Christoph - I addressed it

The rule for described... does not care about conditions. it only cares if there is some description involving "JumP" - which there is

It could be they are only jump on a blood moon sunday, and they would STILL get to deep strike

I tis not "are always described as being able to move as Jump" or some other rule which WOULD care about the conditional, it is simply a blanket allowance to read the description.

I rarely agree with col_impact, but on this I believe you are incorrect.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

They are relevant because of what we're talking about. Do you still just ignore conditions now?

You are saying, "yes", when we have no permission to do so before the model deploys.

I pay attention to conditionals when the rules make them relevant.

If a rule is written such that conditionals on a description are not relevant, you cannot change the way the rule is written so that the conditionals are relevant. If you do that you are going against RAW.

Spoiler:

Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In BOTH A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Therefore this rule is satisfied.

"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

So, where does it say that a "described as" statement allows you to ignore an "if" statement before the description?

Is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" a conditional statement or not? Is "When a Flying Monstrous Creature" a conditional statement or not? Where are these conditions properly marginalized through another condition?

You have yet to properly answer these questions at all. "Described" is a verb and must pay attention to conditions placed on it as much as any other verb. When I quoted the definition of "described" it did not provide any exclusion of conditions, nor have you provided any such evidence.

Your epic failure to address these issues properly has reached nauseating proportions.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

I understand your argument. Repeating it in the exact same way for 10 pages does not make it any clearer or any more correct.

The word If makes both the jump rule conditional and the FMC states conditional. "If a unit is described as moving like a jump blah blah" is a temporal statement. As was stated there is a marine unit in one of the codex's that can purchase jump packs. The jump pack makes the unit move, run, etc like a jump infantry. Excellent. A permanent bonus that takes effect on the unit at the point of purchase. THAT unit can deep strike. THAT unit is ALWAYS moving like a jump. The FMC is not. And I get that you are not taking the word if to imply a temporal state. That "If" must always be true for the benefit to always be true. I get it. I understand that is your argument. But that is not how English works. When If is there it requires the condition to be true at all times.

It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.

Does this statement describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature, yes or no?

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Considering it is a conditional statement, the answer is not a simple boolean answer, but relies on an expanding answer.

Does this statement describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature, yes or no, "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."?

The answer is, "A FMC is described as moving like a JMC if/when it is Gliding".

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.

What rule are you quoting here? This is the rule in the BRB.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

No "if" in there. The rule has been quoted numerous times and you are still imagining words in the rule that are not there.

As stated before, if you do not adhere to the language and logic of the rule your argument is invalid.

You are correct, the "if" is not there, but the FMC rules have plenty enough "if"s to apply when it comes to being described as moving like a JMC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Christoph - I addressed it

The rule for described... does not care about conditions. it only cares if there is some description involving "JumP" - which there is

It could be they are only jump on a blood moon sunday, and they would STILL get to deep strike

I tis not "are always described as being able to move as Jump" or some other rule which WOULD care about the conditional, it is simply a blanket allowance to read the description.

I rarely agree with col_impact, but on this I believe you are incorrect.

It does not care about other conditions, true. However, the problem is that it does not care about other conditions to fight/counter/deny them when they are applied, either.

For an example of a rule that cares about conditions of rules, look at Snap Shots. In most cases a datasheet applied BS set value modifier would override the set value modifier of Snap Shots. However, Snap Shots does care about that condition, so the datasheet rule would specifically have to address Snap Shot in order to affect it.

Another is Hard To Hit. Just overriding Snap Shots doesn't matter if you are shooting at a target with this rule active. You need to have Skyfire in order to override this condition.

Now, does the Jump unit rule state that it applies itself outside of any conditions that are listed with the description or not? No one has presented a proper reference or quote to support this as fact.

Saying that an FMC is a JMC at all times is no different than saying that a unit allowed to move like a Jump unit during the Assault Phase can Jump during the Movement Phase and can start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. It deliberately ignores the conditions placed on the description of moving like a Jump unit.

Charistoph wrote:

So, where does it say that a "described as" statement allows you to ignore an "if" statement before the description?

Is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" a conditional statement or not? Is "When a Flying Monstrous Creature" a conditional statement or not? Where are these conditions properly marginalized through another condition?
.

Because there are two ways that the FMC can move. Gliding and Swooping. That is the entirety of the IF condition.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

So, where does it say that a "described as" statement allows you to ignore an "if" statement before the description?

Is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" a conditional statement or not? Is "When a Flying Monstrous Creature" a conditional statement or not? Where are these conditions properly marginalized through another condition?.

Because there are two ways that the FMC can move. Gliding and Swooping. That is the entirety of the IF condition.

And you missed the "When" condition, too.

Your entire argument for 11 pages has been based on a "conditional" fallacy.

The rule clearly states that FMCs move like Jump when they move. The Jump rule clearly states that they gain DS since they are described as moving like jump.

Nothing more needs to be said. Nothing you have shown in your attempt to make some pre-deployment issue of this has had any relevance.

And you missed the "When" condition, too.

No we haven't. The when happens in every instance a legal movement action can take place. Since no movement actions can take place before deployment it has no relevance to a rule that only cares about how to describe a units movement during actual RAW movement periods of the game.

Christoph - I've not said they are a jump MC all the time. But luckily I don't have to - to satisfy the rule they have to be at all described as jump. Which they are

I bother with conditionals only if they are important. Here, it isn't.

Fragile wrote:Your entire argument for 11 pages has been based on a "conditional" fallacy.

The rule clearly states that FMCs move like Jump when they move. The Jump rule clearly states that they gain DS since they are described as moving like jump.

Nothing more needs to be said. Nothing you have shown in your attempt to make some pre-deployment issue of this has had any relevance.

Then you choose to ignore the FMC rules for Deployment and the conditional states of the FMC's Movement.

Lusiphur wrote:

And you missed the "When" condition, too.

No we haven't. The when happens in every instance a legal movement action can take place. Since no movement actions can take place before deployment it has no relevance to a rule that only cares about how to describe a units movement during actual RAW movement periods of the game.

Yes, you have. Moving later by a certain method does not pre-grant you access to those rules any more than a Skyhammer Devastator Squad is Relentless 2 Turns after they arrive.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Christoph - I've not said they are a jump MC all the time. But luckily I don't have to - to satisfy the rule they have to be at all described as jump. Which they are

I bother with conditionals only if they are important. Here, it isn't.

You choose to treat them as unimportant. If they were unimportant, why were they put in?

"Moving later" implies there was movement before. Feel free to show me RAW where any unit in the entire game is able to perform movement actions before deployment. This made up movement period of yours still does not exist in the game.

Here's another way of looking at it, does the Jump rule state that a unit that will be or has been described as moving like a Jump unit gain the Jump rules? Or is it just used with a present tense?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lusiphur wrote:
"Moving later" implies there was movement before. Feel free to show me RAW where any unit in the entire game is able to perform movement actions before deployment. This made up movement period of yours still does not exist in the game.

Than you misunderstood the point of the statement. If a unit had a rule that allows it to move like a Jump unit in Turn 3, does it still get to start in Deep Strike Reserves?

You choose to treat them as unimportant. If they were unimportant, why were they put in?

They are unimportant in this case. They are important in other cases. Like determining how the FMC moves you need to know if it is Gliding or Swooping. However the relevant rule doesn't care if FMCs are gliding, swooping or scratching their bums. It cares in they description contains the pisitive statement of "moves like Jump units" which FMCs undeniably do.

So prove the relevance of the conditions. Prove that the description either magically disappears or can not be read when the conditions are not met.

 FlingitNow wrote:

You choose to treat them as unimportant. If they were unimportant, why were they put in?

They are unimportant in this case. They are important in other cases. Like determining how the FMC moves you need to know if it is Gliding or Swooping. However the relevant rule doesn't care if FMCs are gliding, swooping or scratching their bums. It cares in they description contains the pisitive statement of "moves like Jump units" which FMCs undeniably do.

So prove the relevance of the conditions. Prove that the description either magically disappears or can not be read when the conditions are not met.

I have proved the relevance because of the rules in play for the FMC under Deployment, Flight Forms, Gliding, and Swooping.

You need to provide where they become irrelevant.

These rules that describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit are always on the unit type description for the FMC.

The rules do not magically disappear and reappear on the pages in the BRB. The rules always describe the FMC. They are always part of the unit type description

This rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump.



We look at the unit type description where the rules tell us explicitly to look for where the FMC is described . . .



We can come to no other conclusion than that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
I have proved the relevance because of the rules in play for the FMC under Deployment, Flight Forms, Gliding, and Swooping.

You need to provide where they become irrelevant.

Incorrect. You need to prove relevance to the rule below since that is the rule that grants Deep Strike.



You have already admitted that the Glide and Swoop rules describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

The above rule only cares about whether or not something is described as moving like a Jump unit when it grants Deep Strike.

By your own admission, the rule grants Deep Strike.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

You choose to treat them as unimportant. If they were unimportant, why were they put in?

They are unimportant in this case. They are important in other cases. Like determining how the FMC moves you need to know if it is Gliding or Swooping. However the relevant rule doesn't care if FMCs are gliding, swooping or scratching their bums. It cares in they description contains the pisitive statement of "moves like Jump units" which FMCs undeniably do.

So prove the relevance of the conditions. Prove that the description either magically disappears or can not be read when the conditions are not met.

I have proved the relevance because of the rules in play for the FMC under Deployment, Flight Forms, Gliding, and Swooping.

You need to provide where they become irrelevant.

Show relevance for the being described as clause. Show that the description goes away when not gliding or swooping.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

These rules that describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit are always on the unit type description for the FMC.

The fact that they are always in the Unit Type description doesn't change the fact that they are both conditional statements. After all, how many constant, always describing features start with "If" or "When"?

col_impact wrote:The rules do not magically disappear and reappear on the pages in the BRB. The rules always describe the FMC. They are always part of the unit type description

I am not claiming they disappear, YOU are. You are claiming that the "If" does not matter (and the "When" as well), and applies when it is not in play.

col_impact wrote:This rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump.

And they are only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. Neither applies when Deployment begins.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

We look at the unit type description where the rules tell us explicitly to look for where the FMC is described . . .

Spoiler:

UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.

We can come to no other conclusion than that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

And yet, the rule does not say, "Units that will be or have been described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules." It is "Units that ARE described". You know, present tense, conditions met or non-existant, that sort of thing?

An FMC is only described moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Swooping. If it is not Gliding or Swooping, it is not described as moving like a Jump unit. If it is not described as a Jump Unit, it does not have access to their rules.

An FMC is only given the status of Gliding or Swooping when deployed, and no permission is granted to treat it as such before it is deployed. Therefore, before an FMC is deployed, it carries no description of moving like a Jump unit, just the potential. If it does not have access to the Jump rules before it deploys, it does not have Deep Strike, and so cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves (unless the specific unit is required to, per Drop Pod Precedence).

Being able to get Deep Strike later in the game is not carte blanche to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. Being able to move like a Jump unit at a later time does not allow you to use its rules before you gain them.

Look up "If" and see how the logic for it works, and while you are at it, look up "When". It is amazing how if you apply the language and logic of the words presented it does not mean what you have stated for the last 7 pages.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
I have proved the relevance because of the rules in play for the FMC under Deployment, Flight Forms, Gliding, and Swooping.

You need to provide where they become irrelevant.

Incorrect. You need to prove relevance to the rule below since that is the rule that grants Deep Strike.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

You have already admitted that the Glide and Swoop rules describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

The above rule only cares about whether or not something is described as moving like a Jump unit when it grants Deep Strike.

By your own admission, the rule grants Deep Strike.

True, it grants Deep Strike. However, it is a present tense case. When Deployment begins, FMCs do not actually carry a description of moving like a Jump Unit, just the capacity and the eventual use of it. We do not have permission to treat them as having that until the model is deployed. Look it up in Deployment of the FMC rules.

Can you provide a case of the Jump movement descriptions at any place NOT attached to a conditional phrase like "if" or "when"? All you've said is it does not matter, which is denying that conditions matter, which you have not properly supported at this point.

FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

You choose to treat them as unimportant. If they were unimportant, why were they put in?

They are unimportant in this case. They are important in other cases. Like determining how the FMC moves you need to know if it is Gliding or Swooping. However the relevant rule doesn't care if FMCs are gliding, swooping or scratching their bums. It cares in they description contains the pisitive statement of "moves like Jump units" which FMCs undeniably do.

So prove the relevance of the conditions. Prove that the description either magically disappears or can not be read when the conditions are not met.

I have proved the relevance because of the rules in play for the FMC under Deployment, Flight Forms, Gliding, and Swooping.

You need to provide where they become irrelevant.

Show relevance for the being described as clause. Show that the description goes away when not gliding or swooping.

That's not how it works, and you know it. Show the permission to treat them as Gliding or Swooping before the model deploys.

The fact that they are always in the Unit Type description doesn't change the fact that they are both conditional statements.

So you admit they are described as moving like jump units. Now what does the rule require?

That's not how it works, and you know it. Show the permission to treat them as Gliding or Swooping before the model deploys.

Who said I was treating them as Gliding or Swooping? I've never made that claim. I've stated the description doesn't disappear. You agree. So we agree that FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units. Now what does the rule requure for them to gain Deepstrike?

 FlingitNow wrote:

The fact that they are always in the Unit Type description doesn't change the fact that they are both conditional statements.

So you admit they are described as moving like jump units. Now what does the rule require?

That they meet the conditions of their rules. The FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as "moving like a Jump Unit". The FMC is not granted permission to be Gliding or Swooping till they are Deployed.

That is what the FMC rules require to be described as moving like a Jump unit.

 FlingitNow wrote:

That's not how it works, and you know it. Show the permission to treat them as Gliding or Swooping before the model deploys.

Who said I was treating them as Gliding or Swooping? I've never made that claim. I've stated the description doesn't disappear. You agree. So we agree that FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units. Now what does the rule requure for them to gain Deepstrike?

In order for an FMC to be described as moving like a JMC, it must be Gliding or Swooping. No other avenues for describing an FMC as moving like a JMC have been presented.

The fact they get it is not in dispute. The issue is timing. When the time comes to put units in Deep Strike Reserves during Deployment, FMCs are NOT described as moving like JMCs, therefore do not have Deep Strike and cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves for the start of the game.

Quite simple. I don't understand why you guys find this so complicated. It's almost like trying to get Blacktoof to admit an Assault Squad is a unit, or why Cypher could not Infiltrate a unit of Plague Marines back in 6th.

Charistoph wrote:

In order for an FMC to be described as moving like a JMC, it must be Gliding or Swooping. No other avenues for describing an FMC as moving like a JMC have been presented.

The fact they get it is not in dispute. The issue is timing. When the time comes to put units in Deep Strike Reserves during Deployment, FMCs are NOT described as moving like JMCs, therefore do not have Deep Strike and cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves for the start of the game.

Because you fail to show any rule that requires them to move like Jump Infantry predeployment. Your interpretation makes the Jump rule impossible since no unit that would be described as " moving like jump" would ever be able to "move" predeployment.

They are shown to move like jump during the game, that is all the Jump rule requires.

Charistoph wrote:
That they meet the conditions of their rules. The FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as "moving like a Jump Unit". The FMC is not granted permission to be Gliding or Swooping till they are Deployed.

That is what the FMC rules require to be described as moving like a Jump unit.

You are completely confused here [see what I mark above in red].

The unit type description for the FMC is what describes the FMC.

The FMC rules do not internally use the word describe for anything.

The FMC rules say that the FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to 'move like' a Jump unit.

The FMC rules do not say that the FMC must be in a Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as 'moving like' a Jump unit.

You are inserting "described as" into the rules and hoping people won't notice. Your insertion of "described as" into the rule is forced and causes the rule to make no sense.

The FMC rules for Gliding and Swooping are a portion of the unit type description for the FMC and it is in their capacity as a portion of the unit type description that they describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit and that description is as continuous and static as the words on the pages of the BRB.

It's the unit type description that describes the FMC. Until you get that straight in your head your argument will remain invalid.


So, again, the Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.



In the unit type description the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.


The Jump rule is satisfied. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

In order for an FMC to be described as moving like a JMC, it must be Gliding or Swooping. No other avenues for describing an FMC as moving like a JMC have been presented.

The fact they get it is not in dispute. The issue is timing. When the time comes to put units in Deep Strike Reserves during Deployment, FMCs are NOT described as moving like JMCs, therefore do not have Deep Strike and cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves for the start of the game.

Because you fail to show any rule that requires them to move like Jump Infantry predeployment. Your interpretation makes the Jump rule impossible since no unit that would be described as " moving like jump" would ever be able to "move" predeployment.

They are shown to move like jump during the game, that is all the Jump rule requires.

Incorrect. The initial description of the FMC where it describes it as a MC with extra rules could have just called it a JMC with no conditions. The rules regarding Flight Form could have just stated that unless the FMC is Swooping, it is always Gliding with no other conditions.

Instead all we have is Deployment which establishes the mode at the time the model is deployed, and those modes are what describe the FMC as moving like a JMC. Flight Modes then force a determination at every Movement Phase after that. Nothing else to provide a status or mode before deployment or globally.

The fact that you cannot "move" predeployment is irrelevant since there are other ways to address this situation if that was the desire or intention.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
That they meet the conditions of their rules. The FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as "moving like a Jump Unit". The FMC is not granted permission to be Gliding or Swooping till they are Deployed.

That is what the FMC rules require to be described as moving like a Jump unit.

You are completely confused here [see what I mark above in red].

The unit type description for the FMC is what describes the FMC.

The FMC rules do not internally use the word describe for anything.

The FMC rules say that the FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to 'move like' a Jump unit.

The FMC rules do not say that the FMC must be in a Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as 'moving like' a Jump unit.

You are inserting "described as" into the rules and hoping people won't notice. Your insertion of "described as" into the rule is forced and causes the rule to make no sense.

Now THAT is a load of bovine after product. Just because it does not use the same word does not mean that the definition does not apply. If that was the case, neither Glide nor Swoop would allow you to use the Jump rules in the first place.

Can you provide any other point in the FMC unit type where anything approaching a description of moving like a JMC other than Gliding or Swooping exists in the FMC rules? This has not been properly addressed by you. In turn, you seek to use this bap to try and ignore the conditions which are applied to the descriptions provided in the Glide and Swoop rules.

Without the Glide and Swoop rules in play, nor without anything else to provide any such description, there is nothing to reference the Jump rule with.

col_impact wrote:The FMC rules for Gliding and Swooping are a portion of the unit type description for the FMC and it is in their capacity as a portion of the unit type description that they describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit and that description is as continuous and static as the words on the pages of the BRB.

AND BOTH OF THEM ARE CONDITIONAL.

col_impact wrote:It's the unit type description that describes the FMC. Until you get that straight in your head your argument will remain invalid.

Incorrect. I understand it perfectly. Your delusion that the "if" and "when" used to enact those status which describe the FMC as moving like a JMC do not matter is what makes your argument invalid.

col_impact wrote:So, again, the Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

In the unit type description the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

The Jump rule is satisfied. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

But the FMC's rules do care and are not satisfied. if you apply the Jump rule globally to the FMC, you are ignoring the conditions set forth by the FMC's unit type, thereby breaking ITS rules. The Jump's conditions do not allow you to ignore the FMC's any more than an Assault Vehicle rule allows you to charge after Deep Strike.

An FMC is only described as moving like a JMC when Gliding or Swooping. If doing neither, or under the status of neither, the FMC is not described as moving like a JMC, and so does not have access to the Deep Strike rule till it is too late to put them in Game Start Deep Strike Reserves.

I think after 11 pages, we are at an impasse

One side has worked out that the "described as" places no requirements on "how much" the unit is described as moving like Jump. It could move like jump only on a blood moon sunday, or when the opponent is wearing pink, and it would still be described as moving like jump.

The other hasnt.

That they meet the conditions of their rules. The FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as "moving like a Jump Unit"

You've made this claim now support it. Prove that the passages that describe FMCs as moving like jump unit magically disappear when not in gliding or swooping mode. Page and paragraph.

 FlingitNow wrote:

That they meet the conditions of their rules. The FMC must be in Gliding or Swooping mode to be described as "moving like a Jump Unit"

You've made this claim now support it. Prove that the passages that describe FMCs as moving like jump unit magically disappear when not in gliding or swooping mode. Page and paragraph.

Incorrect view. "It doesn't say I can't" is insufficient evidence for an argument. The only time an FMC is described as moving like a JMC is while Gliding or Swooping. Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode. OR, failing that, where either condition is not dependent on another condition such as Deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I think after 11 pages, we are at an impasse

One side has worked out that the "described as" places no requirements on "how much" the unit is described as moving like Jump. It could move like jump only on a blood moon sunday, or when the opponent is wearing pink, and it would still be described as moving like jump.

The other has worked out that there are conditions applied to "when" the "described as" is functioning for the unit type in question.

FTFY. A colorful, but accurate description of the point I've been trying to make.

But since there is nothing to support the case that "described as" gets to ignore the "how much" (though "when" and "if" would be far more accurate) when applied to when it is described, it means they have no case.

And why should I work out a case that supports my opponent when I do not believe it? I believe in following the conditions placed in the rules, and that the FMCs conditions have as much, if not more, weight than a referenced unit type's rules.

Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode.

Show me in the rules were it can move as anything other then glide or swoop.

A FMC must choose between glide or swoop when it moves, this is RAW. And it must do so during every actual movement phase in the game. Your only argument is that it can't choose between it's only two legal modes of movement during pre-deployment where there is no actual movement. That is what makes your argument irrelevant.

Christoph - prove the conditions are relevant IN THIS INSTANCE

The actual rules do not place any requirements on WHEN it must be described as. Just that it is described as.

It is, without doubt, described as.

Incorrect view. "It doesn't say I can't" is insufficient evidence for an argument. The only time an FMC is described as moving like a JMC is while Gliding or Swooping. Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode. OR, failing that, where either condition is not dependent on another condition such as Deployment.

Why would I need to show the underlined? Prove that moving like jump units is a requirement of the rule?

Incorrect view. "It doesn't say I can't" is insufficient evidence for an argument. The only time an FMC is described as moving like a JMC is while Gliding or Swooping. Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode. OR, failing that, where either condition is not dependent on another condition such as Deployment.

It doesnt. FMCs can only move like Jump because they can only Glide or Swoop. That is clearly laid out in their rules that have been quoted often.

This has basically been one page of substantial debate and ten pages of screaming the same points over and over again with no attempt to present your arguments in a different way. Thusly, I will pass along a word of advice I received from a very wise man:

"Never argue with a fool in public. It's often hard for the public to tell who the fool is."

I cant even recall what the original query was.....

 Ratius wrote:
I cant even recall what the original query was.....

I can tell you the original question, since I asked it:

 Jstncloud wrote:
A local Tyranid player is not certain he is allowed to Deep Strike his Flyrants because they can 'move like Jump Monstrous Creatures' but they don't technically have the rule which in turn grants the use of Deep Strike.

Is there anywhere in the rules that you guys could point me to that might clear this up for him definitively? He is trying to learn some tactics for his army and the ability to Deep Strike would be very helpful.

I've tried to keep up with the debate and I see both sides of the argument but in this particular case my opponent (the nid player) seems to side with notion he cannot deep strike. Until he feels compelled otherwise I suppose he won't be using the rule.

I think, at the very least, an errata/FAQ to address this (and similar instances) would be beneficial. But seeing as GW does not support the tournament scene the burden falls on TO's and gentlemen's agreements to cover the issue.

I don't play in tournaments (the nacho cheese sauce is too damn strong for me these days) however if I've learned one thing over the years in regards to playing 40k it is to socialize with your opponent and come to compromises where necessary to ensure that you both maximize your enjoyment. If an opponent and I were to argue, like the one in this thread, we would be doing each other a disservice, if you spend too much time bickering over a rule and not playing then why have you shown up in the first place? (This statement of course applies to a face-to-face meeting and not the interwebs).

Thanks for the attempt at a clarification nonetheless fellas.

Lusiphur wrote:

Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode.

Show me in the rules were it can move as anything other then glide or swoop.

A FMC must choose between glide or swoop when it moves, this is RAW. And it must do so during every actual movement phase in the game. Your only argument is that it can't choose between it's only two legal modes of movement during pre-deployment where there is no actual movement. That is what makes your argument irrelevant.

Sure. It's been brought up numerous times already.

There is the default status of the FMC before any other conditional statements are met. I will now highlight in green the conditional statements which place limits on when something is defined. I will highlight in red the actual movement rules.




Now try and remove the sentences with conditions and see if there is any Swooping, Gliding, or moving like a JMC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Christoph - prove the conditions are relevant IN THIS INSTANCE

The actual rules do not place any requirements on WHEN it must be described as. Just that it is described as.

It is, without doubt, described as.

The FMC rules make them relevant since they are the ones imposing them. Try removing every conditional sentence from the FMC rules and see how the FMC is described as moving without them. If conditions are not relevant, then there is no point putting them in. Putting in conditions is what makes them relevant.

FlingitNow wrote:

Incorrect view. "It doesn't say I can't" is insufficient evidence for an argument. The only time an FMC is described as moving like a JMC is while Gliding or Swooping. Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode. OR, failing that, where either condition is not dependent on another condition such as Deployment.

Why would I need to show the underlined? Prove that moving like jump units is a requirement of the rule?

Well, it needs to be described as such, and if there is no mention of moving like a jump unit, there is no description, now is there?

Fragile wrote:

Incorrect view. "It doesn't say I can't" is insufficient evidence for an argument. The only time an FMC is described as moving like a JMC is while Gliding or Swooping. Show me where the FMC DOES move like a jump unit when not in Gliding or Swooping Mode. OR, failing that, where either condition is not dependent on another condition such as Deployment.

It doesnt. FMCs can only move like Jump because they can only Glide or Swoop. That is clearly laid out in their rules that have been quoted often.

Incorrect. I've laid it out above. Once the game starts, they can only Glide or Swoop, but that is not the point of this discussion, is it?

Well, it needs to be described as such, and if there is no mention of moving like a jump unit, there is no description, now is there? 

Cool so we need the description to say that they move like jump units. You have already quoted the parts of the description that say that. So you now how to prove those parts magically disappear when not gliding or swooping. Or is this your concession?

Now try and remove the sentences with conditions and see if there is any Swooping, Gliding, or moving like a JMC.

Hrmmm, ok, Let's see, we have the line:

Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.

Looks like there is no conditional on that statement. And we can see it has only two movement modes listed, glide and swoop. And since both movement modes are described as jump it satisfies the Jump rule. Go figure, what I have been saying all along.

Ooops, you just proved my point.

Looks like this thread is finished / has become a bit circular, so locking...