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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

No. But by looking at him:
1. He can do okay vs larger amounts of models, which is nice.
2. He gives a last F-U to what kills him.
3. Lastly he's a Chapter Master for that sweet generic reroll.

He's not terrible, but melee is iffy at the moment with the vanilla codex, and if you wanted to do a gunline you can get a cheaper or tougher Chapter Master.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

No. But by looking at him:
1. He can do okay vs larger amounts of models, which is nice.
2. He gives a last F-U to what kills him.
3. Lastly he's a Chapter Master for that sweet generic reroll.

He's not terrible, but melee is iffy at the moment with the vanilla codex, and if you wanted to do a gunline you can get a cheaper or tougher Chapter Master.


Blood Raven get to pick their CT right?

Melee is Iffy probably more along towards the competitive lines but in general it could be usable and doable with something like Raven guard or black templars.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.


I've run him 4 or 5 times. He's performed well for me everytime. Buuuuut just like Slayer-Fan said, you can get more efficiency out of other options.

So far I've only run him in a gunline, his lack of shooting is kind of annoying but not really a big deal and so far he's been a great counter-assault unit vs Characters and MC's. I may have just been lucky but he's been an absolute beast in CC, completely dumpstering units like Hive Tyrants and Typhus. The one time I've seen him beaten in CC his Retribution skill gloriously finished off the Character that killed him. I have had no opprotunity to use his AoE attack yet so can't really comment on that.

He's fun but ultimately you can likely get similar results for less points if you look elsewhere.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/14 17:48:41


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

No. But by looking at him:
1. He can do okay vs larger amounts of models, which is nice.
2. He gives a last F-U to what kills him.
3. Lastly he's a Chapter Master for that sweet generic reroll.

He's not terrible, but melee is iffy at the moment with the vanilla codex, and if you wanted to do a gunline you can get a cheaper or tougher Chapter Master.

Blood Raven get to pick their CT right?

Melee is Iffy probably more along towards the competitive lines but in general it could be usable and doable with something like Raven guard or black templars.


They don't have an official parent Chapter/Legion, so you kinda get your pick until FW puts their foot down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/14 19:45:20


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 tpogs wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.


I've run him 4 or 5 times. He's performed well for me everytime. Buuuuut just like Slayer-Fan said, you can get more efficiency out of other options.

So far I've only run him in a gunline, his lack of shooting is kind of annoying but not really a big deal and so far he's been a great counter-assault unit vs Characters and MC's. I may have just been lucky but he's been an absolute beast in CC, completely dumpstering units like Hive Tyrants and Typhus. The one time I've seen him beaten in CC his Retribution skill gloriously finished off the Character that killed him. I have had no opprotunity to use his AoE attack yet so can't really comment on that.

He's fun but ultimately you can likely get similar results for less points if you look elsewhere.


I don't think I need every piece of my army to be the most efficient - I'm just not in that type of ultra competitive gaming scene. Having said that, it's great to hear he seems fun.

I wonder if he'd pair well with a squad of melee Tartarus terminators alongside some other drop units like Inceptors...
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Lemondish wrote:
 tpogs wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.


I've run him 4 or 5 times. He's performed well for me everytime. Buuuuut just like Slayer-Fan said, you can get more efficiency out of other options.

So far I've only run him in a gunline, his lack of shooting is kind of annoying but not really a big deal and so far he's been a great counter-assault unit vs Characters and MC's. I may have just been lucky but he's been an absolute beast in CC, completely dumpstering units like Hive Tyrants and Typhus. The one time I've seen him beaten in CC his Retribution skill gloriously finished off the Character that killed him. I have had no opprotunity to use his AoE attack yet so can't really comment on that.

He's fun but ultimately you can likely get similar results for less points if you look elsewhere.


I don't think I need every piece of my army to be the most efficient - I'm just not in that type of ultra competitive gaming scene. Having said that, it's great to hear he seems fun.

I wonder if he'd pair well with a squad of melee Tartarus terminators alongside some other drop units like Inceptors...


I was thinking Tartarus temires myself. lighting/claw and combi bolter seems a good mix

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Well this is a Tactica thread so some discussion of efficiency is unavoidable.

But to answer your question. No I do not think Gabe would be very good deepstriking in with CC terminators of any variety. Mostly just because deepstriking assault units are pretty bad in general currently. Gabes strongest attribute is his rerolls in my opinion, and that's wasted on a single unit.

A fun/fluffy alternative you could do is convert yourself an Apollo Diomedes as a Chaplain and drop him in with your Terminators, same effect but cheaper and will free Gave up to be somewhere more important.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 20:36:44


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 tpogs wrote:
Well this is a Tactica thread so some discussion of efficiency is unavoidable.

But to answer your question. No I do not think Gabe would be very good deepstriking in with CC terminators of any variety. Mostly just because deepstriking assault units are pretty bad in general currently. Gabes strongest attribute is his rerolls in my opinion, and that's wasted on a single unit.

A fun/fluffy alternative you could do is convert yourself an Apollo Diomedes as a Chaplain and drop him in with your Terminators, same effect but cheaper and will free Gave up to be somewhere more important.


Yes, of course. I did not mean to imply that it should be avoided, only that I think my particular gaming group gives me a lot of leeway in selecting suboptimal units that are otherwise good, but not the most efficient choice.

The goal was to find a way to drop him into the thick of it quickly and he of course would not be doing it alone. Tartaros termies were a pretty solid sturdy unit that could keep up with him, but I imagined they'd be supported by a big chunk of Inceptors - bolter and plasma. If going RG, I had planned to have him drop within range of the units I placed with SFTS, if the option presents itself. I also like to play with a lot of the Primaris assault weaponry like the auto bolters and auto incinerators as I've found tons of success with those and they're fun and super mobile. These elements will be moving up pretty quickly, so I imagine they'd lose out on his full reroll aura for a turn at most.

But it sounds like he'd be better off providing his reroll aura to as much of the firebase from turn one as possible, and counter charging where appropriate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 21:25:58


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




So I read somewhere (I THINK BoLS but I don't remember) that Sternguard can be equipped with all Storm Bolters as they're on the Combi-Weapon list. Is that correct? I'm out of town for work and can't check.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor






Yes, any vet can replace their special issue with a combi.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian





Sioux Falls, SD

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.
It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.
It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

So I'd have to math out Storm Bolters, Special Issue, and Special Issue w/ Strategem. That's a lot haha

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian





Sioux Falls, SD

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.
It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

So I'd have to math out Storm Bolters, Special Issue, and Special Issue w/ Strategem. That's a lot haha
Yeah, not try doing the following combo:

Sternguard with SI Boltguns
Near Pedro Kantor
Near Lieutenant
With +1 to hit from Rhino Primaris
Masterful Marksmanship
Bolter Drill

My Sternguard Alpha Strike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 02:02:49


5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




I've used them several times. They're quite good at taking enemy's objective holding troops and thinning screening units.

Although Scout Biker Squads seem to have more dakka at 12"

"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.
It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

So I'd have to math out Storm Bolters, Special Issue, and Special Issue w/ Strategem. That's a lot haha
Yeah, not try doing the following combo:

Sternguard with SI Boltguns
Near Pedro Kantor
Near Lieutenant
With +1 to hit from Rhino Primaris
Masterful Marksmanship
Bolter Drill

My Sternguard Alpha Strike.

I won't don't worry. I'm mostly striking them with Lias.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator





Crossroad

I need some suggestions on which forgeworld unitsI should field in a more competitive/ITC meta, any help or insight would be appreciated.

I have currently have great interest in adding the following units into my assaultback spam:

Sicaran Venator:
Pros: 62" threat range, no move/shoot penalty, tough-ish, great tank hunter, fast, strong anti-tank dakka, cheapish point wise
Cons: large model, hard to hide, will be nuked if not placed properly, need screening units for protection, high priority target

Xiphon
Pros: anti-flyer, its a flyer, great tank hunter, very fast, strong anti-tank dakka
Cons: can barely hide, its a flyer, high priority target, cannot hover

Fire Raptor:
Pros: anti-everything, its a flyer, will kill stuff guaranteed, tough, fast, alotta dakka, can hover, PotMS.
Cons: expensive point wise (and $$), cannot hide, its a flyer, very high priority target.

My current list in general:
5 assaultback loaded with mahreens backed by my chapter master for max re-rolls. 1 or 2 chaplain dreads with twin las for anti-tank.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

~4000 pts Deathwatch
~4000 pts ORKS ORKS ORKS
~1000 pts Sphess Mahreen
~2000 pts Admech 
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy




Sweden

Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/16 21:49:08


Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Gitdakka wrote:
Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Check the FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en-1.pdf

Tactical sergeants can have melta bombs.
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy




Sweden

Mandragola wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Check the FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en-1.pdf

Tactical sergeants can have melta bombs.


Ahh I see that explains battlescribe.. Is it only me who thinks it's odd thhat melta bombs are so heavily restricted to assult marines, vanguard and tac-marines. Why not crusader squads or sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does it have to do with the components in the boxes?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/17 14:04:06


Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Gitdakka wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Check the FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en-1.pdf

Tactical sergeants can have melta bombs.


Ahh I see that explains battlescribe.. Is it only me who thinks it's odd thhat melta bombs are so heavily restricted to assult marines, vanguard and tac-marines. Why not crusader squads or sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does it have to do with the components in the boxes?

Yes that’s the (stupid) reason. It’s why hellblasters sergeants can have plasma pistols that they’ll never use, why intercessors can have power swords but nobody else can, and so on. It’s very frustrating.
   
Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So I read somewhere (I THINK BoLS but I don't remember) that Sternguard can be equipped with all Storm Bolters as they're on the Combi-Weapon list. Is that correct? I'm out of town for work and can't check.


Another alternative that someone mentioned earlier in this thread is Company Veterans with storm bolters. They cost the same and have the same profile as sternguard, but you can't use the sternguard strategem, but you do get the bodyguard ability if a character is nearby.

The major advantage of Company Vets in this role is in list building--that you can take them in units as small as 2 guys. So if you have an extra 72 points leftover at the end of your list, you can get a unit of 4 that will actually do something useful, without having to lay out the full 90 points for a minsize unit of sternguard.

Or if you play Ravenguard like I do, and you want to game the tactical reserves system to keep most of your army out during deployment, then two vanguard detachments of Company Vets counts as six units on the table. Put them in razorbacks, and you can put 8 units on the tabletop with just 2 deployment drops.

Also notable for Ravenguard, storm bolters have the advantage of still getting 2 shots in the 24"-15" range band, unlike the SI Boltgun. So it gives you more standoff slack outside your 12"

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




The problem with Veterens is that I'm not getting those sweet Grav Cannons. That's why I was clarifying.

My opponents won't care. Bolters are the same size basically and as long as the points are the same and the list is legal, I'm good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor






Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

Doesn't it annoy anyone else that Veterens can go up a couple dudes but Honour Guard are frickin capped at two?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

Doesn't it annoy anyone else that Veterens can go up a couple dudes but Honour Guard are frickin capped at two?


Yes Very much so.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

Doesn't it annoy anyone else that Veterens can go up a couple dudes but Honour Guard are frickin capped at two?


I used to run 5/10 man honor guard squads all the time... they were a massively underappreciated gem in 6th/7th. Losing the extra melee weapon attack, the +1A banner and the +1A for charging means they're basically only useful as 12pt/wound ablative wounds for characters... that don't have jump packs.

Though, if we could go up to 5/10 man, they'd still be super cost effective 2+ bodies, at 2W each. Damage output would be pretty mediocore, but they'd be fairly hearty.
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






To all: This is a continuation of a debate that started in Proposed Rules here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/743674.page But I felt is was relevant to Marine Tactics, and I'm also interested in getting more eyes on for feedback, and because I think the mathhammer may be interesting to some. It's a monster post, I apologize.

History for any curious:
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.


It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

I forgot about the Grav, my bad.

However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.

Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.

Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.

Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.

And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.

Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.



Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.

24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4


But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.

RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97


And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.87----------4.4------------3.3----------2.9

If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:

Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.

The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.

So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.

And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.

Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.



1. You only overcharge when there's going to be rerolls though. That's the complaint with Plasma Weapons at the moment that you get rerolls galore and that Overcharge isn't dangerous and a double edge sword like it's meant to be. Kinda like how nobody took Plasma in 6th/7th except in SUPER fringe cases. Like, so fringe they might as well not have existed.
If you say you can do rerolls, I can say I get to use the Masterful Marksmanship Strategem. Which is another thing to actually point out. That would make the Bolters wound GEQ on 2+, MEQ/TEQ on 3+, and the REQ on a 4+. Math on that? I don't really feel like doing the math, but that's 6.6 against MEQ in Rapid Fire range and 4.7 (that's a whopping 1 Marine dead in the first scenario, though the non-Rapid Fire is less impressive). Against GEQ that's 10.2 dead in Rapid Fire range (which is a whole dead Infantry Squad that can't do screening now), and that's 7 dead outside Rapid Fire (which is now only 2 dudes left to protect the one good weapon. If you wanna take morale into account you can, but typically morale is gonna be ignored in some manner). Against REQ you're dealing 5.5 wounds in Rapid Fire range (which is just over half the wounds on a Razorback, which means that BS3+ is a mere 4+ now). Only 3 outside Rapid Fire, but oh well.
Tactical Marines get a Strategem from the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics (which mitigates the Overcharge danger), except it's redundant once you have rerolls. That makes it much less useful and way too specific.

2. I actually like Devastators, but they don't work as well as Grav Cannon delivery systems (as Pods are super expensive and still not good even after the price cut, and infiltration with Raven Guard or Lias should be used on units that are going to be more dangerous when they land). Lascannons are a different story there. 2 Lascannons and a Cherub is a perfect objective camper.

3. What you forget is Marines don't last long in the first place, so trying to pretend they do is a failing prospect. So is two less models in the squad a big deal anyway? The answer is no. If you hit the enemy hard enough, enemies won't kill you fast enough. That's why you see the more successful Marine lists using either Alpha Strike tactics, or focusing on the more durable models in the army (most of which aren't even Marine models). The mathematical advantage by killing a few models more goes a long way to making sure their units can't hold objectives (yeah Tactical Marines have Objective Secured, but you're going to be outnumbered by their Troops anyway, especially after just a couple die and then the opponent doesn't even have to bother touching the squad again because, let's face it, they're not scary offensively).
More the point is all 8 and all 10 are going to die in a round. Dead units typically don't attack back. I'd not bother even trying to kill all the Tactical Marines anyway as, outside your casual as all hell area, they're not scary. If I need an objective, I can shift Marines.

So does it matter 15 Marines perform the same against GEQ? No. You also forget that you need to be at 8" range for the grenades to work, so...

4. And if I need Command Points, I can just pay the Scout tax (and Scouts are the superior unit anyway to Tactical Marines, so I was already using those for screening purposes and to a lesser extent offensive purposes).
The generalist will fail to the specialist. I mean, I don't even have to pay for 8 Sternguard, and I could just specialize in 2 Grav Cannons and 3 Combi-Plasmas or just go all out with 4 Grav Cannons with some Devastators. I'm bringing that loadout to a tournament for FUN as I know they will mathematically do the job. Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment, and it shows based off when they DID show up (once with Rowboat? And you guys clamor to it forgetting about Rowboat and the Razorbacks that were doing the work...). It's a non-occurrence. At least Sternguard show up once in a blue moon as a true suicide unit, which is what I'm sorta doing.


@ Slayer: Delayed for math and lack of time, but here we go:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. You only overcharge when there's going to be rerolls though. That's the complaint with Plasma Weapons at the moment that you get rerolls galore and that Overcharge isn't dangerous and a double edge sword like it's meant to be. Kinda like how nobody took Plasma in 6th/7th except in SUPER fringe cases. Like, so fringe they might as well not have existed.
If you say you can do rerolls, I can say I get to use the Masterful Marksmanship Strategem. Which is another thing to actually point out. That would make the Bolters wound GEQ on 2+, MEQ/TEQ on 3+, and the REQ on a 4+. Math on that? I don't really feel like doing the math, but that's 6.6 against MEQ in Rapid Fire range and 4.7 (that's a whopping 1 Marine dead in the first scenario, though the non-Rapid Fire is less impressive). Against GEQ that's 10.2 dead in Rapid Fire range (which is a whole dead Infantry Squad that can't do screening now), and that's 7 dead outside Rapid Fire (which is now only 2 dudes left to protect the one good weapon. If you wanna take morale into account you can, but typically morale is gonna be ignored in some manner). Against REQ you're dealing 5.5 wounds in Rapid Fire range (which is just over half the wounds on a Razorback, which means that BS3+ is a mere 4+ now). Only 3 outside Rapid Fire, but oh well.
Tactical Marines get a Strategem from the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics (which mitigates the Overcharge danger), except it's redundant once you have rerolls. That makes it much less useful and way too


1. A: Re-rolls do not = ability to take Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem. Re rolls are a passive ability that affects multiple squads, and comes with an excellent HQ unit. It's practically bonkers not to have re-rolls in a marine army, so right away they're not equivalent.

1. B: But let's say they're equivalent for the sake of argument and see how they stack up if we're just using Stratagems.

Tactical Squad w/ Stratagem, full re-rolls to hit, moving -1 to heavy weapons:
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
TAC------------10.8----------5.98*----------7.3*---------6.7* *overcharging plasma

Sternguard with Stratagem, +1 to wound on Bolters, moving -1 to heavy weapons:
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN-------9.29-----------5.7----------6.2-----------4.8

Point for point, Tacticals come out ahead. They were already doing about the same amount of damage as the Sternguard, and benefit more from their Stratagem because it affects ALL of their weapons, unlike the Sternguard Stratagem which just affects their bolters.

Work:
Spoiler:
TACTICAL vs. :
GEQ --- 10.2 = (14 x .888 x .666 x .666) + (4 x .888 x .83) + (4 x .666 x .666)
MEQ --- 5.5 = (14 x .888 x .5 x .333) + (4 x .888 x .666 x .83) + (4 x .666 x .666 x .83)
MEQ* -- 5.98 = (14 x .888 x .5 x .333) + (4 x .888 x .83 x .83) + (4 x .666 x .666 x .83) -*Overcharging Plasma
TEQ ---- 7.3 = (14 x .888 x .5 x .17) + (4 x .888 x .83 x .666 x 2) + (4 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2)
REQ ---- 6.7 = (14 x .888 x .333 x .333) + (4 x .888 x .666 x .83 x 2) + (4 x .666 x .333 x .83 x 2)

STERNGUARD vs. :
GEQ --- 9.29 = (12 x .666 x .83) + (8 x .5 x .666)
MEQ --- 5.7 = (2 x .666 x .666 x .333) + (8 x .5 x .666 x .83)
TEQ ----6.2 = (2 x .666 x .666 x .5) + (8 x .5 x .666 x .666 x 2)
REQ --- 4.8 = (2 x .666 x .5 x .666) + (8 x .5 x .333 x .83 x 2)


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. I actually like Devastators, but they don't work as well as Grav Cannon delivery systems (as Pods are super expensive and still not good even after the price cut, and infiltration with Raven Guard or Lias should be used on units that are going to be more dangerous when they land). Lascannons are a different story there. 2 Lascannons and a Cherub is a perfect objective camper.


2:The 8 man Sternguard squad at 196 points costs one point more than a six man Devastator Squad with 4 Grav-Cannons and a Cherub, which is 195. Here we go.

Rapid fire Range and on the move, -1 to hit for heavy weapons. Throwing in Tacs for completion.
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
TAC-----------7.6-------------4.1-----------5.5*---------5* -*Overcharging Plasma
STERN-------7.98-----------4.8-----------5.5----------3.98
DEV-----------8.1-------------6.48---------10.1---------6.4

The Devs are waaaay better. This is why my next addition to my army will be a third squad. Imo if you were really serious about capitalizing on Lias, you'd be taking three squads of 10 Devs. In addition to being a better alpha strike, their damage output is less diminished by range, and could therefore take better advantage of the RG Chapter Tactics. (Lias is Raptors? Thus RG?. I don't know him very well)

Work:
Spoiler:
TACTICAL vs. :
GEQ --- 7.6 = (14 x .666 x .666 x .666) + (4 x .666 x .83) + (4 x .5 x .666)
MEQ --- 4.1 = (14 x .666 x .5 x .333) + (4 x .666 x .666 x .83) + (4 x .5 x .666 x .83)
MEQ* -- 4.49 = (14 x .666 x .5 x .333) + (4 x .666 x .83 x .83) + (4 x .5 x .666 x .83) -*Overcharging Plasma
TEQ ---- 5.5 = (14 x .666 x .5 x .17) + (4 x .666 x .83 x .666 x 2) + (4 x .5 x .666 x .666 x 2)
REQ --- 5.08 = (14 x .666 x .333 x .333) + (4 x .666 x .666 x .83 x 2) + (4 x .5 x .333 x .83 x 2)


STERNGUARD vs. :
GEQ --- 7.98 = (12 x .666 x .666) + (8 x .5 x .666)
MEQ --- 4.8 = (2 x .666 x .5 x .333) + (8 x .5 x .666 x .83)
TEQ ----5.5 = (2 x .666 x .5 x .5) + (8 x .5 x .666 x .666 x 2)
REQ --- 3.1 = (2 x .666 x .333 x .666) + (8 x .5 x .333 x .83 x 2)


DEVASTATORS vs. :
GEQ --- 8.1 = (2 x .666 x .666 x .666) + (8 x .666 x .666) + (12 x .5 x .666)
MEQ --- 6.48 = (2 x .666 x .5 x .333) + (8 x .666 x .666 x .83) + (12 x .5 x .666 x .83)
TEQ ----10.1 = (2 x .666 x .5 x .17) + (8 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2) + (12x .5 x .666 x .666 x 2)
REQ --- 6.4 = (2 x .666 x .333 x .333) + (8 x .666 x .333 x .83 x 2) + (12 x .5 x .333 x .83 x 2)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. What you forget is Marines don't last long in the first place, so trying to pretend they do is a failing prospect. So is two less models in the squad a big deal anyway? The answer is no. If you hit the enemy hard enough, enemies won't kill you fast enough. That's why you see the more successful Marine lists using either Alpha Strike tactics, or focusing on the more durable models in the army (most of which aren't even Marine models). The mathematical advantage by killing a few models more goes a long way to making sure their units can't hold objectives (yeah Tactical Marines have Objective Secured, but you're going to be outnumbered by their Troops anyway, especially after just a couple die and then the opponent doesn't even have to bother touching the squad again because, let's face it, they're not scary offensively).
More the point is all 8 and all 10 are going to die in a round. Dead units typically don't attack back. I'd not bother even trying to kill all the Tactical Marines anyway as, outside your casual as all hell area, they're not scary. If I need an objective, I can shift Marines.

So does it matter 15 Marines perform the same against GEQ? No. You also forget that you need to be at 8" range for the grenades to work, so...



3. A:You're making an argument at odds with itself. On the one hand you're saying marines don't last long, as though it doesn't matter how many buffer wounds are in the squad. On the other hand you are saying doing a few extra wounds "goes a long way". Therefore, having a few extra wounds also would "go a long way".

3. B: If you're ignoring the last few guys of a Tactical squad, you're ignoring the actual damage dealers of the squad. The guys that are doing the brunt of the work in making their offensive output similar to the Sternguard.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

4. And if I need Command Points, I can just pay the Scout tax (and Scouts are the superior unit anyway to Tactical Marines, so I was already using those for screening purposes and to a lesser extent offensive purposes).
The generalist will fail to the specialist. I mean, I don't even have to pay for 8 Sternguard, and I could just specialize in 2 Grav Cannons and 3 Combi-Plasmas or just go all out with 4 Grav Cannons with some Devastators. I'm bringing that loadout to a tournament for FUN as I know they will mathematically do the job. Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment, and it shows based off when they DID show up (once with Rowboat? And you guys clamor to it forgetting about Rowboat and the Razorbacks that were doing the work...). It's a non-occurrence. At least Sternguard show up once in a blue moon as a true suicide unit, which is what I'm sorta doing.


4: A: If Tacs can have a similar damage output to Sternguard, I don't see any reason for the "Scout Tax" for CP. By all means take scouts if you want to use them for screening or positioning, though. Comparing Tacs to Scouts is far from simple, as they perform different roles.

4: B: "The generalist will fail to the specialist". Then why build the 8 man Sternguard Squad instead of the Devastators? Sternguard are generalists in comparison. It would be interesting to see a Sternguard Squad loadout that was more specialized and could compete better for damage output, however, I think you'll probably see diminishing returns, as what really makes Sternguard special are the special issue bolters. Loading them up with more gear is missing the point, I think.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

outside your casual as all hell area. . .

Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment. . .


The easygoing version of my standard drop (two ten man Tacticals and an 8 man Devastator Squad) outperforms the three Sternguard Squad drop. This is not including a Lieutennant or the option of doubling up on special weapon Tactical Combat Squads. I'll be the first to admit the overall list isn't ideal, but the first thing I'll do is get a third Devastator Squad, and probably drop my Scouts. As for my "casual as hell area" I'd argue that if you're getting decent results with three Sternguard Squads, I can do the same with Tacs and Devs.


By the way the Storm Bolters on Sternguard (I've wanted to do this math for a while) get you: (Assuming 10 man Squads)

RFrange_________________GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
Stern w/ Special Issue:----------8.87------------4.4-----------3.3----------2.9
Stern w/ Storm Bolters:----------11.8------------4.4-----------2.2----------2.9
Stern w/ SI +Stratagem:---------11--------------5.9-----------4.4----------4.4


Work:
Spoiler:

STERNGUARD w/Special Issue vs. :
GEQ --- 8.87 = (20 x .666 x .666)
MEQ --- 4.4 = (20 x .666 x .5 x .666)
TEQ ----3.3 = (20 x .666 x .5 x .5)
REQ --- 2.9 = (20 x .666 x .333 x .666)

STERNGUARD w/Special Issue vs. :
GEQ --- 11.8 = (40 x .666 x .666 x .666)
MEQ --- 4.4 = (20 x .666 x .5 x .333)
TEQ ----2.2 = (20 x .666 x .5 x .17)
REQ --- 2.9 = (20 x .666 x .333 x .333)

STERNGUARD w/Special Issue and Stratagem vs. :
GEQ --- 11.05 = (20 x .666 x .83)
MEQ --- 5.9 = (20 x .666 x .666 x .666)
TEQ ----4.4 = (20 x .666 x .666 x .5)
REQ --- 4.4 = (20 x .666 x .5 x .666)

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




For special or combi-weapons (including Storm Bolters), you're better off taking Company Vets, with a small caveat for combi-flamers. For heavy weapons, you're better off with Devastators. Sternguard have 4 things going for them:

Special Issue Boltguns: For going cheap and effective at longer range vs. better AV targets, and a decent use of command points on the Stratagem.

Heavy Flamers: Can be effective up close, and work as a charge deterrent.

Able to mix heavy and combi-weapons: Not super great, and you can do this to a lesser extent with Tactical squads, but it's one thing only they can really do.

Able to take up to 10 special and combi-weapons in 1 squad: Usually a bad idea compared to taking multiple smaller squads, but useful for the SIB Stratagem. This is also where the combi-flamer caveat comes up for Salamanders and Flamecraft, as it's the only way to hit 6-10 flamers (2 of which are optionally heavy) with the Stratagem. Going all flamers generally requires some sort of transport, and gets rather expensive though.
   
Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




I've been running 10 combi-plasma Sternguards (and 10 SIB ones) under Lias Issodon for quite some time. After these CA changes I've just compared them to Inceptors and I must say, that the Inceptors look really good.

10 combi-plas Sterns are 310 pts
5 plasma Inceptors are 295 pts

If I haven't misunderstood anything, they have exactly the same firepower up to 12". I'd even say that 18" Assault 2 is better than 24" Rapid Fire 1. It helps them utilise Raven Guard's CT better while maintaining full firepower.
Aginst small arms fire they are tougher due to T5, against multi dmg weapons the Sterns are.
They don't need Lias to be able to deep strike.
They are faster.

I'd feel really bad to buy some now, cause that'd probably make me stop using Sterns. And I've just ordered some Assassins, so there isn's really much space for new units in reserves...

"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
 
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