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Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.


It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

I forgot about the Grav, my bad.

However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.

Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.

Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.

Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.

And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.

Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.



Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.

24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4


But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.

RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97


And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.87----------4.4------------3.3----------2.9

If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:

Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.

The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.

So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.

And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.

Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 23:52:11


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.


It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.

As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.

I forgot about the Grav, my bad.

However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.

Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.

Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.

Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.

And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.

Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.



Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.

24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4


But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.

RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97


And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)

RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.87----------4.4------------3.3----------2.9

If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:

Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.

The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.

So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.

And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.

Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.



1. You only overcharge when there's going to be rerolls though. That's the complaint with Plasma Weapons at the moment that you get rerolls galore and that Overcharge isn't dangerous and a double edge sword like it's meant to be. Kinda like how nobody took Plasma in 6th/7th except in SUPER fringe cases. Like, so fringe they might as well not have existed.
If you say you can do rerolls, I can say I get to use the Masterful Marksmanship Strategem. Which is another thing to actually point out. That would make the Bolters wound GEQ on 2+, MEQ/TEQ on 3+, and the REQ on a 4+. Math on that? I don't really feel like doing the math, but that's 6.6 against MEQ in Rapid Fire range and 4.7 (that's a whopping 1 Marine dead in the first scenario, though the non-Rapid Fire is less impressive). Against GEQ that's 10.2 dead in Rapid Fire range (which is a whole dead Infantry Squad that can't do screening now), and that's 7 dead outside Rapid Fire (which is now only 2 dudes left to protect the one good weapon. If you wanna take morale into account you can, but typically morale is gonna be ignored in some manner). Against REQ you're dealing 5.5 wounds in Rapid Fire range (which is just over half the wounds on a Razorback, which means that BS3+ is a mere 4+ now). Only 3 outside Rapid Fire, but oh well.
Tactical Marines get a Strategem from the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics (which mitigates the Overcharge danger), except it's redundant once you have rerolls. That makes it much less useful and way too specific.

2. I actually like Devastators, but they don't work as well as Grav Cannon delivery systems (as Pods are super expensive and still not good even after the price cut, and infiltration with Raven Guard or Lias should be used on units that are going to be more dangerous when they land). Lascannons are a different story there. 2 Lascannons and a Cherub is a perfect objective camper.

3. What you forget is Marines don't last long in the first place, so trying to pretend they do is a failing prospect. So is two less models in the squad a big deal anyway? The answer is no. If you hit the enemy hard enough, enemies won't kill you fast enough. That's why you see the more successful Marine lists using either Alpha Strike tactics, or focusing on the more durable models in the army (most of which aren't even Marine models). The mathematical advantage by killing a few models more goes a long way to making sure their units can't hold objectives (yeah Tactical Marines have Objective Secured, but you're going to be outnumbered by their Troops anyway, especially after just a couple die and then the opponent doesn't even have to bother touching the squad again because, let's face it, they're not scary offensively).
More the point is all 8 and all 10 are going to die in a round. Dead units typically don't attack back. I'd not bother even trying to kill all the Tactical Marines anyway as, outside your casual as all hell area, they're not scary. If I need an objective, I can shift Marines.

So does it matter 15 Marines perform the same against GEQ? No. You also forget that you need to be at 8" range for the grenades to work, so...

4. And if I need Command Points, I can just pay the Scout tax (and Scouts are the superior unit anyway to Tactical Marines, so I was already using those for screening purposes and to a lesser extent offensive purposes).
The generalist will fail to the specialist. I mean, I don't even have to pay for 8 Sternguard, and I could just specialize in 2 Grav Cannons and 3 Combi-Plasmas or just go all out with 4 Grav Cannons with some Devastators. I'm bringing that loadout to a tournament for FUN as I know they will mathematically do the job. Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment, and it shows based off when they DID show up (once with Rowboat? And you guys clamor to it forgetting about Rowboat and the Razorbacks that were doing the work...). It's a non-occurrence. At least Sternguard show up once in a blue moon as a true suicide unit, which is what I'm sorta doing.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






See Tactics, Space Marines: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2100/727463.page#9750768

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 19:46:14


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Holy Necrothread, Batman. Well, kinda.

I'll respond later.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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