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col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Which rule is in the rulebook?

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

And thank you for not answering the question.

So, to you, conditions stated RAW do not matter, nor do they count?

The rule is expressed the way it is. I adhere to the language and logic of the rule.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

That's the way English works. If you have a problem with it you have a problem with the way GW writes rules, not with me. I am just reading the rule and applying the rule as it is written.

I suggest you e-mail GW and tell them you are offended by their use of "described as" in their rule. Meanwhile, I will follow the rules as they are written.

You seem to have a sincere incapacity to actually understand a case presented to you regarding this. I am not offended by their use of "described as". I have not stated this, nor suggested this. I am offended by your inability to recognize conditions the rules themselves state as applying.

FlingitNow wrote:

And the conditions to those descriptions do not matter or count? 

Not fulfil the requirement of being "described as moving like Jump units".

And the rule and reasoning behind that is what, when conditions and requirements matter for every other rule in the game?

Charistoph wrote:

You seem to have a sincere incapacity to actually understand a case presented to you regarding this. I am not offended by their use of "described as". I have not stated this, nor suggested this. I am offended by your inability to recognize conditions the rules themselves state as applying.

You can be offended however way you like. It still does not change the rules as they are written.



My argument still stands uncontested.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .


Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

Col I can agree that both A & B has provision in it to allow Deep Strike but, and this is the problem that has been highlighted time and again by others at what point do you determine whether the unit is A or B? And this is the crux of the problem, even though both A and B lead to the same outcome, the determination of that state is after the decision to put the unit into DSR.

Cheers

Andrew

Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:

vundere wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

Proven wrong by the FMC rules.

Elucidate and expand your answer.

FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.

When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..

Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.

The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

Fragile wrote:
The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.

Cheers

Andrew

Incorrect. You are not adhering to the language and logic of this rule . . .



In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact the in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore this rule is satisfied . . .



Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

You seem to have a sincere incapacity to actually understand a case presented to you regarding this. I am not offended by their use of "described as". I have not stated this, nor suggested this. I am offended by your inability to recognize conditions the rules themselves state as applying.

You can be offended however way you like. It still does not change the rules as they are written.

Spoiler:

Charistoph wrote:


Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Which rule is in the rulebook?

My argument still stands uncontested.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Both A and B will satisfy this rule . . .

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

I'm sorry, where does is state that "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units ALWAYS follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE NOT DESCRIBED AS MOVING LIKE A JUMP UNIT."

You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.

Fragile wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:

vundere wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
It does not mean that there is some mythical point in time before the game were the FMC is described as not moving like a jump and has some undefined and unused movement option in place.

Probably not very relevant, but as FMCs are described as MCs with extra rules, theoretically they have the same movement rules as an MC, although they are never permitted to use this in game.

Proven wrong by the FMC rules.

Elucidate and expand your answer.

FMCs CAN Glide or Swoop. When Gliding, they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. A Jump Monstrous Creature can either Jump or move like a Monstrous Creature.

When deployed, they are either Swooping or Gliding, depending on how it was deployed. At the beginning of the Movement Phase, the FMC must be declared as Gliding or Swooping..

Any time before that, they only benefit from MC rules and their Datasheet rules.

The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

Not QUITE factual. To be accurate, they can only move like Jump AFTER THEY DEPLOY. This status is NOT listed as "always on" like many other rules.

A very stupid way to do it no matter the intention behind this situation.

Charistoph wrote:

You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.

The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.

In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .



Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

col_impact wrote:

The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.

Except you keep misusing the term "decribed as" with what you are doing "partially described as" and somehow are thinking its the same thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/partially
"being such in part only; not total or general; incomplete: "

col_impact wrote:
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

It never states this , if it did we wouldn't have this 8 page post

col_impact wrote:
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

No matter how many times you type it , a and b are never equal . They are not the same thing . B is never stated in the rules , but you keep using it

col_impact wrote:
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

No. A is described as "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
B doesn't even exist in the rules you keep posting. B is partialy describing A ( which you have ZERO rules to tell you to do this , yet you keep doing it )

col_impact wrote:
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .

Not including "The presence or absence of conditionals" means you are not describing as it is in the description , which is what required when describing it.

col_impact wrote:
does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Except it does , because they you are not descbinging it as it is in the description , you are making up your own definition in doing so , you do not have permissions in the ruleset to do so

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Which is great , except that it is never stated in the rules that it is described as ‘moving like’ Jump units

col_impact wrote:
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.

Except you keep misusing the term "decribed as" with what you are doing "partially described as" and somehow are thinking its the same thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/partially
"being such in part only; not total or general; incomplete: "

col_impact wrote:
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

It never states this , if it did we wouldn't have this 8 page post

col_impact wrote:
A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

No matter how many times you type it , a and b are never equal . They are not the same thing . B is never stated in the rules , but you keep using it

col_impact wrote:
In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

No. A is described as "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
B doesn't even exist in the rules you keep posting. B is partialy describing A ( which you have ZERO rules to tell you to do this , yet you keep doing it )

col_impact wrote:
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .

Not including "The presence or absence of conditionals" means you are not describing as it is in the description , which is what required when describing it.

col_impact wrote:
does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Except it does , because they you are not descbinging it as it is in the description , you are making up your own definition in doing so , you do not have permissions in the ruleset to do so

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Which is great , except that it is never stated in the rules that it is described as ‘moving like’ Jump units

col_impact wrote:
Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

You started with flawed logic from the start , "described as" ≠ "partialy described as"
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. " ≠ described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Your whole argument is invalid. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as a Jump unit. The rule does not care if the FMC is actually in the process of moving like a Jump unit.

The unit type description includes this:



In that statement the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore this rule is satisfied . . .


Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

Your going to hand wave definitions that disprove your use of the English language ?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.

The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.

I am not ignoring it. However, you have been misinterpreting it to try and allow you to ignore the conditions set in the FMC rules. "Being described as" is not an "always" condition if the "description" is also under conditions as well.

col_impact wrote:
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .

There is a huge difference between A and B, though. And the fact that you do not recognize it indicates that you are refusing to acknowledge the full rules of the Unit Type.

Logic is satisfied, but only when recognition of the conditions in play are provided. FMCs are Jump units when Gliding or Swooping. They have Deep Strike while Gliding or Swooping are being used. But being a Jump unit is not a default condition of the FMC, unfortunately and stupidly.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping. That is what the FMC rules state.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.

The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.

I am not ignoring it. However, you have been misinterpreting it to try and allow you to ignore the conditions set in the FMC rules. "Being described as" is not an "always" condition if the "description" is also under conditions as well.

col_impact wrote:
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .

There is a huge difference between A and B, though. And the fact that you do not recognize it indicates that you are refusing to acknowledge the full rules of the Unit Type.

Logic is satisfied, but only when recognition of the conditions in play are provided. FMCs are Jump units when Gliding or Swooping. They have Deep Strike while Gliding or Swooping are being used. But being a Jump unit is not a default condition of the FMC, unfortunately and stupidly.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping. That is what the FMC rules state.

Incorrect. You keep failing to adhere to the language and logic of the rule.


This rule wants to know, yes or no, if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

To do that the BRB tells us to look at the unit type description for the FMC. On there we find this rule.


Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore this rule is satisfied.



The rule does not care when the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit only that it indeed is described as moving like a Jump unit. That is simply how the rule is written. That is how the logic of the rule works.

If you have a problem with the way the rule is written, discuss the matter with GW or perhaps you can convince your opponent to house rule it however you want to play it. Meanwhile I will follow the rule as it is written.

col_impact wrote:

Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.

Incorrect. The rules make it clear that moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature is moving like a Jump unit.

col_impact wrote:

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.

Incorrect. The rules make it clear that moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature is moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

And yet it never "moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature"

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

The answer is no and has been pointed out multiple times.

Incorrect. The rules make it clear that moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature is moving like a Jump unit.

Spoiler:

Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

And yet it never "moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature"

The rules disagree with you.

col_impact wrote:


The rules disagree with you.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..

Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The rules disagree with you.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..

Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?

Incorrect.

" . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" satisfies ‘moving like’ Jump units.

If you are saying otherwise you are being overly pedantic and your argument can be dismissed readily as such.

And the rule and reasoning behind that is what, when conditions and requirements matter for every other rule in the game?

It all depends on how the rule is written. By your argument if a model with stealth is at the back of a unit being fired at none of his comrades benefit as they don't have the special rule. Rules tell you what conditions need to be met in Stealth it tells you that only 1 model in the unit needs to have the rule for the unit to benefit. In Jump Unit the unit must merely be described as moving like a jump unit to benefit, it doesn't need to be moving as jump infantry.

It is almost like the words matter.

col_impact wrote:

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The rules disagree with you.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..

Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?

Incorrect.

" . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" satisfies ‘moving like’ Jump units.

If you are saying otherwise you are being overly pedantic and your argument can be dismissed readily as such.

It can't be dismissed cause that is exactly how it is written and exactly how the definitions of the words that , we both , keep using. You insist on quoting something that is "partially described as" and passing it off as "described as" and you have no rules to tell you to do that . You are doing sometihng not in the rules , and by nature of a permissive rule set , need to stop doing so

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:

kambien wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The rules disagree with you.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..

Whoa whoa , i asked for "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. " in the FMC entry not
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" is not what i asked for. Are you going to provide the quote of it being described as " moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" or not ?

Incorrect.

" . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" satisfies ‘moving like’ Jump units.

If you are saying otherwise you are being overly pedantic and your argument can be dismissed readily as such.

It can't be dismissed cause that is exactly how it is written and exactly how the definitions of the words that , we both , keep using. You insist on quoting something that is "partially described as" and passing it off as "described as" and you have no rules to tell you to do that . You are doing sometihng not in the rules , and by nature of a permissive rule set , need to stop doing so

No one else agrees with your pendantic line of argumentation. Give it up.

The thread generally recognizes " . . . moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" as the equivalent of 'moving like' Jump units. That is not what is at issue here.

Fragile wrote:
One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

This is never stated.

Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?

If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.

Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

This is never stated.

Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?

If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.

Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?

This.

By the same logic that says an FMC gains the Jump rules at all times, you could also conclude that it is Hard to Hit at all times because it is described as such on its static unit type description.
However, both the Jump rule and Hard to Hit are rules given to a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and/or a Swooping Monstrous Creature.

 AndrewC wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.

Cheers

Andrew

Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.

Not QUITE factual. To be accurate, they can only move like Jump AFTER THEY DEPLOY. This status is NOT listed as "always on" like many other rules.

A very stupid way to do it no matter the intention behind this situation.

It is exactly factual. You are the one adding wording to the rules. They are MCs, however they move like Jump in all the ways they move. Nothing in the rule states they do so after deployment. You are simply trying to justify a condition that does not exist. They are described as moving like Jump. That is all that is required to satisfy the rule. Unless you can find a rule that shows models move while in reserve, models have to be able to move to be in reserve. Until then your condition does not exist, as all moves done in the Movement Phase are Jump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

This is never stated.

Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?

If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.

Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?

How is it not stated? They can move two ways. Only two. Both are described as moving like Jump. Show me a rule that lets them move a third.

vundere wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

This is never stated.

Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?

If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.

Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?

This.

By the same logic that says an FMC gains the Jump rules at all times, you could also conclude that it is Hard to Hit at all times because it is described as such on its static unit type description.
However, both the Jump rule and Hard to Hit are rules given to a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and/or a Swooping Monstrous Creature.

Nope however the statement "are FMCs described as hard to hit" is always true. Despite the fact they are not always hard to hit. So why the glide and swoop modes are not always ineffect the Jump Unit rule doesn't care about that it only cares if they are described as moving like jump units.

Fragile wrote:

Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.

To use your own words, incorrect.

You are quite accurate in your assertion that FMCs can only move in one of two flight modes, however both movements are entirely conditional by the way they are written. Poor writing on behalf of GW? Probably.

So the rule, as written, is entirely conditional on the flight mode chosen. And according to the rule the moved as jump unit doesn't kick in until then. But the decision as to which flight mode is used is after the DSR choice.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.

To use your own words, incorrect.

You are quite accurate in your assertion that FMCs can only move in one of two flight modes, however both movements are entirely conditional by the way they are written. Poor writing on behalf of GW? Probably.

So the rule, as written, is entirely conditional on the flight mode chosen. And according to the rule the moved as jump unit doesn't kick in until then. But the decision as to which flight mode is used is after the DSR choice.

Cheers

Andrew

Incorrect.

This rule does not care when the rule kicks in, only that the rule describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit. That's how the logic of "described as" works.



Since the above rule is satisfied, the FMC has Deep Strike and can enter Deep Strike Reserve.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

You cannot get around the fact that the description is based on a condition in the FMC's rules. You have yet presented any evidence that allows you to ignore this condition.

The rules are all the evidence that I need. You are the one ignoring the "described as" phrase in the rule, not I.

I am not ignoring it. However, you have been misinterpreting it to try and allow you to ignore the conditions set in the FMC rules. "Being described as" is not an "always" condition if the "description" is also under conditions as well.

col_impact wrote:
In the unit type description the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

A) If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..
B) The FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

In both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
The presence or absence of conditionals does not change the fact that in both A and B the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore the logic of this rule is satisfied . . .

There is a huge difference between A and B, though. And the fact that you do not recognize it indicates that you are refusing to acknowledge the full rules of the Unit Type.

Logic is satisfied, but only when recognition of the conditions in play are provided. FMCs are Jump units when Gliding or Swooping. They have Deep Strike while Gliding or Swooping are being used. But being a Jump unit is not a default condition of the FMC, unfortunately and stupidly.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping. That is what the FMC rules state.

Incorrect. You keep failing to adhere to the language and logic of the rule.

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

This rule wants to know, yes or no, if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.

And the FMC rules insists that this description is only in play while Gliding or Swooping. You keep failing to adhere to THIS language and logic of THESE rules. The Jump rules do not override this in any fashion.

col_impact wrote:To do that the BRB tells us to look at the unit type description for the FMC. On there we find this rule.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..

Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. The unit is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.

Therefore this rule is satisfied.

Your continuous failure at deconstructing the pertinent rules you just quoted above hovers on the realm of trolling.

Is the FMC described as moving like a Jump unit?

The Answer is, "if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" or "if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swopping". These are the conditions that direct us to the Jump unit rules.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

The rule does not care when the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit only that it indeed is described as moving like a Jump unit. That is simply how the rule is written. That is how the logic of the rule works.

This rule does not, but the FMC rules do. And since we are talking about FMC rules, their conditions provide the primacy regarding their ability to access.

col_impact wrote:If you have a problem with the way the rule is written, discuss the matter with GW or perhaps you can convince your opponent to house rule it however you want to play it. Meanwhile I will follow the rule as it is written.

While ignoring two other Rules As Written. Bravo.

FlingitNow wrote:

And the rule and reasoning behind that is what, when conditions and requirements matter for every other rule in the game?

It all depends on how the rule is written. By your argument if a model with stealth is at the back of a unit being fired at none of his comrades benefit as they don't have the special rule. Rules tell you what conditions need to be met in Stealth it tells you that only 1 model in the unit needs to have the rule for the unit to benefit. In Jump Unit the unit must merely be described as moving like a jump unit to benefit, it doesn't need to be moving as jump infantry.

It is almost like the words matter.

Yes, it IS almost like the words matter.

Stealth's condition is that at least one model have the rule for the unit to benefit. Fearless's condition is that at least one model has the rule and it is taking a Morale Check, Fear, Regroup, or Pinning Test in order to automatically pass a Leadership Test.

While Jump's condition is that they are described as moving like a Jump unit, FMC's conditions to be described as moving like Jump unit is IF the FMC is Gliding or Swooping.

Fragile wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The rules state that FMCs are MCs that have additional rules. One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

Agreed, but those rules allowing them to move as jump are conditional. A condition that can only be invoked when they move. Is it RAI? probably not and FMC were intended to deep strike, but that conditional IF at the start of each sentence, even thought they both have the same outcome, in a linear permissive rule set, moves the determination/allowance to DS after the ability to decide to DS.

Cheers

Andrew

Incorrect. Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding. There is nothing conditional about that rule. FMCs move only 2 ways. They do not have an option of any third.

Quite Correct. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.

Fragile wrote:

Not QUITE factual. To be accurate, they can only move like Jump AFTER THEY DEPLOY. This status is NOT listed as "always on" like many other rules.

A very stupid way to do it no matter the intention behind this situation.

It is exactly factual. You are the one adding wording to the rules. They are MCs, however they move like Jump in all the ways they move. Nothing in the rule states they do so after deployment. You are simply trying to justify a condition that does not exist. They are described as moving like Jump. That is all that is required to satisfy the rule. Unless you can find a rule that shows models move while in reserve, models have to be able to move to be in reserve. Until then your condition does not exist, as all moves done in the Movement Phase are Jump.

Incorrect. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.

I have not added ANY wording to these rules. These wordings come from the FMC's rules themselves.

Fragile wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
One of those additional rules is that FMCs can only move like Jump.

This is never stated.

Can the other side at least acknowledge that the entry says "If"?

If is a very important word in every statement that maters for this arguement.

Is this statement true? -- At no point does the fmc entry give a blanket statement in absolute terms about how a FMC moves. It offers conditionals and options. Agree?

How is it not stated? They can move two ways. Only two. Both are described as moving like Jump. Show me a rule that lets them move a third.

But they can only move in these two ways while being deployed, and are never noted as being under these conditions until it is deployed.

Unless you can demonstrate that the FMC is under either JMC, Gliding, or Swooping at ALL times within in the FMC's rules, or at least without a condition like "if"?

No one has yet.

Charistoph wrote:


Quite Correct. FMC's are described as moving like a Jump Unit if Gliding or Swooping. They are placed in Gliding or Swooping when deployed and are not noted as doing so before.
.

I didnt see "Transformer" in their rules. So they walk onto the battlefield then sprout wings and become FMCs to fly? No.

There is no 3rd movement mode. They either Glide or Swoop at all times. The conditional you keep citing is to show they cannot do both at the same time.