(In short, order your F.A.T. Mats to save on shipping and pick them up at NOVA ... and check out a couple of radical limited NOVA Open mats for X-Wing and MTG).
For the Malifaux Narrative Update: We've almost finalized the primer. We've updated the last two rounds, as three rounds of assassinate in a row is two rounds too many, as evidenced by play-testing. Assassinate has been replaced by Bodygaurd in round 4, and Protect Territory (which is much more fun in close deployment than it seems).
We've also added background stories, added scenarios, and included rules for the Fame/Infamy tracks to the Quarantine Quarrel and Capital Carnage narrative events. Nicholas Cage may or may not be referenced in those events. They will be awesome, and the biggest villains and best heroes will become part of the Nova Malifaux Narrative for next year, and possibly years to come.
That primer will be going live soon.
Due to popular demand, we've also added a formal Henchman Hardcore event in addition to our Critical Mass Hardcore events.
Registration for this event is currently live. Please register before space fills up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if you want to talk shop about all the new stuff that Wyrd just put out (or has in development) Justin, Mason, and Aaron are all going to be at Nova. They're all super approachable, and I think only Mason bites. But he's had his shots.
Things you might want to talk about might include this bomb dropped at Gencon.
We're excited to be joined by Fantasy Flight games reps, including X-Wing designers. Part of what enticed them was something we built just to make this year's 100+ attendees (already!) X-Wing events even cooler. Goofy con organizer types for scale purposes only and not included in playing events.
In case anyone was curious, the seeding was done by having Reece, Neil, and myself rank all 32 independently. We then averaged each ranking, yielding the results. We leveraged tournament results, ITC standings, Torrent of Fire statistics, and historical matchups between some of the close calls to varying degrees, plus our own experience and opinion a la any type of bracketing poll of this sort.
The second one is an old link, the file for which is still in our WP, and probably on a dated page that you can access somehow. The July 31 update is more accurate.
MVBrandt wrote: The second one is an old link, the file for which is still in our WP, and probably on a dated page that you can access somehow. The July 31 update is more accurate.
There are no SH/Garg of any kind in the 40KGT.
Is there a fortification limit or can you bring ad many as you have slots? Ie double cad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's no restriction on taking more than 1, but there are of course restrictions on which ones you can take, per the FAQ
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cool updates and such ...
We're VERY, very excited to be joined this year by lead designers, reps, and more from numerous parent companies of the games we're hosting, including:
Malifaux
Warmachine/Hordes
X-Wing
Dropzone Commander
Wrath of Kings
Dark Age
Infinity
Many of these folks have also been kind enough to volunteer their time for free industry chats and personal time with fans in the Charity Lounge, and will be around the con throughout the weekend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's no restriction on taking more than 1, but there are of course restrictions on which ones you can take, per the FAQ
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cool updates and such ...
We're VERY, very excited to be joined this year by lead designers, reps, and more from numerous parent companies of the games we're hosting, including:
Malifaux
Warmachine/Hordes
X-Wing
Dropzone Commander
Wrath of Kings
Dark Age
Infinity
Many of these folks have also been kind enough to volunteer their time for free industry chats and personal time with fans in the Charity Lounge, and will be around the con throughout the weekend.
Seminar #17, OSL & Effects, only has 1 spot left (of 20)
Seminar #30, Painting Faces, only has 1 spot left (of 20)
Several other seminars are down to two or three spots left
Unlike previous years, it will be very hard to "walk in" to any seminar you want ... 92 people presently are registered for just seminars and nothing else, and the # who are doing other things AND seminars is much higher.
Blood Bowl - the Saturday SlaughterDay! event only has a couple of spots left
The 3 Infinity ITS events are basically sold out ...
Friday ITS - 1 spot left
Saturday ITS - 3 spots left
Sunday ITS - 3 spots left
Wyrd's first ever National Championship, head judged by the guy who designed the game, Wyrd's Justin Gibbs, has 1 spot left.
The Capital Carnage Story Encounter sold out, but we opened a few more spots.
Most of the other Malifaux events are sold out or nearly sold out
Warmachine went gangbusters this year, and PP is sending folks to join us! There are over 100 WM players registered. Hardcore, Steamroller 2015, and Tierany are nearly sold out. The team event sold out, but we were able to one-time up the slots ... and there are only 11 team spots left.
X-Wing is sold out in every event except the Championships. The Championships sold out, so we upped them to 96, but now we're out of room. X-Wing also features one of the coolest showpiece items we've ever built:
The Lord of the Rings GT is ... running out of room. 32 are already registered for the GT, with attendees from England, Quebec, and across the US. Yup, LOTR. Terrain and display features that have been seen in WD and elsewhere by Wright Wargame Terrain will dominate the center of the LOTR gaming area ... should be a real treat!
Last year's NOVA saw around 860 people attend, including what we call "daywalkers" who just show up not pre-registered and snag passes or seminars and the like on site.
As of today, there are MORE than that # registered for NOVA. It's already our biggest year yet ... don't miss out!
For those who aren't straight tourney gamers or seminar takers or speed painting competitors or vendor deal shoppers ... we also have a board game room this year, where you can play any of over 150 board games (Thanks to Atlantis Comics and Games!), including checking them out (ID swap) and going wherever you feel most comfy playing them, or picking up games with friends or strangers in the board game room itself! This'll be active all con long.
We welcome all experience levels - even if you have never touched Fantasy before please feel free to swing on by and participate in a demo! You are also more than welcome to walk up, sign up, and participate in either Friday's or Saturday's events (or even both! )
Mike may have forgotten about us ( ), but that doesn't mean you should!
OH YEA...the sweet sound of your business owner asking you how many days you are taking off for "your gaming event thingy"...lol...then..."when do you leave"..."when are you coming back"..."will you be available while you are there"...I always giggle a little inside...That means the NOVA is just about upon us......
Everyone have safe travels...What ya playing?...What armies are you bringing?...What is your beverage of choice?...sound off!!
ME:
Chaos Daemon flying circus for the 40k open tourney
Necrons with monoliths for the40k Narrative
??? for Highlander on sunday after the open tourney eats my low model count army alive
Beer for breakfast, lunch, and dinner...and for dessert...maybe Knob Creek for the narrative...........mmmmm......
Who else is coming out with you widow? We'll have to get a drink at some point of course! Maybe I'll just creep your narrative games ;p
I'm bringing centstar or bikes or battle company or demons or Eldar. I wish sometimes I could make up my mind before just grabbing something and going.
Mike Will the ability to purchase raffle tickets end up on the NOVA site? I had to change my "airbrush a tank" event which left me $30 on my account that I would like to apply to raffle tickets if I could. I would hate to lose my $30 hehe.
Can't speak for Mike, but pretty sure you can't - they're separate companies/entities. I had to cancel a FAT Mat order, so have a good bit of credit myself. I'm sure I'll find something to buy, haha.
Evan is correct. Nova open llc has separate leadership, funds, everything from the charitable foundation. You can use your credit on things sold at the nova open store, like this year's awesome show miniature. But it would be both inappropriate and probably illegal to cross the streams.
MVBrandt wrote: Evan is correct. Nova open llc has separate leadership, funds, everything from the charitable foundation. You can use your credit on things sold at the nova open store, like this year's awesome show miniature. But it would be both inappropriate and probably illegal to cross the streams.
MVBrandt wrote: Evan is correct. Nova open llc has separate leadership, funds, everything from the charitable foundation. You can use your credit on things sold at the nova open store, like this year's awesome show miniature. But it would be both inappropriate and probably illegal to cross the streams.
I went to the store and everything is unavailable. How long will my credit stay active?
MVBrandt wrote: Evan is correct. Nova open llc has separate leadership, funds, everything from the charitable foundation. You can use your credit on things sold at the nova open store, like this year's awesome show miniature. But it would be both inappropriate and probably illegal to cross the streams.
I went to the store and everything is unavailable. How long will my credit stay active?
What do you mean by everything is unavailable? You'll be able to use it at nova or next year.
MVBrandt wrote: Evan is correct. Nova open llc has separate leadership, funds, everything from the charitable foundation. You can use your credit on things sold at the nova open store, like this year's awesome show miniature. But it would be both inappropriate and probably illegal to cross the streams.
I went to the store and everything is unavailable. How long will my credit stay active?
What do you mean by everything is unavailable? You'll be able to use it at nova or next year.
Everything is marked "unavailable". It's probably confusion because I'm guessing the store is set it to mark it as that because the online ordering phase is done, but the store itself will have stock for him to spend on.
The purchase pull down shows unavailable for everything. I figured it showed that due to time frame of the event. The model has always shown unavailable and is my first choice of purchase. Whomever did that model did a great job! I wanted to paint it for next years pallet contest. As of last night everything in the store shows unavailable on my screen but if I can use my credit for purchases on site I am good with that.
Well, the FLG mats are no longer for sale (can't get them on site, can only pre-order). Same for the rest of the Virtue minis / beer mugs / etc. You could still use your credit on events / seminars / etc.
You'll want to be ready to buy the Virtue minis fast - there are only about 40 or so left for sale on site.
Thanks Mike. I should get there early on Thursday afternoon (need to beat Ed to the hotel so I can short sheet his bed heheh) and will make it a point to head to the store first thing to grab that mini. I wanted a mat but the funds just did not work out this year for one.
Not sure about Keith...but I will be bringing some salsa...the last of my 11 year 100% organic garden...gotta get my new property up to snuff before new food production will begin...Ugh...next week can not get here fast enough!!!
lol just watched a ToF stream where the viewers discuss how a player blatantly misplayed, by multi-charging and breaking coherency with his thunderdome against 5 necron units in several different directions, dealing way more damage than he should have been able to.
The commentator/moderator obviously unhappy with the chat comments about the foul/loose play, began dissing the viewers and even muted one of them.
Just made my day.
[ Just for reference, under pg55 of Brb: the charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency...]
More annoyed at the direct attacks from the commentator at the viewers. Though they got their act back together and we had a great game/show/stream after.
The FAQ does say to replace : "If possible, a charging model must end its charge move in unit coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved. If it is not possible for a charging model..." for pg46, Charge Move, Moving Charging Models.
The faq basically applies to standard charge move for 1 unit to 1 unit.
However, my earlier quote of [ Just for reference, under pg55 of Brb: the charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency...] comes under pg.55 for Multiple Combats, Charge Move, and applies/references directly to the movement for a unit attempt to charge multiple units.
There were some things misplayed in the game, and it's very easy to hyper analyze every little mistake when you're watching from afar. That said, I had the assault explained to me while the players were mic'd up after the chat exploded and it seemed kosher to me. He was out of coherency only after the initial unit that allowed the string out was dead and was forced to pile in two separate directions. All legit.
Continuing to rant/troll in the chat after both two judges and me(also a judge but besides the point) explain and ask people to back down is why folks got a little time out. After the incident had passed, things returned to normal.
Im glad to hear people are enjoying the stream. Please remember that our audience is varied in age and experience, so temper you're outrage appropriately. People make mistakes. We volunteer judges will correct as we are able. Let's all just enjoy playing some toy soldiers.
Actually I was the viewer who was first censored and then ban from the chat.
Let me explain, a massive rule was broken which tilted the game in one players favor early on, it fell under the coherency of said unit in combat, something Deshkar already pointed out in this thread. Several viewers from the chat stream simply pointed out the error and agreed that his opponent should have picked up on it and that it was a shame there wasn't active judging in the top16 games. Nobody accused the wolfstar player of cheating, and everyone was in consensus that what had happened happened. The chat just wanted the error to be recognized and pointed out before the player moved onto any further games.
The commentator then tried to argue that both players had the rules right, and even suggested that they would not have made it that far or done so well unless they knew the rules better then the chat. Instead of acknowledging that mistakes happen and moving on he decided to start flaming the chat by saying we were calling the guy a cheater, something that didn't happen.
I said multiple times that the rules mistake was something that always happened and "is what it is" but that an error should be noted so it doesn't continue. The commentator started accusing us of calling him a cheater so I told him he was off base and that calling out an error is not the same thing as accusing someone of cheating.
He then started to make fun of the chat with the players and even suggested we were all trolls and didn't know what we were talking about. I pointed out the inappropriate nature of making fun of your viewers especially when they should be growing our dwindling community.
I was censored and then ban for 10 minutes from the chat, several others were pissed and left before I disconnected.
I wasn't really offended and I am still not.But the commentators were the ones that got carried away and started accusing people of trolling unjustly IMHO.
It's a live stream, nobody expects games to be mistake free and when they are pointed and discussed the commentators shouldn't insult the fething chat members.
Lots of people were calling him a cheater. The term "mugging" was even thrown around. So let's get a few facts straight. Further, I did not say everyone was a troll or make fun of anyone. I said that one specific person was.
Lastly, if you don't like stream and are clearly still offended, let's talk about it in private instead of mucking up Mikes thread with this nonsense.
chipstar1 wrote: Lots of people were calling him a cheater. The term "mugging" was even thrown around. So let's get a few facts straight. Further, I did not say everyone was a troll or make fun of anyone. I said that one specific person was.
Lastly, if you don't like stream and are clearly still offended, let's talk about it in private instead of mucking up Mikes thread with this nonsense.
#blamechip2015
You need to cool your jets. I even stated I wasn't offended and I NEVER called any player a cheater or said anyone was mugged yet I was censored and mute by administrators, so I left because I didn't want to be apart of a process so capricious. Anything that occurred after that I wasn't privy to. Further, I never said you were the one running their mouth, it was a gentleman with a heavy accent that was flaming the chat, that is a fact, apologies for not knowing his name but he very much did in fact slam the chat. Valid points made by many in a civil manor up until that point.
Any administrative action you may have needed to take after I am not aware of, and very well may have been just. I only made my point on here because others decided to bring the topic up.
Any further discussion in here will be up to you as I am not going to private as long as you continue to address me personally and lump me in with any misconduct. Again, not offended in the slightest, I just refuse to be misrepresented here on dakka where you lack the authority to silence me.
A bunch of the con staff just totally owned Hit Me Baby One More Time with 2 guitars, a uke, and a lot of enthusiastic attendee vocals up in the charity bar. There were more people singing along than impacted by this torrent chat. Less than one of six attendees even play 40k.
I was enjoying the stream until the commentator started acting childish and throwing around admin power like he was a kid. I tuned back in for the last game streamed only to hear again how childish he was with his tank shock comments etc.
Don't try and hide behind a wall saying the "internet" is saying this or that. 40k is quite a tight community and you're not just referencing someone you may never meet or interact with again. Be professional and unbiased if you're going to label yourself in you words a "judge as well".
The lists on stream, are they saved anywhere, its all good saying they are posted up in the chat/commentary. But looking at past broadcasts, its hard to follow
I was playing the thunderstar that had the legal or illegal pile in. 1.) that's how I believed the rule worked, as Mike played it. 2.) it was only Fenrisian wolves in that middle, they never swung, and it didn't matter. I find it amusing how riled up people got about it.
FTGTEvan wrote: I was playing the thunderstar that had the legal or illegal pile in. 1.) that's how I believed the rule worked, as Mike played it. 2.) it was only Fenrisian wolves in that middle, they never swung, and it didn't matter. I find it amusing how riled up people got about it.
Actually people were not riled up about it to nearly the degree you would get the impression of, which is the issue. The commentator was blowing it out of proportion to you and insulting the chat who were discussing the rules and tactics involved in the situation, something that is perfectly legitimate. He also continued to accuse the chat of labeling you a cheater when we weren't and in fact I was censored and ban when I told him there is a big distinction between discussing a rules mistake and calling someone a cheater and that you definitely should be given the benefit of the doubt, but that the mistake should be remedied between games so you wouldn't continue making it unknowingly.
I don't want to get into the minutia of your game and any mistake here, but I feel like you deserve a better explanation.
NOVA is awesome, that's why we tuned in, Commentators in the stream are awful, unprofessional and a horrible representation for the event however frequently joking and making inappropriate remarks about players they know during the games and talking over key parts of the game and abusing the admin status.
Did my best boys. First Nova or gt with 100 plus people. Tried to represent without the cookie cutter, no faty, no screamers, no drones. Thanks for the games and thanks to the staff. Had a blast.
Todd S.
I'm still not sure about the fate weaver tank shock issue. Probably because of fisheye camera I couldn't really tell what all was over there. It just seems like you would need a pretty massive dogpile of guys around AND behind the rhino to manage to crunch a 1 model unit. (Granted he dog'd and failed to stop the rhino, but he only did that after it was ruled that fatey would be crushed regardless.)
And from what I understand about the hnr, they would have let Aaron hnr, allowing the nearly trapped wolf guy to "leave" the 1" bubble of the unengaged enemy next to him, but the wolf guy was too fat to fit in between the next two enemy models, and thus couldn't get an inch away from the engaged unit.
Bahkara wrote: Tank shock will become a thing as SM players realize the value of it with all their free rhinos and razorbacks.
Heh, I'm ahead of the curve. I used it to wipe out a ravenwing command squad with a razorback at a GT in july.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dorksim wrote: Has Aaron's list been posted anywhere? I would like to have a look at it!
From the pic I got:
Sammael
Chap on bike
Rw command squad w/ champ and apothecary
5 scouts
5 tacticals in rhino
1 wolf guard battle leader on thunderwolf. Shield fist wulfen stone and 1 wolf
3x iron priest on thunderwolf with thunder hammer
5 blood claws in rhino with flamer
5 grey hunters in rhino with flamer
Librarius conclave of 4 libbies all on bikes.
Bahkara wrote: Tank shock will become a thing as SM players realize the value of it with all their free rhinos and razorbacks.
Heh, I'm ahead of the curve. I used it to wipe out a ravenwing command squad with a razorback at a GT in july.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dorksim wrote: Has Aaron's list been posted anywhere? I would like to have a look at it!
From the pic I got:
Sammael
Chap on bike
Rw command squad w/ champ and apothecary
5 scouts
5 tacticals in rhino
1 wolf guard battle leader on thunderwolf. Shield fist wulfen stone and 1 wolf
3x iron priest on thunderwolf with thunder hammer
5 blood claws in rhino with flamer
5 grey hunters in rhino with flamer
Librarius conclave of 4 libbies all on bikes.
Do you know what Brett "Tomb King"'s list looked like as well by any chance?
Well, take into account that there are 2 Necrons in the top bracket, and your top 10 depends on how you look at it. Ben ended 8th, I finished at 14, after dropping rounds 7 and 8. The overall rankings (which I haven't seen yet) are done, I believe by looking at just rounds 1-6.
FTGTEvan wrote: Well, take into account that there are 2 Necrons in the top bracket, and your top 10 depends on how you look at it. Ben ended 8th, I finished at 14, after dropping rounds 7 and 8. The overall rankings (which I haven't seen yet) are done, I believe by looking at just rounds 1-6.
Yup I dropped after day 2 I could have maybe fought my way into the top 10 but was too tired at that point (had 9 games in 3 days) so I dropped to 15th. I was the number 1 seed overall after round 4 with tyranids
Think we both dropped after that and didnt bother with an 8th game.
>has a chance to play Nick for 3rd place.
>they both drop.
That's a shame. I would've liked to hear about that game.
I jokingly told nick we should play Army for Army! But he wanted to drink. My loss to Tombking was great play skills and out played by Brett for a decisive victory. I think Nicks game came down to like a 50point VP difference after 5 to 5 tie, so he was burnt and i understood, we are destined to play, 2 different daemon list one day, but we both took it hard losing in the Semis and went and had drink instead. Sorry to disappoint :(
(Plus i think 4 of my games through out, I ran into Faty/Screamers/heralds on disc with grim list)
Grats again TK, well played. Best wishes with the New Born, hope for a rematch one day.
Thanks Mike and friends. Had a great time at my first NOVA. Even though I didn't do very well this time, all of my opponents were super-cool and every game was pleasant. It was great to meet many of the dakkalites who went as well as all of the great players in the entire country. It was also really cool to see a lot people whom I've never met before come up to me and say hi, people who recognized me from my reports on both dakka as well as the Frontline video reps.
Ejderhare wrote: Ahh good to hear that the Necrons are slogging on =).
Would both of you mind sharing the lists you ran? does wonders for the less experienced players like my self to study =)
I have a list post in the Army lists section, and will be doing bat reps here soon. Basically it was decurion with 4 harvests and the only upgrades were shield vanes and nebuloscopes for tomb blades. Then took an aspext host with 3x7 warp spiders, and two exarchs had TL.
First, and really only change I'd want to make to the list is to drop 1 warp spider from each squad and the twin links for a second unit of tomb blades. They're awesome.
Ejderhare wrote: Ahh good to hear that the Necrons are slogging on =).
Would both of you mind sharing the lists you ran? does wonders for the less experienced players like my self to study =)
I have a list post in the Army lists section, and will be doing bat reps here soon. Basically it was decurion with 4 harvests and the only upgrades were shield vanes and nebuloscopes for tomb blades. Then took an aspext host with 3x7 warp spiders, and two exarchs had TL.
First, and really only change I'd want to make to the list is to drop 1 warp spider from each squad and the twin links for a second unit of tomb blades. They're awesome.
Think we both dropped after that and didnt bother with an 8th game.
>has a chance to play Nick for 3rd place.
>they both drop.
That's a shame. I would've liked to hear about that game.
I jokingly told nick we should play Army for Army! But he wanted to drink. My loss to Tombking was great play skills and out played by Brett for a decisive victory. I think Nicks game came down to like a 50point VP difference after 5 to 5 tie, so he was burnt and i understood, we are destined to play, 2 different daemon list one day, but we both took it hard losing in the Semis and went and had drink instead. Sorry to disappoint :(
(Plus i think 4 of my games through out, I ran into Faty/Screamers/heralds on disc with grim list)
Grats again TK, well played. Best wishes with the New Born, hope for a rematch one day.
What do you mean Nick wanted to drink....he never stopped heh. Thursday night he and pajama pants were chasing each other around the hall, screaming and wrestling.
Mike thanks for providing us all with a great time and looking forward to next year!
I'm pretty sure Sascha, the 4th place finisher & overall winner, does not read Dakka. This is the list he was planning on taking as of just before NOVA started; I'm not sure if he changed anything.
125 Khan
95 Chaplain, Auspex
145 Iron Clad 1x Melta, Storm Bolter, free Drop Pod
145 Iron Clad 2x heavy flamers, free Drop Pod
110 5x man Tactical squad with Melta, Combi Melta, free Razorback with Assault cannons
115 5x man Tactical squad with Grav Cannon, Combi Grav, free Drop Pod
115 5x man Tactical squad with Grav Cannon, Combi Grav, free Drop Pod
95 5x man Tactical squad with Plasma, free Razorback with Assault cannons
95 5x man Tactical squad with Grav Gun, free Razorback with Assault cannons
90 5x man Tactical squad with Melta, free Razorback with Las-Twin linked Plasma
80 5x man Assault squad with 2x flamers, free Razorback with T. H. Flamer
80 5x man Assault squad with 2x flamers, free Razorback with Heavy Bolter
150 5x man Devastator Squad with 3 Lascannons, free Razorback with Assault cannons
130 5x man Devastator Squad with 5 Heavy Bolter, free Razorback with Assault cannons
10th Company Task Force
105 5x Scout Squad, Sargent with Combi Melter, Land Speeder Storm with Heavy Flamer.
115 5x Scout Squad, Sargent with Combi Melter, Land Speeder Storm With Multi Melter.
60 5x Scout Squad, 5 Sniper
1850 points
His army is gorgeous. He put a lot of effort into getting some new bits painted up for NOVA; I guess that paid off for him.
(these are from games at our shop earlier this year, not NOVA)
Nova was an amazing time. I played 11 games in total. I was exhausted by the end of it. So proud to go 4-0 and making the top bracket. That bracket was brutal. Played Aaron DA/SW/SM, played Ben Cromwell Necrond/Eldar, played Tyler DA/SW/SM, and finally played Sascha for a Gladius on Gladius mirror match.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nova List Julio Rodriguez
Gladius Strike Force
White Scars
Demi Company 1
Khan on Foot -Warlord
Tactical Squad -80pts
Meltagun, 4 Bolters
Drop Pod
Tactical Squad -80pts
Meltagun, 4 Bolters
Drop Pod
Tactical Squad -80pts
Meltagun, 4 Bolters
Drop Pod
@julio: gladius vs gladius are the best games ever. So much stuff happening. So much damage. So many decisions and tactics coming into play. It's glorious.
Thanks to all those who volunteer and organize Nova, I had a lot of fun and it was by far the best tournament I ever went to. Congratulations to Aaron for winning both he invitational and the GT. Hopefully I get to meet all those fantastic players again soon.
My List was
Army List: Sascha Edelkraut
Chapter Tacticas: White Scars
Gladius Strike Force: Demi Company + Demi Company + Support (10th Company)
Demi Company 1 (Orange)
125p- Kor'Sarro Khan (WARLORD)
(Optional Elite)
145p- Iron Clad 2x heavy flamers, free Drop Pod
(Troop/ Fast/ Heavy Support)
90p- 5x man Tactical squad with Meltagun, Combi Melta, free Drop Pod
105p- 5x man Tactical squad with Grav-Cannon, free Drop Pod
105p- 5x man Tactical squad with Plasma Cannon, free Razorback with Twin-linked Assault
cannon
100p- 5x man Assault squad with 2x flamers, free Razorback with Lascannon & Twin-linked
Plasma Gun
120p- 5x man Devastator Squad with 3x Heavy Bolter, free Razorback with Twin-linked Assault
cannon
Demi Company 2 (Grey - Orange)
95p- Chaplain, Auspex
(Optional Elite)
145p- Iron Clad 2x heavy flamers, free Drop Pod
125p- 5x man Tactical squad with Grav-Cannon, free Razorback with Twin-linked Assault cannon
105p- 5x man Tactical squad with Plasmagun, free Razorback with Lascannon &Twin-linked
Plasma Gun
90p- 5x man Tactical squad with Meltagun, Combi Melta, Drop Pod
80p- 5x man Assault squad with 2x flamers, free Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
160p- 5x man Devastator Squad with 2 Grav-Cannons, free Razorback with Twin-linked Assault cannon
10th Company Task Force
105p- 5x Scout Squad (Close Combat Weapons), Sargent with Combi Melter, Land Speeder Storm with Heavy Flamer.
115p- 5x Scout Squad (Boltguns), Sargent with Combi Melter, Land Speeder Storm With Multi Melta.
Hey I'm just gonna drop this here, I know it's a long shot. Did anyone happen to find a pair of Rayban prescription aviator sunglasses in a black polo hard case? Lost them at some point this weekend in the main hall. If anyone found them shoot me a PM, thanks.
Luckily we managed to get past the rules-fiasco from a couple pages ago relatively unscathed, but for anyone curious, I wanted to weigh in as someone who actually had an impact on what went down:
Red Corsair wrote: Several viewers from the chat stream simply pointed out the error and agreed that his opponent should have picked up on it and that it was a shame there wasn't active judging in the top16 games.
First off, a disclaimer: I'm not directly affiliated with NOVA in any way whatsoever. Anything I say here is my own opinion; the particulars of the event are dictated by Neil, Phil, and Mike.
Second, an introduction: I'm Justin Curtis, many of you know me from rules judging at Adepticon (and various smaller tournaments) the past few years. I attended NOVA to play in the Invitational and the GT--however, once I dropped from the GT, Neil and Phil were kind enough to let me jump onto their judging crew for the remainder of the event. In fact, as Neil often becomes busier and busier as the event goes on, they actually allowed me to have a direct hand in running the top tables, alongside Phil and Chip.
Now, the phrase "active judging" is something we see get thrown around a lot--primarily on forums or streams, and almost always after the fact. I have never, and will never, be one to advise an event toward active judging. This was something Chip and I talked about briefly during the event, and I told him a phrase I stole from Dave Creswell (who used to run the Adepticon Championships), which is that he prefers "Vampire Judging." The gist being, judges cannot go into a game without being invited.
For 90% of an event, it means exactly what it says. Judges literally should not interfere in games unless they are directly asked by one of the players involved. Now, top tables late in an event are a little different, and usually have a judge standing tableside watching the entire game. That does not mean that judge is to interfere directly in the game, but it is definitely more active than you'd have at a normal table. As a (very) brief overview, these are the sort of things I'd do on a top table that most likely wouldn't happen on a normal game (as they wouldn't have a judge standing there):
1. Any time a player asks their opponent for a rules clarification, the judge should weigh in
2. Any time a player asks for a Line of Sight verification, the judge should handle it
3. Any time a player references the rules incorrectly to their benefit, the judge should weigh in
These are primarily time-saving measures to ensure the game keeps running smoothly, and there are still a lot of gaps allowing things to be played incorrectly.
This leads into the primary belief I have in regard to judging, which is rather simple: the primary responsibility for ensuring someone does not cheat always lies with their opponent. Not the TO, not the judges. You, the guy playing. You are the only one that has an active stake in ensuring your opponent does not cheat. I've laid this policy out in much further detail in the past, with explanation as to why it must be this way, and will include it behind a spoiler box below:
Spoiler:
As a TO, the first responsibility lies with the owning player. You will see this reflected in every rules packet for every major GT. You are to have all of the rules for every unit in your entire army, and those rules are to be available to every opponent (or a judge) by request.
As a judge, the first responsibility always lies with the opposing player. It is every player's responsibility to know (or ask questions if they don't know) the rules. That will always be true, as there will never be enough judges to have one standing at each table making sure the game is played correctly. The fact is, you are the only one with an actual stake in making sure your opponent does not cheat, and are therefore the only one qualified to make sure that it doesn't happen. If you come to me after a game and tell me that Bobby convinced you Tactical Marines can move 30" and they all have Meltaguns, that's not my fault, and it's not Bobby's fault--it's your fault for believing him. That is the truth of how judging a large event works--you cannot go back and change outcomes after the game has progressed beyond them (outside of literal, physical cheating--such as cheat dice or something similar) because doing so would up a whole Pandora's Box of other problems.
As a player, I play with that exact mindset, but that's likely because I'm also a judge. If I let my opponent play a rule wrong and it costs me the game, I don't end up mad at him, I end up mad at myself for letting him get away with it. But again, the overwhelming majority (which can be learned by standing around a hallway during a GT and listening to people complain about how they got cheated) would likely have the opposite opinion.
Now an important distinction has to be made--saying it is your responsibility to "know the rules" does not mean you are expected to memorize every rule in all of 40k. That has obviously long-since gone completely out the window, with the huge scope of rules that currently exist. As a judge I can tell you even the top-tier competitive players never know "all of the rules" (or anywhere close to that) even going back to the comparatively tame days of 5th. It is probably more accurate to say it is your responsibility to ensure the game is played correctly. That consists of three concepts, in descending order:
1). Try to know the rules
2). If you don't know the rules, ask your opponent to show you the rules
3). If you aren't satisfied, ask a judge
If you get cheated without performing all three of these steps, then it is your fault. You can try to blame whoever you want, but the resources were available to you to avoid it, and you did not make use of them. Again--these are unchangeable facts, until you find yourself a tournament that can assign a top-level judge (of which I know about four or five in the whole country) to every single table.
So the question is, where is there an opportunity for change to occur?
And I can tell you pretty easily: change needs to happen at the level of the player.
Currently, players are practically terrified of asking their opponent to see rules. It's like some weird combination of admitting you don't know and accusing them of cheating; some people view it as both shameful and aggressive. People will gladly stand by with just a cursory "are you sure?" and then let things happen, regardless of how absurd--and trust me, as a judge, you hear all the absurd things that happened (in past tense, when people are expecting you to go back and fix it for them) because people just took someone else's word for it without checking.
That is, above all else, what really needs to change--it's also the primary flaw in the argument you seemed to be making, as you seemed to imply that every player would need to own every piece of rules documentation. No--you need to own your rules documentation, and you need to sack up and ask the guy to see his, as necessary. You cannot fathom how many problems that would solve.
Again, every tournament builds that fact into their core rules. As a TO/judge, if some guy shows up with some weird unit that was published in an Imperial Armour that came out in 1982 and his opponent asks to see the rules for it and he cannot produce them? I would gladly throw that unit out of the game immediately, and ensure he does not use it in later rounds. Showing up with a unit and expecting someone to just take your word for how it works is outright disrespectful to your opponents and would not be tolerated by any serious event.
That whole essay is more in regard to judging concepts in general, so in specific regard to what would be called "active judging," here's my general issue. For the purposes of this, we'll be using the Wolfstar multi-assault referenced earlier in the thread solely for the sake of simplicity (as it sounds like that assault actually ended up being completely legal) as a stand-in for "something illegal happening during a game."
The first issue is that there are no perfect judges. I noted in the spoiler box above that there's about four or five top-level judges in the whole country, as far as I'm concerned. And if any two of them played a game against each other, something would be done incorrectly. Likely something very small, but something nonetheless. I hold the opinion that no perfect game of 40k has ever been played, rules-wise (and I hold that as an indictment of the current state of the rules more than anything else.)
So, let's assume the Wolfstar multi-assault happens, is illegal, and plays a primary role in deciding who wins a top-table game at a major GT. The internet would be very upset. We'd have threads about it. But you know who wouldn't be upset, at least not in the same context? The player who lost because of it. I have never had a serious, competitive GT-level player come up to me as a judge and blame me for not reminding him how to play the game, and I've absolutely seen people lose games because they misplayed one of their own rules or their opponents misplayed one against them. They understand that the primary onus of correcting these things lies with them.
Now let's take a flipside look at a potential "active judging" circumstance. Let's say the Wolfstar multi-assault is illegal, and is immediately stopped by a judge standing tableside, with no request by the opposing player to do so.
Next turn, the opposing player (Necrons, in this case) makes an illegal move. For whatever reason, it is not recognized--by the opposing player or the judges. Maybe the judge didn't catch it (re:there are no perfect judges) or the judge had to step away for a moment (this happens literally all the time). But nonetheless, the Necron player is allowed to execute his illegal move.
Who is mad now? Literally everyone. The internet. The guy who lost. Other players. "Why'd you tell me I couldn't do X, but then you didn't stop him from doing Y?" You have, as a deliberate decision, shifted the primary responsibility for playing the game correctly from your players to your staff (who, as a quick reminder, are all volunteers). This is a nightmare scenario for an event, as there are only negative outcomes that can result from it, and they all serve to make your event look bad. Words like "bias" start getting thrown around. Nothing good comes of it.
There's a thousand other problems with active judging (disrupting the flow of play, making the game run even slower, the ultimate apocalyptic scenario wherein a judge stops a game without being asked and then provides the wrong ruling, etc) but the situation outlined above is why it should be avoided from an organizational standpoint, above all else.
Most likely not--the round when he was at the top (Round 6), it was Sascha vs. Nick on the stream. Aaron and Horton (the Daemonkin player) were on Table 2.
DJ3, that above is one of the best write ups I've seen on judging and judging styles. You should put together a judging handbook at some point for new fledging judges/TOs to reference.
Playing him round 5, I think his list was. 5 farseers, big 8 man council. Baharroth. 1 or 2 units of spiders (6 man), then bikes and bikes and more bikes.
I actually had the pleasure of watching Justin Judge a few of the games at the top tables and I can say he is not only spot on with his comments he is also one of the best judges ive seen watch over a game.
At the Top tables in GTs its generally understood that the players have a high knowledge of the game and there opponents army and the rules.
In many cases the Judge is simply there to maintain order of the gamers surroundings ( keeping audience comments, participation and noise at a minimum). Keep the pace of a Top game going in a timely manner. Availability for quick rules issues and lastly to observe Blatant cheating.
In the past I have seen judges all to many times stop games without being asked to make rules calls that were completely wrong.. or at the least open to scrutiny. That's a sure fire way of creating anamosity between the gamers and the organizers.
If 2 players are playing a game correctly "as they understand it".. then a judge should allow them to play on.
Even top players make mistakes especially when the pressure is on. If the judge is standing there they should do their job. FWIW I don't think the wolf star player in question did anything wrong... It was the moderator that started it.
True.... However we play a game that consists of 2 players so its really the failure of the 2 players, of the player making the mistake and his opponent observing the mistake. Is it the job of the judges to interject every time a player makes a mistake ? I don't think so. I observed a game where Nick N. was under the assumption that he was playing for a secondary goal of Line breaker and he hadn't picked that goal..
Should the judge have made him aware of that ? should he have let the audience tell him that ? I don't believe he should have... actually I believe it was the sign of good judging that let the game play go as it was.
Did it matter anyway ? no... Nick actually had accomplished his 2 secondary goals.
I think the situation needs to be looked at how it effects the game. If a player makes a 1 time mistake. and how it impacts the game going forward. Do you stop the game and interject ? Do we start allowing our judges to micromanage the game ? throwing flags for every misstep ? What do we do if we observe 2 players playing a rule wrong or a mission wrong halfway through a game ? If we correct it... who does it impact ? both players, 1 player or none ?
Im not saying a judge should never interject in a game especially if a player does something that is unobservable by there opponent. But when 2 Top players are playing. As a TO, I expect each player to be fully paying attention to there games and playing to there best understanding of the game as much as possible and relying on my judges to maintain order and last resort rules questions.
One table of players never deserves special treatment. Tournaments are not just about the face crushers at the top table. If you can't actively judge every table, you shouldn't actively judge any table. Suggesting otherwise shows weakness as a TO, Steve, IMO. Yes, that was a countertroll to the 0-logic one-line trolling you're doing to Ed. Deal.
There's a thousand other problems with active judging (disrupting the flow of play, making the game run even slower, the ultimate apocalyptic scenario wherein a judge stops a game without being asked and then provides the wrong ruling, etc) but the situation outlined above is why it should be avoided from an organizational standpoint, above all else.
That is an excellent post, and one that should be linked to any time there is a judging "controversy" going forward.
The role of a TO, and any judges they delegate to, is to efficiently run games. Active judging is the opposite of that.
We had a Justin at our table during the semi finals game, I have heard people thought I was getting frustrated with something he did or didnt do.. This is not true, I may have gotten frustrated but that was my own fault and nothing else that he or my opponent did, I apologized for it.
In the end glad he was there, to be called upon for X Y or Z.
Now lets get back to the Greatness of NOVA.
Like when Security had a run in with Brandt... something about guitar music in the lounge... hahahha
I love how NOVA made daemon players put all their warp charge dice on the table in a separate pile from any other dice. This is really the way it should be.
Back to judges they must take on some responsibility besides resolving disputes or else players are expected to rely solely on self judging ? If it obvious something major is not done right the judge should intervene.
DJ3: well put. As the Necron player I believed (and still do) that Mike was totally legal in his moves. Not to mention, they area that was questioned and deemed possibly illegal, was in my opinion both at the table and afterward, inconsequential. The big moments that mattered were Mike rolling double 1s for a charge, not choosing to hit and run bottom of 5, and my warp spiders moving 27" in the bottom of 6. Where a couple wolves were in a one sided combat did not matter.
Tsilber wrote: We had a Justin at our table during the semi finals game, I have heard people thought I was getting frustrated with something he did or didnt do.. This is not true, I may have gotten frustrated but that was my own fault and nothing else that he or my opponent did, I apologized for it.
In the end glad he was there, to be called upon for X Y or Z.
Now lets get back to the Greatness of NOVA.
Like when Security had a run in with Brandt... something about guitar music in the lounge... hahahha
zedsdead wrote: I don't think so. I observed a game where Nick N. was under the assumption that he was playing for a secondary goal of Line breaker and he hadn't picked that goal..
Should the judge have made him aware of that ? should he have let the audience tell him that ? I don't believe he should have... actually I believe it was the sign of good judging that let the game play go as it was.
Haha--that whole situation scared the hell out of me. It seemed everybody tableside knew Nick didn't have Linebreaker. Somebody pointed at his scoresheet, and I had to tell them to leave. Then somebody picked up his scoresheet and I had to physically take it away from them and move everybody back.
Luckily, we all know Nick is far too drunk when he plays to pick up on something so subtle as "why are bystanders and judges fighting over my scoresheet?" He never realized he didn't have Linebreaker until I told him when he was filling out his scores (and it didn't matter, as he'd already achieved the secondary he didn't even know he had).
That was when Chip and Phil had the good sense to assemble the WALL OF CHAIRS to prevent any further problems at Table 1.
Perhaps a subforum on Judging/Refereeing? First order of business would be to Sticky DJ3's post(s) on the topic. Subforum need not be limited to 40K.
My sense is that people get their ideas about refereeing from watching sports. That is active refereeing. One of the key differences between sport and, say, 40K, is that in sport the players ARE the game--they need to be actively monitored and corrected/penalized.
I also served as a judge for AdeptiCon this year. It was my first time. I heard the same speech (From DJ3 and, honestly, from everyone else that was an experienced judge): Be a Vampire. Be visible, be available, be observant, but do nothing unless asked to. I saw some WEIRD stuff go down on more than a few tables, but the players were playing the game as they mutually understood it, so I kept to myself and moved along.
I know the feeling of losing a game and then discovering, after the fact, that a significant (i.e. outcome influencing) rules violation occurred. I blame myself. I also know the feeling of thinking that something isn't quite right, but not pursuing that thought with my opponent--let alone a judge, losing the game, and finding out later that I was right to think something was wrong. Again, I blame myself.
+Unsolicited Advice Below+
Things to do before going to a tournament: Understand (and accept) that the 40K rules-set is Permissive Study the rules, don't just read them (but at LEAST read them--don't assume things work like they did 2 editions ago...) Study rules controversies (YMDC, for example) and whether or not/how Tournament FaQs (and GWFaQs too, such as they are) address those controversies Understand the difference between HIWPI ('How I would play it'), 'How we play it where I come from' and the way it's played according to a Tournament FaQ ('For ease of play...') Practice consistently implementing the rules in game conditions
Things to do AT a tournament: Bring the BRB and relevant FaQs Ask your opponent questions, politely, about the 'special' things his army/units/models can do (USRs and Snowflake Rules that allow a unit to 'break' basic rules [see: Battle Focus]) If a BRB issue arises, look it up in the BRB and try and resolve it before calling a judge--a good judge's first question is, "Did you look in the rule book?" Don't assume your opponent is more familiar with how rules apply to complex situations than you are; if you don't understand, ask a judge to confirm, "Is this how this works?"
I normally view the judge's effectiveness on how well his tee shirt is tucked into his cargo shorts and how tightly clasped his hands are behind his back.
Anyone play against Todd Silber's Daemon list that came in 12th? I love Seekers, and seeing a big unit of them with Grimoire and Be'lakor for Invis makes me pretty happy.
DCannon4Life wrote: Study rules controversies (YMDC, for example) and whether or not/how Tournament FaQs (and GWFaQs too, such as they are) address those controversies
It's important to emphasize his choice of wording here--study rules controversies at places like YMDC; rather than necessarily putting too much weight on their "conclusions," the best thing to do is use places like YMDC to make yourself aware of the problems. This is not really a sleight against YMDC, and moreso a safety net for players, because the conclusions YMDC comes to are not always likely to be the ones a floor judge comes to.
When friends call me to ask for "rulings" on armies they are testing, I tend to give them three answers: what I would rule as a judge, how most people play it, and what the rules technically say. If there's much conflict between these three answers, I usually tell them outright not to play that army, because there's no way to predict what will happen on the floor at a tournament and you don't want your army invalidated by a ruling.
Places like YMDC are only concerned with the third option, and that limits their usefulness in a way. They also have an enormous blindspot for precedent and ripple-effect; you can argue X is technically Y all day, but if X=Y breaks A, B, C, and D by precedent, you probably can't actually make that ruling on the floor. As a judge I refer to it as the Jerk Effect (though I generally replace Jerk with whatever colorful expletive comes to mind at the moment), and the best way to explain it is this: for every ruling you make, imagine you gave a Jerk a stack of Codexes and Rulebooks and a week of research time to use that ruling against you in some way. Even if, at the time, the specific ruling you make is saving Timmy the Baby Seal from Jerry the WAAC Monster, rulings are supposed to stand as precedent and they will spread amongst an event. The other 100-200 highly knowledgable players who really want to win your tournament at the hypothetical Jerk and his stack of rulebooks. No matter how smart you are, you're not smarter than 200 people combined, and somebody will find that loophole if you aren't careful.
That is one of the primary things a good (in my opinion) judging crew should focus on--maintaining precedent across tables. One of the worst things to hear is "well a judge told me it worked this way, but another judge told him it worked the other way" because then you can end up with two players playing the same rule with the expectation of it working two different ways, and no way to resolve the issue fairly if it comes up when they're playing each other (and had each been playing with their version in mind).
There were times when I'd walk over to Phil and Neil just to ask if they'd already made a ruling on something--if they had, even if it wasn't a ruling I agree with, that's the end of the discussion. You stick with the version you set because that's far more important, for the event, than us having a YMDC-style debate and making sure the minute details are all technically correct. Adepticon is identical--if you see a small group of judges hanging out, we're probably asking Chris or John if we already have set precedent for something.
Requizen wrote: Anyone play against Todd Silber's Daemon list that came in 12th? I love Seekers, and seeing a big unit of them with Grimoire and Be'lakor for Invis makes me pretty happy.
He roomed with me and explained some of the tech. He's also been commenting pretty regularly here, so I'm sure he'd be happy to chat out his list, even if he wanted to stay under the radar.
DCannon4Life wrote: Perhaps a subforum on Judging/Refereeing? First order of business would be to Sticky DJ3's post(s) on the topic. Subforum need not be limited to 40K.
That kind of discussion definitely belongs in this section (Tournament Discussions) and while most threads here are 40k related, the section is open to discussion of any tournament topic for any game system.
Regarding DJ3's (excellent) post about judging, I would make this one caveat - telling an inexperienced player they should ask their opponent to see rules can slow a game down to a crawl. Early on, I unfortunately gave an opponent a rather bad game at a GT because I read that advice on Dakka right before attending . Was he wrong on some of his rules? Yes, absolutely... but I've found that with my knowledge of the game, it's so much faster to check with another player (or ideally a judge if they're nearby) rather than to try and go through rules line by line on the spot. There just isn't time, and newer players doing so will result in a game that isn't fun - and while they avoid getting cheated, they lose the plot in the process.
Just something I learned along the way (and as a plug for the AdeptiCon team tourney, if no one on your team knows a rule, you can try to grab a judge, but usually somebody knows and can keep the game flowing well enough without everybody breaking out their books!).
RiTides wrote: [Regarding DJ3's (excellent) post about judging, I would make this one caveat - telling an inexperienced player they should ask their opponent to see rules can slow a game down to a crawl.
That's likely more of a player-etiquette issue than a judging one, to be honest.
It's a harsh truth, but if you don't know the rules (of the primary competitive armies, at minimum) well enough to complete a game on time due to needing rules explained, you really have no business attending a major GT, because it can be outright disrespectful to your opponent. No offense intended to you RiTides (you even noted that you think you gave the guy a bad game because of it), and I like that you mentioned even referencing "common" rules with nearby players--as long as you aren't disrupting their game, they'll usually be happy to give you a yes/no/maybe, and if they seem reluctant at all that might give you a clue to call for a judge or ask your opponent for more details on the rule.
From a judging standpoint, a game like that would be interpreted as a slow play issue--the problem being that while it's absolutely possible that you don't know the rules, it's equally likely (from our perspective) that you're just trying to slow down the game. As you mentioned, this is a somewhat common issue, and would be resolved by having a judge posted at the table to resolve all trivial rules questions immediately and without any need to reference the books. In extreme cases, if it becomes obvious the game is not likely to reach Turn 5, my preferred stance is to clock the faster player's turn and then hold the slower player to completing their next turn in the same time period (without informing either player beforehand--you don't want the "faster" player rushing his turn just to try to deprive the other player of clock) and after the completion of that turn, split up the remaining time equally among them.
The guys at NOVA were great about this--at one point I went to Table 1 (while I was running the Brett/Todd game on Table 2) and Chip had a chart of all their turn times. I'm pretty sure I just gave him a thumbs up and walked away.
It's also worth noting that there's lots of little "player etiquette" things like this. Not having excessively confusing counts-as or conversions is a big one, and is why tournaments tend to be so strict with their model policies. It's also a big part of why Forge World hasn't seen wider acceptance (I've always shouted this at people: Forge World is not banned for balance reasons.) because throwing an extra 15+ books of new, obscure rules has a dramatic effect on the "can you tell me what that unit does?" problem in games. This is why 0-1 allowances are working really well, because it doesn't slow down a game much when you've only got to explain one weird unit to your opponent.
Another example is, I play Daemons, and I have really big (postcard-sized) Psychic Power cards for each of my Psykers that I mark off with dry erase markers. People always say "oooh, I bet that helps you keep track of your powers!" No, I could write my powers down in a notebook and then burn it for all I care--I'm going to remember. Those cards are for my opponent, because in my opinion, it would be disrespectful to make them have to guess what my powers are. The only way they're "for me" is in the sense that my opponent won't have to slow the game down by asking me what my powers are constantly.
I see your point about inexperienced players, but we were all noobs once, and even the most experienced store tournament player might encounter combinations and rules interactions they're not used to encountering in a larger tourney.
They have to gain that experience somewhere, and unfortunately, it's going to likely be at some more experienced player's expense.
DCannon4Life wrote: Study rules controversies (YMDC, for example) and whether or not/how Tournament FaQs (and GWFaQs too, such as they are) address those controversies
It's important to emphasize his choice of wording here--study rules controversies at places like YMDC; rather than necessarily putting too much weight on their "conclusions," the best thing to do is use places like YMDC to make yourself aware of the problems.
Valhallan42nd wrote: I see your point about inexperienced players, but we were all noobs once, and even the most experienced store tournament player might encounter combinations and rules interactions they're not used to encountering in a larger tourney.
They have to gain that experience somewhere, and unfortunately, it's going to likely be at some more experienced player's expense.
To a degree, but we're definitely not talking about "how does a 2+ rerollable work?" here--that's a two minute explanation and won't have any real impact on a game. One of my opponents at NOVA this year actually told me he hadn't played against Daemons in over 8 months and I pretty much walked him through everything in my entire army while deploying, explained various psychic powers and interactions, and provided special rule information and statlines as we went. At no point did it feel like we were going to have a clock problem--so we'd actually have to go past even "I admittedly have no idea how your army works, please tell me literally all the things" for it to get to the point of being a disturbance in most cases.
If you require constant, basic rules explanations to the point of having a heavy impact on the game clock, that's far beyond being unfamiliar with the top-end competitive landscape.
To be honest, in the very few cases I've seen something like this occur, it's less of a situation of asking about rules--that's a rather quick process--and more of a situation of being unaccepting (or outright combatative) with the answers received. It's one thing to go "how does the Warp Spider jump work?" and have your opponent tell you. It's another if you then add on "what? let me see the codex." The point it really becomes a problem is "that's dumb, let me comb through the rulebook for five minutes to see if there's some hidden phrase that disallows the thing I'm already looking at."
I agree, and I only mentioned it because early on in my going to GTs I saw that advice, and I think it's a little bit of a trap for a new player (and there are a lot at GTs!). If you know what you're doing, you can check out the wording of a rule, but to finish a game on time many players will need to just take their opponents word for it or have a judge or other player confirm it.
I haven't had that issue in a long time because I decided I'm there to have fun, and if there's a issue, I just quickly ask someone and we move on!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems to me that most of the times a player would want to see the wording of a rule is because their opponent might have something off about it, right? That is definitely a player etiquette thing, but I've just found it is worlds faster to get judge input (or other players if able) and get on with the game
Just some practical tips from someone who took that advice the wrong way once upon a time! Since switching to the above approach, I'd like to think I haven't had a bad (at least from my end ) game at a GT.
1. Any time a player asks their opponent for a rules clarification, the judge should weigh in
2. Any time a player asks for a Line of Sight verification, the judge should handle it
3. Any time a player references the rules incorrectly to their benefit, the judge should weigh in
1. Any time a player asks their opponent for a rules clarification, the judge should weigh in
2. Any time a player asks for a Line of Sight verification, the judge should handle it
3. Any time a player references the rules incorrectly to their benefit, the judge should weigh in
Isn't number 3 the definition of active judging?
Not really, in my experience active judging is: hey, you guys moved the charging models wrong, here's what you should be doing (or some other similar intervention)
#3 is "No relentless totally confers to the unit" or "Yeah I can fire rapid fire weapons and charge"
But agree its kind of a grey zone as what is active judging and what falls under #3
I'm with you Darkness. I don't really see the difference either. There are TONS of cases where someone flubs a rule that is in their favor that later ends up losing them the game. I did it at NOVA!
To DJ3's point, a judge should never start an interaction. it should always be the players starting the interaction. I think all of those rules are understood to be happening after the judge has already been called to the table. At least that's how I read it.
This is getting comical, with all the awesomeness of NOVA, we are harping on do's and dont's as judges. Judges are appointed Judges for reasons, they did great. If players had a problem with a call they could get second opinion from a different Judge. Parties were allowed to litigate their argument on a ruling, it wasnt "hey Judge, X is what is happening.", Judge answers, "Y is the ruling", it didn't happen.
Grats to winners, Awesome looking armies, Great event Mike, thanks to those who donated their time. Thanks to the Judges. And better luck next year or the next tourney to those who did not find desired results.
Tsilber wrote: This is getting comical, with all the awesomeness of NOVA, we are harping on do's and dont's as judges. Judges are appointed Judges for reasons, they did great. If players had a problem with a call they could get second opinion from a different Judge. Parties were allowed to litigate their argument on a ruling, it wasnt "hey Judge, X is what is happening.", Judge answers, "Y is the ruling", it didn't happen.
Grats to winners, Awesome looking armies, Great event Mike, thanks to those who donated their time. Thanks to the Judges. And better luck next year or the next tourney to those who did not find desired results.
DarknessEternal wrote: The actual judge of the event presented what appears to be a paradoxical argument. That bears discussion.
Justin was A judge pulled in to help out later on during the GT, not THE judge. I think he did a great job, as well, and while I understand the desire to delve into apparent paradoxes ... just wanted to set the record straight on who was what kind of judge.
I thought his posts were excellent, not "ramblings"! The judging discussion was really interesting to me, and while it could use it's own thread, the posts were really thoughtful and thought-provoking... to be honest, unlike the last few
I think it's important for players to think about and know how judges plan to interact with them - a lot of folks here seem to prefer non-intervention unless asked, which I am totally fine with. But when I first started attending GTs that idea would have again caught me off-guard, so it is good to discuss it!
Next year I'm totally breaking my unable-to-really-attend-Nova streak (although I've stopped by a few times, never really gotten to stay long or play). Hopefully with a vendor booth
There were countless numbers of great things that happened at NOVA this year. I am really hoping we can start to concentrate on those rather than some sub aspect that was tiny and is tending to lead off topic Mike as usual you ran an excellent event and as usual I am looking forward to next year. The guy that I played on Sunday morning with bugs (bugs on bugs heh) was probably one of the funniest games I ever played. There were more beautiful looking armies in the GT than I think I have seen at any other event including NOVA. The quality of entries at the Capital Pallet have increased exponentially over the last three years and it is great just to walk through the displays in awe. I had a blast and I appreciate all the time you guys put into the event
Fishboy wrote: There were countless numbers of great things that happened at NOVA this year. I am really hoping we can start to concentrate on those rather than some sub aspect that was tiny and is tending to lead off topic Mike as usual you ran an excellent event and as usual I am looking forward to next year. The guy that I played on Sunday morning with bugs (bugs on bugs heh) was probably one of the funniest games I ever played. There were more beautiful looking armies in the GT than I think I have seen at any other event including NOVA. The quality of entries at the Capital Pallet have increased exponentially over the last three years and it is great just to walk through the displays in awe. I had a blast and I appreciate all the time you guys put into the event
Just a touch outside of the current discussion, but where do normal players in DC play? I was just there last week and could not find a store I would consider a players store.
Crystal City was an awesome location for sure. Hope to be there next year.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Just a touch outside of the current discussion, but where do normal players in DC play? I was just there last week and could not find a store I would consider a players store.
Crystal City was an awesome location for sure. Hope to be there next year.
A lot of us host gaming at our homes. I do in Springfield.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Just a touch outside of the current discussion, but where do normal players in DC play? I was just there last week and could not find a store I would consider a players store.
Crystal City was an awesome location for sure. Hope to be there next year.
Unsure about inside DC, several stores in the surrounding areas. There are monthly RTTs as Huzzah Hobbies in Ashburn, as well as Friday 40k nights
Victory comics is trying to get some events started.
Gaming store in Gaithersburg MD just opened up, and also has a few tables.
Target wrote:
Uriels_Flame wrote: Just a touch outside of the current discussion, but where do normal players in DC play? I was just there last week and could not find a store I would consider a players store.
Crystal City was an awesome location for sure. Hope to be there next year.
Unsure about inside DC, several stores in the surrounding areas. There are monthly RTTs as Huzzah Hobbies in Ashburn, as well as Friday 40k nights
Looks like my work is done!
But seriously, I'm unaware of any DC stores. But I know of a few VA places that do.
FlashBack in Woodbridge has the IFL gaming club I think going on on Tuesdays/Thursdays. Their forum: http://ironfistleague.org/forums/
Game Vault in Fredericksburg is starting to have monthly RTTs, I'm unsure if there is any 40k open play going on. Their forum: http://forums.thegamevault.net/
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