Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're bigger Bolters.

Not really, actually. Sisters wear power armor specifically so they can wield bigger weapons than ordinary humans. This is also why Sisters can walk around toting heavy bolters, where unaugmented humans have to wield them in teams.

Boltguns don't need to be made in to tiered weapons. Hell, even having Guard be able to have that bonus on a to-wound roll of 6 wouldn't be broken, since they have to pay for their bolters and can only have one per squad anyway. And, I should remind you, FRFSRF doesn't apply to boltguns anyway, nor can conscripts have any in their squad. For a d6 game like 40k, there's no reason to have a division between different types of boltguns. After all, it's not like GW differentiates between Scouts (who get S4, no power armor) and Marines (who get S4, having power armor) in close combat.

Yeah my original proposal was for all Bolt Weapons, which includes Sisters stuff.

I'm still not really for it, but that's less problematic a change.

Especially when Sisters have less special weapon access, it'll help the basic sister as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah that's not gonna stop people using Infantry. Mathematically you still don't kill a lot. 10 in rapid fire range is almost 9 dead. Or 36 points earned back.

It isn't like Sternguard are doing that spectacularly when ignoring that armor, and they're only maybe 4 or 5 points more. Sternguard are slightly popular, and yet that's not stopping Infantry or Gaunts being ran. Hmm.

That's not very convincing. Sternguard are 1 unit type, boltguns are on many. Casualty rate will jump for those of us that bring lots of marines, or lots of Storm Ravens with Hurricane Bolters. IMO bolter spam will be too powerful.

Nor does your calculation take morale into account, which will give you more points back. More still if you assault, too.

*Did you know a 10 man Tac Squad w/Plas, Combi-Plas, Grav Cannon will outshoot Sternguard against GEQ beyond the 12" band?

That squad loadout is almost 200 points. I'm pretty sure I'm able to make a Sternguard squad better than that for the price.

If you'll open your book you'll find that Tac loadout is 186, and a ten man Sternguard squad with default loadout is 180. Theres not the room you appear to think.

Looks like the guys that complain about marines don't know much about them...

 techsoldaten wrote:
I've been thinking they should be AP-1 all the time. You're firing a tiny rocket that explodes on impact. It should be able to take off some armor with that.

Would certainly make tacticals interesting again.

They should most definately be AP -1. They're supposed to be the finest mass produced rifle available to only the best of humanity. It's in complete contradiction to the fluff that they have no piecing.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I've been thinking they should be AP-1 all the time. You're firing a tiny rocket that explodes on impact. It should be able to take off some armor with that.

Would certainly make tacticals interesting again.

They should most definately be AP -1. They're supposed to be the finest mass produced rifle available to only the best of humanity. It's in complete contradiction to the fluff that they have no piecing.

And Necron Warriors get...

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah that's not gonna stop people using Infantry. Mathematically you still don't kill a lot. 10 in rapid fire range is almost 9 dead. Or 36 points earned back.

It isn't like Sternguard are doing that spectacularly when ignoring that armor, and they're only maybe 4 or 5 points more. Sternguard are slightly popular, and yet that's not stopping Infantry or Gaunts being ran. Hmm.

That's not very convincing. Sternguard are 1 unit type, boltguns are on many. Casualty rate will jump for those of us that bring lots of marines, or lots of Storm Ravens with Hurricane Bolters. IMO bolter spam will be too powerful.

Nor does your calculation take morale into account, which will give you more points back. More still if you assault, too.

*Did you know a 10 man Tac Squad w/Plas, Combi-Plas, Grav Cannon will outshoot Sternguard against GEQ beyond the 12" band?

That squad loadout is almost 200 points. I'm pretty sure I'm able to make a Sternguard squad better than that for the price.

If you'll open your book you'll find that Tac loadout is 186, and a ten man Sternguard squad with default loadout is 180. Theres not the room you appear to think.

My question is why I have to buy 10 dudes.

This is why your vision is just wrong. I don't have to buy 10 dudes in a Sternguard squad to get the weapons I need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Looks like the guys that complain about marines don't know much about them...

He's the one that says I NEED to buy 10 Sternguard. I think I got the familiarity.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I've been thinking they should be AP-1 all the time. You're firing a tiny rocket that explodes on impact. It should be able to take off some armor with that.

Would certainly make tacticals interesting again.

They should most definately be AP -1. They're supposed to be the finest mass produced rifle available to only the best of humanity. It's in complete contradiction to the fluff that they have no piecing.

And Necron Warriors get...

Something that actually fulfills the role of gauss, presumably. Maybe "roll of 6 deals an additional 2 damage" so you can actually strip apart vehicles with massed gauss fire like you used to.

 JNAProductions wrote:


And Necron Warriors get...

I don't know. Whatever is appropriate I suppose. Perhaps the more advanced rifles in the game need to be made more potent, not just the bolter. It might not be a bad thing. It just expect a broadly accurate representation of weapons on the tabletop. Its fair enough that flak armour and equivalent would stand a slim chance of deflecting a bolter round (6+ I'd say) -nobody wants a return to the near uselessness of 5+ armour from previous editions - but an ork or cultist's basic armour stopping a rocket propelled armour piercing round feels especially daft to me.

Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

And Reanimation Protocols, which I know sucks but was certainly supposed to be a really strong rule rather than just an addon like ATSKNF.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

And Reanimation Protocols, which I know sucks but was certainly supposed to be a really strong rule rather than just an addon like ATSKNF.

So yeah. Fix RP, and then MAYBE it'd be okay for their basic gun to be exactly the same as a Marine's.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

And Reanimation Protocols, which I know sucks but was certainly supposed to be a really strong rule rather than just an addon like ATSKNF.

So yeah. Fix RP, and then MAYBE it'd be okay for their basic gun to be exactly the same as a Marine's.

Mmm, I'd rather gauss mean something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah that's not gonna stop people using Infantry. Mathematically you still don't kill a lot. 10 in rapid fire range is almost 9 dead. Or 36 points earned back.

It isn't like Sternguard are doing that spectacularly when ignoring that armor, and they're only maybe 4 or 5 points more. Sternguard are slightly popular, and yet that's not stopping Infantry or Gaunts being ran. Hmm.

That's not very convincing. Sternguard are 1 unit type, boltguns are on many. Casualty rate will jump for those of us that bring lots of marines, or lots of Storm Ravens with Hurricane Bolters. IMO bolter spam will be too powerful.

Nor does your calculation take morale into account, which will give you more points back. More still if you assault, too.

*Did you know a 10 man Tac Squad w/Plas, Combi-Plas, Grav Cannon will outshoot Sternguard against GEQ beyond the 12" band?

That squad loadout is almost 200 points. I'm pretty sure I'm able to make a Sternguard squad better than that for the price.

If you'll open your book you'll find that Tac loadout is 186, and a ten man Sternguard squad with default loadout is 180. Theres not the room you appear to think.

My question is why I have to buy 10 dudes.

This is why your vision is just wrong. I don't have to buy 10 dudes in a Sternguard squad to get the weapons I need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Looks like the guys that complain about marines don't know much about them...

He's the one that says I NEED to buy 10 Sternguard. I think I got the familiarity.

You don't need 10 Sternguard, but you did start out with a 10-man example. You show me a high damage output Sternguard squad for the same points cost and I'll show you a squad that dies quicker, degrades fastsr, and gives up more points quicker because it's spending a minimum of 18 points a guy, rather than 13. Which makes it odd thing to see them preferred in a thread often lamenting the exhorbidant price of marines.

I started with 10 men in an example of how little Tactical Marines killed with the basic AP5 of last edition as a defense for the proposed rule that poster gave. I wasn't agreeing with it, merely disagreeing that it would stop Infantry squads from being fielded when pretty much all their previous problems went away.

Now, regarding Sternguard loadouts, I'd have to wait to grab my codex as I am currently half asleep, so I'll make a similar squad in the morning. HOWEVER, you say they give up points more easily when they honestly don't. They're only 5 more. A squad of 7 is 126, or just 3 less dudes at 4 points less. That's 2 Storm Bolters for a comparison but it isn't needed.

Same way that Assault Marines are a bad Codex entry because Vanguard exist and are only 3 points more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


And Necron Warriors get...

I don't know. Whatever is appropriate I suppose. Perhaps the more advanced rifles in the game need to be made more potent, not just the bolter. It might not be a bad thing. It just expect a broadly accurate representation of weapons on the tabletop. Its fair enough that flak armour and equivalent would stand a slim chance of deflecting a bolter round (6+ I'd say) -nobody wants a return to the near uselessness of 5+ armour from previous editions - but an ork or cultist's basic armour stopping a rocket propelled armour piercing round feels especially daft to me.

Maybe this editions Orks really believe that their shirts can stop Bolter rounds...

But yeah, that's why I'd rather just a neat special rule for Bolt Weapons. Gauss Weapons are gonna penetrate all the same no matter how well placed the shot is, and Shuriken gets better vs more elite units and Bolt makes the saves of lower enemies worse based off the number of Bolt Weapons you can get. Hence the rule I tried to come up with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

You don't need 10 Sternguard, but you did start out with a 10-man example. You show me a high damage output Sternguard squad for the same points cost and I'll show you a squad that dies quicker, degrades fastsr, and gives up more points quicker because it's spending a minimum of 18 points a guy, rather than 13. Which makes it odd thing to see them preferred in a thread often lamenting the exhorbidant price of marines.

Now that I have a Codex/Battlescribe in front of me...
One squad I came up with was 9 Sternguard (only one less dude) with 2 Plasma Guns for 184 points, or 2 less than the one you proposed (I opted for no Storm Bolter, as I think the math is more or less the same as the Special Issue Bolter, but hey I can add both right? Not gonna do it for now to prove a point). In rapid fire range, your proposed squad kills 7 GEQ and my squad kills 9. For MEQ, your squad kills 4 and mine 4.5. With one less guy I still had LD8-9, a greater threat range, and being slightly easier to get into cover (though not by much). THEN we have the better ability to stick differing loadouts for Sternguard compared to Tactical Marines. I can actually tool up for the specific job rather than the TAC I came up with on a whim.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I've been thinking they should be AP-1 all the time. You're firing a tiny rocket that explodes on impact. It should be able to take off some armor with that.

Would certainly make tacticals interesting again.

They should most definately be AP -1. They're supposed to be the finest mass produced rifle available to only the best of humanity. It's in complete contradiction to the fluff that they have no piecing.

And Necron Warriors get...

+1 to wound against VEHICLE keyword units. You're welcome.

Additionally RP isn't bad, it just falters as the game gets larger and the casualties each turn go from numbers of models to numbers of squads. It is ludicrously OP in tiny games, probably about right at 1k-1500, and gets pretty weak after that. The exact numbers can change based on how good the enemy army is at focusing damage against their statline. I definitely wouldn't mind if they fixed it to scale a bit better.
I had the idea of counting up your models with RP pre-game, and getting that as an RP total. At the end of any movement phase, you can return RP models to an existing unit at the cost of three RP points per wound. If a unit has been destroyed, you may return models at six RP per wound and they appear entirely within 6" of a cryptek or lord. RP bonus effects being in range would reduce the cost per model by one.

Something like that seems like it would scale better, and allow some tactical decisions on the part of the cron player, such as deciding that the destroyers are needed to do the heavy lifting in this particular game, and so all RP points go into keeping them alive and working, while the warriors are allowed to fall where they may.

RP is bad at any point level. It isn't hard to focus fire and kill a squad of anything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Now that I have a Codex/Battlescribe in front of me...
One squad I came up with was 9 Sternguard (only one less dude) with 2 Plasma Guns for 184 points, or 2 less than the one you proposed (I opted for no Storm Bolter, as I think the math is more or less the same as the Special Issue Bolter, but hey I can add both right? Not gonna do it for now to prove a point). In rapid fire range, your proposed squad kills 7 GEQ and my squad kills 9. For MEQ, your squad kills 4 and mine 4.5. With one less guy I still had LD8-9, a greater threat range, and being slightly easier to get into cover (though not by much). THEN we have the better ability to stick differing loadouts for Sternguard compared to Tactical Marines. I can actually tool up for the specific job rather than the TAC I came up with on a whim.

I think vs. MEQ your math is wrong, as I get Tacs doing 4.49 vs Stern of 4.57. Calculation is non overcharged plasma.

Here is my table vs more target categories at more ranges. GEQ and MEQ no overcharged plasma. TEQ and REQ (rhino equivalent) assume overcharged. Feel free to check my math. Winners in cyan.

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ

STERN--------8.4------------4.5-----------5.2-----------3.9

TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4


24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ

STERN ------4.2------------2.28----------2.6----------2.5

TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4

Your proposed Sternguard squad appears to lose out in every category other than those you selected to calculate. You can up-gun the Sternguard more if you like, but Imo that's not the strength of the Sternguard. Sternguard become really good when using their stratagem giving them a bonus to wound. Which makes them great, too. But you can only use the Stratagem once per turn, making it limited in use. What's nice about this is that the Sternguard really do act as a spearhead unit. However, if you want more squads up front with them, and giving interlocking supporting fire, Tacs do it better. There might some middle ground, maybe 8 Sternguard with 3 Combi-Plasmas or something, but IMO I'd just go all in with the Special Bolters and Stratagem on 10 guys.

Now Devastators will also be good in that role, but because they're armed with heavy weapons they're usually behind the lines a bit and trying not to move, while the Tacs are better at closing with their Specials.

Which all makes sense. Veterans as a spearhead squad backed up by Tacticals lending flexible support, with Devastators behind them providing longer ranged supporting fire. IMO well done GW.

Bolters kill 1.5, Plasma and Grav Cannon kills 1.5 each as well for a total of 4.5 Marines dead. Special Issue kills 3.5 and the Plasma Guns kill 1.5 for a total of 5. My math on that is NOT wrong.

Think your Terminator math is off as well. Your Tactical Squad gets .8 dead for Bolters, and Grav + Plasma gets 1.2 dead for a total of 3.2 wounds. Then Sternguard pop 1.2 with Plasma Guns and 2.6 wounds for a total of 3.8.

And neither one is equipped to do anything to a Rhino.

So please quit defending the unit entry like it's worth anything.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

But they come back to freaking life? Come on dude. That more than makes up for it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bolters kill 1.5, Plasma and Grav Cannon kills 1.5 each as well for a total of 4.5 Marines dead. Special Issue kills 3.5 and the Plasma Guns kill 1.5 for a total of 5. My math on that is NOT wrong.

You only brought 9 Sternguard remember?

MEQ is (.666 x .5 x .666 x 14) + (.666 x .666 x .83 x 4) = 4.57

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think your Terminator math is off as well. Your Tactical Squad gets .8 dead for Bolters, and Grav + Plasma gets 1.2 dead for a total of 3.2 wounds. Then Sternguard pop 1.2 with Plasma Guns and 2.6 wounds for a total of 3.8.

Gonna have to show your math. It's impossible for a GravCannon and 2 Plasma guns to average the same damage as 2 Plasma Guns. And .8 + 1.2 does not equal 3.2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
RP is bad at any point level. It isn't hard to focus fire and kill a squad of anything.

That's not actually true. Often being forced to finish off 3-4 remaining models so 16 don't have the opportunity to come back can consume a huge amount of firepower and therefore protects other units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
RP is bad at any point level. It isn't hard to focus fire and kill a squad of anything.

That's not actually true. Often being forced to finish off 3-4 remaining models so 16 don't have the opportunity to come back can consume a huge amount of firepower and therefore protects other units.

It's not hard to kill 4 Necron Warriors. You can go down to the Necron Tactica if you'd like and tell them that RP is good at even a certain point level. I insist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bolters kill 1.5, Plasma and Grav Cannon kills 1.5 each as well for a total of 4.5 Marines dead. Special Issue kills 3.5 and the Plasma Guns kill 1.5 for a total of 5. My math on that is NOT wrong.

You only brought 9 Sternguard remember?

MEQ is (.666 x .5 x .666 x 14) + (.666 x .666 x .83 x 4) = 4.57

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think your Terminator math is off as well. Your Tactical Squad gets .8 dead for Bolters, and Grav + Plasma gets 1.2 dead for a total of 3.2 wounds. Then Sternguard pop 1.2 with Plasma Guns and 2.6 wounds for a total of 3.8.

Gonna have to show your math. It's impossible for a GravCannon and 2 Plasma guns to average the same damage as 2 Plasma Guns. And .8 + 1.2 does not equal 3.2.

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.

It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

Wait a minute... does Xenomancers actually think Necrons are strong right now?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Wait a minute... does Xenomancers actually think Necrons are strong right now?

Well, at minimum he's implying RP works at smaller game levels. It works BETTER, but it still doesn't work.

Whether he thinks they're actually strong is a different question but the way the posts were worded sorta...bothers me, ya know.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

But they come back to freaking life? Come on dude. That more than makes up for it.

In theory? Sure, I'll give you that.

In practice? They get wiped.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.

It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

I forgot about the Grav, my bad.

However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.

Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.

Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.

Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.

And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.

Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Is there anything wrong with both Marines and Necrons having the same ST and AP weapons?

M.

Necrons are 1 point cheaper, but have a worse armor save, less buffs, no special weapons...

But they come back to freaking life? Come on dude. That more than makes up for it.

In theory? Sure, I'll give you that.

In practice? They get wiped.

I think a wiped squad should still be able to attempt to reanimate, though maybe at a penalty or something.

M.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.

It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

I forgot about the Grav, my bad.

However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.

Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.

Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.

Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.

And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.

Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.

Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.

24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4


But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.

RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97


And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.87----------4.4------------3.3----------2.9

If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:

Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.

The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.

So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.

And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.

Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.

It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

I forgot about the Grav, my bad.

However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.

Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.

Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.

Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.

And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.

Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.

Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.

24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4


But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.

RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97


And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.87----------4.4------------3.3----------2.9

If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:

Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.

The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.

So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.

And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.

Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.

1. You only overcharge when there's going to be rerolls though. That's the complaint with Plasma Weapons at the moment that you get rerolls galore and that Overcharge isn't dangerous and a double edge sword like it's meant to be. Kinda like how nobody took Plasma in 6th/7th except in SUPER fringe cases. Like, so fringe they might as well not have existed.
If you say you can do rerolls, I can say I get to use the Masterful Marksmanship Strategem. Which is another thing to actually point out. That would make the Bolters wound GEQ on 2+, MEQ/TEQ on 3+, and the REQ on a 4+. Math on that? I don't really feel like doing the math, but that's 6.6 against MEQ in Rapid Fire range and 4.7 (that's a whopping 1 Marine dead in the first scenario, though the non-Rapid Fire is less impressive). Against GEQ that's 10.2 dead in Rapid Fire range (which is a whole dead Infantry Squad that can't do screening now), and that's 7 dead outside Rapid Fire (which is now only 2 dudes left to protect the one good weapon. If you wanna take morale into account you can, but typically morale is gonna be ignored in some manner). Against REQ you're dealing 5.5 wounds in Rapid Fire range (which is just over half the wounds on a Razorback, which means that BS3+ is a mere 4+ now). Only 3 outside Rapid Fire, but oh well.
Tactical Marines get a Strategem from the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics (which mitigates the Overcharge danger), except it's redundant once you have rerolls. That makes it much less useful and way too specific.

2. I actually like Devastators, but they don't work as well as Grav Cannon delivery systems (as Pods are super expensive and still not good even after the price cut, and infiltration with Raven Guard or Lias should be used on units that are going to be more dangerous when they land). Lascannons are a different story there. 2 Lascannons and a Cherub is a perfect objective camper.

3. What you forget is Marines don't last long in the first place, so trying to pretend they do is a failing prospect. So is two less models in the squad a big deal anyway? The answer is no. If you hit the enemy hard enough, enemies won't kill you fast enough. That's why you see the more successful Marine lists using either Alpha Strike tactics, or focusing on the more durable models in the army (most of which aren't even Marine models). The mathematical advantage by killing a few models more goes a long way to making sure their units can't hold objectives (yeah Tactical Marines have Objective Secured, but you're going to be outnumbered by their Troops anyway, especially after just a couple die and then the opponent doesn't even have to bother touching the squad again because, let's face it, they're not scary offensively).
More the point is all 8 and all 10 are going to die in a round. Dead units typically don't attack back. I'd not bother even trying to kill all the Tactical Marines anyway as, outside your casual as all hell area, they're not scary. If I need an objective, I can shift Marines.

So does it matter 15 Marines perform the same against GEQ? No. You also forget that you need to be at 8" range for the grenades to work, so...

4. And if I need Command Points, I can just pay the Scout tax (and Scouts are the superior unit anyway to Tactical Marines, so I was already using those for screening purposes and to a lesser extent offensive purposes).
The generalist will fail to the specialist. I mean, I don't even have to pay for 8 Sternguard, and I could just specialize in 2 Grav Cannons and 3 Combi-Plasmas or just go all out with 4 Grav Cannons with some Devastators. I'm bringing that loadout to a tournament for FUN as I know they will mathematically do the job. Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment, and it shows based off when they DID show up (once with Rowboat? And you guys clamor to it forgetting about Rowboat and the Razorbacks that were doing the work...). It's a non-occurrence. At least Sternguard show up once in a blue moon as a true suicide unit, which is what I'm sorta doing.

See Tactics, Space Marines: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2100/727463.page#9750768

Holy Necrothread, Batman. Well, kinda.

I'll respond later.