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col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.

Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).

Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.

According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.

Wat?

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
When do models move ?

during the movement phase.

And how does a FMC move during the movement phase?

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.

Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).

Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.

According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.

Wat?

Incorrect. You fail at reading comprehension. Glide and Swoop are rules that are always on the unit type description even though the FMC may not be currently gliding or swooping. You simply have to open your rule book and see that those rules are on there. According to the rules, its the Unit Types section that describes the units that make up 40k. The rule that grants Deep Strike to the FMC only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
When do models move ?

during the movement phase.

And how does a FMC move during the movement phase?

That is dependent on the mode selected at the beginning of it's move.

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
When do models move ?

during the movement phase.

And how does a FMC move during the movement phase?

That is dependent on the mode selected at the beginning of it's move.

And no matter which mode you select, it moves like a Jump MC, correct ?

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.

Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).

Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.

According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.

Wat?

Incorrect. You fail at reading comprehension. Glide and Swoop are rules that are always on the unit type description even though the FMC may not be currently gliding or swooping. You simply have to open your rule book and see that those rules are on there. According to the rules, its the Unit Types section that describes the units that make up 40k. The rule that grants Deep Strike to the FMC only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.

False. The exact quote... The direct rule.... The raw is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." The word if makes it so that the FMC, when not gliding, is not described as doing that. And therefore it is not always described as doing that. There fore not getting those rules when not doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
When do models move ?

during the movement phase.

And how does a FMC move during the movement phase?

That is dependent on the mode selected at the beginning of it's move.

And no matter which mode you select, it moves like a Jump MC, correct ?

Nope. Glide I exactly like a jump mc. Swoop has a list of exceptions.

Is the FMC moving before deployment?

Lance845 wrote:

False. The exact quote... The direct rule.... The raw is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." The word if makes it so that the FMC, when not gliding, is not described as doing that. And therefore it is not always described as doing that. There fore not getting those rules when not doing that.

Incorrect. The rules tell us that its the Unit Type section that describes the FMC unit.



The Glide (or Swoop) rule is always on the unit type description for the FMC and so is always part of the description and describes the FMC as part of the Unit Type description. The conditional determines when the rule is in effect or comes into play, not when it is part of the description. The Glide rule is always on the page of the BRB that describes the FMC and always describes the FMC.



The rules only care that the FMC unit is described as moving like a Jump unit, not whether or not the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit or whether or not Glide or Swoop are currently in effect.

When we look at the unit type description for the FMC, we can see that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore, the FMC has Deep Strike.

col_impact wrote:

The rules only care that the FMC unit is described as moving like a Jump unit,

and yet it never is described as such

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.

Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).

Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.

Actually, I CAN assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping because those are the only places it is mentioned in the Unit Type. I just demonstrated that. Or are you saying that because a Jump unit can ignore intervening terrain during one Phase, it can ignore them in every Phase? If they use their Jump Packs in the Movement Phase, do they still get Hammer of Wrath on the Charge (and I'm not counting Raven Guard and similar)?

The FMC rules do NOT describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. If you truly believe such, please quote the FMC unit type rules again and highlight every single instance where it describes the FMC moving like a Jump MC. Also highlight where it says the FMC is using Glide and Swoop. Because this is as close as you'll get to proving your case.

Charistoph wrote:

Actually, I CAN assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping because those are the only places it is mentioned in the Unit Type. I just demonstrated that. Or are you saying that because a Jump unit can ignore intervening terrain during one Phase, it can ignore them in every Phase? If they use their Jump Packs in the Movement Phase, do they still get Hammer of Wrath on the Charge (and I'm not counting Raven Guard and similar)?

The FMC rules do NOT describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. If you truly believe such, please quote the FMC unit type rules again and highlight every single instance where it describes the FMC moving like a Jump MC. Also highlight where it says the FMC is using Glide and Swoop. Because this is as close as you'll get to proving your case.

You keep failing at dealing with the language and logic of the rule. The rule uses "described as". To satisfy the rule something needs to only be on the description of the unit.

Whether or not the FMC is gliding or swooping, the Gliding or Swooping rules still describe the FMC. The Gliding or Swooping rules are always on the Unit Type description - the words for those rules never disappear from the pages of the unit type description where the FMC is described.

The rules only care that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. They do not care whether the current status of the FMC is Gliding or Swooping or whether the Gliding or Swooping rules are actually in effect. Since the Gliding or Swooping rules are on the Unit Type description for the FMC - where the rules tell us that units are described - we know for sure that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

You are putting the em-PHA-sis on the wrong sy-LA-ble, I mean word in the sentence. If is the word you are ignoring.

Lance845 wrote:
You are putting the em-PHA-sis on the wrong sy-LA-ble, I mean word in the sentence. If is the word you are ignoring.

Nope, I am adhering strictly to the language and logic in the rule itself. The rule says "described as". Your argument is invalid since you ignore the language and logic in the rule itself.

col_impact, by your reasoning then is a basic Tau Commander Jet Pack Infantry but also follows all the rules for Jump units and uses the same special rules?

It has the option of taking an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit, which if taken changes its unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) so by your reasoning, even if it does not choose to take the upgrade, it is described as moving like a Jump unit by virtue of potentially being a FMC and so gains all the appropriate rules, then?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
col_impact, by your reasoning then is a basic Tau Commander Jet Pack Infantry but also follows all the rules for Jump units and uses the same special rules?

It has the option of taking an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit, which if taken changes its unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) so by your reasoning, even if it does not choose to take the upgrade, it is described as moving like a Jump unit by virtue of potentially being a FMC and so gains all the appropriate rules, then?

Upgrades or options have to be purchased or selected to become part of a unit's description. The options add descriptions or replace descriptions. That's how ALE work.


Are Swooping or Gliding optional upgrades for Flying Monstrous Creatures? Nope.

In the case of the Commander, the description in question is part of the Datasheet.

And Swooping and Gliding may not be optional upgrades, but they are individually optional flight mode selections.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
In the case of the Commander, the description in question is part of the Datasheet.

If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.

A more specific rule trumps a less specific one. The FMC rule states IF. The conditional statement trumps the more general one.

Lance845 wrote:
A more specific rule trumps a less specific one. The FMC rule states IF. The conditional statement trumps the more general one.

Using the actual rule printed in the BRB trumps using a rule that is not in the BRB.

A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."


Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.

Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.

Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?

col_impact wrote:
If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.

If you select the Swooping or Gliding flight move then it is the unit's description. If you don't (or more relevantly cannot) then it is not.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Note that the rule doesn't ask that the unit have the description as part of their unit type description, but that they are described as 'moving like' Jump units.

A Flying Monstrous Creature is only described as moving line a Jump unit when Swooping or Gliding.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.

If you select the Swooping or Gliding flight move then it is part of the unit description. If you don't (or more relevantly cannot) then it is not.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Incorrect. Gliding or Swooping rules are always on the Unit Type description by definition. There is no option for taking them off the FMC unit type description.

Try again? Next time, adhere to the actual language and logic in the rules themselves.

Please see my edited post.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you select the option then it is part of the unit description. If you don't then it is not part of the unit description. That's how ALE work.

If you select the Swooping or Gliding flight move then it is the unit's description. If you don't (or more relevantly cannot) then it is not.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Note that the rule doesn't ask that the unit have the description as part of their unit type description, but that they are described as 'moving like' Jump units.

A Flying Monstrous Creature is only described as moving line a Jump unit when Swooping or Gliding.

Incorrect. A FMC is only moving like a Jump unit when swooping or gliding.

However, a FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit. Its description is static and independent of its current state which could be gliding or swooping. Whether or not the FMC is currently gliding or swooping, the Gliding or Swooping rule is on its description and describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit.

We know that the FMC is unequivocally described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.

Page 13 brb. Basic vs advanced. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm, or even a tank).

The jump unit describes how a unit that is described as being like a jump unit confers it's special rules onto the unit. But more specifically the FMC listing has conditional statements to those rules conferring. The FMC must be gliding to move like a jump mc. The fmc must be swooping to be moving like a jump mc. The more specific FMC entry trumps the broader more generic jump entry, if for no other reason then it's entry is specifically about fmcs and the jump entry rule you are relying on is about nobody in particular.

Lance845 wrote:
Page 13 brb. Basic vs advanced. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm, or even a tank).

The jump unit describes how a unit that is described as being like a jump unit confers it's special rules onto the unit. But more specifically the FMC listing has conditional statements to those rules conferring. The FMC must be gliding to move like a jump mc. The fmc must be swooping to be moving like a jump mc. The more specific FMC entry trumps the broader more generic jump entry, if for no other reason then it's entry is specifically about fmcs and the jump entry rule you are relying on is about nobody in particular.

You are wrongly applying Basic vs Advanced.

Just apply the rule and adhere to the language and logic in the rule.



And please make careful note that the rule is not written like this . . .

Again, the rule you are quoting is the basic to the FMC advanced. The FMC states that the FMC mud be doing something to be described as moving like a jump mc. The more advanced and more specific rule overrides the less specific.

Lance845 wrote:
Again, the rule you are quoting is the basic to the FMC advanced. The FMC states that the FMC mud be doing something to be described as moving like a jump mc. The more advanced and more specific rule overrides the less specific.

Again, you are wrongly applying Basic vs Advanced.

The rule simply asks if a unit is described as moving like a Jump unit. In the case of the FMC yes it is - you just look at the unit type description for FMC. Therefore it has Deep Strike.

My only issue is that a FMC has a list of special rules that are granted by being FMC and are listed, Jink and Vector Strike.
If they had wanted it to have the deepstike capability they could have easily tightened the whole thing up by adding a comma and writing, as they did for Angelic Wing in the BA codex, that it also gains jump.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
My only issue is that a FMC has a list of special rules that are granted by being FMC and are listed, Jink and Vector Strike.
If they had wanted it to have the deepstike capability they could have easily tightened the whole thing up by adding a comma and writing, as they did for Angelic Wing in the BA codex, that it also gains jump.

Likewise they could have just made the first sentence of the entry "flying monstrous creatures are jump monstrous creatures that have a number of additional rules."

They did neither of those things.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Actually, I CAN assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping because those are the only places it is mentioned in the Unit Type. I just demonstrated that. Or are you saying that because a Jump unit can ignore intervening terrain during one Phase, it can ignore them in every Phase? If they use their Jump Packs in the Movement Phase, do they still get Hammer of Wrath on the Charge (and I'm not counting Raven Guard and similar)?

The FMC rules do NOT describe the FMC moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. If you truly believe such, please quote the FMC unit type rules again and highlight every single instance where it describes the FMC moving like a Jump MC. Also highlight where it says the FMC is using Glide and Swoop. Because this is as close as you'll get to proving your case.

You keep failing at dealing with the language and logic of the rule. The rule uses "described as". To satisfy the rule something needs to only be on the description of the unit.

I do not keep failing. You keep ignoring the entire context of the whole unit type and all their rules taken together. You only take two sentences from the specific unit type in question and one sentence from the referenced unit type, while ignoring everything else connected to those sentences in the unit type's rules. You keep failing at dealing with the language and logic of these rules. In fact, you do not address these rules at all, not even to refute them.

I also note that you did not take up any of my challenges, save one. Scared of finding more proof against your assertions like the one?

col_impact wrote:Whether or not the FMC is gliding or swooping, the Gliding or Swooping rules still describe the FMC. The Gliding or Swooping rules are always on the Unit Type description - the words for those rules never disappear from the pages of the unit type description where the FMC is described.

Being present in the unit type is not the issue, it is when the unit type can access this rule that is the issue and you have not properly addressed. Remember your statement regarding the Psychic Power that granted Jump Movement? There is no difference in this case.

col_impact wrote:The rules only care that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. They do not care whether the current status of the FMC is Gliding or Swooping or whether the Gliding or Swooping rules are actually in effect. Since the Gliding or Swooping rules are on the Unit Type description for the FMC - where the rules tell us that units are described - we know for sure that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.

Incorrect. If a model has to trigger a rule to use it, it cannot receive any benefit from it before it gets triggered. The Jump rules do not change this standard. And FMCs must deploy in order to use Gliding or Swooping. The Unit Type's rules do not allow for anything else. A FMC does not state it always Glides or Swooping.

OIIIIIIO wrote:My only issue is that a FMC has a list of special rules that are granted by being FMC and are listed, Jink and Vector Strike.
If they had wanted it to have the deepstike capability they could have easily tightened the whole thing up by adding a comma and writing, as they did for Angelic Wing in the BA codex, that it also gains jump.

Indeed, or just where it states that a FMC is a Monstrous Creature it instead that a FMC is a JUMP Monstrous Creature, it would save a huge headache.

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It is also unequivocally asserted that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping. It is also unequivocally asserted the FMC is only give this status when deploying and changes this status from one to the other during the Movement Phase.

Sure, they get Deep Strike, that's not the problem. The problem is that they get Deep Strike AFTER they DEPLOY. Since they do not have Deep Strike until after they are deployed, they cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserves before the game begins. Afterwards, sure, no problem (the hard part is getting there).

Incorrect. You cannot assert that the FMC is only described as moving like a Jump unit when Gliding or Swooping.The unit type section is what describes the FMC and it is a static description that always describes the FMC. Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description for the FMC even when they are not currently in effect. An FMC is always described as moving like a Jump unit even when those rules are not in effect. Saying something is described as moving like X is wholly different than saying something is moving like X.

According to this a FMC is gliding and swooping at all times. Which means it must move a minimum of 12" all shots are snap shots. It can be grounded. It both can charge as a jump mc AND cannot charge at all. While also being impossible to charge. Models can simultaneously move under them and it blocks movement.

Wat?

Incorrect. You fail at reading comprehension. Glide and Swoop are rules that are always on the unit type description even though the FMC may not be currently gliding or swooping. You simply have to open your rule book and see that those rules are on there. According to the rules, its the Unit Types section that describes the units that make up 40k. The rule that grants Deep Strike to the FMC only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit, not that the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit.

False. The exact quote... The direct rule.... The raw is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." The word if makes it so that the FMC, when not gliding, is not described as doing that. And therefore it is not always described as doing that. There fore not getting those rules when not doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
When do models move ?

during the movement phase.

And how does a FMC move during the movement phase?

That is dependent on the mode selected at the beginning of it's move.

And no matter which mode you select, it moves like a Jump MC, correct ?

Nope. Glide I exactly like a jump mc. Swoop has a list of exceptions.

Is the FMC moving before deployment?

Again deployment is irrelevant. Something can only be described as moving like something else when it is moving which is during the movement phase. Both gliding and swooping are described as moving like jump. Therefore it gains the rules.