riptide only requires 2 Markerlights to ignore cover.
Markerlight Support that is being used to boost a Riptide is not being used for other purposes. It takes 10 Pathfinders to full buff a HBC Riptide and only 4 Pathfinders to fully buff an IA Riptide.
Stock HBC Riptide 180pts is appropriately costed. It is durably but Nova Charging its HBC each turn is dangerous. It also requires quite a bit of Marker light Support to be effective to increase its Ballistic Skill and possibly Ignore Cover.
190pt IAEWO Riptide is under-costed. IMO it should cost 235pts for that set up. It benefits from not requiring Nova Charging its Weapon and reduced Markerlight Support. It only fires 5 out every 6 turns which reduces its damage output, but Ignores Cover from Markerlights is huge.
Saying Riptides are under costed is a fallacy, it is two upgrades that the Riptide has access to, the Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override which are too good. The biggest offender is the Ion Accelerator. It needed a profile which incentives Nova Charging by not offering AP2, its Large Blast option also reduces its load on Tau Support elements.
Riptides in Assault: Riptides have been dropped to a single Smash Attack which has reduced their already Paltry CC ability. This means assaulting Vehicles is out, and naked Tactical will still beat and run down Riptides in CC.
The Riptide certainly is a good unit, but with the loss of the BuffCommander and Farseer Support their overall power level has been diminished considerably. Even the 1/6 Get's Hot results on the Overcharged IA will be noticed. They are still good, but are far from the most broken units that will be fielded. They aren't Wave Serpents... And with the other changes to 7th Edition reinforcing Objective Secured Scoring Tau are going to drift to upper Middle of the pack quite rappidly. They are likely to drift out of the Top 4 armies spot. Necron, Eldar, and Daemons are going to solidly hold the top three in the early days of 7th.
The days of fields of Riptides winning games on autopilot are over, now they are going to require considerable Markerligtht Support to even resemble the efficiency they had in 7th, not to mention what the loss of the O'VesaStar is going to do to Tau's Top Tier Builds. Looking at what I will be fielding for Tournaments and GTs this year I'm looking at my Eldar as a main with some Tau Allied, as I don't see a pure Tau force, even with the lack of restrictions as far as incorporating Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave in the same CAD as being one of the top Tournament builds. I still think I will be able to dominate a local and smaller tournament scene with them, but they won't hold a candle to some of the Imperial and Eldar builds we are going to see.
In Summary: The Riptide is often exaggerated in its firepower or cost. It has two upgrades which cost less than they should which makes for a quite effective unit. The changes for 7th are going to really take their toll on the Riptide and we'll be seeing fewer of them on the tables soon enough.
This argument falls apart rather quickly once you start comparing the Riptide to other MCs, and I'm completely ignoring upgrades and the nova reactor...
Nemesis Dreadnight with Heavy Psycannon:
WS5 BS4 S6 T6 4W I4 3A Ld10 Sv2+/5++ | 6" moves
Heavy Psycannon- 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Rending
170pts
So... How is the base Riptide, devoid of any upgrades or nova charging, not undercosted for its capabilities compared to any of the above?
If you feel I've somehow cherry picked only bottom rung MCs for comparison feel free to bring up more cost efficient ones to compare.
Maybe you should may the Riptides you face move as Jetpack Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. Only a 6" move. Also, just about all of those listed are Fearless or much more capable in CC, have much better initiatives. For instance the Dreadknight for 130pts has 5 S10 Attacks at WS5 I4 on the Charge. Carnifexes certainly are overcosted, not as bad as last codex, but still are. And they still dominate a Riptide in CC. Also, don't forget about special rules.
Base Dreadknight is cheaper, a CC Monster, and only has one less wound. Built in Psychic Defense. ML1. Is S10. And for 30pts gets a Torrent Flamer which makes it pretty damned effective.
Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Edit: About Ripplefire, it is actually phenomenal. On a Velocity Tracker Riptide and a fusion Blaster, Double Tapping against Flyers is so useful. Also Ripplefire SMS is great as well for clearing objetive campers off of Objectives when you don't have the Markerlights to spare.
Thrust can win Games.
Usually Shield is a Trap unless you really really need it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 18:56:57
BoomWolf wrote: I used it once. needed to clear some guardsmen in cover with my HBC/SMS/ECPA tide, and didnt want to burn markerlights.
Highly situational, but comes up. (double-fusion on a tank comes to mind)
The 4d6 jump and 3++ can also save your ass in a pinch. though with the IA its often easier to just blow them to bits.
I don't know a single gun as reliable, powerful, high ranged and not limited use as the IA. there are very few things that can out-gun it.
Galorian-as for your comparison, many of them are sub-par setups, "wrong" setups, on in case of the stalker, just a poor unit overall. you would do much better comparing dreadknights for example, when decked out-as people play them, and as they truly work, or take the other high-end MCs like crones, flyrants, demon princes, greater demons of sorts, wraithknight/lord.
The HBC is not BAD at any count, but not OP.
So it's ok because it's comparable to those overpowered FMCs that often dominate tournaments or the Wraithknight?
Give me a break...
6,000pts (over 5,000 painted to various degrees, rest are still on the sprues)
2014/06/11 18:57:49
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Zagman wrote: Wow, I see Riptide hate is alive and well in 7th. I do play Tau, I do play Riptides, I do play Competitively.
Don't worry, give it a month or three and the Imperials will eventually clue into just how game-breaking the new Santic Daemonology lore is, abuse the crap out of it like no tomorrow, and the rest of us Xenos players will be back under the heels of the Emperor's "finest."
2014/06/11 19:00:44
Subject: Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
BoomWolf wrote: I used it once. needed to clear some guardsmen in cover with my HBC/SMS/ECPA tide, and didnt want to burn markerlights.
Highly situational, but comes up. (double-fusion on a tank comes to mind)
The 4d6 jump and 3++ can also save your ass in a pinch. though with the IA its often easier to just blow them to bits.
I don't know a single gun as reliable, powerful, high ranged and not limited use as the IA. there are very few things that can out-gun it.
Galorian-as for your comparison, many of them are sub-par setups, "wrong" setups, on in case of the stalker, just a poor unit overall. you would do much better comparing dreadknights for example, when decked out-as people play them, and as they truly work, or take the other high-end MCs like crones, flyrants, demon princes, greater demons of sorts, wraithknight/lord.
The HBC is not BAD at any count, but not OP.
So it's ok because it's comparable to those overpowered FMCs that often dominate tournaments or the Wraithknight?
Give me a break...
None of these is overpowered in the current incarnation of how FMC works, also you ignored me pointing out the wraithLORD or a decked-out dreadknight, who is far more powerful then semi-decked ones (the sword is AMAZING, as it applies the rerolls to guns as well)
Necrons MCs are terribad, get over it. your barges are still 1# on the "most underpriced unit" list, putting even the (admittedly OP) IA riptides to shame.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 19:04:36
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2014/06/11 19:09:29
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Zagman wrote: Maybe you should may the Riptides you face move as Jetpack Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. Only a 6" move. Also, just about all of those listed are Fearless or much more capable in CC, have much better initiatives. For instance the Dreadknight for 130pts has 5 S10 Attacks at WS5 I4 on the Charge. Carnifexes certainly are overcosted, not as bad as last codex, but still are. And they still dominate a Riptide in CC. Also, don't forget about special rules.
Base Dreadknight is cheaper, a CC Monster, and only has one less wound. Built in Psychic Defense. ML1. Is S10. And for 30pts gets a Torrent Flamer which makes it pretty damned effective.
They'll NEVER catch a Riptide in CC unless his player is smoking weed midgame or the Dreadnight shells out for a 75pt upgrade, there nothing "only" about a 6+2d6" move per turn while shooting on a 30"+ ranged MC.
And in case you haven't noticed, the most useful special rules I'm ignoring are the Riptide's own...
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
6,000pts (over 5,000 painted to various degrees, rest are still on the sprues)
2014/06/11 19:36:59
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Zagman wrote: Maybe you should may the Riptides you face move as Jetpack Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. Only a 6" move. Also, just about all of those listed are Fearless or much more capable in CC, have much better initiatives. For instance the Dreadknight for 130pts has 5 S10 Attacks at WS5 I4 on the Charge. Carnifexes certainly are overcosted, not as bad as last codex, but still are. And they still dominate a Riptide in CC. Also, don't forget about special rules.
Base Dreadknight is cheaper, a CC Monster, and only has one less wound. Built in Psychic Defense. ML1. Is S10. And for 30pts gets a Torrent Flamer which makes it pretty damned effective.
They'll NEVER catch a Riptide in CC unless his player is smoking weed midgame or the Dreadnight shells out for a 75pt upgrade, there nothing "only" about a 6+2d6" move per turn while shooting on a 30"+ ranged MC.
And in case you haven't noticed, the most useful special rules I'm ignoring are the Riptide's own...
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
Why are you using a logical fallacy of thinking the Dreadknight needs to be compared to fighting and catching a Riptide for a valid Comparison? And Dreadknights will catch a Riptide T3 in just about all deployments short of Hammer and Anvil. And if we are having them fight each other, the Dreadknight has a Personal Teleporter, 205 pts, catches a Riptide T1, assaults it T2 and sweeps it. I guess in these useless vacuum comparison the Dreadknight is overpowered. Dreadknights are not effective counters for Riptides unless they have PTs. Why do you assume for a relative value worth they have to fight each other? I can do that too, but I am trying to be objective and fair.
And the biggest Special Rule, the Nova Reactor actively kills the Riptide.
And comparing the Riptide to either overcosted MCs, poor loadouts or using onesided scenarios for comparisons is valid? Have you missed all of my comparisions to a Leman Russ where the Leman Russ deals more damage per game at range than an IA Ripted for 2/3 the cost? Everything as a whole must be examined. Only the IA and EWO upgrades are undercosted and even so it doesn't make the Riptide even one of the biggest offenders of 7th Edition. There are so many many other units that get that role..... Wave Serpents.... Belakor.... Wraithknights..... Night Scythes..... Annihilation Barges..... CCB Lord..... OS Land Raiders..... Knights..... LOW...... SeerStar..... Lash DPs...... Nurgle 2+ Flying Summoners... Rerollable every save in CC for Imperial Forces... and that list can go on and on.
Edit: And one final point, comparing one "Blatantly Overpowered" MC to another "Blatantly Overpowered MC" does have a point, it shows where the Riptide is in the whole continuum of choices and every more OP choice I can put gives us a better perspective. Riptide certainly is one of the best MCs in the game, I've never ever said otherwise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 19:40:13
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
So there's no baseline then? You've established there are MC below the curve. But we can't compare it to others above the curve to see where the curve actually is?
And I really have to agree with Zagman's breakdown. I'm even willing to argue that the Riptide has a very open weakness in that it needs to actively rely on squishy support units to be effective. Without support the Riptide falls in more inline with it's cost.
But we're Tau, nobody ever factors in the cost or fragility of our support units. They just assume everything gets BS10 and ignores cover all the time every time.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
2014/06/11 19:59:57
Subject: Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
So there's no baseline then? You've established there are MC below the curve. But we can't compare it to others above the curve to see where the curve actually is?
And I really have to agree with Zagman's breakdown. I'm even willing to argue that the Riptide has a very open weakness in that it needs to actively rely on squishy support units to be effective. Without support the Riptide falls in more inline with it's cost.
But we're Tau, nobody ever factors in the cost or fragility of our support units. They just assume everything gets BS10 and ignores cover all the time every time.
I've seen Tau dominate too often by a wide margin to believe they're anything other than OP. It always takes far more points than a riptide costs, to take out a riptide and I've yet to see a riptide not earn its points back.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
2014/06/11 20:11:19
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
Zagman wrote: Now, lets compare it to a Wraithknight......
Comparing one blatantly overpowered MC to another blatantly overpowered MC is rather pointless.
So there's no baseline then? You've established there are MC below the curve. But we can't compare it to others above the curve to see where the curve actually is?
And I really have to agree with Zagman's breakdown. I'm even willing to argue that the Riptide has a very open weakness in that it needs to actively rely on squishy support units to be effective. Without support the Riptide falls in more inline with it's cost.
But we're Tau, nobody ever factors in the cost or fragility of our support units. They just assume everything gets BS10 and ignores cover all the time every time.
I've seen Tau dominate too often by a wide margin to believe they're anything other than OP. It always takes far more points than a riptide costs, to take out a riptide and I've yet to see a riptide not earn its points back.
Maybe that was 100% true in 6th edition, but we're not in 6th edition anymore...
In 7th edition, the Riptide has been taken down a fair few notches to the point that a couple of it's upgrades are still somewhat undercosted, but overall, the Riptide itself is now overall much closer to a decently balanced unit.
Sure it's still a great buy for any Tau army, but it's no longer THE army itself anymore.
2014/06/11 20:15:17
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
I've seen Tau dominate too often by a wide margin to believe they're anything other than OP. It always takes far more points than a riptide costs, to take out a riptide and I've yet to see a riptide not earn its points back.
I've seen multiple games where Riptides did 2-3 wounds to themselves while maybe dealing out almost no damage in return before getting killed off. I've seen games where a Riptide gets instant killed by beast hunter shells or one of the "removed from play on initiative test" powers before killing anything. I've had games where a Riptide got taken down by bolter fire, swept in assault, and killed off with Psychic Shrieks.
Psychic shriek is pretty good against Riptides since you can't join Farseers to them. The opposing player only has to toss one die, has a 50% to cast and no chance to peril, while the Tau player will have to save up several dice just to have an off chance to defend against it. They will also get Psychic shriek for free if they put all their dice into Telepathy which is pretty good and can now cast it regardless of their level (I.e. a lvl 1 can cast invisibility and psychich shriek on a lucky roll). Also the flying spell casters now get to stay in the skies longer since they take less grounding checks.
It also really depends on the load outs of the Riptides. I'll agree that the IA is a very cheap upgrade for an amazing gun, provided it has markerlight support. A stock HBC Riptide will probably not earn it's points back easily or without a lot of luck. Again, it's not the Riptide itself, it's the cost of the IA.
I'm not saying they aren't good, but it's really hard to draw the line as to what's really overpowered with so many overpowered and so many crap units. Personally I hate the Eternal Shield Chapter Master. Wave Serpents are over powered. The Dataslate Deamon Prince. The many new funky Imperial deathstars. Cheap psykers that get to toss around Prescience on any battle brothers.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
2014/06/11 20:22:18
Subject: Re:Riptide: over priced? underpriced? or good cost?
The Riptide has lost quite a bit. It is still great, but it alone won't win armies.
I've seen my Riptides not "earn their points back" on many occasions. I've seen it many more times in Battle Reports.
One of my favorites was in 6th Ed a BA Assault Squad arrived from a Drop Pod. Naturally I decided to Intercept them with my IA Riptide, but they were too close for the Overcharged option so I single shot it and the TLFB killing 2. They had combat squadded and opened up on some of my army. In my next turn I proceed to assault the three man squad with one Riptide, and shoot then assault the other five man squad. Three rounds of CC later both of my Riptides had been ran down and all they killed was 7 Marines!
Luckily, I got him to over commit and picked off his scoring. With a little Farsight and Troop Crisis DS I was able to clear the back objective for a late game W. A win it may have been, but it was in no part due to the Riptides.
God, I've seen two of them drop like flies to DE. Khorne Rush obliterated them. Eldar Beastpacks... FMCs.... man so many ways they "didn't get their points back" in 6th Ed, and that was when they were better!
And don't get me started on suicidal Riptides.... the Nova Reactor can easily make Riptides easy to kill or make it too risky to use mid to late game. You can't assume a successful Nova Reactor.
People have to remember to factor in the cost of Tau Supporting units into the cost of that Riptide.
With the change to 7th, I strongly doubt we will be seeing Riptide Spam or Tau in general doing well in tournaments. They are going to drop to the just north of the middle the pack spot. The Devilfish is going to be quite a bit better this edition and with Objective Secured is the only Tau Troop capable of surviving. The era of Riptides everywhere is over, people just haven't played enough 7th yet to understand that yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deuce11 wrote: it needs to be 200+ points so definitely under-costed
For the Ion Accelerator Riptide I agree, but a 200+ base Riptide with an HBC would be overcosted....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 20:24:09
Well I don't think that fighting a riptide would be so bad for certain counters, and in certain point matches. But for me, I like to play 500-1000 point games, I only have my 1500 force for close friends.
in a 1000 point game if someone fielded 2 of those against my crons I can guarantee I couldn't kill them without 2-3 horseshoes shoved into the nether regions.
I guess thats sort of the competitive side of it though, in a normal small point game you just shouldn't be a dick and field these knowing your enemy has no viable counters at that point level.
I don't think I would of done it if my buddy didn't tell me too. Yes, it was funny, but WAY to cheesy. I think tau need a few more nerfs accross the table, or just the other armies need a few buffs to meet the tau tier levels (except for sisters of battle, they can stay where they are)
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4000+ Points
Tau: 1500ish
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
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