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2016/01/06 07:26:04
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Where ?
Here is where the FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This has already been stated several times in this thread.
see my rules doesn't say that. I'm missing (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump unit ((end sentence ) end pargraph))
All i got is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature. " , Thery are not the same thing
The rules disagree with you. Jump Monstrous Creatures are considered Jump units and Monstrous Creatures. Please follow the rules.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
2016/01/06 07:31:13
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
The FMC unit type is described as moving like a Jump unit. So it has Deep Strike.
Where ?
Here is where the FMC unit type is described . . .
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
This has already been stated several times in this thread.
see my rules doesn't say that. I'm missing (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump unit ((end sentence ) end pargraph))
All i got is "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature. " , Thery are not the same thing
The rules disagree with you. Jump Monstrous Creatures are considered Jump units and Monstrous Creatures. Please follow the rules.
Spoiler:
Unlike most other unit type
categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it
occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous
Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Way to deflect , now point to the rules that say (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump ((end sentence ) end pargraph)) in the FMC rules
( Hint: It doesn't exists )
2016/01/06 07:38:56
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Way to deflect , now point to the rules that say (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump ((end sentence ) end pargraph)) in the FMC rules
( Hint: It doesn't exists )
Only you seem to be having problems here. The FMC unit type description obviously describes the FMC as moving like a Jump unit (ie. a Jump Monstrous Creature).
Please refrain from posting until you have something substantial to contribute, as per the Forum rules.
2016/01/06 08:02:04
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
At a glance this argument seems to me to be like Preferred Enemy etc. Interacting with 'Blast Weapons and Re-rolls' with the difference being that this rule does not explicitly require a potential condition (in the way BW&R requires an ability that may or may not be engaged)
2016/01/06 08:08:55
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
The whole question is, what mode (if any) is a FMC in while in reserves. And/or when they are arriving from deep strike do they "enter play" before they touch the table. Because you choose flight mode when the model enters play.
if the controlling player can choose, then being in glide mode grants it deep strike, the moment it hits the table from deep strike it counts as swooping.
If it is in no mode (no reason to think this and no precedent for it) it is just a FMC with the basic FMC rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 08:13:54
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 15:25:51
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Charistoph wrote: I see it only being described twice and dependent on one of two conditions in this unit type, neither of which are available during deployment until after it is to late for the model to be placed in to Deep Strike Reserves. If it was in a general location of the unit type's rules, as I've mentioned earlier, and not dependent on a state, you would be correct.
However, in order for a FMC to be described as moving as a JMC, it must either be Gliding or Swooping. Neither state can be declared before the model is deployed, and only as it is deployed.
Incorrect. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Since Gliding and/or Swooping are on the description of the FMC unit type, we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument.
Actually quite correct. Gliding and Swooping are conditional statuses of the Unit Type in question and are not in play at all times. You are making the assumption that if it can move like a Jump unit at any time, it has the Jump rules all the time. You have not proven this to be the case, nor have you proven that an FMC operates under the Gliding or Swooping status before being deployed, nor have you proven that the FMC's being described as moving like a Jump unit at any point outside Gliding or Swooping.
If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument.
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement. If you cannot adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself you cannot claim to have a RAW argument. I will adhere to the language and logic in the rule itself. And so far I can claim an uncontested RAW argument
Can you provide any other such case as when a unit moves as a Jump unit during only a specific phase or after a specific point that everyone agrees has the Jump rules all the time?
I've said it numerous times up to this point, but since you cannot actually address my statements nor even properly judge hypotheticals, here is what I've been saying:
Lance845 wrote:The whole question is, what mode (if any) is a FMC in while in reserves. And/or when they are arriving from deep strike do they "enter play" before they touch the table. Because you choose flight mode when the model enters play.
if the controlling player can choose, then being in glide mode grants it deep strike, the moment it hits the table from deep strike it counts as swooping.
If it is in no mode (no reason to think this and no precedent for it) it is just a FMC with the basic FMC rules.
You have not properly addressed this question, col_impact. So, either address it properly, or concede until you can.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/06 17:40:14
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Way to deflect , now point to the rules that say (start paragraph ( start sentence ) ) FMC Move like jump ((end sentence ) end pargraph)) in the FMC rules
( Hint: It doesn't exists )
The rules have been cited frequently, you just choose to ignore them.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
FMCs are described as moving like Jump, therefore gain all the rules of such. Nothing more is required to meet the rule.
2016/01/06 18:22:01
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 20:14:36
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Now review that statement, is when it Deep Strikes when it is put in Reserves?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/01/06 20:26:49
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Charistoph wrote: Actually quite correct. Gliding and Swooping are conditional statuses of the Unit Type in question and are not in play at all times. You are making the assumption that if it can move like a Jump unit at any time, it has the Jump rules all the time. You have not proven this to be the case, nor have you proven that an FMC operates under the Gliding or Swooping status before being deployed, nor have you proven that the FMC's being described as moving like a Jump unit at any point outside Gliding or Swooping.
Incorrect. Gliding and Swooping are rules that are always on the unit type description for FMC. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a jump unit which we can plainly verify by looking at the unit type description. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping. You are ignoring the language and logic of the rule itself to keep insisting that the rule cares if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping.
Here are two logically different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
2016/01/06 20:35:11
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Yup. Swooping makes you jump which gives you deepstrike. All fmcs can deepstrike.
And when does the FMC Swoop?
The FMC is considered swooping when it arrives from deepstrike. A FMC is either swooping or gliding. Controlling players choice, before it moves. Both make it a jump mc
Now review that statement, is when it Deep Strikes when it is put in Reserves?
When is the mc "in play"? When it touches the table or as it leaves reserves? The player chooses its flight mode "before it moves". Does it have no flight mode while in reserves? A FMC enters play swooping. If it is swooping AS it enters play then it has the deepstrike rule AS it enters play and can be placed on the table via deepstrike.
Charistoph wrote: Actually quite correct. Gliding and Swooping are conditional statuses of the Unit Type in question and are not in play at all times. You are making the assumption that if it can move like a Jump unit at any time, it has the Jump rules all the time. You have not proven this to be the case, nor have you proven that an FMC operates under the Gliding or Swooping status before being deployed, nor have you proven that the FMC's being described as moving like a Jump unit at any point outside Gliding or Swooping.
Incorrect. Gliding and Swooping are rules that are always on the unit type description for FMC. The rule only cares that the FMC is described as moving like a jump unit which we can plainly verify by looking at the unit type description. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping. You are ignoring the language and logic of the rule itself to keep insisting that the rule cares if the FMC is currently gliding or swooping.
Here are two logically different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 20:46:57
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 20:41:00
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement.
Your case example is all full of fail.
First, "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." is not a quote that appears anywhere in the Blood Angels codex.
Secondly, psychic blessings do not modify the description of units until they are manifested. You will need to show how the Librarian can manifest Wings of Sanguinius in reserves. The rules don't allow it so the blessing simply isn't modifying any description when it would need to be. This is different of course to the case of Swoop or Glide which are always on the FMC unit type description.
Thirdly, the text of Wings of Sanguinius make no mention of jump.
Spoiler:
6. Wings of Sanguinius…Warp Charge 2
Blood-red wings of psychic energy spring from the back of the Librarian or his allies,
allowing them to soar across the battlefield like avenging angels.
Wings of Sanguinius is a blessing that targets a single friendly Infantry unit within 12".
Unless locked in close combat, the target immediately makes a move of up to 12". This move
cannot end on top of another unit or impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units,
terrain, etc. Any model that starts or ends this move in difficult terrain must take a
Dangerous Terrain test. The target unit cannot charge in the same turn that this power is
used, and all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the
purposes of shooting weapons in the Shooting phase.
So yeah your case example is all full of fail.
So again, please find a real case example this time Charistophe.
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently Swooping or Gliding only that it is described as moving like a Jump unit in its unit type description. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
You are not allowed to ignore the use of 'described as' in the rule.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 20:46:56
2016/01/06 20:52:02
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Here's another scenario that has a little more recent relevance: A Blood Angels Librarian Power "Wings of Sanguinius" "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." This was accessible by the Librarian Dreadnought.
Would a Blood Angel Psyker, Dreadnought or Infantry, be able to Deep Strike while possessing such a Power, even without purchasing a Drop Pod, Jump Pack, or TDA?
Nope. In your example "'move like' jump unit" would not appear on any unit type or ALE description and so the unit would not be described as moving like a Jump unit.
So it looks like you continue to fail to find any real examples. You might as well concede at this point.
And what does a Jump Pack do? It makes the unit a Jump unit. So, if it "moves as if he had a Jump Pack", then it translates as "moves as if he was a Jump Unit", thus fulfilling your definition requirement.
Your case example is all full of fail.
First, "allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack." is not a quote that appears anywhere in the Blood Angels codex.
Secondly, psychic blessings do not modify the description of units until they are manifested. You will need to show how the Librarian can manifest Wings of Sanguinius in reserves. The rules don't allow it so the blessing simply isn't modifying any description when it would need to be. This is different of course to the case of Swoop or Glide which are always on the FMC unit type description.
Thirdly, the text of Wings of Sanguinius make no mention of jump.
Spoiler:
6. Wings of Sanguinius…Warp Charge 2
Blood-red wings of psychic energy spring from the back of the Librarian or his allies,
allowing them to soar across the battlefield like avenging angels.
Wings of Sanguinius is a blessing that targets a single friendly Infantry unit within 12".
Unless locked in close combat, the target immediately makes a move of up to 12". This move
cannot end on top of another unit or impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units,
terrain, etc. Any model that starts or ends this move in difficult terrain must take a
Dangerous Terrain test. The target unit cannot charge in the same turn that this power is
used, and all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the
purposes of shooting weapons in the Shooting phase.
So yeah your case example is all full of fail.
So again, please find a real case example this time Charistophe.
This is wrong. Swooping and gliding are conditional states. The question is when does the FMC gain the conditional state, after leaving reserves, before it touches the table or after it touches the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not care if the FMC is currently Swooping or Gliding only that it is described as moving like a Jump unit in its unit type description. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Spoiler:
Units that
are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use
the same special rules.
You are not allowed to ignore the use of 'described as' in the rule.
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 21:00:03
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
The rule doesn't care. The logic of the rule is expressed with 'described as' which you keep ignoring. Swoop and Glide are on the unit type description for FMC so we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It's really simple. All you need to do is take a look at the unit type description for FMC to confirm that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:01:10
2016/01/06 21:00:32
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Actually I just reread the deep strike rule. In order to deep strike the model must start in reserve and you must tell your opponent they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins.
So, do FMC have a flight mode while in reserves? Yes, they can deepstrike. No, they cannot. That's the deciding factor.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 21:02:51
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Actually I just reread the deep strike rule. In order to deep strike the model must start in reserve and you must tell your opponent they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins.
So, do FMC have a flight mode while in reserves? Yes, they can deepstrike. No, they cannot. That's the deciding factor.
Incorrect. The rule only cares if the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. Take a look at the unit type description for the FMC. On there you will see that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore it has Deep Strike.
2016/01/06 21:04:21
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
The rule doesn't care. The logic of the rule is expressed with 'described as' which you keep ignoring. Swoop and Glide are on the unit type description for FMC so we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It's really simple.
No. It doesn't say that. It says a FMC that is swooping/gliding. Not a FMC. It's subject, adverb, rule permissions. The FMC must have the conditional state to gain the rule permissions. A FMC who is neither swooping nor gliding moves like a mc. In reserves does it get to declare a flight mode?
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 21:04:43
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Thread needs locking. I posted both stances on the first page and since then there has been no substantial developments to arguments. Instead, it has basically been a thread on who can shout louder.
YMDC = nightmare
2016/01/06 21:07:26
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
First, I AGREE that they can deepstrike. But swooping and gliding ARE conditional states, not rules of the model. Read flight modes and changing flight modes. You select the conditional state and THEN the conditional state effects movement rules. Without the conditional state the FMC is a MC with jink and vector strike.
The rule doesn't care. The logic of the rule is expressed with 'described as' which you keep ignoring. Swoop and Glide are on the unit type description for FMC so we can unequivocally assert that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit. It's really simple.
No. It doesn't say that. It says a FMC that is swooping/gliding. Not a FMC. It's subject, adverb, rule permissions. The FMC must have the conditional state to gain the rule permissions. A FMC who is neither swooping nor gliding moves like a mc. In reserves does it get to declare a flight mode?
You keep failing to deal with the language and logic of 'described as'. Until you actually deal with the language the rule uses your argument is invalid.
These are two logically very different rules . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Rule A asks me to check the unit type description to see if the unit is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Rule B asks me to check if the unit is in the process of moving like a Jump unit.
Which of these rules is in the actual rule book?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:10:36
2016/01/06 21:10:45
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: The word your missing is "if". As in "IF" a FMC is gliding, it moves etc etc... "IF" a FMC is swooping etc etc...
If makes the flight mode conditional. The FMC is not moving like jump infantry until it is in one of the flight modes.
Again you fail to deal with the language the rule uses which is "described as". You are seeing that the rule contains that phrase, right?
The rule does not care if the FMC is currently moving like a Jump unit only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Swoop and Glide are always on the unit type description of the FMC. We can unequivocally assert that the FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. Therefore the FMC has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:16:03
2016/01/06 21:18:03
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 21:23:18
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
Incorrect. The rule does not care what current state the FMC is in, only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
We check the unit type description and see quite clearly that it is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. That is RAW.
2016/01/06 21:23:40
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Lance845 wrote: And actually it says very specifically, when a FMC is deployed it is gliding. Pg 135, reserves, when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units.
Pg 68, deployment, if a FMC is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding.
A FMC held in reserves at the beginning of the game is not deployed, there fore not gliding.
It does not gain a flight mode until it leaves reserves, at which point it gains the deepstrike rule. However, the deepstrike rule requires you to declare they will be arriving via deepstrike before the game begins, when the FMC is not in any flight mode and does not have the rule.
FMC cannot deepstrike. My mind is changed. Raw.
Incorrect. The rule does not care what current state the FMC is in, only that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
We check the unit type description and see quite clearly that it is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit. That is RAW.
A FMC is not described as moving like anything until it is in a flight mode. FMC do not move like jump infantry. A FMC who is gliding does. A FMC who is swooping does. A FMC who is not gliding or swooping is a mc with vector strike and jink.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:27:27
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 21:27:28
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Not relevant to this discussion. The words in the BRB that comprise the unit type description for the FMC are always the same. It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
2016/01/06 21:31:22
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
A FMC is not described as moving like anything until it is in a flight mode. FMC do not move like jump infantry. A FMC who is gliding does. A FMC who is swooping does. A FMC who is not gliding or swooping is a mc with vector strike and jink.
This seems to be what everyone is ignoring. FMCare described as jump units when in swooping or gliding mode, but you're not allowed to choose either before deployment occurs, so it's kind of in a void.
It seems as if RAI lets them DS, but RAW doesn't really give them permission to do so, unless you take the fact that they can only ever move as jump units to mean that they are "described as", even though you're strictly speaking not permitted to enter that state before deep strike.
2016/01/06 21:33:21
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Not relevant to this discussion. The words in the BRB that comprise the unit type description for the FMC are always the same. It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Nope. You don't seem to understand how the word if influences the state of the permissions. I wont be arguing this point with you further. If you have other arguments I would be happy to discuss them.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2016/01/06 21:36:41
Subject: Does FMC (Tyranids) allow the model to deep strike?
Lance845 wrote: Nothing says a FMC must always have a flight mode. It says when you must declare one, how long they last, and how to change them. But at no point do the rules state a FMC always has one and at no point do the rules state that you can declare one while in reserves before the game begins.
Not relevant to this discussion. The words in the BRB that comprise the unit type description for the FMC are always the same. It is always true that the FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit.
Nope. You don't seem to understand how the word if influences the state of the permissions. I wont be arguing this point with you further. If you have other arguments I would be happy to discuss them.
That's fine.
It will be noted that you fail to distinguish between these two logically very different rule statements . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Since you fail to adhere to the actual language and logic in the rule itself, your argument is invalid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/06 21:37:22
