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2016/01/05 05:36:26
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Bojazz wrote: A Swooping or Gliding FMC is. A Non-Swooping or Gliding FMC is not.
So the answer is yes then. You just indicated it is "described as moving like a jump unit" by pointing out that it has Swooping and Gliding abilities. If the FMC is "described as moving like a jump unit" then it has Deep Strike.
The rules only care that it is "described as moving like a jump unit". That is RAW.
Or are you trying to say that Swooping and Gliding abilities are not descriptive of an FMC?
2016/01/05 05:47:14
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
So by that logic, if I have a piece of terrain called a Trampoline that has a special rule saying "Any unit inside this terrain at the beginning of their turn moves like a jump unit for the duration of the turn", then everything in the game should be able to Deep Strike so long as they come into contact with the terrain at some point during the game. Because as some point during that game they can be described as "moving like a jump unit"?
Your logic doesn't stand up. In order to be described as "moving like a jump unit" (and gain access to the jump rules) the unit must CURRENTLY be "moving like a jump unit". Simply being able to move like a jump unit at some point in time doesn't give it access to all the jump rules at all times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 05:47:33
2016/01/05 05:53:13
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Bojazz wrote: So by that logic, if I have a piece of terrain called a Trampoline that has a special rule saying "Any unit inside this terrain at the beginning of their turn moves like a jump unit for the duration of the turn", then everything in the game should be able to Deep Strike so long as they come into contact with the terrain at some point during the game. Because as some point during that game they can be described as "moving like a jump unit"?
Your logic doesn't stand up. In order to be described as "moving like a jump unit" (and gain access to the jump rules) the unit must CURRENTLY be "moving like a jump unit". Simply being able to move like a jump unit at some point in time doesn't give it access to all the jump rules at all times.
I am not using "that logic". I am using the logic in the rules.
The rules say "described as moving like a jump unit" not "while moving like a unit". Why are you dropping "described" and adding "while"?
Whether or not a unit is described is something that is a simple yes or no.
We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. I can definitively point in the BRB where it is described as such. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 05:54:42
2016/01/05 05:58:28
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during *those times*.
Is an FMC that has not moved described as moving like a Jump Creature? No, it is not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 06:00:28
2016/01/05 06:01:25
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Bojazz wrote: Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during those times.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. That is RAW.
If you want to add *AT TIMES* then that is HYWPI and please mark your answer as such.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 06:05:27
2016/01/05 06:06:11
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Bojazz wrote: Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during those times.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. That is RAW.
If you want to add *AT TIMES* then that is HYWPI and please mark your answer as such.
going to provide some rules to back that up ?
2016/01/05 06:07:47
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Bojazz wrote: Units that "ARE* described as moving like Jump units follow all the rules for jump units. Not units that *WERE* or *WILL BE*, but only units that *ARE*. Present tense. They must currently be described as moving like a Jump Creature to use the Jump Rules at that time.
We can state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit *AT TIMES*. Therefore it has deep strike during those times.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike. That is RAW.
If you want to add *AT TIMES* then that is HYWPI and please mark your answer as such.
Incorrect. We can unequivocally state that an FMC is not described as moving like a Jump unit while it is not moving like a Jump Unit. Therefore it does not have Deep Strike while it is not moving like a jump unit.
If you want to add *WAS or WILL BE* then that is HIWPI and please mark your answer as such.
Units aren't checked once for all states they are in during the game, they are constantly checked for which state they are in. For instance, The "Gone to Ground" units state that "a unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge". That state is constantly checked to see if a unit is CURRENTLY gone to ground. Otherwise a unit that has gone to ground would never be able to move run or charge ever again, because at one point in time you can say "that unit has gone to ground".
Likewise, you cannot say that a unit not moving like a Jump unit is described as moving like a Jump unit, just because it has (or will) at some point in the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 06:08:21
2016/01/05 06:08:04
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
To answer your question Charistoph, I don't have my Codex on me, but I'm fairly certain it says Drop Pods arrive by DS, which is enough for me to allow it.
YMDC = nightmare
2016/01/05 06:11:02
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Units aren't checked once for all states they are in during the game, they are constantly checked for which state they are in. For instance, The "Gone to Ground" units state that "a unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge". That state is constantly checked to see if a unit is CURRENTLY gone to ground. Otherwise a unit that has gone to ground would never be able to move run or charge ever again, because at one point in time you can say "that unit has gone to ground".
Quit trying to Strawman what is straightforward logic in my argument. The rules are very clear about Gone to Ground.
Spoiler:
A unit that has Gone to Ground cannot move, Run or charge. It can
only fire Snap Shots when it wishes to shoot, and cannot fire
Overwatch. At the end of its following turn, the unit returns to normal, the
marker is removed and the unit is free to act as normal from then on.
Bojazz wrote: Likewise, you cannot say that a unit not moving like a Jump unit is described as moving like a Jump unit, just because it has (or will) at some point in the game.
Does the rule in question ask if a unit is "moving like a Jump unit" or "described as moving like a Jump unit"?
Since the rules ask me if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" then it is clear the answer is yes.
The rules are not asking me if the FMC is "currently moving like a Jump unit". That is something you are making up. You are not allowed to do that and call it RAW. I will stick with RAW.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 06:21:19
2016/01/05 06:34:44
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
awesome , you get DS when your either gliding or swooping . When do you get those rules ??
Incorrect. The rules grant you DS if you are described as moving like a jump unit not 'when' or 'while' you are moving like a jump unit.
In order to count as a RAW argument you must adhere to the language used.
The rules use "describe as" - you are not permitted to drop that from the rule or add stuff in like 'currently' or 'while'.
"Currently moving like a jump unit" is not the same thing at all as "described as moving like a jump unit." Pay attention to the actual language and logic used in the rules.
If you are going to insist on disregarding the actual language and logic used then mark your answer HYWPI.
By reading the actual language and logic of the rule it is unequivocally clear that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 06:51:20
2016/01/05 07:03:52
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The rules grant you DS if you are described as moving like a jump unit not 'when' or 'while' you are moving like a jump unit.
In order to count as a RAW argument you must adhere to the language used.
The rules use "describe as" - you are not permitted to drop that from the rule or add stuff in like 'currently' or 'while'.
"Currently moving like a jump unit" is not the same thing at all as "described as moving like a jump unit." Pay attention to the actual language and logic used in the rules.
If you are going to insist on disregarding the actual language and logic used then mark your answer HYWPI.
By reading the actual language and logic of the rule it is unequivocally clear that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
I can't find a actual definition of "Described as" could you point me to one ?
You also did not answer the question of when are you gliding/swooping? When do you get those rules? are both applied at all times ? is it one or the other ? are there requirements for them to be present on the model ?
2016/01/05 07:12:07
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The rules grant you DS if you are described as moving like a jump unit not 'when' or 'while' you are moving like a jump unit.
In order to count as a RAW argument you must adhere to the language used.
The rules use "describe as" - you are not permitted to drop that from the rule or add stuff in like 'currently' or 'while'.
"Currently moving like a jump unit" is not the same thing at all as "described as moving like a jump unit." Pay attention to the actual language and logic used in the rules.
If you are going to insist on disregarding the actual language and logic used then mark your answer HYWPI.
By reading the actual language and logic of the rule it is unequivocally clear that an FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
I can't find a actual definition of "Described as" could you point me to one ?
You also did not answer the question of when are you gliding/swooping? When do you get those rules? are both applied at all times ? is it one or the other ? are there requirements for them to be present on the model ?
Spoiler:
UNIT TYPES
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st
Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
Here is the where FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
In red is where the FMC unit type is described as moving like a jump unit.
Is an FMC unit described as moving like a jump unit? YES! It is described as moving like a jump unit in its unit type description. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 07:46:22
20162016/01/05 07:44:46
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
col_impact wrote: Is an FMC described as moving like a jump unit? YES! It is described as moving like a jump unit in its unit type description. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Really ? cause i'm still not seeing it.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
So we are only allowed to use the JMC rules when is gliding or is swooping.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Ok so it doesn't get a flight mode till it enters play , which is to late for it to go into DS reserve
No movement selected , you don't get swooping/gliding , you don't get JMC rules.
2016/01/05 07:54:43
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
col_impact wrote: Is an FMC described as moving like a jump unit? YES! It is described as moving like a jump unit in its unit type description. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
Really ? cause i'm still not seeing it.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
So we are only allowed to use the JMC rules when is gliding or is swooping.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Ok so it doesn't get a flight mode till it enters play , which is to late for it to go into DS reserve
No movement selected , you don't get swooping/gliding , you don't get JMC rules.
Incorrect. We get JMC rules for unit types that are described as moving like Jump units.
I have pointed to where the unit type for Flying Monstrous Creatures is described, using the rules.
To make it crystal clear, here is the Flying Monstrous Creatures description in the Unit Type section.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This is where Flying Monstrous Creatures are described.
In this Unit Type description for FMC, FMC are described as moving like Jump units [see Red].
So it is abundantly clear that FMC are described as moving like Jump units. Therefore FMC have Deep Strike.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 08:04:18
2016/01/05 08:21:21
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
In this Unit Type description for FMC, FMC are described as moving like Jump units.
So it is abundantly clear that FMC are described as moving like Jump units. Therefore FMC have Deep Strike.
let me help you out
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
You see that first word ? Its a conditional requirement. Now here comes the problem of your entire argument.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.
Does FMC have the deepstrike rule ? No they do not.
Do FMC that are swooping/gliding , have the DS rule . Yes they get it through the exactly as a JMC portion of the sweeping/gliding rule.
Do FMC have swooping/gliding by default ? No they do not.
How do FMC get swooping gliding ?
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glidingmode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swoopingor Gliding until the start of its next turn
So when you put a FMC into DS reserve , you have not followed any of the above , it cannont be in a gliding or swooping mode. If its not in either , it does not behave exactly as a JMC , which means it does not have deepstrike special rule and cannont be placed there
2016/01/05 13:38:55
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
A FMC only has two modes. Swooping or Gliding. There is no third default state of nothing.
If the FMC doesn't move for a turn guess what, that means it has to be in Gliding mode because that is the only choice of the two that allows for a 0 inch movement distance since swooping has a minimum distance requirement.
Don't forget, jump units can move with or without their jump ability (or gliding) and "walk" so that they can instead use during their assault phase since it can't used during both phases without an exception like Raven Guard.
2016/01/05 15:20:50
Subject: Re:Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lusiphur wrote: A FMC only has two modes. Swooping or Gliding. There is no third default state of nothing.
If the FMC doesn't move for a turn guess what, that means it has to be in Gliding mode because that is the only choice of the two that allows for a 0 inch movement distance since swooping has a minimum distance requirement.
Don't forget, jump units can move with or without their jump ability (or gliding) and "walk" so that they can instead use during their assault phase since it can't used during both phases without an exception like Raven Guard.
Not entirely true. An FMC has 3 modes: Doing Nothing, Swooping, or Gliding. And FMC is not required to be Swooping or Gliding unless it is moving.
And what it does at the start of turn is pointless for this discussion since what we are looking at is its status during deployment, i.e. when you declare a unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves. Without a Movement Phase to choose Gliding or Swooping, what does it count as during deployment and when you cannot choose?
Its stupid, but its RAW. But I'm smart enough to know when to override stupid RAW, like with Drop Pods.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/05 15:58:19
Subject: Re:Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
I don't see this third do nothing option in the rules posted for FMCs.
"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."
I mean it actually says two and not three. And moving 0 inches (ie do nothing) is a valid option while gliding since the jump rules allow you to move like your base unit type of a MC.
So at the start of it's movement, you say it's in gliding mode, then you declare it is not moving, then move on to the next unit. Although, I admit, I don't have my rulebook handy so I would need to double check the language in the movement phase rules to verify that you have/how to declare a unit is not moving.
2016/01/05 16:29:18
Subject: Re:Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lusiphur wrote: I don't see this third do nothing option in the rules posted for FMCs.
"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."
I mean it actually says two and not three. And moving 0 inches (ie do nothing) is a valid option while gliding since the jump rules allow you to move like your base unit type of a MC.
So at the start of it's movement, you say it's in gliding mode, then you declare it is not moving, then move on to the next unit. Although, I admit, I don't have my rulebook handy so I would need to double check the language in the movement phase rules to verify that you have/how to declare a unit is not moving.
"Can move" being the option of the choice. It is not a requirement to choose if one is not moving. Also, again, it is not an option during deployment which is the key point to this thread. What they do in the Movement Phase is rather irrelevant.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/05 17:44:04
Subject: Re:Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
When you are putting units into DSR, is the FMC swooping or gliding? If it is neither then you do not have permission to treat is as a jump unit.
Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)
2016/01/05 19:41:40
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
In this Unit Type description for FMC, FMC are described as moving like Jump units.
So it is abundantly clear that FMC are described as moving like Jump units. Therefore FMC have Deep Strike.
let me help you out
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
You see that first word ? Its a conditional requirement. Now here comes the problem of your entire argument.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.
Does FMC have the deepstrike rule ? No they do not.
Do FMC that are swooping/gliding , have the DS rule . Yes they get it through the exactly as a JMC portion of the sweeping/gliding rule.
Do FMC have swooping/gliding by default ? No they do not.
How do FMC get swooping gliding ?
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glidingmode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swoopingor Gliding until the start of its next turn
So when you put a FMC into DS reserve , you have not followed any of the above , it cannont be in a gliding or swooping mode. If its not in either , it does not behave exactly as a JMC , which means it does not have deepstrike special rule and cannont be placed there
You have failed to follow the language and logic of the rules. Your entire argument is invalid.
The rule asks if the FMC unit type is described as moving like a jump unit. I have pointed to the FMC unit type description and indeed in that description the FMC is described as moving like a jump unit. So the FMC is granted Deep Strike.
You are not permitted to add conditionals where the rules have none. The rules do not say "while a unit is moving like a jump unit, follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules". You are literally making that stuff up. Adhere to the actual language and logic in the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OIIIIIIO wrote: When you are putting units into DSR, is the FMC swooping or gliding? If it is neither then you do not have permission to treat is as a jump unit.
That's not what the rule asks of you. The rule asks if the FMC unit type is described as moving like a jump unit.
If you look at the description of the FMC unit type does it include something which describes the FMC as moving like a jump unit? Yes. Therefore it has Deep Strike
Not entirely true. An FMC has 3 modes: Doing Nothing, Swooping, or Gliding. And FMC is not required to be Swooping or Gliding unless it is moving.
And what it does at the start of turn is pointless for this discussion since what we are looking at is its status during deployment, i.e. when you declare a unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves. Without a Movement Phase to choose Gliding or Swooping, what does it count as during deployment and when you cannot choose?
Its stupid, but its RAW. But I'm smart enough to know when to override stupid RAW, like with Drop Pods.
Incorrect. The rules don't ask for its status during deployment. The rules ask if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". You determine if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" by looking at the unit type description. Indeed the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". Therefore it has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 19:52:51
2016/01/05 20:41:40
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Not entirely true. An FMC has 3 modes: Doing Nothing, Swooping, or Gliding. And FMC is not required to be Swooping or Gliding unless it is moving.
And what it does at the start of turn is pointless for this discussion since what we are looking at is its status during deployment, i.e. when you declare a unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves. Without a Movement Phase to choose Gliding or Swooping, what does it count as during deployment and when you cannot choose?
Its stupid, but its RAW. But I'm smart enough to know when to override stupid RAW, like with Drop Pods.
Incorrect. The rules don't ask for its status during deployment. The rules ask if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". You determine if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" by looking at the unit type description. Indeed the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit". Therefore it has Deep Strike.
It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Zooming, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
And in order to choose Deep Strike as an option, it must have Deep Strike (or be Embarked one that is) during Deployment when Reserves are announced. At this point, the FMC is not Gliding nor Swooping, so not described as moving like a Jump Unit. Since it is not described as moving like a Jump unit at this point, it is NOT a Jump unit so natively does not have Deep Strike.
As I said, this is stupid and we're smarter than that. It really should have stated that FMC have all the rules of a JMC and then added the Zooming Exceptions and saved us all a headache and saved them room to put more pretty pictures in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 20:57:32
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/05 20:46:44
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Charistoph wrote: It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Zooming, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
Incorrect. "Moving like a jump unit" is always on the description for the FMC unit type. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as "moving like a Jump unit". It's right there on the description.
The rule asks if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" not if the FMC is "moving like a jump unit".
If you fail to account for the semantics and logic of "described as" then your whole argument is invalid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 20:47:46
2016/01/05 20:50:53
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Charistoph wrote: It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Swooping, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
Incorrect. "Moving like a jump unit" is always on the description for the FMC unit type. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as "moving like a Jump unit". It's right there on the description.
The rule asks if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" not if the FMC is "moving like a jump unit".
If you fail to account for the semantics and logic of "described as" then your whole argument is invalid.
And that description is on a temporary basis which is only referenced while using Gliding or Swooping, and not at any other time, such as deployment. The Wings of Sanguinius Power would not have allowed a Librarian to begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves because it was not a constant status. Gliding and Swooping are not a status the FMC has in deployment, so does not have the JMC connection at that time.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/05 21:07:38
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Charistoph wrote: It is only described as moving like a Jump unit while Gliding or Swooping, which is determined at the beginning of the Movement Phase, not Deployment.
Incorrect. "Moving like a jump unit" is always on the description for the FMC unit type. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as "moving like a Jump unit". It's right there on the description.
The rule asks if the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit" not if the FMC is "moving like a jump unit".
If you fail to account for the semantics and logic of "described as" then your whole argument is invalid.
And that description is on a temporary basis which is only referenced while using Gliding or Swooping, and not at any other time, such as deployment. The Wings of Sanguinius Power would not have allowed a Librarian to begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves because it was not a constant status. Gliding and Swooping are not a status the FMC has in deployment, so does not have the JMC connection at that time.
Incorrect. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the FMC unit type description even when they are not actively being called upon. I can definitively point to Gliding and Swooping on FMC unit type description and it indeed 100% true and always true that the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit".
You are failing to account for the language and logic of "described as". Your entire argument is invalid.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The glide and swoop rules are a part of the FMC unit type description and therefore are always a part of their description.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 21:08:16
2016/01/05 21:12:35
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
col_impact wrote: Incorrect. The Gliding and Swooping rules are always on the FMC unit type description even when they are not actively being called upon. I can definitively point to Gliding and Swooping on FMC unit type description and it indeed 100% true and always true that the FMC is "described as moving like a Jump unit".
You are failing to account for the language and logic of "described as". Your entire argument is invalid.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The glide and swoop rules are a part of the FMC unit type description and therefore are always a part of their description.
I am taking it in to account when it tells me to take it in to account. You are suggesting that we must take it in to account at all times, which is not stated by these rules.
If a unit had a Special Rule that allowed it to move like a Jump Infantry in the Assault Phase, would you still allow for it to Deep Strike? Your reasoning above says you do.
Would you allow a Librarian with Wings of Sanguinius Pyschic Power, no TDA, no Jump Pack to Deep Strike alone? Your reasoning above says you do.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
