Oh you’d be surprised.

There was an archway deep in the Imperial dungeon. There was also various symbols carved on that archway. Two were scratched out. One was an angel.

Can you guess what they were for?

In reality it was very convenient that each primarchs landed on a planet where they were able to grow into the character they were designed to. It was just that fluff wasn’t that serious back then. Hence some of the names. But now they try to make reasons for it, it’s become a nature vs nurture kind of deal. It was so coincidental that they all landed on the appropriate planet that it would have to be by design really.

Andykp wrote:
In reality it was very convenient that each primarchs landed on a planet where they were able to grow into the character they were designed to.

I'm always a little sceptical of this, mostly because people often conflate the character of the world and the character of the Primarch.

Like, Lorgar wasn't necessarily destined to be religious. He's a being who mostly seems interested in people, and big philosophical questions, and how to organise societies. He just happened to land on a really religious world where religion was the main way of uniting people, and was found and raised by a preacher. If the 13th Primarch landed there, he might well have been the 'religious one', it's just that his religion might have been more strictly organised and concerned with productivity. And if the 18th Primarch landed there it might have been more compassionate.

Similarly, people seem to think it's 'handy' that the Khan landed on Chogoris, but who's to say that the Khan would have been concerned with speed at all had he landed on, say, Olympia or Chemos. It's just that the culture of Chogoris puts the emphasis on mounted combat and speed, and the Khan was raised in that culture. For all we know, the 'common thread' in the Khan might be his ability to observe from a distance, his tendency to choose small groups of friends, or his questioning nature. The speed was just the way that got expressed on Chogoris.

Mortarion would have had nothing to do with toxins or poisons if he hadn't landed on a world where he had to grow t be resistant to them, etc etc.

It's almost like the Primarchs are designed to excel at anything they're exposed to, and exposing them to a specific culture just makes them the paragon of that culture - so much so that after 50-80 years there it's really difficult to shape them otherwise.


.

Could have sworn they were designed. I might be miss remembering though.
Wasnt there a infant in a tank with buds sticking out his back in one of the HH novel dungeon scenes.
But it sounds like a Emperor plan. The guy that looks like a angel kills half the universe. Thats why you dont trust angels kids.

So new quote regarding Molech in the new novel "Slaves of darkness" that seems relevant.

They (the chaos gods) poured knowledge an d power into him, more then any other champion has recived, for such a vessel they have never had before. They raised him up and the gave him knowledge, insight, power and strength. They whispered he was all and more then his father was. And he (Horus) accepted the lie

In scars it's straight up said the scattering was no accident, someone even offers the khan to tell him why he was sent to Chogoris and Fulgrim to Chemos. Because that was the original "plan".

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Andykp wrote:
In reality it was very convenient that each primarchs landed on a planet where they were able to grow into the character they were designed to.

I'm always a little sceptical of this, mostly because people often conflate the character of the world and the character of the Primarch.

Like, Lorgar wasn't necessarily destined to be religious. He's a being who mostly seems interested in people, and big philosophical questions, and how to organise societies. He just happened to land on a really religious world where religion was the main way of uniting people, and was found and raised by a preacher. If the 13th Primarch landed there, he might well have been the 'religious one', it's just that his religion might have been more strictly organised and concerned with productivity. And if the 18th Primarch landed there it might have been more compassionate.

Similarly, people seem to think it's 'handy' that the Khan landed on Chogoris, but who's to say that the Khan would have been concerned with speed at all had he landed on, say, Olympia or Chemos. It's just that the culture of Chogoris puts the emphasis on mounted combat and speed, and the Khan was raised in that culture. For all we know, the 'common thread' in the Khan might be his ability to observe from a distance, his tendency to choose small groups of friends, or his questioning nature. The speed was just the way that got expressed on Chogoris.

Mortarion would have had nothing to do with toxins or poisons if he hadn't landed on a world where he had to grow t be resistant to them, etc etc.

It's almost like the Primarchs are designed to excel at anything they're exposed to, and exposing them to a specific culture just makes them the paragon of that culture - so much so that after 50-80 years there it's really difficult to shape them otherwise.


.

The white scars book states pretty much that.

A shard of Magnus tells kharn that the primarchs didn’t all end up where they were supposed to, Khan was supposed to land on chemos, Fulgrim on chogoria.

If true it’s possible that Fulgrim was intended to be found by the tyrants of chogoria and be raised by them, but I don’t know, it’s just guess work.

It does raise an interesting point however, were the primarchs All encoded with certain personality traits that suited the intended worlds and environments they grew up on, I have always been suspicious that the primarchs were stolen away by the gods, to this day I still think it was intentional that they were spread out.

Yeah , several hints across several books say that.

One of the earliest I read is TS where Ahriman recalls Magnus trying to explain how he was created and actually already concious at the time and remained in contact with E.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I say trying because none of the TS captains understood, and maybe Magnus didn't either.

 Formosa wrote:
The white scars book states pretty much that.

A shard of Magnus tells kharn that the primarchs didn’t all end up where they were supposed to, Khan was supposed to land on chemos, Fulgrim on chogoria.

Yeah, but 'supposed to' by the Emperor's design, or by Chaos's? Who's doing the supposing and who is Magnus referring to? From what I remember, the book doesn't state. There's two possibilities here:

- The Emperor intended the Primarchs to be scattered (and Khan to land on Chemos) and Chaos messed around with it, meaning Khan landed on Chogoris.
- The Emperor intended the Primarchs to grow up on Terra. Chaos scattered the Primarchs. However, something went wrong, meaning the Khan landed on Chogoris (the elder, the Emperor's influence, it happening too soon, the recent birth of Slaanesh, who knows?).

Of course, there's also a third option, that the Emperor intended to send the Primarchs out to different worlds (to learn, or to influence their development or something), but only after they were stable enough for him to have the genetic material to properly build their Legions, and Chaos screwed that all up, which would fit all the facts, but that's pure theory!

A fourth option is that Chaos co-operated enough to scatter them but after that they fell into the traditional infighting and tried enforcing their own plans. So for example Khorne could have tried sending Fulgrim to Chogoris but Slaanesh stepped in and swapped Fulgrim for Khan.

Chaos ruining itself is really a common thing when they work together.

The writers now are really trying to make the slapdash background approach in the early days of the game seem like a grand scheme. It’s not that easy really. They manage to skip past that they are all Caricatures of their real world inspirations. The only way to do that is make the scattering and character traits some kind of plan or design. I’m sure the primarchs all would of excelled in whatever society they landed in. If it was just random chances are they all would’ve ended up on uninhabitable planets and died.

That new quote from Brian is good because it reinforces the confusion. It casts doubt on anything we here in the books. (I’m presuming that the him in the quote is horus).

Andykp wrote:
The writers now are really trying to make the slapdash background approach in the early days of the game seem like a grand scheme. It’s not that easy really. They manage to skip past that they are all Caricatures of their real world inspirations. The only way to do that is make the scattering and character traits some kind of plan or design. I’m sure the primarchs all would of excelled in whatever society they landed in. If it was just random chances are they all would’ve ended up on uninhabitable planets and died.

That new quote from Brian is good because it reinforces the confusion. It casts doubt on anything we here in the books. (I’m presuming that the him in the quote is horus).

it is, I edited for clarity. One of the central themes of the book is that Horus THINKS he's mastered the warp and bent it to his will, but he HASN'T and instead he's basicly being manipulated and played

BrianDavion wrote:
it is, I edited for clarity. One of the central themes of the book is that Horus THINKS he's mastered the warp and bent it to his will, but he HASN'T and instead he's basicly being manipulated and played

To be honest, that is always how I interpreted VS but then I remember the old Bill King story which makes it clear that Horus was fooled. That being in mind probably skewed my reading of VS, even if that was the writer's intention.

 Karhedron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
it is, I edited for clarity. One of the central themes of the book is that Horus THINKS he's mastered the warp and bent it to his will, but he HASN'T and instead he's basicly being manipulated and played

To be honest, that is always how I interpreted VS but then I remember the old Bill King story which makes it clear that Horus was fooled. That being in mind probably skewed my reading of VS, even if that was the writer's intention.

I think most people interpreted it that way, but not all

I’m pretty sure the book black legion calls Horus “the great sacrifice” or something along those lines, but Deamons gonna Deamon so take it for what it is.

I don’t think anyone can really master chaos. I’ve been rereading the old realm of chaos books and their descriptions of chaos is really inspiring. And they have made me want to start a startchild cult lead by a Sensei.

Andykp wrote:
I don’t think anyone can really master chaos. I’ve been rereading the old realm of chaos books and their descriptions of chaos is really inspiring. And they have made me want to start a startchild cult lead by a Sensei.

Just wait until GW's next big lore advancement. There's another big Warp Rift and out of it comes the greatest servant of Chaos to ever exist. Archaon on his weird horse.

Andykp wrote:
I don’t think anyone can really master chaos. I’ve been rereading the old realm of chaos books and their descriptions of chaos is really inspiring. And they have made me want to start a startchild cult lead by a Sensei.

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

The circumstantial evidence about the scattering of the Primarchs all points to the Emperor's plan not working out in one way or another. He searches for a long time for them (over a century IIRC?) and there are references to him investigating any possible rumour and sometimes ending up on a wild goose chase. That doesn't seem to suggest it was his plan to have certain Primarchs on certain planets. We also have the fact there are facilities created for them to apparently live as one big brotherhood on Terra.

A lot of this is older fluff, though, so maybe Black Library are trying to make it All Part Of The Plan(tm) with the newer fluff? I'm not sure that really stacks up in any way but the most likely possibility seems to be Chaos had its own plans for the Primarchs, which is why they all ended up on inhabited worlds. In most cases they grew up on some pretty crappy planets too, lending some credence to the theory that it was planned in some way as a way to prepare them for what would come later.

The naivety of the traitor legions and particularly the Primarchs is, I think, fairly obvious to everyone (all but one, perhaps?) and that goes double for Horus. It's kind of Horus's defining characteristic as the tragic figure at the heart of the Heresy. If he fully understood what he was doing his character would, frankly, be pretty dull and stupid. You only need to look at Magnus or the way the entire Death Guard legion were essentially duped into becoming servants of Nurgle to see how Chaos manipulated the legions.

I dunno there's some evidance both ways really. the space wolves are proably the strongest, it seems remarkably conveniant Russ ended up on the ONE planet in the galaxy that seems compatable with SW geneseed.

there are a couple of theories that could answer the question..

1: The scattering was in fact all according to the emperor's plan and chaos' interferance was, despite chaos' claims actually pretty minimal
2: Chaos and the emperor where working together to scatter it.
3: The Emperor had picked out worlds for the Primarchs to inhabit but intended to raise them himself, chaos spread them early thus ensuring the emperor could not create the stable foundation he intended to initally.
4: the scattering was intentional but chaos interfered and subtly altered things Just eneugh to sabotoge the emperor, such as ensuring Lorgar ended up in a chaos cult, and that Angron was ruined.
5: the emperor is really Tzeetch.. everything is going according to plan

The Emperor didn’t seem to try and stop the scattering when it happened. He walked off didn’t He. Probably didn’t see the point in trying to use His powers to block it when all 4 Chaos Gods were taking part. Most logically His gene seed work was almost done and He didn’t need the Primarchs to kick off the crusade.

 Formosa wrote:
I’m pretty sure the book black legion calls Horus “the great sacrifice” or something along those lines, but Deamons gonna Deamon so take it for what it is.

In Talon of Horus, he's referred to by a daemon as "the Sacrificial King" and IIRC it's pretty heavily implied that the Chaos Gods always intended for him to lose.

In the same book, Khayon describes Horus' soul as having been devoured by the Emperor, rather than merely destroyed. Which makes me wonder if it wasn't the physical damage inflicted by Horus that crippled the Emperor and doomed him to eternity in the Golden Throne, but rather some psychic poison inserted into Horus' soul by the Chaos Gods? So he wasn't the 'Champion' of the Gods, but more like a piece of poisoned bait.

I feel like a good plan involves trade-offs, going for the least worst outcome rather than the best, but you kinda want to be ready just in case you get a windfall. While what you end up with may be truly random, if you cover the best, worst, and most likely scenarios you're pretty well covered. That's a simple explanation for the scattering of the Primarchs and the preparations to have them raised on Terra.

There's another notion, to do with two-level bargaining, whereby the Emperor needs to unite a fractious and chaotic Humanity to realise his goals, but at the same time play that off against a fractious and Chaotic Dark Pantheon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’m pretty sure the book black legion calls Horus “the great sacrifice” or something along those lines, but Deamons gonna Deamon so take it for what it is.

In Talon of Horus, he's referred to by a daemon as "the Sacrificial King" and IIRC it's pretty heavily implied that the Chaos Gods always intended for him to lose.

In the same book, Khayon describes Horus' soul as having been devoured by the Emperor, rather than merely destroyed. Which makes me wonder if it wasn't the physical damage inflicted by Horus that crippled the Emperor and doomed him to eternity in the Golden Throne, but rather some psychic poison inserted into Horus' soul by the Chaos Gods? So he wasn't the 'Champion' of the Gods, but more like a piece of poisoned bait.

Khayon isn't the most reliable of narrators. He is, after all, a dupe of the Dark Powers. For example, he believes that the Warp reflects Humanity and Humanity alone, and believes his familiars to be friends and partners rather than parasites. But as the Emperor points out in Master of Mankind, the ability of daemons to appear as your worst nightmare (or to speak your language or whatever) is a simple psychic trick of getting people to perceive what they want to see. The Black Legion needs to think of Horus as being both completely dead, and good riddance, to be Abbadon's personal army.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’m pretty sure the book black legion calls Horus “the great sacrifice” or something along those lines, but Deamons gonna Deamon so take it for what it is.

In Talon of Horus, he's referred to by a daemon as "the Sacrificial King" and IIRC it's pretty heavily implied that the Chaos Gods always intended for him to lose.

In the same book, Khayon describes Horus' soul as having been devoured by the Emperor, rather than merely destroyed. Which makes me wonder if it wasn't the physical damage inflicted by Horus that crippled the Emperor and doomed him to eternity in the Golden Throne, but rather some psychic poison inserted into Horus' soul by the Chaos Gods? So he wasn't the 'Champion' of the Gods, but more like a piece of poisoned bait.

So you’re suggesting that perhaps the poison in the soul of Horus was consumed by The Emperor (in true 1000 souls a day Emperor fashion) and that said poison is actually the reason for The Emperor not being able to regenerate. A sort of psychic fulgerite.

That is fascinating.

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno there's some evidance both ways really. the space wolves are proably the strongest, it seems remarkably conveniant Russ ended up on the ONE planet in the galaxy that seems compatable with SW geneseed.

Have GW ever bothered explaining why that happened? It's something that had to develop after the Great Crusade started and the Heresy seems the logical time but they never explain it.

No, the link between Russ, Fenris and the rest of the Legion has been hinted at but never properly explained or explored.

I just lump it in the same boat as "There are no wolves on Fenris!"

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t think anyone can really master chaos. I’ve been rereading the old realm of chaos books and their descriptions of chaos is really inspiring. And they have made me want to start a startchild cult lead by a Sensei.

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

Slave to darkness is what drew me into 40k properly after messing about for a while. It was just so bonkers and full of character. As a teenager I did a book review of it at school and the stoners in the class were blown away by the idea of chaos. Such a geek thing to do looking back on it.

And PM. Isn’t abandon archaon really.?????

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

Slave to darkness is what drew me into 40k properly after messing about for a while. It was just so bonkers and full of character. As a teenager I did a book review of it at school and the stoners in the class were blown away by the idea of chaos. Such a geek thing to do looking back on it.

Not that Slaves to Darkness, the new one!

 Karhedron wrote:

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

Slave to darkness is what drew me into 40k properly after messing about for a while. It was just so bonkers and full of character. As a teenager I did a book review of it at school and the stoners in the class were blown away by the idea of chaos. Such a geek thing to do looking back on it.

Not that Slaves to Darkness, the new one!

Oooooh. I see. I’ll give that one a read. It’s got a lot to live up to though.

Andykp wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

Slave to darkness is what drew me into 40k properly after messing about for a while. It was just so bonkers and full of character. As a teenager I did a book review of it at school and the stoners in the class were blown away by the idea of chaos. Such a geek thing to do looking back on it.

Not that Slaves to Darkness, the new one!

Oooooh. I see. I’ll give that one a read. It’s got a lot to live up to though.

It's not the best HH novel I've read, but it's not too bad at all, and the themes in it are ones that IMHO the HH books have been needing to tackle head on for awhile.

I've begun reading it, and it sort of hits the same themes as what I hear from the original slaves to darkness.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t think anyone can really master chaos. I’ve been rereading the old realm of chaos books and their descriptions of chaos is really inspiring. And they have made me want to start a startchild cult lead by a Sensei.

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

Slave to darkness is what drew me into 40k properly after messing about for a while. It was just so bonkers and full of character. As a teenager I did a book review of it at school and the stoners in the class were blown away by the idea of chaos. Such a geek thing to do looking back on it.

And PM. Isn’t abandon archaon really.?????

Abbadon wishes he could have a fraction of Archaons awesome.

pm713 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t think anyone can really master chaos. I’ve been rereading the old realm of chaos books and their descriptions of chaos is really inspiring. And they have made me want to start a startchild cult lead by a Sensei.

you can't. Slaves to Darkness is a MUST READ on this front, it really hammers home how UTTERLY NAIVE the traitor primarchs where. ESPECIALLY Horus,

Slave to darkness is what drew me into 40k properly after messing about for a while. It was just so bonkers and full of character. As a teenager I did a book review of it at school and the stoners in the class were blown away by the idea of chaos. Such a geek thing to do looking back on it.

And PM. Isn’t abandon archaon really.?????

Abbadon wishes he could have a fraction of Archaons awesome.

Archoan always seemed to me to be chosen as opposed to thinking he had bettered them. He was more nails because he knew they all had his back as opposed to trying to use them.

Archaon turned from being a Sigmarite priest to full-on-chaos due to reading some old text. What would that have been?

 ph34r wrote:
Archaon turned from being a Sigmarite priest to full-on-chaos due to reading some old text. What would that have been?

he read an advanced draft of end times obviously

Pretty much: He read you're gna destroy the world, so he got really angry and did just that to spite the gods. at least that's how I understood it.

 Earth127 wrote:
Pretty much: He read you're gna destroy the world, so he got really angry and did just that to spite the gods. at least that's how I understood it.

He read who was gonna destroy the world, mortals? Sigmar? Chaos?

Archaon. He was a knight who found a prophecy Archaon was gna destroy the world. Then he found the second part he , Diederick, would be Archaon. So he threw a hissy fit, and became Archaon.

The ultimate self-fullfilling prophecy.

 Earth127 wrote:
Archaon. He was a knight who found a prophecy Archaon was gna destroy the world. Then he found the second part he , Diederick, would be Archaon. So he threw a hissy fit, and became Archaon.

The ultimate self-fullfilling prophecy.

yeah see, fi I discovered a prophey I'd destroy everything I knew and loved and took it seriously, I'd proably kill myself and order my body cremated immediatly. (to prevent a "rise as undead" situation)