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2016/01/06 21:38:17
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Now review that statement, is when it Deep Strikes when it is put in Reserves?
When is the mc "in play"? When it touches the table or as it leaves reserves? The player chooses its flight mode "before it moves". Does it have no flight mode while in reserves? A FMC enters play swooping. If it is swooping AS it enters play then it has the deepstrike rule AS it enters play and can be placed on the table via deepstrike.
The problem is that Deep Strike Reserves is declared before any deploying or movement of the FMC in question can be performed. The rules for Flight Modes do not provide us access until the model is deployed or deploying, which is after the model may be put in Deep Strike Reserves.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement.
Your case example is all full of fail.
First, "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." is not a quote that appears anywhere in the Blood Angels codex.
Sure it is, 5th Edition Codex. Your search-fu is under fail. I referenced it before, please keep up.
col_impact wrote:Secondly, psychic blessings do not modify the description of units until they are manifested. You will need to show how the Librarian can manifest Wings of Sanguinius in reserves. The rules don't allow it so the blessing simply isn't modifying any description when it would need to be. This is different of course to the case of Swoop or Glide which are always on the FMC unit type description.
Correct. The conditions of the modification must be manifested before they are applied.
When is an FMC noted as being in either Glide Mode or Swooping Mode? Never until they are deployed or deploying, and then during the Movement Phase after that. We are not granted permission to apply this description of movement at any point before the model is deployed.
col_impact wrote:So again, please find a real case example this time Charistophe.
Find one yourself, I have already challenged you to. You have yet to do so, I provided a historical case and a hypothetical. I cannot think of any current case outside of the FMC/GMC that would apply at this current time, but I don't review the codices like I used to.
col_impact wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently Swooping or Gliding only that it is described as moving like a Jump unit in its unit type description. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
...
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
You are not allowed to ignore the use of 'described as' in the rule.
And you are not allowed to ignore Deployment or Flight Modes rules, either, but you continuously are.
col_impact wrote:
Lance845 wrote: And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
Incorrect. The rule does not care what current state the FMC is in, only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
We check the unit type description and see quite clearly that it is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. That is RAW.
Actually, the STATES care, because if the FMC is not in either state, it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
Temporary states do not continue beyond the scope of their rules. You have already stated that Pyschic Powers cannot do this, why do you insist Special Rules with triggers not fall under the same responsibility?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/06 21:42:14
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
A FMC is not described as moving like anything until it is in a flight mode. FMC do not move like jump infantry. A FMC who is gliding does. A FMC who is swooping does. A FMC who is not gliding or swooping is a mc with vector strike and jink.
This seems to be what everyone is ignoring. FMCare described as jump units when in swooping or gliding mode, but you're not allowed to choose either before deployment occurs, so it's kind of in a void.
.
Incorrect. They are always described as moving like Jump units. Glide and Swoop are on the FMC description and a unit type description is a static page in the BRB. However, they are of course not always currently moving like Jump units, but that is not what the rule cares about. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like Jump units. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
When is an FMC noted as being in either Glide Mode or Swooping Mode? Never until they are deployed or deploying, and then during the Movement Phase after that. We are not granted permission to apply this description of movement at any point before the model is deployed.
Incorrect. You are failing to adhere to the language and logic that the rule uses. The rule only cares that "moves like a Jump unit" is on the description and it does not care when that movement applies. Glide and Swoop are always on the physical page of the BRB where the FMC unit type is described. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:52:00
2016/01/06 21:53:52
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 22:06:44
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
2016/01/06 21:57:41
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Just check the unit type description for FMC. The rules don't care what state the FMC is currently in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:59:30
2016/01/06 22:06:53
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Just check the unit type description for FMC. The rules don't care what state the FMC is currently in.
I'd say this is an assumption, the rulebook never explicitly and unambiguously states that this is how it works. That is the core of the problem, as far as I can tell there is no pure RAW answer to this.
HIWPI is assume that your interpretation is correct as that seems to be RAI, but if we're simply looking at RAW from a nitpicking technical perspective, both sides have valid arguments.
2016/01/06 22:09:19
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
but the argument is obviously not that the jump rules say B, but that A is not true until conditions are met. which just happen to indirectly require the unit to move
It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Just check the unit type description for FMC. The rules don't care what state the FMC is currently in.
I'd say this is an assumption, the rulebook never explicitly and unambiguously states that this is how it works. That is the core of the problem, as far as I can tell there is no pure RAW answer to this.
HIWPI is assume that your interpretation is correct as that seems to be RAI, but if we're simply looking at RAW from a nitpicking technical perspective, both sides have valid arguments.
It's not an assumption. My argument is backed by the rules.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
Also my argument is the only one that deals with the actual language and logic in the rule itself. So I am the only one that can claim RAW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 22:12:30
2016/01/06 22:12:48
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 22:24:08
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 22:25:35
2016/01/06 22:28:04
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
2016/01/06 22:30:46
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Frozocrone wrote: Thread needs locking. I posted both stances on the first page and since then there has been no substantial developments to arguments. Instead, it has basically been a thread on who can shout louder.
Agreed.
2016/01/06 22:30:53
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A and B are logically very different however and only one of them is in the actual rule book.
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 22:37:30
2016/01/06 22:39:38
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Things can only be described at "moving like Jump" when they actually move. Claiming they cannot move in Reserves is irrelevant because nothing can move in Reserves. Models "move" when they are on the table.
2016/01/06 22:39:48
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A and B are logically very different however and only one of them is in the actual rule book.
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
please stop repeating this. no-one is saying B is in the rules. they are saying A fails the check until the unit has declared a flight mode.
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
2016/01/06 22:43:10
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
This has basically been the entire thread.
It's an interesting discussion, but so far it's mostly just been yelling. My goal was to try and get people to acknowledge the other side of the argument in order to try and make some progress on this, but so far it's not worked well.
2016/01/06 22:43:23
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A and B are logically very different however and only one of them is in the actual rule book.
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
please stop repeating this. no-one is saying B is in the rules. they are saying A fails the check until the unit has declared a flight mode.
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
A cannot fail the check. A is only checking to see if something is on the unit type description. Glide and Swoop are always on the unit type description. The FMC is indeed found to be described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 22:46:20
2016/01/06 22:46:01
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
Actually it does adhere to the language of the rules involved with describing the FMC moving like a Jump MC. You've quoted and ignored it at least six times now.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/06 22:48:33
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually the rules do explicitly state it. A FMC is a mc with number of additional rules. None of those rules state that it's movement is inherently different. But they do grant permission to enter and set conditions for when they can enter specific flight modes. Which then grant other modifications. Before those modes are entered the FMC page specifically tells you they are mc and follow the rules for mc.
The rule does not care what Flight mode is currently active. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. All we have to do is look at the unit type description to assert that indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
Actually it does adhere to the language of the rules involved with describing the FMC moving like a Jump MC. You've quoted and ignored it at least six times now.
Cool, so then you agree that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. That means the FMC has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 22:53:36
2016/01/06 22:53:22
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
This has basically been the entire thread.
It's an interesting discussion, but so far it's mostly just been yelling. My goal was to try and get people to acknowledge the other side of the argument in order to try and make some progress on this, but so far it's not worked well.
I appreciate the discussion. I started on one side thinking they all could until I re-read everything. It seems to be very clear when and under what circumstances the rules apply. The issue isn't even that upon leaving deep strike reserve it would enter a mode. The issue is it needs the rule before the game even begins so that it can be declared to the opponent that the FMC would be arriving via deepstrike. The model needs the rule before the game begins. Nothing grants the model a flight mode from reserve at that stage.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 22:56:36
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
you say thats false, they it's true. If your argument has failed to get your point across, stop using it
that goes for the rest of you too.
This has basically been the entire thread.
It's an interesting discussion, but so far it's mostly just been yelling. My goal was to try and get people to acknowledge the other side of the argument in order to try and make some progress on this, but so far it's not worked well.
I appreciate the discussion. I started on one side thinking they all could until I re-read everything. It seems to be very clear when and under what circumstances the rules apply. The issue isn't even that upon leaving deep strike reserve it would enter a mode. The issue is it needs the rule before the game even begins so that it can be declared to the opponent that the FMC would be arriving via deepstrike. The model needs the rule before the game begins. Nothing grants the model a flight mode from reserve at that stage.
The Swoop and Glide rules are on the unit type description. Therefore they are always descriptive of the FMC even while not actually in effect. The rules only care if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit not whether it is currently moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them
We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 23:03:23
2016/01/06 23:01:52
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 23:04:18
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
I am the only one who has a RAW argument and understands what "described as" logically means.
2016/01/06 23:08:27
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
I am the only one who has a RAW argument and understands what "described as" logically means.
actually i don't believe you do.
2016/01/06 23:18:09
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Reposting the same flawed argument over and over does not make you correct. Almost every other person is having an actual discussion. You single handedly are ruining that discussion.
I am the only one who has a RAW argument and understands what "described as" logically means.
actually i don't believe you do.
You can believe what you want but the rules that back my argument believe otherwise.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
The rule only asks if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It does not ask whether or not the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
This rule tells us to look at the FMC unit type section for where the FMC is described.
Here is the FMC unit type description . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
In that description, the FMC are described as moving like Jump MC.
The rules tell us that Jump MC count as Jump units and MC.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
It can be unequivocally asserted that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 23:27:14
2016/01/06 23:35:03
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Kambien his point is that because, in the FMC description, under some circumstances they are described as moving like jump mc that they are always treated as jump mc. It doesn't matter that they are jump mc only some of the time. Being described as jump at ANY time means you gain all the benefits of jump ALL the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/07 00:21:28
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/07 00:46:07
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Until a flight mode is selected, the FMC moves like an MC, which follows the movement of Infantry unless otherwise specified(if memory serves). So there is a case to be made for them not getting DS as while they are in reserves they are described as moving like infantry.
That case doesn't adhere to the actual language and logic of the rule itself. That case ignores "decribed as" and conflates rule A and rule B.
Actually it does adhere to the language of the rules involved with describing the FMC moving like a Jump MC. You've quoted and ignored it at least six times now.
Cool, so then you agree that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. That means the FMC has Deep Strike.
That has never really actually been in doubt, the problem is WHEN it is described as moving like a Jump unit and thus gains Deep Strike.
Let's look at the rules you keep quoting and ignoring:
col_impact wrote:Here is the FMC unit type description . . .
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are essentially ferocious living aircraft. Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn. A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
It can be unequivocally asserted that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/07 00:47:03
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/07 01:14:34
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.
Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).
Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.
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