A local Tyranid player is not certain he is allowed to Deep Strike his Flyrants because they can 'move like Jump Monstrous Creatures' but they don't technically have the rule which in turn grants the use of Deep Strike.
Is there anywhere in the rules that you guys could point me to that might clear this up for him definitively? He is trying to learn some tactics for his army and the ability to Deep Strike would be very helpful.
Yes he could do this. However it's a terrible idea a large model deepstriking and full scattering is not great. But much worse is when he deeps trikes he is not flying so he can be shot at with regular BS
Is there a specific text that explicitly gives FMCs for Tyranids Deep Strike? He was wanting some page references to justify the use. I assumed he could but he compared them to Daemons, who are explicitly given Deep Strike, versus Nids who don't have it listed and don't seem to have a special rule that explicitly grants it.
Jstncloud wrote: Is there a specific text that explicitly gives FMCs for Tyranids Deep Strike? He was wanting some page references to justify the use.
He was asking for a page reference in regards to Skarbrand's statement that a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives from Deep Strike Reserve must do so in Swooping mode.
Jstncloud wrote: Is there a specific text that explicitly gives FMCs for Tyranids Deep Strike? He was wanting some page references to justify the use.
He was asking for a page reference in regards to Skarbrand's statement that a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives from Deep Strike Reserve must do so in Swooping mode.
Thats not what I was asking though, I'm asking about FMCs in general that don't have the Deep Strike rule on their profile, are they allowed to Deep Strike? If so why/how and what rule(s) allow it. The only thing we found in the book was the line that says "move like Jump Monstrous Creatures" but moving like them dose not grant the specific rules that come along with that correct? (Jump Monstrous Creatures are allowed to Deep Strike, a Flying Hive Tyrant moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature but it technically is not one by trait)
Ghaz wrote: That doesn't change the fact that is point dameanone brought up and was being corrected on.
I get it, I was trying to get an answer to my initial post sir.
jokerkd wrote: He's not referring to anything posted in the thread. He's still talking about his friend from the OP
Yup, just wanting to help him find out if his Flyrants can Deep Strike and if so where the supporting rules are. I told him I thought they could but he wasn't sure that he was allowed to and upon checking the rules we couldn't find anything specifically allowing them to do so.
I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.
So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike
jokerkd wrote: I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.
So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike
Thats exactly what he thought. Some of the posts above had me very confused. Thanks.
jokerkd wrote: I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.
So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike
Actually, it does.
2nd paragraph of Jump units, last sentence:
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
However, in order to take advantage of it, the FMC must be in Gliding Mode to "move like a Jump unit", and Deep Striking precludes the FMC from using the Gliding Mode, so the FMC being placed in Reserves cannot be declared to Deep Strike without another form of access.
That being said, most older players are so used to it, I would allow for it.
As far as I can tell, FMCs can be deployed by Deep Strike as normal and count as being in swooping mode when they do so. The wording makes it seem like it is deployed like any other model and can't move after doing so, but counts as swooping for the purposes of being targeted etc.
Happyjew wrote: Charistoph, check the rule book. How does a Swooping fmc move?
It's been a while for me and I could have sworn Swooping was its own thing, so let's review, especially since no one has actually quoted it in this thread, or any thread I've read about this recently:
Spoiler:
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:
Well, what do you know. Both Glide AND Swoop both move like a Jump MC. So, Deep Strike is as included as MTC is.
Sometimes doing your own research is important, but it should be noted that when people make their arguments, they include proper references.
jokerkd wrote: I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.
So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike
Actually, it does.
2nd paragraph of Jump units, last sentence:
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
However, in order to take advantage of it, the FMC must be in Gliding Mode to "move like a Jump unit", and Deep Striking precludes the FMC from using the Gliding Mode, so the FMC being placed in Reserves cannot be declared to Deep Strike without another form of access.
That being said, most older players are so used to it, I would allow for it.
But you could also say the FMC doesn't need to be "in a mode" to be "described as".
Yeah, as Other above said, both Swooping and Gliding FMCs gain all the special rules of Jump units, including Deep Strike while in one of their movement modes. The main argument against them gaining Deep Strike stems from the poorly written FMC rules, because they do not describe how the FMC moves when it is neither Swooping or Gliding. You declare which flight mode you are in at the start of the FMC's move. So when it comes time to declare whether your FMC is in regular reserve or Deep Strike reserve, the FMC has not moved and is not in either flight mode, and so has no access to Jump special rules.
Personally I view this as poor rules writing and RAI is convincingly arguable that FMCs are allowed to Deep Strike, so I allow it with my opponents. YMMV.
eskimo wrote:But you could also say the FMC doesn't need to be "in a mode" to be "described as".
Another rule that'll never be clear.
Considering it needs to be in a Mode in order to gain such benefits, and considering at the time of that quote, if two modes are treated differently with different Benefits, being in a Mode is requisite.
Bojazz wrote:Yeah, as Other above said, both Swooping and Gliding FMCs gain all the special rules of Jump units, including Deep Strike while in one of their movement modes. The main argument against them gaining Deep Strike stems from the poorly written FMC rules, because they do not describe how the FMC moves when it is neither Swooping or Gliding. You declare which flight mode you are in at the start of the FMC's move. So when it comes time to declare whether your FMC is in regular reserve or Deep Strike reserve, the FMC has not moved and is not in either flight mode, and so has no access to Jump special rules.
Personally I view this as poor rules writing and RAI is convincingly arguable that FMCs are allowed to Deep Strike, so I allow it with my opponents. YMMV.
Considering an FMC only can be Gliding or Swooping and no provision is made for them not to be doing either, than it can qualify. Unless, you can point out where this does not qualify?
Seriously, they should have just started with adding "Jump" where it says "it has all the rules of a Monstrous Creature" and it would have been fine and simple.
Being "described as moving like a jump unit" is very different than "moving like a jump unit"
The FMC is always "described as moving like a jump unit" and is never not "described as moving like a jump unit".
The rules for Gliding and Swiping are always available as description of the FMC even while not actively in effect.
The FMC has Deep Strike. While sorting out Deep Strike Reserves, the answer to the question "is this unit described as moving like a jump unit?" is yes.
Charistoph wrote: Considering an FMC only can be Gliding or Swooping and no provision is made for them not to be doing either, than it can qualify. Unless, you can point out where this does not qualify?
- You choose a Flight Mode at the beginning of the FMC's move. Not his movement phase, his Move. - Flight Modes last until the beginning of your next turn. When an FMC doesn't move during it's turn, then what movement mode is it in? The Flight Mode from the previous turn has expired, and it has not moved so cannot declare a new Flight Mode. It is in a state of "Flight Mode Limbo". In other words, it simply acts as a normal Monstrous Creature until it moves.
Charistoph wrote: Considering an FMC only can be Gliding or Swooping and no provision is made for them not to be doing either, than it can qualify. Unless, you can point out where this does not qualify?
- You choose a Flight Mode at the beginning of the FMC's move. Not his movement phase, his Move.
- Flight Modes last until the beginning of your next turn.
When an FMC doesn't move during it's turn, then what movement mode is it in? The Flight Mode from the previous turn has expired, and it has not moved so cannot declare a new Flight Mode. It is in a state of "Flight Mode Limbo". In other words, it simply acts as a normal Monstrous Creature until it moves.
Can you provide a quote that states that it is or "acts as" a normal Monstrous Creature? Here's a hint, you just missed referencing it.
Sure I can. First sentence under Flying Monstrous Creatures on page 68. "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules". A FMC who is not moving is not using any of the additional rules of Swooping or Gliding, and so is a Monstrous Creature by default. Now can you provide a quote that says you may use the Swooping or Gliding rules when your FMC hasn't moved?
Pro DS: It moves like a Jump MC when it Glides or Swoops (with additional rules when it Swoops), as they are the only choices available, it must have DS. Pro side is 'always moves like Jump, therefore must have DS.'
Con DS: You select the Glide or Swoop mode when you (a) deploy him on the table, where he must be gliding, therefore too late to glide, (b) he arrives from reserves. At this point, you are yet to make the selection for Glide or Swoop, so don't have access to DS. When he arrives, you can say Swoop or Glide and gain DS, but you can't suddenly put him in DS reserves, as he didn't start the game there. Con side is basically a timing issue.
This argument is a rules interpretation. I play it as, you need the DS rule in your profile to actually DS (hence why I allow Daemon Princes to DS). But you'll need to decide in your gaming group how you're going to play it.
Bojazz wrote: Sure I can. First sentence under Flying Monstrous Creatures on page 68. "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules". A FMC who is not moving is not using any of the additional rules of Swooping or Gliding, and so is a Monstrous Creature by default. Now can you provide a quote that says you may use the Swooping or Gliding rules when your FMC hasn't moved?
Nope, you missed it:
Spoiler:
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are offered the choice but are not required to use either one, but if they move, they must use either one. Technically speaking, the Gliding option allows for walking like a regular MC as well and does not force a Jump, allowing it to Jump in to Assault.
Pro DS: It moves like a Jump MC when it Glides or Swoops (with additional rules when it Swoops), as they are the only choices available, it must have DS. Pro side is 'always moves like Jump, therefore must have DS.'
Con DS: You select the Glide or Swoop mode when you (a) deploy him on the table, where he must be gliding, therefore too late to glide, (b) he arrives from reserves. At this point, you are yet to make the selection for Glide or Swoop, so don't have access to DS. When he arrives, you can say Swoop or Glide and gain DS, but you can't suddenly put him in DS reserves, as he didn't start the game there. Con side is basically a timing issue.
Pretty much boils it down.
Also for Con, you don't move in Reserves, so are not using either Mode and so don't have access to DS.
Frozocrone wrote: This argument is a rules interpretation. I play it as, you need the DS rule in your profile to actually DS (hence why I allow Daemon Princes to DS). But you'll need to decide in your gaming group how you're going to play it.
So you don't allow Drop Pods to work? I'm only saying this to point out a possible way around requiring the DS rule to actually Deep Strike.
Bojazz wrote: Sure I can. First sentence under Flying Monstrous Creatures on page 68. "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules". A FMC who is not moving is not using any of the additional rules of Swooping or Gliding, and so is a Monstrous Creature by default. Now can you provide a quote that says you may use the Swooping or Gliding rules when your FMC hasn't moved?
Nope, you missed it:
Spoiler:
FLIGHT MODES Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are offered the choice but are not required to use either one, but if they move, they must use either one. Technically speaking, the Gliding option allows for walking like a regular MC as well and does not force a Jump, allowing it to Jump in to Assault.
You missed my entire question. They must use either one WHEN THEY MOVE, that's correct. But what are they when they DON'T MOVE? They can't be Gliding or Swooping, because they only have access to those rules once they begin their move. The rules state they are Monstrous Creatures that have access to Gliding or Swooping rules when they move. So when they don't move, they're just regular Monstrous Creatures with Jink.
But yeah, Frozocrone boiled it down pretty much perfectly. As I stated earlier, there's a very strong RAI argument that they SHOULD be able to deep strike, and that's how I play it. I'm just arguing the RAW.
Bojazz wrote: A Swooping or Gliding FMC is. A Non-Swooping or Gliding FMC is not.
So the answer is yes then. You just indicated it is "described as moving like a jump unit" by pointing out that it has Swooping and Gliding abilities. If the FMC is "described as moving like a jump unit" then it has Deep Strike.
The rules only care that it is "described as moving like a jump unit". That is RAW.
Or are you trying to say that Swooping and Gliding abilities are not descriptive of an FMC?
So by that logic, if I have a piece of terrain called a Trampoline that has a special rule saying "Any unit inside this terrain at the beginning of their turn moves like a jump unit for the duration of the turn", then everything in the game should be able to Deep Strike so long as they come into contact with the terrain at some point during the game. Because as some point during that game they can be described as "moving like a jump unit"?
Your logic doesn't stand up. In order to be described as "moving like a jump unit" (and gain access to the jump rules) the unit must CURRENTLY be "moving like a jump unit". Simply being able to move like a jump unit at some point in time doesn't give it access to all the jump rules at all times.
Bojazz wrote: So by that logic, if I have a piece of terrain called a Trampoline that has a special rule saying "Any unit inside this terrain at the beginning of their turn moves like a jump unit for the duration of the turn", then everything in the game should be able to Deep Strike so long as they come into contact with the terrain at some point during the game. Because as some point during that game they can be described as "moving like a jump unit"?
Your logic doesn't stand up. In order to be described as "moving like a jump unit" (and gain access to the jump rules) the unit must CURRENTLY be "moving like a jump unit". Simply being able to move like a jump unit at some point in time doesn't give it access to all the jump rules at all times.
I am not using "that logic". I am using the logic in the rules.
The rules say "described as moving like a jump unit" not "while moving like a unit". Why are you dropping "described" and adding "while"?
Whether or not a unit is described is something that is a simple yes or no.
We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. I can definitively point in the BRB where it is described as such. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during *those times*.
Is an FMC that has not moved described as moving like a Jump Creature? No, it is not.
Bojazz wrote: Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during those times.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. That is RAW.
If you want to add *AT TIMES* then that is HYWPI and please mark your answer as such.
Bojazz wrote: Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during those times.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. That is RAW.
If you want to add *AT TIMES* then that is HYWPI and please mark your answer as such.
Bojazz wrote: Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during those times.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. That is RAW.
If you want to add *AT TIMES* then that is HYWPI and please mark your answer as such.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is not described as moving like a Jump unit while it is not moving like a Jump Unit. Therefore it does not have Deep Strike while it is not moving like a jump unit.
If you want to add *WAS or WILL BE* then that is HIWPI and please mark your answer as such.
Units aren't checked once for all states they are in during the game, they are constantly checked for which state they are in. For instance, The "Gone to Ground" units state that "a unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge". That state is constantly checked to see if a unit is CURRENTLY gone to ground. Otherwise a unit that has gone to ground would never be able to move run or charge ever again, because at one point in time you can say "that unit has gone to ground".
Likewise, you cannot say that a unit not moving like a Jump unit is described as moving like a Jump unit, just because it has (or will) at some point in the game.
To answer your question Charistoph, I don't have my Codex on me, but I'm fairly certain it says Drop Pods arrive by DS, which is enough for me to allow it.
Units aren't checked once for all states they are in during the game, they are constantly checked for which state they are in. For instance, The "Gone to Ground" units state that "a unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge". That state is constantly checked to see if a unit is CURRENTLY gone to ground. Otherwise a unit that has gone to ground would never be able to move run or charge ever again, because at one point in time you can say "that unit has gone to ground".
Quit trying to Strawman what is straightforward logic in my argument. The rules are very clear about Gone to Ground.
Spoiler:
A unit that has Gone to Ground cannot move, Run or charge. It can
only fire Snap Shots when it wishes to shoot, and cannot fire
Overwatch. At the end of its following turn, the unit returns to normal, the
marker is removed and the unit is free to act as normal from then on.
Bojazz wrote: Likewise, you cannot say that a unit not moving like a Jump unit is described as moving like a Jump unit, just because it has (or will) at some point in the game.
Does the rule in question ask if a unit is "moving like a Jump unit" or "described as moving like a Jump unit"?
Since the rules ask me if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" then it is clear the answer is yes.
The rules are not asking me if the FMC is "currently moving like a Jump unit". That is something you are making up. You are not allowed to do that and call it RAW. I will stick with RAW.
awesome , you get DS when your either gliding or swooping . When do you get those rules ??
Incorrect. The rules grant you DS if you are described as moving like a jump unit not 'when' or 'while' you are moving like a jump unit.
In order to count as a RAW argument you must adhere to the language used.
The rules use "describe as" - you are not permitted to drop that from the rule or add stuff in like 'currently' or 'while'.
"Currently moving like a jump unit" is not the same thing at all as "described as moving like a jump unit." Pay attention to the actual language and logic used in the rules.
If you are going to insist on disregarding the actual language and logic used then mark your answer HYWPI.
By reading the actual language and logic of the rule it is unequivocally clear that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The rules grant you DS if you are described as moving like a jump unit not 'when' or 'while' you are moving like a jump unit.
In order to count as a RAW argument you must adhere to the language used.
The rules use "describe as" - you are not permitted to drop that from the rule or add stuff in like 'currently' or 'while'.
"Currently moving like a jump unit" is not the same thing at all as "described as moving like a jump unit." Pay attention to the actual language and logic used in the rules.
If you are going to insist on disregarding the actual language and logic used then mark your answer HYWPI.
By reading the actual language and logic of the rule it is unequivocally clear that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
I can't find a actual definition of "Described as" could you point me to one ?
You also did not answer the question of when are you gliding/swooping? When do you get those rules? are both applied at all times ? is it one or the other ? are there requirements for them to be present on the model ?
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The rules grant you DS if you are described as moving like a jump unit not 'when' or 'while' you are moving like a jump unit.
In order to count as a RAW argument you must adhere to the language used.
The rules use "describe as" - you are not permitted to drop that from the rule or add stuff in like 'currently' or 'while'.
"Currently moving like a jump unit" is not the same thing at all as "described as moving like a jump unit." Pay attention to the actual language and logic used in the rules.
If you are going to insist on disregarding the actual language and logic used then mark your answer HYWPI.
By reading the actual language and logic of the rule it is unequivocally clear that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
I can't find a actual definition of "Described as" could you point me to one ?
You also did not answer the question of when are you gliding/swooping? When do you get those rules? are both applied at all times ? is it one or the other ? are there requirements for them to be present on the model ?
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
Here is the where FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
In red is where the FMC unit type is described as moving like a jump unit.
Is an FMC unit described as moving like a jump unit? YES! It is described as moving like a jump unit in its unit type description. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
col_impact wrote: Is an FMC described as moving like a jump unit? YES! It is described as moving like a jump unit in its unit type description. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Really ? cause i'm still not seeing it.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
So we are only allowed to use the JMC rules when is gliding or is swooping.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Ok so it doesn't get a flight mode till it enters play , which is to late for it to go into DS reserve
No movement selected , you don't get swooping/gliding , you don't get JMC rules.
col_impact wrote: Is an FMC described as moving like a jump unit? YES! It is described as moving like a jump unit in its unit type description. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Really ? cause i'm still not seeing it.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
So we are only allowed to use the JMC rules when is gliding or is swooping.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Ok so it doesn't get a flight mode till it enters play , which is to late for it to go into DS reserve
No movement selected , you don't get swooping/gliding , you don't get JMC rules.
Incorrect. We get JMC rules for unit types that are described as moving like Jump units.
I have pointed to where the unit type for Flying Monstrous Creatures is described, using the rules.
To make it crystal clear, here is the Flying Monstrous Creatures description in the Unit Type section.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This is where Flying Monstrous Creatures are described.
In this Unit Type description for FMC, FMC are described as moving like Jump units [see Red].
So it is abundantly clear that FMC are described as moving like Jump units. Therefore FMC have Deep Strike.
In this Unit Type description for FMC, FMC are described as moving like Jump units.
So it is abundantly clear that FMC are described as moving like Jump units. Therefore FMC have Deep Strike.
let me help you out
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
You see that first word ? Its a conditional requirement. Now here comes the problem of your entire argument.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.
Does FMC have the deepstrike rule ? No they do not.
Do FMC that are swooping/gliding , have the DS rule . Yes they get it through the exactly as a JMC portion of the sweeping/gliding rule.
Do FMC have swooping/gliding by default ? No they do not.
How do FMC get swooping gliding ?
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glidingmode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swoopingor Gliding until the start of its next turn
So when you put a FMC into DS reserve , you have not followed any of the above , it cannont be in a gliding or swooping mode. If its not in either , it does not behave exactly as a JMC , which means it does not have deepstrike special rule and cannont be placed there
A FMC only has two modes. Swooping or Gliding. There is no third default state of nothing.
If the FMC doesn't move for a turn guess what, that means it has to be in Gliding mode because that is the only choice of the two that allows for a 0 inch movement distance since swooping has a minimum distance requirement.
Don't forget, jump units can move with or without their jump ability (or gliding) and "walk" so that they can instead use during their assault phase since it can't used during both phases without an exception like Raven Guard.
Lusiphur wrote: A FMC only has two modes. Swooping or Gliding. There is no third default state of nothing.
If the FMC doesn't move for a turn guess what, that means it has to be in Gliding mode because that is the only choice of the two that allows for a 0 inch movement distance since swooping has a minimum distance requirement.
Don't forget, jump units can move with or without their jump ability (or gliding) and "walk" so that they can instead use during their assault phase since it can't used during both phases without an exception like Raven Guard.
Not entirely true. An FMC has 3 modes: Doing Nothing, Swooping, or Gliding. And FMC is not required to be Swooping or Gliding unless it is moving.
And what it does at the start of turn is pointless for this discussion since what we are looking at is its status during deployment, i.e. when you declare a unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves. Without a Movement Phase to choose Gliding or Swooping, what does it count as during deployment and when you cannot choose?
Its stupid, but its RAW. But I'm smart enough to know when to override stupid RAW, like with Drop Pods.
I don't see this third do nothing option in the rules posted for FMCs.
"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."
I mean it actually says two and not three. And moving 0 inches (ie do nothing) is a valid option while gliding since the jump rules allow you to move like your base unit type of a MC.
So at the start of it's movement, you say it's in gliding mode, then you declare it is not moving, then move on to the next unit. Although, I admit, I don't have my rulebook handy so I would need to double check the language in the movement phase rules to verify that you have/how to declare a unit is not moving.
Lusiphur wrote: I don't see this third do nothing option in the rules posted for FMCs.
"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."
I mean it actually says two and not three. And moving 0 inches (ie do nothing) is a valid option while gliding since the jump rules allow you to move like your base unit type of a MC.
So at the start of it's movement, you say it's in gliding mode, then you declare it is not moving, then move on to the next unit. Although, I admit, I don't have my rulebook handy so I would need to double check the language in the movement phase rules to verify that you have/how to declare a unit is not moving.
"Can move" being the option of the choice. It is not a requirement to choose if one is not moving. Also, again, it is not an option during deployment which is the key point to this thread. What they do in the Movement Phase is rather irrelevant.
In this Unit Type description for FMC, FMC are described as moving like Jump units.
So it is abundantly clear that FMC are described as moving like Jump units. Therefore FMC have Deep Strike.
let me help you out
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
You see that first word ? Its a conditional requirement. Now here comes the problem of your entire argument.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.
Does FMC have the deepstrike rule ? No they do not.
Do FMC that are swooping/gliding , have the DS rule . Yes they get it through the exactly as a JMC portion of the sweeping/gliding rule.
Do FMC have swooping/gliding by default ? No they do not.
How do FMC get swooping gliding ?
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glidingmode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swoopingor Gliding until the start of its next turn
So when you put a FMC into DS reserve , you have not followed any of the above , it cannont be in a gliding or swooping mode. If its not in either , it does not behave exactly as a JMC , which means it does not have deepstrike special rule and cannont be placed there
You have failed to follow the language and logic of the rules. Your entire argument is invalid.
The rule asks if the FMC unit type is described as moving like a jump unit. I have pointed to the FMC unit type description and indeed in that description the FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. So the FMC is granted Deep Strike.
You are not permitted to add conditionals where the rules have none. The rules do not say "while a unit is moving like a jump unit, follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules". You are literally making that stuff up. Adhere to the actual language and logic in the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OIIIIIIO wrote: When you are putting units into DSR, is the FMC swooping or gliding? If it is neither then you do not have permission to treat is as a jump unit.
That's not what the rule asks of you. The rule asks if the FMC unit type is described as moving like a jump unit.
If you look at the description of the FMC unit type does it include something which describes the FMC as moving like a jump unit? Yes. Therefore it has Deep Strike
Not entirely true. An FMC has 3 modes: Doing Nothing, Swooping, or Gliding. And FMC is not required to be Swooping or Gliding unless it is moving.
And what it does at the start of turn is pointless for this discussion since what we are looking at is its status during deployment, i.e. when you declare a unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves. Without a Movement Phase to choose Gliding or Swooping, what does it count as during deployment and when you cannot choose?
Its stupid, but its RAW. But I'm smart enough to know when to override stupid RAW, like with Drop Pods.
Incorrect. The rules don't ask for its status during deployment. The rules ask if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". You determine if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" by looking at the unit type description. Indeed the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Not entirely true. An FMC has 3 modes: Doing Nothing, Swooping, or Gliding. And FMC is not required to be Swooping or Gliding unless it is moving.
And what it does at the start of turn is pointless for this discussion since what we are looking at is its status during deployment, i.e. when you declare a unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves. Without a Movement Phase to choose Gliding or Swooping, what does it count as during deployment and when you cannot choose?
Its stupid, but its RAW. But I'm smart enough to know when to override stupid RAW, like with Drop Pods.
Incorrect. The rules don't ask for its status during deployment. The rules ask if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". You determine if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" by looking at the unit type description. Indeed the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". Therefore it has Deep Strike.
It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Zooming, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
And in order to choose Deep Strike as an option, it must have Deep Strike (or be Embarked one that is) during Deployment when Reserves are announced. At this point, the FMC is not Gliding nor Swooping, so not described as moving like a Jump Unit. Since it is not described as moving like a Jump unit at this point, it is NOT a Jump unit so natively does not have Deep Strike.
As I said, this is stupid and we're smarter than that. It really should have stated that FMC have all the rules of a JMC and then added the Zooming Exceptions and saved us all a headache and saved them room to put more pretty pictures in.
Charistoph wrote: It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Zooming, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
Incorrect. "Moving like a jump unit" is always on the description for the FMC unit type. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as "moving like a Jump unit". It's right there on the description.
The rule asks if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" not if the FMC is "moving like a jump unit".
If you fail to account for the semantics and logic of "described as" then your whole argument is invalid.
Charistoph wrote: It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Swooping, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
Incorrect. "Moving like a jump unit" is always on the description for the FMC unit type. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as "moving like a Jump unit". It's right there on the description.
The rule asks if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" not if the FMC is "moving like a jump unit".
If you fail to account for the semantics and logic of "described as" then your whole argument is invalid.
And that description is on a temporary basis which is only referenced while using Gliding or Swooping, and not at any other time, such as deployment. The Wings of Sanguinius Power would not have allowed a Librarian to begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves because it was not a constant status. Gliding and Swooping are not a status the FMC has in deployment, so does not have the JMC connection at that time.
Charistoph wrote: It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Swooping, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
Incorrect. "Moving like a jump unit" is always on the description for the FMC unit type. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as "moving like a Jump unit". It's right there on the description.
The rule asks if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" not if the FMC is "moving like a jump unit".
If you fail to account for the semantics and logic of "described as" then your whole argument is invalid.
And that description is on a temporary basis which is only referenced while using Gliding or Swooping, and not at any other time, such as deployment. The Wings of Sanguinius Power would not have allowed a Librarian to begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves because it was not a constant status. Gliding and Swooping are not a status the FMC has in deployment, so does not have the JMC connection at that time.
Incorrect. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the FMC unit type description even when they are not actively being called upon. I can definitively point to Gliding and Swooping on FMC unit type description and it indeed 100% true and always true that the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit".
You are failing to account for the language and logic of "described as". Your entire argument is invalid.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The glide and swoop rules are a part of the FMC unit type description and therefore are always a part of their description.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the FMC unit type description even when they are not actively being called upon. I can definitively point to Gliding and Swooping on FMC unit type description and it indeed 100% true and always true that the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit".
You are failing to account for the language and logic of "described as". Your entire argument is invalid.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The glide and swoop rules are a part of the FMC unit type description and therefore are always a part of their description.
I am taking it in to account when it tells me to take it in to account. You are suggesting that we must take it in to account at all times, which is not stated by these rules.
If a unit had a Special Rule that allowed it to move like a Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, would you still allow for it to Deep Strike? Your reasoning above says you do.
Would you allow a Librarian with Wings of Sanguinius Pyschic Power, no TDA, no Jump Pack to Deep Strike alone? Your reasoning above says you do.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the FMC unit type description even when they are not actively being called upon. I can definitively point to Gliding and Swooping on FMC unit type description and it indeed 100% true and always true that the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit".
You are failing to account for the language and logic of "described as". Your entire argument is invalid.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The glide and swoop rules are a part of the FMC unit type description and therefore are always a part of their description.
I am taking it in to account when it tells me to take it in to account. You are suggesting that we must take it in to account at all times, which is not stated by these rules.
If a unit had a Special Rule that allowed it to move like a Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, would you still allow for it to Deep Strike? Your reasoning above says you do.
Would you allow a Librarian with Wings of Sanguinius Pyschic Power, no TDA, no Jump Pack to Deep Strike alone? Your reasoning above says you do.
The rule asks if a unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. We look at the unit type description. If the description includes something that "moves like a Jump unit" then it gets Deep Strike.
It's pretty simple and I am simply adhering to the actual language of the rule. You are not adhering to the actual language of the rule. Your argument is invalid.
Which of these rules is in the rule book?
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
You are applying a rule that is not in the rule book. B is not in the rule book. You are not allowed to do that. A is in the rule book.
col_impact wrote: The rule asks if a unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. We look at the unit type description. If the description includes something that "moves like a Jump unit" then it gets Deep Strike.
It's pretty simple and I am simply adhering to the actual language of the rule. You are not adhering to the actual language of the rule. Your argument is invalid.
Which of these rules is in the rule book?
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
You are applying a rule that is not in the rule book. B is not in the rule book. You are not allowed to do that. A is in the rule book.
You are ignoring what I'm saying. How are FMCs described as moving like during deployment before it deploys?
Charistoph wrote: You are ignoring what I'm saying. How are FMCs described as moving like during deployment?
Their unit type description remains the exact same at all times in the game. Would you like me to point you to the FMC unit type description?
Here is the description of the FMC at all times.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Is a FMCdescribed as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature?
yes or no?
unequivocally YES!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are two logically different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Charistoph wrote: You are ignoring what I'm saying. How are FMCs described as moving like during deployment?
Their unit type description remains the exact same at all times in the game.
I never stated anything about the unit type, but how and when they are described as moving, and that is the central point.
col_impact wrote: Would you like me to point you to the FMC unit type description?
Here is the description of the FMC at all times.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
Is a FMCdescribed as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature?
yes or no?
unequivocally YES!
So, again, your assertion is that if they are described as moving as a jump unit at ANY point, temporary or permanent, it ALWAYS considered a Jump Unit and has all their rules all the time, correct?
Can you provide a rule that supports this assertion? You have yet to quote it.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
You keep repeating the same thing which has zero bearing on my case.
Which rule is it that this always applies, even if the status is temporary and not applying in the circumstance needed?
Because this is what I see:
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
So, I see that when it Moves or Deploys, it is Gliding or Swooping. At which point, it is described as moving like Jump units.
I literally see nothing about its status before it Deploys. And Deep Strike Reserves can only be announced before the unit deploys, i.e. before it is Gliding or Swooping, i.e. before it is described as moving like a Jump unit. I see its status when it deploys, but that is not the same thing. This is RAW, and this is stupid.
You continue to fail to adhere to the actual language and logic in the rule.
The rule is asking if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The rule is not asking if the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
The rule is asking me to check the description of the unit and see if anywhere on that description it is described as X.
I check the FMC unit type description. The rules for Gliding and Swooping are on there. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. The FMC therefore has Deep Strike.
You continue to fail to adhere to the actual language and logic in the rule.
The rule is asking if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The rule is not asking if the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
The rule is asking me to check the description of the unit and see if anywhere on that description it is described as X.
I check the FMC unit type description. The rules for Gliding and Swooping are on there. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. The FMC therefore has Deep Strike.
And so ignoring the case continues.
So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in Assault, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?
Charistoph wrote: [
You are ignoring what I'm saying. How are FMCs described as moving like during deployment before it deploys?
Irrelevant. Nothing "moves" before it deploys, therefore that is moot.
The rule only cares that they are described as moving like Jump. The rules cited often in this thread show the FMC moves like Jump. Swooping or Gliding, it doesn't matter. There is no way a FMC is "described" as moving as anything other than Jump.
You continue to fail to adhere to the actual language and logic in the rule.
The rule is asking if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The rule is not asking if the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
The rule is asking me to check the description of the unit and see if anywhere on that description it is described as X.
I check the FMC unit type description. The rules for Gliding and Swooping are on there. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. The FMC therefore has Deep Strike.
And so ignoring the case continues.
So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in Assault, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
This rule asks me to check a unit type description or ALE description to see if "moves like Jump unit" is on the description. If it is then the unit has the special rules of a Jump unit.
If you have a problem with that you have a problem with the logic that is right there in the actual rules. Since I am sticking with RAW I will stick with the logic that is actually in the rules.
col_impact wrote: This rule asks me to check a unit type description or ALE description to see if "moves like Jump unit" is on the description. If it is then the unit has the special rules of a Jump unit.
If you have a problem with that you have a problem with the logic that is right there in the actual rules. Since I am sticking with RAW I will stick with the logic that is actually in the rules.
And when you check the description you'll note that it does not "moves like a jump unit" , it says "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." and If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. They are not the same thing. You do not get the rule until you satisfy the condition . Why are you ignoring the word if ?
or do i get to just choose words listed in the decription ?
It is described that :
Tank Shock a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.
Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge
can move up to 2D6" straight forwards
does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
are Monstrous Creatures
col_impact wrote: This rule asks me to check a unit type description or ALE description to see if "moves like Jump unit" is on the description. If it is then the unit has the special rules of a Jump unit.
If you have a problem with that you have a problem with the logic that is right there in the actual rules. Since I am sticking with RAW I will stick with the logic that is actually in the rules.
And when you check the description you'll note that it does not "moves like a jump unit" , it says "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." and If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. They are not the same thing. You do not get the rule until you satisfy the condition . Why are you ignoring the word if ?
or do i get to just choose words listed in the decription ?
It is described that :
Tank Shock a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.
Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge
can move up to 2D6" straight forwards
does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
are Monstrous Creatures
The rules are always on the description whether or not they are actively in effect. Since Swoop and Glide is on the unit type description, we can unequivocally assert that an FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
The rule does not ask if the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit. The rule is asking if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Since you fail to see this critical logical distinction your argument is invalid.
col_impact wrote: Since Swoop and Glide is on the unit type description, we can unequivocally assert that an FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit..
and here is the logic fail , since we don't have rules stating this Again , you are giving a condition to receive something and you have not fulfilled the condition
col_impact wrote: Since Swoop and Glide is on the unit type description, we can unequivocally assert that an FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit..
and here is the logic fail , since we don't have rules stating this Again , you are giving a condition to receive something and you have not fulfilled the condition
Here is the rule that has been stated to the umpteenth time . . .
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
There is no condition. "Moves like Jump unit" is either on the FMC unit type description or not. Since it's on the FMC unit type description we have satisfied the rule. FMC are described as "moving like Jump units". Therefore, FMC have Deep Strike.
Is an FMCdescribed as "moving like a jump unit?". Yes, indeed it is.
You keep confusing this question: Is an FMCdescribed as "moving like a jump unit?".
With this question: Is an FMC "moving like a jump unit?".
As long as you keep confusing these very different questions your argument is invalid.
col_impact wrote: There is no condition. "Moves like Jump unit" is either on the FMC unit type description or not. Since it's on the FMC unit type description we have satisfied the rule. FMC are described as "moving like Jump units". Therefore, FMC have Deep Strike.
My rule book doesn't say it "Moves like Jump Unit." It says "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" . They are NOT the same thing , you cannot take a portion of the setence and claim it as the rule. Use the whole thing
col_impact wrote: Is an FMCdescribed as "moving like a jump unit?". Yes, indeed it is.
Again no , it is not described as ]"moving like a jump unit?" . It is described as "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature"
col_impact wrote: You keep confusing this question: Is an FMCdescribed as "moving like a jump unit?".
I'm not confusing anything , it does not say "Move like a jump unit" , it says If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature"
col_impact wrote: As long as you keep confusing these very different questions your argument is invalid.
And for some reason you keep confusing "Moving like jump infantry" with IF XXXXX move like jump infantry"
col_impact wrote: But its not on the FMC unit type description , please quote the entire sentence that contains that , it disproves what you are saying if you do so
But it says it in the description , SEVERAL TIMES that IF XXXXX moves exactly JF. At no point does it say "Moves like jump infantry" Again , quote the entire rule , or at least the rest of the setence to wehre it says that .
You are ignoring what I'm saying. How are FMCs described as moving like during deployment before it deploys?
Irrelevant. Nothing "moves" before it deploys, therefore that is moot.
The rule only cares that they are described as moving like Jump. The rules cited often in this thread show the FMC moves like Jump. Swooping or Gliding, it doesn't matter. There is no way a FMC is "described" as moving as anything other than Jump.
Relevant because of where the the "moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is invoked in the FMC rules.
So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in Assault, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
This rule asks me to check a unit type description or ALE description to see if "moves like Jump unit" is on the description. If it is then the unit has the special rules of a Jump unit.
If you have a problem with that you have a problem with the logic that is right there in the actual rules. Since I am sticking with RAW I will stick with the logic that is actually in the rules.
And so ignoring the case continues.
Answer the question with a proper boolean answer and then provide your reasoning, "So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?"
Charistoph wrote: "So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?"
This is a fictitious case example. Is this the best you can do? LOL.
Unless you can find real case examples, it looks like you have conceded the argument.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description for the FMC unit type and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units". Deep Strike is granted.
Charistoph wrote: "So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?"
This is a fictitious case example. Is this the best you can do? LOL.
Unless you can find real case examples, it looks like you have conceded the argument.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description for the FMC unit type and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units". Deep Strike is granted.
Again , no its not , include the rest of the sentence
Charistoph wrote: "So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?"
This is a fictitious case example. Is this the best you can do? LOL.
Unless you can find real case examples, it looks like you have conceded the argument.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description for the FMC unit type and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units". Deep Strike is granted.
Again , no its not , include the rest of the sentence
Your overly pedantic critique is invalid. Jump monstrous creatures are Jump units.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Charistoph wrote: "So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?"
This is a fictitious case example. Is this the best you can do? LOL.
Unless you can find real case examples, it looks like you have conceded the argument.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description for the FMC unit type and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units". Deep Strike is granted.
Again , no its not , include the rest of the sentence
Your overly pedantic critique is invalid. Jump monstrous creatures are Jump units.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Nice try , now post the rest of the sentence that prove it is "described as moving like jump units" so you can destroy your own argument
kambien wrote: Nice try , now post the rest of the sentence that prove it is "described as moving like jump units" so you can destroy your own argument
If you have some argument to make, feel free to make it.
kambien wrote: Nice try , now post the rest of the sentence that prove it is "described as moving like jump units" so you can destroy your own argument
If you have some argument to make, feel free to make it.
No where in the FMC entry is it described as a jump unit.
Charistoph wrote: "So if Hormagants get a change to Leaping so that they move like Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, you think they can Deep Strike on their own?"
This is a fictitious case example. Is this the best you can do? LOL.
Unless you can find real case examples, it looks like you have conceded the argument.
Hardly. If you cannot answer such a simple question, you cannot properly support your case, and so you are conceding your case. You have not properly answered my case in the last four attempts.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description for the FMC unit type and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units". Deep Strike is granted.
I see it only being described twice and dependent on one of two conditions in this unit type, neither of which are available during deployment until after it is to late for the model to be placed in to Deep Strike Reserves. If it was in a general location of the unit type's rules, as I've mentioned earlier, and not dependent on a state, you would be correct.
However, in order for a FMC to be described as moving as a JMC, it must either be Gliding or Swooping. Neither state can be declared before the model is deployed, and only as it is deployed.
kambien wrote: Nice try , now post the rest of the sentence that prove it is "described as moving like jump units" so you can destroy your own argument
If you have some argument to make, feel free to make it.
No where in the FMC entry is it described as a jump unit.
Again, your overly pedantic critique is invalid and for reasons already stated.
The rule asks if FMC is described as 'moving like' a Jump unit. The unit type description for FMC describes it as moving exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. As already pointed out, a JMC counts as a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: I see it only being described twice and dependent on one of two conditions in this unit type, neither of which are available during deployment until after it is to late for the model to be placed in to Deep Strike Reserves. If it was in a general location of the unit type's rules, as I've mentioned earlier, and not dependent on a state, you would be correct.
However, in order for a FMC to be described as moving as a JMC, it must either be Gliding or Swooping. Neither state can be declared before the model is deployed, and only as it is deployed.
Incorrect. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Since Gliding and/or Swooping are on the description of the FMC unit type, we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument.
Moving "like" jump infantry does not make it jump infantry. Being jump infantry confers the special rule deepstrike along with all the benefits that includes. Being a fmc in glide mode gives it the movement permissions of a jump infantry, not their special rules.
Meaning page 65. Skyborne, movement phase, assault phase and fall back moves.
Edit: "units that are described as "moving like" jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules." The moment it's gliding it has deep strike and bulky apparently.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: Moving "like" jump infantry does not make it jump infantry. Being jump infantry confers the special rule deepstrike along with all the benefits that includes. Being a fmc in glide mode gives it the movement permissions of a jump infantry, not their special rules.
Meaning page 65. Skyborne, movement phase, assault phase and fall back moves.
The rules disagree with you.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: Moving "like" jump infantry does not make it jump infantry. Being jump infantry confers the special rule deepstrike along with all the benefits that includes. Being a fmc in glide mode gives it the movement permissions of a jump infantry, not their special rules.
Meaning page 65. Skyborne, movement phase, assault phase and fall back moves.
The rules disagree with you.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Yup. Read further. Fmc's can all deepstrike and hit the table swooping. That's basically nuts.
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Where ?
Here is where the FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This has already been stated several times in this thread.
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Where ?
Here is where the FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This has already been stated several times in this thread.
see my rules doesn't say that. I'm missing (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump unit ((end sentence ) end pargraph))
All i got is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature. " , Thery are not the same thing
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Where ?
Here is where the FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This has already been stated several times in this thread.
see my rules doesn't say that. I'm missing (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump unit ((end sentence ) end pargraph))
All i got is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature. " , Thery are not the same thing
The rules disagree with you. Jump Monstrous Creatures are considered Jump units and Monstrous Creatures. Please follow the rules.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Where ?
Here is where the FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This has already been stated several times in this thread.
see my rules doesn't say that. I'm missing (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump unit ((end sentence ) end pargraph))
All i got is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature. " , Thery are not the same thing
The rules disagree with you. Jump Monstrous Creatures are considered Jump units and Monstrous Creatures. Please follow the rules.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Way to deflect , now point to the rules that say (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump ((end sentence ) end pargraph)) in the FMC rules
( Hint: It doesn't exists )
Way to deflect , now point to the rules that say (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump ((end sentence ) end pargraph)) in the FMC rules
( Hint: It doesn't exists )
Only you seem to be having problems here. The FMC unit type description obviously describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit (ie. a Jump Monstrous Creature).
Please refrain from posting until you have something substantial to contribute, as per the Forum rules.
At a glance this argument seems to me to be like Preferred Enemy etc. Interacting with 'Blast Weapons and Re-rolls' with the difference being that this rule does not explicitly require a potential condition (in the way BW&R requires an ability that may or may not be engaged)
The whole question is, what mode (if any) is a FMC in while in reserves. And/or when they are arriving from deep strike do they "enter play" before they touch the table. Because you choose flight mode when the model enters play.
if the controlling player can choose, then being in glide mode grants it deep strike, the moment it hits the table from deep strike it counts as swooping.
If it is in no mode (no reason to think this and no precedent for it) it is just a FMC with the basic FMC rules.
Charistoph wrote: I see it only being described twice and dependent on one of two conditions in this unit type, neither of which are available during deployment until after it is to late for the model to be placed in to Deep Strike Reserves. If it was in a general location of the unit type's rules, as I've mentioned earlier, and not dependent on a state, you would be correct.
However, in order for a FMC to be described as moving as a JMC, it must either be Gliding or Swooping. Neither state can be declared before the model is deployed, and only as it is deployed.
Incorrect. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Since Gliding and/or Swooping are on the description of the FMC unit type, we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument.
Actually quite correct. Gliding and Swooping are conditional statuses of the Unit Type in question and are not in play at all times. You are making the assumption that if it can move like a Jump unit at any time, it has the Jump rules all the time. You have not proven this to be the case, nor have you proven that an FMC operates under the Gliding or Swooping status before being deployed, nor have you proven that the FMC's being described as moving like a Jump unit at any point outside Gliding or Swooping.
If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement. If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument
Can you provide any other such case as when a unit moves as a Jump unit during only a specific phase or after a specific point that everyone agrees has the Jump rules all the time?
I've said it numerous times up to this point, but since you cannot actually address my statements nor even properly judge hypotheticals, here is what I've been saying:
Lance845 wrote:The whole question is, what mode (if any) is a FMC in while in reserves. And/or when they are arriving from deep strike do they "enter play" before they touch the table. Because you choose flight mode when the model enters play.
if the controlling player can choose, then being in glide mode grants it deep strike, the moment it hits the table from deep strike it counts as swooping.
If it is in no mode (no reason to think this and no precedent for it) it is just a FMC with the basic FMC rules.
You have not properly addressed this question, col_impact. So, either address it properly, or concede until you can.
Way to deflect , now point to the rules that say (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump ((end sentence ) end pargraph)) in the FMC rules
( Hint: It doesn't exists )
The rules have been cited frequently, you just choose to ignore them.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
FMCs are described as moving like Jump, therefore gain all the rules of such. Nothing more is required to meet the rule.
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Now review that statement, is when it Deep Strikes when it is put in Reserves?
Charistoph wrote: Actually quite correct. Gliding and Swooping are conditional statuses of the Unit Type in question and are not in play at all times. You are making the assumption that if it can move like a Jump unit at any time, it has the Jump rules all the time. You have not proven this to be the case, nor have you proven that an FMC operates under the Gliding or Swooping status before being deployed, nor have you proven that the FMC's being described as moving like a Jump unit at any point outside Gliding or Swooping.
Incorrect. Gliding and Swooping are rules that are always on the unit type description for FMC. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a jump unit which we can plainly verify by looking at the unit type description. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping. You are ignoring the language and logic of the rule itself to keep insisting that the rule cares if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping.
Here are two logically different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Now review that statement, is when it Deep Strikes when it is put in Reserves?
When is the mc "in play"? When it touches the table or as it leaves reserves? The player chooses its flight mode "before it moves". Does it have no flight mode while in reserves? A FMC enters play swooping. If it is swooping AS it enters play then it has the deepstrike rule AS it enters play and can be placed on the table via deepstrike.
Charistoph wrote: Actually quite correct. Gliding and Swooping are conditional statuses of the Unit Type in question and are not in play at all times. You are making the assumption that if it can move like a Jump unit at any time, it has the Jump rules all the time. You have not proven this to be the case, nor have you proven that an FMC operates under the Gliding or Swooping status before being deployed, nor have you proven that the FMC's being described as moving like a Jump unit at any point outside Gliding or Swooping.
Incorrect. Gliding and Swooping are rules that are always on the unit type description for FMC. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a jump unit which we can plainly verify by looking at the unit type description. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping. You are ignoring the language and logic of the rule itself to keep insisting that the rule cares if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping.
Here are two logically different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement.
Your case example is all full of fail.
First, "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." is not a quote that appears anywhere in the Blood Angels codex.
Secondly, psychic blessings do not modify the description of units until they are manifested. You will need to show how the Librarian can manifest Wings of Sanguinius in reserves. The rules don't allow it so the blessing simply isn't modifying any description when it would need to be. This is different of course to the case of Swoop or Glide which are always on the FMC unit type description.
Thirdly, the text of Wings of Sanguinius make no mention of jump.
Spoiler:
6. Wings of Sanguinius…Warp Charge 2
Blood-red wings of psychic energy spring from the back of the Librarian or his allies,
allowing them to soar across the battlefield like avenging angels.
Wings of Sanguinius is a blessing that targets a single friendly Infantry unit within 12".
Unless locked in close combat, the target immediately makes a move of up to 12". This move
cannot end on top of another unit or impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units,
terrain, etc. Any model that starts or ends this move in difficult terrain must take a
Dangerous Terrain test. The target unit cannot charge in the same turn that this power is
used, and all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the
purposes of shooting weapons in the Shooting phase.
So yeah your case example is all full of fail.
So again, please find a real case example this time Charistophe.
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently Swooping or Gliding only that it is described as moving like a Jump unit in its unit type description. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
You are not allowed to ignore the use of 'described as' in the rule.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement.
Your case example is all full of fail.
First, "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." is not a quote that appears anywhere in the Blood Angels codex.
Secondly, psychic blessings do not modify the description of units until they are manifested. You will need to show how the Librarian can manifest Wings of Sanguinius in reserves. The rules don't allow it so the blessing simply isn't modifying any description when it would need to be. This is different of course to the case of Swoop or Glide which are always on the FMC unit type description.
Thirdly, the text of Wings of Sanguinius make no mention of jump.
Spoiler:
6. Wings of Sanguinius…Warp Charge 2
Blood-red wings of psychic energy spring from the back of the Librarian or his allies,
allowing them to soar across the battlefield like avenging angels.
Wings of Sanguinius is a blessing that targets a single friendly Infantry unit within 12".
Unless locked in close combat, the target immediately makes a move of up to 12". This move
cannot end on top of another unit or impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units,
terrain, etc. Any model that starts or ends this move in difficult terrain must take a
Dangerous Terrain test. The target unit cannot charge in the same turn that this power is
used, and all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the
purposes of shooting weapons in the Shooting phase.
So yeah your case example is all full of fail.
So again, please find a real case example this time Charistophe.
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently Swooping or Gliding only that it is described as moving like a Jump unit in its unit type description. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
You are not allowed to ignore the use of 'described as' in the rule.
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
The rule doesn't care. The logic of the rule is expressed with 'described as' which you keep ignoring. Swoop and Glide are on the unit type description for FMC so we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It's really simple. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Actually I just reread the deep strike rule. In order to deep strike the model must start in reserve and you must tell your opponent they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins.
So, do FMC have a flight mode while in reserves? Yes, they can deepstrike. No, they cannot. That's the deciding factor.
Lance845 wrote: Actually I just reread the deep strike rule. In order to deep strike the model must start in reserve and you must tell your opponent they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins.
So, do FMC have a flight mode while in reserves? Yes, they can deepstrike. No, they cannot. That's the deciding factor.
Incorrect. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Take a look at the unit type description for the FMC. On there you will see that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
The rule doesn't care. The logic of the rule is expressed with 'described as' which you keep ignoring. Swoop and Glide are on the unit type description for FMC so we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It's really simple.
No. It doesn't say that. It says a FMC that is swooping/gliding. Not a FMC. It's subject, adverb, rule permissions. The FMC must have the conditional state to gain the rule permissions. A FMC who is neither swooping nor gliding moves like a mc. In reserves does it get to declare a flight mode?
Thread needs locking. I posted both stances on the first page and since then there has been no substantial developments to arguments. Instead, it has basically been a thread on who can shout louder.
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
The rule doesn't care. The logic of the rule is expressed with 'described as' which you keep ignoring. Swoop and Glide are on the unit type description for FMC so we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It's really simple.
No. It doesn't say that. It says a FMC that is swooping/gliding. Not a FMC. It's subject, adverb, rule permissions. The FMC must have the conditional state to gain the rule permissions. A FMC who is neither swooping nor gliding moves like a mc. In reserves does it get to declare a flight mode?
You keep failing to deal with the language and logic of 'described as'. Until you actually deal with the language the rule uses your argument is invalid.
These are two logically very different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Lance845 wrote: The word your missing is "if". As in "IF" a FMC is gliding, it moves etc etc... "IF" a FMC is swooping etc etc...
If makes the flight mode conditional. The FMC is not moving like jump infantry until it is in one of the flight modes.
Again you fail to deal with the language the rule uses which is "described as". You are seeing that the rule contains that phrase, right?
The rule does not care if the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description of the FMC. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
Lance845 wrote: And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
Incorrect. The rule does not care what current state the FMC is in, only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
We check the unit type description and see quite clearly that it is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. That is RAW.
Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Lance845 wrote: And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
Incorrect. The rule does not care what current state the FMC is in, only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
We check the unit type description and see quite clearly that it is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. That is RAW.
A FMC is not described as moving like anything until it is in a flight mode. FMC do not move like jump infantry. A FMC who is gliding does. A FMC who is swooping does. A FMC who is not gliding or swooping is a mc with vector strike and jink.
Lance845 wrote: Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Not relevant to this discussion. The words in the BRB that comprise the unit type description for the FMC are always the same. It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
A FMC is not described as moving like anything until it is in a flight mode. FMC do not move like jump infantry. A FMC who is gliding does. A FMC who is swooping does. A FMC who is not gliding or swooping is a mc with vector strike and jink.
This seems to be what everyone is ignoring. FMCare described as jump units when in swooping or gliding mode, but you're not allowed to choose either before deployment occurs, so it's kind of in a void.
It seems as if RAI lets them DS, but RAW doesn't really give them permission to do so, unless you take the fact that they can only ever move as jump units to mean that they are "described as", even though you're strictly speaking not permitted to enter that state before deep strike.
Lance845 wrote: Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Not relevant to this discussion. The words in the BRB that comprise the unit type description for the FMC are always the same. It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Nope. You don't seem to understand how the word if influences the state of the permissions. I wont be arguing this point with you further. If you have other arguments I would be happy to discuss them.
Lance845 wrote: Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Not relevant to this discussion. The words in the BRB that comprise the unit type description for the FMC are always the same. It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Nope. You don't seem to understand how the word if influences the state of the permissions. I wont be arguing this point with you further. If you have other arguments I would be happy to discuss them.
That's fine.
It will be noted that you fail to distinguish between these two logically very different rule statements . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Since you fail to adhere to the actual language and logic in the rule itself, your argument is invalid.
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Now review that statement, is when it Deep Strikes when it is put in Reserves?
When is the mc "in play"? When it touches the table or as it leaves reserves? The player chooses its flight mode "before it moves". Does it have no flight mode while in reserves? A FMC enters play swooping. If it is swooping AS it enters play then it has the deepstrike rule AS it enters play and can be placed on the table via deepstrike.
The problem is that Deep Strike Reserves is declared before any deploying or movement of the FMC in question can be performed. The rules for Flight Modes do not provide us access until the model is deployed or deploying, which is after the model may be put in Deep Strike Reserves.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement.
Your case example is all full of fail.
First, "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." is not a quote that appears anywhere in the Blood Angels codex.
Sure it is, 5th Edition Codex. Your search-fu is under fail. I referenced it before, please keep up.
col_impact wrote:Secondly, psychic blessings do not modify the description of units until they are manifested. You will need to show how the Librarian can manifest Wings of Sanguinius in reserves. The rules don't allow it so the blessing simply isn't modifying any description when it would need to be. This is different of course to the case of Swoop or Glide which are always on the FMC unit type description.
Correct. The conditions of the modification must be manifested before they are applied.
When is an FMC noted as being in either Glide Mode or Swooping Mode? Never until they are deployed or deploying, and then during the Movement Phase after that. We are not granted permission to apply this description of movement at any point before the model is deployed.
col_impact wrote:So again, please find a real case example this time Charistophe.
Find one yourself, I have already challenged you to. You have yet to do so, I provided a historical case and a hypothetical. I cannot think of any current case outside of the FMC/GMC that would apply at this current time, but I don't review the codices like I used to.
col_impact wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently Swooping or Gliding only that it is described as moving like a Jump unit in its unit type description. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
...
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
You are not allowed to ignore the use of 'described as' in the rule.
And you are not allowed to ignore Deployment or Flight Modes rules, either, but you continuously are.
col_impact wrote:
Lance845 wrote: And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
Incorrect. The rule does not care what current state the FMC is in, only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
We check the unit type description and see quite clearly that it is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. That is RAW.
Actually, the STATES care, because if the FMC is not in either state, it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
Temporary states do not continue beyond the scope of their rules. You have already stated that Pyschic Powers cannot do this, why do you insist Special Rules with triggers not fall under the same responsibility?
A FMC is not described as moving like anything until it is in a flight mode. FMC do not move like jump infantry. A FMC who is gliding does. A FMC who is swooping does. A FMC who is not gliding or swooping is a mc with vector strike and jink.
This seems to be what everyone is ignoring. FMCare described as jump units when in swooping or gliding mode, but you're not allowed to choose either before deployment occurs, so it's kind of in a void.
.
Incorrect. They are always described as moving like Jump units. Glide and Swoop are on the FMC description and a unit type description is a static page in the BRB. However, they are of course not always currently moving like Jump units, but that is not what the rule cares about. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like Jump units. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
When is an FMC noted as being in either Glide Mode or Swooping Mode? Never until they are deployed or deploying, and then during the Movement Phase after that. We are not granted permission to apply this description of movement at any point before the model is deployed.
Incorrect. You are failing to adhere to the language and logic that the rule uses. The rule only cares that "moves like a Jump unit" is on the description and it does not care when that movement applies. Glide and Swoop are always on the physical page of the BRB where the FMC unit type is described. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Just check the unit type description for FMC. The rules don't care what state the FMC is currently in.
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Just check the unit type description for FMC. The rules don't care what state the FMC is currently in.
I'd say this is an assumption, the rulebook never explicitly and unambiguously states that this is how it works. That is the core of the problem, as far as I can tell there is no pure RAW answer to this.
HIWPI is assume that your interpretation is correct as that seems to be RAI, but if we're simply looking at RAW from a nitpicking technical perspective, both sides have valid arguments.
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Just check the unit type description for FMC. The rules don't care what state the FMC is currently in.
I'd say this is an assumption, the rulebook never explicitly and unambiguously states that this is how it works. That is the core of the problem, as far as I can tell there is no pure RAW answer to this.
HIWPI is assume that your interpretation is correct as that seems to be RAI, but if we're simply looking at RAW from a nitpicking technical perspective, both sides have valid arguments.
It's not an assumption. My argument is backed by the rules.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
Also my argument is the only one that deals with the actual language and logic in the rule itself. So I am the only one that can claim RAW.
Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
Frozocrone wrote: Thread needs locking. I posted both stances on the first page and since then there has been no substantial developments to arguments. Instead, it has basically been a thread on who can shout louder.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A and B are logically very different however and only one of them is in the actual rule book.
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Things can only be described at "moving like Jump" when they actually move. Claiming they cannot move in Reserves is irrelevant because nothing can move in Reserves. Models "move" when they are on the table.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A and B are logically very different however and only one of them is in the actual rule book.
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
please stop repeating this. no-one is saying B is in the rules. they are saying A fails the check until the unit has declared a flight mode.
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
This has basically been the entire thread.
It's an interesting discussion, but so far it's mostly just been yelling. My goal was to try and get people to acknowledge the other side of the argument in order to try and make some progress on this, but so far it's not worked well.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A and B are logically very different however and only one of them is in the actual rule book.
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
please stop repeating this. no-one is saying B is in the rules. they are saying A fails the check until the unit has declared a flight mode.
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
A cannot fail the check. A is only checking to see if something is on the unit type description. Glide and Swoop are always on the unit type description. The FMC is indeed found to be described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
Actually it does adhere to the language of the rules involved with describing the FMC moving like a Jump MC. You've quoted and ignored it at least six times now.
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
Actually it does adhere to the language of the rules involved with describing the FMC moving like a Jump MC. You've quoted and ignored it at least six times now.
Cool, so then you agree that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. That means the FMC has Deep Strike.
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
This has basically been the entire thread.
It's an interesting discussion, but so far it's mostly just been yelling. My goal was to try and get people to acknowledge the other side of the argument in order to try and make some progress on this, but so far it's not worked well.
I appreciate the discussion. I started on one side thinking they all could until I re-read everything. It seems to be very clear when and under what circumstances the rules apply. The issue isn't even that upon leaving deep strike reserve it would enter a mode. The issue is it needs the rule before the game even begins so that it can be declared to the opponent that the FMC would be arriving via deepstrike. The model needs the rule before the game begins. Nothing grants the model a flight mode from reserve at that stage.
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
This has basically been the entire thread.
It's an interesting discussion, but so far it's mostly just been yelling. My goal was to try and get people to acknowledge the other side of the argument in order to try and make some progress on this, but so far it's not worked well.
I appreciate the discussion. I started on one side thinking they all could until I re-read everything. It seems to be very clear when and under what circumstances the rules apply. The issue isn't even that upon leaving deep strike reserve it would enter a mode. The issue is it needs the rule before the game even begins so that it can be declared to the opponent that the FMC would be arriving via deepstrike. The model needs the rule before the game begins. Nothing grants the model a flight mode from reserve at that stage.
The Swoop and Glide rules are on the unit type description. Therefore they are always descriptive of the FMC even while not actually in effect. The rules only care if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit not whether it is currently moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them
We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
Lance845 wrote: Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
I am the only one who has a RAW argument and understands what "described as" logically means.
Lance845 wrote: Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
I am the only one who has a RAW argument and understands what "described as" logically means.
Lance845 wrote: Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
I am the only one who has a RAW argument and understands what "described as" logically means.
actually i don't believe you do.
You can believe what you want but the rules that back my argument believe otherwise.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The rule only asks if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It does not ask whether or not the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
This rule tells us to look at the FMC unit type section for where the FMC is described.
Here is the FMC unit type description . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
In that description, the FMC are described as moving like Jump MC.
The rules tell us that Jump MC count as Jump units and MC.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
It can be unequivocally asserted that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Kambien his point is that because, in the FMC description, under some circumstances they are described as moving like jump mc that they are always treated as jump mc. It doesn't matter that they are jump mc only some of the time. Being described as jump at ANY time means you gain all the benefits of jump ALL the time.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
Actually it does adhere to the language of the rules involved with describing the FMC moving like a Jump MC. You've quoted and ignored it at least six times now.
Cool, so then you agree that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. That means the FMC has Deep Strike.
That has never really actually been in doubt, the problem is WHEN it is described as moving like a Jump unit and thus gains Deep Strike.
Let's look at the rules you keep quoting and ignoring:
col_impact wrote:Here is the FMC unit type description . . .
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are essentially ferocious living aircraft. Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn. A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
It can be unequivocally asserted that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.
Wat?
Incorrect. You fail at reading comprehension. Glide and Swoop are rules that are always on the unit type description even though the FMC may not be currently gliding or swooping. You simply have to open your rule book and see that those rules are on there. According to the rules, its the Unit Types section that describes the units that make up 40k. The rule that grants Deep Strike to the FMC only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.
Wat?
Incorrect. You fail at reading comprehension. Glide and Swoop are rules that are always on the unit type description even though the FMC may not be currently gliding or swooping. You simply have to open your rule book and see that those rules are on there. According to the rules, its the Unit Types section that describes the units that make up 40k. The rule that grants Deep Strike to the FMC only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
False. The exact quote... The direct rule.... The raw is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." The word if makes it so that the FMC, when not gliding, is not described as doing that. And therefore it is not always described as doing that. There fore not getting those rules when not doing that.
False. The exact quote... The direct rule.... The raw is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." The word if makes it so that the FMC, when not gliding, is not described as doing that. And therefore it is not always described as doing that. There fore not getting those rules when not doing that.
Incorrect. The rules tell us that its the Unit Type section that describes the FMC unit.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
The Glide (or Swoop) rule is always on the unit type description for the FMC and so is always part of the description and describes the FMC as part of the Unit Type description. The conditional determines when the rule is in effect or comes into play, not when it is part of the description. The Glide rule is always on the page of the BRB that describes the FMC and always describes the FMC.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The rules only care that the FMC unit is described as moving like a Jump unit, not whether or not the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit or whether or not Glide or Swoop are currently in effect.
When we look at the unit type description for the FMC, we can see that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore, the FMC has Deep Strike.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
Actually, I CAN assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping because those are the only places it is mentioned in the Unit Type. I just demonstrated that. Or are you saying that because a Jump unit can ignore intervening terrain during one Phase, it can ignore them in every Phase? If they use their Jump Packs in the Movement Phase, do they still get Hammer of Wrath on the Charge (and I'm not counting Raven Guard and similar)?
The FMC rules do NOT describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. If you truly believe such, please quote the FMC unit type rules again and highlight every single instance where it describes the FMC moving like a Jump MC. Also highlight where it says the FMC is using Glide and Swoop. Because this is as close as you'll get to proving your case.
Actually, I CAN assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping because those are the only places it is mentioned in the Unit Type. I just demonstrated that. Or are you saying that because a Jump unit can ignore intervening terrain during one Phase, it can ignore them in every Phase? If they use their Jump Packs in the Movement Phase, do they still get Hammer of Wrath on the Charge (and I'm not counting Raven Guard and similar)?
The FMC rules do NOT describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. If you truly believe such, please quote the FMC unit type rules again and highlight every single instance where it describes the FMC moving like a Jump MC. Also highlight where it says the FMC is using Glide and Swoop. Because this is as close as you'll get to proving your case.
You keep failing at dealing with the language and logic of the rule. The rule uses "described as". To satisfy the rule something needs to only be on the description of the unit.
Whether or not the FMC is gliding or swooping, the Gliding or Swooping rules still describe the FMC. The Gliding or Swooping rules are always on the Unit Type description - the words for those rules never disappear from the pages of the unit type description where the FMC is described.
The rules only care that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. They do not care whether the current status of the FMC is Gliding or Swooping or whether the Gliding or Swooping rules are actually in effect. Since the Gliding or Swooping rules are on the Unit Type description for the FMC - where the rules tell us that units are described - we know for sure that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
Lance845 wrote: You are putting the em-PHA-sis on the wrong sy-LA-ble, I mean word in the sentence. If is the word you are ignoring.
Nope, I am adhering strictly to the language and logic in the rule itself. The rule says "described as". Your argument is invalid since you ignore the language and logic in the rule itself.
col_impact, by your reasoning then is a basic Tau Commander Jet Pack Infantry but also follows all the rules for Jump units and uses the same special rules?
It has the option of taking an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit, which if taken changes its unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) so by your reasoning, even if it does not choose to take the upgrade, it is described as moving like a Jump unit by virtue of potentially being a FMC and so gains all the appropriate rules, then?
Mr. Shine wrote: col_impact, by your reasoning then is a basic Tau Commander Jet Pack Infantry but also follows all the rules for Jump units and uses the same special rules?
It has the option of taking an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit, which if taken changes its unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) so by your reasoning, even if it does not choose to take the upgrade, it is described as moving like a Jump unit by virtue of potentially being a FMC and so gains all the appropriate rules, then?
Upgrades or options have to be purchased or selected to become part of a unit's description. The options add descriptions or replace descriptions. That's how ALE work.
Are Swooping or Gliding optional upgrades for Flying Monstrous Creatures? Nope.
col_impact wrote: If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.
If you select the Swooping or Gliding flight move then it is the unit's description. If you don't (or more relevantly cannot) then it is not.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Note that the rule doesn't ask that the unit have the description as part of their unit type description, but that they are described as 'moving like' Jump units.
A Flying Monstrous Creature is only described as moving line a Jump unit when Swooping or Gliding.
col_impact wrote: If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.
If you select the Swooping or Gliding flight move then it is part of the unit description. If you don't (or more relevantly cannot) then it is not.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Incorrect. Gliding or Swooping rules are always on the Unit Type description by definition. There is no option for taking them off the FMC unit type description.
Try again? Next time, adhere to the actual language and logic in the rules themselves.
col_impact wrote: If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.
If you select the Swooping or Gliding flight move then it is the unit's description. If you don't (or more relevantly cannot) then it is not.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Note that the rule doesn't ask that the unit have the description as part of their unit type description, but that they are described as 'moving like' Jump units.
A Flying Monstrous Creature is only described as moving line a Jump unit when Swooping or Gliding.
Incorrect. A FMC is only moving like a Jump unit when swooping or gliding.
However, a FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit. Its description is static and independent of its current state which could be gliding or swooping. Whether or not the FMC is currently gliding or swooping, the Gliding or Swooping rule is on its description and describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.
We know that the FMC is unequivocally described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Page 13 brb. Basic vs advanced. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm, or even a tank).
The jump unit describes how a unit that is described as being like a jump unit confers it's special rules onto the unit. But more specifically the FMC listing has conditional statements to those rules conferring. The FMC must be gliding to move like a jump mc. The fmc must be swooping to be moving like a jump mc. The more specific FMC entry trumps the broader more generic jump entry, if for no other reason then it's entry is specifically about fmcs and the jump entry rule you are relying on is about nobody in particular.
Lance845 wrote: Page 13 brb. Basic vs advanced. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm, or even a tank).
The jump unit describes how a unit that is described as being like a jump unit confers it's special rules onto the unit. But more specifically the FMC listing has conditional statements to those rules conferring. The FMC must be gliding to move like a jump mc. The fmc must be swooping to be moving like a jump mc. The more specific FMC entry trumps the broader more generic jump entry, if for no other reason then it's entry is specifically about fmcs and the jump entry rule you are relying on is about nobody in particular.
You are wrongly applying Basic vs Advanced.
Just apply the rule and adhere to the language and logic in the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
And please make careful note that the rule is not written like this . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Again, the rule you are quoting is the basic to the FMC advanced. The FMC states that the FMC mud be doing something to be described as moving like a jump mc. The more advanced and more specific rule overrides the less specific.
Lance845 wrote: Again, the rule you are quoting is the basic to the FMC advanced. The FMC states that the FMC mud be doing something to be described as moving like a jump mc. The more advanced and more specific rule overrides the less specific.
Again, you are wrongly applying Basic vs Advanced.
The rule simply asks if a unit is described as moving like a Jump unit. In the case of the FMC yes it is - you just look at the unit type description for FMC. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
My only issue is that a FMC has a list of special rules that are granted by being FMC and are listed, Jink and Vector Strike.
If they had wanted it to have the deepstike capability they could have easily tightened the whole thing up by adding a comma and writing, as they did for Angelic Wing in the BA codex, that it also gains jump.
OIIIIIIO wrote: My only issue is that a FMC has a list of special rules that are granted by being FMC and are listed, Jink and Vector Strike.
If they had wanted it to have the deepstike capability they could have easily tightened the whole thing up by adding a comma and writing, as they did for Angelic Wing in the BA codex, that it also gains jump.
Likewise they could have just made the first sentence of the entry "flying monstrous creatures are jump monstrous creatures that have a number of additional rules."
Actually, I CAN assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping because those are the only places it is mentioned in the Unit Type. I just demonstrated that. Or are you saying that because a Jump unit can ignore intervening terrain during one Phase, it can ignore them in every Phase? If they use their Jump Packs in the Movement Phase, do they still get Hammer of Wrath on the Charge (and I'm not counting Raven Guard and similar)?
The FMC rules do NOT describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. If you truly believe such, please quote the FMC unit type rules again and highlight every single instance where it describes the FMC moving like a Jump MC. Also highlight where it says the FMC is using Glide and Swoop. Because this is as close as you'll get to proving your case.
You keep failing at dealing with the language and logic of the rule. The rule uses "described as". To satisfy the rule something needs to only be on the description of the unit.
I do not keep failing. You keep ignoring the entire context of the whole unit type and all their rules taken together. You only take two sentences from the specific unit type in question and one sentence from the referenced unit type, while ignoring everything else connected to those sentences in the unit type's rules. You keep failing at dealing with the language and logic of these rules. In fact, you do not address these rules at all, not even to refute them.
I also note that you did not take up any of my challenges, save one. Scared of finding more proof against your assertions like the one?
col_impact wrote:Whether or not the FMC is gliding or swooping, the Gliding or Swooping rules still describe the FMC. The Gliding or Swooping rules are always on the Unit Type description - the words for those rules never disappear from the pages of the unit type description where the FMC is described.
Being present in the unit type is not the issue, it is when the unit type can access this rule that is the issue and you have not properly addressed. Remember your statement regarding the Psychic Power that granted Jump Movement? There is no difference in this case.
col_impact wrote:The rules only care that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. They do not care whether the current status of the FMC is Gliding or Swooping or whether the Gliding or Swooping rules are actually in effect. Since the Gliding or Swooping rules are on the Unit Type description for the FMC - where the rules tell us that units are described - we know for sure that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
Incorrect. If a model has to trigger a rule to use it, it cannot receive any benefit from it before it gets triggered. The Jump rules do not change this standard. And FMCs must deploy in order to use Gliding or Swooping. The Unit Type's rules do not allow for anything else. A FMC does not state it always Glides or Swooping.
OIIIIIIO wrote:My only issue is that a FMC has a list of special rules that are granted by being FMC and are listed, Jink and Vector Strike.
If they had wanted it to have the deepstike capability they could have easily tightened the whole thing up by adding a comma and writing, as they did for Angelic Wing in the BA codex, that it also gains jump.
Indeed, or just where it states that a FMC is a Monstrous Creature it instead that a FMC is a JUMP Monstrous Creature, it would save a huge headache.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.
Wat?
Incorrect. You fail at reading comprehension. Glide and Swoop are rules that are always on the unit type description even though the FMC may not be currently gliding or swooping. You simply have to open your rule book and see that those rules are on there. According to the rules, its the Unit Types section that describes the units that make up 40k. The rule that grants Deep Strike to the FMC only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
False. The exact quote... The direct rule.... The raw is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." The word if makes it so that the FMC, when not gliding, is not described as doing that. And therefore it is not always described as doing that. There fore not getting those rules when not doing that.
And how does a FMC move during the movement phase?
That is dependent on the mode selected at the beginning of it's move.
And no matter which mode you select, it moves like a Jump MC, correct ?
Nope. Glide I exactly like a jump mc. Swoop has a list of exceptions.
Is the FMC moving before deployment?
Again deployment is irrelevant. Something can only be described as moving like something else when it is moving which is during the movement phase. Both gliding and swooping are described as moving like jump. Therefore it gains the rules.
Fragile wrote: Again deployment is irrelevant. Something can only be described as moving like something else when it is moving which is during the movement phase. Both gliding and swooping are described as moving like jump. Therefore it gains the rules.
It is relevant since the FMC does not gain access to use the Gliding and Swooping rules until after they Deploy. There is no rule stating that they are always Gliding or Swooping. These are granted when deploying and altered in the Movement Phase.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
When a FMC moves, it can only move in swoop or glide mode, it can never move and not use one of those two modes and both modes are described as jump.
Can someone point out to me where this third moving option exists that state a FMC is not acting like a Jump MC when it moves? I can't find it. And don't say doing nothing, because that is not the act of moving, because if it was, it would still need to declare a mode (of which glide has permission to do nothing) before it could declare nothing.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
When a FMC moves, it can only move in swoop or glide mode, it can never move and not use one of those two modes and both modes are described as jump.
Can someone point out to me where this third moving option exists that state a FMC is not acting like a Jump MC when it moves? I can't find it. And don't say doing nothing, because that is not the act of moving, because if it was, it would still need to declare a mode (of which glide has permission to do nothing) before it could declare nothing.
And when is this requirement?
Read Deployment, when does the FMC gain Gliding or Swooping?
Again, this is simply RAW and simply stupid, there are better ways of translating this concept through for an "always" on JMC status.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
When a FMC moves, it can only move in swoop or glide mode, it can never move and not use one of those two modes and both modes are described as jump.
Can someone point out to me where this third moving option exists that state a FMC is not acting like a Jump MC when it moves? I can't find it. And don't say doing nothing, because that is not the act of moving, because if it was, it would still need to declare a mode (of which glide has permission to do nothing) before it could declare nothing.
You said it yourself ... it can only move and the movement is what grants the FMC jump status. It does not have that status until it is deployed. Without that status, it is not a jump unit, without jump, it is not able to be put into DSR.
Lusiphur wrote: So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.
There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.
Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?
All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.
Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.
What is trying to be conveyed here is that they are Jump when they move or are deployed. Prior to that they are not. If they were intended to be considered Jump for all purposes they would have the Jump rule. They do not ... they only have it when they are deployed or are moving. There is a difference, not much to be sure, but there is a difference.
Before the game start it can be said that the FMC moves like a jump. It doesn't gain these abilities during the movement phase or during deployment, it ALWAYS has them, there is never a time when the FMC does not have the ability to glide or swoop during it's movement. Now it can only use one at a time, hence the IF portion of those rules, but it always has both (and only those two choices) available to it.
Just because you choose which of the two use during the movement phase (or deployment) doesn't mean they are not there before you make the choice. The FMC has wings even before it decides to glide or swoop with them.
OIIIIIIO wrote: What is trying to be conveyed here is that they are Jump when they move or are deployed. Prior to that they are not. If they were intended to be considered Jump for all purposes they would have the Jump rule. They do not ... they only have it when they are deployed or are moving. There is a difference, not much to be sure, but there is a difference.
Indeed.
As stated before, this is also very stupid and a waste of the writer's time. It would have been easier to exclude the Deep Strike rule from the Jump Monstrous Creature than create such a weird setup if that was the Intent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lusiphur wrote: Before the game start it can be said that the FMC moves like a jump.
Where is it said that so it can be said?
Lusiphur wrote: It doesn't gain these abilities during the movement phase or during deployment, it ALWAYS has them, there is never a time when the FMC does not have the ability to glide or swoop during it's movement. Now it can only use one at a time, hence the IF portion of those rules, but it always has both (and only those two choices) available to it.
Actually, that is not what those rules state, though. It does not state that the FMC is always Gliding or Swooping. It states during different types of deploying that it is under those states.
Lusiphur wrote: Just because you choose which of the two use during the movement phase (or deployment) doesn't mean they are not there before you make the choice. The FMC has wings even before it decides to glide or swoop with them.
The problem is that there is nothing to state that they ARE there and in force before you deploy the FMC, and that is the critical dysfunction.
It's not true though. A fmcs default move before anything else is applied is that of a mc. It says it in the first sentence of it's entry.
The conditional statements apply very specific circumstances for when that changes. Just because the total conditional states cover the vast majority of the games does not mean they apply during 100% of the game. During the very small window when deepstrike is possible the FMC moves like a mc.
The FMC is only allowed to move with two methods even before deployment. Swoop or glide. There is no default but unused method of movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean how does an Assault Marine have access to his USRs if he isn't allowed to chose to activate his jump pack until he moves either.
Lusiphur wrote: The FMC is only allowed to move with two methods even before deployment. Swoop or glide. There is no default but unused method of movement.
This is incorrect. By default, the FMC is an MC first. It CAN move by Gliding or Swooping. It does not have allowance to use either Gliding or Swooping until the model deploys, though.
I mean how does an Assault Marine have access to his USRs if he isn't allowed to chose to activate his jump pack until he moves either.
Because he IS that unit type.
The FMC only gains access to it by activating its Flight Modes. When not using or without access to a Flight Mode, it is not described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature, just a basic Monstrous Creature.
Lusiphur wrote: The FMC is only allowed to move with two methods even before deployment. Swoop or glide. There is no default but unused method of movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean how does an Assault Marine have access to his USRs if he isn't allowed to chose to activate his jump pack until he moves either.
An assault marine is a jump infantry. That is what he is. He gets all the rules a jump infantry gets. A fmcs default movement permissions are that of a mc. Which is that of an infantry with bonus special rules. 6 inches. The FMC has access to 2 flight modes at specific times and durring specific circumstances. While in a flight mode it gains all the benefits of jump.
If a mc is not in either flight mode (which is the case before deployment, what are it's movement permissions. "a FMC is a mc with additional rules" 6 inches with move through cover.
Lance845 wrote: It's not true though. A fmcs default move before anything else is applied is that of a mc. It says it in the first sentence of it's entry.
The conditional statements apply very specific circumstances for when that changes. Just because the total conditional states cover the vast majority of the games does not mean they apply during 100% of the game. During the very small window when deepstrike is possible the FMC moves like a mc.
All of that is wholly irrelevant.
The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that it is currently moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The rules tell us to look at the Unit Types section of the BRB which describes the units of 40k.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
So we look at the unit type description for the FMC and we can plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like Jump Monstrous Creature which is equivalent to moving like a Jump unit, per this rule.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The rules are satisfied. Deep Strike is granted.
Lance845 wrote: It's not true though. A fmcs default move before anything else is applied is that of a mc. It says it in the first sentence of it's entry.
The conditional statements apply very specific circumstances for when that changes. Just because the total conditional states cover the vast majority of the games does not mean they apply during 100% of the game. During the very small window when deepstrike is possible the FMC moves like a mc.
All of that is wholly irrelevant.
The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that it is currently moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The rules tell us to look at the Unit Types section of the BRB which describes the units of 40k.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
So we look at the unit type description for the FMC and we can plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like Jump Monstrous Creature which is equivalent to moving like a Jump unit, per this rule.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The rules are satisfied. Deep Strike is granted.
And so a unit that has a rule that they can move like a Jump Infantry only in the Assault Phase can instead move like Jump Infantry all the time and Deep Strike? When a Special Rule is available has no bearing and is irrelevant?
A Skyhammer Devastator will be Relentless all game at that point. Jump Units will have Hammer of Wrath even if they do not use their Jump Packs to Charge. I can Infiltrate my Infiltrators at any point in the game. I can Veil of Darkness my Deathmarks and they can use Ethereal Interception and Hunters from Hyperspace all at the same time!
Please tell me you have some sense of the temporal nature of the rules?
You still have yet to properly address most of the challenges presented to you. You also keep ignoring a good portion of the FMC's rules. Scared?
Also, you REALLY need to learn how to edit your copy & paste. It really takes up unnecessary space.
A FMC is not a MC that transforms into a FMC during the movement phase. It is always a FMC even during deployment, therefore it is never allowed to move in any fashion during the movement phase as anything other then a FMC can and both modes are described as using the jump rules.
And since all that is needed to access all the rules for jump is to be described as using the jump rules for it's movement it gains all the rules for jump prior to deployment
And so a unit that has a rule that they can move like a Jump Infantry only in the Assault Phase can instead move like Jump Infantry all the time and Deep Strike? When a Special Rule is available has no bearing and is irrelevant?
A Skyhammer Devastator will be Relentless all game at that point. Jump Units will have Hammer of Wrath even if they do not use their Jump Packs to Charge. I can Infiltrate my Infiltrators at any point in the game. I can Veil of Darkness my Deathmarks and they can use Ethereal Interception and Hunters from Hyperspace all at the same time!
Please tell me you have some sense of the temporal nature of the rules?
You still have yet to properly address most of the challenges presented to you. You also keep ignoring a good portion of the FMC's rules. Scared?
Also, you REALLY need to learn how to edit your copy & paste. It really takes up unnecessary space.
None of your Chicken Little arguments are relevant to a RAW discussion. In a RAW discussion we deal with the rules as they are written.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. You are not allowed to change the rule into something that cares about temporality. You are not allowed to change the rule to say this . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
You keep changing the rule and when you do so your argument becomes wholly invalid from a RAW standpoint. I take the rule exactly as it is written and do not change it. That's why I have RAW support and you don't.
Also no amount of Chicken Little argumentation can make your counter-argument valid. The rules are what they are so deal with it. No amount of fabricating erroneous and irrelevant issues will get around dealing with how the rules are written. The rule has nothing to do with Relentless, Infiltrate, or Veil of Darkness. The sky is not falling so quit running around exclaiming the sky is falling as if it helps your invalid argument.
The rules are very clear about where to look for where the BRB describes a unit type. My argument has all the RAW support. Your counter-argument has no RAW support. You ignore the language and logic of the rule itself and are resorting to Chicken Little argumentation which can only be interpreted as a concession on your part that my argument has uncontested RAW support. You have yet to even come up with a real case example that counters my argument.
I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.
FlingitNow wrote: I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.
FlingitNow wrote: I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.
Which mode is a FMC in before deployment?
Not relevant. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. You keep thinking the rule is asking if the FMC is moving like a Jump unit. That's not what the rule says.
Lusiphur wrote: So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.
There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.
Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?
All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.
Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.
Show a rule that requires them to move before deployment. No model can. Show a rule that requires a model to move to be put in reserves. Show a rule that requires a model to be able to move to be put in reserves. None of these things matter.
Your argument is completely moot because you fail to address the issue. The model is required to be described as moving like jump WHEN IT MOVES. Movement only happens in the MOVEMENT Phase. Not in deployment, nor in reserves. FMC's meet all the criteria for the rule, until you can find someway that they are described as not moving like jump.
40k writes its rules using a method called permission based game play.
That means that every single rule in 40k is expressed by a if/than statement. If infantry than move 6" during movement, shoot one gun during shooting et etc...
Now. A couple quick definitions.
if
conjunction
1.
in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:
than/T͟Han,T͟Hən/
conjunction preposition
1.introducing the second element in a comparison.
2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.
Now lets look at the fmcs permissions.
A FMC is a mc with a number of additional rule.
If FMC than mc plus vector strike, jink, deploying at the start of the game places it in glide mode. Enter play from reserves requires you to declare flight mode. Arriving via deepstrike must be swooping.
Or
If FMC than mc plus jink and vs.
-if deployed than glide
-if arriving from reserves than declare.
-if ds than swoop.
If gliding than emulates jump
If swoop than emulates jump plus exceptions
Or, on condition that FMC is gliding than
(2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.)
Moves like jump. Until the condition is met the FMC is not described as doing anything. In fact. It is described very definitively as a mc with vector strike and jink that gains conditional states upon deployment and upon entering the field.
Deep strike.
Unit must be placed in reserves before the game and you must declare to your opponent that it will arrive via ds.
If ds than reserves plus declaration.
If a model does not have the ds rule it does not have permission to do this. Does a FMC have permission to do this before the game starts? No. It's permissions that grant ds are conditional on it being in 1 of 2 flight modes which it does not have permission to enter before the game starts.
40k writes its rules using a method called permission based game play.
That means that every single rule in 40k is expressed by a if/than statement. If infantry than move 6" during movement, shoot one gun during shooting et etc...
Now. A couple quick definitions.
if
conjunction
1.
in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:
than/T͟Han,T͟Hən/
conjunction preposition
1.introducing the second element in a comparison.
2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.
Now lets look at the fmcs permissions.
A FMC is a mc with a number of additional rule.
If FMC than mc plus vector strike, jink, deploying at the start of the game places it in glide mode. Enter play from reserves requires you to declare flight mode. Arriving via deepstrike must be swooping.
Or
If FMC than mc plus jink and vs.
-if deployed than glide
-if arriving from reserves than declare.
-if ds than swoop.
If gliding than emulates jump
If swoop than emulates jump plus exceptions
Or, on condition that FMC is gliding than
(2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.)
Moves like jump. Until the condition is met the FMC is not described as doing anything. In fact. It is described very definitively as a mc with vector strike and jink that gains conditional states upon deployment and upon entering the field.
Deep strike.
Unit must be placed in reserves before the game and you must declare to your opponent that it will arrive via ds.
If ds than reserves plus declaration.
If a model does not have the ds rule it does not have permission to do this. Does a FMC have permission to do this before the game starts? No. It's permissions that grant ds are conditional on it being in 1 of 2 flight modes which it does not have permission to enter before the game starts.
Your whole post is not relevant.
The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. We follow the rules that tell us the Unit Types section describes the units of 40k and look at the unit type for description and plainly see that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. We have followed the rules as they are written.
You keep thinking the rule is asking if the FMC is moving like a Jump unit. That's not what the rule says. You need to follow the rules as they are written or else your argument remains invalid.
Lusiphur wrote: So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.
There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.
Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?
All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.
Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.
Show a rule that requires them to move before deployment. No model can. Show a rule that requires a model to move to be put in reserves. Show a rule that requires a model to be able to move to be put in reserves. None of these things matter.
Your argument is completely moot because you fail to address the issue. The model is required to be described as moving like jump WHEN IT MOVES. Movement only happens in the MOVEMENT Phase. Not in deployment, nor in reserves. FMC's meet all the criteria for the rule, until you can find someway that they are described as not moving like jump.
This is all correct. Except that ... Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment. Like say... Wings on a ht.
The ht is a mc. Purchasing wings changes it to a FMC. Upon purchasing them before the game it gains new deployment rules.
If a tac marine could purchase a jump pack as part of its equipment before the game it would gain all those permissions at a time that would be relevant to deep striking.
The FMC has permission to enter a state that grants those permissions. It does not itself have those permissions. A fmc cannot ds. A FMC who is gliding can. You would need to be able to put the FMC into a specific flight mode before the game begins to grant the permissions. Nothing allows you to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true.
FlingitNow wrote: I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.
40k writes its rules using a method called permission based game play.
That means that every single rule in 40k is expressed by a if/than statement. If infantry than move 6" during movement, shoot one gun during shooting et etc...
Now. A couple quick definitions.
if
conjunction
1.
in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:
than/T͟Han,T͟Hən/
conjunction preposition
1.introducing the second element in a comparison.
2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.
Now lets look at the fmcs permissions.
A FMC is a mc with a number of additional rule.
If FMC than mc plus vector strike, jink, deploying at the start of the game places it in glide mode. Enter play from reserves requires you to declare flight mode. Arriving via deepstrike must be swooping.
Or
If FMC than mc plus jink and vs.
-if deployed than glide
-if arriving from reserves than declare.
-if ds than swoop.
If gliding than emulates jump
If swoop than emulates jump plus exceptions
Or, on condition that FMC is gliding than
(2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.)
Moves like jump. Until the condition is met the FMC is not described as doing anything. In fact. It is described very definitively as a mc with vector strike and jink that gains conditional states upon deployment and upon entering the field.
Deep strike.
Unit must be placed in reserves before the game and you must declare to your opponent that it will arrive via ds.
If ds than reserves plus declaration.
If a model does not have the ds rule it does not have permission to do this. Does a FMC have permission to do this before the game starts? No. It's permissions that grant ds are conditional on it being in 1 of 2 flight modes which it does not have permission to enter before the game starts.
If you're trying be technical about language please please learn what Than actually means as none of your post makes sense in English.
Lance845 wrote: The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true.
Incorrect. The unit type description for the FMC is static. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the unit type description even when they are not actively in play. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit. We follow the rules as they are written and Deep Strike is granted to the FMC by virtue of the fact that its unit type description describes it as moving like a Jump unit.
You are not permitted to change rule A into rule B. Rule A is the rule as it is written.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true
If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true
Incorrect. The Unit Type description is a static thing that describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.
Your argument will remain invalid until you adhere to the semantics of 'described as'.
Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.
Is Sally jumping? no.
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.
Which of these rules is in the BRB?
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Lusiphur wrote:A FMC is not a MC that transforms into a FMC during the movement phase. It is always a FMC even during deployment, therefore it is never allowed to move in any fashion during the movement phase as anything other then a FMC can and both modes are described as using the jump rules.
And since all that is needed to access all the rules for jump is to be described as using the jump rules for it's movement it gains all the rules for jump prior to deployment
Incorrect. Either a rule is always active on a model, or it has a trigger. A rule that is always active on the FMC is Relentless. Flight Modes are not listed in this fashion. Instead, Flight Modes are provided when the model is deployed and can be changed in the Movement Phase. We are given permission for nothing else.
And so a unit that has a rule that they can move like a Jump Infantry only in the Assault Phase can instead move like Jump Infantry all the time and Deep Strike? When a Special Rule is available has no bearing and is irrelevant?
A Skyhammer Devastator will be Relentless all game at that point. Jump Units will have Hammer of Wrath even if they do not use their Jump Packs to Charge. I can Infiltrate my Infiltrators at any point in the game. I can Veil of Darkness my Deathmarks and they can use Ethereal Interception and Hunters from Hyperspace all at the same time!
Please tell me you have some sense of the temporal nature of the rules?
You still have yet to properly address most of the challenges presented to you. You also keep ignoring a good portion of the FMC's rules. Scared?
Also, you REALLY need to learn how to edit your copy & paste. It really takes up unnecessary space.
None of your Chicken Little arguments are relevant to a RAW discussion. In a RAW discussion we deal with the rules as they are written.
Indeed we are. My "Chicken Little" arguments (while not even close to being an accurate description, I am not declaring an end of the world) are relevant because I am providing a case are talking about triggers and timing. You have yet to provide any proper argument that the timing or trigger is not valid, nor choose to answer any challenge regarding them.
col_impact wrote:
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. You are not allowed to change the rule into something that cares about temporality. You are not allowed to change the rule to say this . . .
And if you think they do not, then you are fooling yourself. Remember, the ONLY time an FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit is while Gliding or Swooping. And Gliding and Swooping are tied to triggers and Phases in the unit type's own rules. One can no more ignore them than ignore their allowance to treat the FMC as a JMC, but you continue to try.
Please, prove your case that the triggers do not matter with the actual rules in the unit type in question instead of reverting to another unit type's rules.
col_impact wrote:
Spoiler:
Units that are ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
You keep changing the rule and when you do so your argument becomes wholly invalid from a RAW standpoint. I take the rule exactly as it is written and do not change it. That's why I have RAW support and you don't.
I do not keep changing the rule. Every time I have quoted the rules regarding these triggers, I have actually used YOUR quotes to do so. So, either neither of us are using RAW or you are ignoring the triggers inherent in the unit type. Which is it?
col_impact wrote:Also no amount of Chicken Little argumentation can make your counter-argument valid. The rules are what they are so deal with it. No amount of fabricating erroneous and irrelevant issues will get around dealing with how the rules are written. The rule has nothing to do with Relentless, Infiltrate, or Veil of Darkness. The sky is not falling so quit running around exclaiming the sky is falling as if it helps your invalid argument.
Than they should be easy to answer and to support if no amount of them will work. My case is about timing and triggers, which I have continuously stated and which you have continuously ignored. Still scared to actually answer the challenges?
col_impact wrote:The rules are very clear about where to look for where the BRB describes a unit type. My argument has all the RAW support. Your counter-argument has no RAW support. You ignore the language and logic of the rule itself and are resorting to Chicken Little argumentation which can only be interpreted as a concession on your part that my argument has uncontested RAW support. You have yet to even come up with a real case example that counters my argument.
My counter-argument has full RAW support since they come from the unit type in question. You have ignored it and my argument this entire time. Answer it with the rules from the unit type that it has no triggers.
Lusiphur wrote: So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.
There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.
Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?
All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.
Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.
Show a rule that requires them to move before deployment. No model can. Show a rule that requires a model to move to be put in reserves. Show a rule that requires a model to be able to move to be put in reserves. None of these things matter.
Your argument is completely moot because you fail to address the issue. The model is required to be described as moving like jump WHEN IT MOVES. Movement only happens in the MOVEMENT Phase. Not in deployment, nor in reserves. FMC's meet all the criteria for the rule, until you can find someway that they are described as not moving like jump.
If their ability to move like Jump was not tied to things that did not come in to play until the model is deployed, than you would correct. However, the movements like Jump are tied to things which only come in to play after the model is deployed.
FlingitNow wrote: I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.
Which mode is a FMC in before deployment?
Neither.
And that is part of the problem. And it's a stupid problem.
col_impact wrote:Incorrect. The unit type description for the FMC is static. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the unit type description even when they are not actively in play. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Now this is laughable. Just because a unit has the capacity to call upon a rule at times does not mean it always uses the rule. A Stubborn unit cannot use its ability to ignore negative Leadership Modifiers any time they want, like against the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death, they can only do so for Pinning Tests and Morale Checks. So, too, FMCs can only access the Jump unit rules while Gliding or Swooping, its built in to the rules of the unit type. I cannot ignore this FACT any more than I can the ability for an FMC to move over Terrain and Models without penalty, or the FACT that when an FMC stops in Difficult Terrain it must take a Dangerous Terrain Test, or the FACT that it will automatically pass this test because it possesses Move Through Cover.
col_impact wrote:The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit. We follow the rules as they are written and Deep Strike is granted to the FMC by virtue of the fact that its unit type description describes it as moving like a Jump unit.
Prove it. Because if it is NOT Gliding or Swooping, than it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
col_impact wrote:You are not permitted to change rule A into rule B. Rule A is the rule as it is written.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Nor have I stated this once. You bring it up one more time, I will report your for trolling.
You are not permitted to change the rules and have Gliding and Swooping be considered an always on state for the unit type.
Charistoph wrote: Prove it. Because if it is NOT Gliding or Swooping, than it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
If it is described as moving like a Jump unit on the unit type description for the FMC then it is described as moving like a Jump unit and satisfies the requirement for the rule in question.
Your argument will remain invalid until you adhere to the semantics of 'described as'.
Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.
Is Sally jumping? no.
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.
The rules don't care whether the FMC is currently moving like a jump unit.
The rule is phrased using "described as". The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, which it plainly is in the unit type description, where the rulebook explicitly tells us to look for where the FMC unit is described.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Based on the Unit Type description for the FMC it is 100% correct for me to assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
You keep stumbling over the way in which the rule is phrased. Sorry but that is just the rules as they are written.
This is all correct. Except that ... Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment. Like say... Wings on a ht.
The ht is a mc. Purchasing wings changes it to a FMC. Upon purchasing them before the game it gains new deployment rules.
If a tac marine could purchase a jump pack as part of its equipment before the game it would gain all those permissions at a time that would be relevant to deep striking.
The FMC has permission to enter a state that grants those permissions. It does not itself have those permissions. A fmc cannot ds. A FMC who is gliding can. You would need to be able to put the FMC into a specific flight mode before the game begins to grant the permissions. Nothing allows you to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true.
Again your requiring a model to move before the game. The rule requires the model to move like a Jump unit in the Movement Phase. That is all the is required. Your entire conditional argument means nothing. Does it move like a Jump MC in the movement phase? It can move 2 ways and both are like a Jump MC. Therefore it can DS.
There is no 3rd way that somehow disqualifies it.
At this point, we are going to have to agree to disagree, since nothing is changing in anyones argument.
Umm, you might want to look at the Space Marine Assault unit more closely. The jump pack is not a default option on them, it is a piece of wargear that is purchasable. Congrats your whole argument just fell apart.
Again, once you purchase wings for the MC, it becomes a FMC, once it becomes a FMC its movement is always described as moving like a jump unit and therefore gains all the rules, it doesn't wait until its movement phase to become one, it is a FMC from the point of equipment purchase, just like an assault marine
Umm, you might want to look at the Space Marine Assault unit more closely. The jump pack is not a default option on them, it is a piece of wargear that is purchasable. Congrats your whole argument just fell apart.
Again, once you purchase wings for the MC, it becomes a FMC, once it becomes a FMC its movement is always described as moving like a jump unit and therefore gains all the rules, it doesn't wait until its movement phase to become one, it is a FMC from the point of equipment purchase, just like an assault marine
It all depends ... the BA is written differently. Pg. 82 says that they are Jump infantry.
However, in taking the Jump pack (C:SM) it does give them Jump status.This is clearly defined. This would grant them access to the DS rules.
Umm, you might want to look at the Space Marine Assault unit more closely. The jump pack is not a default option on them, it is a piece of wargear that is purchasable. Congrats your whole argument just fell apart.
Again, once you purchase wings for the MC, it becomes a FMC, once it becomes a FMC its movement is always described as moving like a jump unit and therefore gains all the rules, it doesn't wait until its movement phase to become one, it is a FMC from the point of equipment purchase, just like an assault marine
It all depends ... the BA is written differently. Pg. 82 says that they are Jump infantry.
However, in taking the Jump pack (C:SM) it does give them Jump status.This is clearly defined. This would grant them access to the DS rules.
FMC can move like they are Jump ... move.
IF the FMC is gliding or swooping it can move like a jump mc. IF. those are active status and triggering conditions. Nothing says A FMC is considered gliding by default. Or a FMC is a jump mc that may choose to swoop. No rule gives a FMC either of those states by default. The rule clearly defines when those states begin and when you can change them. Neither of them are active when the game begins.
A model can only ever be described as moving like jump if it is moving like jump in the movement phase. A FMC can only move like jump in the movement phase regardless of the mode. End of story.
IF the FMC is gliding or swooping it can move like a jump mc. IF. those are active status and triggering conditions. Nothing says A FMC is considered gliding by default. Or a FMC is a jump mc that may choose to swoop. No rule gives a FMC either of those states by default. The rule clearly defines when those states begin and when you can change them. Neither of them are active when the game begins.
None of this is relevant to the rule in question. The rule uses "described as" so it does not care about the current state of the unit, only that the unit has been described as X in the unit type description.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule only cares if the FMC is described as 'moving like' a Jump unit. You find the description for the FMC in the Unit Types section. The rules in the FMC unit type description describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.
We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore we have satisfied this rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Charistoph wrote: Prove it. Because if it is NOT Gliding or Swooping, than it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
If it is described as moving like a Jump unit on the unit type description for the FMC then it is described as moving like a Jump unit and satisfies the requirement for the rule in question.
Your argument will remain invalid until you adhere to the semantics of 'described as'.
Full Definition of describe de·scribed de·scrib·ing transitive verb 1: to represent or give an account of in words (describe a picture) 2: to represent by a figure, model, or picture : delineate 3 obsolete : distribute 4: to trace or traverse the outline of (describe a circle) 5 archaic : observe, perceive
I am well aware and do adhere to semantics of the phrase "described as" quite properly. You have a problem with conditions and triggers, and cannot seem to resolve such semantics of such declarations properly.
Gliding: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Swooping: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
Full Definition of if 1 a : in the event that b : allowing that c : on the assumption that d : on condition that 2: whether (asked if the mail had come) (I doubt if I'll pass the course) 3: used as a function word to introduce an exclamation expressing a wish (if it would only rain) 4: even though : although perhaps (an interesting if untenable argument) 5: and perhaps not even (few if any changes are expected) —often used with not (difficult if not impossible)
A FMC is described as moving as a Jump Monstrous Creature IF it is Gliding or IF it is Swooping.
DEPLOYMENT A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
The status of Gliding or Swooping is not established as an "always on" thing, but initiated when the model is Deployed.
Gliding: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Swooping: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
Neither Gliding, Swooping, Flight Modes, nor any other section of the Unit Type states that a model with/possesses/etc this rule moves as a Jump Monstrous Creature. It is only while either Gliding or Swooping are in use that the application of "describing" the Flying Monstrous Creature as "moving as a Jump unit" is applicable.
This is how the Rules Are Written.
Rules are not allowed to operate outside the conditions set for them. The rules for Gliding and Swooping require their declared use in order to operate. Possession alone is insufficient for these rules to be used. Much like Hammer of Wrath for Jump units, their conditions must be met in order to access their benefits. A Blood Angel Jump Assault Marine who Jumped in the Movement Phase will not have Hammer of Wrath that Turn. A Flying Monstrous Creature that is neither Gliding or Swooping cannot be described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Yet again, Charistophe, you fail to grasp how the Unit Type description for the FMC describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.
If you bothered to read the Dictionary definition for describe you would plainly see that describing something does not require that something to be in the act of doing what you describe. Of course the FMC must be gliding or swooping in order to be moving like a Jump unit. However, all that is required for the FMC to be granted Deep Strike is for the rules for Swooping and Gliding to be on the FMC unit type description - the FMC is then described as moving like a Jump unit.
Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.
Is Sally jumping? no.
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.
The rule is satisfied since it merely requires that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, and does not require that the FMC is actually gliding or swooping. Since moving like a Jump unit is on the description for FMC the rule is satisfied.
The BRB tells us that the Unit Types section describes the units of 40k.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
We look at the Unit Type description for the FMC and can plainly see that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
We have satisfied the rule and we have adhered to the rule as it is written. We have adhered to the language and logic of the rule.
We can unequivocally assert that in the unit type description for the FMC the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
Charistophe, your argument is wholly invalid as long as you do not adhere to language and logic of "described as". Merely posting a definition of "describe" is not enough. You have to actually use it correctly and obey its semantics and logic.
If the rule were written this way your argument would win out.
Spoiler:
Units that are ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
However as we know the rule is not written that way at all. It is written thusly.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Now that you have looked up the definition of "described as", Charistophe, do you think you can start applying it?
Hint: it makes these two rule statements into two very logically different statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
No sally is described holding a book that reads "sally is jumping"
Sure my example describes Sally as holding a book that describes Sally as jumping.
Also, it could be simply said that the book describes Sally as jumping.
Either way the point is Sally is not actually jumping. The astute among you will note that that proves my argument.
You cannot cut out information in the description when asking if something is described in a XXX manner . Otherwise you are only partial-describing ( you are not given permission to do this in the ruleset ) . The more information put into the description , the more information must be repeated when describing it .
No sally is described holding a book that reads "sally is jumping"
Sure my example describes Sally as holding a book that describes Sally as jumping.
Also, it could be simply said that the book describes Sally as jumping.
Either way the point is Sally is not actually jumping. The astute among you will note that that proves my argument.
You cannot cut out information in the description when asking if something is described in a XXX manner . Otherwise you are only partial-describing ( you are not given permission to do this in the ruleset ) . The more information put into the description , the more information must be repeated when describing it .
Sorry what? In his example is Sally described as jumping? The correct answer is a simple yes the fact she is also described as other things is not relevant and does not change the bolean value.
So is a FMC described ANYWHERE as moving like jump units?
Not only is the answer yes but they are described as moving like Jump Units TWICE. Note however the description only actually needs to be in one of the flight modes to satisfy the rule in question.
FlingitNow wrote: [
Sorry what? In his example is Sally described as jumping? The correct answer is a simple yes the fact she is also described as other things is not relevant and does not change the bolean value.
So is a FMC described ANYWHERE as moving like jump units?
Not only is the answer yes but they are described as moving like Jump Units TWICE. Note however the description only actually needs to be in one of the flight modes to satisfy the rule in question.
So your stance is that " A nerfherder is not a jump unit" is that a nerfherder is a jump unit because it uses the words nerfherder and jump unit somewhere in the description ?
FlingitNow wrote: [
Sorry what? In his example is Sally described as jumping? The correct answer is a simple yes the fact she is also described as other things is not relevant and does not change the bolean value.
So is a FMC described ANYWHERE as moving like jump units?
Not only is the answer yes but they are described as moving like Jump Units TWICE. Note however the description only actually needs to be in one of the flight modes to satisfy the rule in question.
So your stance is that " A nerfherder is not a jump unit" is that a nerfherder is a jump unit because it uses the words nerfherder and jump unit somewhere in the description ?
Nope "is not" isn't the same as "is". If it said "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit", THEN if asked if a Nerfherder is described as a jump unit the answer is yes. If asked if a Nerfherder is a jump unit the answer is only yes on Tuesdays.
Nope "is not" isn't the same as "is". If it said "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit", THEN if asked if a Nerfherder is described as a jump unit the answer is yes. If asked if a Nerfherder is a jump unit the answer is only yes on Tuesdays.
No , that's now how the English language works . If asked if "A Nerfherder described as jump unit?" the answer is no . It is describbed as "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit".
Saying that "A Nerfherder described as jump unit" is described as a jump unit is a lie . It would be partial described ( because you did not provide the full information while having it. You don't get to pick and choose the description , you use the entire thing. )
How does a FMC move? It is only allowed to move by either swooping or gliding.
Is this always true once the unit is determined to be a FMC? Yes.
Are either swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? Yes, both are.
Is a FMC allowed to move in any other fashion? No, it has no other movement options available to it.
Does this mean a FMC can be described, at all times, as moving like a jump unit? YES.
Does being described as moving like a jump unit satisfy the rule for gaining all the rules of a jump unit? YES.
But the IF statement is in the rules it has to mean something right? Yes it does, it means you can't glide and swoop at the same time. It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Nope "is not" isn't the same as "is". If it said "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit", THEN if asked if a Nerfherder is described as a jump unit the answer is yes. If asked if a Nerfherder is a jump unit the answer is only yes on Tuesdays.
No , that's now how the English language works . If asked if "A Nerfherder described as jump unit?" the answer is no . It is describbed as "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit".
Saying that "A Nerfherder described as jump unit" is described as a jump unit is a lie . It would be partial described ( because you did not provide the full information while having it. You don't get to pick and choose the description , you use the entire thing. )
Sorry but is the sentence says that a Nerfherder is a jump unit, then it is described as a jump unit, that is actually how English works. There is no way to move this discussion forward until you understand what described as means.
Lusiphur wrote: How does a FMC move? It is only allowed to move by either swooping or gliding.
Is this always true once the unit is determined to be a FMC? Yes.
Are either swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? Yes, both are.
Is a FMC allowed to move in any other fashion? No, it has no other movement options available to it.
Does this mean a FMC can be described, at all times, as moving like a jump unit? YES.
Does being described as moving like a jump unit satisfy the rule for gaining all the rules of a jump unit? YES.
But the IF statement is in the rules it has to mean something right? Yes it does, it means you can't glide and swoop at the same time. It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Lusiphur wrote: How does a FMC move? It is only allowed to move by either swooping or gliding.
Is this always true once the unit is determined to be a FMC? Yes.
Are either swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? Yes, both are.
Is a FMC allowed to move in any other fashion? No, it has no other movement options available to it.
Does this mean a FMC can be described, at all times, as moving like a jump unit? YES.
Does being described as moving like a jump unit satisfy the rule for gaining all the rules of a jump unit? YES.
But the IF statement is in the rules it has to mean something right? Yes it does, it means you can't glide and swoop at the same time. It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
It is not undefined and the time is very clear not mythical.
Until it enters a flight mode it is not gliding or swooping I.e. Before deployment, and while in reserves. The 3rd movement option is it's default and is stated in the FMC first sentence. A FMC is a mc. 6 inches. Not a jump mc, which they could have easily stated. It is not gliding by default which they could have stated. Just a mc.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
col_impact wrote: Yet again, Charistophe, you fail to grasp how the Unit Type description for the FMC describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.
Quite incorrect. I fully grasp it. I also fully grasp that I don't get to pick and choose the bits I want to pay attention to. The Description for the FMC relies on "if" statements.
col_impact wrote: If you bothered to read the Dictionary definition for describe you would plainly see that describing something does not require that something to be in the act of doing what you describe. Of course the FMC must be gliding or swooping in order to be moving like a Jump unit. However, all that is required for the FMC to be granted Deep Strike is for the rules for Swooping and Gliding to be on the FMC unit type description - the FMC is then described as moving like a Jump unit.
I just quoted the definition of "described". And yet, the FMC is only described as moving thus while Swooping or Gliding. Quote the part in the unit type descriptions that states the FMC moves like a Jump unit at any other time.
col_impact wrote: Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.
Is Sally jumping? no.
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.
Which Sally is described as jumping, though? Not the one holding the book, but the Sally in the book in her hand is described as jumping. Nevertheless, you continue to use this type of unlogic and wave away and ignore anything that does not support your perspective. You never even address it.
col_impact wrote: The rule is satisfied since it merely requires that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, and does not require that the FMC is actually gliding or swooping. Since moving like a Jump unit is on the description for FMC the rule is satisfied.
The BRB tells us that the Unit Types section describes the units of 40k.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
We look at the Unit Type description for the FMC and can plainly see that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
We have satisfied the rule and we have adhered to the rule as it is written. We have adhered to the language and logic of the rule.
We can unequivocally assert that in the unit type description for the FMC the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
Sure it does, while it is Swooping or Gliding. That is specifically written in the unit type.
col_impact wrote: Charistophe, your argument is wholly invalid as long as you do not adhere to language and logic of "described as". Merely posting a definition of "describe" is not enough. You have to actually use it correctly and obey its semantics and logic.
Incorrect. Completely incorrect. Your argument is only valid if you ignore the conditions under which the description is valid.
col_impact wrote: Now that you have looked up the definition of "described as", Charistophe, do you think you can start applying it?
Now that I've quoted the definition of "if", do you think you can start applying it?
col_impact wrote: Hint: it makes these two rule statements into two very logically different statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
Proven wrong by the FMC rules.
Elucidate and expand your answer.
FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.
When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..
Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
Proven wrong by the FMC rules.
Elucidate and expand your answer.
FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.
When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..
Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.
However their description still includes "moves like a jump unit" which is all that is required...
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Which rule is in the rulebook?
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
Proven wrong by the FMC rules.
Elucidate and expand your answer.
FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.
When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..
Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.
However their description still includes "moves like a jump unit" which is all that is required...
And the conditions to those descriptions do not matter or count?
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Which rule is in the rulebook?
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
And thank you for not answering the question.
So, to you, conditions stated RAW do not matter, nor do they count?
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Which rule is in the rulebook?
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
And thank you for not answering the question.
So, to you, conditions stated RAW do not matter, nor do they count?
The rule is expressed the way it is. I adhere to the language and logic of the rule.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
That's the way English works. If you have a problem with it you have a problem with the way GW writes rules, not with me. I am just reading the rule and applying the rule as it is written.
I suggest you e-mail GW and tell them you are offended by their use of "described as" in their rule. Meanwhile, I will follow the rules as they are written.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book? A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.. B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Which rule is in the rulebook?
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
And thank you for not answering the question.
So, to you, conditions stated RAW do not matter, nor do they count?
The rule is expressed the way it is. I adhere to the language and logic of the rule.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
That's the way English works. If you have a problem with it you have a problem with the way GW writes rules, not with me. I am just reading the rule and applying the rule as it is written.
I suggest you e-mail GW and tell them you are offended by their use of "described as" in their rule. Meanwhile, I will follow the rules as they are written.
You seem to have a sincere incapacity to actually understand a case presented to you regarding this. I am not offended by their use of "described as". I have not stated this, nor suggested this. I am offended by your inability to recognize conditions the rules themselves state as applying.
FlingitNow wrote:
And the conditions to those descriptions do not matter or count?
Not fulfil the requirement of being "described as moving like Jump units".
And the rule and reasoning behind that is what, when conditions and requirements matter for every other rule in the game?
You seem to have a sincere incapacity to actually understand a case presented to you regarding this. I am not offended by their use of "described as". I have not stated this, nor suggested this. I am offended by your inability to recognize conditions the rules themselves state as applying.
You can be offended however way you like. It still does not change the rules as they are written.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Which rule is in the rulebook?
My argument still stands uncontested.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Col I can agree that both A & B has provision in it to allow Deep Strike but, and this is the problem that has been highlighted time and again by others at what point do you determine whether the unit is A or B? And this is the crux of the problem, even though both A and B lead to the same outcome, the determination of that state is after the decision to put the unit into DSR.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
Proven wrong by the FMC rules.
Elucidate and expand your answer.
FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.
When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..
Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.
The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
Fragile wrote: The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.
Fragile wrote: The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.
Cheers
Andrew
Incorrect. You are not adhering to the language and logic of this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact the in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore this rule is satisfied . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
You seem to have a sincere incapacity to actually understand a case presented to you regarding this. I am not offended by their use of "described as". I have not stated this, nor suggested this. I am offended by your inability to recognize conditions the rules themselves state as applying.
You can be offended however way you like. It still does not change the rules as they are written.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Which rule is in the rulebook?
My argument still stands uncontested.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
I'm sorry, where does is state that "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units ALWAYS follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE NOT DESCRIBED AS MOVING LIKE A JUMP UNIT."
You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.
Lusiphur wrote: It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.
Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.
Proven wrong by the FMC rules.
Elucidate and expand your answer.
FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.
When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..
Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.
The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
Not QUITE factual. To be accurate, they can only move like Jump AFTER THEY DEPLOY. This status is NOT listed as "always on" like many other rules.
A very stupid way to do it no matter the intention behind this situation.
You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.
The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.
Except you keep misusing the term "decribed as" with what you are doing "partially described as" and somehow are thinking its the same thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/partially "being such in part only; not total or general; incomplete: "
col_impact wrote: In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
It never states this , if it did we wouldn't have this 8 page post
col_impact wrote: A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
No matter how many times you type it , a and b are never equal . They are not the same thing . B is never stated in the rules , but you keep using it
col_impact wrote: In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
No. A is described as "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
B doesn't even exist in the rules you keep posting. B is partialy describing A ( which you have ZERO rules to tell you to do this , yet you keep doing it )
col_impact wrote: The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .
Not including "The presence or absence of conditionals" means you are not describing as it is in the description , which is what required when describing it.
col_impact wrote: does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Except it does , because they you are not descbinging it as it is in the description , you are making up your own definition in doing so , you do not have permissions in the ruleset to do so
You started with flawed logic from the start , "described as" ≠ "partialy described as"
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. " ≠ described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.
Except you keep misusing the term "decribed as" with what you are doing "partially described as" and somehow are thinking its the same thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/partially "being such in part only; not total or general; incomplete: "
col_impact wrote: In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
It never states this , if it did we wouldn't have this 8 page post
col_impact wrote: A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
No matter how many times you type it , a and b are never equal . They are not the same thing . B is never stated in the rules , but you keep using it
col_impact wrote: In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
No. A is described as "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
B doesn't even exist in the rules you keep posting. B is partialy describing A ( which you have ZERO rules to tell you to do this , yet you keep doing it )
col_impact wrote: The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .
Not including "The presence or absence of conditionals" means you are not describing as it is in the description , which is what required when describing it.
col_impact wrote: does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Except it does , because they you are not descbinging it as it is in the description , you are making up your own definition in doing so , you do not have permissions in the ruleset to do so
You started with flawed logic from the start , "described as" ≠ "partialy described as"
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. " ≠ described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Your whole argument is invalid. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as a Jump unit. The rule does not care if the FMC is actually in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
The unit type description includes this:
Spoiler:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
In that statement the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore this rule is satisfied . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.
The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.
I am not ignoring it. However, you have been misinterpreting it to try and allow you to ignore the conditions set in the FMC rules. "Being described as" is not an "always" condition if the "description" is also under conditions as well.
col_impact wrote: In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.. B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .
There is a huge difference between A and B, though. And the fact that you do not recognize it indicates that you are refusing to acknowledge the full rules of the Unit Type.
Logic is satisfied, but only when recognition of the conditions in play are provided. FMCs are Jump units when Gliding or Swooping. They have Deep Strike while Gliding or Swooping are being used. But being a Jump unit is not a default condition of the FMC, unfortunately and stupidly.
You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.
The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.
I am not ignoring it. However, you have been misinterpreting it to try and allow you to ignore the conditions set in the FMC rules. "Being described as" is not an "always" condition if the "description" is also under conditions as well.
col_impact wrote: In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .
There is a huge difference between A and B, though. And the fact that you do not recognize it indicates that you are refusing to acknowledge the full rules of the Unit Type.
Logic is satisfied, but only when recognition of the conditions in play are provided. FMCs are Jump units when Gliding or Swooping. They have Deep Strike while Gliding or Swooping are being used. But being a Jump unit is not a default condition of the FMC, unfortunately and stupidly.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping. That is what the FMC rules state.
Incorrect. You keep failing to adhere to the language and logic of the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
This rule wants to know, yes or no, if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
To do that the BRB tells us to look at the unit type description for the FMC. On there we find this rule.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.
The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore this rule is satisfied.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule does not care when the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit only that it indeed is described as moving like a Jump unit. That is simply how the rule is written. That is how the logic of the rule works.
If you have a problem with the way the rule is written, discuss the matter with GW or perhaps you can convince your opponent to house rule it however you want to play it. Meanwhile I will follow the rule as it is written.
Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.
The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.
Incorrect. The rules make it clear that moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature is moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.
The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.
Incorrect. The rules make it clear that moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature is moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
And yet it never "moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature"
Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.
The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.
Incorrect. The rules make it clear that moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature is moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
And yet it never "moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature"
The rules disagree with you.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?
Incorrect.
" . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" satisfies ‘moving like’ Jump units.
If you are saying otherwise you are being overly pedantic and your argument can be dismissed readily as such.
And the rule and reasoning behind that is what, when conditions and requirements matter for every other rule in the game?
It all depends on how the rule is written. By your argument if a model with stealth is at the back of a unit being fired at none of his comrades benefit as they don't have the special rule. Rules tell you what conditions need to be met in Stealth it tells you that only 1 model in the unit needs to have the rule for the unit to benefit. In Jump Unit the unit must merely be described as moving like a jump unit to benefit, it doesn't need to be moving as jump infantry.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?
Incorrect.
" . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" satisfies ‘moving like’ Jump units.
If you are saying otherwise you are being overly pedantic and your argument can be dismissed readily as such.
It can't be dismissed cause that is exactly how it is written and exactly how the definitions of the words that , we both , keep using. You insist on quoting something that is "partially described as" and passing it off as "described as" and you have no rules to tell you to do that . You are doing sometihng not in the rules , and by nature of a permissive rule set , need to stop doing so
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?
Incorrect.
" . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" satisfies ‘moving like’ Jump units.
If you are saying otherwise you are being overly pedantic and your argument can be dismissed readily as such.
It can't be dismissed cause that is exactly how it is written and exactly how the definitions of the words that , we both , keep using. You insist on quoting something that is "partially described as" and passing it off as "described as" and you have no rules to tell you to do that . You are doing sometihng not in the rules , and by nature of a permissive rule set , need to stop doing so
No one else agrees with your pendantic line of argumentation. Give it up.
The thread generally recognizes " . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" as the equivalent of 'moving like' Jump units. That is not what is at issue here.
Fragile wrote: One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
This is never stated.
Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?
If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.
Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?
Fragile wrote: One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
This is never stated.
Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?
If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.
Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?
This.
By the same logic that says an FMC gains the Jump rules at all times, you could also conclude that it is Hard to Hit at all times because it is described as such on its static unit type description.
However, both the Jump rule and Hard to Hit are rules given to a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and/or a Swooping Monstrous Creature.
Fragile wrote: The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.
Cheers
Andrew
Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.
Not QUITE factual. To be accurate, they can only move like Jump AFTER THEY DEPLOY. This status is NOT listed as "always on" like many other rules.
A very stupid way to do it no matter the intention behind this situation.
It is exactly factual. You are the one adding wording to the rules. They are MCs, however they move like Jump in all the ways they move. Nothing in the rule states they do so after deployment. You are simply trying to justify a condition that does not exist. They are described as moving like Jump. That is all that is required to satisfy the rule. Unless you can find a rule that shows models move while in reserve, models have to be able to move to be in reserve. Until then your condition does not exist, as all moves done in the Movement Phase are Jump.
Fragile wrote: One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
This is never stated.
Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?
If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.
Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?
How is it not stated? They can move two ways. Only two. Both are described as moving like Jump. Show me a rule that lets them move a third.
Fragile wrote: One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
This is never stated.
Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?
If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.
Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?
This.
By the same logic that says an FMC gains the Jump rules at all times, you could also conclude that it is Hard to Hit at all times because it is described as such on its static unit type description.
However, both the Jump rule and Hard to Hit are rules given to a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and/or a Swooping Monstrous Creature.
Nope however the statement "are FMCs described as hard to hit" is always true. Despite the fact they are not always hard to hit. So why the glide and swoop modes are not always ineffect the Jump Unit rule doesn't care about that it only cares if they are described as moving like jump units.
Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.
To use your own words, incorrect.
You are quite accurate in your assertion that FMCs can only move in one of two flight modes, however both movements are entirely conditional by the way they are written. Poor writing on behalf of GW? Probably.
So the rule, as written, is entirely conditional on the flight mode chosen. And according to the rule the moved as jump unit doesn't kick in until then. But the decision as to which flight mode is used is after the DSR choice.
Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.
To use your own words, incorrect.
You are quite accurate in your assertion that FMCs can only move in one of two flight modes, however both movements are entirely conditional by the way they are written. Poor writing on behalf of GW? Probably.
So the rule, as written, is entirely conditional on the flight mode chosen. And according to the rule the moved as jump unit doesn't kick in until then. But the decision as to which flight mode is used is after the DSR choice.
Cheers
Andrew
Incorrect.
This rule does not care when the rule kicks in, only that the rule describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. That's how the logic of "described as" works.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Since the above rule is satisfied, the FMC has Deep Strike and can enter Deep Strike Reserve.
You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.
The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.
I am not ignoring it. However, you have been misinterpreting it to try and allow you to ignore the conditions set in the FMC rules. "Being described as" is not an "always" condition if the "description" is also under conditions as well.
col_impact wrote: In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.. B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .
There is a huge difference between A and B, though. And the fact that you do not recognize it indicates that you are refusing to acknowledge the full rules of the Unit Type.
Logic is satisfied, but only when recognition of the conditions in play are provided. FMCs are Jump units when Gliding or Swooping. They have Deep Strike while Gliding or Swooping are being used. But being a Jump unit is not a default condition of the FMC, unfortunately and stupidly.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping. That is what the FMC rules state.
Incorrect. You keep failing to adhere to the language and logic of the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
This rule wants to know, yes or no, if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
And the FMC rules insists that this description is only in play while Gliding or Swooping. You keep failing to adhere to THIS language and logic of THESE rules. The Jump rules do not override this in any fashion.
col_impact wrote:To do that the BRB tells us to look at the unit type description for the FMC. On there we find this rule.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.
The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore this rule is satisfied.
Your continuous failure at deconstructing the pertinent rules you just quoted above hovers on the realm of trolling.
Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit?
The Answer is, "if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" or "if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swopping". These are the conditions that direct us to the Jump unit rules.
col_impact wrote:
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule does not care when the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit only that it indeed is described as moving like a Jump unit. That is simply how the rule is written. That is how the logic of the rule works.
This rule does not, but the FMC rules do. And since we are talking about FMC rules, their conditions provide the primacy regarding their ability to access.
col_impact wrote:If you have a problem with the way the rule is written, discuss the matter with GW or perhaps you can convince your opponent to house rule it however you want to play it. Meanwhile I will follow the rule as it is written.
While ignoring two other Rules As Written. Bravo.
FlingitNow wrote:
And the rule and reasoning behind that is what, when conditions and requirements matter for every other rule in the game?
It all depends on how the rule is written. By your argument if a model with stealth is at the back of a unit being fired at none of his comrades benefit as they don't have the special rule. Rules tell you what conditions need to be met in Stealth it tells you that only 1 model in the unit needs to have the rule for the unit to benefit. In Jump Unit the unit must merely be described as moving like a jump unit to benefit, it doesn't need to be moving as jump infantry.
It is almost like the words matter.
Yes, it IS almost like the words matter.
Stealth's condition is that at least one model have the rule for the unit to benefit. Fearless's condition is that at least one model has the rule and it is taking a Morale Check, Fear, Regroup, or Pinning Test in order to automatically pass a Leadership Test.
While Jump's condition is that they are described as moving like a Jump unit, FMC's conditions to be described as moving like Jump unit is IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.
Fragile wrote: The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.
Cheers
Andrew
Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.
Quite Correct. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
Fragile wrote:
Not QUITE factual. To be accurate, they can only move like Jump AFTER THEY DEPLOY. This status is NOT listed as "always on" like many other rules.
A very stupid way to do it no matter the intention behind this situation.
It is exactly factual. You are the one adding wording to the rules. They are MCs, however they move like Jump in all the ways they move. Nothing in the rule states they do so after deployment. You are simply trying to justify a condition that does not exist. They are described as moving like Jump. That is all that is required to satisfy the rule. Unless you can find a rule that shows models move while in reserve, models have to be able to move to be in reserve. Until then your condition does not exist, as all moves done in the Movement Phase are Jump.
Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.
Fragile wrote: One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.
This is never stated.
Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?
If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.
Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?
How is it not stated? They can move two ways. Only two. Both are described as moving like Jump. Show me a rule that lets them move a third.
But they can only move in these two ways while being deployed, and are never noted as being under these conditions until it is deployed.
Unless you can demonstrate that the FMC is under either JMC, Gliding, or Swooping at ALL times within in the FMC's rules, or at least without a condition like "if"?
Quite Correct. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
.
I didnt see "Transformer" in their rules. So they walk onto the battlefield then sprout wings and become FMCs to fly? No.
There is no 3rd movement mode. They either Glide or Swoop at all times. The conditional you keep citing is to show they cannot do both at the same time.
Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.
Incorrect FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units twice in their description. However they only move like Jump Units if they are gliding or swooping.
While Jump's condition is that they are described as moving like a Jump unit, FMC's conditions to be described as moving like Jump unit is IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.
Incorrect. You continue to fail to use "described as" correctly and continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rules. Your whole argument is invalid.
"Described as" is condition on the Jump rule. However, "described as" is not a phrase that the FMC rules use at all, so obviously the FMC rules can apply no condition on "described as".
The FMC rules tell us that the FMC moves like Jump when it glides. The FMC rules DO NOT tell us that the FMC is 'described as' anything. The FMC rules do not contain the word "describe".
What describes the FMC then?
The rulebook tells us that the Unit Types section is where we look for were FMCs are described.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
The portion of the Unit Types section under Flying Monstrous Creatures is where the FMC is described. Collectively the information under that heading is a Unit Type description that describes the FMC.
In that Unit Type description for the FMC we find a rule that reads thusly . . .
Spoiler:
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In that statement the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The statement contains conditionals but whether or not the conditions are satisfied the FMC is still described as moving like a Jump unit by the statement.
Consider these two statements . . .
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
That is simply the way the logic of "described as" works and we must adhere to that logic. Anyone who does not like how loose the logic of "described as" is can e-mail GW to express their dissatisfaction with the rule. Meanwhile the way the rule is written is clear and we must follow it.
Therefore this rule is satisfied.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule does not care when the FMC is moving like a Jump unit, only that it is indeed "described as" moving like a Jump unit. Indeed, the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.
Incorrect FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units twice in their description. However they only move like Jump Units if they are gliding or swooping.
By all means, post the third method that FMCs are allowed to move... we are still waiting 9 pages later......
To be honest Fragile, I think your request is completely irrelevant, as the FMC has no state prior to deployment. Much in the same way that a model with rules at the start of the turn do not get to use them prior to appearance on the table. For example many of the psychic powers cannot be manifested until the model is deployed.
As in this case, the movement state of the FMC cannot be determined until it is deployed ie swooping or gliding and as such determines that it is a JMC and as such has additional rules pertaining to jump. But the act of deployment is after the determination of DSR.
As I said earlier, I think this is sloppy rules writing on behalf of GW and not as intended, infact had the rules been written as "FMCs are JMC that can only move in one of two methods" then there is no argument they can DS, but the rules are written as FMCs can only move in one of two methods, when using one of those methods they move as JMCs.
Nor does it ever need a state Andrew. There is no movement in deployment nor in reserves. FMCs do not suddenly change from a MC to a FMC at the start of the first turn. They are always FMCs and are always described as moving like Jump. They are just capable of a choice of which type of Jump they can do when they move.
Fragile wrote: Nor does it ever need a state Andrew. There is no movement in deployment nor in reserves. FMCs do not suddenly change from a MC to a FMC at the start of the first turn. They are always FMCs and are always described as moving like Jump. They are just capable of a choice of which type of Jump they can do when they move.
Unfortunately in this case they need a movement state in order to access the Jump rules as described in their unit profile. As you correctly point out, they are capable of a choice of which type of jump they can do when they move IF they glide or swoop. But they are incapable of making that choice prior to the decision to move models into DSR.
That timing discrepancy is what, in my opinion, restricts FMCs from DSing. GW has put the rules in the wrong order.
Quite Correct. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
.
I didnt see "Transformer" in their rules. So they walk onto the battlefield then sprout wings and become FMCs to fly? No.
There is no 3rd movement mode. They either Glide or Swoop at all times. The conditional you keep citing is to show they cannot do both at the same time.
Quote where it states that they either Glide or Swoop at ALL times.
The conditions I quote are not arguing that they do both. What I have stated is:
1) FMC rules place restrictions on moving like a Jump MC.
2) FMC rules are only describe as moving like a Jump MC if the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.
3) FMC rules are only noted as Gliding or Swooping when they deploy and at the beginning of the Movement Phase.
4) No state is recorded before the FMC deploys nor considered the "default" of the FMC. The closest is that they are Monstrous Creatures with extra rules, which counts as a 3rd Movement Profile (Jump Profile comes with 2 movement Profiles, the "Jumping" and the "one of the other type").
FlingitNow wrote:
Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.
Incorrect FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units twice in their description. However they only move like Jump Units if they are gliding or swooping.
I can't tell if you are trolling on this one.
Spoiler:
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
Can you find any other description of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules and are not dependent on an "if" statement?
While Jump's condition is that they are described as moving like a Jump unit, FMC's conditions to be described as moving like Jump unit is IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.
Incorrect. You continue to fail to use "described as" correctly and continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rules. Your whole argument is invalid.
Quite Correct. Let me quote it for you, AGAIN:
Spoiler:
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
And I do not recognize any such rejection of any conditions in any use of "described as" without other phrases involved, nor do I find them in the Jump unit type's rules.
col_impact wrote:Same nonsensical b.s. that ignores the conditions set forth by the unit type in question
When you get your act together on this and start recognizing the conditions in play and start addressing them, I will again start addressing your arguments again. At this point, you are just trawling the same line over and over again.
Fragile wrote:Nor does it ever need a state Andrew. There is no movement in deployment nor in reserves. FMCs do not suddenly change from a MC to a FMC at the start of the first turn. They are always FMCs and are always described as moving like Jump. They are just capable of a choice of which type of Jump they can do when they move.
It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.
They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around.
If you can find any movement or connection with Jump Monstrous Creatures that do not rely on a condition, like "If the Flying Monstrous Creature is...", please share with the rest of the class, and we can put this to rest.
Otherwise, if dealing only with RAW, I must stand by this concept that FMCs do not natively have the Deep Strike rule until they Deploy.
Fragile wrote:None of that matters to the Jump rule though.
But it DOES matter to the FMC rules. If we were looking at Jump rules alone, or if conditions were not applied to the movement described as "Jump", this would be pointless. Yet, there they are.
col_impact wrote:Same nonsensical b.s. that ignores the conditions set forth by the unit type in question
When you get your act together on this and start recognizing the conditions in play and start addressing them, I will again start addressing your arguments again. At this point, you are just trawling the same line over and over again.
The stuff that you call 'nonsensical b.s.' is the language and logic of the Jump rule in question. You continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rule in question. Therefore your argument is invalid.
Until you start adhering to the language and logic of the rule, your argument will remain invalid. If you are tired of having the critique repeated I suggest you address the critique and start adhering to the language and logic of the Jump rule in question.
This is the Jump rule in question . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Because of its use of "described as", the rule does not care about the conditionals in the FMC rules you keep pointing at. The rule does not care about when the FMC moves like a Jump unit. The rule only cares that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Consider these two statements . . .
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
That is simply the way the logic of "described as" works and we must adhere to that logic. The way the rule is written is clear and we must follow it.
We know that the unit type description for the FMC indeed describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore this rule is satisfied.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
col_impact wrote:Same nonsensical b.s. that ignores the conditions set forth by the unit type in question
When you get your act together on this and start recognizing the conditions in play and start addressing them, I will again start addressing your arguments again. At this point, you are just trawling the same line over and over again.
The stuff that you call 'nonsensical b.s.' is the language and logic of the Jump rule in question. You continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rule in question. Therefore your argument is invalid.
Until you start adhering to the language and logic of the rule, your argument will remain invalid. If you are tired of having the critique repeated I suggest you address the critique and start adhering to the language and logic of the Jump rule in question.
Until you start adhering to the language and logic of the rules in the Flying Monstrous Creature unit type, your case is nonsensical b.s.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
A is conditional, B is not. A is in the rulebook, B is not. Until the condition of A is fulfilled, the status and description of its Jump movement is not fulfilled and not in play.
This is what is meant by conditional. And until you recognize this status or find specific wording to ignore the conditions, your case is as null, void, and nonsensical as Fearless affecting Invisibility.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
A is conditional, B is not. A is in the rulebook, B is not. Until the condition of A is fulfilled, the status and description of its Jump movement is not fulfilled and not in play.
This is what is meant by conditional. And until you recognize this status or find specific wording to ignore the conditions, your case is as null, void, and nonsensical as Fearless affecting Invisibility.
And yet BOTH A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
This rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule does not care when the FMC is moving like a Jump unit, only that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
We can look at the unit type description for the FMC and plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the Jump rule in question is satisfied and the FMC has Deep Strike.
In order for you to have a RAW argument you need to adhere strictly to the language and logic of the rule. You are not adhering to the language and logic and therefore are house ruling. Mark your posts HYWPI. I will stick with the rules as they are written.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
Can you find any other description of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules and are not dependent on an "if" statement?
Why would I need to? The Jump Unit rule cares not for if they are moving like Jump Units, only if there exists a description that describes as such. Which there undeniably is, indeed there are 2 such descriptions as you have just quoted. Now prove that neither of those descriptions appears in the FMC rules page and paragraph.
It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.
They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around..
FMCs have two ways to move. They start the game in Gliding, they may choose during their movement to change to Swooping. Both are JUMP. You can repeat your "conditional" arguments all you want but you fail to show any way shape or form to how it stops them from being described as moving like jump.
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
A is conditional, B is not. A is in the rulebook, B is not. Until the condition of A is fulfilled, the status and description of its Jump movement is not fulfilled and not in play.
This is what is meant by conditional. And until you recognize this status or find specific wording to ignore the conditions, your case is as null, void, and nonsensical as Fearless affecting Invisibility.
And yet BOTH A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
This rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
The rule does not care when the FMC is moving like a Jump unit, only that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
We can look at the unit type description for the FMC and plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the Jump rule in question is satisfied and the FMC has Deep Strike.
In order for you to have a RAW argument you need to adhere strictly to the language and logic of the rule. You are not adhering to the language and logic and therefore are house ruling. Mark your posts HYWPI. I will stick with the rules as they are written.
Yes, A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.
BUT, A is with a condition, and it is a condition that the FMC rules care about. The FMC's rules only describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit while Gliding and Swooping. That is the RAW. End of Story.
If a person is described as eating blueberries, they will have blue teeth.
If person Joe eats a blueberry pie, they will be considered to be eating blueberries.
Does this statement means that Joe has blue teeth?
FlingitNow wrote:
I can't tell if you are trolling on this one.
:
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...
Can you find any other description of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules and are not dependent on an "if" statement?
Why would I need to? The Jump Unit rule cares not for if they are moving like Jump Units, only if there exists a description that describes as such. Which there undeniably is, indeed there are 2 such descriptions as you have just quoted. Now prove that neither of those descriptions appears in the FMC rules page and paragraph.
Because the FMC's rules place the description under a condition. So in order for that status to be viable, the condition must be met. Do you allow Fearless models to automatically pass ALL Leadership Tests? Do you believe a Skyhammer Devastator Squad is Relentless for the entire game? If not, then why?
If a person is described as eating blueberries, they will have blue teeth.
If person Joe eats a blueberry pie, they will be considered to be eating blueberries.
Does this statement means that Joe has blue teeth?
It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.
They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around..
FMCs have two ways to move. They start the game in Gliding, they may choose during their movement to change to Swooping. Both are JUMP. You can repeat your "conditional" arguments all you want but you fail to show any way shape or form to how it stops them from being described as moving like jump.
Correct, they START the game Gliding. They DEPLOY as either Gliding or Swooping. So, they are Jump when they start the game. They are Jump when they Deploy.
No status applies to the FMC to consider them as Jump at any point before then, unless you can properly quote the passage that says otherwise.
Except described as is itself uncinditional - it dies not care how much, or when , a model is described as "jump", just that it is described a such. And, without question, it IS described as such.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Between this line and the deployment assignments. There is no time at all, during an entire game turn, that the FMC is not assigned to glide or swoop and are therefore described as moving like jump. The fact that you think some type of movement has to be assigned to the unit during a point of time that is not included in any game turn where no movement can ever happen in the game by anything matters is mind boggling.
The conditional in the glide and swoop rules is only there because you can never be in glide or swoop mode at the same time. Not because there is some third default state.
During every game turn from start to finish, the FMC is not allowed to move in any other fashion then glide or swoop.
Charistoph wrote: Yes, A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.
BUT, A is with a condition, and it is a condition that the FMC rules care about. The FMC's rules only describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit while Gliding and Swooping. That is the RAW. End of Story.
Great. You have just agreed (in the red) that both A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.
That is all this rule cares about . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
As you have pointed out both A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
That's just the rule as it is written. If you have a problem with how the rule is written maybe you can talk it over with your opponent to see if you want to house rule it to say something different.
Correct, they START the game Gliding. They DEPLOY as either Gliding or Swooping. So, they are Jump when they start the game. They are Jump when they Deploy.
No status applies to the FMC to consider them as Jump at any point before then, unless you can properly quote the passage that says otherwise.
They start the game as a Jump, and are Jump throughout the game.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
How is that not moving like Jump? Where is the contradiction?
nosferatu1001 wrote:Except described as is itself uncinditional - it dies not care how much, or when , a model is described as "jump", just that it is described a such. And, without question, it IS described as such.
So, when something is "described as" we ignore any condition when the "described as" occurs?
As I keep pointing out and NO ONE HAS ADDRESSED.
col_impact wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Yes, A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.
BUT, A is with a condition, and it is a condition that the FMC rules care about. The FMC's rules only describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit while Gliding and Swooping. That is the RAW. End of Story.
Great. You have just agreed (in the red) that both A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.
That is all this rule cares about . . .
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
As you have pointed out both A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
That's just the rule as it is written. If you have a problem with how the rule is written maybe you can talk it over with your opponent to see if you want to house rule it to say something different.
That is all the JUMP rule cares about. The FMC rules are a completely different story. Something you have yet to even acknowledge the existence of.
Should we bother not considering conditions applied in other situations just because another situation does not? Should we just go ahead and Charge the turn a unit is Deep Striking, Arriving From Reserves, or Disembarking? Or should we just deny Charging to any unit that Infiltrates, Scouts, Deep Strikes, Arrives From Reserves, or Disembarks? Never mind if they have a rule that explicitly counters them, we're ignoring the conditions in which they are called.
I note you did not even try addressing the challenge of Blue Teeth. Still scared to be honest in your interpretation? Still cannot face the logic and RAW of the rules in the FMC rules?
Correct, they START the game Gliding. They DEPLOY as either Gliding or Swooping. So, they are Jump when they start the game. They are Jump when they Deploy.
No status applies to the FMC to consider them as Jump at any point before then, unless you can properly quote the passage that says otherwise.
They start the game as a Jump, and are Jump throughout the game.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
How is that not moving like Jump? Where is the contradiction?
No contradiction. The question is if they can Deep Strike natively.
They are Jump when they Deploy. They are Jump when they announce their Movement in the Movement Phase. Nothing defines or describes them as Jump before they are deployed.
In order to Deep Strike, they must have the Deep Strike rule (or be required to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, at least, per Drop Pod precedence). In order to Deep Strike, they must be put in Reserves and announced to be Deep Striking.
Since FMC are not described as Jump when Reserves are announced, they do not have the Deep Strike rule. If they do not have the Deep Strike rule, they cannot be placed in to Deep Strike Reserves.
Unfortunately, by the time FMC's gain any type of description of moving like a Jump unit, Reserves have already been declared and the FMC is deployed. The rulebook does not provide a way for a deployed model to undeploy and go in to Reserves. The closest opportunity for all FMCs is going in to Ongoing Reserves, but this doesn't help if you are intending for the FMC to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves like Drop Pods and Deathwing detachments do.
That is all the JUMP rule cares about. The FMC rules are a completely different story. Something you have yet to even acknowledge the existence of.
Should we bother not considering conditions applied in other situations just because another situation does not? Should we just go ahead and Charge the turn a unit is Deep Striking, Arriving From Reserves, or Disembarking? Or should we just deny Charging to any unit that Infiltrates, Scouts, Deep Strikes, Arrives From Reserves, or Disembarks? Never mind if they have a rule that explicitly counters them, we're ignoring the conditions in which they are called.
Glad you agree that that is all the Jump rules care about. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied and Deep Strike is granted.
All of the other rules situations you mentioned make no use of "described as" in their rules so they are nonrelevant. In fact, the BRB includes no other "described as" statement aside from the Jump rule, so you will have difficulty coming up with a Sky Is Falling scenario.
I note you did not even try addressing the challenge of Blue Teeth. Still scared to be honest in your interpretation? Still cannot face the logic and RAW of the rules in the FMC rules?
Your Blue Teeth example is intentionally misleading since you are mixing commonsensical causal relations (e.g. blue teeth comes commonsensically from after eating blueberries) with the strict logical relations of "described as" in an attempt to confuse the reader by pitting commonsense against the task of evaluating the statements in terms of strict logic.
The correct way to pose the question for logical analysis is this, with arbitrary/non-commonsensical connections between components to force readers to attend strictly to the logic. . .
People who are described as enjoying blueberries are Anime lovers.
Joe has on his FBI profile "If Joe is on a train, he enjoys blueberries."
Therefore Joe is an Anime lover.
We can assert this definitively even though we have no idea if Joe is on a train. In fact likely he is not currently on a train. Nonetheless the first statement designates him as an Anime lover, since it only cares that there exists some condition that will describe him in the positive as enjoying blueberries.
It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.
They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around..
FMCs have two ways to move. They start the game in Gliding, they may choose during their movement to change to Swooping. Both are JUMP. You can repeat your "conditional" arguments all you want but you fail to show any way shape or form to how it stops them from being described as moving like jump.
FMCs do not start the game in gliding. FMCs that are deployed at the beginning of the game MUST be gliding at the beginning of turn 1. A FMC that comes in from reserves can CHOOSE. And a FMC that arrives via deepstrike must be swooping.
There is no default movement mode for a FMC at the start of the game, which would default them to their base rules. Sentence 1 "FMCs are MC with additional rules".
Not that FMC are MC. FMC are FMC. BUT, being FMC means all the same things that being a MC means with the addition of their bonus rules. Jink, Vectorstrike, deployment restrictions, and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.
How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.
Lance845 wrote: ....., and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.
And what mode are they in pre flight mode? They have no permission to be in any other
How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.
Which is irrelevant. Are they not described as moving like Jump during the game?
Lance845 wrote: ....., and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.
And what mode are they in pre flight mode? They have no permission to be in any other
This would be exactly the point. They have no permission to be in any flight mode. So they default to the baseline unit movement rules. "FMC are MC with a number of additional rules". They cannot reap the benefits of a flight mode if they are not in a flight mode.
How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.
Which is irrelevant. Are they not described as moving like Jump during the game?
They are, WHEN and IF they are in a flight mode. You cannot gain the benefits of a conditional from a conditional unless both conditionals are true.
A Positive and a Positive is a Positive. A Positive and a Negative is a Negative.
Go look at the MC Entry. Does it say MC move 6 inches during the movement phase? Does that mean MC cannot move at all? The FMC block does not need to describe that they have permission to move 6 inches during the movement phase if they do not have permission to enter a flight mode. The permission is already given by the other statements. FMC are MC. MC move like infantry. Without a flight mode active, rules as written, a FMC moves like infantry.
Lance845 wrote: Go look at the MC Entry. Does it say MC move 6 inches during the movement phase? Does that mean MC cannot move at all?
The MC rules do not list an exception to the movement rules. FMCs do. In fact a great many of the Unit types list exceptions. Bikes move 12", Cavalry 12". FMCs move as Jump MCs. Its the basic vs advanced rules. FMCs move like Jump MCs. You have yet to show a rule that says they do not.
Fragile wrote: FMCs move like Jump MCs. You have yet to show a rule that says they do not.
Again. This sentence does not appear in any rule book. It easily could have. The first sentence of the FMC entry could have been "FMC are Jump MC with a number of additional rules." It does not say that. At no point, in any sentence, on any page, does it say "FMC's move like jump MCs." It says "IF the FMC is Gliding..." "IF the FMC is Swooping..." Those sentences do not mean the same thing as
You have conditional statements that are talking about what happens when the FMC enters a very specific state. The FMC is not in that state before the game begins. Thus, FMC are MC with a number of additional rules.
You are assuming that because you have the 2 modes to choose from and that because before you move you have to pick one, that the rule must be a constant even before the game. But that is your assumption with no written language to support it. RAW is that before the FMC touches the table it's movement permissions are that of a MC.
It's stupid. I agree with that. Something with wings like that SHOULD be able to deepstrike. But that is Not what it SAYS.
You have conditional statements that are talking about what happens when the FMC enters a very specific state. The FMC is not in that state before the game begins. Thus, FMC are MC with a number of additional rules.
You are assuming that because you have the 2 modes to choose from and that because before you move you have to pick one, that the rule must be a constant even before the game. But that is your assumption with no written language to support it. RAW is that before the FMC touches the table it's movement permissions are that of a MC.
It's stupid. I agree with that. Something with wings like that SHOULD be able to deepstrike. But that is Not what it SAYS.
You are the one making assumptions. You are assuming that the Jump rule cares about the conditionals in the FMC rules.
However the Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Consider these two statements . . .
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In BOTH A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Therefore this rule is satisfied.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
That is all the JUMP rule cares about. The FMC rules are a completely different story. Something you have yet to even acknowledge the existence of.
Should we bother not considering conditions applied in other situations just because another situation does not? Should we just go ahead and Charge the turn a unit is Deep Striking, Arriving From Reserves, or Disembarking? Or should we just deny Charging to any unit that Infiltrates, Scouts, Deep Strikes, Arrives From Reserves, or Disembarks? Never mind if they have a rule that explicitly counters them, we're ignoring the conditions in which they are called.
Glad you agree that that is all the Jump rules care about. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied and Deep Strike is granted.
All of the other rules situations you mentioned make no use of "described as" in their rules so they are nonrelevant. In fact, the BRB includes no other "described as" statement aside from the Jump rule, so you will have difficulty coming up with a Sky Is Falling scenario.
They are relevant because of what we're talking about. Do you still just ignore conditions now?
You are saying, "yes", when we have no permission to do so before the model deploys.
I note you did not even try addressing the challenge of Blue Teeth. Still scared to be honest in your interpretation? Still cannot face the logic and RAW of the rules in the FMC rules?
Your Blue Teeth example is intentionally misleading since you are mixing commonsensical causal relations (e.g. blue teeth comes commonsensically from after eating blueberries) with the strict logical relations of "described as" in an attempt to confuse the reader by pitting commonsense against the task of evaluating the statements in terms of strict logic.
Incorrect. It either applies there as well as here, or it does not at all. I listed it exactly as the relationship between Jump and FMC.
I will be placing your answer as "Too scared to answer, because I know it causes my case to fail, epicly." You may excuse yourself from this discussion till you can bring your honest pants.
Fragile wrote:
Charistoph wrote: [snip.. Since FMC are not described as Jump when Reserves are announced, they do not have the Deep Strike rule. .
So your claim is that neither Gliding nor Swooping are described as Jump. Because you still have not shown where the Jump rule is not satisfied.
Models are described as moving like Jump when they move (which is during the Movement Phase). FMCs are Jump during every movement phase of the game.
Wow, that is not what I have stated at all. Would you like to actually review my case again and try that response again?
Fragile wrote:
Lance845 wrote: ....., and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.
And what mode are they in pre flight mode? They have no permission to be in any other
False, they do not have permission to be in Glide or Swoop mode until the model deploys. Can you provide the quote that states the FMC Glides or Swoops without attaching a condition to it?
Fragile wrote:
How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.
Which is irrelevant. Are they not described as moving like Jump during the game?
During the game, yes. Before the game when Reserves are announced, no.
Fragile wrote:
Lance845 wrote: Go look at the MC Entry. Does it say MC move 6 inches during the movement phase? Does that mean MC cannot move at all?
The MC rules do not list an exception to the movement rules. FMCs do. In fact a great many of the Unit types list exceptions. Bikes move 12", Cavalry 12". FMCs move as Jump MCs. Its the basic vs advanced rules. FMCs move like Jump MCs. You have yet to show a rule that says they do not.
Before they deploy? Sure, it's not hard, I've done it half a dozen times now.
You have conditional statements that are talking about what happens when the FMC enters a very specific state. The FMC is not in that state before the game begins. Thus, FMC are MC with a number of additional rules.
You are assuming that because you have the 2 modes to choose from and that because before you move you have to pick one, that the rule must be a constant even before the game. But that is your assumption with no written language to support it. RAW is that before the FMC touches the table it's movement permissions are that of a MC.
It's stupid. I agree with that. Something with wings like that SHOULD be able to deepstrike. But that is Not what it SAYS.
You are the one making assumptions. You are assuming that the Jump rule cares about the conditionals in the FMC rules.
However the Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Consider these two statements . . .
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In BOTH A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Therefore this rule is satisfied.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
That's just how the rules are written.
I understand your argument. Repeating it in the exact same way for 10 pages does not make it any clearer or any more correct.
The word If makes both the jump rule conditional and the FMC states conditional. "If a unit is described as moving like a jump blah blah" is a temporal statement. As was stated there is a marine unit in one of the codex's that can purchase jump packs. The jump pack makes the unit move, run, etc like a jump infantry. Excellent. A permanent bonus that takes effect on the unit at the point of purchase. THAT unit can deep strike. THAT unit is ALWAYS moving like a jump. The FMC is not. And I get that you are not taking the word if to imply a temporal state. That "If" must always be true for the benefit to always be true. I get it. I understand that is your argument. But that is not how English works. When If is there it requires the condition to be true at all times.
It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.
They are relevant because of what we're talking about. Do you still just ignore conditions now?
You are saying, "yes", when we have no permission to do so before the model deploys.
I pay attention to conditionals when the rules make them relevant.
If a rule is written such that conditionals on a description are not relevant, you cannot change the way the rule is written so that the conditionals are relevant. If you do that you are going against RAW.
Spoiler:
Consider these two statements . . .
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
In BOTH A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
Therefore this rule is satisfied.
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I understand your argument. Repeating it in the exact same way for 10 pages does not make it any clearer or any more correct.
The word If makes both the jump rule conditional and the FMC states conditional. "If a unit is described as moving like a jump blah blah" is a temporal statement. As was stated there is a marine unit in one of the codex's that can purchase jump packs. The jump pack makes the unit move, run, etc like a jump infantry. Excellent. A permanent bonus that takes effect on the unit at the point of purchase. THAT unit can deep strike. THAT unit is ALWAYS moving like a jump. The FMC is not. And I get that you are not taking the word if to imply a temporal state. That "If" must always be true for the benefit to always be true. I get it. I understand that is your argument. But that is not how English works. When If is there it requires the condition to be true at all times.
It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.
Does this statement describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature, yes or no?
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.
What rule are you quoting here? This is the rule in the BRB.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
No "if" in there. The rule has been quoted numerous times and you are still imagining words in the rule that are not there.
As stated before, if you do not adhere to the language and logic of the rule your argument is invalid.
