we’re adding an awesome boss miniature - the Plague Aberration to pledges for FREE and creating a special optional mission featuring this terrifying beast that can be played as part of the main campaign. The optional mission featuring the Aberration will be available as a free digital download once Star Saga ships
I won't say no to another Aberration that's $15 to $20 worth depending on where you buy. (or $15.50 at the current exchange rate based on Mantics RRP of £12.49)
Yep he'll fit a 50mm base without issue - per the update the Aberrant is not supplied with a base. He will take up 4 squares in game. DS has rules for 2 square x 2 square Large Models and 3x3 Huge Models so SS will likely use the same rules.
No there are corridors that are a single square wide as well.
The DS movement rule for large models is
"Move the model a single square at a time - ensuring that for the entirety of the movement the whole of the model's base remains on the dungeon tiles, and on squares permitted by the normal rules for movement for single square models (page XXX)" (couldn't resist adding that last bit )
I admit I'm not well up on DS rules but to me that says large models can't access single width corridors as the whole base cannot remain on the tile and they are confined to rooms and double width corridors. It's probably not much of an issue for a boss that's likely to be in a room. It may be an issue for the Orge Merc for example if it can't negotiate single width corridors.
Well, I hope it goes on a 60mm base in game. That was the size supplied with Deadzone. I was kind of hoping that this game would mean figures could be used across the range of games without the need to own multiple copies of the same models on different sized bases.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Well, I hope it goes on a 60mm base in game. That was the size supplied with Deadzone. I was kind of hoping that this game would mean figures could be used across the range of games without the need to own multiple copies of the same models on different sized bases.
Bolognesus wrote: It'll be on at least 50mm, I can't imagine having it on a 60mm base will be a significant problem for board game use.
If it comes without a base, you can use whatever size you want. It isn't going to fit in some corridors either way.
Good intentions? The promised Co-op and mission designer rules write-ups haven't materialised yet, maybe they could actually manage to follow through on that instead of just putting us off.
we’re throwing in five hard plastic Plague Zombies, five hard plastic Plague 3rd Gens (and a Plague Hound) and five hard plastic Pathfinders (plus a D.O.G. Drone).
Nice if you don't have them yet but I've so many that this adds nothing for me personally.
This week we’ll have a more detailed look at both the Character Creator and Mission Creator to show you how they work.
However, in the meantime, we’re pleased to announce that we’re now upgrading the Mission Creator to also include a Bestiary that will have statistics for loads of the Deadzone/Warpath infantry units. Included as part of the Bestiary, we’ll also be producing stat cards for the troop types, making it much easier for the Nexus Player to look up their abilities during a game and allowing them to mix and match their forces. All this has now been added to your pledge and you haven’t had to lift a finger.
What does this mean? Well, if you’ve got a bunch of Rebs minis for your Deadzone faction, you can now create a mission that takes place inside a Rebs base and each troop type will have their own stats. Perhaps you’re a Forge Father player and want a campaign set inside a Brokkr mining facility? Go ahead…
I'm hoping the turrets end up not looking like chibi toys.. Those graphics make them look stumpy and cartoonish. I know that's a thing with Mantic but so far this project hasn't really seemed to go that direction..
MLaw wrote: I'm hoping the turrets end up not looking like chibi toys.. Those graphics make them look stumpy and cartoonish. I know that's a thing with Mantic but so far this project hasn't really seemed to go that direction..
Looks pretty much like the gun from a Forge Guard modified so it fits on a tripod with a targeter on top; the Forge Guard guns have been out for ages, and they aren't chibi.
However, our Tsudochan friend at the top of the page is now clearly a Technomage turned sour.
From the energetic value-upping Mantic's been doing, it's clear that whatever their minimum preferred ending goal is, they're concerned that they're not getting there. They tried going the higher cost route of adding brand new material to the base pledge without funding (the Nameless expansion), and they're evidently not comfortable with continuing to add more value that way, so now they're padding out the pledge with previously released material.
If you're entirely new to Mantic sci-fi, that makes this a great KS to back. You're getting the new game and a discounted, representative sampling of their new hard plastic sci-fi range.
If you're an old Mantic supporter and you could use a smattering of extra hard plastic troops, it's also a good deal.
Unfortunately for me, I'm getting diminishing returns from Star Saga's bundled redundancy. Deadzone 2 already gave me the chance to stock up on more of the Peacekeepers I got in Deadzone 1. Dreadball Xtreme already gave me the chance to put the cherry on top of my Warpath rank and file with character models from most races and a range of civilians. I'm less and less comfortable with the built-in excess of KS campaigns as it is, but when the base pledge includes this many hard plastic models that I already helped fund and bought too many of, not to mention a number of slightly reposed PVC versions of those very same models, it's too much deja vu. Considering that most KS campaigns consist entirely of brand new models, with all previously funded / released material kept out of pledge levels and confined to optional add-ons, Mantic just isn't competing effectively for my dollar. I don't need and won't use all of the models I get from a CMON campaign base pledge either, but at least every one of those models adds something to my collection that wasn't there before.
Your mileage may veer off and hit a leprechaun while he's sputtering "Begorrah," of course, and if the extra Warpath sprues and reposed PVC Warpath troopers in the base pledge work for you, good on you. You may chortle in your joy without fear of Bandersnatches. For myself, I can't even justify the increased cost of shipping those redundant models from the UK to a storage box in my basement. I already have too many miniatures that I'll never get to before I kick the bucket.
NTRabbit wrote: Looks pretty much like the gun from a Forge Guard modified so it fits on a tripod with a targeter on top; the Forge Guard guns have been out for ages, and they aren't chibi.
However, our Tsudochan friend at the top of the page is now clearly a Technomage turned sour.
I think the gun is probably fine, it's the height of the legs on the tripod that might be on the small side. Are those the Forgefather guns that are rather tall? It would make a bit more sense in that light but I guess it really doesn't matter.. I have scads of tripods from Imperial Guard etc.. plus I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to either extend that one or just make a new one :/
Included in the add-on are 10 GCPS Marines with weapon options, 10 Veer-myn Nightcrawlers with weapon options and all the acrylic counters you’ll need to play (the ones shown here are for illustration purposes only).
Talking of expanding the game, we know that a lot of you are crying out for Star Saga expansions and we’re pleased to say that the first expansion isn’t far away and once we’re through the $250,000 mark, we’ll be able to unveil the full details of our first expansion: Retake the Blackstar Station starring the Veer-myn in all their ratty glory.
However, to get you in the mood for some rat action, we’re unveiling Hacker Halftail, a Kickstarter exclusive Veer-myn mercenary (new sculpt) that will be unlocked at $255,000… so not far to go.
I'd take some of those Project Pandora Acrylic counters on their own but I've no need of another 10 GCPS or Veer Myn.
Hmmm...The Kickstarter is tempting, but we're talking about Mantic here. Dungeon Saga's rules were indeed quite easy to learn, but they're not really what I would call it "a fine long term game". And they say Star Saga's rules are greatly inspired from them.
And of course, there's this long history of Mantic not really giving us what was promised at first or having some weird...quality...for some of their products in the end. Not even talking about delays.
Maybe I should play it safe and wait for retail to see what we will be actually getting...but I'm still wondering.
I feel weird being the one who is actually excited about Mantic's latest KS. Of course, I'm really only excited to buy some of the add on minis in the pledge manager phase, so not really that helpful to the campaign, but excited nonetheless. I hope they don't time the PM to drop in the same month as plastic Sisters of Battle, though...
BrookM wrote: Same here, I'm a bit annoyed that the GCPS has been pushed back, with no word on the progress of their metal character.
I am sitting on an early bird of this one, but I doubt I'll hold onto it, Mantic is not filling me with confidence or amazing amounts of excitement.
I'm under strict orders from Mrs. Polonius to not back any more Mantic Kickstarters. Her point, which is valid, is that I'm better off buying the stuff at retail.
I think that may be the best course of action, I may cling to my early bird for another day or so to see if anything exciting happens, but chances are I'm dropping it sooner rather than later.
I also got their free novella today, hoping to learn some more about the setting and it's all so.. bland. Not to mention in some cases a very, very thinly veiled copy-pasta of other stuff.
MLaw wrote: I'm hoping the turrets end up not looking like chibi toys.. Those graphics make them look stumpy and cartoonish. I know that's a thing with Mantic but so far this project hasn't really seemed to go that direction..
Yep the gun looks good ...except for the Iron sights on the barrel. They're far from the only company to keep doing this constantly though, and they're generally easy enough to clip off.
In Beyond Eiras you’ll find 15 totally new missions featuring all the mercs, minions (lab technicians, security guards, Nameless, etc.) and bosses included with the core pledge, plus the revised Project Pandora rules.
Beyond Eiras will be a printed book with lots of great content to expand on the core Star Saga experience, and give you more scenarios to get your teeth into.
There's really not much wrong with the campaign, but it being in USD is the main thing that will limit it since Mantic relies on a large UK following.
Main pledge (shipped) is nearly £90.
Or, to put a bit more perspective on it, that was the price of a $150 pledge in previous campaigns. UK currency has tanked by around 1/3rd since then.
It'll still end up around $400k - $500k which is really great considering.
They've worked a lot harder on filling out the mini count with this one. 113 minis (once terrain is counted) this time. Having a lot of Warpath minis thrown in is great, there's entire Plague and Corporation Strike Teams for Deadzone in there.
scarletsquig wrote: There's really not much wrong with the campaign, but it being in USD is the main thing that will limit it since Mantic relies on a large UK following.
Ehm, nope. Same distribution between countries as in other campaigns... just fewer backers.
They've worked a lot harder on filling out the mini count with this one.
Respectfully disagree. They switch around the gaps between Stretch Goals and throw in additional minis proving that it does not provide value for the money collected.
Polonius wrote: Let's not overthink this: I'm just not sure how deep the marketplace is for a sci-fi dungeon crawler that's not of unusually high quality.
Not to mention it's a board game with minis that will have to be glued together which is generally distasteful to a great number of board game players. DS was partially successful because it wasn't trying to be a wargame wrapped in a boardgame. Of course, Mantic could have poisoned the well with their handling of DS so we're seeing the Mantic faithful lining up for this one but those, like myself, who are more wary will wait and see what comes out at retail (which will likely be cheaper than the KS price anyway).
Polonius wrote: Let's not overthink this: I'm just not sure how deep the marketplace is for a sci-fi dungeon crawler that's not of unusually high quality.
I know Mantic has a lot of followers who will pledge no matter what they put up (they even say so in the comments section). There's also still a lot of people out there though that are beyond exhausted from Mantic's shenanigans. If CMoN was running a sci-fi Heroquest I would be all over it. Same for FFG or maybe a few others.. I know Mantic "can" deliver but what exactly "will" they deliver.
Polonius wrote: Let's not overthink this: I'm just not sure how deep the marketplace is for a sci-fi dungeon crawler that's not of unusually high quality.
Not to mention it's a board game with minis that will have to be glued together which is generally distasteful to a great number of board game players.
Huh? From the FAQ: "The miniatures are single-piece and no assembly is required"
Polonius wrote: Let's not overthink this: I'm just not sure how deep the marketplace is for a sci-fi dungeon crawler that's not of unusually high quality.
Not to mention it's a board game with minis that will have to be glued together which is generally distasteful to a great number of board game players.
Huh? From the FAQ: "The miniatures are single-piece and no assembly is required"
Yep. Until they also included sprues of the multi-part figures from other KS projects they've run.
Polonius wrote: Let's not overthink this: I'm just not sure how deep the marketplace is for a sci-fi dungeon crawler that's not of unusually high quality.
Not to mention it's a board game with minis that will have to be glued together which is generally distasteful to a great number of board game players.
Huh? From the FAQ: "The miniatures are single-piece and no assembly is required"
Correct all of the miniatures in the core game are single piece or preassembled. Mantic have added some DZ/WP miniatures to bump "the value" these need assembly but are not necessary to play the core game.
Mmmm where are am I with updates ... they are throwing them out faster than I can update the thread.
The printed book will also included the Aberration mission/rules.
Project Pandora update unlocked - next is Hacker Halftail @$255k currently @$254k so that should go shortly.
Next 2 extra plague victims @$260k (makes sense they are on a tool with the other stuff so they are being cast anyway).
After that…
We’re near to unveiling our first expansion starring the Veer-myn. We’ll have more details as we close in on the target but this $40 expansion will have more mercs, more enemies and more missions! Not long now...
Polonius wrote: Let's not overthink this: I'm just not sure how deep the marketplace is for a sci-fi dungeon crawler that's not of unusually high quality.
I know Mantic has a lot of followers who will pledge no matter what they put up (they even say so in the comments section). There's also still a lot of people out there though that are beyond exhausted from Mantic's shenanigans. If CMoN was running a sci-fi Heroquest I would be all over it. Same for FFG or maybe a few others.. I know Mantic "can" deliver but what exactly "will" they deliver.
I think that's a noisy minority. I think people back Mantic's kickstarters for a variety of reasons, but the reality is that the games have gotten more obscure and/or more of a retread (a third dreadball KS?), the market shrinks. Also, the monty hall days of the early kickstarters are over, which unfortunately means so does the fear of missing out.
Those merc designs are really neat. Maybe they should've led with those designs as stretch goals over stuff like Project Pandora or the mercs they went with. The Forge Father merc, for instance is way less interesting than the Matsudan or Sphyr mercs.
Vermonter wrote: Unfortunately for me, I'm getting diminishing returns from Star Saga's bundled redundancy..
fwiw, Dwarven Saga and Project Pandora, the original Dungeon Saga and Star Saga, were boxed games that used existing miniatures. I think a retail release using this model wouldn't have been too bad of an idea. It would have been an introduction to Mantic miniatures, as well as a less of a financial commitment than buying a GW game or KoW army. Certainly it would cost less to produce, since it wouldn't need new molds. Boardgamers who won't assemble miniatures would pass on the game, but it's not like the Mantic needs to compete against every boardgame company in the crowded hobby genre. Like the old GW boardgames (eg. Space Crusade) the game could have been rereleased designed to incorporate Mantic miniatures their existing customer base already owned. Play with your plague zombies while you're painting up the ratmen, and all that.
Silly Mantic, still with the fake stretch goals. We all know all the mooks come on 1 tool, so there's no way this will end with anything other than exactly double the starting crew.
But does anyone know what tool the 3D turrets are on? I'm guessing with the characters, but it sure would be nice if they were with the scenery...
We are getting 2 sentry guns but I can't see them being on any other tool than the character one for the core game as Ogan is added to the core game and the sentry guns go with him.
I kinda really want to back this, but I already went all in for the Siege of the Citadel kickstarter. I just don't have the money to go in on a second game.
Still, if Mantic adds more awesome stuff to the deal, I am afraid I won't be able to resist anymore.
The Veer Myn Expansion is officially released @$275,000
Currently the expansion includes:
A pre-assembled plastic Brood Mother boss (new sculpt)
Three large pre-assembled plastic Veer-myn minions (new sculpt)
12 smaller pre-assembled plastic Veer-myn minions (a mix of new sculpts)
Themed tiles
Cards
Rulebook
And remember those 2 Corporation Rangers well they get added as well at $275k
I kinda hope they do the Asterian expansion just to get some Cyphers in the new PVC.
Not an exciting expansion for me at all given that I already own 2-3 times that amount of Veermyn in hard plastic, so why would I buy monopose extras? It's even anti-synergistic with the Pandora expansion and the Minion mega bundle from the same Kickstarter, which have hard plastic Veermyn in it.
The preassembled veermyn are going to be popular with the boardgaming crowd a fair few of who have already said the veermyn sprues are no use to them as they don't build minis
is it referencing that Monty Hall problem where you switch doors to increase your chance of winning a price? What relation does that have to this (or any) Kickstarter?
Zywus wrote: What's with the references to Monty Hall?
is it referencing that Monty Hall problem where you switch doors to increase your chance of winning a price? What relation does that have to this (or any) Kickstarter?
Monty Haul is a pejorative term for a D&D campaign in which the characters collect massive amounts of wealth, magic items, and experience. It implies that attention is being kept only because of the "goodies," not because of any inherent value.
If this campaign had come before Warpath and Deadzone 2, I think it would probably be bringing in a lot more backers and funds. Part of the problem is that a lot of people pretty much already have these figures in multipart form. It probably would be doing better if they had gone with something completely new for the bad guys. Maybe something like an alien run facility using one of their newer races. Imagine if it was, say a Rin facility. I think fighting four armed alien security would have piqued people's interests better than fighting a bunch of humans. Or maybe have your crew infiltrating a Skynet type facility, fighting all kinds of crazy robots.
Zywus wrote: What's with the references to Monty Hall?
is it referencing that Monty Hall problem where you switch doors to increase your chance of winning a price? What relation does that have to this (or any) Kickstarter?
Monty Haul is a pejorative term for a D&D campaign in which the characters collect massive amounts of wealth, magic items, and experience. It implies that attention is being kept only because of the "goodies," not because of any inherent value.
As an American based company its pretty unusual to see that for a mantic game.
The "article" reads like a fawning infomercial. One of those adverts you see in magazines designed to read like an article with advertisement written in tiny letters on the bottom of the page.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That Teraton render looks great.
lord_blackfang wrote: Not an exciting expansion for me at all given that I already own 2-3 times that amount of Veermyn in hard plastic, so why would I buy monopose extras?
As an American based company its pretty unusual to see that for a mantic game.
The "article" reads like a fawning infomercial. One of those adverts you see in magazines designed to read like an article with advertisement written in tiny letters on the bottom of the page.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That Teraton render looks great.
yeah, that was a terrible ''article''
First and last time that I ever consult this site.
I mean, I'm not expecting them to harshly criticise Mantic or the KS or anything, but it does read like an advertisement and nothing more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
.Mikes. wrote: 'Someone likes something I don't, so it must be paid for' is exceptionally hubristic.
But you don't have to listen to me, the author was on the facebook site the other day so you can go and ask him if it's true if you like.
Wear those blinders all you like, Mike. We already know your very strong biases. I don't give enough feths to chase down the author (and what would you expect to get in reply, anyway?) but you can go ask him whatever you like if you care enough to feel that you need to jump to Mantic's defence at any perceived slight. The "article" was just as bad as any fawning advertainment that you can find on BoW for any product by any company. I'll just have my own opinion and an independent mind. Ta.
Exactly. it's possible to write a positive article about a game or a company without sounding like a total fan boy or a paid off writer/marketer. Unfortunately, this seems to be above the capacity of the author, and the 'article' sound exactly like a press junket, or a promotional leaflet.
... contains more details for solo/co-operative play, details on character progression throughout the campaign and information on how to create your own characters.
Double sided tiles are unlocked. Next up Kur Keela Teraton Merc @$290k
I've yet to see an add on other than the 3D terrain that interests me I'm just sticking with the base pledge for now and waiting until the PM to decide when postage will be known. if it wasn't for Blaine being exclusive to the base pledge I would probably just A la Carte some of the miniatures.
The mat is to set up the room/corridor tiles on. The artwork on it really makes no difference. It isn't itself a playing surface like the Deadzone or Mars Attacks mats.
Some printed mats with the tiles already laid out for various missions might be good, depends on how critical concealing the map is to the game, though.
In Dungeon Saga, it's definitely better the first time through to reveal the map as you go.
There's a lot of good bundles in this, even if not looking at the base game. The $50 minion bundle is basically 6 complete Strike Teams for Deadzone.
i'll probably go all-in on this in the pledge manager with the exception of the resins, those just aren't really necessary, the new PVC material holds detail incredibly well and does not warp, resin will just cause more problems in terms of assembly/ being brittle than anything else.
I'd actually rather have minis in the new PVC used from Deadzone v2 release onwards than resin, the stuff is brilliant, changing supplier there was one of the best moves Mantic ever made.
Zywus wrote: Perhaps Blaine is just a placeholder image?
Blaine is a placeholder but it clearly says it's going to be art on one side rather than a second playing surface (and since blaine is cool and it's a pretty good bit of art I suspect they'll stick with it)
....
hmmm I wonder if they've planned a stretch goal to unlock a second playing surface for the mat, that could be it?
Is it time to throw the kitchen sink at it yet? down $302 and 2 backers for the day so far.
$300k Ronnie's Stretch Goal Bonanza
Hi everyone,
It’s Ronnie here, as we approach both the fantastic milestone of $300,000, and as we’re getting towards the end of the campaign, I thought we would kick it up a level for the last few days.
So far the campaign is going great. We’ve added a lot of fantastic content to the base pledge to ensure that it will be a tense gaming experience filled with replay value and lots of models. We’ve also introduced the first expansion: Retake the Blackstar Station.
But for $300,000 I want to do something a bit special – let’s have a stretch goal bonanza that adds even more to the base game to tease those last few people who are teetering on the edge, and expand Retake the Blackstar Station with two new mercs and an extra boss.
Let’s take a detailed look at what’s going to be unlocked at $300,000, shall we?
$300,000 Ronnie’s Stretch Goal Bonanza
This has been one of the most popular mercenaries we’ve shown so far and, of course, a medic is going to come in handy when you’re facing off against something as terrible as the Plague Aberration.
Secret Objective Cards
With this goal we want to enrich the content of the Character Creator expansion and add a new twist to the gameplay. We will build a deck of Secret Objective cards for the various races and character classes – these can be selected before each game, and will mean that the mission isn’t quite the same for everybody. The overall goal won’t change, but you never know if your comrade has ulterior motives for their actions along the way – watch your back!
New mercs for Retake the Blackstar Station
Sergeant Ugurik, Orc Commando
Because this mission takes place aboard a space station, it might get a little dangerous if you accidentally pull the air lock switch. However, Sergeant Ugurik has come prepared for deep space in his Vacuum Assault armour.
Arkoline, Crystallan Warrior
That’s right everyone, Arkoline the Crystallan is back! Despite being beaten by Orion to become a mercenary in the core pledge, we know there’s a lot of Arkoline love out there, so we’re including her as a mercenary in the expansion.
Adding an extra boss to Retake the Blackstar Station
Thorn the Progenitor
The colony to which Thorn was pupped was destroyed many years ago. Since the loss of his first family in the fires of an angry Forge Father clan, Thorn has travelled far and wide, turning his natural inventiveness to good use for several other adoptive clans. Thorn has a particular aptitude for adapting and repurposing the machines and constructions of the GCPS.
After that…?
Well, if we have a crazy run-in, it would be awesome to fund another expansion, wouldn’t it? If so, what expansion would you like to see? I’m a huge fan of the Rebs… not that I want to influence your decision, of course…and surely we should let the Nameless have a complete expansion of their own at retail shouldn’t we? Hmm, still plenty to go for there!
Enjoy the rest of the campaign!
Best wishes,
Ronnie
The 2 least interesting Mercs IMO go to the expansion so still nothing worth buying there yet but a Rebs based expansion would be nice.
I expected this too little, too late 300K corrective measure. Stretch goals to fund paid add-ons = momentum-killing rookie mistake. Huge companies like CMON don't do it. Small companies like Modiphius don't do it. Actual rookie companies with no track record like Diemension games don't do it. All three of those companies have run / are running KS campaigns that easily surpass this one. Paid add-ons are supposed to attract enough interest to 1. pay for themselves and 2. fund further stretch goals that add to the value of the core pledge. They aren't supposed to BE stretch goals. Attempting to fund another paid add-on expansion in the campaign's final hours would be laughable. There's not going to be an end rush; they'll be lucky to avoid a backslide.
What I'd do to save the ship: Make the last big stretch goal an expansion that's included in the base pledge, and make it good and original, not a rehash of Warpath renders / models that people funded and purchased in hard plastic in a previous campaign. Yep, just like the Nameless expansion that Mantic already did. That's the kind of expansion KS campaigns are supposed to fund - lots of brand-spanking new material, not warmed up leftovers. I'd say go Rebs vs. Zz'or, or something on that order of newness and interest.
Otherwise, I hope Mantic will be content to release just the core game and one expansion (Blackstar Station). (The mission and character creators aren't going to sell at retail as separate "expansions." All they'll do is make the base game look incomplete. Better to stop pretending and just include them in the core box, as should have been done from the beginning.)
Well, oddly, Mantic has always been bad at running Kickstarters. They only went out of control in the early years when we weren't spoiled yet or when Mantic did damage control by putting in huge extra value at the last moment.
Well my wife grabbed an EB and added for the expansion mega bundle. I'm still not super interested but she's into it so whatevs, I'm not gonna piss in her cereal
I did find it amusing that one of the expansions takes place underwater and will have rules for submerged rooms. Looks like Mantic has been checking out their KS competition
I don't know. I'm still grumbling about what I perceive as the Nameless fluff direction change. Have an EB, might drop, unfortunately can't see yet if any of the concept art turns out to be basilean.
Taaloc wrote: I don't know. I'm still grumbling about what I perceive as the Nameless fluff direction change. Have an EB, might drop, unfortunately can't see yet if any of the concept art turns out to be basilean.
I haven't kept up with this campaign, what's the change?
Not impressed at all so far I am afraid the only interesting miniature is the shark lady and she is just a sketch given how badly they translated the space vampire and not shown any new renders 3 weeks later I am not hopeful for this either.
I haven't been following this thread very closely. Does anyone have thoughts on gameplay? Looking at all the stuff in the base pledge, I feel like it might be worth it to combine with my Sedtion Wars tiles/terrain and Battle Systems set, but I'm not quite ready to take the plunge...
Some nice progress overnight the 48 hour email seems to have enticed a few backers in.
Ronnine's Bonanza is unlocked. Next up is 6 extra nameless minions added to the core pledge @310k which is $650 away then @$325 the expansion deal becomes available
If Sedition Wars could somehow find a second home in Space Saga, that would be pretty cool.
The value is definitely getting up there.
I thought about ditching my EB but I think I'll keep it in the end. At the very least I get a bunch of deadzone/ warpath fodder and furniture!
Strain would work as plague, with the monsters as Mercs or nameless, maybe. The Samaritans share a lot of design cues with the Enforcers, so would work as some Corp force.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That alien.... Ugh. Looks like a design too silly for Space Precinct.
Hund is another Deadzone merc being redone for this game. His existing figure is actually pretty nice looking. I think Hund is one of Mantic's few instances of the miniature coming out better than the concept art.
Okay. I backed for the base game and the expansions. It'd better be worth it, because this was my last money, so I won't be able to get the Burning of Prospero or anything else until next year.
I agree.. I feel like he came out of a 80s or 90s cartoon... This Kickstarter has been weird. They want to theme it kind of on the naughty side like The Others 7 Sins or even Deep Madness as we've seen them actively make a nod to.. yet the design and tone keeps looping back around to the 12 year old boy target audience.. The designs are all over the top and lack finer detail almost across the board. I really wish they would pick a lane :/
It should also be noted that Hund's stretch goal art on the campaign page is more in line with the actual miniature, and not that early Deadzone concept art.
I agree.. I feel like he came out of a 80s or 90s cartoon... This Kickstarter has been weird. They want to theme it kind of on the naughty side like The Others 7 Sins or even Deep Madness as we've seen them actively make a nod to.. yet the design and tone keeps looping back around to the 12 year old boy target audience.. The designs are all over the top and lack finer detail almost across the board. I really wish they would pick a lane :/
He kind of looks like he has two inflatable waving men on his shoulders.
I actually like Hund; he's a bit like a four-armed tusken raider. I do think Mantic need some sort of explanation for the bizarre morphology of his extra arms, though. I'm thinking a jungle planet origin could do it, with the extra arms useful for vine / tree / rock climbing. Otherwise it's hard to see how they make any biological sense. Maybe they're for back-scratching?
I'm with Blackfang on the Sann-gar being the silliest Warpath alien yet. Say what you like about 80's cartoon awesomeness; that model is currently being sold at FRP at an 80's cartoon awesomeness clearance price for a reason.
So this has mostly passed me by. I'm not fussed by the game or most of the figures, but I like some of the terrain bits they've got. The only pledge levels seem to include a big load of stuff for $100+. Have Mantic said if pledging a smaller amount lets you just pick add ons? I can't see it in the FAQ.
My wife messaged them to ask that question and they said you can pledge for add ons, select "no reward" and use the credit in the PM for whatever you want.
Yeah.. that's a pass from me. This is why I didn't want Mantic doing a robot "boss" .. It's big and goofy and looks like something from the toy aisle. I wish they would stick to their strengths but alas, others seem happy with it so w/e.
EDIT:
So.. I saw the "final" update.. WOW, this is their strength..
PsychoticStorm wrote: I wonder how much I will regret the decision to keep my pledge.
So they got you, too, huh?
I was really resisting this one. True, the ability to finally use all those Mantic minis I already own is very appealing, and Dungeon crawlers are much more my family's speed than skirmish or full-on tabletop wargames. But I have too many miniatures already, and Mantic really put me off by starting this with so many reposed renders from old campaigns, and then throwing in a bunch of redundant minis straight out of old campaigns. Early on, it was looking like ALL of the proposed expansions were going to be rehashes of existing mini renders: I'm pretty sure that they initially proposed doing Veer-myn, Plague, and Asterians expansions, all of which could come straight from their existing library of renders, paid for by previous kickstarters.
Why I changed my mind:
1. More new content
By the end they really turned it around with new material, particularly the Nameless. If kickstarter campaigns were a martial art, I'd call Mantic's style "Drunken Master." They usually start badly wrong-footed, with a deliberately emaciated core pledge that still looks underfed after they've squandered the initial rush by setting stretch goals too far apart. Then backing stalls out, and they're forced to shorten the distance between goals, "let Ronnie loose," etc., and suddenly they make brilliant pirouettes like bundling a genuinely new Nameless campaign into the core pledge (which could have been included from the beginning, avoiding the stall), not to mention scrapping the Warpath-model-rehash Asterian expansion for a Rebs one. We can argue about whether the Drunken Master technique is the most effective one Mantic can deploy - personally I think they could do a lot better with a stronger initial offering and less seat-of-the-pants lurching around - but what matters is the end result. And in this case, we finally ended up with plenty of new and interesting material.
2. Hats off to the new guys
This Mantic KS campaign felt more responsive to me than other recent ones, and I have to give some of the credit for that to the new guys on the scene, Matt and Rob. It also felt to me like the Mantic lore and universe were being implemented in smart and interesting ways. I wouldn't have expected to see a Matsudan Merc, or a Tsdochan that brought back the excellent heavy guard dreadball armor that went unused when Mantic Mantic made the team all jacks, or a weaponized Dreadball Robot, which I always thought were a great design for human military droids. The Nameless story arc is pretty much up in the air right now, in a good way - despite titles like "the fear" and "the terror," I wouldn't call this turn exactly Lovecraftian, but it does get me wanting to know what's pushing the Nameless from their homeworlds into human space, which is exactly the page-turning interest such game subplots should inspire. Also, I respect that Taaloc really hates the horror angle on the Nameless, but I'm delighted with it. Ending the campaign in pursuit of a "Nameless monstrosity" (which we will get, I have no doubt) was perfect for me.
Caveat: I am hoping that the answer will be more interesting than "the Plague drove them out;" even if it's Plague-related, I'd like it to present some hitherto unknown aspect of the disease. The Plague are a good villain, but I'm hoping that they won't become Warpath's answer to Chaos as the "one, true, ultimate enemy" that makes all other threats insubstantial. Sure, the Necrons and Tyranids etc. could wipe out humanity, but we all know that they won't, because it would be anti-climactic to 40k's lore. "The forces of Chaos had almost driven Mankind to its knees, when suddenly hive fleet Gertrude arrived from out of nowhere and devoured them all. The Ruinous powers were gobbled up before they could dance on humanity's ashes or laugh darkly. The end."
3. Actual, real, honest-to-goodness value in a Mantic (EB) core pledge, just like the good old days
Looking at what Dungeon Saga currently goes for on Amazon, it's hard to see how this core pledge will be cheaper to get at discount retail. (Dungeon Saga base set + Galahir will cost you $100, shipped. An EB pledge of Star Saga with the base set + Nameless expansion + Character creator (I do think this, unlike the impoverished-looking mission creator, will be sold as an actual expansion at retail) + KS exclusive figures + extra warpath minis etc shipped to the US was $105.) No, there's no future Miniature market clearance to reckon with anymore, either - it's plain that they haven't been touching any of Mantic's new sci-fi stuff. But for the heck of it, Dungeon Saga + Galahir will cost you $88.38 at Miniature market today (or would, if the base set was in stock). Even if you lowball Star Saga's Character creator expansion at $20 - and I think it will only hit that retail price under clearance conditions - you're still over the KS $105 price, and that's not even counting KS exclusive figures, extra Warpath models, etc. I think Mantic's EB core pledge on this was, in fact, the best deal that we will ever see on this material, and I've followed enough Mantic campaigns to know better than to ever say that, and I just begged Fate to kick me in the teeth by saying it anyway. It's not amazing value compared to million-dollar-grossing CMON campaigns, but I would call it a genuine value, and that feels like a return to form for Mantic.
Caveat: For the first time in a Mantic campaign, I'm sticking with the base pledge instead of the intended "sweet spot" $180-200 pledge, i.e., the EB core + the $75 expansion bundle + higher shipping, because the Blackstar expansion will be composed almost entirely of reposed renders of Warpath models that I already own. If Mantic got more creative with the Blackstar Veer-myn by giving them a different look or truly unique poses, I'd be more interested, but the similarity between images of Star Saga's PVC GCPS troopers and photos of upcoming Warpath GCPS hard plastic troopers doesn't inspire confidence.
4. The promise of better quality
Not much new to say here. As Scarlet Squig says, Mantic's Deadzone 2 PVC plastic was their best ever, and they're using it for the Star Saga figures. If they stick with this plastic, then Star Saga minis will be apples to Dungeon Saga's oranges, in a completely different league. Vac-formed plastic to hold the minis is also a welcome change.
What if they change the material? I'll just have to ask Fate to kick me in the teeth again on that one.
Theyre way down my painting list but aside from needing to dunk then all in hot water was there anything really won't with the standard dungeon saha minis?
PsychoticStorm wrote: Didn't they state early on they will use the walking dead material?
they did indeed but this is Mantic after all and another materialgate can't be ruled out
(although they have been better recently we still don't know what some of the warzone minis are going to be, for example the plague mules, the normal and plague were meant to be pvc, but then the normal one went to hard plastic and they were swithering over staying with pvc or switching to resin or even metal add ons to the normal hard plastic one for the plague version
Yes, their unreliability is the number one reason to be afraid of their KS, I will be massively disappointed if they manage to fumble the medic.
I believe this one will be a make or break for them, it had a moderate following, a bit negative feedback following their trail of fumbles and if they do not deliver this at least in a decent form, their company will take a huge reputation hit.
I really wish Matics unofficial moto here "almost" was not so true.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Yes, their unreliability is the number one reason to be afraid of their KS, I will be massively disappointed if they manage to fumble the medic.
I believe this one will be a make or break for them, it had a moderate following, a bit negative feedback following their trail of fumbles and if they do not deliver this at least in a decent form, their company will take a huge reputation hit.
I really wish Matics unofficial moto here "almost" was not so true.
Don't forget they brought on all the new people too, to fix issues. If this KS goes south then it really shows there's no hope for Mantic.
I stuck with the core pledge for just about the same reasons Vermonter already stated. Plus extra scenery, because the stuff that came with Dungeon Saga was great.
I'm not adverse to adding the expansions either, especially if the sculpts differ enough from the other Mantic minis that they're already based on.
If we get some fun poses that couldn't necessarily be obtained with the hard plastic Veermyn (or any of the pre-existing figures) outside of drastic conversions, I'll happily pick up the expansions.
If the poses differ enough they'd probably look just as good getting tossed in the Deadzone/ Warpath mix of figures as well then.
Hell, maybe for once they'll keep us in the loop in regards to how all the renders and sculpts go.
Looking at the Battlesystems campaign, I wonder if we'll get stats for the Tiger Corp from Mars Attacks? Those were some nice figures.
My opinion of Mantic hasn't changed.
This campaign added stuff and "great gifts from Ronnie" just like Dungeon Saga did. Too much swag and too many promises to keep while still maintaining profitability so I expect another KS with broken promises and changes in content by the end.
I hope that's not the case for those of you who chose to gamble on it. I do hope Mantic does make good on their promises for a change. I agree with PsychoticStorm in that this might be the "make it or break it" campaign for them. It certainly didn't do the $1M that Dungeon Saga did. For me, actions speak louder than words and we'll see how they conduct themselves this time around.
That being said, I did pledge $1 to see where this goes and so I can add things (like that cool scenery) during the PM. If they showcase more developed game play and production models before it closes I might be tempted to pledge for the game, too. For me, though, the background and the model sketches weren't compelling enough so I'd need to see something special that just wasn't there during the campaign. Just my opinion, of course.
Theophony wrote: Don't forget they brought on all the new people too, to fix issues. If this KS goes south then it really shows there's no hope for Mantic.
The problem, though, is that these people are in customer fulfillment. Mantic's KS aren't going to be fixed until they stop creating problems that need to be fixed! (If they've hired some higher-ups, do let me know.)
IMO, Dungeon Saga was Mantic's "make or break", particularly because it was Mantic's debut game for the boardgame community. A revision of an existing game, the original designer on the project, generic fantasy, What Could Go Wrong, right?
KS certainly did. KS's problem is that the creator doesn't know the end amount of funding, so, possibly, they ran out of game content before the funding period ended. Maybe they should have done more research on BGG for what boardgamers were looking for in a dungeon crawl (eg. AI and character advancement) and design these features before the KS. Also, comparing themselves to their past KS and CMON, they could have come up with a rough idea at how much the KS would fund (eg. SG's up to 2M).
The Walking Dead: All Out War wave 1 shipments have started to go out today so that should give an indication as to how good the new material mix is which sounds like the same one Star Saga will be using.
Aeneades wrote: The Walking Dead: All Out War wave 1 shipments have started to go out today so that should give an indication as to how good the new material mix is which sounds like the same one Star Saga will be using.
They did confirm it was the same material as the TWD, fingers crossed for good quality.
(Poor Warpath, over a year and still nothing while TWD ships first. )
Aeneades wrote: The Walking Dead: All Out War wave 1 shipments have started to go out today so that should give an indication as to how good the new material mix is which sounds like the same one Star Saga will be using.
They did confirm it was the same material as the TWD, fingers crossed for good quality.
(Poor Warpath, over a year and still nothing while TWD ships first. )
I will try to get some good photos if my copy turns up this week.
Well, there was a bit of other news today. If you had been wondering where designer Jake Thornton had disappeared to, there was an announcement on his blog today at www.quirkworthy.com
The gist of it is that he and Mantic are having an unspecified dispute that has dragged on for some some time without being resolved. While not offering any details, Jake said he won't be doing any work for Mantic unless/until this is resolved.
Some of you more vicious people out there may consider this good news, considering the number of half baked games he has released for Mantic. Anyway, if you were wondering where he was for Dreadball 2 or Star Saga, there's your answer.
I am wondering if the dispute is exactly because of the state his games were.
From a comment on his blog he indirectly accuses Mantic as pushing his designs out without enouph time for proper play testing and directly looks down upon the rules committee.
The Adventurers Companion drained all my faith in the guy. That wasn't just a case of it being rushed out too soon. I was following his development blog - he honestly had no interest in anything Warhammer Quest/Advanced Heroquest like, and didn't seem to understand why anyone would want such a thing. It's not that the Designing Dungeons section was rushed, it's that it was written as a developers article instead of rules and guidelines for use by Overlord players.
I won't go so far as saying it's good he's caught up in a dispute, but I can't say I'm unhappy to see him uninvolved in future rules development for Mantic after the AC.
Wouldn't you also be pointing the finger at Ronnie, or whoever hired Jake? Jake was the designer behind the original Dwarven Saga, but, instead of Jake, someone who was interested in developing it further should have been the designer instead. Of course, this would assume that Jake told Ronnie that he wasn't interested in the AC, which I would guess he did if he was willing to say something like that in public. My speculation is that Ronnie, or whoever was running the Dungeon Saga KS, was agreeing to the demand from backers for a coop game and AC rules, and putting Jake in an awkward position.
ced1106 wrote: Wouldn't you also be pointing the finger at Ronnie, or whoever hired Jake? Jake was the designer behind the original Dwarven Saga, but, instead of Jake, someone who was interested in developing it further should have been the designer instead. Of course, this would assume that Jake told Ronnie that he wasn't interested in the AC, which I would guess he did if he was willing to say something like that in public. My speculation is that Ronnie, or whoever was running the Dungeon Saga KS, was agreeing to the demand from backers for a coop game and AC rules, and putting Jake in an awkward position.
Ronnie bears responsibility for letting that book release in the state it did, but the development blog articles I read and online conversations I had with Jake were from well into the writing process, after he'd been given the project proposals. The man just did not understand the idea or concepts behind why people loved the Warhammer Quest roleplay book, and the results are plain to see in what may be the worst wargaming supplement I own. The core game of Dungeon Saga is actually really good, but it's Jake's Heroquest clone on rails and a timer. I backed for the promises of the Adventurers Companion content which Jake did not deliver on. There's plenty of blame to go around on this, but the fact remains that Jake did a terrible job writing the Adventurer's Companion and that's going to color my perceptions of his Quirkworthy brand going forwards.
I'd imagine it's like many freelance positions with free-floating demands,
you talk to a prospective employer, they say (roughly) what they want, how long you have to deliver it and occasionally whether they might want extra time,
negotiations end, you get the job and block out that bit of your schedule, then carry on looking for work elsewhere
but suddenly your employer decides they want different stuff, that preliminary work now isn't sufficient so time gets eaten doing more prep,
the customer also wants you do more work too but you've already committed your tome to somebody else (or to something totally different from the same client) so you start having to juggle multiple jobs
result the stuff delivered isn't quite the best work you could have done if you'd stuck to the original plan, it might be later than desired etc. you may well have put in extra hours you think should be covered by the client, the client may disagree
the clients fault for wanting more/different/extra
the contractors fault for agreeing to make changes to the original plan, not saying the client must accept later delivery if they do want changes
and both of them for not having an original contract that clearly sets out who pays for what when all of the above happens
you talk to a prospective employer, they say (roughly) what they want, how long you have to deliver it and occasionally whether they might want extra time,
negotiations end, you get the job and block out that bit of your schedule, then carry on looking for work elsewhere
but suddenly your employer decides they want different stuff, that preliminary work now isn't sufficient so time gets eaten doing more prep,
the customer also wants you do more work too but you've already committed your tome to somebody else (or to something totally different from the same client) so you start having to juggle multiple jobs
result the stuff delivered isn't quite the best work you could have done if you'd stuck to the original plan, it might be later than desired etc. you may well have put in extra hours you think should be covered by the client, the client may disagree
the clients fault for wanting more/different/extra
the contractors fault for agreeing to make changes to the original plan, not saying the client must accept later delivery if they do want changes
and both of them for not having an original contract that clearly sets out who pays for what when all of the above happens
This
I've done contracting and freelance work and had the exact situation above happen to me or the company I was subcontracting under numerous times. As a freelance artist I even lost work because I didn't want to let them run with my unfinished art. It wasn't even an argument or anything, I was just like "hey, I'm going to have the final thing done tonight or tomorrow if you want to wait". They paid for that and poof.. that was it.. It was even worse doing 3d stuff for training courses since the parent company low-balled the estimates to begin with (sound familiar Mantic?).
However, this is also part of the thing I don't like about the idea of Mantic using an unpaid Rules Council. I have been on the other side of this where the organization I was with pulled the rug out from under the contractor and gave me the unfinished/partially finished product to finish. They did the bulk of the work and then I was just finishing it off, taking weeks or potentially months of pay from the other guys.. and I was salaried so it was just sandwiched into my other duties.
In Mantic's respect, they're taking a 70% product and handing it off to the equivalent of unpaid interns to finish up a product they're making hundreds of thousands of dollars off of.
I didn't buy into Dungeon Saga and in hindsight, I'm rather glad. I did back Star Saga but I did so fully telling myself that going in, if it didn't make sense to pay the money for the miniatures, then walk away because I have zero faith in Star Saga being fun and only a little bit of faith in it actually being playable.
My experience with Jake work, including some exchanges in comments on his blog about Deadzone and Dreadball, is that while his core systems are rather goods, he tend to see campaign/XP systems as less important.
It's of course possible that it ws the result of him being pressed by close releases dates, but both Dreadball and Deadzone initial campaign systems, despite some very good general ideas, suffered from problem like heavy attrition that he didn't seems to think as important.
This remind me of the video game Elemental : War of magic by Stardock, when the company president and project manager explained how the game assets (3D engine, textures, musics, etc ...) where 80% of the game developpement efforts, it was now completly false, but it completly ignored the fact that game designing is not simply writing some game system, it also need a lots of iterations to get right, and my point of view is that at the time Stardock clearly underevaluated the importance of this step. It's easy to evaluate the time needed to get a nice 3D model, it's must harder to evaluate the time needed to get a good combat system, some game designers still don't get it right after several *years* of work.
In other words, my opinion is that Jake probably evaluated correctly the efforts needed for core rules of his games, but considered the campaign/XP systems as simple add on not worth the same efforts.
Once again, it's fairly possible that he simply didn't get the time needed to design and test them, but this also remind me of the situation with Kings of War and Allessio, where he had to be overridden by Mantic in favor of the RC for some changes (for both 2nd edition and more recently the historical KoW), and I think that we gained in the endfrom Mantic desision of siding with the RC.
It's after all very easy for a game designer to be so involved in his own game that he can miss some very obvious things, especially when balancing and fine tuning the system.
It's usually a good idea to not overbloat your core system with special rules and other exceptions, but sometimes it's still better to add one simple exception than to let a good core system be dragged down by some specific abuse or other problem.
If the core problem with Jake is that he was in conflict with the RC because of some sacred cow that he refused to see killed or something similar, then it's maybe better in the end for us that he separated from Mantic, letting his core system able to be improved bvy the RC, hopefully with them learning what to fix from the experience of the first games (Dungeon Saga/Dreadball 1 in this case) whil still keeping the good parts that Jake developped.
If however the problem is more along the lines of Mantic not giving him or the RC the time and ressources needed then it's a different matter of course.
Without knowing the details, my experience as an end-consumer is much the same as others above - Jake (and Alessio) having good core rules, but flawed "expansion" aspects to them that have had to be fixed up by the RC.
Obviously that's a case of shared blame - not just Mantic/Ronnie - and we know this as we've heard from multiple sources where the contractor (especially Jake) wants to do "their thing" rather entirely fulfil what the client (Mantic) are after in entirety. I don't know. Jake comes across like a bit of a special snowflake in his personal writing sometimes while I don't appear to see the same attitude from many other designers who do work for hire - consider the guys who seem to just get gak done (Richard Borg, etc).
Mantic's issue seems to be more rushing too many projects out the door too fast and letting so many products out that clearly aren't up to snuff - not just rules but especially displayed in a lot of the miniatures they've released, right up to those Elf Chariots or the "mouldline" flyer. I've been saying it for years - they need a proper Art director on payroll and clearly then need a proper editor on payroll - and they need to not accept any old fething thing from their work-for-hire contractors, and Jake is very much one of those. If this is the start of Ronnie/Manic (Matt?) making a stand against the bs level of "good enough - ship it out!" that Mantic has had up to this point, then fething good on them.
As stated above my MLaw, the contractors probably aren't entirely on board with the idea of unpaid volunteers ("generous payment" being made in models notwithstanding) "taking food from their mouths", but then again - if you're pushing out rules that are half-arsed, then it's on you if the client decides to get others - paid or volunteers - to "fix" them rather than paying you additional funds to do so. And I'll reiterate once again that the RC should be paid in money and that they've improved KoW no end and trust them more than Mantic or Jake or Alessio to balance whatever they're given. On that though, Mantic needs to give them enough of a beta timetable to get gak balanced properly. While I applaud both the RC and all those who gave feedback for things like Uncharted Empires, the playtest period was a fething joke, and the process felt horribly rushed. Resulting in a good rule supplement (and far better than it started as - remember Alessio's "roll for everything" WTF chaos/abyssal list? - but not one that quite lives up to its potential, as it still feels like it needs "house-rule" tweaking in many cases.
I never bothered to play KoW's "Pamphlet editions", but I played a decent amount of the first KS hardcover, and it was a damned solid game. The newer edition is a great polish and tweak. Jake's stuff seems to consistently have been much sloppier, and frankly the Adventurer's Companion debacle played a very large part in putting me off backing anything from Mantic ever again. Not the only thing, but a significant factor. I've not been the only person to voice this, and not just in Mantic threads here where some people might claim "Echo-chamber" as I've seen similar comments browsing other forums where I lurk but do not post, and in the KS comments. So it's pretty firm that Jake's attitude to doing what he wants and not what the client wants (remember Ronnie's grand promises for the AC?) has harmed Mantic's reputation in general to the point where people like myself will no longer purchase/back their products. I skipped the last 150 iterations of SpaceBloodBowl as well - long before the real thing was confirmed as returning.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Had a quick look at Quirkworthy. Clearly Mantic needs to put The RC onto Dungeon Saga as well. However, Mantic don't have a good track record with the post-support of flawed products, either. Jake clearly isn't too concerned, anyway as he states that he hadn't played DS in any form since well before it was released...
jtrowell wrote: Once again, it's fairly possible that he simply didn't get the time needed to design and test them, but this also remind me of the situation with Kings of War and Allessio, where he had to be overridden by Mantic in favor of the RC for some changes (for both 2nd edition and more recently the historical KoW), and I think that we gained in the endfrom Mantic desision of siding with the RC.
It's after all very easy for a game designer to be so involved in his own game that he can miss some very obvious things, especially when balancing and fine tuning the system.
KoW Historical was almost entirely done by the RC, we didn't like the original and Mantic let us take a shot at it.
The (general) problem with freelance designers in this instance is they aren't involved enough in their games to have good visibility of the issues as they evolve and are discussed over the years from release through to edition revision.
jtrowell wrote: Once again, it's fairly possible that he simply didn't get the time needed to design and test them, but this also remind me of the situation with Kings of War and Allessio, where he had to be overridden by Mantic in favor of the RC for some changes (for both 2nd edition and more recently the historical KoW), and I think that we gained in the endfrom Mantic desision of siding with the RC.
It's after all very easy for a game designer to be so involved in his own game that he can miss some very obvious things, especially when balancing and fine tuning the system.
KoW Historical was almost entirely done by the RC, we didn't like the original and Mantic let us take a shot at it.
The (general) problem with freelance designers in this instance is they aren't involved enough in their games to have good visibility of the issues as they evolve and are discussed over the years from release through to edition revision.
Doesn't this really say more about Mantic than any freelancers though? It's almost (to me) like they view their products as throwaway to the point that they don't want someone on staff maintaining the consistency or evaluating the products in a way that would promote future changes or perhaps more importantly from a competitive standpoint being able to view the various products' meta scenes to maintain some sort of balance. Even Wizkids understands this.. Yes, there is the RC.. but again.. I would hope Mantic would actually have someone on payroll that they can plan and coordinate future releases (in Mantic's case I suppose this really means Kickstarters) without a lengthy NDA and non-compete. Oh wait.. did you RC folks have to sign an NDA or a non-compete? I shouldn't make assumptions I suppose.
I'm a bit surprised KoW historical was released. I had to look it up just now. If RC are in fact that talented, Mantic should bring them on as official staff and pay them legitimate wages. What's that song about putting a ring on it? I don't think they're considering the possibility that all the RC needs to do is figure out how to work a 3d printer and some basic graphic design and/or photography (assuming they don't have these skills among themselves already) and start their own company in a similar move to how Mantic was started in the first place. If they were to throw up a .. say.. cyberpunk game on KS, I would certainly back it.
I picked up KoW Historical last night, and its a fantastic product. The historical accuracy is pretty fast and loose, but the create-an-army system is really well done and should excite Kingdoms of Men players in the fantasy system.
As regards Mantic's part in the quality of rulesets, I've long thought Ronnie needs to hire a professional turd in the punch bowl. Someone who is enough of a pragmatist and donkey-cave to say, "No, this sculpt sucks. The legs are ridiculously tiny, and the pose looks like it's trying to buck up while squatting for a dump. Go back and rework the leg proportions and give us a natural pose, because we're not paying for this." This mythical QA donkey-cave probably would have made Jake cry during the Adventurer's Companion debacle...but given the final outcome we got, that probably wouldn't have been a bad thing.
I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions, Jake worked with the RC on releasing the Deadzone v2 FAQ and was great to work with.
I honestly haven't found much wrong with Dungeon Saga at all, but then I've just played through the quest books and haven't been after any kind of D&D style campaign play.
With over 80 scenarios to play through I haven't felt the need or had the time to go into the advanced stuff. Kickstarter throws way too much at you at once! It's like 5 years worth of core game + expansions arriving on the same day.
That's probably the bulk of Mantic's game design issues there, having to work to such tight schedules that are demanded by Kickstarter. Things like KoW Historical and Nexus Psi have been written by RC members on a much more reasonable schedule hence the increase in quality. We had 3 proofreading iterations on Nexus Psi, the first of which happened 2 months before the print deadline.
Hoping for more straight-to-retail releases in future.
jtrowell wrote: Once again, it's fairly possible that he simply didn't get the time needed to design and test them, but this also remind me of the situation with Kings of War and Allessio, where he had to be overridden by Mantic in favor of the RC for some changes (for both 2nd edition and more recently the historical KoW), and I think that we gained in the endfrom Mantic desision of siding with the RC.
It's after all very easy for a game designer to be so involved in his own game that he can miss some very obvious things, especially when balancing and fine tuning the system.
KoW Historical was almost entirely done by the RC, we didn't like the original and Mantic let us take a shot at it.
The (general) problem with freelance designers in this instance is they aren't involved enough in their games to have good visibility of the issues as they evolve and are discussed over the years from release through to edition revision.
Doesn't this really say more about Mantic than any freelancers though? It's almost (to me) like they view their products as throwaway to the point that they don't want someone on staff maintaining the consistency or evaluating the products in a way that would promote future changes or perhaps more importantly from a competitive standpoint being able to view the various products' meta scenes to maintain some sort of balance. Even Wizkids understands this.. Yes, there is the RC.. but again.. I would hope Mantic would actually have someone on payroll that they can plan and coordinate future releases (in Mantic's case I suppose this really means Kickstarters) without a lengthy NDA and non-compete. Oh wait.. did you RC folks have to sign an NDA or a non-compete? I shouldn't make assumptions I suppose.
I'm a bit surprised KoW historical was released. I had to look it up just now. If RC are in fact that talented, Mantic should bring them on as official staff and pay them legitimate wages. What's that song about putting a ring on it? I don't think they're considering the possibility that all the RC needs to do is figure out how to work a 3d printer and some basic graphic design and/or photography (assuming they don't have these skills among themselves already) and start their own company in a similar move to how Mantic was started in the first place. If they were to throw up a .. say.. cyberpunk game on KS, I would certainly back it.
Probably yes. I had a long conversation with Ronnie about it recently so hopefully there will be changes in the future. KoW already has that sort of coverage set up for 2017 onwards. We have NDAs.
Psychopomp wrote:I picked up KoW Historical last night, and its a fantastic product. The historical accuracy is pretty fast and loose, but the create-an-army system is really well done and should excite Kingdoms of Men players in the fantasy system.
As regards Mantic's part in the quality of rulesets, I've long thought Ronnie needs to hire a professional turd in the punch bowl. Someone who is enough of a pragmatist and donkey-cave to say, "No, this sculpt sucks. The legs are ridiculously tiny, and the pose looks like it's trying to buck up while squatting for a dump. Go back and rework the leg proportions and give us a natural pose, because we're not paying for this." This mythical QA donkey-cave probably would have made Jake cry during the Adventurer's Companion debacle...but given the final outcome we got, that probably wouldn't have been a bad thing.
TBH the rules don't really need an [MOD EDIT - Language. - Alpharius] to oversee them, just more time to gestate (internally and publicly) before final print run - and that's not really anything to do with KS either, they just need to start writing the rules a lot further ahead of time.
scarletsquig wrote:That's probably the bulk of Mantic's game design issues there, having to work to such tight schedules that are demanded by Kickstarter. Things like KoW Historical and Nexus Psi have been written by RC members on a much more reasonable schedule hence the increase in quality. We had 3 proofreading iterations on Nexus Psi, the first of which happened 2 months before the print deadline.
Historical is the most rushed and least reasonably scheduled piece we've done, and will likely remain in the #1 spot for.....ever. From now on it should be different though.......
scarletsquig wrote: I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions, Jake worked with the RC on releasing the Deadzone v2 FAQ and was great to work with.
I honestly haven't found much wrong with Dungeon Saga at all, but then I've just played through the quest books and haven't been after any kind of D&D style campaign play.
With over 80 scenarios to play through I haven't felt the need or had the time to go into the advanced stuff. Kickstarter throws way too much at you at once! It's like 5 years worth of core game + expansions arriving on the same day.
That's probably the bulk of Mantic's game design issues there, having to work to such tight schedules that are demanded by Kickstarter. Things like KoW Historical and Nexus Psi have been written by RC members on a much more reasonable schedule hence the increase in quality. We had 3 proofreading iterations on Nexus Psi, the first of which happened 2 months before the print deadline.
Hoping for more straight-to-retail releases in future.
This is what I've been saying too.. When they focus on individual releases instead of shotgun blast, they don't have to rush miniatures or rules. Instead they want to try to cram not only an entire rule system but also every army for that system into one arbitrary developmental cycle that's determined by a kickstarter window? WOW.. It doesn't make sense. When they were starting off.. sure.. but they really need to focus on things that drag those of us who aren't willing to dip more than a toe or an occasional kickstarter into their world. I own what is probably an entire Enforcer and Forgefather army at this point... but I have no interest in Mantic's systems or fluff to make me want to really drill down on investing in them in the way that we've seen GW or PP manage in the past. Everything just feels so half-arsed and generic at this point to me. I have been following them since they launched as a company and have been hopeful the whole time. They just haven't really answered that in a way that I feel is commiserate to the amount of patience invested at this point.
You RC folks really do need to realize that you're probably at the point that you could easily prop up a competitor, get a 3d artist or two, and get ludo to pump out a big batch of minis for your own thing. You're getting trinkets for the type of work that could be netting you 10s or even 100s of thousands of $$..
scarletsquig wrote:I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions, Jake worked with the RC on releasing the Deadzone v2 FAQ and was great to work with.
That is why he downplays your contribution so much?
If it was just a matter of taking half an hour here or there to deal with the odd question, then it would be doable. Unfortunately it would take a couple of days to get sufficiently up to speed to answer the complex queries which remain unanswered as I haven’t played the game in many, many months. In fact, not since well before it was released.
A “rules committee” will at least get you an answer, which is a start.
Especially with "an" been in italics he means any RC answer is not as valuable as the answer he would provide. For me in the posts he posted the last two days (the moment he revealed the dispute) his answers are alluding in Mantic not giving him enouph time to test his rules and that the rules committee is doing work he disapproves of.
From the discussions that have came up the last few days it also seems he can deliver a solid base work that needs a lot of development to be worthy of commercial release that he simply does not do (and then the RC does)
MLaw wrote:
You RC folks really do need to realize that you're probably at the point that you could easily prop up a competitor, get a 3d artist or two, and get ludo to pump out a big batch of minis for your own thing. You're getting trinkets for the type of work that could be netting you 10s or even 100s of thousands of $$..
Probably because that would need capital, connections and willingness to take the risk, running a business is not that simple and the unwillingness to take such a risk is something logical.
MLaw wrote: You RC folks really do need to realize that you're probably at the point that you could easily prop up a competitor, get a 3d artist or two, and get ludo to pump out a big batch of minis for your own thing. You're getting trinkets for the type of work that could be netting you 10s or even 100s of thousands of $$..
I'm not sure you appreciate how low wages are in the wargaming industry
If any of us did want to launch our own game, we'd have to pay for artists up front before launching a kickstarter, compete with any number of other wargaming kickstarters when the KS market seems to be declining and give up our day jobs... We'd also need to know how to run large shipping and logistics operations and as far as I know none of us have that experience.
Alternatively if we have a saleable idea for a game and can put a pitch together, we can go through Mantic and get them to shoulder the risk, up front costs etc.
Azazelx wrote: ...by launching a KS so the backers shoulder the risk.
Not meaning to come off as snarky to you, since I have a lot of respect for you and the RC, but that's how Mantic do things.
Giving up a well paying career, going from a stable income to running a company which may or may not succeed, putting several thousand pounds up front for concept art, sculpting etc so the KS launches with some actual content, ensuring that you correctly cost and plan everything for a business that you have no experience of running else you'll either destroy your name by not delivering or go bankrupt raising funds to cover your underestimates. That's all on the backers is it?
Azazelx wrote: ...by launching a KS so the backers shoulder the risk.
Not meaning to come off as snarky to you, since I have a lot of respect for you and the RC, but that's how Mantic do things.
Giving up a well paying career, going from a stable income to running a company which may or may not succeed, putting several thousand pounds up front for concept art, sculpting etc so the KS launches with some actual content, ensuring that you correctly cost and plan everything for a business that you have no experience of running else you'll either destroy your name by not delivering or go bankrupt raising funds to cover your underestimates. That's all on the backers is it?
As an artist who did basically this but it was several thousand into training to be an artist and all the materials etc etc.. I definitely know where you're coming from. It's a lot of risk and in my instance has not paid off outside of some comic work and miniature design. However, if you ask around you will find a few artists who are willing to work for back-end pay on a project like that.
In the interests of full disclosure I do know Jake, and also Ronnie to a much lesser degree. The legal dispute is exactly that, a legal dispute. It's not my place to reveal what it is, that's up to Mantic or Jake should they want to, but it's nothing to do with Jake being unhappy with the rules committee. That could only lead to a legal dispute if it actually breached any legal agreement Mantic and Jake have with each other.
Also, and at the risk of the being that guy on the internet who claims to know stuff but won't say what any of it is, I do know stuff but won't say what any of it is lol. Other than to say that Jake worked freelance for Mantic (and as mentioned above it's because he likes being able to buy enough food to live), and as such he produces what Mantic want him to produce under the restrictions Mantic place on him. Which is not any criticism of Mantic, all companies place restrictions on their freelancers by definition. Mantic don't tell him they want a dungeon crawler and then let him go off and do whatever he wants, anymore than they let their concept artists and sculptors do whatever they want.
I am quite sure the dispute will either have something to do with payment, or ownership of game system, or in a more extreme case reputation damage and not if Mantic uses the rules committee, but I think that from the cracks of the dispute some jabs at the RC (maybe not the individuals but the notion of it existing) have slipped through.
Azazelx wrote: ...by launching a KS so the backers shoulder the risk.
Not meaning to come off as snarky to you, since I have a lot of respect for you and the RC, but that's how Mantic do things.
Giving up a well paying career, going from a stable income to running a company which may or may not succeed, putting several thousand pounds up front for concept art, sculpting etc so the KS launches with some actual content, ensuring that you correctly cost and plan everything for a business that you have no experience of running else you'll either destroy your name by not delivering or go bankrupt raising funds to cover your underestimates. That's all on the backers is it?
I think you misunderstood, or I was unclear. My quote was in reply to this part of it:
Alternatively if we have a saleable idea for a game and can put a pitch together, we can go through Mantic and get them to shoulder the risk, up front costs etc.
Apologies for not posting photos of the quality of the Walking Dead miniatures like I said I would. Unfortunately my copy hasn't arrived yet, it was posted out to me no later than the 31st October by Royal Mail but hasn't yet arrived despite copies reaching America. Starting to think it's either been lost in the post or left on my doorstep and stolen, unfortunately Mantic do not ship recorded so cannot track where it is.
I will post photos when it hopefully does turn up.
One thing I am concerned about is that they are selling the overstock of the Walking Dead Kickstarter Edition on the webstore but as a lot of people haven't received their copy yet does this mean they wont have any copies left to replace any damaged or lost in post copies? Just seemed a bit premature.
Does anyone know how Mantic has handled missing Kickstarter deliveries in the past? I assumed they would have sent recorded as it was quite an expensive game and would happily have paid extra for recorded delivery if it had been offered.
Aeneades wrote: One thing I am concerned about is that they are selling the overstock of the Walking Dead Kickstarter Edition on the webstore but as a lot of people haven't received their copy yet does this mean they wont have any copies left to replace any damaged or lost in post copies? Just seemed a bit premature.
Does anyone know how Mantic has handled missing Kickstarter deliveries in the past? I assumed they would have sent recorded as it was quite an expensive game and would happily have paid extra for recorded delivery if it had been offered.
Oh boy !! Sounds like Mantic is making the same mistakes they did with the Dungeon Saga KS. They sold stock and shipped to distributors before the all backers had their items and some were left waiting 6 - 8 months for reprint / restock of items. Some missing out on KS exclusives, even. I really hope Mantic set aside a contingency stock to deal with lost and damaged KS deliveries this time.
Did you go to their website with your account from Kickstarter email? You have to tick all item what you want and put in correct address and if there are postage charge ( it did on my walking dead board game) then click order. That it.
If you haven't pay order. Email them with your Kickstarter ref number.
Myrthe wrote:
Oh boy !! Sounds like Mantic is making the same mistakes they did with the Dungeon Saga KS. They sold stock and shipped to distributors before the all backers had their items and some were left waiting 6 - 8 months for reprint / restock of items. Some missing out on KS exclusives, even. I really hope Mantic set aside a contingency stock to deal with lost and damaged KS deliveries this time.
There are only two separate items in this wave (one for each of the two pledge levels) and they are Kickstarter exclusive so nothing is being shipped to distributors this time around. Instead they are selling the overstock directly from the Mantic store (at a much higher price than during the Kickstarter), just odd that they would sell this before they know how many copies are damaged / lost. I have seen quite a few overseas backers asking for a replacement copy because the Kickstarter exclusive box was damaged. Hopefully my copy is just delayed somewhere and does turn up soon.
a useful way to get them so search if yours is one of those sorting offices you can't get through to on the phone to ask them to check
I visited the local delivery office on Saturday but they couldn't find any parcels for my house, I am going to pop back tomorrow (late night opening on Wednesdays as can't usually get there in time during the week). Also visited all my closest neighbours as sometimes they are given parcels with no slip dropped through my door but going to do the entire road at the weekend.
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