My contention is that the formation should exist. The Riptide as it exists now is fine as a 275-300 pt model, not its current price point. It just takes too much damage for its current price.

pm713 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2 base riptides is still around 55-65 BS4 lascannons to take out, even accounting for failed nova charges. That means it's also 11-13 grav cannons. You know, the weapon that all the xenos lose their minds over.

But did we not just take it from 52 las cannons PER to just over 52 for both? Like i said, its too good, but that nerf just forces me to bring a riptide wing, something I'd rather not personally. I don't enjoy hyper-competitive tournament play on my FLGS Friday night 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd bring vespid's if i could find them for less than a kidney

Why does it force you to bring the wing?

Because the wing mitigates the risk of the proposed penalty for nova failure to well (re-roll failed nova). If i have a 1/3 chance of permanently being downgraded to bs1, or losing the invul altogether, or losing JSJ, then it's a never take, because you need those nova rolls to be worth while. so 33% chance of permanent nerf or 11% and take 1 more unit generally considered too good. OK yeah, i like using my units as intended, so I'll bring the 11% wombo-combo.

Or you could just take the risk like other factions have to.

you're missing the point, if i bring 1 yes, i have to take the risk, but if i take 3, i now have 3 riptides (good) and they reduce the risk buy 2/3 (great) and a special 1 use per game shoot 2ce counting as 1ce (awesome)... your penalty just makes it more binary. Either i will bring the wing, or none. And the wing is generally better than no riptides. even if i really only want 1 or 2 riptides total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
My contention is that the formation should exist. The Riptide as it exists now is fine as a 275-300 pt model, not its current price point. It just takes too much damage for its current price.

And the 2 of us have gone round and round about it before, and we've come to a mutual consensus 3x, different iterations each time. For 275-300 i'd want base bs4, but that's several past, and will be several future new threads

True. It's a strange outlier because of it's insane durability. This durability issues makes it a poster child for OP units.

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Nobody is saying balance doesn't matter, just that you have no idea what balance is in regards to game design.

The game needs counters, otherwise there is no reason for certain units to exist. There being imbalance to allow for more strategic choice is only a bad thing when someone refuses to adjust play style to accommodate the fact that the game requires two people to play.

Having counters to units is NOT the same as imbalance. Imbalance leads to spamming optimal units. Ie, imbalance removes counters, it does not provide them.

What you aren't paying attention to is that the person I was speaking to demands that every unit in the game be viable against every single other unit in the game. The idea that anti tank weapons should be viable against hordes and flyers should be able to take on an equal amount of points of anti aircraft guns is preposterous.

Imbalance exists in the game, I have a huge amount of houserules to rebalance the game at large to show I understand that. But what he is asking for makes no sense from a gameplay standpoint. Making a good list should be rewarded. Anyone who puts a strength of 8 on a fighter in DND has no grounds to complain when their character is terrible at their job in game. A badly made army list should lose more often than a good one. Period.

Edit: because my phone changes English...

I'm not talking traditio balance. I'm talking about this:

For 295 pts, the Eldar get a T8 W6 3+ model with two shots that ignore all armor and cause multiple wounds to MC. Oh, and it kicks butt in melee and can't be tarpitted because of stomp.

There is no available anti-tank available to the Imperium that's even close to as versatile and effective.

I'm talking about units in the same category: infantry, anti-tank, tank, flyer, etc that are just outright superior to other choices in their category for no particular reason.

Isn't there another thread about balance ongoing? I don't even know what this thread is about anymore.

What was it ever about?

Martel732 wrote:
What was it ever about?

A satire post about Traditio's inability to write a coherent post.

That grew stale, I suppose. I kinda feel bad for the guy.

pm713 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2 base riptides is still around 55-65 BS4 lascannons to take out, even accounting for failed nova charges. That means it's also 11-13 grav cannons. You know, the weapon that all the xenos lose their minds over.

But did we not just take it from 52 las cannons PER to just over 52 for both? Like i said, its too good, but that nerf just forces me to bring a riptide wing, something I'd rather not personally. I don't enjoy hyper-competitive tournament play on my FLGS Friday night 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd bring vespid's if i could find them for less than a kidney

Why does it force you to bring the wing?

Because the wing mitigates the risk of the proposed penalty for nova failure to well (re-roll failed nova). If i have a 1/3 chance of permanently being downgraded to bs1, or losing the invul altogether, or losing JSJ, then it's a never take, because you need those nova rolls to be worth while. so 33% chance of permanent nerf or 11% and take 1 more unit generally considered too good. OK yeah, i like using my units as intended, so I'll bring the 11% wombo-combo.

Or you could just take the risk like other factions have to.

And wha tother faction has a special rule meaning for a third of the time its going to be useless

BA have lots of regular rules making them useless 100% of the time.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not talking traditio balance. I'm talking about this:

For 295 pts, the Eldar get a T8 W6 3+ model with two shots that ignore all armor and cause multiple wounds to MC. Oh, and it kicks butt in melee and can't be tarpitted because of stomp.

There is no available anti-tank available to the Imperium that's even close to as versatile and effective.

I'm talking about units in the same category: infantry, anti-tank, tank, flyer, etc that are just outright superior to other choices in their category for no particular reason.

4 words my friend,

"Deimos, vindicator, laser, deatroyer."

Oh a knight? No no, you mean a target.

Martel732 wrote:
That grew stale, I suppose. I kinda feel bad for the guy.

I did too, then I saw his OT posts.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2 base riptides is still around 55-65 BS4 lascannons to take out, even accounting for failed nova charges. That means it's also 11-13 grav cannons. You know, the weapon that all the xenos lose their minds over.

But did we not just take it from 52 las cannons PER to just over 52 for both? Like i said, its too good, but that nerf just forces me to bring a riptide wing, something I'd rather not personally. I don't enjoy hyper-competitive tournament play on my FLGS Friday night 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd bring vespid's if i could find them for less than a kidney

Why does it force you to bring the wing?

Because the wing mitigates the risk of the proposed penalty for nova failure to well (re-roll failed nova). If i have a 1/3 chance of permanently being downgraded to bs1, or losing the invul altogether, or losing JSJ, then it's a never take, because you need those nova rolls to be worth while. so 33% chance of permanent nerf or 11% and take 1 more unit generally considered too good. OK yeah, i like using my units as intended, so I'll bring the 11% wombo-combo.

Or you could just take the risk like other factions have to.

And wha tother faction has a special rule meaning for a third of the time its going to be useless

Tyranids

Martel732 wrote:
That grew stale, I suppose.

Not really - the thread was hijacked by people with no sense of irony whining about how certain units are OP.

 BBAP wrote:
Not really - the thread was hijacked by people with no sense of irony whining about how certain units are OP.

I don't know why you expected it to turn out any different

 General Annoyance wrote:
I don't know why you expected it to turn out any different

I thought self-awareness would keep the zomgoppers from waxing whiny in a thread dedicated to mocking zomgop whiners. I was naive.

 BBAP wrote:
I thought self-awareness would keep the zomgoppers from waxing whiny in a thread dedicated to mocking zomgop whiners. I was naive.

Don't worry, I'll let you off for being fairly new around here, and for thoroughly entertaining me up to page 2

This has run its course, yeah