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Fragile wrote:
Again deployment is irrelevant. Something can only be described as moving like something else when it is moving which is during the movement phase. Both gliding and swooping are described as moving like jump. Therefore it gains the rules.

It is relevant since the FMC does not gain access to use the Gliding and Swooping rules until after they Deploy. There is no rule stating that they are always Gliding or Swooping. These are granted when deploying and altered in the Movement Phase.

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

When a FMC moves, it can only move in swoop or glide mode, it can never move and not use one of those two modes and both modes are described as jump.

Can someone point out to me where this third moving option exists that state a FMC is not acting like a Jump MC when it moves? I can't find it. And don't say doing nothing, because that is not the act of moving, because if it was, it would still need to declare a mode (of which glide has permission to do nothing) before it could declare nothing.

Lusiphur wrote:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

When a FMC moves, it can only move in swoop or glide mode, it can never move and not use one of those two modes and both modes are described as jump.

Can someone point out to me where this third moving option exists that state a FMC is not acting like a Jump MC when it moves? I can't find it. And don't say doing nothing, because that is not the act of moving, because if it was, it would still need to declare a mode (of which glide has permission to do nothing) before it could declare nothing.

And when is this requirement?

Read Deployment, when does the FMC gain Gliding or Swooping?

Again, this is simply RAW and simply stupid, there are better ways of translating this concept through for an "always" on JMC status.

Lusiphur wrote:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

When a FMC moves, it can only move in swoop or glide mode, it can never move and not use one of those two modes and both modes are described as jump.

Can someone point out to me where this third moving option exists that state a FMC is not acting like a Jump MC when it moves? I can't find it. And don't say doing nothing, because that is not the act of moving, because if it was, it would still need to declare a mode (of which glide has permission to do nothing) before it could declare nothing.

You said it yourself ... it can only move and the movement is what grants the FMC jump status. It does not have that status until it is deployed. Without that status, it is not a jump unit, without jump, it is not able to be put into DSR.

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

In order for this statement to be false, these has to be a time when the FMC does not move like a jump unit during it's movement phase.

Lusiphur wrote:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

In order for this statement to be false, these has to be a time when the FMC does not move like a jump unit during it's movement phase.

Who said it was false?

It is a question of timing and access to its rules.

So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.

There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.

Lusiphur wrote:
So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.

There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.

Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?

All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.

Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.

What is trying to be conveyed here is that they are Jump when they move or are deployed. Prior to that they are not. If they were intended to be considered Jump for all purposes they would have the Jump rule. They do not ... they only have it when they are deployed or are moving. There is a difference, not much to be sure, but there is a difference.

Before the game start it can be said that the FMC moves like a jump. It doesn't gain these abilities during the movement phase or during deployment, it ALWAYS has them, there is never a time when the FMC does not have the ability to glide or swoop during it's movement. Now it can only use one at a time, hence the IF portion of those rules, but it always has both (and only those two choices) available to it.

Just because you choose which of the two use during the movement phase (or deployment) doesn't mean they are not there before you make the choice. The FMC has wings even before it decides to glide or swoop with them.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
What is trying to be conveyed here is that they are Jump when they move or are deployed. Prior to that they are not. If they were intended to be considered Jump for all purposes they would have the Jump rule. They do not ... they only have it when they are deployed or are moving. There is a difference, not much to be sure, but there is a difference.

Indeed.

As stated before, this is also very stupid and a waste of the writer's time. It would have been easier to exclude the Deep Strike rule from the Jump Monstrous Creature than create such a weird setup if that was the Intent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lusiphur wrote:
Before the game start it can be said that the FMC moves like a jump.

Where is it said that so it can be said?

Lusiphur wrote:
It doesn't gain these abilities during the movement phase or during deployment, it ALWAYS has them, there is never a time when the FMC does not have the ability to glide or swoop during it's movement. Now it can only use one at a time, hence the IF portion of those rules, but it always has both (and only those two choices) available to it.

Actually, that is not what those rules state, though. It does not state that the FMC is always Gliding or Swooping. It states during different types of deploying that it is under those states.

Lusiphur wrote:
Just because you choose which of the two use during the movement phase (or deployment) doesn't mean they are not there before you make the choice. The FMC has wings even before it decides to glide or swoop with them.

The problem is that there is nothing to state that they ARE there and in force before you deploy the FMC, and that is the critical dysfunction.

It's not true though. A fmcs default move before anything else is applied is that of a mc. It says it in the first sentence of it's entry.

The conditional statements apply very specific circumstances for when that changes. Just because the total conditional states cover the vast majority of the games does not mean they apply during 100% of the game. During the very small window when deepstrike is possible the FMC moves like a mc.

The FMC is only allowed to move with two methods even before deployment. Swoop or glide. There is no default but unused method of movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean how does an Assault Marine have access to his USRs if he isn't allowed to chose to activate his jump pack until he moves either.

Lusiphur wrote:
The FMC is only allowed to move with two methods even before deployment. Swoop or glide. There is no default but unused method of movement.

This is incorrect. By default, the FMC is an MC first. It CAN move by Gliding or Swooping. It does not have allowance to use either Gliding or Swooping until the model deploys, though.

Lusiphur wrote:

I mean how does an Assault Marine have access to his USRs if he isn't allowed to chose to activate his jump pack until he moves either.

Because he IS that unit type.

The FMC only gains access to it by activating its Flight Modes. When not using or without access to a Flight Mode, it is not described as moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature, just a basic Monstrous Creature.

Lusiphur wrote:
The FMC is only allowed to move with two methods even before deployment. Swoop or glide. There is no default but unused method of movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean how does an Assault Marine have access to his USRs if he isn't allowed to chose to activate his jump pack until he moves either.

An assault marine is a jump infantry. That is what he is. He gets all the rules a jump infantry gets. A fmcs default movement permissions are that of a mc. Which is that of an infantry with bonus special rules. 6 inches. The FMC has access to 2 flight modes at specific times and durring specific circumstances. While in a flight mode it gains all the benefits of jump.

If a mc is not in either flight mode (which is the case before deployment, what are it's movement permissions. "a FMC is a mc with additional rules" 6 inches with move through cover.

Lance845 wrote:
It's not true though. A fmcs default move before anything else is applied is that of a mc. It says it in the first sentence of it's entry.

The conditional statements apply very specific circumstances for when that changes. Just because the total conditional states cover the vast majority of the games does not mean they apply during 100% of the game. During the very small window when deepstrike is possible the FMC moves like a mc.

All of that is wholly irrelevant.

The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that it is currently moving like a Jump unit.



The rules tell us to look at the Unit Types section of the BRB which describes the units of 40k.



So we look at the unit type description for the FMC and we can plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like Jump Monstrous Creature which is equivalent to moving like a Jump unit, per this rule.



We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The rules are satisfied. Deep Strike is granted.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
It's not true though. A fmcs default move before anything else is applied is that of a mc. It says it in the first sentence of it's entry.

The conditional statements apply very specific circumstances for when that changes. Just because the total conditional states cover the vast majority of the games does not mean they apply during 100% of the game. During the very small window when deepstrike is possible the FMC moves like a mc.

All of that is wholly irrelevant.

The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that it is currently moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.

The rules tell us to look at the Unit Types section of the BRB which describes the units of 40k.

Spoiler:

UNIT TYPES

This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.

So we look at the unit type description for the FMC and we can plainly see that the FMC is described as moving like Jump Monstrous Creature which is equivalent to moving like a Jump unit, per this rule.

Spoiler:

Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. The rules are satisfied. Deep Strike is granted.

And so a unit that has a rule that they can move like a Jump Infantry only in the Assault Phase can instead move like Jump Infantry all the time and Deep Strike? When a Special Rule is available has no bearing and is irrelevant?

A Skyhammer Devastator will be Relentless all game at that point. Jump Units will have Hammer of Wrath even if they do not use their Jump Packs to Charge. I can Infiltrate my Infiltrators at any point in the game. I can Veil of Darkness my Deathmarks and they can use Ethereal Interception and Hunters from Hyperspace all at the same time!

Please tell me you have some sense of the temporal nature of the rules?

You still have yet to properly address most of the challenges presented to you. You also keep ignoring a good portion of the FMC's rules. Scared?

Also, you REALLY need to learn how to edit your copy & paste. It really takes up unnecessary space.

A FMC is not a MC that transforms into a FMC during the movement phase. It is always a FMC even during deployment, therefore it is never allowed to move in any fashion during the movement phase as anything other then a FMC can and both modes are described as using the jump rules.

And since all that is needed to access all the rules for jump is to be described as using the jump rules for it's movement it gains all the rules for jump prior to deployment

Charistoph wrote:


And so a unit that has a rule that they can move like a Jump Infantry only in the Assault Phase can instead move like Jump Infantry all the time and Deep Strike? When a Special Rule is available has no bearing and is irrelevant?

A Skyhammer Devastator will be Relentless all game at that point. Jump Units will have Hammer of Wrath even if they do not use their Jump Packs to Charge. I can Infiltrate my Infiltrators at any point in the game. I can Veil of Darkness my Deathmarks and they can use Ethereal Interception and Hunters from Hyperspace all at the same time!

Please tell me you have some sense of the temporal nature of the rules?

You still have yet to properly address most of the challenges presented to you. You also keep ignoring a good portion of the FMC's rules. Scared?

Also, you REALLY need to learn how to edit your copy & paste. It really takes up unnecessary space.

None of your Chicken Little arguments are relevant to a RAW discussion. In a RAW discussion we deal with the rules as they are written.



The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. You are not allowed to change the rule into something that cares about temporality. You are not allowed to change the rule to say this . . .



You keep changing the rule and when you do so your argument becomes wholly invalid from a RAW standpoint. I take the rule exactly as it is written and do not change it. That's why I have RAW support and you don't.

Also no amount of Chicken Little argumentation can make your counter-argument valid. The rules are what they are so deal with it. No amount of fabricating erroneous and irrelevant issues will get around dealing with how the rules are written. The rule has nothing to do with Relentless, Infiltrate, or Veil of Darkness. The sky is not falling so quit running around exclaiming the sky is falling as if it helps your invalid argument.


The rules are very clear about where to look for where the BRB describes a unit type. My argument has all the RAW support. Your counter-argument has no RAW support. You ignore the language and logic of the rule itself and are resorting to Chicken Little argumentation which can only be interpreted as a concession on your part that my argument has uncontested RAW support. You have yet to even come up with a real case example that counters my argument.

I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.

Which mode is a FMC in before deployment?

Lance845 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.

Which mode is a FMC in before deployment?

Not relevant. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. You keep thinking the rule is asking if the FMC is moving like a Jump unit. That's not what the rule says.

Charistoph wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.

There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.

Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?

All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.

Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.

Show a rule that requires them to move before deployment. No model can. Show a rule that requires a model to move to be put in reserves. Show a rule that requires a model to be able to move to be put in reserves. None of these things matter.

Your argument is completely moot because you fail to address the issue. The model is required to be described as moving like jump WHEN IT MOVES. Movement only happens in the MOVEMENT Phase. Not in deployment, nor in reserves. FMC's meet all the criteria for the rule, until you can find someway that they are described as not moving like jump.

Lets do it this way.

40k writes its rules using a method called permission based game play.

That means that every single rule in 40k is expressed by a if/than statement. If infantry than move 6" during movement, shoot one gun during shooting et etc...

Now. A couple quick definitions.


if

conjunction

1.
in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:

than/T͟Han,T͟Hən/

conjunction preposition
1.introducing the second element in a comparison.
2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.

Now lets look at the fmcs permissions.

A FMC is a mc with a number of additional rule.

If FMC than mc plus vector strike, jink, deploying at the start of the game places it in glide mode. Enter play from reserves requires you to declare flight mode. Arriving via deepstrike must be swooping.

Or

If FMC than mc plus jink and vs.
-if deployed than glide
-if arriving from reserves than declare.
-if ds than swoop.

If gliding than emulates jump
If swoop than emulates jump plus exceptions

Or, on condition that FMC is gliding than
(2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.)
Moves like jump. Until the condition is met the FMC is not described as doing anything. In fact. It is described very definitively as a mc with vector strike and jink that gains conditional states upon deployment and upon entering the field.

Deep strike.

Unit must be placed in reserves before the game and you must declare to your opponent that it will arrive via ds.

If ds than reserves plus declaration.

If a model does not have the ds rule it does not have permission to do this. Does a FMC have permission to do this before the game starts? No. It's permissions that grant ds are conditional on it being in 1 of 2 flight modes which it does not have permission to enter before the game starts.

Lance845 wrote:
Lets do it this way.

40k writes its rules using a method called permission based game play.

That means that every single rule in 40k is expressed by a if/than statement. If infantry than move 6" during movement, shoot one gun during shooting et etc...

Now. A couple quick definitions.


if

conjunction

1.
in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:

than/T͟Han,T͟Hən/

conjunction preposition
1.introducing the second element in a comparison.
2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.

Now lets look at the fmcs permissions.

A FMC is a mc with a number of additional rule.

If FMC than mc plus vector strike, jink, deploying at the start of the game places it in glide mode. Enter play from reserves requires you to declare flight mode. Arriving via deepstrike must be swooping.

Or

If FMC than mc plus jink and vs.
-if deployed than glide
-if arriving from reserves than declare.
-if ds than swoop.

If gliding than emulates jump
If swoop than emulates jump plus exceptions

Or, on condition that FMC is gliding than
(2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.)
Moves like jump. Until the condition is met the FMC is not described as doing anything. In fact. It is described very definitively as a mc with vector strike and jink that gains conditional states upon deployment and upon entering the field.

Deep strike.

Unit must be placed in reserves before the game and you must declare to your opponent that it will arrive via ds.

If ds than reserves plus declaration.

If a model does not have the ds rule it does not have permission to do this. Does a FMC have permission to do this before the game starts? No. It's permissions that grant ds are conditional on it being in 1 of 2 flight modes which it does not have permission to enter before the game starts.

Your whole post is not relevant.

The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. We follow the rules that tell us the Unit Types section describes the units of 40k and look at the unit type for description and plainly see that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. We have followed the rules as they are written.

You keep thinking the rule is asking if the FMC is moving like a Jump unit. That's not what the rule says. You need to follow the rules as they are written or else your argument remains invalid.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
So, if that statement is true, then they always move like jump, which means they always have the jump USRs, of which Deep Strike is one.

There is no timing issue. Before, during and after deployment they always move like jump and they always have the jump USRs.

Where does it state that they always move like jump before, during, and after deployment?

All I see is that they are Gliding or Swooping when they Deploy, never stated before nor always.

Having a rule a portion of the time does not grant one rights for all the time.

Show a rule that requires them to move before deployment. No model can. Show a rule that requires a model to move to be put in reserves. Show a rule that requires a model to be able to move to be put in reserves. None of these things matter.

Your argument is completely moot because you fail to address the issue. The model is required to be described as moving like jump WHEN IT MOVES. Movement only happens in the MOVEMENT Phase. Not in deployment, nor in reserves. FMC's meet all the criteria for the rule, until you can find someway that they are described as not moving like jump.

This is all correct. Except that ... Lets say a jump pack was purchasable equipment. Like say... Wings on a ht.

The ht is a mc. Purchasing wings changes it to a FMC. Upon purchasing them before the game it gains new deployment rules.

If a tac marine could purchase a jump pack as part of its equipment before the game it would gain all those permissions at a time that would be relevant to deep striking.

The FMC has permission to enter a state that grants those permissions. It does not itself have those permissions. A fmc cannot ds. A FMC who is gliding can. You would need to be able to put the FMC into a specific flight mode before the game begins to grant the permissions. Nothing allows you to do so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true.

Lance845 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I think the issue appears to be the incorrect assumption that FMVs only gain the Glide and Swoop modes during movement. This is not accurate the rules are always thete and you pick which 1 to use each time you move. Unequivocally FMCs are described as moving like jump units.

Which mode is a FMC in before deployment?

Neither.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
Lets do it this way.

40k writes its rules using a method called permission based game play.

That means that every single rule in 40k is expressed by a if/than statement. If infantry than move 6" during movement, shoot one gun during shooting et etc...

Now. A couple quick definitions.


if

conjunction

1.
in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:

than/T͟Han,T͟Hən/

conjunction preposition
1.introducing the second element in a comparison.
2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.

Now lets look at the fmcs permissions.

A FMC is a mc with a number of additional rule.

If FMC than mc plus vector strike, jink, deploying at the start of the game places it in glide mode. Enter play from reserves requires you to declare flight mode. Arriving via deepstrike must be swooping.

Or

If FMC than mc plus jink and vs.
-if deployed than glide
-if arriving from reserves than declare.
-if ds than swoop.

If gliding than emulates jump
If swoop than emulates jump plus exceptions

Or, on condition that FMC is gliding than
(2.used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
3.used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.)
Moves like jump. Until the condition is met the FMC is not described as doing anything. In fact. It is described very definitively as a mc with vector strike and jink that gains conditional states upon deployment and upon entering the field.

Deep strike.

Unit must be placed in reserves before the game and you must declare to your opponent that it will arrive via ds.

If ds than reserves plus declaration.

If a model does not have the ds rule it does not have permission to do this. Does a FMC have permission to do this before the game starts? No. It's permissions that grant ds are conditional on it being in 1 of 2 flight modes which it does not have permission to enter before the game starts.

If you're trying be technical about language please please learn what Than actually means as none of your post makes sense in English.

Lance845 wrote:
The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true.

Incorrect. The unit type description for the FMC is static. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the unit type description even when they are not actively in play. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit. We follow the rules as they are written and Deep Strike is granted to the FMC by virtue of the fact that its unit type description describes it as moving like a Jump unit.


You are not permitted to change rule A into rule B. Rule A is the rule as it is written.

A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true

Lance845 wrote:

If (conditional) than (immediately after). If described, than gains permission. If gliding, than jump. The FMC is not described as moving like jump until after it enters a flight mode. If than statements are very temporal. You cannot grant a conditional based on a conditional unless both conditionals are true

Incorrect. The Unit Type description is a static thing that describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

Your argument will remain invalid until you adhere to the semantics of 'described as'.


Sally holds a book in her hand that reads 'Sally is jumping'.

Is Sally jumping? no.

Is Sally described as jumping? yes.


Which of these rules is in the BRB?

A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."