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A local Tyranid player is not certain he is allowed to Deep Strike his Flyrants because they can 'move like Jump Monstrous Creatures' but they don't technically have the rule which in turn grants the use of Deep Strike.

Is there anywhere in the rules that you guys could point me to that might clear this up for him definitively? He is trying to learn some tactics for his army and the ability to Deep Strike would be very helpful.

Yes he could do this. However it's a terrible idea a large model deepstriking and full scattering is not great. But much worse is when he deeps trikes he is not flying so he can be shot at with regular BS

Actually, deep striking fmc's must arrive from deep strike reserves in swooping mode, I believe. Hard to Hit is in effect.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Actually, deep striking fmc's must arrive from deep strike reserves in swooping mode, I believe. Hard to Hit is in effect.

Page reference?

No surprise, it's the last sentence under the heading 'Deployment' in the Flying Monstrous Creature Rules (pg. 68).

If they could arrive gliding, they could charge the turn after they arrive, which we know is not the case.

I can find the page and graph in a few minutes.

Edit: ninja'd on the reference.

Is there a specific text that explicitly gives FMCs for Tyranids Deep Strike? He was wanting some page references to justify the use. I assumed he could but he compared them to Daemons, who are explicitly given Deep Strike, versus Nids who don't have it listed and don't seem to have a special rule that explicitly grants it.

 Jstncloud wrote:
Is there a specific text that explicitly gives FMCs for Tyranids Deep Strike? He was wanting some page references to justify the use.

He was asking for a page reference in regards to Skarbrand's statement that a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives from Deep Strike Reserve must do so in Swooping mode.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:
Is there a specific text that explicitly gives FMCs for Tyranids Deep Strike? He was wanting some page references to justify the use.

He was asking for a page reference in regards to Skarbrand's statement that a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives from Deep Strike Reserve must do so in Swooping mode.

Thats not what I was asking though, I'm asking about FMCs in general that don't have the Deep Strike rule on their profile, are they allowed to Deep Strike? If so why/how and what rule(s) allow it. The only thing we found in the book was the line that says "move like Jump Monstrous Creatures" but moving like them dose not grant the specific rules that come along with that correct? (Jump Monstrous Creatures are allowed to Deep Strike, a Flying Hive Tyrant moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature but it technically is not one by trait)

That doesn't change the fact that is point dameanone brought up and was being corrected on.

He's not referring to anything posted in the thread. He's still talking about his friend from the OP

 Ghaz wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that is point dameanone brought up and was being corrected on.

I get it, I was trying to get an answer to my initial post sir.

 jokerkd wrote:
He's not referring to anything posted in the thread. He's still talking about his friend from the OP

Yup, just wanting to help him find out if his Flyrants can Deep Strike and if so where the supporting rules are. I told him I thought they could but he wasn't sure that he was allowed to and upon checking the rules we couldn't find anything specifically allowing them to do so.

I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.

So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike

 jokerkd wrote:
I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.

So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike

Thats exactly what he thought. Some of the posts above had me very confused. Thanks.

 jokerkd wrote:
I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.

So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike

Actually, it does.

2nd paragraph of Jump units, last sentence:

However, in order to take advantage of it, the FMC must be in Gliding Mode to "move like a Jump unit", and Deep Striking precludes the FMC from using the Gliding Mode, so the FMC being placed in Reserves cannot be declared to Deep Strike without another form of access.


That being said, most older players are so used to it, I would allow for it.

Charistoph, check the rule book. How does a Swooping fmc move?

As far as I can tell, FMCs can be deployed by Deep Strike as normal and count as being in swooping mode when they do so. The wording makes it seem like it is deployed like any other model and can't move after doing so, but counts as swooping for the purposes of being targeted etc.

 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph, check the rule book. How does a Swooping fmc move?

It's been a while for me and I could have sworn Swooping was its own thing, so let's review, especially since no one has actually quoted it in this thread, or any thread I've read about this recently:

Well, what do you know. Both Glide AND Swoop both move like a Jump MC. So, Deep Strike is as included as MTC is.

Sometimes doing your own research is important, but it should be noted that when people make their arguments, they include proper references.

Charistoph wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
I can't find my nids codex, but flying monstrous creatures do not gain the deep strike rule, and moving like a jump monstrous creature is not the same as deploying like one.

So, if you are sure there are no such rules in the codex, then they cannot deep strike

Actually, it does.

2nd paragraph of Jump units, last sentence:

Spoiler:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

However, in order to take advantage of it, the FMC must be in Gliding Mode to "move like a Jump unit", and Deep Striking precludes the FMC from using the Gliding Mode, so the FMC being placed in Reserves cannot be declared to Deep Strike without another form of access.


That being said, most older players are so used to it, I would allow for it.

But you could also say the FMC doesn't need to be "in a mode" to be "described as".

Another rule that'll never be clear.

Yeah, as Other above said, both Swooping and Gliding FMCs gain all the special rules of Jump units, including Deep Strike while in one of their movement modes. The main argument against them gaining Deep Strike stems from the poorly written FMC rules, because they do not describe how the FMC moves when it is neither Swooping or Gliding. You declare which flight mode you are in at the start of the FMC's move. So when it comes time to declare whether your FMC is in regular reserve or Deep Strike reserve, the FMC has not moved and is not in either flight mode, and so has no access to Jump special rules.

Personally I view this as poor rules writing and RAI is convincingly arguable that FMCs are allowed to Deep Strike, so I allow it with my opponents. YMMV.

eskimo wrote:But you could also say the FMC doesn't need to be "in a mode" to be "described as".

Another rule that'll never be clear.

Considering it needs to be in a Mode in order to gain such benefits, and considering at the time of that quote, if two modes are treated differently with different Benefits, being in a Mode is requisite.

Bojazz wrote:Yeah, as Other above said, both Swooping and Gliding FMCs gain all the special rules of Jump units, including Deep Strike while in one of their movement modes. The main argument against them gaining Deep Strike stems from the poorly written FMC rules, because they do not describe how the FMC moves when it is neither Swooping or Gliding. You declare which flight mode you are in at the start of the FMC's move. So when it comes time to declare whether your FMC is in regular reserve or Deep Strike reserve, the FMC has not moved and is not in either flight mode, and so has no access to Jump special rules.

Personally I view this as poor rules writing and RAI is convincingly arguable that FMCs are allowed to Deep Strike, so I allow it with my opponents. YMMV.

Considering an FMC only can be Gliding or Swooping and no provision is made for them not to be doing either, than it can qualify. Unless, you can point out where this does not qualify?

Seriously, they should have just started with adding "Jump" where it says "it has all the rules of a Monstrous Creature" and it would have been fine and simple.

Being "described as moving like a jump unit" is very different than "moving like a jump unit"

The FMC is always "described as moving like a jump unit" and is never not "described as moving like a jump unit".

The rules for Gliding and Swiping are always available as description of the FMC even while not actively in effect.

The FMC has Deep Strike. While sorting out Deep Strike Reserves, the answer to the question "is this unit described as moving like a jump unit?" is yes.

Or you can read through this one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/576454.page and then the mod can lock this one.

Charistoph wrote:
Considering an FMC only can be Gliding or Swooping and no provision is made for them not to be doing either, than it can qualify. Unless, you can point out where this does not qualify?

- You choose a Flight Mode at the beginning of the FMC's move. Not his movement phase, his Move.
- Flight Modes last until the beginning of your next turn.
When an FMC doesn't move during it's turn, then what movement mode is it in? The Flight Mode from the previous turn has expired, and it has not moved so cannot declare a new Flight Mode. It is in a state of "Flight Mode Limbo". In other words, it simply acts as a normal Monstrous Creature until it moves.

Bojazz wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Considering an FMC only can be Gliding or Swooping and no provision is made for them not to be doing either, than it can qualify. Unless, you can point out where this does not qualify?

- You choose a Flight Mode at the beginning of the FMC's move. Not his movement phase, his Move.
- Flight Modes last until the beginning of your next turn.
When an FMC doesn't move during it's turn, then what movement mode is it in? The Flight Mode from the previous turn has expired, and it has not moved so cannot declare a new Flight Mode. It is in a state of "Flight Mode Limbo". In other words, it simply acts as a normal Monstrous Creature until it moves.

Can you provide a quote that states that it is or "acts as" a normal Monstrous Creature? Here's a hint, you just missed referencing it.

Sure I can. First sentence under Flying Monstrous Creatures on page 68. "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules". A FMC who is not moving is not using any of the additional rules of Swooping or Gliding, and so is a Monstrous Creature by default. Now can you provide a quote that says you may use the Swooping or Gliding rules when your FMC hasn't moved?

This argument again.

OP, this boils down to two camps.

Pro DS: It moves like a Jump MC when it Glides or Swoops (with additional rules when it Swoops), as they are the only choices available, it must have DS. Pro side is 'always moves like Jump, therefore must have DS.'

Con DS: You select the Glide or Swoop mode when you (a) deploy him on the table, where he must be gliding, therefore too late to glide, (b) he arrives from reserves. At this point, you are yet to make the selection for Glide or Swoop, so don't have access to DS. When he arrives, you can say Swoop or Glide and gain DS, but you can't suddenly put him in DS reserves, as he didn't start the game there. Con side is basically a timing issue.

This argument is a rules interpretation. I play it as, you need the DS rule in your profile to actually DS (hence why I allow Daemon Princes to DS). But you'll need to decide in your gaming group how you're going to play it.

Bojazz wrote:
Sure I can. First sentence under Flying Monstrous Creatures on page 68. "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules". A FMC who is not moving is not using any of the additional rules of Swooping or Gliding, and so is a Monstrous Creature by default. Now can you provide a quote that says you may use the Swooping or Gliding rules when your FMC hasn't moved?

Nope, you missed it:

Flying Monstrous Creatures are offered the choice but are not required to use either one, but if they move, they must use either one. Technically speaking, the Gliding option allows for walking like a regular MC as well and does not force a Jump, allowing it to Jump in to Assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
This argument again.

OP, this boils down to two camps.

Pro DS: It moves like a Jump MC when it Glides or Swoops (with additional rules when it Swoops), as they are the only choices available, it must have DS. Pro side is 'always moves like Jump, therefore must have DS.'

Con DS: You select the Glide or Swoop mode when you (a) deploy him on the table, where he must be gliding, therefore too late to glide, (b) he arrives from reserves. At this point, you are yet to make the selection for Glide or Swoop, so don't have access to DS. When he arrives, you can say Swoop or Glide and gain DS, but you can't suddenly put him in DS reserves, as he didn't start the game there. Con side is basically a timing issue.

Pretty much boils it down.

Also for Con, you don't move in Reserves, so are not using either Mode and so don't have access to DS.

 Frozocrone wrote:
This argument is a rules interpretation. I play it as, you need the DS rule in your profile to actually DS (hence why I allow Daemon Princes to DS). But you'll need to decide in your gaming group how you're going to play it.

So you don't allow Drop Pods to work? I'm only saying this to point out a possible way around requiring the DS rule to actually Deep Strike.

Charistoph wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Sure I can. First sentence under Flying Monstrous Creatures on page 68. "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules". A FMC who is not moving is not using any of the additional rules of Swooping or Gliding, and so is a Monstrous Creature by default. Now can you provide a quote that says you may use the Swooping or Gliding rules when your FMC hasn't moved?

Nope, you missed it:

Spoiler:

FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.

Flying Monstrous Creatures are offered the choice but are not required to use either one, but if they move, they must use either one. Technically speaking, the Gliding option allows for walking like a regular MC as well and does not force a Jump, allowing it to Jump in to Assault.

You missed my entire question. They must use either one WHEN THEY MOVE, that's correct. But what are they when they DON'T MOVE? They can't be Gliding or Swooping, because they only have access to those rules once they begin their move. The rules state they are Monstrous Creatures that have access to Gliding or Swooping rules when they move. So when they don't move, they're just regular Monstrous Creatures with Jink.

But yeah, Frozocrone boiled it down pretty much perfectly. As I stated earlier, there's a very strong RAI argument that they SHOULD be able to deep strike, and that's how I play it. I'm just arguing the RAW.

I am confused . . . are FMC "described as moving like a jump unit" or not?