Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.

I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.

Incorrect FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units twice in their description. However they only move like Jump Units if they are gliding or swooping.

Charistoph wrote:

While Jump's condition is that they are described as moving like a Jump unit, FMC's conditions to be described as moving like Jump unit is IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.

Incorrect. You continue to fail to use "described as" correctly and continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rules. Your whole argument is invalid.

"Described as" is condition on the Jump rule. However, "described as" is not a phrase that the FMC rules use at all, so obviously the FMC rules can apply no condition on "described as".

The FMC rules tell us that the FMC moves like Jump when it glides. The FMC rules DO NOT tell us that the FMC is 'described as' anything. The FMC rules do not contain the word "describe".

What describes the FMC then?

The rulebook tells us that the Unit Types section is where we look for were FMCs are described.



The portion of the Unit Types section under Flying Monstrous Creatures is where the FMC is described. Collectively the information under that heading is a Unit Type description that describes the FMC.

In that Unit Type description for the FMC we find a rule that reads thusly . . .



In that statement the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The statement contains conditionals but whether or not the conditions are satisfied the FMC is still described as moving like a Jump unit by the statement.

Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

That is simply the way the logic of "described as" works and we must adhere to that logic. Anyone who does not like how loose the logic of "described as" is can e-mail GW to express their dissatisfaction with the rule. Meanwhile the way the rule is written is clear and we must follow it.

Therefore this rule is satisfied.



The rule does not care when the FMC is moving like a Jump unit, only that it is indeed "described as" moving like a Jump unit. Indeed, the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.

I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.

Incorrect FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units twice in their description. However they only move like Jump Units if they are gliding or swooping.

By all means, post the third method that FMCs are allowed to move... we are still waiting 9 pages later......

To be honest Fragile, I think your request is completely irrelevant, as the FMC has no state prior to deployment. Much in the same way that a model with rules at the start of the turn do not get to use them prior to appearance on the table. For example many of the psychic powers cannot be manifested until the model is deployed.

As in this case, the movement state of the FMC cannot be determined until it is deployed ie swooping or gliding and as such determines that it is a JMC and as such has additional rules pertaining to jump. But the act of deployment is after the determination of DSR.

As I said earlier, I think this is sloppy rules writing on behalf of GW and not as intended, infact had the rules been written as "FMCs are JMC that can only move in one of two methods" then there is no argument they can DS, but the rules are written as FMCs can only move in one of two methods, when using one of those methods they move as JMCs.

Cheers

Andrew

Nor does it ever need a state Andrew. There is no movement in deployment nor in reserves. FMCs do not suddenly change from a MC to a FMC at the start of the first turn. They are always FMCs and are always described as moving like Jump. They are just capable of a choice of which type of Jump they can do when they move.

Fragile wrote:
Nor does it ever need a state Andrew. There is no movement in deployment nor in reserves. FMCs do not suddenly change from a MC to a FMC at the start of the first turn. They are always FMCs and are always described as moving like Jump. They are just capable of a choice of which type of Jump they can do when they move.

Unfortunately in this case they need a movement state in order to access the Jump rules as described in their unit profile. As you correctly point out, they are capable of a choice of which type of jump they can do when they move IF they glide or swoop. But they are incapable of making that choice prior to the decision to move models into DSR.

That timing discrepancy is what, in my opinion, restricts FMCs from DSing. GW has put the rules in the wrong order.

Cheers

Andrew

None of that matters to the Jump rule though.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Quite Correct. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
.

I didnt see "Transformer" in their rules. So they walk onto the battlefield then sprout wings and become FMCs to fly? No.

There is no 3rd movement mode. They either Glide or Swoop at all times. The conditional you keep citing is to show they cannot do both at the same time.

Quote where it states that they either Glide or Swoop at ALL times.

The conditions I quote are not arguing that they do both. What I have stated is:
1) FMC rules place restrictions on moving like a Jump MC.
2) FMC rules are only describe as moving like a Jump MC if the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.
3) FMC rules are only noted as Gliding or Swooping when they deploy and at the beginning of the Movement Phase.
4) No state is recorded before the FMC deploys nor considered the "default" of the FMC. The closest is that they are Monstrous Creatures with extra rules, which counts as a 3rd Movement Profile (Jump Profile comes with 2 movement Profiles, the "Jumping" and the "one of the other type").

FlingitNow wrote:

Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.

I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.

Incorrect FMCs are described as moving like Jump Units twice in their description. However they only move like Jump Units if they are gliding or swooping.

I can't tell if you are trolling on this one.

Can you find any other description of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules and are not dependent on an "if" statement?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

While Jump's condition is that they are described as moving like a Jump unit, FMC's conditions to be described as moving like Jump unit is IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.

Incorrect. You continue to fail to use "described as" correctly and continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rules. Your whole argument is invalid.

Quite Correct. Let me quote it for you, AGAIN:

And I do not recognize any such rejection of any conditions in any use of "described as" without other phrases involved, nor do I find them in the Jump unit type's rules.

col_impact wrote:Same nonsensical b.s. that ignores the conditions set forth by the unit type in question

When you get your act together on this and start recognizing the conditions in play and start addressing them, I will again start addressing your arguments again. At this point, you are just trawling the same line over and over again.

Fragile wrote:Nor does it ever need a state Andrew. There is no movement in deployment nor in reserves. FMCs do not suddenly change from a MC to a FMC at the start of the first turn. They are always FMCs and are always described as moving like Jump. They are just capable of a choice of which type of Jump they can do when they move.

It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.

They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around.

If you can find any movement or connection with Jump Monstrous Creatures that do not rely on a condition, like "If the Flying Monstrous Creature is...", please share with the rest of the class, and we can put this to rest.

Otherwise, if dealing only with RAW, I must stand by this concept that FMCs do not natively have the Deep Strike rule until they Deploy.

Fragile wrote:None of that matters to the Jump rule though.

But it DOES matter to the FMC rules. If we were looking at Jump rules alone, or if conditions were not applied to the movement described as "Jump", this would be pointless. Yet, there they are.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:Same nonsensical b.s. that ignores the conditions set forth by the unit type in question

When you get your act together on this and start recognizing the conditions in play and start addressing them, I will again start addressing your arguments again. At this point, you are just trawling the same line over and over again.

The stuff that you call 'nonsensical b.s.' is the language and logic of the Jump rule in question. You continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rule in question. Therefore your argument is invalid.
Until you start adhering to the language and logic of the rule, your argument will remain invalid. If you are tired of having the critique repeated I suggest you address the critique and start adhering to the language and logic of the Jump rule in question.

This is the Jump rule in question . . .



The Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Because of its use of "described as", the rule does not care about the conditionals in the FMC rules you keep pointing at. The rule does not care about when the FMC moves like a Jump unit. The rule only cares that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

That is simply the way the logic of "described as" works and we must adhere to that logic. The way the rule is written is clear and we must follow it.


We know that the unit type description for the FMC indeed describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore this rule is satisfied.



Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:Same nonsensical b.s. that ignores the conditions set forth by the unit type in question

When you get your act together on this and start recognizing the conditions in play and start addressing them, I will again start addressing your arguments again. At this point, you are just trawling the same line over and over again.

The stuff that you call 'nonsensical b.s.' is the language and logic of the Jump rule in question. You continue to fail to adhere to the language and logic of the rule in question. Therefore your argument is invalid.
Until you start adhering to the language and logic of the rule, your argument will remain invalid. If you are tired of having the critique repeated I suggest you address the critique and start adhering to the language and logic of the Jump rule in question.

Until you start adhering to the language and logic of the rules in the Flying Monstrous Creature unit type, your case is nonsensical b.s.

col_impact wrote:
Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

A is conditional, B is not. A is in the rulebook, B is not. Until the condition of A is fulfilled, the status and description of its Jump movement is not fulfilled and not in play.

This is what is meant by conditional. And until you recognize this status or find specific wording to ignore the conditions, your case is as null, void, and nonsensical as Fearless affecting Invisibility.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

A is conditional, B is not. A is in the rulebook, B is not. Until the condition of A is fulfilled, the status and description of its Jump movement is not fulfilled and not in play.

This is what is meant by conditional. And until you recognize this status or find specific wording to ignore the conditions, your case is as null, void, and nonsensical as Fearless affecting Invisibility.

And yet BOTH A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

This rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The rule does not care when the FMC is moving like a Jump unit, only that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

We can look at the unit type description for the FMC and plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the Jump rule in question is satisfied and the FMC has Deep Strike.

In order for you to have a RAW argument you need to adhere strictly to the language and logic of the rule. You are not adhering to the language and logic and therefore are house ruling. Mark your posts HYWPI. I will stick with the rules as they are written.

I can't tell if you are trolling on this one. 

: 

GLIDING 
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. 

SWOOPING 
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...


Can you find any other description of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules and are not dependent on an "if" statement? 

Why would I need to? The Jump Unit rule cares not for if they are moving like Jump Units, only if there exists a description that describes as such. Which there undeniably is, indeed there are 2 such descriptions as you have just quoted. Now prove that neither of those descriptions appears in the FMC rules page and paragraph.

Charistoph wrote:

It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.

They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around..

FMCs have two ways to move. They start the game in Gliding, they may choose during their movement to change to Swooping. Both are JUMP. You can repeat your "conditional" arguments all you want but you fail to show any way shape or form to how it stops them from being described as moving like jump.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

A is conditional, B is not. A is in the rulebook, B is not. Until the condition of A is fulfilled, the status and description of its Jump movement is not fulfilled and not in play.

This is what is meant by conditional. And until you recognize this status or find specific wording to ignore the conditions, your case is as null, void, and nonsensical as Fearless affecting Invisibility.

And yet BOTH A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

This rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

The rule does not care when the FMC is moving like a Jump unit, only that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

We can look at the unit type description for the FMC and plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the Jump rule in question is satisfied and the FMC has Deep Strike.

In order for you to have a RAW argument you need to adhere strictly to the language and logic of the rule. You are not adhering to the language and logic and therefore are house ruling. Mark your posts HYWPI. I will stick with the rules as they are written.

Yes, A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.

BUT, A is with a condition, and it is a condition that the FMC rules care about. The FMC's rules only describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit while Gliding and Swooping. That is the RAW. End of Story.

If a person is described as eating blueberries, they will have blue teeth.

If person Joe eats a blueberry pie, they will be considered to be eating blueberries.

Does this statement means that Joe has blue teeth?

FlingitNow wrote:

I can't tell if you are trolling on this one. 
: 
GLIDING 
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. 

SWOOPING 
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...

Can you find any other description of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules and are not dependent on an "if" statement? 

Why would I need to? The Jump Unit rule cares not for if they are moving like Jump Units, only if there exists a description that describes as such. Which there undeniably is, indeed there are 2 such descriptions as you have just quoted. Now prove that neither of those descriptions appears in the FMC rules page and paragraph.

Because the FMC's rules place the description under a condition. So in order for that status to be viable, the condition must be met. Do you allow Fearless models to automatically pass ALL Leadership Tests? Do you believe a Skyhammer Devastator Squad is Relentless for the entire game? If not, then why?

If a person is described as eating blueberries, they will have blue teeth.

If person Joe eats a blueberry pie, they will be considered to be eating blueberries.

Does this statement means that Joe has blue teeth?

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.

They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around..

FMCs have two ways to move. They start the game in Gliding, they may choose during their movement to change to Swooping. Both are JUMP. You can repeat your "conditional" arguments all you want but you fail to show any way shape or form to how it stops them from being described as moving like jump.

Correct, they START the game Gliding. They DEPLOY as either Gliding or Swooping. So, they are Jump when they start the game. They are Jump when they Deploy.

No status applies to the FMC to consider them as Jump at any point before then, unless you can properly quote the passage that says otherwise.

Except described as is itself uncinditional - it dies not care how much, or when , a model is described as "jump", just that it is described a such. And, without question, it IS described as such.

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Between this line and the deployment assignments. There is no time at all, during an entire game turn, that the FMC is not assigned to glide or swoop and are therefore described as moving like jump. The fact that you think some type of movement has to be assigned to the unit during a point of time that is not included in any game turn where no movement can ever happen in the game by anything matters is mind boggling.

The conditional in the glide and swoop rules is only there because you can never be in glide or swoop mode at the same time. Not because there is some third default state.

During every game turn from start to finish, the FMC is not allowed to move in any other fashion then glide or swoop.

Charistoph wrote:
Yes, A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.

BUT, A is with a condition, and it is a condition that the FMC rules care about. The FMC's rules only describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit while Gliding and Swooping. That is the RAW. End of Story.

Great. You have just agreed (in the red) that both A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.

That is all this rule cares about . . .



As you have pointed out both A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

That's just the rule as it is written. If you have a problem with how the rule is written maybe you can talk it over with your opponent to see if you want to house rule it to say something different.

Charistoph wrote:

Correct, they START the game Gliding. They DEPLOY as either Gliding or Swooping. So, they are Jump when they start the game. They are Jump when they Deploy.

No status applies to the FMC to consider them as Jump at any point before then, unless you can properly quote the passage that says otherwise.

They start the game as a Jump, and are Jump throughout the game.

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

How is that not moving like Jump? Where is the contradiction?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except described as is itself uncinditional - it dies not care how much, or when , a model is described as "jump", just that it is described a such. And, without question, it IS described as such.

So, when something is "described as" we ignore any condition when the "described as" occurs?

As I keep pointing out and NO ONE HAS ADDRESSED.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Yes, A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.

BUT, A is with a condition, and it is a condition that the FMC rules care about. The FMC's rules only describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit while Gliding and Swooping. That is the RAW. End of Story.

Great. You have just agreed (in the red) that both A and B both describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit.

That is all this rule cares about . . .

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

As you have pointed out both A and B describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

That's just the rule as it is written. If you have a problem with how the rule is written maybe you can talk it over with your opponent to see if you want to house rule it to say something different.

That is all the JUMP rule cares about. The FMC rules are a completely different story. Something you have yet to even acknowledge the existence of.

Should we bother not considering conditions applied in other situations just because another situation does not? Should we just go ahead and Charge the turn a unit is Deep Striking, Arriving From Reserves, or Disembarking? Or should we just deny Charging to any unit that Infiltrates, Scouts, Deep Strikes, Arrives From Reserves, or Disembarks? Never mind if they have a rule that explicitly counters them, we're ignoring the conditions in which they are called.

I note you did not even try addressing the challenge of Blue Teeth. Still scared to be honest in your interpretation? Still cannot face the logic and RAW of the rules in the FMC rules?

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Correct, they START the game Gliding. They DEPLOY as either Gliding or Swooping. So, they are Jump when they start the game. They are Jump when they Deploy.

No status applies to the FMC to consider them as Jump at any point before then, unless you can properly quote the passage that says otherwise.

They start the game as a Jump, and are Jump throughout the game.

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

How is that not moving like Jump? Where is the contradiction?

No contradiction. The question is if they can Deep Strike natively.

They are Jump when they Deploy. They are Jump when they announce their Movement in the Movement Phase. Nothing defines or describes them as Jump before they are deployed.

In order to Deep Strike, they must have the Deep Strike rule (or be required to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, at least, per Drop Pod precedence). In order to Deep Strike, they must be put in Reserves and announced to be Deep Striking.

Since FMC are not described as Jump when Reserves are announced, they do not have the Deep Strike rule. If they do not have the Deep Strike rule, they cannot be placed in to Deep Strike Reserves.

Unfortunately, by the time FMC's gain any type of description of moving like a Jump unit, Reserves have already been declared and the FMC is deployed. The rulebook does not provide a way for a deployed model to undeploy and go in to Reserves. The closest opportunity for all FMCs is going in to Ongoing Reserves, but this doesn't help if you are intending for the FMC to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves like Drop Pods and Deathwing detachments do.

Charistoph wrote:

That is all the JUMP rule cares about. The FMC rules are a completely different story. Something you have yet to even acknowledge the existence of.

Should we bother not considering conditions applied in other situations just because another situation does not? Should we just go ahead and Charge the turn a unit is Deep Striking, Arriving From Reserves, or Disembarking? Or should we just deny Charging to any unit that Infiltrates, Scouts, Deep Strikes, Arrives From Reserves, or Disembarks? Never mind if they have a rule that explicitly counters them, we're ignoring the conditions in which they are called.

Glad you agree that that is all the Jump rules care about. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied and Deep Strike is granted.

All of the other rules situations you mentioned make no use of "described as" in their rules so they are nonrelevant. In fact, the BRB includes no other "described as" statement aside from the Jump rule, so you will have difficulty coming up with a Sky Is Falling scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

I note you did not even try addressing the challenge of Blue Teeth. Still scared to be honest in your interpretation? Still cannot face the logic and RAW of the rules in the FMC rules?

Your Blue Teeth example is intentionally misleading since you are mixing commonsensical causal relations (e.g. blue teeth comes commonsensically from after eating blueberries) with the strict logical relations of "described as" in an attempt to confuse the reader by pitting commonsense against the task of evaluating the statements in terms of strict logic.

The correct way to pose the question for logical analysis is this, with arbitrary/non-commonsensical connections between components to force readers to attend strictly to the logic. . .

People who are described as enjoying blueberries are Anime lovers.

Joe has on his FBI profile "If Joe is on a train, he enjoys blueberries."

Therefore Joe is an Anime lover.

We can assert this definitively even though we have no idea if Joe is on a train. In fact likely he is not currently on a train. Nonetheless the first statement designates him as an Anime lover, since it only cares that there exists some condition that will describe him in the positive as enjoying blueberries.

Charistoph wrote:
[snip.. Since FMC are not described as Jump when Reserves are announced, they do not have the Deep Strike rule. .

So your claim is that neither Gliding nor Swooping are described as Jump. Because you still have not shown where the Jump rule is not satisfied.

Models are described as moving like Jump when they move (which is during the Movement Phase). FMCs are Jump during every movement phase of the game.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It's not a change from MC to FMC at the start of the turn. And no, they are not ALWAYS described as moving like Jump.

They are only described as moving like Jump when they are Gliding or Swooping. FMCs are not noted as having either as a "default" condition. The first time we apply either is when they are deployed. We then have to choose between them when Movement Phases come around..

FMCs have two ways to move. They start the game in Gliding, they may choose during their movement to change to Swooping. Both are JUMP. You can repeat your "conditional" arguments all you want but you fail to show any way shape or form to how it stops them from being described as moving like jump.

FMCs do not start the game in gliding. FMCs that are deployed at the beginning of the game MUST be gliding at the beginning of turn 1. A FMC that comes in from reserves can CHOOSE. And a FMC that arrives via deepstrike must be swooping.

There is no default movement mode for a FMC at the start of the game, which would default them to their base rules. Sentence 1 "FMCs are MC with additional rules".

Not that FMC are MC. FMC are FMC. BUT, being FMC means all the same things that being a MC means with the addition of their bonus rules. Jink, Vectorstrike, deployment restrictions, and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.

How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.

Lance845 wrote:
....., and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.

And what mode are they in pre flight mode? They have no permission to be in any other

How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.

Which is irrelevant. Are they not described as moving like Jump during the game?

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
....., and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.

And what mode are they in pre flight mode? They have no permission to be in any other

This would be exactly the point. They have no permission to be in any flight mode. So they default to the baseline unit movement rules. "FMC are MC with a number of additional rules". They cannot reap the benefits of a flight mode if they are not in a flight mode.

How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.

Which is irrelevant. Are they not described as moving like Jump during the game?

They are, WHEN and IF they are in a flight mode. You cannot gain the benefits of a conditional from a conditional unless both conditionals are true.

A Positive and a Positive is a Positive. A Positive and a Negative is a Negative.

Go look at the MC Entry. Does it say MC move 6 inches during the movement phase? Does that mean MC cannot move at all? The FMC block does not need to describe that they have permission to move 6 inches during the movement phase if they do not have permission to enter a flight mode. The permission is already given by the other statements. FMC are MC. MC move like infantry. Without a flight mode active, rules as written, a FMC moves like infantry.

Lance845 wrote:
Go look at the MC Entry. Does it say MC move 6 inches during the movement phase? Does that mean MC cannot move at all?

The MC rules do not list an exception to the movement rules. FMCs do. In fact a great many of the Unit types list exceptions. Bikes move 12", Cavalry 12". FMCs move as Jump MCs. Its the basic vs advanced rules. FMCs move like Jump MCs. You have yet to show a rule that says they do not.

Fragile wrote:
FMCs move like Jump MCs. You have yet to show a rule that says they do not.

Again. This sentence does not appear in any rule book. It easily could have. The first sentence of the FMC entry could have been "FMC are Jump MC with a number of additional rules." It does not say that. At no point, in any sentence, on any page, does it say "FMC's move like jump MCs." It says "IF the FMC is Gliding..." "IF the FMC is Swooping..." Those sentences do not mean the same thing as

Fragile wrote:
FMCs move like Jump MCs.

You have conditional statements that are talking about what happens when the FMC enters a very specific state. The FMC is not in that state before the game begins. Thus, FMC are MC with a number of additional rules.

You are assuming that because you have the 2 modes to choose from and that because before you move you have to pick one, that the rule must be a constant even before the game. But that is your assumption with no written language to support it. RAW is that before the FMC touches the table it's movement permissions are that of a MC.

It's stupid. I agree with that. Something with wings like that SHOULD be able to deepstrike. But that is Not what it SAYS.

Lance845 wrote:

You have conditional statements that are talking about what happens when the FMC enters a very specific state. The FMC is not in that state before the game begins. Thus, FMC are MC with a number of additional rules.

You are assuming that because you have the 2 modes to choose from and that because before you move you have to pick one, that the rule must be a constant even before the game. But that is your assumption with no written language to support it. RAW is that before the FMC touches the table it's movement permissions are that of a MC.

It's stupid. I agree with that. Something with wings like that SHOULD be able to deepstrike. But that is Not what it SAYS.

You are the one making assumptions. You are assuming that the Jump rule cares about the conditionals in the FMC rules.

However the Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.



Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In BOTH A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Therefore this rule is satisfied.



Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

That's just how the rules are written.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

That is all the JUMP rule cares about. The FMC rules are a completely different story. Something you have yet to even acknowledge the existence of.

Should we bother not considering conditions applied in other situations just because another situation does not? Should we just go ahead and Charge the turn a unit is Deep Striking, Arriving From Reserves, or Disembarking? Or should we just deny Charging to any unit that Infiltrates, Scouts, Deep Strikes, Arrives From Reserves, or Disembarks? Never mind if they have a rule that explicitly counters them, we're ignoring the conditions in which they are called.

Glad you agree that that is all the Jump rules care about. Therefore the Jump rule is satisfied and Deep Strike is granted.

All of the other rules situations you mentioned make no use of "described as" in their rules so they are nonrelevant. In fact, the BRB includes no other "described as" statement aside from the Jump rule, so you will have difficulty coming up with a Sky Is Falling scenario.

They are relevant because of what we're talking about. Do you still just ignore conditions now?

You are saying, "yes", when we have no permission to do so before the model deploys.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

I note you did not even try addressing the challenge of Blue Teeth. Still scared to be honest in your interpretation? Still cannot face the logic and RAW of the rules in the FMC rules?

Your Blue Teeth example is intentionally misleading since you are mixing commonsensical causal relations (e.g. blue teeth comes commonsensically from after eating blueberries) with the strict logical relations of "described as" in an attempt to confuse the reader by pitting commonsense against the task of evaluating the statements in terms of strict logic.

Incorrect. It either applies there as well as here, or it does not at all. I listed it exactly as the relationship between Jump and FMC.

I will be placing your answer as "Too scared to answer, because I know it causes my case to fail, epicly." You may excuse yourself from this discussion till you can bring your honest pants.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
[snip.. Since FMC are not described as Jump when Reserves are announced, they do not have the Deep Strike rule. .

So your claim is that neither Gliding nor Swooping are described as Jump. Because you still have not shown where the Jump rule is not satisfied.

Models are described as moving like Jump when they move (which is during the Movement Phase). FMCs are Jump during every movement phase of the game.

Wow, that is not what I have stated at all. Would you like to actually review my case again and try that response again?

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
....., and ability to enter flight modes and the restrictions and requirements for how and WHEN those modes come into effect.

And what mode are they in pre flight mode? They have no permission to be in any other

False, they do not have permission to be in Glide or Swoop mode until the model deploys. Can you provide the quote that states the FMC Glides or Swoops without attaching a condition to it?

Fragile wrote:

How and When are very important here. They have no permission to be in any flight mode before the game begins. Which means they have the movement permissions of a MC, Not a Jump MC when they could be placed in reserves.

Which is irrelevant. Are they not described as moving like Jump during the game?

During the game, yes. Before the game when Reserves are announced, no.

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Go look at the MC Entry. Does it say MC move 6 inches during the movement phase? Does that mean MC cannot move at all?

The MC rules do not list an exception to the movement rules. FMCs do. In fact a great many of the Unit types list exceptions. Bikes move 12", Cavalry 12". FMCs move as Jump MCs. Its the basic vs advanced rules. FMCs move like Jump MCs. You have yet to show a rule that says they do not.

Before they deploy? Sure, it's not hard, I've done it half a dozen times now.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

You have conditional statements that are talking about what happens when the FMC enters a very specific state. The FMC is not in that state before the game begins. Thus, FMC are MC with a number of additional rules.

You are assuming that because you have the 2 modes to choose from and that because before you move you have to pick one, that the rule must be a constant even before the game. But that is your assumption with no written language to support it. RAW is that before the FMC touches the table it's movement permissions are that of a MC.

It's stupid. I agree with that. Something with wings like that SHOULD be able to deepstrike. But that is Not what it SAYS.

You are the one making assumptions. You are assuming that the Jump rule cares about the conditionals in the FMC rules.

However the Jump rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Consider these two statements . . .

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

B) The Flying Monstrous Creature moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In BOTH A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature. The presence or absence of conditionals does not change whether or not the statement describes the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Therefore this rule is satisfied.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

That's just how the rules are written.

I understand your argument. Repeating it in the exact same way for 10 pages does not make it any clearer or any more correct.

The word If makes both the jump rule conditional and the FMC states conditional. "If a unit is described as moving like a jump blah blah" is a temporal statement. As was stated there is a marine unit in one of the codex's that can purchase jump packs. The jump pack makes the unit move, run, etc like a jump infantry. Excellent. A permanent bonus that takes effect on the unit at the point of purchase. THAT unit can deep strike. THAT unit is ALWAYS moving like a jump. The FMC is not. And I get that you are not taking the word if to imply a temporal state. That "If" must always be true for the benefit to always be true. I get it. I understand that is your argument. But that is not how English works. When If is there it requires the condition to be true at all times.

It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.

Charistoph wrote:

They are relevant because of what we're talking about. Do you still just ignore conditions now?

You are saying, "yes", when we have no permission to do so before the model deploys.

I pay attention to conditionals when the rules make them relevant.

If a rule is written such that conditionals on a description are not relevant, you cannot change the way the rule is written so that the conditionals are relevant. If you do that you are going against RAW.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:


I understand your argument. Repeating it in the exact same way for 10 pages does not make it any clearer or any more correct.

The word If makes both the jump rule conditional and the FMC states conditional. "If a unit is described as moving like a jump blah blah" is a temporal statement. As was stated there is a marine unit in one of the codex's that can purchase jump packs. The jump pack makes the unit move, run, etc like a jump infantry. Excellent. A permanent bonus that takes effect on the unit at the point of purchase. THAT unit can deep strike. THAT unit is ALWAYS moving like a jump. The FMC is not. And I get that you are not taking the word if to imply a temporal state. That "If" must always be true for the benefit to always be true. I get it. I understand that is your argument. But that is not how English works. When If is there it requires the condition to be true at all times.

It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.

Does this statement describe the FMC as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature, yes or no?

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:


It does not say "If a unit is ever described as moving... than it is a jump" It says "if it is described" That is a temporal statment that requires the condition to constantly be true for the effect to constantly be in effect.

What rule are you quoting here? This is the rule in the BRB.



No "if" in there. The rule has been quoted numerous times and you are still imagining words in the rule that are not there.

As stated before, if you do not adhere to the language and logic of the rule your argument is invalid.