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Lusiphur wrote:A FMC is not a MC that transforms into a FMC during the movement phase. It is always a FMC even during deployment, therefore it is never allowed to move in any fashion during the movement phase as anything other then a FMC can and both modes are described as using the jump rules.

And since all that is needed to access all the rules for jump is to be described as using the jump rules for it's movement it gains all the rules for jump prior to deployment

Incorrect. Either a rule is always active on a model, or it has a trigger. A rule that is always active on the FMC is Relentless. Flight Modes are not listed in this fashion. Instead, Flight Modes are provided when the model is deployed and can be changed in the Movement Phase. We are given permission for nothing else.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

And so a unit that has a rule that they can move like a Jump Infantry only in the Assault Phase can instead move like Jump Infantry all the time and Deep Strike? When a Special Rule is available has no bearing and is irrelevant?

A Skyhammer Devastator will be Relentless all game at that point. Jump Units will have Hammer of Wrath even if they do not use their Jump Packs to Charge. I can Infiltrate my Infiltrators at any point in the game. I can Veil of Darkness my Deathmarks and they can use Ethereal Interception and Hunters from Hyperspace all at the same time!

Please tell me you have some sense of the temporal nature of the rules?

You still have yet to properly address most of the challenges presented to you. You also keep ignoring a good portion of the FMC's rules. Scared?

Also, you REALLY need to learn how to edit your copy & paste. It really takes up unnecessary space.

None of your Chicken Little arguments are relevant to a RAW discussion. In a RAW discussion we deal with the rules as they are written.

Indeed we are. My "Chicken Little" arguments (while not even close to being an accurate description, I am not declaring an end of the world) are relevant because I am providing a case are talking about triggers and timing. You have yet to provide any proper argument that the timing or trigger is not valid, nor choose to answer any challenge regarding them.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. You are not allowed to change the rule into something that cares about temporality. You are not allowed to change the rule to say this . . .

And if you think they do not, then you are fooling yourself. Remember, the ONLY time an FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit is while Gliding or Swooping. And Gliding and Swooping are tied to triggers and Phases in the unit type's own rules. One can no more ignore them than ignore their allowance to treat the FMC as a JMC, but you continue to try.

Please, prove your case that the triggers do not matter with the actual rules in the unit type in question instead of reverting to another unit type's rules.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

You keep changing the rule and when you do so your argument becomes wholly invalid from a RAW standpoint. I take the rule exactly as it is written and do not change it. That's why I have RAW support and you don't.

I do not keep changing the rule. Every time I have quoted the rules regarding these triggers, I have actually used YOUR quotes to do so. So, either neither of us are using RAW or you are ignoring the triggers inherent in the unit type. Which is it?

col_impact wrote:Also no amount of Chicken Little argumentation can make your counter-argument valid. The rules are what they are so deal with it. No amount of fabricating erroneous and irrelevant issues will get around dealing with how the rules are written. The rule has nothing to do with Relentless, Infiltrate, or Veil of Darkness. The sky is not falling so quit running around exclaiming the sky is falling as if it helps your invalid argument.

Than they should be easy to answer and to support if no amount of them will work. My case is about timing and triggers, which I have continuously stated and which you have continuously ignored. Still scared to actually answer the challenges?

col_impact wrote:The rules are very clear about where to look for where the BRB describes a unit type. My argument has all the RAW support. Your counter-argument has no RAW support. You ignore the language and logic of the rule itself and are resorting to Chicken Little argumentation which can only be interpreted as a concession on your part that my argument has uncontested RAW support. You have yet to even come up with a real case example that counters my argument.

My counter-argument has full RAW support since they come from the unit type in question. You have ignored it and my argument this entire time. Answer it with the rules from the unit type that it has no triggers.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.

There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.

Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?

All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.

Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.

Show a rule that requires them to move before deployment. No model can. Show a rule that requires a model to move to be put in reserves. Show a rule that requires a model to be able to move to be put in reserves. None of these things matter.

Your argument is completely moot because you fail to address the issue. The model is required to be described as moving like jump WHEN IT MOVES. Movement only happens in the MOVEMENT Phase. Not in deployment, nor in reserves. FMC's meet all the criteria for the rule, until you can find someway that they are described as not moving like jump.

If their ability to move like Jump was not tied to things that did not come in to play until the model is deployed, than you would correct. However, the movements like Jump are tied to things which only come in to play after the model is deployed.

FlingitNow wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.

Which mode is a FMC in before deployment?

Neither.

And that is part of the problem. And it's a stupid problem.

col_impact wrote:Incorrect. The unit type description for the FMC is static. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the unit type description even when they are not actively in play. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Now this is laughable. Just because a unit has the capacity to call upon a rule at times does not mean it always uses the rule. A Stubborn unit cannot use its ability to ignore negative Leadership Modifiers any time they want, like against the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death, they can only do so for Pinning Tests and Morale Checks. So, too, FMCs can only access the Jump unit rules while Gliding or Swooping, its built in to the rules of the unit type. I cannot ignore this FACT any more than I can the ability for an FMC to move over Terrain and Models without penalty, or the FACT that when an FMC stops in Difficult Terrain it must take a Dangerous Terrain Test, or the FACT that it will automatically pass this test because it possesses Move Through Cover.

col_impact wrote:The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit. We follow the rules as they are written and Deep Strike is granted to the FMC by virtue of the fact that its unit type description describes it as moving like a Jump unit.

Prove it. Because if it is NOT Gliding or Swooping, than it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.

col_impact wrote:You are not permitted to change rule A into rule B. Rule A is the rule as it is written.

A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Nor have I stated this once. You bring it up one more time, I will report your for trolling.

You are not permitted to change the rules and have Gliding and Swooping be considered an always on state for the unit type.

Charistoph wrote:
Prove it. Because if it is NOT Gliding or Swooping, than it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.

If it is described as moving like a Jump unit on the unit type description for the FMC then it is described as moving like a Jump unit and satisfies the requirement for the rule in question.

Your argument will remain invalid until you adhere to the semantics of 'described as'.


Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

Is Sally described as jumping? yes.


The rules don't care whether the FMC is currently moving like a jump unit.

The rule is phrased using "described as". The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, which it plainly is in the unit type description, where the rulebook explicitly tells us to look for where the FMC unit is described.





Based on the Unit Type description for the FMC it is 100% correct for me to assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

You keep stumbling over the way in which the rule is phrased. Sorry but that is just the rules as they are written.

Lance845 wrote:

This is all correct. Except that ... Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment. Like say... Wings on a ht.

The ht is a mc. Purchasing wings changes it to a FMC. Upon purchasing them before the game it gains new deployment rules.

If a tac marine could purchase a jump pack as part of its equipment before the game it would gain all those permissions at a time that would be relevant to deep striking.

The FMC has permission to enter a state that grants those permissions. It does not itself have those permissions. A fmc cannot ds. A FMC who is gliding can. You would need to be able to put the FMC into a specific flight mode before the game begins to grant the permissions. Nothing allows you to do so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true.

Again your requiring a model to move before the game. The rule requires the model to move like a Jump unit in the Movement Phase. That is all the is required. Your entire conditional argument means nothing. Does it move like a Jump MC in the movement phase? It can move 2 ways and both are like a Jump MC. Therefore it can DS.

There is no 3rd way that somehow disqualifies it.

At this point, we are going to have to agree to disagree, since nothing is changing in anyones argument.

Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment.

Umm, you might want to look at the Space Marine Assault unit more closely. The jump pack is not a default option on them, it is a piece of wargear that is purchasable. Congrats your whole argument just fell apart.

Again, once you purchase wings for the MC, it becomes a FMC, once it becomes a FMC its movement is always described as moving like a jump unit and therefore gains all the rules, it doesn't wait until its movement phase to become one, it is a FMC from the point of equipment purchase, just like an assault marine

Lusiphur wrote:

Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment.

Umm, you might want to look at the Space Marine Assault unit more closely. The jump pack is not a default option on them, it is a piece of wargear that is purchasable. Congrats your whole argument just fell apart.

Again, once you purchase wings for the MC, it becomes a FMC, once it becomes a FMC its movement is always described as moving like a jump unit and therefore gains all the rules, it doesn't wait until its movement phase to become one, it is a FMC from the point of equipment purchase, just like an assault marine

It all depends ... the BA is written differently. Pg. 82 says that they are Jump infantry.

However, in taking the Jump pack (C:SM) it does give them Jump status.This is clearly defined. This would grant them access to the DS rules.

FMC can move like they are Jump ... move.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:

Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment.

Umm, you might want to look at the Space Marine Assault unit more closely. The jump pack is not a default option on them, it is a piece of wargear that is purchasable. Congrats your whole argument just fell apart.

Again, once you purchase wings for the MC, it becomes a FMC, once it becomes a FMC its movement is always described as moving like a jump unit and therefore gains all the rules, it doesn't wait until its movement phase to become one, it is a FMC from the point of equipment purchase, just like an assault marine

It all depends ... the BA is written differently. Pg. 82 says that they are Jump infantry.

However, in taking the Jump pack (C:SM) it does give them Jump status.This is clearly defined. This would grant them access to the DS rules.

FMC can move like they are Jump ... move.

IF the FMC is gliding or swooping it can move like a jump mc. IF. those are active status and triggering conditions. Nothing says A FMC is considered gliding by default. Or a FMC is a jump mc that may choose to swoop. No rule gives a FMC either of those states by default. The rule clearly defines when those states begin and when you can change them. Neither of them are active when the game begins.

A model can only ever be described as moving like jump if it is moving like jump in the movement phase. A FMC can only move like jump in the movement phase regardless of the mode. End of story.

Lance845 wrote:

IF the FMC is gliding or swooping it can move like a jump mc. IF. those are active status and triggering conditions. Nothing says A FMC is considered gliding by default. Or a FMC is a jump mc that may choose to swoop. No rule gives a FMC either of those states by default. The rule clearly defines when those states begin and when you can change them. Neither of them are active when the game begins.

None of this is relevant to the rule in question. The rule uses "described as" so it does not care about the current state of the unit, only that the unit has been described as X in the unit type description.



The rule only cares if the FMC is described as 'moving like' a Jump unit. You find the description for the FMC in the Unit Types section. The rules in the FMC unit type description describe the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore we have satisfied this rule.



Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Prove it. Because if it is NOT Gliding or Swooping, than it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.

If it is described as moving like a Jump unit on the unit type description for the FMC then it is described as moving like a Jump unit and satisfies the requirement for the rule in question.

Your argument will remain invalid until you adhere to the semantics of 'described as'.

Full Definition of describe
de·scribed de·scrib·ing
transitive verb
1: to represent or give an account of in words (describe a picture)
2: to represent by a figure, model, or picture : delineate
3 obsolete : distribute
4: to trace or traverse the outline of (describe a circle)
5 archaic : observe, perceive

I am well aware and do adhere to semantics of the phrase "described as" quite properly. You have a problem with conditions and triggers, and cannot seem to resolve such semantics of such declarations properly.

Gliding:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Swooping:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...

Full Definition of if
1 a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
2: whether (asked if the mail had come) (I doubt if I'll pass the course)
3: used as a function word to introduce an exclamation expressing a wish (if it would only rain)
4: even though : although perhaps (an interesting if untenable argument)
5: and perhaps not even (few if any changes are expected) —often used with not (difficult if not impossible)

A FMC is described as moving as a Jump Monstrous Creature IF it is Gliding or IF it is Swooping.

DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

The status of Gliding or Swooping is not established as an "always on" thing, but initiated when the model is Deployed.

Gliding:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Swooping:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature...

Neither Gliding, Swooping, Flight Modes, nor any other section of the Unit Type states that a model with/possesses/etc this rule moves as a Jump Monstrous Creature. It is only while either Gliding or Swooping are in use that the application of "describing" the Flying Monstrous Creature as "moving as a Jump unit" is applicable.

This is how the Rules Are Written.

Rules are not allowed to operate outside the conditions set for them. The rules for Gliding and Swooping require their declared use in order to operate. Possession alone is insufficient for these rules to be used. Much like Hammer of Wrath for Jump units, their conditions must be met in order to access their benefits. A Blood Angel Jump Assault Marine who Jumped in the Movement Phase will not have Hammer of Wrath that Turn. A Flying Monstrous Creature that is neither Gliding or Swooping cannot be described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Yet again, Charistophe, you fail to grasp how the Unit Type description for the FMC describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

If you bothered to read the Dictionary definition for describe you would plainly see that describing something does not require that something to be in the act of doing what you describe. Of course the FMC must be gliding or swooping in order to be moving like a Jump unit. However, all that is required for the FMC to be granted Deep Strike is for the rules for Swooping and Gliding to be on the FMC unit type description - the FMC is then described as moving like a Jump unit.

Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

Is Sally described as jumping? yes.


The rule is satisfied since it merely requires that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, and does not require that the FMC is actually gliding or swooping. Since moving like a Jump unit is on the description for FMC the rule is satisfied.

The BRB tells us that the Unit Types section describes the units of 40k.



We look at the Unit Type description for the FMC and can plainly see that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.



We have satisfied the rule and we have adhered to the rule as it is written. We have adhered to the language and logic of the rule.

We can unequivocally assert that in the unit type description for the FMC the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.


Charistophe, your argument is wholly invalid as long as you do not adhere to language and logic of "described as". Merely posting a definition of "describe" is not enough. You have to actually use it correctly and obey its semantics and logic.


If the rule were written this way your argument would win out.



However as we know the rule is not written that way at all. It is written thusly.





Now that you have looked up the definition of "described as", Charistophe, do you think you can start applying it?

Hint: it makes these two rule statements into two very logically different statements.

A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."


Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.

Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?

col_impact wrote:

Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

col_impact wrote:
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.

No sally is described holding a book that reads "sally is jumping"

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

col_impact wrote:
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.

No sally is described holding a book that reads "sally is jumping"

Sure my example describes Sally as holding a book that describes Sally as jumping.

Also, it could be simply said that the book describes Sally as jumping.

Either way the point is Sally is not actually jumping. The astute among you will note that that proves my argument.

col_impact wrote:

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

col_impact wrote:
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.

No sally is described holding a book that reads "sally is jumping"

Sure my example describes Sally as holding a book that describes Sally as jumping.

Also, it could be simply said that the book describes Sally as jumping.

Either way the point is Sally is not actually jumping. The astute among you will note that that proves my argument.

You cannot cut out information in the description when asking if something is described in a XXX manner . Otherwise you are only partial-describing ( you are not given permission to do this in the ruleset ) . The more information put into the description , the more information must be repeated when describing it .

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

col_impact wrote:
Is Sally described as jumping? yes.

No sally is described holding a book that reads "sally is jumping"

Sure my example describes Sally as holding a book that describes Sally as jumping.

Also, it could be simply said that the book describes Sally as jumping.

Either way the point is Sally is not actually jumping. The astute among you will note that that proves my argument.

You cannot cut out information in the description when asking if something is described in a XXX manner . Otherwise you are only partial-describing ( you are not given permission to do this in the ruleset ) . The more information put into the description , the more information must be repeated when describing it .

Sorry what? In his example is Sally described as jumping? The correct answer is a simple yes the fact she is also described as other things is not relevant and does not change the bolean value.

So is a FMC described ANYWHERE as moving like jump units?

Not only is the answer yes but they are described as moving like Jump Units TWICE. Note however the description only actually needs to be in one of the flight modes to satisfy the rule in question.

 FlingitNow wrote:
[
Sorry what? In his example is Sally described as jumping? The correct answer is a simple yes the fact she is also described as other things is not relevant and does not change the bolean value.

So is a FMC described ANYWHERE as moving like jump units?

Not only is the answer yes but they are described as moving like Jump Units TWICE. Note however the description only actually needs to be in one of the flight modes to satisfy the rule in question.

So your stance is that " A nerfherder is not a jump unit" is that a nerfherder is a jump unit because it uses the words nerfherder and jump unit somewhere in the description ?

kambien wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
[
Sorry what? In his example is Sally described as jumping? The correct answer is a simple yes the fact she is also described as other things is not relevant and does not change the bolean value.

So is a FMC described ANYWHERE as moving like jump units?

Not only is the answer yes but they are described as moving like Jump Units TWICE. Note however the description only actually needs to be in one of the flight modes to satisfy the rule in question.

So your stance is that " A nerfherder is not a jump unit" is that a nerfherder is a jump unit because it uses the words nerfherder and jump unit somewhere in the description ?

Nope "is not" isn't the same as "is". If it said "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit", THEN if asked if a Nerfherder is described as a jump unit the answer is yes. If asked if a Nerfherder is a jump unit the answer is only yes on Tuesdays.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Nope "is not" isn't the same as "is". If it said "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit", THEN if asked if a Nerfherder is described as a jump unit the answer is yes. If asked if a Nerfherder is a jump unit the answer is only yes on Tuesdays.

No , that's now how the English language works . If asked if "A Nerfherder described as jump unit?" the answer is no . It is describbed as "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit".
Saying that "A Nerfherder described as jump unit" is described as a jump unit is a lie . It would be partial described ( because you did not provide the full information while having it. You don't get to pick and choose the description , you use the entire thing. )

How does a FMC move? It is only allowed to move by either swooping or gliding.
Is this always true once the unit is determined to be a FMC? Yes.
Are either swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? Yes, both are.
Is a FMC allowed to move in any other fashion? No, it has no other movement options available to it.
Does this mean a FMC can be described, at all times, as moving like a jump unit? YES.
Does being described as moving like a jump unit satisfy the rule for gaining all the rules of a jump unit? YES.

But the IF statement is in the rules it has to mean something right? Yes it does, it means you can't glide and swoop at the same time. It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

kambien wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Nope "is not" isn't the same as "is". If it said "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit", THEN if asked if a Nerfherder is described as a jump unit the answer is yes. If asked if a Nerfherder is a jump unit the answer is only yes on Tuesdays.

No , that's now how the English language works . If asked if "A Nerfherder described as jump unit?" the answer is no . It is describbed as "A Nerfherder is not a jump unit, except on Tuesdays when a Nerfherder is a jump unit".
Saying that "A Nerfherder described as jump unit" is described as a jump unit is a lie . It would be partial described ( because you did not provide the full information while having it. You don't get to pick and choose the description , you use the entire thing. )

Sorry but is the sentence says that a Nerfherder is a jump unit, then it is described as a jump unit, that is actually how English works. There is no way to move this discussion forward until you understand what described as means.

Lusiphur wrote:
How does a FMC move? It is only allowed to move by either swooping or gliding.
Is this always true once the unit is determined to be a FMC? Yes.
Are either swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? Yes, both are.
Is a FMC allowed to move in any other fashion? No, it has no other movement options available to it.
Does this mean a FMC can be described, at all times, as moving like a jump unit? YES.
Does being described as moving like a jump unit satisfy the rule for gaining all the rules of a jump unit? YES.

But the IF statement is in the rules it has to mean something right? Yes it does, it means you can't glide and swoop at the same time. It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Pretty much sums it up.

Lusiphur wrote:
How does a FMC move? It is only allowed to move by either swooping or gliding.
Is this always true once the unit is determined to be a FMC? Yes.
Are either swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? Yes, both are.
Is a FMC allowed to move in any other fashion? No, it has no other movement options available to it.
Does this mean a FMC can be described, at all times, as moving like a jump unit? YES.
Does being described as moving like a jump unit satisfy the rule for gaining all the rules of a jump unit? YES.

But the IF statement is in the rules it has to mean something right? Yes it does, it means you can't glide and swoop at the same time. It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

It is not undefined and the time is very clear not mythical.

Until it enters a flight mode it is not gliding or swooping I.e. Before deployment, and while in reserves. The 3rd movement option is it's default and is stated in the FMC first sentence. A FMC is a mc. 6 inches. Not a jump mc, which they could have easily stated. It is not gliding by default which they could have stated. Just a mc.

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

col_impact wrote:
Yet again, Charistophe, you fail to grasp how the Unit Type description for the FMC describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

Quite incorrect. I fully grasp it. I also fully grasp that I don't get to pick and choose the bits I want to pay attention to. The Description for the FMC relies on "if" statements.

col_impact wrote:
If you bothered to read the Dictionary definition for describe you would plainly see that describing something does not require that something to be in the act of doing what you describe. Of course the FMC must be gliding or swooping in order to be moving like a Jump unit. However, all that is required for the FMC to be granted Deep Strike is for the rules for Swooping and Gliding to be on the FMC unit type description - the FMC is then described as moving like a Jump unit.

I just quoted the definition of "described". And yet, the FMC is only described as moving thus while Swooping or Gliding. Quote the part in the unit type descriptions that states the FMC moves like a Jump unit at any other time.

col_impact wrote:
Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

Is Sally described as jumping? yes.

Which Sally is described as jumping, though? Not the one holding the book, but the Sally in the book in her hand is described as jumping. Nevertheless, you continue to use this type of unlogic and wave away and ignore anything that does not support your perspective. You never even address it.

col_impact wrote:
The rule is satisfied since it merely requires that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, and does not require that the FMC is actually gliding or swooping. Since moving like a Jump unit is on the description for FMC the rule is satisfied.

The BRB tells us that the Unit Types section describes the units of 40k.

Spoiler:

UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.

We look at the Unit Type description for the FMC and can plainly see that yes indeed the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

We have satisfied the rule and we have adhered to the rule as it is written. We have adhered to the language and logic of the rule.

We can unequivocally assert that in the unit type description for the FMC the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

Sure it does, while it is Swooping or Gliding. That is specifically written in the unit type.

col_impact wrote:
Charistophe, your argument is wholly invalid as long as you do not adhere to language and logic of "described as". Merely posting a definition of "describe" is not enough. You have to actually use it correctly and obey its semantics and logic.

Incorrect. Completely incorrect. Your argument is only valid if you ignore the conditions under which the description is valid.

col_impact wrote:
Now that you have looked up the definition of "described as", Charistophe, do you think you can start applying it?

Now that I've quoted the definition of "if", do you think you can start applying it?

col_impact wrote:
Hint: it makes these two rule statements into two very logically different statements.

A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."


Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.

Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Which rule is in the rulebook?

vundere wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

Proven wrong by the FMC rules.

Fragile wrote:

vundere wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

Proven wrong by the FMC rules.

Elucidate and expand your answer.

FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.

When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..

Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.

Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:

vundere wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

Proven wrong by the FMC rules.

Elucidate and expand your answer.

FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.

When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..

Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.

However their description still includes "moves like a jump unit" which is all that is required...

Charistoph wrote:


Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Which rule is in the rulebook?

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .


Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:

vundere wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

Proven wrong by the FMC rules.

Elucidate and expand your answer.

FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.

When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..

Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.

However their description still includes "moves like a jump unit" which is all that is required...

And the conditions to those descriptions do not matter or count?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Which rule is in the rulebook?

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

And thank you for not answering the question.

So, to you, conditions stated RAW do not matter, nor do they count?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Which rule is in the rulebook?

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

And thank you for not answering the question.

So, to you, conditions stated RAW do not matter, nor do they count?

The rule is expressed the way it is. I adhere to the language and logic of the rule.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

That's the way English works. If you have a problem with it you have a problem with the way GW writes rules, not with me. I am just reading the rule and applying the rule as it is written.

I suggest you e-mail GW and tell them you are offended by their use of "described as" in their rule. Meanwhile, I will follow the rules as they are written.

And the conditions to those descriptions do not matter or count? 

Not fulfil the requirement of being "described as moving like Jump units".