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Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





So guys, trying to figure out how Space Marines fair in 8th edition..


tac Marines are still restricted to 10 man squds if they want the heavy weapon, give the changes to heavy weapons do people see 10 man tac squads having a use? or are we still sticking with 5 man squads for maximum impact? (or are intercessors a better deal to the point where we should be abandoning our old tac squads for the new hotness?)


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

82 points gets you a 5 man tactical squad with a melta gun, who should be riding in a 100 point razorback with a twin assault cannon.

Get out and shoot a tank or monster, otherwise hang out in the razorback.

Intercessors will have to only ride in the Repullsor, and are 18 more points than my above squad for slightly better bolters and the wounds of a full tactical squad.

Personally im going to be going with the tactical squads still, but thats just my preference.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Should combiweapons still be taken? Is it worth it to take Power fists on Sgts or is it better to stick to the lower cost weapons since they only get two attacks?

I was debating doing 10 man Tac with flamer Cflamer and HB in a rhino, maybe Axe on Sgt. Is it worth going all in like that or better to spread out to 5s and the RBs and take Assault marines for getting in close?
   
Made in us
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

Tacts can get two Specials at 10 models now from the looks of it, which makes buying 10 and splitting them or just running a group and using the split fire more viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KaoxVeed wrote:
Should combiweapons still be taken? Is it worth it to take Power fists on Sgts or is it better to stick to the lower cost weapons since they only get two attacks?

I was debating doing 10 man Tac with flamer Cflamer and HB in a rhino, maybe Axe on Sgt. Is it worth going all in like that or better to spread out to 5s and the RBs and take Assault marines for getting in close?

If you want quantity of attacks Chainswords are a cheap way to buff your SGT's melee. That said, combi weapons are frankly awesome and I'd either run them or the newly buffed (and 8 points cheaper) plasma pistol. The S7 shot is a lot better than it used to be and you only risk death if you over charge (and you can mitigate that risk if you're range of a captain or similar character).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 14:14:28


The absence of faith is the mark of the weak.
The absence of faith is the mark of the heretic.
The absence of faith is the mark of damnation.

- extract from "The Stern Codex"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tacts can get two Specials at 10 models now from the looks of it, which makes buying 10 and splitting them or just running a group and using the split fire more viable.
Nope. The datasheet specifies that you can only take one Special. However, the Sergeant taking a Combi-Weapon effectively gives you two Special Weapons anyway.

In other news, I am kicking myself over the fact I took the Chainswords off my two Combi-Melta Tactical Sergeants and gave them pointing fingers instead. Good news is that I have two more Tactical Squad kits to build two more Squads out of (Combi-Plasma and Plasmagun Squads at that).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?
I do. It irritates me quite a bit. It isn't like the Imperial Fists are going to be the only Chapter that gets the Land Raider Achilles either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 15:20:09


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I spent some time yesterday reading through all of the SM book and here are some of my thoughts on it+ comments aimed at what people have already said:

The way I see it, putting Tacs in a Razorback only makes the Razorback more of a target, and the troops don't do much for you until they get out. Also, although the Razorback can move, it's better off sitting still, since most of the weapons are Heavy (though the classic Las/Plas has an advantage for this reason) and you then hit on a 4+. Additionally, if the Razorback does die with the guys inside, you are likely to lose at least 1 guy. I personally think my Razorbacks will be empty, sitting mostly in the back shooting things.

Also, I think the days of the suicide melta may mostly be gone. 1 Meltagun can't kill most tanks in one shot, and even 2 (Melta+combi) are not that likely to do so, making the double melta tac squad less effective in my opinion than before. And even if they were, I still don't think that a Razorback is the ideal delivery mechanism. Rhinos are also not great since they cost so much, and seem to mostly exist in order to boost an assault unit across the board so they can get out and charge something (not something Tac squads really care to do with their 6-11 attacks).

For all of those reasons, I think that Tac squads may now be better off as walking 5 man Plasma/Combi-Plasma squads, or 10 man Plasma/Combi-Plasma/Heavy Weapon combat squads (I think Las Cannons, Missile Launchers, and Grav might be the best options this edition). They can drop pod in and do some rapid fire goodness, or just walk into midfield shooting stuff at 12-24" and get objectives or whatever.

I would also consider having a Captain or Primaris Lieutenant around them, and any other back-line shooting units, for the re-rolling 1s to hit and wound.

Tacs are fairly useless in CC no mater what you give the Sergeant, and are somewhat low on the threat priority list compared to most other units, so i don't see them attracting too much attention even they are fairly unprotected.

I also don't see most people taking a ton of Tac squads this edition, though maybe a 60+ marine spam list could have some value, what with all of the other cool and useful units out there.

I think Devastators will be strong this edition, since Las Cannons and Missile Launchers are the main anti-tank guns and they are fairly cheap (165 Points for 5 guys 4 Las or ML) compared to predators and other heavy weapon platforms.

I also think anything with a jump pack or the ability to teleport will be pretty strong. Drop Pods too, but the unit inside will have to be so annoying it is worth buying the pod for 105...and i'm not sure SM have many units like that that cannot already take a jump pack...so i am not sure we will see much of them. It is too bad that Dreadnoughts and Centurions cannot go in drop pods anymore, as they have might actually be worth taking one for. As it is probably the only thing i can think of to take it with would be Sternguard, since their shooting at 9" is fairly good, making it less of a big deal if they make the charge or not.

Even though you have to roll fairly high to make the charge from over 9" away, some units should make it in to combat and probably wreck something, and at the very least you are in their face. Also, Shrike gives rerolls to this charge roll for jump pack units, and if you feel like playing as Blood Angels, Lemartes gives re-rolls to Death Company, so I feel both of those options are extra valid. And even for the Teleporting units, 5 terminators showing up in your face still demands attention whether they make the charge roll or not.

For HQs, I think Captains and Priamris Lietenants are the best all around choice, since rerolling 1s to hit and wound (respectively) are very strong by them selves, and somewhat devastating together. On a side note, the Space Wolf version of this (Lord + Wolf Guard Battle Leader) is even cheaper points wise, and both of those units have a lot more mounting options than normal SM, so i think they will be a staple as well.

Librarians seem good if you can make use of their powers in a good way. The normal SM powers are decent for buffing a CC unit and removing enemy invul saves, the BA powers are good VS low T enemies and buffing close combat units, the DA powers are good defensive de-buffs, and SW are a nice mix of defensive and damaging. Mephiston (BA) is Monster for only 145 points, and Njal, Tigurius, and Ezekiel are all also quite good for their points, so much so that im not sure its worth it to ever take a normal lib or rune priest (who seem extra mediocre this edition).

Chaplains seem good if you plan to do a lot of assaulting. The SW Wolf Priests seem even better since they can heal a unit D3 wounds so they go good with TWC/Wulfen Etc units.

Most of the other named SM HQs I haven't mentioned seem fairly mediocre to me. They mostly cost a lot without doing much more than the non-named versions. The SW ones on the TWCs seem okay but i'm not sure they are much better than a normal Wolf Lord (Harald Deathwolf might be better, i'll have to see). Roboute Guilliman is another one I'm not too sure about. He costs a lot, but his buffs to the army and pretty scary statline may very well make him worth it. Something worth trying out I think.

The Techmarine and Apothecary seem decent if you have enough units of that type to heal (Multi-Wound Models / Vehicles). A Techmarine can heal 5-15 wounds over 5 turns, which may be worth the minimum 70 points. The Apothecary is good with a unit of centurions or something.

Space Marine vehicles cost a lot more than did before, but i still think a lot of them will be good, most notably Predators. I think Land raiders will be good with a decent CC unit inside them, though they are also quite expensive. Land Speeders and most of the other tanks also seem okay, but they also seem to cost a lot. I guess time will tell which ones are actually worth it.

I think assault marines seem good with shrike and meh otherwise, scout snipers are a solid choice since they can hurt characters, and bikes seem like they are generally about as good as they were before, though the removal of salvo weapons hurt them some. But Bikes have more wounds now, so i think there is still a place for them as a fast source of plasma or grav.

I obviously left out some stuff, but that's all i have for now lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 15:35:57


 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Denver, CO, USA

I'm leaning toward minimum squads with matching specials/combis. Not sure about transports yet at the cost, although I'm hoping White Scars get a mobility boost of some sort in the name of fluffiness. I'd like to go fully mechanized if it doesn't ruin my model count.

Heavies will go in Dev squads and hope to stand and shoot when they can and move when they have to. I own a bunch of Grav, but I may need to break out and build some other options.

Still on the fence about Assault vs. Bikes. The fact that the Fly keyword allows you to leave CC and still shoot is something to consider.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Remember, a drop pod is a Storm Bolter when it lands. It also no longer puts you in Melta range or flamer range, though it does put you in multi-Melta range.

Given that jump and terminator units can serve the purpose of leaping to the enemy side of the board, I'm not sure 100 points would ever be worthwhile unless something really creative comes to mind.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




changemod wrote:
Remember, a drop pod is a Storm Bolter when it lands. It also no longer puts you in Melta range or flamer range, though it does put you in multi-Melta range.

Given that jump and terminator units can serve the purpose of leaping to the enemy side of the board, I'm not sure 100 points would ever be worthwhile unless something really creative comes to mind.


Yeah, i think Sternguard are the only unit that it makes any sense for, or possibly devastators with Grav/Multi-Meltas, or maybe on of those units + a Named Character that you REALLY want to be near the rest of the guys in a mostly first turn jump pack/teleport list, but honestly both of those still feel like a long shot to me.
   
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Tail Gunner





Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.

They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 17:34:08


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.

They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.


Yeah they definitely are not worth taking on Tac squads. Also, Tac sergeants actually only get 2 attacks with it as far as i can tell. Power fists are pretty bad VS vehicles anyway with only D3 damage, though they are still pretty good VS most infantry units, and on realy assault units (with at least 3 attacks, and usually some kind of re-roll character around) should actually be able to kill 1-2 dudes just with the fist.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





At first I was worried about my lack of real troops choices due to using Bikes (White Scars), but I can still use a Fast attack detachment with Kahn, and a heavy detachment for my TFC and Centurions, and flyer detachment to recreate the Raptor Wing in my old list and still get at least 3 command points.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.

They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.


It's not as if you were hitting on a 3 most of the time against real opponents anyway. That said, the power fist is in fact objectively bad, since the thunder hammer costs the same and does more damage.
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Kingsley wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.

They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.


It's not as if you were hitting on a 3 most of the time against real opponents anyway. That said, the power fist is in fact objectively bad, since the thunder hammer costs the same and does more damage.
Not everything can take a Thunder Hammer, and on a character (where you will be getting more attacks) they cost more. On non-character units, there is no reason not to take the Hammer if it is available though.

5250 pts
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




One army I am theory crafting in my head is a guilliman devstator based force. Guilliman provides the rerolls and has a mean counter punch against assault, and missile launchers were a big winner in the update
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

So I am trying to figure out which Ancient I want to take in my Honour/Command Squad. From the looks of it, the Chapter Ancient pays 9 pts for +1 Ld and +1 Sv compared to the Company Ancient. It sacrifices all customizability though. I can't really see how the Chapter is worth it. Additionally, the Chapter Ancient MUST take a Power Sword, so that bumps the difference to 13 points base.

Is there ever really a scenario that the Chapter Champion is better?

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
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30K 2500 pts 
   
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






Think I'll be starting my own custom chapter soon, using Salamander CT if and when we get them. Have no interest in primaris at the moment, be sticking with the regular guys.

Really hope we get a new Scout kit one day, cause the current ones are ugly as hell.

GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants" 
   
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On the Internet

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tacts can get two Specials at 10 models now from the looks of it, which makes buying 10 and splitting them or just running a group and using the split fire more viable.
Nope. The datasheet specifies that you can only take one Special. However, the Sergeant taking a Combi-Weapon effectively gives you two Special Weapons anyway.

In other news, I am kicking myself over the fact I took the Chainswords off my two Combi-Melta Tactical Sergeants and gave them pointing fingers instead. Good news is that I have two more Tactical Squad kits to build two more Squads out of (Combi-Plasma and Plasmagun Squads at that).

I stand corrected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So some thoughts from a 1k Patrol detachmen game I had today against Space Wolves using Vanilla Marines (Imperial Fists) as well as watching a couple of other games:
Lascannons are quite potentially nasty. With the ability to reroll a die a phase, it's not hard to increase your odds of doing more damage.

That said, tanks definitely feel tankier. While anything "can" wound anything the higher number of wounds and better saves than older editions means that even if you can wound, doesn't that those wounds will get through. Even plasma (outside of Hellblasters) with all of the buffs it got doesn't negate the armour save, so while it wounds on 4 or better against most targets, it still has a chance of failure against a 3+.

Also with Rhinos being a 12" move until the start taking wounds, against anyone who doesn,t have proper anti-armour they can be in your face raher quickly without even needing to advance.

Just like in 5th, LoS blocking terrain to break up the table is a must. Not only does it help lessen hurt gunlines an deal out, it can slow down assault armies from being able to effectively cross tables as quickly. Our low point games where on a 4x4' table, and without some kind of center piece units could cross from one corner to the other rather quickly.

Deploy back from your 12" line if you can help it as first turn charges (in my case, Swiftclaws charging my Sniper Scouts before they could even blink) will hurt quite badly. A unit that dies at the top of turn 1 can't make points back, so protecting units will have to do with placement on the table as well as usage of cover.

Cover saves improving saves is quite awesome. Nothing quite like 2+ saves on your guys to make even a Tactical Marine feel tougher.

That said, in general Marines feel more durable. After three rounds of shooting I lost 1 tactical Marine. Command Point re-rolls saved one on turn 2, but the rest of my saves, to include 11 Frag shots, and a fair amount of other shooting did nothing to take the guys down. Remember how hard it is to kill a Marine in the fluff? It actually FEELS like that on the table.

Smart usage of multi-damage weapons (to include Overcharged Plasma) is a must for taking down multi wound models. Plasma pistols did more for me today to kill Thunderwolf Cav (Plasma Pistols and Power Axes due to points limitations) than my bolters. Likewise, two Lascannons and some lucky damage rolls murdered my Ven Dread before the poor old man could even get a turn to do anything.

Sternguard feel off currently. While they have a good veteran statline, taking combi weapons is now limited to two models, and doing so makes them lose the special ammo. Going forward, to save points I'd either run them with no upgrades and focus on weaker save models since -2 AP is great for killing anything with a 4+ and they have 30" range with Rapid Fire 1, or swap for special weapons or the two heavy flamers depending on how I intend on running the squad.

Melta is not going to punch holes through armour like it used to. That said, when it does put a hole in things it has a better chance of doing more wounds. Depending on cost and range considerations it can be a bit of a toss-up between Lascannonss and Multi-meltas. Lascannons will more likely put holes in things, and at loner ranges, but multi-meltas will more likely make bigger holes holes when they manage to punch holes into things.

Just a note: If a unit and a tank are both the same distance from a unit you wish to charge try to get the ank stuck in first. Nothing like watching your beastly close combat unit lost two guys to Overwatch on a short charge because you didn't let the tank try and take the shots first. Plus some tankes do bonus damge on a charge (some Land Raiders do D3 Mortal Wounds on a charge if you roll a 4+ on a D6).

If you like plasma you'll want a Captain somewhere close to them just to make Overcharging them more feasible. Plus the squad can then in turn protect the Captain by screening him.

Psychic powers feel pretty good. They aren't amazing but Smite eloed my dead scouts see some vengeance by accidently killing 3 Swiftclaws (rolled a 3 on D3 for Mortal Wounds) and Veil of Time made my opponent spend more time focusing on killing my Sternguard through shooting just because they would have gone first if he charged. Easy to use, quick but nowhere close to being overpowered. Due to a lack of Psykers or Invul Saves my other power Null Zone didn't get any use today.

Hopefully my rambling notes from today help you guys!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 04:09:08


The absence of faith is the mark of the weak.
The absence of faith is the mark of the heretic.
The absence of faith is the mark of damnation.

- extract from "The Stern Codex"
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I am eager to try put my Storm Raven on the table again. It seems really strong in 8th.
   
Made in us
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What are people's thoughts on double heavy flamer land speeders for 114. I know a twin Heavy Flamer Razorback is only 99pts, but those razorbacks don't move 16" and fly. A unit of 3 or these can move 20" +D6 if they advanced, and fire their heavy flamers.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in fi
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






How are people feeling about the primaris units?

(I assume that the point costs in the index are the current one and the costs in the starter box leaflet are to be ignored.)

At 20 points per model, I think the intercessors are pretty decent. Increased range, AP and survivability is probably worth 7 points over tacticals. Lack of options of course is a bummer, but I can see them being pretty decent MSU objective campers that can threaten large are due the long range of their weapons.

Hellblasters are pricey, but they pack a lot of punch. I think these are best to be used in combination with a barebones vanilla captain to give them rerolls, so they can blast with the high power setting relaively safely. A captain and two or three hellblaster squads would be a truly formidable firebase. They really nee that captain to babysit them though.

The inceptors I'm really most iffy about. I really love the models and i really wish they'd be amazing, but I really don't see it. With their weapons they're whopping 75 points per model! Is anyone really that afraid of heavy bolter shots?


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

So I originally wrote this up for B&C last night, but felt that since the topic is about Templars too apparently, that some actual Templar related squad load out and synergy stuff would be fair to share here:

After getting some play time in (thanks to my FLGS's copy of the new edition's rules) and watching other armies I feel like I may have an idea of where to go finally and felt like doing a write up to share with everyone else here.

The Crusader Squad and 8th Edition
While I have always been a large fan of the look of a horde of bodies running at their foes with little more than bolt pistol, chainsword and enough zeal to teach the meaning of fear and regret to anyone they face, times have changes, and so has the way we run Templars. Long dead are the all foot lists of Yore, and in their wake came MSU squads of guns and a strange shooty build of Templar that many felt uncomfortable with.

Strangely enough, I have to say that both may be the answer going forward. No, not alone as seperate squads or lists, but together in a single unit. And he reason why comes from the core rules themselves:

There is no weapon that a Crusader Squad can take that we can't charge in afterwards and beat someone to death with.

This understanding today has actually lead me to consider a more...schitzophrenic approach to Crusader Squads. One where the unit takes a special and heavy weapon (or melee weapon option if you don't like shooting someone with a heavy bolter and then beating the dead man's friends to death with it), and largely fills out the rest with bolt pistols and chainswords. The exception I feel should be on the Neophytes. Since Rapid Fire no longer prevents charging, giving them a couple of Bolters is not a horrible idea, mostly as they can help plink off a couple extra models before the charge to allow our Crusader Squads inflict as much damage as possible each turn. And if you lose some models, then taking them off first isn't a real problem as you'll be in charge range (or potentially charging If Overwatch killed anyone first) and not need the extra range to potentially whittle down a unit. 

That said, the shotgun might be worth consideration if you olay in a meta with a large amount of T5 and/or T8-9 as the difference between wounding on 4s (compared to 5s) for the latter at half range, and 5s for the latter (compared to 6s) could help make a tougher to kill model (Gravis Armour models, big bugs, some tanks) a little easier. 

Personal preference and local metas will largely impact how people load out their models for the new edition, but as Neophytes are only worse on their save, when it comes to shooting and melee, kitting them out as barebones duelist models will go a fair distance towards keeping our melee potential as high as it can, without locking the unit into only a short range unit that people will skirt around while plinking outside of its max range,

Now Sword Brethren are basically an auto-include since they're currently free. Now while that may change in the future, load out for these guys will still be important now. With access to the Sergeant wargear list they have a fair number of toys but I want to talk about some personal recommendations:

Pistols should basically come down to Plasma or Grav. Grav works best in metas with a lot of vehicles, fortifications and power armour/terminator armour while Plasma works well just about everywhere now. Plus plasma pistols are eight points cheaper than they used to be, making a screaming deal for what they do now. Points will determine which is right for you, but when it comes to those little death dealers, the bolt pistol just doesn't hold up.

Alternatively combi-weapons are more viable than before and make for a strong way for you to bring the hurt. Play in an area with a lot of hordes and need extra flamers? Combi all day. Want a second melta, or plasma gun? Hello combi. Need grav but want extra bolter shots for weaker save models? Combi it is. Basically this is how you fit two special weapons into your Crusader Squads, and with the change to pistols and melee attacks, you're not losing melee damage as much as an additional shooting attack if you're locked in. Pistols will be cheaper for pretty much all your options, but needs and preferences will be key here. Don't be afraid of spending a few more points for something since nothing we take can keep us from charging, and will only improve our overall abilites.

Now melee weapons are always a big question. Swords are basically as cheap as chips, have -3 AP and do 1 damage. They don't increase the model's strength though and while they can force more wounds, they do only 1 wound at a time (a problem shared by all basic melee weapons). Axes make us stronger by +1, but drop to -2 AP meaning a few more saves will slip through. Maces give us the best strength buff at +2 while dropping to a -1 AP.

Basically, what do you play against the most in the game? Choose your options based that, or consider that there are other options:

Lighting Claws are Power Swords that re-roll wounds and give an extra attack in melee when paired. Not bad, but peraps we need to look at somthing with more oomph. Like the Power Fist. At double strength, -3 AP and D3 in exchange of a -1 to hit damage the classic fist has finally seen some love. Quite the option when paired with the synergy of a Captain Marshal, Helbreatch or Grimaldus where the rerolls can push the odds more ink your favor.

But what if you expect to fight a lot of big things and need to do more consistent damage when you deal wounds? Look no further than the Thunder Hammer. Available to a Sword Brother via the Sergeant Wargear for only a couple points more than a Power Fist this weapon is everything a Power Fist is, but at 3 Damage. This means that the humble Sword Brethren is capable of dealing out up to 6 wounds a turn more consistently than the Power Fist. Frankly this is my go to choice for a unit option if I have the points. Horus Heresy style hammers are just icing on the cake in my book as well.

Now, with a fully loaded squad* the question of how to field them comes to mind. Let me help make that answer clear: put them in a transport. MSUs love the extra firepower support of a Razorback, and larger squads can take a budget Rhino, or the Death Blossom powered Land Raider Crusader (now only in Heavy Support slot versions until further notice). 

The Rhino is definitely the best option for a Crusader Squad on a tight budget. Depending squad size the vehicle can house your Characters for extra protection, or act as a mobile shield to keep them from being as easy to target. While the firepower they bring isn't brag worthy, with them now moving 12" until they lost half of their wounds makes them better at ferrying things across the board, the key to usage of the Rhino is saturation: the more ou have, the higher your results are that things will get across the board. As a budget option to the Razorback, MSU Crusader squads can double up per transport, decreasing the number of units you place at deployment (as a transport plus transported units is a single placement), while also cutting down how many tanks you need to own to get your army moving.

For those who favor quality over quantity and want a tank that can beat up other tanks the LRC is the only real way to go. With Hurrican Bolters being Rapid Fire 6 each, the LRC is a proverbial death blossom on the table, even before adding in the Assault Cannon or the Multi-Melta.

Bascially if you don't want to build Rhinos or want to run the Black Templar version of a pimpmobile, take an LRC. In larger games, take two. Don,t expect to take too many since each on is a Scrooge McDuck's moneybin sized pile of points, but expect great things from them, or your opponent to point enough lascannons at it turn one to leave scorch marks on the table.

Now to support the Crusader squad we have characters, and while Helbretch and his reroll all misses is great (as is his bonus to strength on the charge) and Grimaldus helping much the same, generic Marshals and Castellans (aka Primaris LTs) will definitely have a place in your army at lower points levels. While they don't reroll all hits, generate extra attacks or give you a strength bonus,  they still support an army nicely thanks to rules like Rites of Battle.

Chaplains are your other source of synergy, and while the generic ones lack Grimaldus' level of zeal, they still do a fair job supporting your unit.

In fact, the only one who doesn't buff our Crusaders is the Emperor,s Champion. Though since he is to be aimed at the keyword monster and/or character models you want dead, then his lack of synergy isn't important.

tl;dr: 1. Crusader squads basically look to be best run with a mix of melee and ranged options to better capitalize on doing as many casualties a turn and prevent enemy units from escaping unscathed from our threat bubbles. 

2. Vehicles are important for protecting your guys but you can share so MSUs can mitigate the investment.

3. Synergy from characters is not only awesome, but manditory to making the army run well. And while the named characters bring it the best, the generic choices aren't bad choices either.

*Results may vary. See your nearest Crusade for details.

The absence of faith is the mark of the weak.
The absence of faith is the mark of the heretic.
The absence of faith is the mark of damnation.

- extract from "The Stern Codex"
 
   
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 Coyote81 wrote:
What are people's thoughts on double heavy flamer land speeders for 114. I know a twin Heavy Flamer Razorback is only 99pts, but those razorbacks don't move 16" and fly. A unit of 3 or these can move 20" +D6 if they advanced, and fire their heavy flamers.


It's definitely good, especially against hordes and MSU. It will be a point-investment though. I guess that is what I am liking about 8th. Points tend to model performance more accurately.
   
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Been Around the Block




is it ok to have your neo's on 32mm bases?
   
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





Southern California, USA

How are Ven Dreads and Vangaurd Marines looking this edition?

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Emperor's Children: 2000
Bolt Action Soviets: ~2000 pts
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
WMH CoC: 40 points (30 fully painted!)
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
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Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

drok55555 wrote:
is it ok to have your neo's on 32mm bases?

Probably. Scouts are still in their old 5th edition boxes so it's hard to say for sure, but I frankly don't see an issue with it,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
How are Ven Dreads and Vangaurd Marines looking this edition?

Ididn't try Vanguard Vets out yet, and sadly my Ven Dread died turn one to some unlucky damage rolls, but the latter definitely seems solid on paper. With a 6+ to ignore wounds suffered he has potential to hang out longer than a regular Dread, and he's got a solid statline.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 20:49:15


The absence of faith is the mark of the weak.
The absence of faith is the mark of the heretic.
The absence of faith is the mark of damnation.

- extract from "The Stern Codex"
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





One thing that jumped out at me right away was using ironclad dreads as an escort for Vulkan. That or stick him with meltagun command squad+apothecary in a HF razorback.

World Eaters ~a bunch now Hive Fleet Anphellion ~ 10k  
   
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Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

Characters can,t do anything from inside a transport without bespoke rules like the Chimera,s command vehicle rule that allows Officers to issue orders from their vehicle.

So yeah, Vulkan might be safer in a ank, but he won't be buffing the army from there.

The absence of faith is the mark of the weak.
The absence of faith is the mark of the heretic.
The absence of faith is the mark of damnation.

- extract from "The Stern Codex"
 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine






BrianDavion wrote:
So guys, trying to figure out how Space Marines fair in 8th edition..


tac Marines are still restricted to 10 man squds if they want the heavy weapon, give the changes to heavy weapons do people see 10 man tac squads having a use? or are we still sticking with 5 man squads for maximum impact? (or are intercessors a better deal to the point where we should be abandoning our old tac squads for the new hotness?)



You can always opt to take a 5 man tact squad with a heavy weapon if you wanted, no need for 10.


Other thoughts:
-I don't see a use for Missile Launchers unless you don't have very many heavy weapons and want to stay flexible. Otherwise just take lascannons, plasma cannons and heavy bolters. In Dev squads that are hanging back, I think having 1 plasma cannon is a must since you can choose to use the Signum ability and reroll a 1 (supercharged for days).
-I can see multi-meltas being decent in closer range, but kindof meh compared to a lascannon in stats/range/price.

Question:
Do people see flamers on tact squads being viable? I'm planning on running one 5 man tactical squad with a flamer & combi-flamer ahead of my plasma squad & heavy bolter squad, as a way to deter charges, overwatch if they do, and then fall back while the gun line blasts the unit that had charged. But I'm feeling a little put-off by the 8'' range on flamers... If they charge from 9'' I don't get overwatch and squad is useless.
   
 
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