Its pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to gain more power and create the Primarch's, I wonder how he hasn't fallen to chaos (I know he's the melon-fething Emperor) but even he said to Magnus that you can't deal with the powers of the warp and stay whole, I wonder what he lost, or maybe he was saying what normal mortals lose to chaos. I think that maybe he lost the ability to reincarnate. Maybe he retains autonomy but when he 'really' dies, Drach'nyen will absorb him, keeping him prisoner so he can't reincarnate like a faustian bargain.
The deal with Chaos is the great unsolved mystery on the Heresy - everything else is staring right at you (including the whole ‘why was he a gak dad’ thing).
It could also be two different deals - one before creating the Primarchs and one at Molech halfway through the crusade - or they could be the same thing because of timely-wimey warp shenanigans.
We know that, whatever the deal WAS, he was planning to betray chaos and renege on it - that’s the reason for the plans to limit human interaction with the warp via anti-psyker controls and the webway.
In theory, the emperor’s original plan was:
- get whatever knowledge or power he needed by a deal with chaos
- use some of that power to create totally loyal generals who can do the conquering bit double quick
- as soon as the warp storms drop, the generals go out and conquer the galaxy, making religion and psychic powers illegal and starving chaos from retaliating once they realise his betrayal
- at the same time, the Emperor does the web way stuff using that previously nabbed power
- within a short time, chaos is starved of belief, the webway is under human control, and humanity can slowly and carefully mature into a psychic race without being eaten by daemons (his aims as per ‘The Sigillite’).
In that reality, we still have 20 different Primarchs, but they all get raised on Terra much like the Custodes are - more like peers or serious colleagues than a father/son relationship (again, like the Custodes) and with way more stable psyches!
In reality, the big issue here is Chaos Scattering the Primarchs - this not only means the emperor has to spend ages going and finding them (giving chaos more time to react against the webway plans), it also means that some are not really functioning as well as they could be (Antron, Lorgar, Curze) and, biggest of all, they all get raised in non-imperial human cultures who have various disagreements with how their ‘father’ should be, which leads to various resentments exploited by Chaos. As far as the emperor is concerned, the Primarchs and legions are jus tools, like the thunder warriors were.
But yeah, what the actual deal was is the important thing.
By Molech, chaos presumably already know that the Imperial truth is in effect, so it’s unlikely he stole all the power he needed then,
I like the idea that the emperor was powerful enough to create the Primarchs using the stuff of the Warp ANYWAY and that and the imperial truth made chaos well aware that they were fethed. Molech could then be a bargain to relent on chaos in return for the time, experience and power the emperor needed to be powerful enough to breach the webway (after all, that’s what Horus gets at moloch - thousand of years of experience). Maybe chaos thought he wanted to use that power to become a chais god himself, but instead he uses it to save humanity from the warp?
pm713 wrote: I think he lost most of his critical thinking. That explains most of what he did after making the Primarchs
lol
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ArbitorIan wrote: The deal with Chaos is the great unsolved mystery on the Heresy - everything else is staring right at you (including the whole ‘why was he a gak dad’ thing).
It could also be two different deals - one before creating the Primarchs and one at Molech halfway through the crusade - or they could be the same thing because of timely-wimey warp shenanigans.
We know that, whatever the deal WAS, he was planning to betray chaos and renege on it - that’s the reason for the plans to limit human interaction with the warp via anti-psyker controls and the webway.
In theory, the emperor’s original plan was:
- get whatever knowledge or power he needed by a deal with chaos
- use some of that power to create totally loyal generals who can do the conquering bit double quick
- as soon as the warp storms drop, the generals go out and conquer the galaxy, making religion and psychic powers illegal and starving chaos from retaliating once they realise his betrayal
- at the same time, the Emperor does the web way stuff using that previously nabbed power
- within a short time, chaos is starved of belief, the webway is under human control, and humanity can slowly and carefully mature into a psychic race without being eaten by daemons (his aims as per ‘The Sigillite’).
In that reality, we still have 20 different Primarchs, but they all get raised on Terra much like the Custodes are - more like peers or serious colleagues than a father/son relationship (again, like the Custodes) and with way more stable psyches!
In reality, the big issue here is Chaos Scattering the Primarchs - this not only means the emperor has to spend ages going and finding them (giving chaos more time to react against the webway plans), it also means that some are not really functioning as well as they could be (Antron, Lorgar, Curze) and, biggest of all, they all get raised in non-imperial human cultures who have various disagreements with how their ‘father’ should be, which leads to various resentments exploited by Chaos. As far as the emperor is concerned, the Primarchs and legions are jus tools, like the thunder warriors were.
But yeah, what the actual deal was is the important thing.
By Molech, chaos presumably already know that the Imperial truth is in effect, so it’s unlikely he stole all the power he needed then,
I like the idea that the emperor was powerful enough to create the Primarchs using the stuff of the Warp ANYWAY and that and the imperial truth made chaos well aware that they were fethed. Molech could then be a bargain to relent on chaos in return for the time, experience and power the emperor needed to be powerful enough to breach the webway (after all, that’s what Horus gets at moloch - thousand of years of experience). Maybe chaos thought he wanted to use that power to become a chais god himself, but instead he uses it to save humanity from the warp?
The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.
or thats what Horus says, presumably chaos told him that so we can't take that as gospel. I'm honestly half expecting the HH series to end with a suprise revelation that suggests there are things at work here we didn't know about.
BrianDavion wrote: or thats what Horus says, presumably chaos told him that so we can't take that as gospel. I'm honestly half expecting the HH series to end with a suprise revelation that suggests there are things at work here we didn't know about.
It's not what Horus said, its what Alivia Surka said that's important. She traveled to Molech with the Emperor and other perpetuals and took the gateway by force and after it, it was her job to seal the place. The gateway to the Warp provides power, the same power that Horus took, so we know the Emperor did make the deal and we know what he got out of it. All Horus said was that he bargained with the forces rather than took the power by force:
"Horus smiled at the extra vowel at the end of the honorific. A natural development, given the power that now filled him. Power that had almost cost him his life to obtain. Not that to look at him anyone would know that. The many hurts he had suffered to win Molech had healed years ago it seemed. It was hard to be sure. His sons told him he’d only been gone moments, how could he tell them different? Molech was a far distant memory to Horus now. He’d fought wars, slain monsters and defied gods in those moments. He’d wrested the power of those same gods at the heads of vast armies of daemons. He’d fought in battles that would rage unchecked for all eternity. He’d won a thousand kingdoms within the empyrean, billions of vassals to do with as he pleased, but he’d refused it. Every pleasure and prize was his for the taking, but he’d denied them all. He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god. ‘Sire, what are your orders?’ said Ezekyle. Horus stared at the veil of stars, as though he could see all the way from Molech to Terra. He extended a clawed hand, as though already cupping the precious bauble of humanity’s cradle. ‘I am coming for you, father,’ said Horus. "
Plus was talking to himself, why would you need to take his word for it, why would he be lying to himself. (and lied to about getting powers not being a god as people keep mistaking)
The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.
When the emperor entered and came out WAY more powerful, it was mid-crusade - as we know from the same book that some Primarchs were present (and possibly had their memories altered after the fact)
I think there's a mix of Horus being lied to as well. He thinks his power is completely his own but Chaos doesn't do that. He might have a longer leash than other servants but he's still on a leash.
I think there's a mix of Horus being lied to as well. He thinks his power is completely his own but Chaos doesn't do that. He might have a longer leash than other servants but he's still on a leash.
He wasn't lied to about getting powers which is the point.
The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.
When the emperor entered and came out WAY more powerful, it was mid-crusade - as we know from the same book that some Primarchs were present (and possibly had their memories altered after the fact)
No it wasn't, it was the dark age of technology, then he went again a century before the Heresy to fortify the place so no one would ever be able to enter the gateway.
"Lupercal walked in a circle, jabbing a fist into his palm with every sentence. ‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here in humble guise and found the gateway to
a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the
mysteries of creation.’ Horus was radiant as he spoke, as though he had already ascended to a divine plane of reality. ‘But the Emperor had no intention of honouring His debt to the gods. He turned on them, taking their gifts and blending them with His genecraft to give birth to demigods. The Emperor condemns the warp as unnatural, but only so no other dares wield it. The blood of the immaterial realm flows in my veins. It flows in all our veins, for as I am the Emperor’s son, you are the Sons of Horus, and the secret of our genesis was unlocked upon Molech. The gateway to that power is in Lupercalia, far beneath the mountain rock. Sealed away from the light by a jealous god who knew that someday one of His sons would seek to surpass His deeds.’ And finally Aximand understood why they had come here, why they had expended such resources and defied all military logic to follow in the footsteps of a god. This would be the moment they rose to challenge the Emperor with the very weapons He had kept for
Himself. This was to be the apotheosis of them all." The great diaspora means the dark age of technology
Seems really stupid to wait centuries to fortify something important especially in a time when anyone could wander in.
As a point what makes you think the Emperor isn't "corrupted" in a sense? Someone falls to Khorne by getting absorbed by the joy of battle and rage which is how Khorne corrupts.
The Emperor is a Chaos God in a way. He comes from a mass sacrifice to battle Chaos so just as Khorne lives for and off bloodshed the Emperor lives by and for battling Chaos. Which would make him incorruptible to the other gods in the Warp as they don't change like that.
pm713 wrote: Seems really stupid to wait centuries to fortify something important especially in a time when anyone could wander in.
As a point what makes you think the Emperor isn't "corrupted" in a sense? Someone falls to Khorne by getting absorbed by the joy of battle and rage which is how Khorne corrupts.
The Emperor is a Chaos God in a way. He comes from a mass sacrifice to battle Chaos so just as Khorne lives for and off bloodshed the Emperor lives by and for battling Chaos. Which would make him incorruptible to the other gods in the Warp as they don't change like that.
It's a nice theory anyway.
He did fortify it, but then the age of strife happened... The gateway was still sealed, however, but after the age of strife he needed to obviously fortify it again. It was millenniums after not centuries. I didn't say he wasn't corrupted, but he'd act more chaosy if he was, which is why I think he just lost something, because he did betray the gods by not giving them the Primarchs but then again Magnus was able to defy chaos for a while, maybe the Emperor will one day get spiky armour.
I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.
Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at least the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.
w1zard wrote: I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.
Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at ;east the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.
There is some cannon continuity errors some say he made a pact, the vengeful spirit version he stole the powers.
w1zard wrote: I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.
Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at ;east the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.
There is some cannon continuity errors some say he made a pact, the vengeful spirit version he stole the powers.
How reliable are the sources that say he made a pact with chaos? Could they be simply misunderstanding or lying that the emperor stole these powers?
w1zard wrote: I was always under the impression that the Emperor's "deal" with chaos was him just stealing powers / knowledge from them.
Only two beings have ever gotten through Tzeentch's crystal maze, and one of them was strongly hinted to be the Emperor, or at ;east the psychic projection of the Emperor. Considering the reward for getting through Tzeentch's maze is a boon from the Changer of Ways himself, I can definitely see this being the case.
There is some cannon continuity errors some say he made a pact, the vengeful spirit version he stole the powers.
How reliable are the sources that say he made a pact with chaos? Could they be simply misunderstanding or lying that the emperor stole these powers?
The first heretic:
"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees. ‘Our father – all of our fathers – are the spawn of ancient blood rituals and forbidden science.’
"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees. ‘Our father – all of our fathers – are the spawn of ancient blood rituals and forbidden science.’
Like I said, how are we so sure he is telling the truth? He could be telling lies just to stir the pot, or he could be telling the truth from his point of view but the person who told him lied to him. A Word Bearer chaplain is pretty low on my list of credibility when it comes to the emperor.
"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees. ‘Our father – all of our fathers – are the spawn of ancient blood rituals and forbidden science.’
Like I said, how are we so sure he is telling the truth? He could be telling lies just to stir the pot, or he could be telling the truth from his point of view but the person who told him lied to him. A Word Bearer chaplain is pretty low on my list of credibility when it comes to the emperor.
In this point Erebus could be telling a lie but the original point that the Emperor took powers from the same place on Molech is definitely not a lie. The point of a bargain vs taking the power is just the point I was making to your original point that you thought that the Emperor only stole the power rather than bargained for them, as there are more versions of that in the lore. That the Emperor went to Molech to get powers is the absolute, though what he got and how he got the powers isn't fact because the Emperor has never said what he got from Molech but its pretty obvious that he got powers to make the Primarch's.
My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"
what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"
what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.
There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"
what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.
There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.
A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.
It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"
what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.
There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.
A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.
It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.
LOL yeah the Emperor just went lightyears across the galaxy in a one way ship with 6 perpetuals and went in to play jenga with the Chaos gods, then left Sureka there to guard it and returned with the great crusade erased the minds of the population and left a heavily fortified galaxy there. The gateway leads to the warp where Chaos bestows power on people, what on earth could he have been doing there...
Formosa wrote: A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.
It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.
Or not a deal at all... the emperor could have tangled with the chaos gods directly and stole the knowledge somehow.
Formosa wrote: A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.
It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.
Or not a deal at all... the emperor could have tangled with the chaos gods directly and stole the knowledge somehow.
Exactly what the novel said, he broke in and took power to make the Primarchs.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"
what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.
There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.
A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.
It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.
LOL yeah the Emperor just went lightyears across the galaxy in a one way ship with 6 perpetuals and went in to play jenga with the Chaos gods, then left Sureka there to guard it and returned with the great crusade erased the minds of the population and left a heavily fortified galaxy there. The gateway leads to the warp where Chaos bestows power on people, what on earth could he have been doing there...
It’s a portal to the realms of the chaos gods, not some run of the mill portal that can be opened but a stable fixed position that allows two way access, why was it so heavily fortified and not just closed? Only the emperor knows, perhaps he had a plan on returning some day, we will never know, All we have is the conjecture of one remaining perpetual that he based there and we don’t know if he even told her why he was there (very unlikely given his nature), so yep, we don’t know the nature of the deal he made.
Also I doubt it was for power, if what you say is correct then what would be the point, he had already made the primarchs, so why return to molech to gain more from the gods he had already betrayed, it doesn’t add up.
You are attempting to gleam intent by filling in the gaps yourself with little to no actual background information to support your claims.
Anyway at the end of the day we don't KNOW. we can make some guesses, but people need to stop taking every single flipping statement anyone makes in the HH series as "THE UNMITIGATED TRUTH" and use some critical thinking regarding the sources. Horus belives the Emperor entered the warp on Molech, and stole power from the Chaos gods. He belives this because thats what he's been told. the truth? We can't yet be 100% certain.
Andykp wrote: My take on it,and I come from a stand point that I hope they don’t answer all the questions and leave the mystery, is that for all we know the emperor is already paying the price. He isn’t exactly living the good life. Billions of souls sacrificed to him constantly just to sustain him, empire in ruins. All pretty grim for someone who didn’t want to be a god.
Also I like to think that each bit from different books tells the story with a bias depending on the book. So I wouldn’t trust any of it as gospel.
Him being interred on the golden throne happened from external circumstances, though and him needed psykers is because he isn't strong enough to power and direct the astronomicon, and also to feed his physical body, so I would;t say that is a price for the bargain. There were no bias' from the books, the first one could have been bias but in the vengeful spirit novel the perpetual Alinia Sureka is a non-biased third party who was a servant of the Emperor and she corroborates the story of the Emperor, she even died trying to seal it for good, so she wouldn't have any reason to lie like you assume Erebus or Horus could possibly be doing.
No Delvarus, there where indeed Biases in the books. all these things you're taking as gospel truth? Are things people have said, or been told. Yes Horus BELIVES the emperor stole power from the warp and reneged on promises, and we've heard it said in other cases before, but in the end our source for this is the same, CHAOS TOLD THEM. And we know for a fact "Chaos lies"
what reason would chaos have to lie about this? well it's simple. By telling Horus the emperor took their power and broke faith with them they enchourage Horus to do what they want. which is to take thier power and bind himself to them. They do this by playing one two factors, the first "If the emperor has this, might be able to best him if I have it" the second they can play on his pride a bit, make him see "doing it proper" as a point of pride. a desire to "do it BETTER then his father" the facts we've been given in the HH don't IMHO fully add up, we're missing something, something big, and something I expect we'll be told about only at the very end. This'll likely tie into the perpetuals.
There were biases in the books obviously they are, there are always biases in HH books, but this isn't a case of biased. I'm taking the Emperors servant Sureka, the person that was there (when the Emperor made his deal) as gospel not Horus or Erebus, Obviously they would lie, but actually read vengeful spirit. Chaos said it, and a non-biased third party said the same thing, who was told never to tell anyone of the deal. Bias has nothing to do with it.
A non biased 3rd party that didn’t enter the portal and is likely just engaging in conjecture, no one knows what happened, no one knows if there was actually a deal made, what that deal was if it was made etc.
It could easily just have been a deal to spread the primarchs to thier respective worlds, it could have been a deal to not kill them while they travel the warp... so many things it could have been.
LOL yeah the Emperor just went lightyears across the galaxy in a one way ship with 6 perpetuals and went in to play jenga with the Chaos gods, then left Sureka there to guard it and returned with the great crusade erased the minds of the population and left a heavily fortified galaxy there. The gateway leads to the warp where Chaos bestows power on people, what on earth could he have been doing there...
It’s a portal to the realms of the chaos gods, not some run of the mill portal that can be opened but a stable fixed position that allows two way access, why was it so heavily fortified and not just closed? Only the emperor knows, perhaps he had a plan on returning some day, we will never know, All we have is the conjecture of one remaining perpetual that he based there and we don’t know if he even told her why he was there (very unlikely given his nature), so yep, we don’t know the nature of the deal he made.
Also I doubt it was for power, if what you say is correct then what would be the point, he had already made the primarchs, so why return to molech to gain more from the gods he had already betrayed, it doesn’t add up.
You are attempting to gleam intent by filling in the gaps yourself with little to no actual background information to support your claims.
We know what Horus got from there, we know the gateways purpose. Sureka knew the Emperor got powers from the gateway even though she didn't go in, so no its not conjecture.
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its frustrating debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is basically the equivalent of saying 'I don't think John Grammaticus met with the Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.
Ok so lets go through what you said.
Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.
Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.
Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.
She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!
She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.
Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"
Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.
OR to put it in a way you will understand.
I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.
10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.
a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.
Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong
You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.
Ok so lets go through what you said.
Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.
Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.
Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.
She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!
She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.
Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"
Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.
OR to put it in a way you will understand.
I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.
10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.
a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.
Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong
You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information
Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.
She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.
No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.
Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.
She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.
I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.
If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?
There's an even more important bit in Vengefull spirit Where she recalls carrying the emperor back up the stairs. He's so wounded/exhausted he can no longer properly shield his thoughts from Alivia.
The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.
You got that backwards, mate. The Emperor bargained. Horus took it.
The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.
You got that backwards, mate. The Emperor bargained. Horus took it.
Not true, I already posted multiple qoutes where Horus said he bargained and the Emperor stole the powers:
"Horus smiled at the extra vowel at the end of the honorific. A natural development, given the power that now filled him. Power that had almost cost him his life to obtain. Not that to look at him anyone would know that. The many hurts he had suffered to win Molech had healed years ago it seemed. It was hard to be sure. His sons told him he’d only been gone moments, how could he tell them different? Molech was a far distant memory to Horus now. He’d fought wars, slain monsters and defied gods in those moments. He’d wrested the power of those same gods at the heads of vast armies of daemons. He’d fought in battles that would rage unchecked for all eternity. He’d won a thousand kingdoms within the empyrean, billions of vassals to do with as he pleased, but he’d refused it. Every pleasure and prize was his for the taking, but he’d denied them all. He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god. ‘Sire, what are your orders?’ said Ezekyle. Horus stared at the veil of stars, as though he could see all the way from Molech to Terra. He extended a clawed hand, as though already cupping the precious bauble of humanity’s cradle. ‘I am coming for you, father,’ said Horus."
"Lupercal walked in a circle, jabbing a fist into his palm with every sentence. ‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here in humble guise and found the gateway to
a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation.’ Horus was radiant as he spoke, as though he had already ascended to a divine plane of reality. ‘But the Emperor had no intention of honouring His debt to the gods. He turned on them, taking their gifts and blending them with His genecraft to give birth to demigods. The Emperor condemns the warp as unnatural, but only so no other dares wield it. The blood of the immaterial realm flows in my veins. It flows in all our veins, for as I am the Emperor’s son, you are the Sons of Horus, and the secret of our genesis was unlocked upon Molech. The gateway to that power is in Lupercalia, far beneath the mountain rock. Sealed away from the light by a jealous god who knew that someday one of His sons would seek to surpass His deeds.’ And finally Aximand understood why they had come here, why they had expended such resources and defied all military logic to follow in the footsteps of a god. This would be the moment they rose to challenge the Emperor with the very weapons He had kept for Himself. This was to be the apotheosis of them all. "
Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.
Ok so lets go through what you said.
Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.
Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.
Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.
She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!
She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.
Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"
Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.
OR to put it in a way you will understand.
I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.
10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.
a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.
Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong
You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information
Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.
She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.
No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.
Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.
She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.
I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.
If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?
Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up
And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.
Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.
Ok so lets go through what you said.
Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.
Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.
Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.
She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!
She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.
Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"
Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.
OR to put it in a way you will understand.
I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.
10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.
a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.
Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong
You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information
Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.
She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.
No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.
Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.
She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.
I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.
If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?
Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up
And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.
Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?
So you haven't read the book, I'd like an apology. Seeing that everyone can now see you are a liar I don't need to bet you a thousand pounds. You constantly make things up I've never, I back up what I say with quotes and facts. you can't even find any quotes where I have. I've pointed out many times and proved you make things up just so that you aren't wrong. I was having a civil conversation until you started lying, you haven't read the book, saying you haven't when you clearly haven't is not being uncivil, when you lie and I call you out you start saying that I make things up, but everyone can see I don't, when quote everything you say you can't lie, nor do you need to. What you can find on these threads is when someone does prove me wrong 'I' admit that I'm wrong, its far less embarrassing than being caught lying to try and make people think you're right. As for intelligence seeing that I always prove you wrong, I don't understand how you can think you are more intelligent lol. You're pathological when it comes to not wanting to admit you are wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods
I never said he got the power without any strings, if he bargained there is obviously a cost. We don't know what happened when Horus entered the House eyes.
I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.
Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.
Considering that the might of chaos abandoned Horus during his fight with the emperor (from me understanding of it) the power Horus “took” was clearly am illusion, no matter what Horus or his followers (or us the readers) think of him.
Now, given that Chaos couldn't do the same to the Emperor implies that what ever happened, and the circumstances before, during, and after must be very different for the Emperor and Horus.
ArbitorIan wrote: I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.
Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.
When someone is wrong you point it out and I did, quote where I said someone was wrong when they weren't. If everyone was just agreeing then it wouldn't really be an interesting discussion. You do the same thing when someone says something that is wrong or not supported by the lore. Just because the high amount of people commenting are wrong on parts doesn't make it any different. Like you said that the Emperor made the deal on Molech half way through the crusade was I to agree and talk about something that didn't happen, I mean that isn't a trivial error. If you said something I agree with you'd be less critical about me and have a good discussion. Everyone dislikes me because I know a lot about the lore and I point out when people are wrong, sometimes smugly which I'll admit but I don't really care. We are all wrong, you should stop being angry about it, it doesn't impact your life if you are wrong about a 40k fact. I'd be glad If I found out that the Emperor made the deal during the dark age I'd be like that's cool as feth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carlovonsexron wrote: Considering that the might of chaos abandoned Horus during his fight with the emperor (from me understanding of it) the power Horus “took” was clearly am illusion, no matter what Horus or his followers (or us the readers) think of him.
Now, given that Chaos couldn't do the same to the Emperor implies that what ever happened, and the circumstances before, during, and after must be very different for the Emperor and Horus.
pm713 wrote: The part where Chaos ditched him to watch the Emperor kill him? That's hardly obscure fluff.
Never read that, where's it in? Cause why on earth would Chaos do that. I mean the Emperor destroyed his soul so Chaos couldn't still have their champion as a daemon prince. Plus I can't find that on wiki or lex.
Keep in mind this is old fluff and may be incorrect. Although Wolfsbane suggests pretty strongly Horus is not in his right mind due to the influence of chaos.
BrianDavion wrote: Keep in mind this is old fluff and may be incorrect. Although Wolfsbane suggests pretty strongly Horus is not in his right mind due to the influence of chaos.
Yeah the spear of the Emperor brought Horus back from Chaos for a brief time when Russ stabbed him with it.
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.
Ok so lets go through what you said.
Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.
Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.
Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.
She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!
She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.
Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"
Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.
OR to put it in a way you will understand.
I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.
10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.
a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.
Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong
You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information
Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.
She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.
No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.
Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.
She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.
I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.
If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?
Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up
And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.
Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?
So you haven't read the book, I'd like an apology. Seeing that everyone can now see you are a liar I don't need to bet you a thousand pounds. You constantly make things up I've never, I back up what I say with quotes and facts. you can't even find any quotes where I have. I've pointed out many times and proved you make things up just so that you aren't wrong. I was having a civil conversation until you started lying, you haven't read the book, saying you haven't when you clearly haven't is not being uncivil, when you lie and I call you out you start saying that I make things up, but everyone can see I don't, when quote everything you say you can't lie, nor do you need to. What you can find on these threads is when someone does prove me wrong 'I' admit that I'm wrong, its far less embarrassing than being caught lying to try and make people think you're right. As for intelligence seeing that I always prove you wrong, I don't understand how you can think you are more intelligent lol. You're pathological when it comes to not wanting to admit you are wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods
I never said he got the power without any strings, if he bargained there is obviously a cost. We don't know what happened when Horus entered the House eyes.
You quote things that don’t say what you claim they say, then when called out you fall back on your usual tactics as follows.
Lie
Blame others for lying
Claim you didn’t say something
Claim others are wrong
Claim someone has not read something
So again, let’s see that 1k of sweet sweet money, and you will never ever get an apology from me, I don’t think I’m more intelligent that you, I know I am
BrianDavion wrote: Keep in mind this is old fluff and may be incorrect. Although Wolfsbane suggests pretty strongly Horus is not in his right mind due to the influence of chaos.
Yeah the spear of the Emperor brought Horus back from Chaos for a brief time when Russ stabbed him with it.
It seemed too yes. which raises the question, we know there's an old story that Sanguinis put a chink of Horus' armor that the emperor exploited, I'd long dismissed that as "wishful thinking" by the blood angels given the confrontation between Horus and the Emperor was from all accounts mostly Psykic in nature, now I wonder if perhaps Sanguinis had his own spear \(not nesscarily a spear mind you) , and it combined with Russ's earlier attack ios what lead to chaos losing hold on Horus. In otherwords Chaos didn't ABANDON Horus, they where cut off.
Formosa wrote: We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?
We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?
We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?
We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?
All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.
You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?
Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'
Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.
Ok so lets go through what you said.
Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.
Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.
Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.
She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!
She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.
Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"
Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.
OR to put it in a way you will understand.
I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.
10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.
a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.
Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong
You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information
Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.
She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.
No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.
Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.
She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.
I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.
If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?
Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up
And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.
Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?
So you haven't read the book, I'd like an apology. Seeing that everyone can now see you are a liar I don't need to bet you a thousand pounds. You constantly make things up I've never, I back up what I say with quotes and facts. you can't even find any quotes where I have. I've pointed out many times and proved you make things up just so that you aren't wrong. I was having a civil conversation until you started lying, you haven't read the book, saying you haven't when you clearly haven't is not being uncivil, when you lie and I call you out you start saying that I make things up, but everyone can see I don't, when quote everything you say you can't lie, nor do you need to. What you can find on these threads is when someone does prove me wrong 'I' admit that I'm wrong, its far less embarrassing than being caught lying to try and make people think you're right. As for intelligence seeing that I always prove you wrong, I don't understand how you can think you are more intelligent lol. You're pathological when it comes to not wanting to admit you are wrong.
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BrianDavion wrote: Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods
I never said he got the power without any strings, if he bargained there is obviously a cost. We don't know what happened when Horus entered the House eyes.
You quote things that don’t say what you claim they say, then when called out you fall back on your usual tactics as follows.
Lie
Blame others for lying
Claim you didn’t say something
Claim others are wrong
Claim someone has not read something
So again, let’s see that 1k of sweet sweet money, and you will never ever get an apology from me, I don’t think I’m more intelligent that you, I know I am
Do you know what projection is ? Oh dear...
You're the liar, everyone can see you are. Anyone can see you lying in the other threads. You make stuff up as well, which is pathetic. Quote me where I claim I didn't say something, quote me where I have been wrong other than the times I admit I am wrong. YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK, you proved it yourself, you couldn't asnwer even one of the questions on the book Ithat I asked you and you lied again saying you've read all the HH books lol, you are seriously pathological. I'm far more intelligent than you mate, it must drive you crazy that you think you are more intelligent but I literally have proved you wrong in everything you've said to me, if I was willing to waste the time I'd quote all those instances, it'd be funny, but anyone can see in this thread how many times I have, so I'll just leave it. projection like me calling you a liar and that you made things up in our first argument and then you are trying to say I lie, yeah I know what projection is lol Pay you a thousand, for what you still haven't quoted anything. People that say 'I'm more intelligent than you, are often insecure about their own intelligence.
pm713 wrote: If you're that intelligent then why are you arguing on dakka with giant text walls?????
I never claimed I was intelligent, captain picard said I wasn't, I merely said the truth that I'm more intelligent than him. Why do you get butthurt when you are told that you are wrong on a point, its just so petty.
ArbitorIan wrote: I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.
Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.
Not only that, his quotes are only marginally related to the subject at hand and he says that they prove things they actually really don't prove at all.
I'm all for understanding that the lore has different interpretations for different people, but Delvarus seems to believe some pretty blatantly incorrect things about the lore (like saying Horus was warmaster for "ages" before the HH) and still clings to these views even if proven wrong.
Most of the things he says are valid "interpretations" (from my perspective), but if you disagree with him or present him with an alternate opinion he seems to take it as a personal attack and screams at you that your totally subjective interpretation is wrong.
ArbitorIan wrote: I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.
Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.
Not only that, his quotes are only marginally related to the subject at hand and he says that they prove things they actually really don't prove at all.
I'm all for understanding that the lore has different interpretations for different people, but Delvarus seems to believe some pretty blatantly incorrect things about the lore (like saying Horus was warmaster for "ages" before the HH) and still clings to these views even if proven wrong.
Most of the things he says are valid "interpretations" (from my perspective), but if you disagree with him or present him with an alternate opinion he seems to take it as a personal attack and screams at you that your totally subjective interpretation is wrong.
How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?
BrianDavion wrote: How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?
About 5 years, from the end of the Ullanor campaign to Istvaan III. I personally believe the battle of Istavaan III to be the start of the Horus Heresy, even though Horus technically started making moves before then.
BrianDavion wrote: How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?
About 5 years, from the end of the Ullanor campaign to Istvaan III. I personally believe the battle of Istavaan III to be the start of the Horus Heresy, even though Horus technically started making moves before then.
BrianDavion wrote: How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?
About 5 years, from the end of the Ullanor campaign to Istvaan III. I personally believe the battle of Istavaan III to be the start of the Horus Heresy, even though Horus technically started making moves before then.
Take into account that Lorgar had been preparing for half a century, and the rest being 'wizards did it' or Primarchs going "meh, why not betray dad". The HH series really botched the conversion to traitor in a few books. Some motivations already made sense like the NL, some still don't like the IW emo-ing themselves into the HH or the AL's "I trust you random aliens I've never met before and would have massacred five minutes ago".
Disciple of Fate wrote: Take into account that Lorgar had been preparing for half a century, and the rest being 'wizards did it' or Primarchs going "meh, why not betray dad". The HH series really botched the conversion to traitor in a few books. Some motivations already made sense like the NL, some still don't like the IW emo-ing themselves into the HH or the AL's "I trust you random aliens I've never met before and would have massacred five minutes ago".
If you haven't read Angel Exterminatus, do it. It gives an amazing insight into why the Iron Warriors, and Perturabo in particular turned traitor.
Disciple of Fate wrote: Take into account that Lorgar had been preparing for half a century, and the rest being 'wizards did it' or Primarchs going "meh, why not betray dad". The HH series really botched the conversion to traitor in a few books. Some motivations already made sense like the NL, some still don't like the IW emo-ing themselves into the HH or the AL's "I trust you random aliens I've never met before and would have massacred five minutes ago".
If you haven't read Angel Exterminatus, do it. It gives an amazing insight into why the Iron Warriors, and Perturabo in particular turned traitor.
I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.
Disciple of Fate wrote: I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.
Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.
Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer just like his adoptive father did... Perturabo really hated that. All Perturabo really wanted to do was sit in a workshop somewhere and invent and build things, but the Emperor essentially forcefully conscripted him and then gave him the worst of the worst jobs over and over because none of the other Primarchs would take them. His brothers then proceeded to crap on him constantly for being an unsociable feth head, and swoop in at the last minute and steal all the glory of the victories that the IW did most of the work for.
It makes perfect sense to me why he turned, and honestly, IMO his is the most sympathetic story second only to Magnus and Angron.
Disciple of Fate wrote: I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.
Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.
Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer, despite Perturabo's desire of sitting in a workshop somewhere inventing and building things.
Yeah of course, but the Olympia atrocity only happene because of the path Perturabo pushed himself and the Legion down. That's the whole issue I have, before the HH series the IW were a Legion thrown into the meatgrinder and ignored and that made them resent the Emperor. Now its clear that this wasn't at all the case, it was their Primarch making them do those things but then its still the Emperor's fault?
The build up to Olympia gets totally undermined by the expanding fluff on the HH. Other Primarchs refused certain tasks and did their own things, yet somehow in the case of Perturabo he suddenly got forced by the Emperor? We now know other Legions refused garrison duties and Perturabo wanted to throw his own Legion into the meatgrinder, but now its his dad's fault for him volunteering? Its such bad writing.
Disciple of Fate wrote: The build up to Olympia gets totally undermined by the expanding fluff on the HH. Other Primarchs refused certain tasks and did their own things, yet somehow in the case of Perturabo he suddenly got forced by the Emperor?
Someone had to do those jobs, all the other primarchs basically said "not it". Perturabo was left holding the bag, and didn't want to refuse because he wanted to be seen as loyal and dependable. I think his own stubbornness also had a role to play in that... no matter how difficult something was he always wanted to rise to the occasion and beat it.
Disciple of Fate wrote: The build up to Olympia gets totally undermined by the expanding fluff on the HH. Other Primarchs refused certain tasks and did their own things, yet somehow in the case of Perturabo he suddenly got forced by the Emperor?
Someone had to do those jobs, all the other primarchs basically said "not it". Perturabo was left holding the bag, and didn't want to refuse because he wanted to be seen as loyal and dependable.
But that is the issue, it makes him out to be a petulant child for throwing a tantrum over his own actions. It destroys some of the mystique of the HH. Sometimes not all the blanks have to be filled in. If the HH series had the Emperor somehow pressuring the IW into doing it and not the other Legions (as in favoritism) it would have been so much better. But its clear he could have just said no without any consequences. Now we have a monster of Frankenstein like combination of the old and new lore that just doesn't mesh.
Disciple of Fate wrote: If the HH series had the Emperor somehow pressuring the IW into doing it and not the other Legions (as in favoritism) it would have been so much better.
What makes you think this wasn't going on behind the scenes? It was pretty strongly implied this was the case in Angel Exterminatus.
Disciple of Fate wrote: If the HH series had the Emperor somehow pressuring the IW into doing it and not the other Legions (as in favoritism) it would have been so much better.
What makes you think this wasn't going on behind the scenes? It was pretty strongly implied this was the case in Angel Exterminatus.
Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so. The issue is that the IW are not looking at their own role objectively while other books have shown it was Perturabo doubling down on their gak role while others just declined those orders.
ArbitorIan wrote: I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.
Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.
Is this like the Martel of the background section? I don't come here often but this seems to be how every single thread this guy makes goes. Honestly though, Martel isn't even this bad so it's probably not fair of me to have made that comparison.
Though at times it's not even proving them wrong, its more vague like using something a character said rather than what would be fact to the story; second handed information like that isn't always accurate cause while some writers use dialogue to convey plot points not all of them do. Really, even when they do it feels lazy.
Disciple of Fate wrote: Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so.
It doesn't matter if it was objectively happening or not, Perturabo felt that it was, so it was real to him, and was a major reason why he ended up turning because it pushed him to start down that path.
Disciple of Fate wrote: Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so.
It doesn't matter if it was objectively happening or not, Perturabo felt that it was, so it was real to him, and was a major reason why he ended up turning because it pushed him to start down that path.
Yeah but again, that's my issue, the HH series as it is set up now makes Perturabo sound like a petulant child when the rest of it doesn't back up what Perturabo believes, it could have been handled so much better. Its almost on the level of the AL and the Cabal... almost...
Disciple of Fate wrote: Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so.
It doesn't matter if it was objectively happening or not, Perturabo felt that it was, so it was real to him, and was a major reason why he ended up turning because it pushed him to start down that path.
Yeah but again, that's my issue, the HH series as it is set up now makes Perturabo sound like a petulant child when the rest of it doesn't back up what Perturabo believes, it could have been handled so much better. Its almost on the level of the AL and the Cabal... almost...
I dunno about a Pertulant child, more accuratly Pertuabo is reacting to deep seated personal issues and insecurities, perhaps as a result seeing things that aren't there and, yes, refusing to take responsiability for his actions. That's not "bad writing" that's called "writing a character with character flaws" each of the traitor primarchs are horriably flawed individuals. That's the point, they're super human in so many areas, but in other areas have huuge flaws. flaws that chaos exploited.
So you say "bad writing" I say "just the oppisite" if the triator primarchs where all flawless people who understood everything etc. well.. 1 the Horus Heresy likely wouldn't have happened. 2: the HH novels would have read like a Matt Ward codex.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno about a Pertulant child, more accuratly Pertuabo is reacting to deep seated personal issues and insecurities, perhaps as a result seeing things that aren't there and, yes, refusing to take responsiability for his actions. That's not "bad writing" that's called "writing a character with character flaws" each of the traitor primarchs are horriably flawed individuals. That's the point, they're super human in so many areas, but in other areas have huuge flaws. flaws that chaos exploited.
So you say "bad writing" I say "just the oppisite" if the triator primarchs where all flawless people who understood everything etc. well.. 1 the Horus Heresy likely wouldn't have happened. 2: the HH novels would have read like a Matt Ward codex.
I agree that they should be flawed, but the issue is in presentation of how they are flawed. As in the whole IW Legion just seems to go with it. The other IW that stay loyal don't even do so because they feel Perturabo was wrong, but more because they can't see themselves betraying the Emperor. I feel like the IW story is as big as the ocean and written as deep as a puddle, its just feels off when they try and force two conflicting parts of the lore together like that. The IW more so than other Legions just seem to go along in Perturabo's delusions (which made more sense in the older fluff of them being forced to do these things by the Emperor). I think some changes in writing while keeping the troubled Perturabo would have gone a long way in explaining how the Legion turned.
Disciple of Fate wrote: I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.
Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.
Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer just like his adoptive father did... Perturabo really hated that. All Perturabo really wanted to do was sit in a workshop somewhere and invent and build things, but the Emperor essentially forcefully conscripted him and then gave him the worst of the worst jobs over and over because none of the other Primarchs would take them. His brothers then proceeded to crap on him constantly for being an unsociable feth head, and swoop in at the last minute and steal all the glory of the victories that the IW did most of the work for.
It makes perfect sense to me why he turned, and honestly, IMO his is the most sympathetic story second only to Magnus and Angron.
{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]
'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}
pm713 wrote: If you're that intelligent then why are you arguing on dakka with giant text walls?????
I never claimed I was intelligent, captain picard said I wasn't, I merely said the truth that I'm more intelligent than him. Why do you get butthurt when you are told that you are wrong on a point, its just so petty.
If you look up you'll see the point flying over your head.
Disciple of Fate wrote: I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.
Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.
Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer just like his adoptive father did... Perturabo really hated that. All Perturabo really wanted to do was sit in a workshop somewhere and invent and build things, but the Emperor essentially forcefully conscripted him and then gave him the worst of the worst jobs over and over because none of the other Primarchs would take them. His brothers then proceeded to crap on him constantly for being an unsociable feth head, and swoop in at the last minute and steal all the glory of the victories that the IW did most of the work for.
It makes perfect sense to me why he turned, and honestly, IMO his is the most sympathetic story second only to Magnus and Angron.
{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]
'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}
godking wrote: {Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]
'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}
Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.
godking wrote: 90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.
That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.
"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"
I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.
ArbitorIan wrote: I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.
Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.
Not only that, his quotes are only marginally related to the subject at hand and he says that they prove things they actually really don't prove at all.
I'm all for understanding that the lore has different interpretations for different people, but Delvarus seems to believe some pretty blatantly incorrect things about the lore (like saying Horus was warmaster for "ages" before the HH) and still clings to these views even if proven wrong.
Most of the things he says are valid "interpretations" (from my perspective), but if you disagree with him or present him with an alternate opinion he seems to take it as a personal attack and screams at you that your totally subjective interpretation is wrong.
You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.
"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."
that's your quotes from the wisest Primarch thread page 6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone actually quote where I use the lore or quotes where It doesn't actually prove my point, all of you on you go, go look and post it here. Everyone of you I have proven wrong once or twice and you are all just butthurt and joining in the butthurt gang. You all do the same, all of you say I'm wrong and then when I quote something that shows I'm not you's all get so butthurt and you gang to gether for support because it makes you feel better about being shown that you are wrong, All I care about is when a couple of you lie, not gonna name names but you know who you are. I literally couldn't care if I'm wrong, again its just sad. And if you are actually going to bring up something without quoting, I will go fishing for like I did with wizard.
godking wrote: {Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]
'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}
Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.
godking wrote: 90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.
That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.
"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"
I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.
We are getting off-topic at this point though....
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?
And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?
Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.
Its obvious why the emperor chose Dorn over Perturabo to build his palace,
Dorn might be a slightly lesser siegemaster but has none of the hangups that Perturabo has.
If i had to work on a project and had the choice between a guy like Perturabo or a guy like Dorn to work with i would chose Dorn.
Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.
We still do'nt know the particulars but. spoilers for Wolfsbane under the cut.
Spoiler:
Russ is scared when he learns his real name. And what the emperor originally intented for him.
Names have power in 40K, especially ADB and Dan Abnett like using that. But it's also appeared in codices and the like. GK especially.
Primachs aren't "normal" There have been several hints throughout both the HH and old lore that they are almost as much psychic construct as they are Emperor's genetic creation. I can't remember wich book but there is one that states outright E can't create more primarchs. He needed his deal with Chaos for that.
Something important to bear in mind for the Chaos gods. Is that they don't simply want to win but in as many "moves" as possible. A very recurrent theme with Chaos is it's self defeating nature. Chaos sabotages itself. The serpent swallowing its own tail etc..
Also do'nt be too hostile to Delvarus. He's mostly right.
The Emperor went to Molech twice. Once before the great crusade and once more during.
Also read Vengefull spirit and the Magnus novella back to back and realise:
Spoiler:
The emperor is the stormlord in both. Boy is he one hell of a villain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One last thing: The emperor clearly didn't read Frankenstein or forgot the book has 2 monsters.
He didn't take proper care of his primarchs and it bit him in the ass hard.
Earth127 wrote: We still do'nt know the particulars but. spoilers for Wolfsbane under the cut.
Spoiler:
Russ is scared when he learns his real name. And what the emperor originally intented for him.
Names have power in 40K, especially ADB and Dan Abnett like using that. But it's also appeared in codices and the like. GK especially.
Primachs aren't "normal" There have been several hints throughout both the HH and old lore that they are almost as much psychic construct as they are Emperor's genetic creation. I can't remember wich book but there is one that states outright E can't create more primarchs. He needed his deal with Chaos for that.
Something important to bear in mind for the Chaos gods. Is that they don't simply want to win but in as many "moves" as possible. A very recurrent theme with Chaos is it's self defeating nature. Chaos sabotages itself. The serpent swallowing its own tail etc..
Also do'nt be too hostile to Delvarus. He's mostly right.
The Emperor went to Molech twice. Once before the great crusade and once more during.
Also read Vengefull spirit and the Magnus novella back to back and realise:
Spoiler:
The emperor is the stormlord in both. Boy is he one hell of a villain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One last thing: The emperor clearly didn't read Frankenstein or forgot the book has 2 monsters.
He didn't take proper care of his primarchs and it bit him in the ass hard.
godking wrote: {Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]
'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}
Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.
godking wrote: 90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.
That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.
"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"
I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.
We are getting off-topic at this point though....
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?
And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?
Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.
Its obvious why the emperor chose Dorn over Perturabo to build his palace,
Dorn might be a slightly lesser siegemaster but has none of the hangups that Perturabo has.
If i had to work on a project and had the choice between a guy like Perturabo or a guy like Dorn to work with i would chose Dorn.
Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.
Dorn only started building defences in the palace when the HH started, so he didn't chose Dorn of Perty. Out of all the traitor Primarch Perty was the only one that still cared for humanity and even cared for all the other loyalist Astartes.
‘I have this hour spoken to the Imperial Regent, Malcador the Sigillite, via machine-call vox,’ said
the primarch. ‘It was my affirmation to him that, despite the dedication you have shown to the
Emperor in braving the gauntlet to carry forth your warning, the Council of Terra cannot be fully
certain where the loyalties of such men ultimately lie.’ There was a hard edge to Dorn’s voice, but for
the first time Garro sensed the tension in him. It was not easy for the primarch to utter such words to
fellow Astartes. ‘My orders were to return to Terra to bulwark the planet’s defences and it seems that
I may have to do that in order to resist my own brothers.’ He glanced at Garro. ‘I will attend the
Imperial Palace and brief the Emperor on this grave news. You, the refugees from the Vengeful Spirit
and all the Astartes from the Eisenstein, will remain in secure holding at the Somnus Citadel on Luna
until our master decides what your fate will be.’" - flight of the eisenstein.
Perty letting the Iron Hands escape:
"There will be some,’said Forrix, moving to the surveyor station and linking it to the launch decks. ‘A few will have reached saviour pods, but some are still out in the void aboard Stormbirds and torpedoes. There’re bound to be more left aboard the wreck too. I’m launching a full spread of rescue craft.’ Perturabo watched as the Trident began re-establishing control throughout the Iron Blood, establishing a contravallation of picket ships and organising the rescue effort for the crew of the Andronicus. Thousands had died in its sudden, merciless demise, but Forrix could yet save hundreds with his unmatched logistical nous. He watched the Iron Hands vessel twist on its axis, more agile than anything that ugly had a right to be. Still bleeding a tail of ignited plasma and mag-locked debris, the Sisypheum arced down towards a knot of storm clouds that looked to offer no easy way through. ‘My lord,’said Kroeger, his fingertips hovering over fire control. ‘Do we shoot now?’ ‘No,’said Perturabo. ‘Leave them. They’ve earned that much." - angel exterminatus
Perty not hating the Legions:
"Unlike many of his brothers, Perturabo did not hate the Legions that had remained true to the Emperor. They were tools with which their father had carved out his empire, warriors as abused as Perturabo’s sons, but too stubborn or too blind to see it. The Iron Hands were an honourable Legion, but they had changed in the centuries since Perturabo and his brother primarchs had each made that climb to the crenellated peak of the Astartes Tower to swear their oaths of moment" - angel exterminatus.
Dorn does have bad hang ups, he was constantly going into rages and had a very short temper.
He didn't work on his personality because he was very insular, he spent time creating little clock work warhound models and was obsessed with the minutia of details in perfecting something. He was still a deep thinker.
The Emperor way before the Crusade started built a starship to fly to Molech. We don’t know how He knew about this place but He went anyway.
He went into The Realm of Chaos via the door way.
A while later He came out and was rather exhausted needing help to climb the stairs but He was “Too Powerful, raw and damaged”. His face was gaunt and His glamours He normally hides His true appearance were not working.
He then managed to get back to Terra. Without a starship. So clearly He was indeed much more powerful on the return journey. It’s also quoted as saying He stole the powers from the Realm of Chaos and that it would have been suicide for Him to return to the gate in order to close it due to the proximity of Chaos.
I am going to presume that He is at this point the “supernova” of psychic light that we all know and love. Presumably once He returns to Terra He then uses this power and knowledge to create the Primarchs.
Mellow wrote: I mean it really just boils down to a few things:
The Emperor way before the Crusade started built a starship to fly to Molech. We don’t know how He knew about this place but He went anyway.
He went into The Realm of Chaos via the door way.
A while later He came out and was rather exhausted needing help to climb the stairs but He was “Too Powerful, raw and damaged”. His face was gaunt and His glamours He normally hides His true appearance were not working.
He then managed to get back to Terra. Without a starship. So clearly He was indeed much more powerful on the return journey. It’s also quoted as saying He stole the powers from the Realm of Chaos and that it would have been suicide for Him to return to the gate in order to close it due to the proximity of Chaos.
I am going to presume that He is at this point the “supernova” of psychic light that we all know and love. Presumably once He returns to Terra He then uses this power and knowledge to create the Primarchs.
Where did you read all this, him being exhausted and needing help to climb the stairs not using his glamour and how he was powerful of the return journey? none of this is in the vengeful spirit novel and to my knowledge that's the only piece of lore on the actual trip the Emperor made to the obsidian gate during the dark age of technology, Erebus mentioned it as well but only that the Emperor made a bargain.
Mellow wrote: Well the spaceship quote is in chapter 2
How The Emperor was when He came out the Chaos gate in in chapter 22
This is the only bit in Chapter 22 that says anything about the Emperors travels:
Alivia led the Ultramarines and her five soldiers ever downwards along a twisting series of switchback
stairs beneath the Sanctuary. The walls were glassy and smooth, cut down through the geomantic roots of
Mount Torger by the colossal power of the galaxy’s most singular mind.
No light shone this deep, and only the Ultramarines suit lights pierced the darkness. If felt like nobody
came here precisely because nobody ever came here.
‘How much deeper is this gate, mamzel?’ asked Castor Alcade. The smell of plasmic fire still clung to
his armour, and his breath had the hot flavour of burned stone to it.
‘It’s not far,’ she said, though distance would become a somewhat subjective quantity the deeper they
went.
‘And how is it that you know of it?’
Alivia struggled to think of a way to answer that without sounding like a lunatic.
‘I came here a very long time ago,’ she said.
‘You’re being evasive,’ said Alcade.
‘Yes.’
‘So why should I put my trust you?’
‘You already have, legate,’ said Alivia, turning and giving him her most winning smile. ‘You wouldn’t
be here if you hadn’t.’
She’d told them of what lay beneath the Sanctuary, a gate closed in ages past by the Emperor and which
Horus planned to open. She told them that beyond the gate lay a source of monstrously dangerous power,
and thankfully that was enough for them.
She’d not relished the prospect of trying to exert her empathic influences over the legionaries of the XIII
Legion, but as things turned out there hadn’t been any need to apply pressure to the legate’s psyche.
It wasn’t hard to see why.
She’d offered him a last lifeline to achieve something worthwhile, and he’d seized it with both hands.
‘Thirty men facing the might of two Legions sounds grand in the honour rolls,’ he’d said after she’d told
him what she wanted of him and his men. ‘But last stands are just the sorts of theoreticals we’ve trained
our entire lives to avoid.’
‘This isn’t a fight we’ll walk away from either,’ she’d warned.
‘Better to fight for something than die for nothing.’
He’d said it with such a straight face too. She hadn’t the heart to tell him that sentiments like that were
what had kept men fighting one another for millennia.
They’d found the citadel filled with refugees. Most had ignored them, but some begged for protection
until Didacus Theron fired a warning shot over their heads.
The Sanctuary and its secret levels, the really interesting levels that not even the Sacristans or
Mechanicum knew about, were beneath the deserted Vault Transcendent. Alivia took every confounding
turn through the catacombs and located every hidden door as though she’d walked here only yesterday.
The last time Alivia had climbed these particular steps, her legs were like rubber and fear sweat coated
her back like a layer of frost. She’d helped him come back to the world; her arm around his waist, his
across her shoulder. She’d tried to keep his thoughts – normally so impenetrable – from reaching into her,
but he was too powerful, too raw and too damaged from what lay beyond the gate to keep everything
inside.
She’d seen things she wished she hadn’t. Futures she’d seen in her nightmares ever since or inked in the
pages of a forgotten storybook. Abominable things that were now intruding on the waking world, invited
in by those who hadn’t the faintest clue of what a terrible mistake they were making.
‘Do these steps ever bloody end?’ asked Theron.
‘They do, but it’ll seem like they won’t,’ answered Alivia. ‘It’s kind of a side effect of being so close
to a scar in the space-time fabric of the world. Or part of the gate’s defence mechanisms, I forget which.
It’s amazing how many people just give up, thinking they’re getting nowhere.’
‘I’ve been mapping our route,’ said a Techmarine called Kyro with a superior tone that suggested he
was equal to anything this place could throw at him.
‘You haven’t,’ said Alivia, tapping a finger to the side of her head. ‘Trust me.’
Kyro flipped up a portion of his gauntlet and a rotating holographic appeared. A three-dimensional
mapping tool. Right away, Kyro frowned in consternation as multiple routes and divergent pathways that
didn’t exist filled the grainy image.
‘Told you,’ said Alivia.
‘But do they ever end?’ asked Alcade.
Alivia didn’t answer, but stepped out onto a wide hallway that she knew every one of the Ultramarines
would swear hadn’t been there moments ago. Like everything else here it had a smooth, volcanic quality,
but light shone here, glittering within the rock like moonlight on the surface of an ocean.
Wide enough for six legionaries to walk comfortably abreast, the hallway was long and opened into a
rough-hewn chamber of chiselled umber brick. The Emperor never told her how this chamber had come to
be or how He’d known of it, save that it had been here before geological forces of an earlier epoch raised
the mountain above.
Ancient hands had cut the stone bricks here, but Alivia never liked looking too closely at the
proportions of the blocks or their subtly wrong arrangement. It always left her strangely unsettled and
feeling that those hands had not belonged to any species known by the galaxy’s current inhabitants.
The Ultramarines spread out, muscle memory and ingrained practical pushing them into a workable
defensive pattern. Alivia’s human allies, Valance especially, kept close to her like a bodyguard.
‘Is that it?’ asked Alcade, unable to keep the disappointment from his voice. ‘This is the Hellgate you
spoke of?’
‘That’s it,’ agreed Alivia with a smirk. ‘What did you expect? The Eternity Gate?’
She’d told them something of what lay beyond the gate, but Alivia had to agree it didn’t exactly look
like the most secure means of keeping something so hideously dangerous out. Irregular chunks of dark
stone veined with white formed a tall archway in the darker red of the mountain’s foundations.
The space between the arch was mirror-smooth black stone, like a slab of obsidian cut from a perfectly
flat lava bed. Nothing within the chamber was reflected in its surface.
‘We expected something that looked like it would take more than a rock drill or a demo charge to
breach,’ said Kyro.
‘Trust me,’ said Alivia. ‘There’s nothing you or the Mechanicum could bring that would get that open.’
‘So how does Horus plan to open it?’
‘He’s blood of the Emperor’s blood,’ she said. ‘That’ll be enough unless I can seal it.’
‘You said the Emperor sealed it,’ said Theron.
‘No, I said He closed it,’ said Alivia. ‘That’s not same thing.’
Alcade looked at her strangely, as though now seeing something of the truth of what she was.
‘And how is it you know how to seal it?’ he asked.
‘He showed me how.’
Kyro tapped the black wall with one of his servo-arms. It made no sound whatsoever. At least in this
world. ‘If what’s beyond here is so terrible, why didn’t the Emperor seal it Himself?’
‘Because He couldn’t, not then, maybe not ever,’ said Alivia, remembering the gaunt, aged face she’d
seen beyond the glamours. He’d been gone no more than a heartbeat to her, but she saw centuries carved
into the face she’d watched go into the gate.
‘The Emperor couldn’t seal it, but you can?’ said Kyro. ‘You’ll forgive me, Mamzel Sureka, if I find
that hard to believe.’
‘I don’t give a damn what you find hard to believe,’ snapped Alivia. ‘There are things a god can do and
things He can’t. That’s why sometimes they need mortals to do their dirty work. The Emperor left armies
to guard against obvious intruders, but He needed someone to keep out the lone madmen, the seekers of
dark knowledge or anyone who accidentally stumbled on the truth. Since I’ve been on Molech, I’ve killed
one hundred and thirteen people who’ve been drawn here by the whispered poisons that seep from
beyond this gate. So don’t you dare doubt what I can do!’
She took a calming breath and shrugged off her coat, tucking the loaded Ferlach serpenta into the
waistband of her fatigues. She felt foolish for losing her temper, but every emotion was heightened in this
place.
‘How old are you, Mamzel Sureka?’ asked Alcade.
‘What’s that got to do with anything?’ said Alivia, though she knew exactly where he was going with
this.
‘The Emperor was last on Molech over a century ago,’ said Alcade. ‘And even with juvenat treatments,
you’re nowhere near old enough to have been at His side.’
Alivia laughed, a bitter, desperate sound. ‘You don’t know how old I am, Castor Alcade. And, right
now, I wish I didn’t either
In Chapter 2 the only mention of it is by Horus who wasn't there, the rest of chapter 2 is all Malcador and the Primarchs:
‘So you came to Dwell to see if you could fill the void in your memory?’ said Fulgrim.
‘After a fashion,’ agreed Horus, circling back to where he had begun his circuit of the cylinders. ‘Every
man and woman interred here over the millennia has become part of a shared consciousness, a world
memory containing everything each individual had learned, from the first great diaspora to the present
day.’
‘Impressive,’ agreed Mortarion.
‘Hardly,’ said Fulgrim. ‘We all have eidetic memories. What is there here of value I do not already
know?’
‘Do you remember all your battles, Fulgrim?’ asked Horus.
‘Of course. Every sword swing, every manoeuvre, every shot. Every kill.’
‘Squad names, warriors? Places, people?’
‘All of it,’ insisted Fulgrim.
‘Then tell me of Molech,’ said Horus. ‘Tell me what you remember of that compliance.’
Fulgrim opened his mouth to speak, but no words came out. His expression was that of a blank-faced
novitiate as he sought the answer to a drill sergeant’s rhetorical question.
‘I don’t understand,’ said Fulgrim. ‘I remember Molech, I do, its wilds and its high castles and its
Knights, but…’
His words trailed off, putting Aximand in the mind of a warrior suffering severe head trauma. ‘We were
both there, you and I, before the Third Legion had numbers to operate alone. And the Lion? Wait, was
Jaghatai there too?’
Horus nodded. ‘So the logs say,’ he said. ‘We four and the Emperor travelled to Molech. It complied,
of course. What planet would offer resistance to Legion forces led by the Emperor?’
‘An overwhelming force,’ said Mortarion. ‘Was heavy resistance expected?’
‘Far from it,’ said Horus. ‘Molech’s rulers were inveterate record keepers, and they remembered
Terra. Its people had weathered Old Night, and when the Emperor descended to the surface it was
inevitable they would accept compliance.’
‘We remained there for some months, did we not?’ asked Fulgrim.
Aximand glanced at Abaddon and saw the same look on the First Captain’s face he felt he wore. He too
remembered Molech, but like the primarchs was having difficulty in recalling specific details. Aximand
had almost certainly visited the planet’s surface, but found it hard to form a coherent picture of its
environs.
‘According to the Vengeful Spirit’s horologs, we were there for a hundred and eleven standard Terran
days, one hundred and nine local. After we left nearly a hundred regiments of Army, three Titanicus
cohorts and garrison detachments from two Legions were left in place.’
‘For a planet that embraced compliance?’ said Mortarion. ‘A waste of resources if ever I heard it.
What need did the Emperor have to fortify Molech with such strength?’
Horus snapped his fingers and said, ‘Exactly.’
‘I’m guessing you have an answer for that question,’ said Fulgrim. ‘Otherwise why summon us here?’
‘I have an answer of sorts,’ said Horus, tapping the cryo-cylinder containing Arthis Varfell. ‘A
specialty of this particular iterator was the early history of the Emperor, the wars of Unity and the various
myths and legends surrounding His assumption of Old Earth’s throne. The memories of Dwell are
untainted, and many of its earliest settlers were driven here by the raging tides of Old Night. What they
remember goes back a very long way, and Varfell assimilated it all.’
‘What do you mean?’ asked Fulgrim.
‘I mean that some of the oldest Dwellers came from Molech, and they remember the Emperor’s first
appearance on their world.’
‘First?’ said Fulgrim.
Mortarion gripped Silence tightly. ‘He had been there before? When?’
‘If I’m interpreting the dreams of the dead right, then our father first set foot on Molech many centuries,
or even millennia before the wars of Unity. He came in a starship that never returned to Earth, a starship I
believe now forms the heart of the Dawn Citadel.’
‘The Dawn Citadel… I remember that,’ said Fulgrim. ‘Yes, there was an ugly, cannibalised structure of
ship parts at the end of a mountain valley! The Lion built one of his sombre castles around it did he not?’
‘He did indeed,’ said Horus. ‘The Emperor needed a starship to reach Molech, but didn’t need it to get
back. Whatever He found there made Him into a god, or as near as makes no difference.’
‘And you think whatever that was is still there?’ said Fulgrim with heady anticipation. ‘Even after all
this time?’
‘Why else leave the planet so heavily defended?’ said Mortarion. ‘It’s the only explanation.’
Horus nodded. ‘Through Arthis Varfell, I learned a great deal of Molech’s early years, together with
what the four of us did there. Some of it I even remembered.’
‘The Emperor erased your memories of Molech?’ said Abaddon, forgetting himself for a moment.
‘Ezekyle!’ hissed Aximand.
Abaddon’s outrage eclipsed his decorum, his choler roused as he sought to vent his anger. Beyond him,
the stars were out, casting a glittering light over Tyjun. Stablights from patrolling aircraft swept the city.
Some close, some far away, but none came near the skeletal structure of the dome.
‘No, not erased,’ said Horus, overlooking his First Captain’s outburst. ‘Something so drastic would
quickly result in a form of cognitive dissonance that would draw attention to its very existence. This was
more a… manipulation, the lessening of some memories and the strengthening others to overshadow the
gaps.’
‘But to alter the memories of three entire Legions,’ breathed Fulgrim. ‘The power that would require…’
‘So, it’s to Molech then?’ said Mortarion.
‘Yes, brothers,’ said Horus, spreading his arms. ‘We are to follow in the footsteps of a god and become
gods ourselves.’
‘Our Legions stand ready,’ said Fulgrim, febrile anticipation making his body shimmer with corposant.
‘No, brother, I require only Mortarion’s Legion for this war-making,’ said Horus.
‘Then why summon me at all?’ snapped Fulgrim. ‘Why insult my warriors by excluding them from your
designs?’
‘Because it’s not your Legion I need, it’s you,’ said Horus, spearing to the heart of Fulgrim’s vanity.
‘My Phoenician brother, I need you most of all.’
Aximand’s ocular filters dimmed as a stablight swept through the buckled struts of the dome. Stark
shadows bowed and twisted.
Everyone looked up.
The dark outline of an aircraft rose up beyond the dome, its engines bellowing with downdraft. A
blizzard of broken glass took to the air. Glittering reflections dazzled like snow.
‘Who the hell’s flying so close?’ said Abaddon, shielding his eyes from the blinding glare. More noise,
fresh stablights from the other side of the dome.
Another two aircraft.
Fire Raptors. Horde killers that had made their name at Ullanor. Coated in non-reflective black.
Hovering, circling the dome. Icons on their glacis shone proudly after months of being obscured.
Silver gauntlets on a black field.
‘It’s Meduson!’ shouted Aximand. ‘It’s Shadrak bloody Meduson!’
Three centreline Avenger cannons roared in unison. Braying quad guns on waist turrets followed an
instant later.
And the Dome of Revivification vanished in a sheeting inferno of orange flame
godking wrote: Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?
He doesn't.
godking wrote: And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?
He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected.
godking wrote: Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.
Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves.
godking wrote: Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.
Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.
"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."
I never said "warmaster" was a chaos title or that Horus fell to chaos before becoming warmaster and I'm not sure how you are getting that from my quote... WTF?
Like, I am really wondering if you have reading comprehension issues or english is not your first language?
godking wrote: Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?
He doesn't.
godking wrote: And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?
He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected.
godking wrote: Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.
Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves.
godking wrote: Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.
Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.
"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."
I never said "warmaster" was a chaos title or that Horus fell to chaos before becoming warmaster and I'm not sure how you are getting that from my quote... WTF?
Like, I am really wondering if you have reading comprehension issues or english is not your first language?
I quoted this
"Wrong the Primarchs knew you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping to-day. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the cha-os it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well-prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, funda-mental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have tak-en great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatu-ral. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Super-natural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature. "
Then you said this
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of chaos.
This was quoted before his fall. So I was right in using the quote but then you came up with this:
"When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
This is your quote. I didn't remember the argument well as you didn't say it was a chaos title. but you're still wrong. The quote I wrote was before he turned to chaos In Horus Rising. Then you started to say that he was influenced before then to try and wriggle out of being wrong, you said I miss quote to prove points, but I didn't. I never said that he was warmaster for ages before the HH I said he became warmaster at Ullanor.
My quote:
"No, he became Warmaster at Ullanor, when the Emperor left the Great Crusade. Have you even read the books, I mean that is a really odd thing to get so wrong.
"source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret" This is just your opinion. Why would Malcador tell him if the Emperor told Malcador not to lol
"Magnus damned himself and knew of it at Aghuro before the Heresy and before Nikaea."
Yes. After Horus became warmaster after Ullanor, he did START to fall to chaos. I don't see how I was claiming that "warmaster" was a chaos title or that he fell to chaos before he became warmaster.
Again, nothing I've said even implies that.
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
w1zard wrote: Yes. After Horus became warmaster after Ullanor, he did START to fall to chaos. I don't see how I was claiming that "warmaster" was a chaos title or that he fell to chaos before he became warmaster.
Again, nothing I've said even implies that.
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about the true nature of CHAOS in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.
I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.
I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.
godking wrote: {Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]
'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}
Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.
godking wrote: 90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.
That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.
"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"
I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.
We are getting off-topic at this point though....
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?
And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?
Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.
Its obvious why the emperor chose Dorn over Perturabo to build his palace,
Dorn might be a slightly lesser siegemaster but has none of the hangups that Perturabo has.
If i had to work on a project and had the choice between a guy like Perturabo or a guy like Dorn to work with i would chose Dorn.
Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.
Dorn only started building defences in the palace when the HH started, so he didn't chose Dorn of Perty. Out of all the traitor Primarch Perty was the only one that still cared for humanity and even cared for all the other loyalist Astartes.
‘I have this hour spoken to the Imperial Regent, Malcador the Sigillite, via machine-call vox,’ said
the primarch. ‘It was my affirmation to him that, despite the dedication you have shown to the
Emperor in braving the gauntlet to carry forth your warning, the Council of Terra cannot be fully
certain where the loyalties of such men ultimately lie.’ There was a hard edge to Dorn’s voice, but for
the first time Garro sensed the tension in him. It was not easy for the primarch to utter such words to
fellow Astartes. ‘My orders were to return to Terra to bulwark the planet’s defences and it seems that
I may have to do that in order to resist my own brothers.’ He glanced at Garro. ‘I will attend the
Imperial Palace and brief the Emperor on this grave news. You, the refugees from the Vengeful Spirit
and all the Astartes from the Eisenstein, will remain in secure holding at the Somnus Citadel on Luna
until our master decides what your fate will be.’" - flight of the eisenstein.
Perty letting the Iron Hands escape:
"There will be some,’said Forrix, moving to the surveyor station and linking it to the launch decks. ‘A few will have reached saviour pods, but some are still out in the void aboard Stormbirds and torpedoes. There’re bound to be more left aboard the wreck too. I’m launching a full spread of rescue craft.’ Perturabo watched as the Trident began re-establishing control throughout the Iron Blood, establishing a contravallation of picket ships and organising the rescue effort for the crew of the Andronicus. Thousands had died in its sudden, merciless demise, but Forrix could yet save hundreds with his unmatched logistical nous. He watched the Iron Hands vessel twist on its axis, more agile than anything that ugly had a right to be. Still bleeding a tail of ignited plasma and mag-locked debris, the Sisypheum arced down towards a knot of storm clouds that looked to offer no easy way through. ‘My lord,’said Kroeger, his fingertips hovering over fire control. ‘Do we shoot now?’ ‘No,’said Perturabo. ‘Leave them. They’ve earned that much." - angel exterminatus
Perty not hating the Legions:
"Unlike many of his brothers, Perturabo did not hate the Legions that had remained true to the Emperor. They were tools with which their father had carved out his empire, warriors as abused as Perturabo’s sons, but too stubborn or too blind to see it. The Iron Hands were an honourable Legion, but they had changed in the centuries since Perturabo and his brother primarchs had each made that climb to the crenellated peak of the Astartes Tower to swear their oaths of moment" - angel exterminatus.
Dorn does have bad hang ups, he was constantly going into rages and had a very short temper.
He didn't work on his personality because he was very insular, he spent time creating little clock work warhound models and was obsessed with the minutia of details in perfecting something. He was still a deep thinker.
I respect Perturabo a lot.
This disproves nothing about Perturabo.
I have read the same novels that you have.
Yes Perturabo did not hate the Loyalist legion EXCEPT the imperial fists.
He was still a stubborn insular selfish donkey-cave who activelly chose to shut people out and then complains about not being recognized for his actions.
First his foster family, then the emperor and his brother primarchs.
His one sided personal feud with Dorn is a perfect example of the bad qualities of Perturabo on display.
Dorn has LESS personal hangups then Perturabo had and unlike Perturabo was able to see his failings and was willing to work on them as much as he could.
Perturabo is a classic example of the old saying "If everyone you meet is an donkey-cave then you are the donkey-cave"
I respect Perturabo for his Will and Brilliance i dislike him for his selfish martyr complex and stubborness.
godking wrote: Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?
He doesn't.
godking wrote: And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?
He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected.
godking wrote: Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.
Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves.
godking wrote: Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.
Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.
"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."
I never said "warmaster" was a chaos title or that Horus fell to chaos before becoming warmaster and I'm not sure how you are getting that from my quote... WTF?
Like, I am really wondering if you have reading comprehension issues or english is not your first language?
He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected
Was he or does HE FEEL that he was spat on and disrespected ? Remember this is a guy who started an one sided feud with Dorn because Dorn disagreed with him,
How much was being "spat on and disrespected" and how much was Perturabo's own ego and Martyr complex.
Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves
Can you give examples of other Legion themselves actually claiming they did the entire things themselves ?
Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.
He actively pushed people away and then blamed them for not recognizing his brilliance and hard work..
Brilliant Yes
Hard working Yes
Massive ego coupled with a martyr complex where he is always in the right and everybody else just fails to grasp his brilliance yes.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.
I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.
That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.
I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.
That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.
Yeah that sounds good until you realise that there is no lore that says anything about Horus being influenced just after Ullanor.
"After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero."
'After he became warmaster he started being influenced by chaos' - there is no lore stating that
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
The Astartes influencing Horus happened in false gods not Ullanor or shortly after. So I don't know how you can think he didn't think that Horus became warmaster when he turned to chaos.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.
I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.
That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.
Yeah that sounds good until you realise that there is no lore that says anything about Horus being influenced just after Ullanor.
"After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero."
'After he became warmaster he started being influenced by chaos' - there is no lore stating that
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
The Astartes influencing Horus happened in false gods not Ullanor or shortly after. So I don't know how you can think he didn't think that Horus became warmaster when he turned to chaos.
except there is, Erebus had shown up around that time and was acting as an advisor, what do you think this guy was doing? He was paving the way. There was also the Legion lodges, that Horus knew of and gave tact approval of (and may even have watched their meetings) So yes, saying the seeds had been sown years earlier is certainly correct. You place too muchy focus on direct quotes Delvarus and are lousy at reading between the lines
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.
You said this:
After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.
But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.
Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.
I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.
That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.
Yeah that sounds good until you realise that there is no lore that says anything about Horus being influenced just after Ullanor.
"After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero."
'After he became warmaster he started being influenced by chaos' - there is no lore stating that
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "
The Astartes influencing Horus happened in false gods not Ullanor or shortly after. So I don't know how you can think he didn't think that Horus became warmaster when he turned to chaos.
except there is, Erebus had shown up around that time and was acting as an advisor, what do you think this guy was doing? He was paving the way. There was also the Legion lodges, that Horus knew of and gave tact approval of (and may even have watched their meetings) So yes, saying the seeds had been sown years earlier is certainly correct. You place too muchy focus on direct quotes Delvarus and are lousy at reading between the lines
Yes Erebus made the lodges, but he or any other lodges where not directly influencing Horus, it wasn't until False Gods that happened and he was being specific with the astertes influencing him that happened in False Gods and these quotes were all written because of the fact that I posted a quote that Horus said in Horus Rising and wizard thought that that was when he had already turned, we were talking about direct quotes there was no reading between the lines. and if you are reading between the lines you need to say 'I think this happened' rather than 'this happened.' I think if I was anyone else you'd be agreeing with me. Anyhow he stated I use the lore when its not relevant, which isn't the case, so believe what you want about what he supposedly meant.
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.
No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.
Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.
No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.
Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.
Mate I'm not going to argue with you its too frustrating, at least the other people on here can keep up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArbitorIan wrote: Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?
You only have something to say when everyone else does.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.
No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.
Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.
Mate I'm not going to argue with you its too frustrating, at least the other people on here can keep up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArbitorIan wrote: Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?
You only have something to say when everyone else does.
<REMOVED - RULE #1 PEOPLE> U keep posting questions and shouting down anyone who disagrees with, especially if they don’t agree with your dogmatic obsession with the lore.
I could quote to you the entire section of the rogue trader book on the emperor. It would tell you that the emperor was a immortal born of normal parents who hid his powers until the 31st millennium where he guided the psychicly awakening human race and crafted the imperium we know. It would tell you how he was so drained by his efforts that he has to sit in a life preserving throne using only his will to protect mankind from the perils of psychic knowledge. Unable to move at all. And that the throne is a life form in itself contstructed by the emperor. Self repairing and evolving. No deal with chaos. No mention of such heresey.
I have chapter approved articles that state there were 20 original space marine “chapters”, not legions! And only 7 of them remain. And the last the last founding was in 738 (m41).
But I can’t be bothered typing it all up. But it shows you at least, that the text you so vehemently extol is, in reality, a transient telling of an ever changing story. There is in effect no lore.
I for one do not subscribe to the idea that pius was a perpetual. He was a normal guardsman who helped save the emperor. I do subscribe to the emperor being the personification of earthly shaman and the star child theory. I believe that if there was a pact with chaos then we will never know the truth of it because anyone discussing it in any book will have good reason to lie and will be unreliable.
This is the beauty of it. It’s a game. It’s made up. Pick the bits you like. Leave the bits you don’t. But don’t tell someone their version is wrong. It can’t be. It’s theirs.
As me not being able to keep up, you haven’t actually set off anywhere mate. U have just sat throwing your toys out of the Pham while many people try to point you in the right direction.
rogue trader and second edition are not part of the current "lore cannon" Andy, utterly silly bringing them in. especially when it's a poor argument. right now we do not have eneugh evidance to say what happened. we can say what "the evidance suggests" but frankly until the HH series is finished there are some things I caution about taking as gospel because a lot of our sources here are from people whom are well.. dishonest
My reason for bringing in 1sr edition fluff was to demonstrate that the fluff changes. There aren’t any facts. It’s all stories. And who dictates what’s canon and what’s not. It’s a fantasy setting. Black library could release a book next year that contradicts all of it. If you actually read the section on the emperor in rogue trader it fits the current fluff well, it’s just as if it was being explained to a normal citizen who isn’t aware of chaos and demons and traitorous spacemarines. It’s just brushes over those bits but otherwise fits.
Everyone telling any stories about the heresey era has an agenda and an internal bias of some sort. I hope we never got answers. But either way I will still enjoy the fluff I like. All the games my group play take part in our own sector and planet we invented and all that matters fluff wise is what the people in our ongoing story know. Their understanding of events will be unique to them and determined by their bias and their experiences. That’s the beauty of it.
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pm713 wrote: You can't really "not subscribe" to the idea that Pius was Perpetual. It's canon now.
You can choose to ignore it like I do in places but there's no point in trying to imply that it's a muddy subject at all.
Ito not muddy to me. He doesn’t come up often in our games or fluff in our campaigns but if he did he would still be a normal guardsman that died saving the emperor. I just ignore the “canon” or “lore”. Who’s to say I can’t? 40k is set in a big universe. Who’s to say that the people who live in the bit our games are set in know that version. Most normal humans aren’t aware of chaos or daemons or perpetuals. So that’s what’s canon in my games. U can’t say I’m wrong in my made up stories. I made them up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: You can't really "not subscribe" to the idea that Pius was Perpetual. It's canon now.
You can choose to ignore it like I do in places but there's no point in trying to imply that it's a muddy subject at all.
Used to be canon that he wasn’t. Then a terminator saved the emperor. Then a custodes. Canon isn’t permanent. Look at star wars.
for all we know by the time of the siege he IS a normal guardsman who gets killed. or he's a perpetual whom Horus actually outright kills and we know he was special and his being killed was an "impressive feat" but no one else does
BrianDavion wrote: for all we know by the time of the siege he IS a normal guardsman who gets killed. or he's a perpetual whom Horus actually outright kills and we know he was special and his being killed was an "impressive feat" but no one else does
Exactly. Canon changes. On the planet my games happen on. He was just a normal guy and is now the saint we all know and love. That’s all that’s really known. And if you asked the locals on that world about the emperors deal with chaos they would be baffled as they haven’t heard of it.
BrianDavion wrote: for all we know by the time of the siege he IS a normal guardsman who gets killed. or he's a perpetual whom Horus actually outright kills and we know he was special and his being killed was an "impressive feat" but no one else does
Exactly. Canon changes. On the planet my games happen on. He was just a normal guy and is now the saint we all know and love. That’s all that’s really known. And if you asked the locals on that world about the emperors deal with chaos they would be baffled as they haven’t heard of it.
right, the only people who know he was a perpetual are US. what people know isn't always the same thing as what we know. This is doubly important for the heresy as we're looking at novels that have changed quite a bit of what we know, and trying to cludge them into what little we know of what comes next.
trying to declare what WILL happen at the siege of Terra seems pretty futile. for all we know Horus was killed when Abbaddon backstabbed him and the emperor got enthroned due to partying too hard at the victory party.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.
No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.
Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.
Mate I'm not going to argue with you its too frustrating, at least the other people on here can keep up.
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ArbitorIan wrote: Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?
You only have something to say when everyone else does.
<REMOVED - RULE #1 PEOPLE> U keep posting questions and shouting down anyone who disagrees with, especially if they don’t agree with your dogmatic obsession with the lore.
I could quote to you the entire section of the rogue trader book on the emperor. It would tell you that the emperor was a immortal born of normal parents who hid his powers until the 31st millennium where he guided the psychicly awakening human race and crafted the imperium we know. It would tell you how he was so drained by his efforts that he has to sit in a life preserving throne using only his will to protect mankind from the perils of psychic knowledge. Unable to move at all. And that the throne is a life form in itself contstructed by the emperor. Self repairing and evolving. No deal with chaos. No mention of such heresey.
I have chapter approved articles that state there were 20 original space marine “chapters”, not legions! And only 7 of them remain. And the last the last founding was in 738 (m41).
But I can’t be bothered typing it all up. But it shows you at least, that the text you so vehemently extol is, in reality, a transient telling of an ever changing story. There is in effect no lore.
I for one do not subscribe to the idea that pius was a perpetual. He was a normal guardsman who helped save the emperor. I do subscribe to the emperor being the personification of earthly shaman and the star child theory. I believe that if there was a pact with chaos then we will never know the truth of it because anyone discussing it in any book will have good reason to lie and will be unreliable.
This is the beauty of it. It’s a game. It’s made up. Pick the bits you like. Leave the bits you don’t. But don’t tell someone their version is wrong. It can’t be. It’s theirs.
As me not being able to keep up, you haven’t actually set off anywhere mate. U have just sat throwing your toys out of the Pham while many people try to point you in the right direction.
Yeah I think I was the one that called you out on reading comprehension on our debate in another thread lol,
"You are judging them by your standards, its so ridiculous that you are trying to say that you cannot understand the gods but you constantly say what the gods think or what they want. I listed what i 'thought' the order of their knowledge was. Saying who has the most is not quantifying, I'm saying who has the most not measuring their knowledge. How do you know what chaos care about? I didn't say the warp had infrastructure, I said they cared about the infrastructure in the materium during the HH. Otherwise why would they command Horus to take worlds and forge worlds. I do think and know that Chaos don't behave in a way that we do' but that doesn't mean nothing they do is dome in the same way or is similar and or, which is understandable to us. Khorne likes to martial combat, so do humans that's something we have in common which, we can understand, Tzeentch seeks knowledge that's something we have in common and we can understand. The gods are created from our emotions. Inviting people to be told their wrong, nonsense, I always end up doing that in all my threads because people are always getting the lore wrong. no they aren't, I back up all my points with the lore quotes or facts, I rarely have conversation where I don't, in this case its subjective though No you've missed the point of the Heresy, your knowledge of the lore is poor. They do have physical rules binding them, they can literally be binded, they cannot survive for ling in the materium, they can be banished, they can only take our souls if we bargain them. They cannot come into our universe any time they want, the Emperor battles them in the warp, so not everything is possible in the warp, daemons cannot go in the presence of the astronomicon, the gods cannot go into the other gods realms. The heresy was not planned and schemed up by tzeentch it was a collective plan, Eugene Temba was possessed by Nurgle, Khorne tried to turn Sanguinius etc. No where in the lore does it say Tzeentch planed it. You have terrible reading comprehension, the gods did need for things to be shifted from one place to the other in the MATERIUM during the HORUS HERESY. Yes I only ever said that infrastructure mattered in the materium or eye of terror, my original point is that they CARE about those infrastructures in the MATERIUM, jesus
"(why people keep doing that...) Listen I'm not debating you because you are seriously dense.
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BrianDavion wrote: rogue trader and second edition are not part of the current "lore cannon" Andy, utterly silly bringing them in. especially when it's a poor argument. right now we do not have eneugh evidance to say what happened. we can say what "the evidance suggests" but frankly until the HH series is finished there are some things I caution about taking as gospel because a lot of our sources here are from people whom are well.. dishonest
HH quotes are gospel if they haven't been contradicted by new fluff. Dishonest, I love this more accusations, but its hard to take them seriously when 'no one' out of the whole lot of you can quote me at least once being dishonest ot all the other accusations, I can quote a whole list of people here getting the lore wrong though lol All I asked was what did the Emperor lose in taking the deal with chaos. People brought up other lore that I disagreed with.
"or thats what Horus says, presumably chaos told him that so we can't take that as gospel. I'm honestly half expecting the HH series to end with a suprise revelation that suggests there are things at work here we didn't know about."
Like what you said^ which isn't true because Sureka is the one telling the story and she is a non-biased servant of the Emperor. See what I mean and then you all start invoking 'subtlety and nuance' You have Chaos saying it happened and a servant of the Emperor, its really not rocket science. This isn't some vague tentative grip on the lore that I'm using to try and prove you wrong lol But this is what you people do, and then you all band together because it makes you feel better about yourselves. You say you can't take lore as gospel but in every other argument on these threads you use it as gospel to prove other people wrong. Show me the dishonesty lol I tell you that you are wrong, you tell me you can't take HH as gospel, can you not see how ridiculous you're being."John Grammaticus met the Cabal' - 'You can't take that as gospel because he could be lying.' this is how ridiculous you all sound to me. The fact is the lore says this happened, unless some other lore is written that says Sureka is lying or is an impostor then we have to rely on the lore we have and the lore we have here is pretty explicit. I'm not interested in 'this might be a lie' as there is no evidence to suggest that, if you want to have an argument about whether its true or not that's fine but I'm not interested in that because then everything in the lore is subject to 'is that true', 'did the Horus heresy actually happen or is it just the Emperors dream.' lol Seriously though read the book, or read it again if you've forgotten, there is no 'did this really happen' expressed or implied, you are just evoking that because you don't like being told you are wrong about a piece of lore. This being a lie ect. has no evidence to back it up, it is purely your subjective opinion, maybe you are just saying that not to be wrong about the lore or you don't like the idea of the Emperor taking powers from the gods, but its either one of those.
I just ultimately think that we can't count on Molech being what it seems to be. most of our information on it is eaither conjecture or from chaos itself, and frankly I'm not sure how reliable I find that., IMHO ANY info on the Emperor these days needs to be presented with a giant "this is our best guess based on what we see, but it could be completely wrong" astirix beside it. as it is, we can't be sure the emperor is a perpetual. we can't even be sure the emperor is really the actual emepror (more and more I wonder if he's some sort of psykic contruct of Malcador)
BrianDavion wrote: I just ultimately think that we can't count on Molech being what it seems to be. most of our information on it is eaither conjecture or from chaos itself, and frankly I'm not sure how reliable I find that., IMHO ANY info on the Emperor these days needs to be presented with a giant "this is our best guess based on what we see, but it could be completely wrong" astirix beside it. as it is, we can't be sure the emperor is a perpetual. we can't even be sure the emperor is really the actual emepror (more and more I wonder if he's some sort of psykic contruct of Malcador)
Its not conjecture, its the testimony of the eye witness Sureka and conjecture on Erebus and Horus' part, which is corroborated by Sureka's testimony. Plus the lore has been developed around this, with Erebus it was conjecture then this came out adding facts to the lore. If it was supposed to be conjecture, It would be written as such.
"IMHO ANY info on the Emperor these days needs to be presented with a giant "this is our best guess based on what we see, but it could be completely wrong" Not at all, we 'know' he fought Horus, we know he is sitting on the golden throne etc.
Of course He is a perpetual. The lore has stated He has been around for many thousands of years and He has shown one of the Custodians a vision of Him as a boy killing his uncle. If that was a lie why would The Emperor bother showing the Custodian anything in the first place.
There are of course many types of Perpetual. Some respawn on the spot. Some respawn elsewhere entirely. Some are psychic. Some are not.
All of which clearly have a “strong soul” that doesn’t just evaporate into the Warp upon death.
“HH quotes are gospel”. - WRONG.
Personal testimony is unbiased- WRONG. Everyone has an internal bias. She’s a loyal servant of the emperor? Is that not a bias?
That’s your main problem. Call me dense? Have a word! It’s one series of novels telling a story that’s been told in dozens of other places and ways. There is no gospel. There are no facts.
Reading comprehension isn’t just the ability to withdraw information from a text but to interpret context and demonstrate understanding of the text as a whole. As in understand what isn’t being said and what it means. U seem unable to do this. It’s bizaar really, how rigid you are in the text.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have you noticed Delvarus that if you take out your posts in this thread you have a group of people having a nice chat about the fluff. No one arguing or getting cross or saying they are “butthurt”? Is everyone else the problem? Or is it just u?
Andykp wrote: “HH quotes are gospel”. - WRONG.
Personal testimony is unbiased- WRONG. Everyone has an internal bias. She’s a loyal servant of the emperor? Is that not a bias?
That’s your main problem. Call me dense? Have a word! It’s one series of novels telling a story that’s been told in dozens of other places and ways. There is no gospel. There are no facts.
Reading comprehension isn’t just the ability to withdraw information from a text but to interpret context and demonstrate understanding of the text as a whole. As in understand what isn’t being said and what it means. U seem unable to do this. It’s bizaar really, how rigid you are in the text.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have you noticed Delvarus that if you take out your posts in this thread you have a group of people having a nice chat about the fluff. No one arguing or getting cross or saying they are “butthurt”? Is everyone else the problem? Or is it just u?
It is gospel if the writer is explicit in their meaning and if it hasn't been contradicted by other lore. I never said personal testimony is unbiased, but explain the bias in Sureka saying that, is she just making it up and risking her life protecting the gateway from Horus who ends up killing her for the lols of it. She biased on the loyal side but Horus and Erebus are biased on the Chaos side and both corroborate the same story. There is no interpretation to this certain instance. Your constant arguing point is 'interpretation' (learn another word) that's why It's pointless arguing with you, if you don't take anything as fact its pointless. Its a fact the Emperor is on the golden throne but not to you, to you he's surfing on a golden surf board because interpretation. When things are implicit, inferred, implied etc. then it opens up to interpretation, or if you are having an argument say, what do you think the Emperor lost in the deal to chaos, that is interpretation, citing and arguing about explicit instances in the lore is NOT interpretation. Nearly everyone on this thread I've proven wrong in one thread and another, like you, I was having an argument in another thread with you and now you've come here, to give me gak. I don't mind people telling me I'm wrong bring it on, makes for a better argument, but most people here have said I do this and that, I use quotes out of context or use lore that has nothing to do with the subject, blah blah blah, and not a single one of them can quote a single instance where I've done that so yeah it is butthurtness, if they find a few instances where I have done that then I be happy to admit, maybe I do do that. I keep asking for proof but none comes. I can be an inscrutable donkey-cave the way I come across, but none of its personal, even with you we've insulted each other and I don't care, its been fun, I'm not going to hold it against you, but people take things far too seriously. Take Formosa we've been done this road before, I've called him a liar before, we've insulted one another and had a heated debate and then in other threads I act like it never happened and I agree with him on points and vice versa. I'm a bit wrong in the head, I literally don't care.
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Mellow wrote: Of course He is a perpetual. The lore has stated He has been around for many thousands of years and He has shown one of the Custodians a vision of Him as a boy killing his uncle. If that was a lie why would The Emperor bother showing the Custodian anything in the first place.
There are of course many types of Perpetual. Some respawn on the spot. Some respawn elsewhere entirely. Some are psychic. Some are not.
All of which clearly have a “strong soul” that doesn’t just evaporate into the Warp upon death.
Plus his gifts that he imparted to the Primarchs come from him. He used his own DNA to make them. Granted there is some warp fuckery going on with the Primarch project as well but most of the other Primarchs gifts have been attributed to his own abilities, so It would be odd if he wasn't a perpetual. I didn't even say the Emperor was a perpetual in this thread anyways, I said Sureka was a perpetual. Arbitorlan misread what I said.
Well that’s where we differ then. I like discussions rather than arguments. Discussions where ideas can be past around and built upon. Interpretations are vital in discussing works of fiction, it’s all we have. U interpret very very literally and because of that you miss things. When people see them you just say they are wrong and throw an out of context quote at them.
I come on these threads to discuss the background of the game I love. I am a very narrative player and the back ground is important to me. I like to discuss it. U seem to like to like to argue about the black library books. Maybe you should do it on that forum because the background is made up of much more than those books.
I promise you I’m not sore in the butt. I don’t like seeing you ruining the fun for everyone. So I call you out on your behaviour and will do again. I will be back as I like this section of the forum. I don’t visit the black library one. So is this a discussion of the back ground or just a chance for you to demonstrate what hh books you’ve read.
Andykp wrote: Well that’s where we differ then. I like discussions rather than arguments. Discussions where ideas can be past around and built upon. Interpretations are vital in discussing works of fiction, it’s all we have. U interpret very very literally and because of that you miss things. When people see them you just say they are wrong and throw an out of context quote at them.
I come on these threads to discuss the background of the game I love. I am a very narrative player and the back ground is important to me. I like to discuss it. U seem to like to like to argue about the black library books. Maybe you should do it on that forum because the background is made up of much more than those books.
I promise you I’m not sore in the butt. I don’t like seeing you ruining the fun for everyone. So I call you out on your behaviour and will do again. I will be back as I like this section of the forum. I don’t visit the black library one. So is this a discussion of the back ground or just a chance for you to demonstrate what hh books you’ve read.
I don't interpret literally at all, when something is implicit I'll interpret it in many ways. I love to argue, nothing wrong with that. I don't ruin the fun for anyone, people still comment, they wouldn't comment if they weren't having fun unless it was their ego making them continue. "demonstrate what hh books you’ve read." baseless look through my comments and threads, people ask me for quotes and evidence I give them it, we all like showing how much we know but I don't just express what I know, just because I have a vast knowledge on the HH series doesn't mean I have arguments just to show that, I'll have a discussion but if someone says something that isn't right I'll correct them like EVERY single person does on this website. I happen to do it more than average and that pisses people off, but they have no compunction about doing the same thing but for me its a far more extreme indictment when I do it and everyone conveniently forgets that the threads are plastered with their own 'you're wrong' comments. Its quite funny actually.
Fair enough, then we will keep clashing but if that’s what you like then that’s your business. I will keep saying you’re wrong when you are and you can keep quoting stuff at people who aren’t bothered. Enjoy.
Andykp wrote: Well that’s where we differ then. I like discussions rather than arguments. Discussions where ideas can be past around and built upon. Interpretations are vital in discussing works of fiction, it’s all we have. U interpret very very literally and because of that you miss things. When people see them you just say they are wrong and throw an out of context quote at them.
I come on these threads to discuss the background of the game I love. I am a very narrative player and the back ground is important to me. I like to discuss it. U seem to like to like to argue about the black library books. Maybe you should do it on that forum because the background is made up of much more than those books.
I promise you I’m not sore in the butt. I don’t like seeing you ruining the fun for everyone. So I call you out on your behaviour and will do again. I will be back as I like this section of the forum. I don’t visit the black library one. So is this a discussion of the back ground or just a chance for you to demonstrate what hh books you’ve read.
is there a black library forum? *is mildy curious*
Anyway Don't let Del drive you away man if you enjoy discussing things.
Thing is we do need to be careful with the novels. there is at least one confirmed bit of "no they where just blowing smoke" in the novels. ADB has confirmed that the Word Bearers where "incorrect" in their speculation that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost two chapters.
No there isn’t! No black library forum. No idea where I got that from. Was sure there was? Maybe it was the beer or painkillers! Or both!!! I’m going nowhere. Like I said. Background is why I love 40k. Fingers crossed they don’t answer all the questions in these books. Maybe in the last book the emperor will wake up and it was all a dream!
No it'll all be a simulation run by Old Ones to see if a plan would work. The final sentence of 40k lore will be "So they chucked plan Five on the no pile".
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
Thank god! (Gods!). Thought I was the one missing the point for a minute. Glad to hear it’s not just me who sees this. Thank you for explaining in a much more concise and eloquent way than I could.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
Abaddon is the one who tells Loken that Erebus created the lodges way back and Sejunus' death shows that they were around before Ullanor yes I've qouted and detailed this all ready in the thread. Yeah Horus is biased but if everyone would actually read the book its Sureka that tells the story of the Emperor going to Molech for powers so we have one biased conjecture from Horus and someone who was actually with the Emperor and is the Emperors servant telling the same story. So its irrelevant that Horus is biased. This is why everyone disagrees, because they argue on the matter of a novel they haven't even read and that is why so many people are disagreeing with me, and its here in the quotes of this thread, because everyone was arguing on the basis of Horus being biased, which is irrelevant if you've actually read the book and people are still arguing on that basis... It would only be relevant if Horus was the only one telling the story of the Emperor in Molech, but no you have Horus and a completely different source that has no Chaos bias like Horus, she is a servant of the Emperor, Jesus... Read the book before debating on it, this is getting so comical now, because if you did you'd know about Sureka you wouldn't focus on Horus that is familiar to you.
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Earth127 wrote: If you're gna go into a discsussion saying I'm gna ignore the text and only subtext expect people to disagree with you.
Where have I ignored the text... Subtext lol I take these sort of accusations seriously when people show me evidence of them, otherwise its akin to listening to gibberish.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
Thank god! (Gods!). Thought I was the one missing the point for a minute. Glad to hear it’s not just me who sees this. Thank you for explaining in a much more concise and eloquent way than I could.
You are missing the point lol read the comment above^
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?
Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.
BrianDavion wrote: he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
It's no use. He has his own idea of what the lore is and if you think differently than him you're wrong. If you make direct quotes, he says that you are ignoring subtext, and if you try to argue subtext he just says "lol show me where it says that".
BrianDavion wrote: he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
It's no use. He has his own idea of what the lore is and if you think differently than him you're wrong. If you make direct quotes, he says that you are ignoring subtext, and if you try to argue subtext he just says "lol show me where it says that".
I never once said you or anyone here was ignoring the subtext. I never say that, its what everyone here is saying that I do lol
"So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising" You said that as your opinion, you never posted one fact to back that up.
here this is what you said
"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear."
where exactly is the quote from any book and where is any evidence whatsoever lol right when he started to be influenced by chaos, yeah right when was just before Davin, and 'Influenced Astartes stated surrounding him and whispering in his ear' yeah that happened in False Gods. These people can try and argue for you, but you know exactly what you said and that's why you kept quite and let them do the arguing for you lol. You know it won't kill you to admit you're wrong. I've even done it at times and I know how much the people on here hate me lol and wish they could see me humbled. Courage and Honour my brother.
You are just making things up lol You do know everything you've said is documented on this thread... These people are trying to protect you, but its all there quoted, you were wrong and you are basking in their protection, you all band together and try to stroke your wounded pride, its so sad. But none of you's can ever be wrong because 'interpretation' he's just being too 'literal to the actual lore.' lol ah, I'm having fun.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.
.
Ohh REALLY?
let's borrow a page from your book and provide some QUOTES shall we?
Spoiler:
"‘And it seems my wisest option is to return to Terra and confront the Council on the issue of taxation.’
Sanguinius sniggered.
‘I was not wrought to do that,’ Horus said.
‘Then we should consider the interex, lord,’ said Erebus.
EREBUS, OF THE Word Bearers Legion, the XVII, had joined them a fortnight earlier as part of the contingent brought by Varvarus. In his stone-grey Mark IV plate, inscribed with bas-relief legacies of his deeds, Erebus was a sombre, serious figure. His rank in the XVII was first chaplain, roughly equivalent to that of Abaddon or Eidolon. He was a senior commander of that Legion, close to Kor Phaeron and the primarch, Lorgar, himself. His quiet manner and soft, composed voice commanded instant respect from all who met him, but the Luna Wolves had embraced him anyway. The Wolves had historically enjoyed a relationship with the Bearers as close as the one they had formed with the Emperor’s Children. It was no coincidence that Horus counted Lorgar amongst his most intimate brothers, alongside Fulgrim and Sanguinius.
Erebus, who time had fashioned as much into a statesman as a warrior, both of which duties he performed with superlative skill, had come to find the Warmaster at the behest of his Legion. Evidently, he had a favour to crave, a request to make. One did not send Erebus except to broker terms.
However, on his arrival, Erebus had understood immediately the pressure laid at Horus’s door, the countless voices screaming for attention. He had shelved his reason for coming, wishing to add nothing to the Warmaster’s already immense burden, and had instead acted as a solid counsel and advisor with no agenda of his own."
(This BTW is from the point of view of Gavriel Loken, I think it's safe to say that the "no agenda of his own" was incorrect)
BTW if you want a PAGE referance that's at the end of page 264 and the top of page 265 of Horus Rising (epub edition)
So yes, Erebus was indeed acting as an advisor. in a high level meeting discussing what courses of action to take that involved Two PRIMARCHS. Erebus was actively involved.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.
.
Ohh REALLY?
let's borrow a page from your book and provide some QUOTES shall we?
Spoiler:
"‘And it seems my wisest option is to return to Terra and confront the Council on the issue of taxation.’
Sanguinius sniggered.
‘I was not wrought to do that,’ Horus said.
‘Then we should consider the interex, lord,’ said Erebus.
EREBUS, OF THE Word Bearers Legion, the XVII, had joined them a fortnight earlier as part of the contingent brought by Varvarus. In his stone-grey Mark IV plate, inscribed with bas-relief legacies of his deeds, Erebus was a sombre, serious figure. His rank in the XVII was first chaplain, roughly equivalent to that of Abaddon or Eidolon. He was a senior commander of that Legion, close to Kor Phaeron and the primarch, Lorgar, himself. His quiet manner and soft, composed voice commanded instant respect from all who met him, but the Luna Wolves had embraced him anyway. The Wolves had historically enjoyed a relationship with the Bearers as close as the one they had formed with the Emperor’s Children. It was no coincidence that Horus counted Lorgar amongst his most intimate brothers, alongside Fulgrim and Sanguinius.
Erebus, who time had fashioned as much into a statesman as a warrior, both of which duties he performed with superlative skill, had come to find the Warmaster at the behest of his Legion. Evidently, he had a favour to crave, a request to make. One did not send Erebus except to broker terms.
However, on his arrival, Erebus had understood immediately the pressure laid at Horus’s door, the countless voices screaming for attention. He had shelved his reason for coming, wishing to add nothing to the Warmaster’s already immense burden, and had instead acted as a solid counsel and advisor with no agenda of his own."
(This BTW is from the point of view of Gavriel Loken, I think it's safe to say that the "no agenda of his own" was incorrect)
BTW if you want a PAGE referance that's at the end of page 264 and the top of page 265 of Horus Rising (epub edition)
So yes, Erebus was indeed acting as an advisor. in a high level meeting discussing what courses of action to take that involved Two PRIMARCHS. Erebus was actively involved.
Because Horus would have known about the stealing of the Anatheme, he would also know the plan on Davin in false gods:
"Why then had the Word Bearers brought them here again?
Some hours before, on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, Maloghurst had activated the data-slate he held in his twisted claw of a hand,
the skin fused and wet pink, despite the best efforts of the Legion apothecaries to restore it. He had scanned the contents of the
communique within the slate once more, angry at the turn of phrase used by the petitioner.
He did not relish the prospect of showing the message to the Warmaster and briefly wondered if he could ignore it or pretend the
missive had never come before him, but Maloghurst had not risen to become the Warmaster's equerry by insulating him from bad
news. He sighed, these days the words of bland administrators carried the weight of the Emperor and, as much as Maloghurst wanted
to, he could not ignore this message in particular.
The Warmaster would never agree to it, but Maloghurst had to tell him. In a moment of weakness, Maloghurst turned and limped
across the Strategium deck towards the Warmaster's sanctum chamber. He would leave the slate on the Warmaster's table, for him to
find in his own time.
The sanctum doors slid smoothly aside, revealing the dark and peaceful interior.
Maloghurst enjoyed the solitude of the sanctum, the coolness of the air easing the pain of his raw skin and twisted spine. The only
sound that broke the stillness of the sanctum was the breath rasping in his throat, the abnormal rearward curvature of his spine placing
undue pressure on his lungs.
Maloghurst shuffled painfully along the length of the smooth surfaced oval table, reaching out to place the slate at its head, where the"
Well he was an adviser I'll admit I got that wrong, though this is quite relevant:
"However, on his arrival, Erebus had understood immediately the pressure laid at Horus’s door, the countless voices screaming for attention. He had shelved his reason for coming, wishing to add nothing to the Warmaster’s already immense burden, and had instead acted as a solid counsel and advisor with no agenda of his own. For this, the Mournival had admired him greatly, and wel-comed him, like Raldoron, into the circle."
but he was only there a fortnight before the interex
"EREBUS, OF THE Word Bearers Legion, the XVII, had joined them a fortnight earlier as part of the contingent brought by Varvarus. In his stone-grey Mark IV plate, inscribed with bas-relief legacies of his deeds, Erebus was a sombre, serious figure. His rank in the XVII was first chaplain, roughly equivalent to that of Abaddon or Eidolon. He was a senior commander of that Legion, close to Kor Phaeron and the primarch, Lorgar, himself"
So no he's still wrong. He was't being influenced until False Gods, he was an adviser two weeks before the interex so even if Erebus was influencing on matters about chaos, it would still mean wizards thought he became warmaster right after Davin lol I do listen to people, you are the only person that has shown actual facts to say I'm wrong in a factual claim or said something so logically sound that I can't dispute it, and I've admitted that, the rest haven't so it probably seems to you that I don't. If someone says, yeah but the subtext, that isn't going to win me over especially when we are making factual claims.
Andykp wrote: So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?
Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.
I don't know why I'm bothering, but...
We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.
So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation.
Andykp wrote: So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?
Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.
I don't know why I'm bothering, but...
We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.
So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation.
Yeah you said we both know the Emperor got something inside, we agree other than that I think he got power, she knows the house of eyes purpose as she knew what Horus got. End of.
Horus knew of the Emperors deal from the Emperor himself, not doe to chaos but the Emperor erased his memory, he went to Molech because of the dreams he was remembering what the Emperor erased from his mind, he killed the Emperors psychic guard, the flaming angel to remember again, so its obvious that Horus knew exactly what the Emperor got especially due to him having it aswell:
"It moved faster than anything Horus had ever known.
Faster than an eldar blade-lord, faster than the megarachnids of Murder, faster than thought. Its body
was mist and light, sound and fury.
A Justaerin was the first to die, his body split down the middle as though he’d run full tilt into a
bandsaw. His body emptied of blood and organs in a heartbeat.
Horus moved before anyone else, slashing his taloned gauntlet at the glittering light. His claws cut
empty air and a golden fist slammed into his stomach. Doubled over, he saw Aximand shooting. The
Widowmaker hunted for a target.
Noctua was down on one knee, clutching his chest. Abaddon ran to his side, a long-bladed sword held
low. Stuttering muzzle flare lit the cavern in strobing bursts. Suit lights swayed and danced. Hard volleys
of mass-reactives shattered crystalline growths, blew out fist-sized lumps of calcified stone. The
Justaerin moved to interpose themselves between their attacker and the Warmaster.
Noctua fired from his knees. Kibre added his combi-bolters to the sweeping barrage, not aiming, just
firing.
They hit nothing.
The cavern was suddenly gloriously illuminated. An angel of fire, with swords of lightning held
outstretched. Faceless, remorseless, Horus recognised it for what it was. A sentinel creature, a final
psychic trap emplaced by the Emperor to destroy those who sought to unpick the secrets of His past.
Horus could barely fix on the beast.
Its radiance was so fierce, so blinding. Its swords unleashed forking blasts of lightning, and Aximand
was hurled across the cavern. His smoking body slammed into a wall. Stone and armour split. Horus
knew the impact trauma was enough to break his spine.
Coruscating blue swords lashed out like whips. Abaddon dived to the side, his pauldron sheared clean
away. A portion of the First Captain’s shoulder remained inside, and bright blood sheeted his arm. One of
the Justaerin took a step towards his downed captain before remembering his place.
The creature turned its gaze upon the Terminator. The warrior staggered. The combi-bolter fell from his
grip as he struggled to tear off his helmet. His screams over the vox were agonised. Liquid light writhed
in the joints of his armour, spilling out in blistering streams of white-green fire.
Horus shucked his taloned gauntlet, slamming shells into the breech of the inbuilt bolters. He often
spoke of the murder-haruspex of Cthonia that led him to the weapon in an arming chamber of a long-dead
warlord. That wasn’t entirely accurate, but the truth was for Horus alone. The gauntlet’s baroque
craftsmanship was unmatched, and though Horus had been little more than a callow youth at the time, the
gauntlet fitted his blood-scabbed hand as though fashioned just for him.
A two metre tongue of flame blazed from the weapon. The recoil was savage, but Urtzi Malevolus had
built his armour well and suspensor compensators kept it on target. Scads of light flew from the angel like
molten steel. Torn from its body, its essence dimmed, dissolution turning it to vapour in seconds.
It shrieked and the air between it and Horus buckled with concussive force. The last Justaerin flew
apart, shattering like an assembly diagram of something vastly complex. His skeleton and internal biology
atomised in a flash burn of intense light.
Horus flew back, as though lifted by a hurricane. He came down hard in the water, its freezing
temperature ramming the breath from him with an explosive fist. His mouth filled with black water.
Throat muscles reacted instantly to seal his lungs and shift breathing to secondary respiratory organs.
He spat black mouthfuls and rose from the water in time to see Abaddon pinned in place by blazing
tridents of lightning. Light poured from the First Captain’s mouth. Kibre’s gunfire sprayed the angel of
fire, surrounding it in swarms of phosphor embers. Enough mass-reactive shells to put down a bull-grox
achieved precisely nothing against the blazing sentinel.
Horus marched from the lake, whips of fire arcing from his talon. Noctua plunged his sword into the
angel’s back. The blade melted in an instant and Noctua cried in pain, clutching his ruined hand. Aximand
crawled towards the fight, spine cracked, legs useless.
Horus didn’t bother to shoot the angel. He killed the power to his talons with a thought. Its essence was
godly and mortal weapons were useless. He reached for his only other option.
The angel spun to face him, releasing Abaddon from its crackling barbs. The First Captain fell to his
front, broiled near death by divine fire.
The angel descended on Horus, wings of bright flame erupting from its back. The swords of lightning
became elongated claws. Furnace heat blazed from its body.
Horus stepped to meet it.
He swung Worldbreaker in an upward arc, like a hammer thrower from an ancient age. A weapon
forged by the Emperor’s own hand, Worldbreaker was a gift from a god. Its killing head buried itself in
the flaming body of the angel.
Only one thing could end this creature, and that was the power that had birthed it.
The angel exploded. Streamers of fire arced from its death like blazing promethium. It shrieked as the
power binding it to this place was shattered. By the time the Warmaster’s maul had completed its swing,
the angel was no more.
Its scream lingered long, echoing throughout the mountain, all across Molech and through uncounted
angles of space and time. The embers of its sun-hot core drifted to the cavern floor like grave-bound
fireflies.
And with its death, Horus remembered Molech.
He remembered everything"
"They met on an island at the centre of an artificial lake. Reflected moonlight wavered on its gently
rippling surface. The location spoke of earlier times in the Legion’s history, before ritual had replaced
tradition. When things had been simpler.
Now it seemed that even that simplicity had been a lie.
A flaming spear rammed into the ground at the centre of the island burned with orange light, bathing the
features of those assembled in a ruddy glow of health that belied their true condition.
Abaddon’s skin was waxy with regenerative balms and fresh-grafted skin. Noctua now boasted a
clicking augmetic for a right hand, while Aximand was supported by a spinal armature while his shattered
vertebrae regrew. Only Falkus Kibre had fought the angel of fire and emerged unscathed.
Maloghurst stood with the Mournival, for once looking like the least wounded among them. Ger
Gerradon and his growing band of Luperci also gathered to hear of the invasion’s next phase.
‘We have achieved great things, my sons, but the hardest fight is yet to come,’ began Horus, circling the
burning spear and placing a hand over the amber eye at his chest. ‘The enemy mass before us, an unbroken
host of men and armour stretching all the way to Iron Fist Mountain. Armies from all across Molech are
gathering, but they will not stop us from reaching Lupercalia.’
Aximand stepped from the circle.
Of course it would be Aximand. He would have fought the coming battle a hundred times already in his
head. Of all his sons, Little Horus Aximand was the most fastidious, the most conscientious. The one
whose thoughts came closest to his own.
‘The numbers do not favour us, my lord,’ said Aximand.
‘Numbers aren’t all that decide a battle,’ pointed out Kibre.
‘I know that, Falkus, but even so, we’re outnumbered nearly fifty to one. Perhaps if the Death Guard
fought with us…’
‘Our brothers of the Fourteenth Legion are poised to be the anvil upon which the hammer of the Sons of
Horus will break the Imperials,’ said Horus.
‘They’ll be with us for the coming fight?’ said Aximand. ‘We can count on that?’
‘Have you ever known Mortarion’s sloggers to fail?’ said Horus.
Aximand nodded, conceding the point. ‘What are your orders?’
‘Simple. We fight for the living and kill for the dead. Isn’t that what you say?’
‘Something like that,’ grinned Aximand.
‘What’s at Lupercalia?’ asked Abaddon, his voice forever burned down to a scorched rasp. ‘What did
you learn from the thing in the cave’s death?’
Horus nodded and said, ‘I remembered why the Emperor came here, what He found and why He didn’t
want anyone else to know about it. Lupercalia is where I’ll find what we need to win this long war.’
‘So what did it show you?’ asked Aximand.
‘All in good time,’ said Horus. ‘But, first, I have a question for you, my sons. Do any of you know how
life began on Old Earth?’
Then after he got the powers, he again said he got the same powers:
Horus smiled at the extra vowel at the end of the honorific. A natural development, given the power that now filled him. Power that had almost cost him his life to obtain. Not that to look at him anyone would know that. The many hurts he had suffered to win Molech had healed years ago it seemed. It was hard to be sure. His sons told him he’d only been gone moments, how could he tell them different? Molech was a far distant memory to Horus now. He’d fought wars, slain monsters and defied gods in those moments. He’d wrested the power of those same gods at the heads of vast armies of daemons. He’d fought in battles that would rage unchecked for all eternity. He’d won a thousand kingdoms within the empyrean, billions of vassals to do with as he pleased, but he’d refused it. Every pleasure and prize was his for the taking, but he’d denied them all. He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god. ‘Sire, what are your orders?’ said Ezekyle. Horus stared at the veil of stars, as though he could see all the way from Molech to Terra. He extended a clawed hand, as though already cupping the precious bauble of humanity’s cradle. ‘I am coming for you, father,’ said Horus.
Why does your evidence have to come from the Emperor, why can't it come from Horus or Sureka. If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does. I've we reserved the same scrutiny with everything we wouldn't be able to say anything in the lore was taken for granted.
Andykp wrote: Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.
So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.
That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.
No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?
Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.
Don’t know where that came from. I was sumerising what was explicitly in the text from surekas point of view. I was summarising your position dev. I didn’t even mention Horus or bias!! Just read the three sentences I wrote. U have said many times that sureka knows this and that’s. And quoted text to prove your point. All sureka “knows” , as in physically witnessed, is that he went in. Came back changed, somehow more powerful. End of. Anything else she knows is hearsay. It’s from what she’s been told by others.
Here’s where you have argued about sub text. U said why would she guard the door for ever and die trying if it weren’t of great importance etc.
So horus is the one telling us that the emperor made a pact with chaos? Can you seriously say that he is a reliable southern of information? Where did he learn of the pact, you say the emperor told him but aerated his memory. Ok. That means he only has dreams to remember. Dreams? Reliable? No.
Next it’s possible that the gods told him of a deal. Reliable, no no no.
Now let back to some subtext. Horus in the massive quote you put up claims to have won his powers by beating armies and taking them from the gods. And he claims to be a “god” himself.
Let’s lookmat that. That is clearly hubris. Sheer arrogance. Do you really believe a mortal (all be it a primaris) could defeat gods and have his way in the warp?
Is it not more possible that the gods allowed him to think this to fuel his ego and drive him on. That they in fact tricked him into thinking he took the powers they gave him? If you say no, he took the powers then you are really saying that Horus was the instigator of the war and the gods were his pawns, when in fact we know for sure that it was the other way round, the gods were calling the shots and Horus was there pawn.
Therefore we must conclude that Horus was gifted his powers but tricked into thinking he had taken them to fuel his ego and further chaos gods goals.
Now, how does this tie intro the emperors deal. Well we now know horus was mislead and due to his immense ego and hubris and daddy issues “thinks” he did better than his dad. But in actual fact we only know what horus thinks happened. He thinks his dad was a wuss and he was nails. In actual fact he is just a rube.
Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.
You also say " If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does.". That's not necessarily true either. The unreliable narrator is a well-known literary device. Regardless, all the passage I quoted above is about how Horus views his experiences so it is inherently unreliable and prone to bias. And once again, if you analyse exactly what Sureka actually knew, for sure, you'll realise it's not very much at all.
Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.
You also say " If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does.". That's not necessarily true either. The unreliable narrator is a well-known literary device. Regardless, all the passage I quoted above is about how Horus views his experiences so it is inherently unreliable and prone to bias. And once again, if you analyse exactly what Sureka actually knew, for sure, you'll realise it's not very much at all.
I never insulted you. I'm not even talking to you. "The unreliable narrator " isn't being employed. Horus knew exactly what he was getting into, but tricked... sure he could have been but where is that relative and there is no real basis for thinking that anyways.
Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.
This is reinforced (or at least proven more muddy) in Wolfsbane, where
Spoiler:
Russ wounds Horus with the Emperor's Spear, a psychic weapon that delivers sudden clarity (cos the emperor is the anti-chaos, geddit?). When Horus is pierced:
"The Warmaster gripped the shaft of the Emperor's Spear, desperate to keep it from cutting deeper. The scream ended, the white-hot light of his wounded soul cut out, and he fell to his knees, head bowed.
When Horus looked up, the unholy aura had gone from around his head. The absolute confidence he had displayed a few moments before was absent. His flesh hung slackly upon his skull. He had aged a thousand years in a moment.
'Russ,' he said hoarsely. 'Russ, my brother.' He smiled. 'I have been unkind to you. You were the second. I should not have been jealous, but I was.'
'Horus?' said Russ. 'I speak with Horus Lupercal?'
Horus closed his eyes and shook his head. 'Leman, Leman, you have been speaking to me since you arrived here,' he said, his voice thick with emotion. 'I have seen it all. I understand. I had to do it. I had to. The Emperor is the greatest evil in the galaxy, but what have I done to stop Him? How many have died… Am I worse than He?'
'Horus,' said Russ urgently. 'Call off your warriors. Let us talk. I will take you back to“Terra. It is not too late.'
'Too late, too late,' said Horus. He looked up at his brother. For a moment their eyes met, and Russ saw nothing but regret in his brother's face. Then Horus smiled, and the regret was replaced by triumph.
Horus took a deep, rumbling breath, the sort taken by men on the cusp of death.
'It is too late, Leman of the Russ,' said Horus. 'Far too late for you.'
'Horus!' shouted Russ. 'Hear me!'
Horus replied so loudly warriors on both sides stumbled and clutched at their ears.
'I hear you, and I defy you.' Horus' words echoed down the aeons, coming from a place beyond time and space. 'This universe will burn as countless others have burned before it! There can be no victory against Chaos. If you cannot accept its power and its glory, then you shall die. The Emperor is doomed. I will kill Him myself."
There's a brief moment where the arrogance is stripped away and Horus is sorry - but then we realise that it's not for what he is doing, but just for the way in which he's had to do it. He really does believe in Chaos now.
Not as much in chaos but in his choice: He does have to kill his father. And considering the Emperor by any means necesarry/ I am the only way personality.
pm713 wrote: I'm more interested in his plan for what to do after killing the Emperor. If I was a Primarch that would the deciding factor in joining him.
I think because unlike Abaddon, he went full chaos and that he'd pretty much, just do the Chaos gods bidding in enslaving mankind and taking the galaxy.
Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.
You also say " If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does.". That's not necessarily true either. The unreliable narrator is a well-known literary device. Regardless, all the passage I quoted above is about how Horus views his experiences so it is inherently unreliable and prone to bias. And once again, if you analyse exactly what Sureka actually knew, for sure, you'll realise it's not very much at all.
I never insulted you. I'm not even talking to you. "The unreliable narrator " isn't being employed. Horus knew exactly what he was getting into, but tricked... sure he could have been but where is that relative and there is no real basis for thinking that anyways.
I don't want to get too tangled in this, but I will point out that the narrative was third person limited, not third person omniscient. That and the inclusion of an objectively false yet true to character statement (Horus is a god) indicates the entire passage is written from the perspective of Horus, who is unreliable. Like the old logic puzzle, even if Horus is the one telling the truth, he's repeating what the other guy (chaos) said.
Pride was Horus’ greatest weakness and it stands to reason that the Chaos Gods took that pride and convinced him that he “won” the power fair and square because in Horus’ mind he is better than the Emperor.
In reality the Emperor stole the power. Either through a deal he didn’t honour and/or by brute strength/trickery.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It also stands to reason that the Chaos Gods REALLY REALLY didn’t like the Emperor calling him names like anathema etc so they may well have just given the power to Horus because they wanted someone to kill Him. Clearly all the battles Horus fought were just proving grounds to make sure their investment of power was not in the wrong person.
Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.
You also say " If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does.". That's not necessarily true either. The unreliable narrator is a well-known literary device. Regardless, all the passage I quoted above is about how Horus views his experiences so it is inherently unreliable and prone to bias. And once again, if you analyse exactly what Sureka actually knew, for sure, you'll realise it's not very much at all.
I never insulted you. I'm not even talking to you. "The unreliable narrator " isn't being employed. Horus knew exactly what he was getting into, but tricked... sure he could have been but where is that relative and there is no real basis for thinking that anyways.
I don't want to get too tangled in this, but I will point out that the narrative was third person limited, not third person omniscient. That and the inclusion of an objectively false yet true to character statement (Horus is a god) indicates the entire passage is written from the perspective of Horus, who is unreliable. Like the old logic puzzle, even if Horus is the one telling the truth, he's repeating what the other guy (chaos) said.
It is third person omniscient, there is no single main protagonist. I've already established many times that Horus being biased or his testimony is irrelevant.
Thankfully other people are carrying on the conversati8n nicely. That bit between Russ and Harris is interesting, he does have regret but still thinks of the emperor as the greatest evil in the universe, which could well be true given how many genicides and such he has committed. We can’t say he’s a good guy really.
Thankfully other people are carrying on the conversati8n nicely. That bit between Russ and Harris is interesting, he does have regret but still thinks of the emperor as the greatest evil in the universe, which could well be true given how many genicides and such he has committed. We can’t say he’s a good guy really.
How can horus’s bias be irrelevant. He’s version of events, as told by the narrator describing horuss emotions, not his actions, is the only evidence we have of a deal with chaos. Slipspaces summery above is spot in really. You have said dev, many times before that you would admit when you were wrong but you still won’t do here when it’s clear you are.
I’ll break it down again for u.
Horus was lead to believe that the emperor made a deal or bargain with the gods, either by the emperor or by entities in the warp. If it was the emperor he only remembers this as a dream. Nothing reliable there.
The narrator states that Horus took his powers by force and the emperor didn’t. He also states that Horus is a god.
Is Horus a god? No.
Is it remotely likely that he defeated the chaos “gods”, stole there power and continued in without their influence.
From this we can deduce that the narrator is “unreliable”.
So, sources for the deal with chaos. An unreliable narrator, a sergeant of the emperor repeating hearsay and Horus.
This then leaves the question is horuss version of events reliable. The narrators isn’t. Surekas isn’t. And I think we all know Horus might be a bit anti-emperor in his way of thinking. Even if he believes there was a deal, ie the gods told him there was, are they reliable?
Thankfully other people are carrying on the conversati8n nicely. That bit between Russ and Harris is interesting, he does have regret but still thinks of the emperor as the greatest evil in the universe, which could well be true given how many genicides and such he has committed. We can’t say he’s a good guy really.
Andykp wrote: How can horus’s bias be irrelevant. He’s version of events, as told by the narrator describing horuss emotions, not his actions, is the only evidence we have of a deal with chaos. Slipspaces summery above is spot in really. You have said dev, many times before that you would admit when you were wrong but you still won’t do here when it’s clear you are.
I’ll break it down again for u.
Horus was lead to believe that the emperor made a deal or bargain with the gods, either by the emperor or by entities in the warp. If it was the emperor he only remembers this as a dream. Nothing reliable there.
The narrator states that Horus took his powers by force and the emperor didn’t. He also states that Horus is a god.
Is Horus a god? No.
Is it remotely likely that he defeated the chaos “gods”, stole there power and continued in without their influence.
From this we can deduce that the narrator is “unreliable”.
So, sources for the deal with chaos. An unreliable narrator, a sergeant of the emperor repeating hearsay and Horus.
This then leaves the question is horuss version of events reliable. The narrators isn’t. Surekas isn’t. And I think we all know Horus might be a bit anti-emperor in his way of thinking. Even if he believes there was a deal, ie the gods told him there was, are they reliable?
Thankfully other people are carrying on the conversati8n nicely. That bit between Russ and Harris is interesting, he does have regret but still thinks of the emperor as the greatest evil in the universe, which could well be true given how many genicides and such he has committed. We can’t say he’s a good guy really.
Just successfully refuted your points lol.
I’ve never said the emperor wasn’t evil.
Because Sureka testifies this all happened as well as Horus, Sureka is not going to have the same biases that Horus has therefore its irrelevant, I can't believe I have to tell you this for the 3rd time.
Horus 'never' stole the powers, he was given them. Why do you constantly say that? He didn't have to defeat them, just because the Emperor did doesn't mean that Horus needed to defeat them, so the writer is not unreliable. Both the testimonies are completely reliable as the both corroborate what the other says and both are on the other sides of the strife. Sureka is completely reliable, just because you 'think' she isn't doesn't make that true. Horus' knowledge of Molech and the Emperors deal all came from the Emperor, so you have the Red Angel, Erebus, Horus, ingethel the ascended and Sureka all telling the same story. 3 biased in terms of Chaos, 1 (could be argued 2) biased in terms of the Emps, there were also 6 other perpetuals there. If you argue that it didn't happen then you'd argue nothing happened in 30k. The Emperor went into the house of eyes and got power that is indisputable, the least you can say is that we don't know what powers he got but that still isn't that strong as Sureka knew Horus got the same powers.
Andykp wrote: How can horus’s bias be irrelevant. He’s version of events, as told by the narrator describing horuss emotions, not his actions, is the only evidence we have of a deal with chaos. Slipspaces summery above is spot in really. You have said dev, many times before that you would admit when you were wrong but you still won’t do here when it’s clear you are.
I’ll break it down again for u.
Horus was lead to believe that the emperor made a deal or bargain with the gods, either by the emperor or by entities in the warp. If it was the emperor he only remembers this as a dream. Nothing reliable there.
The narrator states that Horus took his powers by force and the emperor didn’t. He also states that Horus is a god.
Is Horus a god? No.
Is it remotely likely that he defeated the chaos “gods”, stole there power and continued in without their influence.
From this we can deduce that the narrator is “unreliable”.
So, sources for the deal with chaos. An unreliable narrator, a sergeant of the emperor repeating hearsay and Horus.
This then leaves the question is horuss version of events reliable. The narrators isn’t. Surekas isn’t. And I think we all know Horus might be a bit anti-emperor in his way of thinking. Even if he believes there was a deal, ie the gods told him there was, are they reliable?
Thankfully other people are carrying on the conversati8n nicely. That bit between Russ and Harris is interesting, he does have regret but still thinks of the emperor as the greatest evil in the universe, which could well be true given how many genicides and such he has committed. We can’t say he’s a good guy really.
Just successfully refuted your points lol.
I’ve never said the emperor wasn’t evil.
Because Sureka testifies this all happened as well as Horus, Sureka is not going to have the same biases that Horus has therefore its irrelevant, I can't believe I have to tell you this for the 3rd time.
Horus 'never' stole the powers, he was given them. Why do you constantly say that? He didn't have to defeat them, just because the Emperor did doesn't mean that Horus needed to defeat them, so the writer is not unreliable. Both the testimonies are completely reliable as the both corroborate what the other says and both are on the other sides of the strife. Sureka is completely reliable, just because you 'think' she isn't doesn't make that true. Horus' knowledge of Molech and the Emperors deal all came from the Emperor, so you have the Red Angel, Erebus, Horus, ingethel the ascended and Sureka all telling the same story. 3 biased in terms of Chaos, 1 (could be argued 2) biased in terms of the Emps, there were also 6 other perpetuals there. If you argue that it didn't happen then you'd argue nothing happened in 30k.
Saying something three times doesn’t make it right. Horuss bias is clearly relevant. Surekas account is hearsay. Not fact. Tell me as many times as you want. You are still wrong.
The narrator is being used by the author to lead you in a specific direction, hence its unreliability. He is clearly misleading you into seeing horuss emotions by saying that Horus was a god and all that garbage. I’m not saying it didn’t happen or did happen. I’m saying we don’t know what happened. Horus didn’t know, neither did sureka. Neither testimony is reliable, even if they are identical. I say he stole the powers in that the quote you posted stated that he had taken the powers his father by force of arms. No promise or bargain to be made. To me, if you take something by force that’s the same as stealing. Replace stole with took if it helps u.
U need to remember you are reading a work of fiction. A story. The narrator and characters are going to say things to move the drama in certain directions. If you wish to treat it as factual history then do so, but then no accounts given are reliable as there were no witnesses to what the emperor and the chaos gods got up to. Only hearsay.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’ll say it again a never said the emperor wasn’t evil so don’t believe I’ve rubuked anything.
Andykp wrote: How can horus’s bias be irrelevant. He’s version of events, as told by the narrator describing horuss emotions, not his actions, is the only evidence we have of a deal with chaos. Slipspaces summery above is spot in really. You have said dev, many times before that you would admit when you were wrong but you still won’t do here when it’s clear you are.
I’ll break it down again for u.
Horus was lead to believe that the emperor made a deal or bargain with the gods, either by the emperor or by entities in the warp. If it was the emperor he only remembers this as a dream. Nothing reliable there.
The narrator states that Horus took his powers by force and the emperor didn’t. He also states that Horus is a god.
Is Horus a god? No.
Is it remotely likely that he defeated the chaos “gods”, stole there power and continued in without their influence.
From this we can deduce that the narrator is “unreliable”.
So, sources for the deal with chaos. An unreliable narrator, a sergeant of the emperor repeating hearsay and Horus.
This then leaves the question is horuss version of events reliable. The narrators isn’t. Surekas isn’t. And I think we all know Horus might be a bit anti-emperor in his way of thinking. Even if he believes there was a deal, ie the gods told him there was, are they reliable?
Thankfully other people are carrying on the conversati8n nicely. That bit between Russ and Harris is interesting, he does have regret but still thinks of the emperor as the greatest evil in the universe, which could well be true given how many genicides and such he has committed. We can’t say he’s a good guy really.
Just successfully refuted your points lol.
I’ve never said the emperor wasn’t evil.
Because Sureka testifies this all happened as well as Horus, Sureka is not going to have the same biases that Horus has therefore its irrelevant, I can't believe I have to tell you this for the 3rd time.
Horus 'never' stole the powers, he was given them. Why do you constantly say that? He didn't have to defeat them, just because the Emperor did doesn't mean that Horus needed to defeat them, so the writer is not unreliable. Both the testimonies are completely reliable as the both corroborate what the other says and both are on the other sides of the strife. Sureka is completely reliable, just because you 'think' she isn't doesn't make that true. Horus' knowledge of Molech and the Emperors deal all came from the Emperor, so you have the Red Angel, Erebus, Horus, ingethel the ascended and Sureka all telling the same story. 3 biased in terms of Chaos, 1 (could be argued 2) biased in terms of the Emps, there were also 6 other perpetuals there. If you argue that it didn't happen then you'd argue nothing happened in 30k.
Saying something three times doesn’t make it right. Horuss bias is clearly relevant. Surekas account is hearsay. Not fact. Tell me as many times as you want. You are still wrong.
The narrator is being used by the author to lead you in a specific direction, hence its unreliability. He is clearly misleading you into seeing horuss emotions by saying that Horus was a god and all that garbage. I’m not saying it didn’t happen or did happen. I’m saying we don’t know what happened. Horus didn’t know, neither did sureka. Neither testimony is reliable, even if they are identical. I say he stole the powers in that the quote you posted stated that he had taken the powers his father by force of arms. No promise or bargain to be made. To me, if you take something by force that’s the same as stealing. Replace stole with took if it helps u.
U need to remember you are reading a work of fiction. A story. The narrator and characters are going to say things to move the drama in certain directions. If you wish to treat it as factual history then do so, but then no accounts given are reliable as there were no witnesses to what the emperor and the chaos gods got up to. Only hearsay.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’ll say it again a never said the emperor wasn’t evil so don’t believe I’ve rubuked anything.
Horus bias isn't relevant, its only relevant if he is the only testimony. Sureka's account is not hearsay, its corroborated by herself and the narrator. "The narrator is being used by the author to lead you in a specific direction, hence its unreliability. He is clearly misleading you into seeing horus emotions by saying that Horus was a god and all that garbage" Complete and utter conjecture, plus how do you know when you haven't read the book. The writer didn't say he was an actual god, he was saying he was a god as much as the Emperor was a god, someone with godlike powers. It is a motif, Horus said before he was going to walk in his fathers footsteps, then building on that when he left the writer says he is a god and then Horus says I'm coming for you father. Read the novel. Narration in a third person omniscient novel speaks facts, the characters do the directing of drama in the story, that's literature 101, for example you will never find a writer narrating that the Emperor is a god etc. you only think that the narration does what you say it does because the HH is a massive series of books. What you assert just doesn't happen, the writer will always (especially in the case of HH style) let you know what is fact and fiction.
Earth127 wrote: Didn't she sacrifice, without coming back, herself permanently in a short published afterwards?
No, she came right back after getting kababed with the Talons of Horus, hang on and I'll find the quote.
There is no context to this but it happens after Horus leaves the House of eyes:
She flipped through the yellowed pages, looking for a picture to conjure the right words into her head.
A page with a young girl sitting at the edge of the ocean caught her eye and she nodded to herself. The
girl was very beautiful, but her legs were fused together and ended in the wide tail of a fish. She liked this
story; the tale of a young girl who, for the sake of true love, gives up her existence in one realm to earn a
place in another.
Someone moved along the corridor. Vivyen waited for them to pass, but they stopped in front of her,
blocking the light.
‘I can’t see the words,’ she said.
‘That’s a good story,’ said the person in front of her. ‘Can I read it to you?’
Vivyen looked up in surprise and nodded happily.
‘Didn’t I tell you it was going to be okay?’ said Alivia Sureka
But the writer even says at the end:
"There’s a lot going on in this book, with plenty of new characters I’d love to come back to. I want to
see where Alivia Sureka goes and if things are indeed okay. I want to see the depths of madness into
which Albard Devine plummets. What’s going to happen to the Mournival now that it has Tormaggedon as
one of its members? Just what did the Warmaster see on the other side of that barrier and what power has
he now returned with? Is he now the equal of the Emperor?
Only time will tell. And while I bet you think you know the answers, we’ve still got some killer
surprises in store for you"
That would suggest they will get round to telling us what happened beyond the portal and whether Horus became the equal of the Emperor in power but I really really doubt they would provide those answers. It’s simply not their style.
Mellow wrote: That would suggest they will get round to telling us what happened beyond the portal and whether Horus became the equal of the Emperor in power but I really really doubt they would provide those answers. It’s simply not their style.
I'm not suggesting that, the quote is to show that Sureka lived.
BrianDavion wrote: Perhaps Del you should take the "I bet you think you've got all the answers but we've some suprises in store for you" into mind eh?
Well yeah but you could apply that to everything in the book, I doubt every single thing in it is going to be surprisingly wrong or end up being misleading etc. Plus consider when this book was written, 6 years ago. Like I say until the lore is re-written its the best source we have.
BrianDavion wrote: Perhaps Del you should take the "I bet you think you've got all the answers but we've some suprises in store for you" into mind eh?
Well yeah but you could apply that to everything in the book, I doubt every single thing in it is going to be surprisingly wrong or end up being misleading etc. Plus consider when this book was written, 6 years ago. Like I say until the lore is re-written its the best source we have.
sure, but we need to factor in that we don't nesscarily know everything, taking statements as literal truth all the time in the HH novels leads to people concluding that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost legions.
BrianDavion wrote: Perhaps Del you should take the "I bet you think you've got all the answers but we've some suprises in store for you" into mind eh?
Well yeah but you could apply that to everything in the book, I doubt every single thing in it is going to be surprisingly wrong or end up being misleading etc. Plus consider when this book was written, 6 years ago. Like I say until the lore is re-written its the best source we have.
sure, but we need to factor in that we don't nesscarily know everything, taking statements as literal truth all the time in the HH novels leads to people concluding that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost legions.
It is truth until there is new evidence. That's the equivalent, when people say that there are not facts in science based on 'gravity isn't a fact because in the future we may find out its not actually real.' It also means there is no burden of proof of anything in 40k/30k as you could just say 'yeah but in the future that might be contradicted.' I don't take that kind of argument seriously. This isn't some implicit lore, its explicit, if it is to be interpreted or not to be taken as fact then it would be like the Ultramarines absorbing the other legions, which in first heretic when they say that its stated as speculation. The novel does not state that anything we are talking about is speculation, its stated it happened. If it was to be speculation it would be written as such.
....... "truth like gravity" alright that statement there implies your absolute and utter ignorance of scientific method.
Gravity is a measureable, observable effect. I pick up an apple and let it go, it falls to the ground, we call that gravity. that is an observable effect. you are welcome to challange me on that and try doing otherwise, but it's pretty solid.
THAT is truth, (course as we all know, it's more complicated as there are ways around gravity) now.. what causes gravity? THAT is something that we can only theorize about and the theory of gravity has changed over time, Newton's theories on gravity, for example where in fact superseeded by Einstein, and one day someone else may develop an even better theory. THAT is truth, there is observable data and the theory you can cfrat from it. You are presenting observable data and claiming your theories as to it are fact.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... "truth like gravity" alright that statement there implies your absolute and utter ignorance of scientific method.
Gravity is a measureable, observable effect. I pick up an apple and let it go, it falls to the ground, we call that gravity. that is an observable effect. you are welcome to challange me on that and try doing otherwise, but it's pretty solid.
THAT is truth, (course as we all know, it's more complicated as there are ways around gravity) now.. what causes gravity? THAT is something that we can only theorize about and the theory of gravity has changed over time, Newton's theories on gravity, for example where in fact superseeded by Einstein, and one day someone else may develop an even better theory. THAT is truth, there is observable data and the theory you can cfrat from it. You are presenting observable data and claiming your theories as to it are fact.
You just missed the point. I never said gravity doesn't exist.. There is no theorising of what causes gravity. Gravity is simply warped space-time. You haven't understood my point at all, you are arguing on a basis of, you can't take it as fact as it could change in the future, that is like saying you can't take gravity as fact because it might be replaced by some other theory. Yes, it is fact, the writer wrote it as such as do all other writers on 30k/40k books.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... "truth like gravity" alright that statement there implies your absolute and utter ignorance of scientific method.
Gravity is a measureable, observable effect. I pick up an apple and let it go, it falls to the ground, we call that gravity. that is an observable effect. you are welcome to challange me on that and try doing otherwise, but it's pretty solid.
THAT is truth, (course as we all know, it's more complicated as there are ways around gravity) now.. what causes gravity? THAT is something that we can only theorize about and the theory of gravity has changed over time, Newton's theories on gravity, for example where in fact superseeded by Einstein, and one day someone else may develop an even better theory. THAT is truth, there is observable data and the theory you can cfrat from it. You are presenting observable data and claiming your theories as to it are fact.
You just missed the point. I never said gravity doesn't exist.
no b ut you said Gravity was "fact" when it's actually a lot more complex.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... "truth like gravity" alright that statement there implies your absolute and utter ignorance of scientific method.
Gravity is a measureable, observable effect. I pick up an apple and let it go, it falls to the ground, we call that gravity. that is an observable effect. you are welcome to challange me on that and try doing otherwise, but it's pretty solid.
THAT is truth, (course as we all know, it's more complicated as there are ways around gravity) now.. what causes gravity? THAT is something that we can only theorize about and the theory of gravity has changed over time, Newton's theories on gravity, for example where in fact superseeded by Einstein, and one day someone else may develop an even better theory. THAT is truth, there is observable data and the theory you can cfrat from it. You are presenting observable data and claiming your theories as to it are fact.
You just missed the point. I never said gravity doesn't exist.
no b ut you said Gravity was "fact" when it's actually a lot more complex.
Gravity is a fact, we know everything there is to know about it, apart from that we haven't figured out quantum gravity.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... "truth like gravity" alright that statement there implies your absolute and utter ignorance of scientific method.
Gravity is a measureable, observable effect. I pick up an apple and let it go, it falls to the ground, we call that gravity. that is an observable effect. you are welcome to challange me on that and try doing otherwise, but it's pretty solid.
THAT is truth, (course as we all know, it's more complicated as there are ways around gravity) now.. what causes gravity? THAT is something that we can only theorize about and the theory of gravity has changed over time, Newton's theories on gravity, for example where in fact superseeded by Einstein, and one day someone else may develop an even better theory. THAT is truth, there is observable data and the theory you can cfrat from it. You are presenting observable data and claiming your theories as to it are fact.
You just missed the point. I never said gravity doesn't exist.
no b ut you said Gravity was "fact" when it's actually a lot more complex.
Gravity is a fact, we know everything there is to know about it, apart from that we haven't figured out quantum gravity.
We still don’t know exactly
What it is.
Why it only pulls
Why it is so weak
Why it is so finely tuned
Does life need gravity
Can we counter it permanently
And of course, can we ever have a theory of quantum gravity
There’s more, but it’s clear we don’t “know everything there is to know about it” but shock horror, Delvarus makes a supposition not backed by facts
Comparing scientisifc knowledge to information gleaned from a fictional book is really weird.
I will state 1 fact about 40k. There is no canon. It all changes all the time. Different people are in charge of GW and different people write the books, codex and fiction but in the end it can all change. So even “knowing things” is transient.
That is an observation based on 30years following the the story of this universe.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... "truth like gravity" alright that statement there implies your absolute and utter ignorance of scientific method.
Gravity is a measureable, observable effect. I pick up an apple and let it go, it falls to the ground, we call that gravity. that is an observable effect. you are welcome to challange me on that and try doing otherwise, but it's pretty solid.
THAT is truth, (course as we all know, it's more complicated as there are ways around gravity) now.. what causes gravity? THAT is something that we can only theorize about and the theory of gravity has changed over time, Newton's theories on gravity, for example where in fact superseeded by Einstein, and one day someone else may develop an even better theory. THAT is truth, there is observable data and the theory you can cfrat from it. You are presenting observable data and claiming your theories as to it are fact.
You just missed the point. I never said gravity doesn't exist.
no b ut you said Gravity was "fact" when it's actually a lot more complex.
Gravity is a fact, we know everything there is to know about it, apart from that we haven't figured out quantum gravity.
We still don’t know exactly
What it is.
Why it only pulls
Why it is so weak
Why it is so finely tuned
Does life need gravity
Can we counter it permanently
And of course, can we ever have a theory of quantum gravity
There’s more, but it’s clear we don’t “know everything there is to know about it” but shock horror, Delvarus makes a supposition not backed by facts
Usual defence tactics coming in 3, 2, 1.....
We know why it only pulls, its because objects travel through warped space-time.
Why its so weak has to do with quantum gravity as I stated we don't know that.
Why its finely tuned is just another way of asking why its so weak and its just the anthropic principle.
We know everything about gravity in the macro world, its just gravity in the quantum world we don't understand and what you listed is just exactly that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: I love how we are discussing gravity now.
Comparing scientisifc knowledge to information gleaned from a fictional book is really weird.
I will state 1 fact about 40k. There is no canon. It all changes all the time. Different people are in charge of GW and different people write the books, codex and fiction but in the end it can all change. So even “knowing things” is transient.
That is an observation based on 30years following the the story of this universe.
I was comparing his argument technique to people that say there are no scientific facts, its not really weird, but I'm glad I love debating about physics its fun.
We know why it only pulls, its because objects travel through warped space-time.
thats the current leading theory but that doesn't mean it's truth. in fact the weaknesses you yourself admitted exist are evidance eneugh that the theory may in fact be one day proven wrong as our understanding advances.
end of the day no good scientist will say "this theory is truth absolute" he'll say "this is what we belive currently"
We know why it only pulls, its because objects travel through warped space-time.
thats the current leading theory but that doesn't mean it's truth. in fact the weaknesses you yourself admitted exist are evidance eneugh that the theory may in fact be one day proven wrong as our understanding advances.
end of the day no good scientist will say "this theory is truth absolute" he'll say "this is what we belive currently"
Not likely, you can calculate every orbit or mass of a body to perfect precision. That we can make predictions for it means its true to some degree. There could be a theory that trumps it, but that it works in giving prediction means that its very unlikely, they will probably just add to it. Yes scientists don't believe in absolute truths, but that is just a matter time, what we have a truths at the present so they are truths until they are proven otherwise, saying something isn't true because it could change in the future is a terrible argument, because it doesn't really mean anything.
I know very little about gravity. I’m (was) a biologist not a Physicist. But do know if we are looking at the accounts in this book we should be using literary and historical techniques to judge them. I dont think any of them stand up to that scrutiny and I think that was deliberate by the other. Backed up by the fact he says he has actualaly done that. Which make this whole conversation a hypothetical one, which is fine but it means dev you have to have a bit of wriggle room. U are the one here using black and white. The rest of us are talking in shades of grey. How about it?
Andykp wrote: I know very little about gravity. I’m (was) a biologist not a Physicist. But do know if we are looking at the accounts in this book we should be using literary and historical techniques to judge them. I dont think any of them stand up to that scrutiny and I think that was deliberate by the other. Backed up by the fact he says he has actualaly done that. Which make this whole conversation a hypothetical one, which is fine but it means dev you have to have a bit of wriggle room. U are the one here using black and white. The rest of us are talking in shades of grey. How about it?
You can talk about shades of grey, no problem with that but to say a fact isn't a fact because it could change in the future doesn't really mean anything. Plus you's basically agree with me that the Emperor went to the house of eyes, all we argue about is what he got there, Sureka knows, that's enough for me.
BrianDavion wrote: Sureka THINKS she knows. Thats all we caution you about taking proables as "absolute truths"
If she knew Horus got powers without being there, then why would she come to that conclusion, if she didn't already know... Same with Horus, the Emperor told him of Molech and getting powers there. Plus you thinking that 'she thinks' means that you think; you know, that she doesn't know.
Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.
She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.
Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.
Mellow wrote: Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.
She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.
Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.
She wasn't there when he came out, she was dead. She didn't feel anything.
"Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each
movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her.
She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most.
She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side.
A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t
about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight.
Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was
magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her
and every person she’d abandoned.
And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were
soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face
and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest.
Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he
couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near
to those whose power he’d stolen.
Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she
could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and
she couldn’t bloody concentrate."
I mean there is so much evidence in the book that she knew.
This thread as well as the other similar thread going on right now have proven to be quite difficult to follow for various reasons but the topic is interesting enough for me to weigh in a little. I've not read the books being mentioned but from the quotes that have been posted I really see very little that allows us to view things completely clearly on the Emperor, his thoughts and intentions, his powers and his Faustian bargain. Many of the quotes shown, in my mind, haven't been saying exactly what the people quoting them have surmised and seem to be purposefully vague in their descriptions or are representative of a particular character's feelings and not the objective truth, despite being put forward by the narrator. Perhaps I'm bias because I like the fiction of this setting to be vague and not perfectly defined.
One very interesting quote I've read in this topic or the other was saying that the Emperor reneged on his side of the bargain and as a result knowledge of Chaos was hidden from humanity. Perhaps that was the only price he should have paid - being given the power and means to lead humanity through genecraft and sorcery but at the cost of 'enlightening' mankind to the true nature of Chaos. If the gods were to agree to such a bargain they surely thought it would benefit them hugely, maybe that it would effectively damn all of mankind and strengthen the gods. The Emperor obviously had other ideas and betrayed the gods after the fact. I can only imagine that he will have some terrible price to pay for it eventually unless Chaos can be stopped completely, the warp and realspace are separated permanently or humanity takes over the webway. His soul/warp presence might be forfeit when he dies, which at this point with the power that must have manifested in the warp due to uncounted humans believing in the divinity of the Emperor would be a considerable boon to Chaos. The scattering of the Primarchs could have been part of the deal or it could have been a punishment enacted on the Emperor for his deceit.
This is all speculation, all I know is that I don't ever want to know the truth about any of it
xlDuke wrote: This thread as well as the other similar thread going on right now have proven to be quite difficult to follow for various reasons but the topic is interesting enough for me to weigh in a little. I've not read the books being mentioned but from the quotes that have been posted I really see very little that allows us to view things completely clearly on the Emperor, his thoughts and intentions, his powers and his Faustian bargain. Many of the quotes shown, in my mind, haven't been saying exactly what the people quoting them have surmised and seem to be purposefully vague in their descriptions or are representative of a particular character's feelings and not the objective truth, despite being put forward by the narrator. Perhaps I'm bias because I like the fiction of this setting to be vague and not perfectly defined.
One very interesting quote I've read in this topic or the other was saying that the Emperor reneged on his side of the bargain and as a result knowledge of Chaos was hidden from humanity. Perhaps that was the only price he should have paid - being given the power and means to lead humanity through genecraft and sorcery but at the cost of 'enlightening' mankind to the true nature of Chaos. If the gods were to agree to such a bargain they surely thought it would benefit them hugely, maybe that it would effectively damn all of mankind and strengthen the gods. The Emperor obviously had other ideas and betrayed the gods after the fact. I can only imagine that he will have some terrible price to pay for it eventually unless Chaos can be stopped completely, the warp and realspace are separated permanently or humanity takes over the webway. His soul/warp presence might be forfeit when he dies, which at this point with the power that must have manifested in the warp due to uncounted humans believing in the divinity of the Emperor would be a considerable boon to Chaos. The scattering of the Primarchs could have been part of the deal or it could have been a punishment enacted on the Emperor for his deceit.
This is all speculation, all I know is that I don't ever want to know the truth about any of it
The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.
Duke summed it up very well. And I can assure dev that I in no way hero worship the emperor and want him to be great. I like that there a question marks about him and that he is as flawed as everyone else in the setting. It’s what makes 40k so much fun. There are no good guys.
Dev, you can interpret things in the clear cut fact or non fact way you do, and the rest of us will interpret the texts and story as a whole in our own way. Neither is right nor wrong. I personally have heard or read nothing that changes my opinion on what has happened or who’s accounts to believe.
The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.
Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me willing to question things put forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.
As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.
The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.
Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.
As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.
"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."
yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.
"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"
exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.
Mellow wrote: Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.
She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.
Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.
She wasn't there when he came out, she was dead. She didn't feel anything.
"Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each
movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her.
She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most.
She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side.
A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t
about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight.
Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was
magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her
and every person she’d abandoned.
And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were
soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face
and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest.
Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he
couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near
to those whose power he’d stolen.
Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she
could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and
she couldn’t bloody concentrate."
I mean there is so much evidence in the book that she knew.
I put a capital on Him. Meaning she was with Him when He came out. I wasn’t referring to Horus.
Mellow wrote: Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.
She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.
Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.
She wasn't there when he came out, she was dead. She didn't feel anything.
"Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each
movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her.
She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most.
She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side.
A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t
about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight.
Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was
magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her
and every person she’d abandoned.
And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were
soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face
and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest.
Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he
couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near
to those whose power he’d stolen.
Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she
could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and
she couldn’t bloody concentrate."
I mean there is so much evidence in the book that she knew.
I put a capital on Him. Meaning she was with Him when He came out. I wasn’t referring to Horus.
The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.
Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.
As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.
"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."
yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.
"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"
exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.
No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)
The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.
Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.
As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.
"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."
yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.
"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"
exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.
No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)
He did get power from the Gods. But I never said he bargained. There are two sources, one saying he made a bargain the other saying he took the powers by force. By the way the house of eyes isn't just the warp, its a direct route to the chaos gods.
The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.
Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.
As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.
"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."
yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.
"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"
exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.
No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)
He did get power from the Gods. But I never said he bargained. There are two sources, one saying he made a bargain the other saying he took the powers by force. By the way the house of eyes isn't just the warp, its a direct route to the chaos gods.
BrianDavion wrote: No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)
Exactly!
We know the Emperor got a big power-up on Molech. Chaos claim he made some sort of deal and welched on it but they are not exactly the most trustworthy source.
I want to know what the Emperor thought he was doing and how he played it. "Master of Mankind" was a big missed opportunity IMHO in that it could have given us some baldy needed insight into the Emperor's plan and thoughts but instead they chickened out. ADB stated that he didn't want to write a book filled with the Emperor's justifications but I think he went too far in the opposite direction by not providing any.
There are far too many sections in the HH that make the Emperor come across as a massive idiot. A few carefully constructed paragraphs giving some insight into his thoughts and memories could have provided a much needed balance to the fluff. Currently it is not surprising so many Primarchs turned to Chaos given the way the Emperor behaved. I am actually more surprised at how many of them stayed loyal in spite of his behaviour.
I bet at the end of the last book, the emperor wakes up and Horus is in the shower and it was all a dream! (Only those of an age will get the reference I think).
I want to know what the Emperor thought he was doing and how he played it. "Master of Mankind" was a big missed opportunity IMHO in that it could have given us some baldy needed insight into the Emperor's plan and thoughts but instead they chickened out. ADB stated that he didn't want to write a book filled with the Emperor's justifications but I think he went too far in the opposite direction by not providing any.
There are far too many sections in the HH that make the Emperor come across as a massive idiot. A few carefully constructed paragraphs giving some insight into his thoughts and memories could have provided a much needed balance to the fluff. Currently it is not surprising so many Primarchs turned to Chaos given the way the Emperor behaved. I am actually more surprised at how many of them stayed loyal in spite of his behaviour.
I think MoM already has so many reveals and justifications it would be easy to use that book to 'solve' the whole Heresy, which would be disappointing.
The big thing I got from MoM was the sense of urgency, of the Emperor having a plan that Chaos had found a way to screw up, and that he was now trying to push through in a way more limited time frame. That and the realisation that he doesn't consider the Primarchs his 'sons' (and, it seems, has had to do a ton of legwork with the earlier discoveries to get them on-side) explains a lot of his actions.
I posted this way back in the thread, but I think the Emperor's actual, ideal plan was:
- cM25, realises that humanity is going all Psychic, that this means it will likely get eaten by Chaos, and that he might have to actually reveal himself and DO something to fix this. (see: The Sigillite) - Goes to Molech and does a 'deal' with Chaos, or steals power, or something, I dunno what - but it either pisses off the Chaos gods right then or pisses them off later. - WARP STORMS - Just as the Warp Storms start to dissipate, he puts the PLAN into action, which is:
1. Conquer Terra with Thunder Legions (adapted specifically for that war) 2. Make Primarchs with his fancy stolen power, use Primarchs to create Legions 3. As soon as the Warp Storms recede, send out your serious, totally loyal Primarchs leading their Legions to conquer the galaxy double quick. Imagine the Primarchs to be WAY more like the Custodes, having been raised in the Palace like them - different, but under no illusions that they are weapons built by the Emperor (not 'sons', as per MoM). This new Imperium is kinda totalitarian, but only in a few ways - mainly that nobody should worship anything and that psykers should be sent to Terra. This is an attempt to starve Chaos and deny them the human race, which might well be a betrayal of the Molech thing. So, it needs to be done SUPER FAST in the confusion after the Fall of the Eldar - before Chaos realise what's going on. 4. In the meantime, the Emperor builds the connection to the webway, removing humanity from the reliance on warp travel. 5. At the end of all this, humanity is the only species still surviving in the galaxy, and doesn't worship Chaos or use the warp, so the power of Chaos is much reduced. Humanity can slowly continue to evolve into a psychic race in relative stability. There's still the possibility that the surviving Primarchs and Legions have an 'engineered' civil war (see: First Lord of the Imperium) to get rid of them but maybe that's already been taken care of because Webway Wars!, or maybe they do other stuff. Who knows?
The biggest fuckup in all this is Chaos scattering the Primarchs, which means everything is WAY behind schedule, but also they they all have massively different moral views and think of him as some sort of 'father figure'. The problem isn't that the Emperor is a dick to Lorgar. It's that Lorgar got raised with a set of beliefs totally at odds with what the Imperium needs, and the Emperor (at that point) doesn't have time to spend years carefully re-integrating him when he needs his Legions out there conquering - If he slows down the plan falls apart.
The tragedy is that Chaos only did the very first step (scattering the Primarchs) - the real reason the plan collapses is because the Primarchs end up becoming too human as a result of that, and it's their humanity that screws up the Emperor's (very ordered) plan to save the species!
Anyway, that's what I reckon. The big outstanding question is still 'What did the Emperor do at Molech?'. And, if he got the power to create the Primarchs at Molech during the Dark Age of Technology, why did he bother with Thunder Warriors at all? Why wait 5000 years to create the Primarchs and the Legions??
Thank u. A very insightful and interesting summery. I think you’re spot on. I hadn’t considered what the promarchs would’ve been like had they been raised with the emperor. Good point that. They wouldn’t have the blatant daddy issues that they all do either.
Also the point about waiting to make the primarchs. Very true.
He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?
Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.
BrianDavion wrote: No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)
Exactly!
We know the Emperor got a big power-up on Molech. Chaos claim he made some sort of deal and welched on it but they are not exactly the most trustworthy source.
I want to know what the Emperor thought he was doing and how he played it. "Master of Mankind" was a big missed opportunity IMHO in that it could have given us some baldy needed insight into the Emperor's plan and thoughts but instead they chickened out. ADB stated that he didn't want to write a book filled with the Emperor's justifications but I think he went too far in the opposite direction by not providing any.
There are far too many sections in the HH that make the Emperor come across as a massive idiot. A few carefully constructed paragraphs giving some insight into his thoughts and memories could have provided a much needed balance to the fluff. Currently it is not surprising so many Primarchs turned to Chaos given the way the Emperor behaved. I am actually more surprised at how many of them stayed loyal in spite of his behaviour.
Again Chaos being untrustworthy is completely irrelevant.
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Mellow wrote: He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?
Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.
He did have the Custodes at that point. They all fought alongside the thunderwarriors during the unification wars.
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
Formosa wrote: Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.
Formosa wrote: Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.
I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.
Andykp wrote: Chaos being untrustworthy is never irrelevant. Sureka might have been the changeling for we really know! (Before you go off on on edev, I’m joking).
It's irrelevant because most of the evidence in the book is not from chaos, as for Sureka being a changeling there is no evidence or reasoning to think that.
Formosa wrote: Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.
I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: Chaos being untrustworthy is never irrelevant. Sureka might have been the changeling for we really know! (Before you go off on on edev, I’m joking).
Formosa wrote: Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.
I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.
Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos, as for Sureka being a changeling there is no evidence to suggest that.
Formosa wrote: Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
I guess 'supposed to' could refer to either the Emperor's plans or Chaos' - maybe Chaos intended the Khan to land on Chemos and Slaanesh just fethed everything up...
Mellow wrote:He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?
Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.
Yeah, that certainly makes sense. The Thunder Warriors were pretty flawed. I could see a situation where he tries to do his own super soldiers & comes up with two results - the Thunder Warriors, who can be mass-produced but are crazy and unstable, and the Custodes, which are perfect, but too resource-heavy to produce. Thus, he decides he's gonna have to use the CHAOS KNOWLEDGE/POWER to create the Primarchs to get stable armies.
But that implies that the power he stole way back in the DAoT wasn't specifically for creating Primarchs. If it was specifically for that purpose, I still find it hard to believe he didn't even try and make them for 5000 years. Maybe it was the last resort. Or maybe the power he stole was actually the knowledge of the webway?
Andykp wrote:I hadn’t considered what the primarchs would’ve been like had they been raised with the emperor. Good point that. They wouldn’t have the blatant daddy issues that they all do either.
I really think this is the big takeaway from MoM - what the Custodes are actually like and the Emperor's relationship to them. They're the closest to 'colleagues' he has, the only ones he confides in, and they're raised from such a young age all they know is their Imperial upbringing. Yet they DEFINITELY don't think of the Emperor as their father. I don't think it's a big jump to assume that the Primarchs would have been way more like that if things had gone according to plan.
Formosa wrote: Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.
I guess 'supposed to' could refer to either the Emperor's plans or Chaos' - maybe Chaos intended the Khan to land on Chemos and Slaanesh just fethed everything up...
Mellow wrote:He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?
Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.
Yeah, that certainly makes sense. The Thunder Warriors were pretty flawed. I could see a situation where he tries to do his own super soldiers & comes up with two results - the Thunder Warriors, who can be mass-produced but are crazy and unstable, and the Custodes, which are perfect, but too resource-heavy to produce. Thus, he decides he's gonna have to use the CHAOS KNOWLEDGE/POWER to create the Primarchs to get stable armies.
But that implies that the power he stole way back in the DAoT wasn't specifically for creating Primarchs. If it was specifically for that purpose, I still find it hard to believe he didn't even try and make them for 5000 years. Maybe it was the last resort. Or maybe the power he stole was actually the knowledge of the webway?
Andykp wrote:I hadn’t considered what the primarchs would’ve been like had they been raised with the emperor. Good point that. They wouldn’t have the blatant daddy issues that they all do either.
I really think this is the big takeaway from MoM - what the Custodes are actually like and the Emperor's relationship to them. They're the closest to 'colleagues' he has, the only ones he confides in, and they're raised from such a young age all they know is their Imperial upbringing. Yet they DEFINITELY don't think of the Emperor as their father. I don't think it's a big jump to assume that the Primarchs would have been way more like that if things had gone according to plan.
The Emperor plays the long game, so it wouldn't be surprising if he got the powers well in advanced, he didn't need them until the Unification wars and he didn't need the Astartes until the great crusade. Plus we don't know how long it took him to be able to make the Custodes etc. Plus he makes what he needs, he could have made the Astartes better but didn't need to, so he wouldn't have needed the Thunderwarriors until the unification wars, so I don't know why he would make them before that, unless he was just creating and testing the subjects
There is also another factor at play; he needed the labs on Luna to create the Astartes, so the Primarchs knowledge might not have been the key to the powers on Molech. Then again he has as much genomics tech on earth to create the Custodes and the Thunderwarriors.
We don't know the timeline of the Emperor during the dark age of technology. He mentions to Ra:
"Only 2 of them ever asked why I choose to reveal myself when I did." Wich is a question we don't know the answer too. He had to wait for the fall too launch the great crusade because it calmed the warp/destroyed the Eldar. but by that point he had already conquered earth and built the space marine legions.
Earth127 wrote: We don't know the timeline of the Emperor during the dark age of technology. He mentions to Ra:
"Only 2 of them ever asked why I choose to reveal myself when I did." Wich is a question we don't know the answer too. He had to wait for the fall too launch the great crusade because it calmed the warp/destroyed the Eldar. but by that point he had already conquered earth and built the space marine legions.
We know how long ago the Dark Age was though, it ended at M18. So he did, I think the Luna Wolves helped take Luna. I think the Emperor needing Luna to create the Astartes is old lore.
Mellow wrote: Only two of who? Direct quote please for reference.
Two Primarchs. But it was three
"‘For glory,’ the Emperor replied. ‘To honour the creatures that call themselves my sons. My necessary
tools. They feed on glory as if it were a palpable sustenance. Their own glory, of course, no different
from the kings and emperors of old. It scarcely crosses their mind that glory matters nothing to me. I could
have had a planet’s worth of glory any time I wished it when I walked in the species’ shadow throughout
prehistory. Only three of them ever thought to ask why I timed my emergence as I did.’
Andykp wrote: I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.
I don't think so, they all ended up on human-inhabited worlds which make up only a tiny percentage of the planets in the galaxy. Most are gas giants or frozen chunks of ice. And many of the inhabitable ones would have been teeming with Orks. Something more than blind like was at play but we don't know what.
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Delvarus Centurion wrote: We know how long ago the Dark Age was though, it ended at M18. So he did, I think the Luna Wolves helped take Luna. I think the Emperor needing Luna to create the Astartes is old lore.
I thought the DAOT ended around M25. The age of strife lasted about 5000 years and the Emperor launched the GC around M30.
Andykp wrote: I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.
I don't think so, they all ended up on human-inhabited worlds which make up only a tiny percentage of the planets in the galaxy. Most are gas giants or frozen chunks of ice. And many of the inhabitable ones would have been teeming with Orks. Something more than blind like was at play but we don't know what.
Well we do know Chaos had their sights on more Primarchs. Sanguinius for instance, Khorne thought they could take him, so its nature or nurture or a combination of the two. Was where they ended up the main catalyst or was it their character. The Lion for instance, that was the perfect place for Chaos to influence him, he spent the vast majority of his life living feral with animals and chaos daemons. You could say the knights honour code saved him but , then look at Magnus, he lived in a world of scepticism and rationalism, but he turned.
Karhedron wrote: We know the Emperor got a big power-up on Molech. Chaos claim he made some sort of deal and welched on it but they are not exactly the most trustworthy source.
Again Chaos being untrustworthy is completely irrelevant.
Irrelevant to what? Given that this is a fictional universe, character motivation matters a great deal. Are the Chaos Gods telling the truth here, are they outright lying? Did the Emperor steal some of their power? If so, how? Did he make a bargain and then break it?
My point is that without some more insights into the Emperor's character, he remains a frustrating enigma which makes it harder to sympathise with the loyalist cause.
The honesty of Chaos when it comes to the Emperor's deeds and motivations is not only relevant, it is crucial.
Karhedron wrote: We know the Emperor got a big power-up on Molech. Chaos claim he made some sort of deal and welched on it but they are not exactly the most trustworthy source.
Again Chaos being untrustworthy is completely irrelevant.
Irrelevant to what? Given that this is a fictional universe, character motivation matters a great deal. Are the Chaos Gods telling the truth here, are they outright lying? Did the Emperor steal some of their power? If so, how? Did he make a bargain and then break it?
My point is that without some more insights into the Emperor's character, he remains a frustrating enigma which makes it harder to sympathise with the loyalist cause.
The honesty of Chaos when it comes to the Emperor's deeds and motivations is not only relevant, it is crucial.
Chaos has hardly anything to say on the matter in the novel. Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos. Only in First Heretic is it relevant. As for Sureka she was risking her life and her family to protect the gate from Horus opening it, so to say she was influenced in any way just doesn't make sense.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Chaos has hardly anything to say on the matter in the novel. Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos. Only in First Heretic is it relevant. As for Sureka she was risking her life and her family to protect the gate from Horus opening it, so to say she was influenced in any way just doesn't make sense.
I think you are mixing up two different lines of conversation on this thread, I never mentioned Sureka at all.
My point is that in the absence of anything from the Emperor's POV, the honesty (or not) of Chaos is vitally important. Sureka recounts what she saw and we have no reason to doubt her. But she did not go through the gate. She did not witness what transpired between the Emperor and the Chaos gods. The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to her.
We have only had glimpses of what the Emperor was planning to do and how he planned to achieve it. From the fragments we have been given, many of his actions seem counter-productive to the success of that plan. That is why any hint as to the Emperor's actions or motivations is important. The Emperor is a contradictory figure in the books. I would like some more exploration of how and what he was planning. The meager scraps in MoM are not sufficient for me.
Without some way to understand and empathise with the Emperor's actions, it is very hard to care about the outcome of the Heresy. We don't have to agree with the Emperor's motives or actions but we do at least need to understand them in order engage with the story.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Chaos has hardly anything to say on the matter in the novel. Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos. Only in First Heretic is it relevant. As for Sureka she was risking her life and her family to protect the gate from Horus opening it, so to say she was influenced in any way just doesn't make sense.
I think you are mixing up two different lines of conversation on this thread, I never mentioned Sureka at all.
My point is that in the absence of anything from the Emperor's POV, the honesty (or not) of Chaos is vitally important. Sureka recounts what she saw and we have no reason to doubt her. But she did not go through the gate. She did not witness what transpired between the Emperor and the Chaos gods. The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to her.
We have only had glimpses of what the Emperor was planning to do and how he planned to achieve it. From the fragments we have been given, many of his actions seem counter-productive to the success of that plan. That is why any hint as to the Emperor's actions or motivations is important. The Emperor is a contradictory figure in the books. I would like some more exploration of how and what he was planning. The meager scraps in MoM are not sufficient for me.
Without some way to understand and empathise with the Emperor's actions, it is very hard to care about the outcome of the Heresy. We don't have to agree with the Emperor's motives or actions but we do at least need to understand them in order engage with the story.
"The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to us." We don't know that and what we do know suggests he did otherwise how would she know he got powers from there. Chaos is not vitally important at all in this matter, all the evidence comes from other elements other than Chaos. You can't just say chaos is important as its chaos and everything in the HH has something to do with chaos. The facts in this book are completely have nothing to do with chaos, so how can chaos be relevant. They aren't meagre scraps, you only believe that because it involves the Emperor, the only evidence you would accept is it coming straight from the Emperor, but you do not use the same criteria for facts in any other way in the series. Explained to me how Sureka knows the Emperor went in and came out with powers, explain in what way that isn't a fact.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Chaos has hardly anything to say on the matter in the novel. Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos. Only in First Heretic is it relevant. As for Sureka she was risking her life and her family to protect the gate from Horus opening it, so to say she was influenced in any way just doesn't make sense.
I think you are mixing up two different lines of conversation on this thread, I never mentioned Sureka at all.
My point is that in the absence of anything from the Emperor's POV, the honesty (or not) of Chaos is vitally important. Sureka recounts what she saw and we have no reason to doubt her. But she did not go through the gate. She did not witness what transpired between the Emperor and the Chaos gods. The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to her.
We have only had glimpses of what the Emperor was planning to do and how he planned to achieve it. From the fragments we have been given, many of his actions seem counter-productive to the success of that plan. That is why any hint as to the Emperor's actions or motivations is important. The Emperor is a contradictory figure in the books. I would like some more exploration of how and what he was planning. The meager scraps in MoM are not sufficient for me.
Without some way to understand and empathise with the Emperor's actions, it is very hard to care about the outcome of the Heresy. We don't have to agree with the Emperor's motives or actions but we do at least need to understand them in order engage with the story.
"The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to us." We don't know that and what we do know suggests he did otherwise how would she know he got powers from there. Chaos is not vitally important at all in this matter, all the evidence comes from other elements other than Chaos. You can't just say chaos is important as its chaos and everything in the HH has something to do with chaos. The facts in this book are completely have nothing to do with chaos, so how can chaos be relevant. They aren't meagre scraps, you only believe that because it involves the Emperor, the only evidence you would accept is it coming straight from the Emperor, but you do not use the same criteria for facts in any other way in the series. Explained to me how Sureka knows the Emperor went in and came out with powers, explain in what way that isn't a fact.
You’ve had it explained to you several times, but once again.
Sureka has experience with chaos, that much is known, she knows the emperor went through the door, she knows the emperor came out again, she knows NOTHING of what transpired after he went through the door.
She knows Horus went through the door, she knows he came out again, she knows NOTHING of what transpired while he was in there.
She ASSUMES based on her personal bias (experiences) that Horus got the same power as the Emperor, which in itself is an ASSUMPTION.
We do not know if the Emperor got power, made a deal or anything with certainty, as we are not shown or told, we only have a 3rd party (Sureka) who does not know for certain and another (Horus) who is totally corrupted and blinded by chaos, neither is a reliable source.
So all we can do is theorise what happened, you try to pass your theory as fact with no facts to back it up.
Unless you have a quote that states EXPLICITLY what happened to both the emperor and Horus, it’s just a theory.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Chaos has hardly anything to say on the matter in the novel. Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos. Only in First Heretic is it relevant. As for Sureka she was risking her life and her family to protect the gate from Horus opening it, so to say she was influenced in any way just doesn't make sense.
I think you are mixing up two different lines of conversation on this thread, I never mentioned Sureka at all.
My point is that in the absence of anything from the Emperor's POV, the honesty (or not) of Chaos is vitally important. Sureka recounts what she saw and we have no reason to doubt her. But she did not go through the gate. She did not witness what transpired between the Emperor and the Chaos gods. The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to her.
We have only had glimpses of what the Emperor was planning to do and how he planned to achieve it. From the fragments we have been given, many of his actions seem counter-productive to the success of that plan. That is why any hint as to the Emperor's actions or motivations is important. The Emperor is a contradictory figure in the books. I would like some more exploration of how and what he was planning. The meager scraps in MoM are not sufficient for me.
Without some way to understand and empathise with the Emperor's actions, it is very hard to care about the outcome of the Heresy. We don't have to agree with the Emperor's motives or actions but we do at least need to understand them in order engage with the story.
"The Emperor did not confide his reasons or means to us." We don't know that and what we do know suggests he did otherwise how would she know he got powers from there. Chaos is not vitally important at all in this matter, all the evidence comes from other elements other than Chaos. You can't just say chaos is important as its chaos and everything in the HH has something to do with chaos. The facts in this book are completely have nothing to do with chaos, so how can chaos be relevant. They aren't meagre scraps, you only believe that because it involves the Emperor, the only evidence you would accept is it coming straight from the Emperor, but you do not use the same criteria for facts in any other way in the series. Explained to me how Sureka knows the Emperor went in and came out with powers, explain in what way that isn't a fact.
You’ve had it explained to you several times, but once again.
Sureka has experience with chaos, that much is known, she knows the emperor went through the door, she knows the emperor came out again, she knows NOTHING of what transpired after he went through the door.
She knows Horus went through the door, she knows he came out again, she knows NOTHING of what transpired while he was in there.
She ASSUMES based on her personal bias (experiences) that Horus got the same power as the Emperor, which in itself is an ASSUMPTION.
We do not know if the Emperor got power, made a deal or anything with certainty, as we are not shown or told, we only have a 3rd party (Sureka) who does not know for certain and another (Horus) who is totally corrupted and blinded by chaos, neither is a reliable source.
So all we can do is theorise what happened, you try to pass your theory as fact with no facts to back it up.
Unless you have a quote that states EXPLICITLY what happened to both the emperor and Horus, it’s just a theory.
"She knows Horus went through the door, she knows he came out again, she knows NOTHING of what transpired while he was in there." - exactly how would she know that he got powers,
"She ASSUMES based on her personal bias (experiences) that Horus got the same power as the Emperor, which in itself is an ASSUMPTION" her bias lol no she knows what the Emperor got there, either the Emperor told her or she knows by her emphatic abilities, why would her being biased make her say she knows what the Emperor got in the gateway, there is no bias because she knew that before she even knew who Horus was.
"She ASSUMES based on her personal bias (experiences) that Horus got the same power as the Emperor, which in itself is an ASSUMPTION. " - No she knows, she explicitly says she know, as she states but because the Emperor isn't saying that himself, you are saying she is assuming that.
"We do not know if the Emperor got power, made a deal or anything with certainty, as we are not shown or told, we only have a 3rd party (Sureka) who does not know for certain and another (Horus) who is totally corrupted and blinded by chaos, neither is a reliable source. " no we know he got power because Sureka knows, exactly what power is the only thing we don't know, though if she knows what Horus got, then she assumes that he got what the Emperor got, as she knows what the Emperor got. Sureka is a reliable source, you just don't want her to be a reliable source. She is an agent of the Emperor, she knew of Molech and the powers the Emperor got for at least over 20 millennium before Horus even existed, Horus was told by the Emperor (chaos didn't tell him) what transpired on Molech backing up her story and Chaos said what the Emperor got also backing up both of their stories. So all three accounts are lying and making up an account and they all accidentally came up with the same very specific account. And then you'll say Sureka is chaos tainted, yeah then why did she risk her life and her families life to stop Horus, wouldn't she in-fact help him if she was chaos influenced.
Also the gateway is a direct link to the pantheon, There is so much evidence, the only evidence we don't have is the Emperor himself telling what transpired in the House of eyes. So the 'we don't know what happened in there' is ridiculous, unless you are saying we don't know exactly what powers he got. Abaddon said that Erebus created the lodge on the Luna Wolves fleet, even though he shouldn't of told Loken that, Do you accept that bit of evidence are are you also going to say, Abaddon is biased, Erebus himself never said it, so I don't believe that. I mean this we can't know because we didn't see what transpired is so ridiculous, the writer doesn't make any attempt to show that she isn't trust-worthy but you all imply she is, he writes her story as fact just as the other characters but you think that her story isn't factual, I mean you are arguing based on not wanting to be proven wrong, there is so much evidence and all you can say is, bias, the Emperor never said etc.
I have a quote where she explicitly says she knows what the Emperor got from the gateway.
How would Sureka ever know that the Emperor got power there. Horus also got power there, so how would she say she knew (though in what you say she doesn't or is biased) and be so right in saying that the Emperor got power there, and Horus also getting power there. She knows the reason for the gate, again was the Emperor just playing jenga with the gods.
Formosa wrote: All bluster and no substance, post the quote that EXPLICITLY states
A: what happened while the emperor was in there
B: the emperor told her EXACTLY what happened
C: EXACTLY what power Horus got
D: EXACTLY the “deal” or “power” the emperor got.
Otherwise your just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us, and you should stop passing it off as fact.
I don't need to. That's what you need for it to be true. We don't know what happened when the Emperor was in there, we know he got powers. You have had an ever receding expectation of evidence. First you asked 'show me Sureka saying exactly that she knew' etc. and now we have narrowed it down and you are still giving the ridiculous, show me exactly what transpired in the gate.
This is what you said early on "Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us"
You have taken up a position without knowing any of the lore and after I keep showing you evidence you keep narrowing down the possibility of it being a fact, to the point now where its 'we don't know what transpired in the Emperors point of view.'
Formosa wrote: All bluster and no substance, post the quote that EXPLICITLY states
A: what happened while the emperor was in there
B: the emperor told her EXACTLY what happened
C: EXACTLY what power Horus got
D: EXACTLY the “deal” or “power” the emperor got.
Otherwise your just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us, and you should stop passing it off as fact.
I don't need to. That's what you need for it to be true. We don't know what happened when the Emperor was in there, we know he got powers. You have had an ever receding expectation of evidence. First you asked 'show me Sureka saying exactly that she knew' etc. and now we have narrowed it down and you are still giving the ridiculous, show me exactly what transpired in the gate.
You have made the claim, you must provide the evidence, the above is the same question rephrased notning more, thus far you have comprehensably failed to provide any answer that it not based on conjecture and your personal take on the events.
So, for the last time, prove what you are stating.
Formosa wrote: All bluster and no substance, post the quote that EXPLICITLY states
A: what happened while the emperor was in there
B: the emperor told her EXACTLY what happened
C: EXACTLY what power Horus got
D: EXACTLY the “deal” or “power” the emperor got.
Otherwise your just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us, and you should stop passing it off as fact.
I don't need to. That's what you need for it to be true. We don't know what happened when the Emperor was in there, we know he got powers. You have had an ever receding expectation of evidence. First you asked 'show me Sureka saying exactly that she knew' etc. and now we have narrowed it down and you are still giving the ridiculous, show me exactly what transpired in the gate.
You have made the claim, you must provide the evidence, the above is the same question rephrased notning more, thus far you have changed comprehensably failed to provide any answer that it not based on conjecture and your personal take on the events.
So, for the last time, prove what you are stating.
address my points then, explain in what world could this happen " She is an agent of the Emperor, she knew of Molech and the powers the Emperor got for at least over 20 millennium before Horus even existed, Horus was told by the Emperor (chaos didn't tell him) what transpired on Molech backing up her story and Chaos said what the Emperor got also backing up both of their stories. So all three accounts are lying and making up an account and they all accidentally came up with the same very specific account." How could they all come up with the same answer. An agent of the Emperor, Horus' memory and Chaos all coming up with the same answer,how did that happen.
The evidence is all there. You just choose not to see it, unless the Emperor said it it isn't true. That's the only burden of proof you'll accept. You just ignore all the rest.
Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question. My premise comes from reading the book and the book saying this happened.
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
The only one stroking ego is you. Has it not occured to you that if the BL writing team has been so bloody careful not to give us easy direct answers from the Emperor that maybe JUST MAYBE it's because they're going out of their way to avoid direct statements of things? that the INTENT is to avoid giving us the "utter truth"?
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
The only one stroking ego is you. Has it not occured to you that if the BL writing team has been so bloody careful not to give us easy direct answers from the Emperor that maybe JUST MAYBE it's because they're going out of their way to avoid direct statements of things? that the INTENT is to avoid giving us the "utter truth"?
Well I can at least admit I'm wrong and concede points so I doubt I'm stroking my ego. It is true though multiple people took a stance on this without knowing the lore. But they are jumped at the chance of proving me wrong lol I mean read the beginning of the thread, I wasn't being an arse, I was merely stating people were wrong on points. But for some reason you's all took all this personally. The only contentious thing I said was that captain picard didn't read the book and that's because he hadn't actually read it. People get pissed off when you correct them on the lore, doesn't bother me in the slightest. Because we all do.
If the writer was implicit about it then I'd agree, when he said x did this multiple times in multiple different ways and across two novels that's enough for me.
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
Blah blah blah blah, still waiting for that “proof” you have.
Due to all the arguing I'm going to go right back to the original post.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to gain more power and create the Primarch's, I wonder how he hasn't fallen to chaos (I know he's the melon-fething Emperor) but even he said to Magnus that you can't deal with the powers of the warp and stay whole, I wonder what he lost, or maybe he was saying what normal mortals lose to chaos. I think that maybe he lost the ability to reincarnate. Maybe he retains autonomy but when he 'really' dies, Drach'nyen will absorb him, keeping him prisoner so he can't reincarnate like a faustian bargain.
I agree that it's "pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal" ... to gain more power.
I feel He (The Emperor) is literally one of the very few characters in universe that is able to resist Chaos almost entirely.
I don't believe He lost the ability to reincarnate ... in fact no one specifically in lore knows that He even can, most of us assume He can because He is immortal and in universe immortals are perpetuals and perpetuals can regenerate.
How about this random idea.
The Emperor went into the Warp and met with the Eldar Gods. Gained knowledge and power from them in order to come up with a plan to defeat Chaos and then left ... he then used knowledge of the Webway (gained from the Eldard Gods) to safely return to Terra without a star ship.
Horus went in afterwards but he actually went to the Chaos Gods. Performed whatever tests they wanted and "won" the power. Got twisted into thinking that he was the "master of chaos" (Horus quote from original lore) and then went after The Emperor.
Mellow wrote: Due to all the arguing I'm going to go right back to the original post.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to gain more power and create the Primarch's, I wonder how he hasn't fallen to chaos (I know he's the melon-fething Emperor) but even he said to Magnus that you can't deal with the powers of the warp and stay whole, I wonder what he lost, or maybe he was saying what normal mortals lose to chaos. I think that maybe he lost the ability to reincarnate. Maybe he retains autonomy but when he 'really' dies, Drach'nyen will absorb him, keeping him prisoner so he can't reincarnate like a faustian bargain.
I agree that it's "pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal" ... to gain more power.
I feel He (The Emperor) is literally one of the very few characters in universe that is able to resist Chaos almost entirely.
I don't believe He lost the ability to reincarnate ... in fact no one specifically in lore knows that He even can, most of us assume He can because He is immortal and in universe immortals are perpetuals and perpetuals can regenerate.
How about this random idea.
The Emperor went into the Warp and met with the Eldar Gods. Gained knowledge and power from them in order to come up with a plan to defeat Chaos and then left ... he then used knowledge of the Webway (gained from the Eldard Gods) to safely return to Terra without a star ship.
Horus went in afterwards but he actually went to the Chaos Gods. Performed whatever tests they wanted and "won" the power. Got twisted into thinking that he was the "master of chaos" (Horus quote from original lore) and then went after The Emperor.
It's certainly possiable. that's the thing, we know the emperor used the gateway at Molech, we know after he emerged from it again at least one person THINKS he was more powerful. We know that Chaos (who lie like a Carpet) claims that the Emperor renaged on deals made with them. And we know that Horus thinks he aquired a measure of the same power (there is in MY opinion considerable evidance to suggest Horus may be wrong about that BTW) we don't know for sure a deal was struck, nor if one was made, what each party got out of it. I do think the idea that it was "the power to create the primarchs" has a few holes in it, namely if chaos was the gatekeepers of that knowlledge surely fabius bile would have struck a bargin.
I kinda wonder if maybe the creation of the Primarchs was intended to be a partnership. with the emperor providing the physical science and chaos providing the "warp power" with the idea of creating perfect beings that would straddle the two universes. it would explain why exactly HALF of the primarchs fell.
Mellow wrote: Due to all the arguing I'm going to go right back to the original post.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to gain more power and create the Primarch's, I wonder how he hasn't fallen to chaos (I know he's the melon-fething Emperor) but even he said to Magnus that you can't deal with the powers of the warp and stay whole, I wonder what he lost, or maybe he was saying what normal mortals lose to chaos. I think that maybe he lost the ability to reincarnate. Maybe he retains autonomy but when he 'really' dies, Drach'nyen will absorb him, keeping him prisoner so he can't reincarnate like a faustian bargain.
I agree that it's "pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal" ... to gain more power.
I feel He (The Emperor) is literally one of the very few characters in universe that is able to resist Chaos almost entirely.
I don't believe He lost the ability to reincarnate ... in fact no one specifically in lore knows that He even can, most of us assume He can because He is immortal and in universe immortals are perpetuals and perpetuals can regenerate.
How about this random idea.
The Emperor went into the Warp and met with the Eldar Gods. Gained knowledge and power from them in order to come up with a plan to defeat Chaos and then left ... he then used knowledge of the Webway (gained from the Eldard Gods) to safely return to Terra without a star ship.
Horus went in afterwards but he actually went to the Chaos Gods. Performed whatever tests they wanted and "won" the power. Got twisted into thinking that he was the "master of chaos" (Horus quote from original lore) and then went after The Emperor.
It fits the description, and his actions afterwards. And getting knowledge of the webway and the ‘truth’ of what chaos and the warp IS would allow him to one day (after his own experimentation) create Primarchs (using some ‘stuff of the warp’) without just directly gaining the Secret of Primarch-making from Chaos, which would explain why he doesn’t do it for 5000 years!
In that situation, Chaos could be pissed off because he used ‘their’ gateway to get in, or tricked them into letting him in.
That is very interesting. I like the idea of that. It explains the webway side of things and puts another twist on the emperor. It doesn’t make him a goody still because of all the genocides against all xenos (including eldar).
Where the eldar gods still around though. I thought they were dead. I get confused timing wise on that side of things.
Mellow wrote: Due to all the arguing I'm going to go right back to the original post.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to gain more power and create the Primarch's, I wonder how he hasn't fallen to chaos (I know he's the melon-fething Emperor) but even he said to Magnus that you can't deal with the powers of the warp and stay whole, I wonder what he lost, or maybe he was saying what normal mortals lose to chaos. I think that maybe he lost the ability to reincarnate. Maybe he retains autonomy but when he 'really' dies, Drach'nyen will absorb him, keeping him prisoner so he can't reincarnate like a faustian bargain.
I agree that it's "pretty much cannon that the Emperor made a deal" ... to gain more power.
I feel He (The Emperor) is literally one of the very few characters in universe that is able to resist Chaos almost entirely.
I don't believe He lost the ability to reincarnate ... in fact no one specifically in lore knows that He even can, most of us assume He can because He is immortal and in universe immortals are perpetuals and perpetuals can regenerate.
How about this random idea.
The Emperor went into the Warp and met with the Eldar Gods. Gained knowledge and power from them in order to come up with a plan to defeat Chaos and then left ... he then used knowledge of the Webway (gained from the Eldard Gods) to safely return to Terra without a star ship.
Horus went in afterwards but he actually went to the Chaos Gods. Performed whatever tests they wanted and "won" the power. Got twisted into thinking that he was the "master of chaos" (Horus quote from original lore) and then went after The Emperor.
That's a pretty interesting idea. The only issue I see with it is none of the current Eldar knowing about it like the Phoenix Lords.
I think the Emperor can definitely reincarnate somehow but he can't until he's 100% dead which would cause a lot of problems in the Imperium.
I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Mellow wrote: I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Harlequins deal directly with Cegorach as he's the only Eldar God who's in a decent condition. More recently you have people interacting with Ynnead via the Ynnari and I believe the Phoenix Lords are following a plan of Asuryan based on the Phoenix Lord novels. But Asuryan supposedly foresaw things so he could easily use the Emperor.
Mellow wrote: I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Harlequins deal directly with Cegorach as he's the only Eldar God who's in a decent condition. More recently you have people interacting with Ynnead via the Ynnari and I believe the Phoenix Lords are following a plan of Asuryan based on the Phoenix Lord novels. But Asuryan supposedly foresaw things so he could easily use the Emperor.
So Asuryan has a plan for something? Does it state what he made a plan for specifically?
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
Blah blah blah blah, still waiting for that “proof” you have.
Still couldn't answer the question. I've given you proof, its just proof you don't like.
Mellow wrote: I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Harlequins deal directly with Cegorach as he's the only Eldar God who's in a decent condition. More recently you have people interacting with Ynnead via the Ynnari and I believe the Phoenix Lords are following a plan of Asuryan based on the Phoenix Lord novels. But Asuryan supposedly foresaw things so he could easily use the Emperor.
So Asuryan has a plan for something? Does it state what he made a plan for specifically?
No, just the Phoenix Lords gather at their first temple and they all get a vision of what to do next. That and a Farseer who looks at their 'strand' of fate seeing that the Phoenix Lords effectively forge their own path that drags others into it make me think that they're following a plan of Asuryans. I'd guess it's about defeating Chaos as that's the key to restoring the Eldar to their former place.
Mellow wrote: I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Harlequins deal directly with Cegorach as he's the only Eldar God who's in a decent condition. More recently you have people interacting with Ynnead via the Ynnari and I believe the Phoenix Lords are following a plan of Asuryan based on the Phoenix Lord novels. But Asuryan supposedly foresaw things so he could easily use the Emperor.
So Asuryan has a plan for something? Does it state what he made a plan for specifically?
No, just the Phoenix Lords gather at their first temple and they all get a vision of what to do next. That and a Farseer who looks at their 'strand' of fate seeing that the Phoenix Lords effectively forge their own path that drags others into it make me think that they're following a plan of Asuryans. I'd guess it's about defeating Chaos as that's the key to restoring the Eldar to their former place.
I'm not sure if Farseers can see a phoenix lords path.
I think a Phoenix lords strand isn’t pre destined but the past can be seen and it intertwined with every souls that merges with that of the Phoenix lord. U see them all coming together I think. The destinati9n not so much. That’s what I got from the path of the eldar books but not read them for a while.
Mellow wrote: I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Harlequins deal directly with Cegorach as he's the only Eldar God who's in a decent condition. More recently you have people interacting with Ynnead via the Ynnari and I believe the Phoenix Lords are following a plan of Asuryan based on the Phoenix Lord novels. But Asuryan supposedly foresaw things so he could easily use the Emperor.
So Asuryan has a plan for something? Does it state what he made a plan for specifically?
No, just the Phoenix Lords gather at their first temple and they all get a vision of what to do next. That and a Farseer who looks at their 'strand' of fate seeing that the Phoenix Lords effectively forge their own path that drags others into it make me think that they're following a plan of Asuryans. I'd guess it's about defeating Chaos as that's the key to restoring the Eldar to their former place.
I'm not sure if Farseers can see a phoenix lords path.
You can see where they've been pretty easily. They're like a piece of rope amongst loads of little threads.
Mellow wrote: I agree there’s holes in it but it does kind of fit with the whole Eldar hate Chaos mantra. Also I think it’s only really the harlequins that deal with any form of Eldar God (correct me if I’m wrong I’m not up to speed on Eldar lore)
Harlequins deal directly with Cegorach as he's the only Eldar God who's in a decent condition. More recently you have people interacting with Ynnead via the Ynnari and I believe the Phoenix Lords are following a plan of Asuryan based on the Phoenix Lord novels. But Asuryan supposedly foresaw things so he could easily use the Emperor.
So Asuryan has a plan for something? Does it state what he made a plan for specifically?
No, just the Phoenix Lords gather at their first temple and they all get a vision of what to do next. That and a Farseer who looks at their 'strand' of fate seeing that the Phoenix Lords effectively forge their own path that drags others into it make me think that they're following a plan of Asuryans. I'd guess it's about defeating Chaos as that's the key to restoring the Eldar to their former place.
I'm not sure if Farseers can see a phoenix lords path.
You can see where they've been pretty easily. They're like a piece of rope amongst loads of little threads.
Yeah, I think it was path of the seer I think the Farseer tried to see the path of Karandras and couldn't.
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
Blah blah blah blah, still waiting for that “proof” you have.
Still couldn't answer the question. I've given you proof, its just proof you don't like.
Re read the thread, still don’t see the proof you posted, I see a lot of theory you passed of as fact and a lot of quotes, none of which answer the questions i have asked you to prove, multiple times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have re read the thread I mean
Formosa wrote: Deflection won’t work on me Delvarus, your central premise needs to be clarified first, you have made the original assertion and based your conjecture on that, you prove your basic premise and we can happily work from there, until that happens everything else is flawed.
You can't, answer that. you know you can't. Its not deflection, I've proved everything I need to, you just refuse to accept all the massive amounts of evidence I've given you. You've asked for evidence to prove this happened and you continue to ask for more. Your premise is actually flawed, you took up a position, without even reading the book. You've gotten the lore so wrong on this thread and you couldn't even answer questions on the book and I gave you a lot, you couldn't answer a single one. So there is no point debating with you, unless you answer my question.
And there we have it, back to form, your so predictable
Long story short you have no proof and continue to pass your head cannon off as fact, you have been called out by several on this very thread and still play the victim.
You couldn't answer a single one of these before, lets see if you've actually read the book now: "If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?"
How is the novel saying something happened head cannon. You just don't like accounts of the characters who said it happened.
Playing the victim, when. You lot banding together to stroke your egos doesn't bother me, but you are obviously all wrong, so like I said you people will do anything to prove me wrong because I've done so to you's in the past and you hate my arrogance, plus I proved you never read this novel, that makes you even more mad lol
Yeah thought you couldn't answer them again lol So predictable or just right?
Blah blah blah blah, still waiting for that “proof” you have.
Still couldn't answer the question. I've given you proof, its just proof you don't like.
Re read the thread, still don’t see the proof you posted, I see a lot of theory you passed of as fact and a lot of quotes, none of which answer the questions i have asked you to prove, multiple times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have re read the thread I mean
Well you aren't looking very hard. I gave you proof, you just don't like being proven wrong so you have continued to modify your expectation of proof as I give you the proof you ask for, until a point where you will only except the Emperor saying what happened from his own mouth, creating a little bubble for you where you can think you are right. I don't need to prove anything more to you. If you want proof go and actually read the book, you'll find it.
You don't even apply or expect the same burden of proof from yourself, this is you from another thread:
"Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned."
How do you know the Emperors origin when when the exact instance hasn't been written, or written from the point of view of the Emperor. Why did you not also preface that statement with 'yeah but we weren't there so, technically we can't know.'
I mean this is what your argument sounds like to me.
As far as I’m concerned the “current” lore says He was born in 8,000BC in Anatolia to human parents a year after a mass shaman suicide/sacrifice/plan to create the “new man”.
If the Horus Heresy series or a new novel is released any time from now that contradicts/reboots/amends or replaces that then I will take that new novel as canon.
I have not changed my stance, not a single time, I have requested time and time again that you prove what you have claimed, so far you have not done so, if you have actually done it, why not re post it eh? Since it’s so easy?
As to the emperor, has his origin been retconned? Sacrifice of shamens blah blah blah and all that?
If so, please do show me where, I’d like to read it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mellow wrote: As far as I’m concerned the “current” lore says He was born in 8,000BC in Anatolia to human parents a year after a mass shaman suicide/sacrifice/plan to create the “new man”.
If the Horus Heresy series or a new novel is released any time from now that contradicts/reboots/amends or replaces that then I will take that new novel as canon.
Formosa wrote: I have not changed my stance, not a single time, I have requested time and time again that you prove what you have claimed, so far you have not done so, if you have actually done it, why not re post it eh? Since it’s so easy?
As to the emperor, has his origin been retconned? Sacrifice of shamens blah blah blah and all that?
If so, please do show me where, I’d like to read it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mellow wrote: As far as I’m concerned the “current” lore says He was born in 8,000BC in Anatolia to human parents a year after a mass shaman suicide/sacrifice/plan to create the “new man”.
If the Horus Heresy series or a new novel is released any time from now that contradicts/reboots/amends or replaces that then I will take that new novel as canon.
Yeah I agree with you.
""Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us" "
I gave you proof where she knows exactly what the Emperor got, then you changed your burden of proof to 'tell me what happened exactly in gateway with the Emperor.
The proof is based on her testimony and of Horus' and chaos all saying the same thing. Again did they all accidentally come up with the exact same story, that is very precise, they all knew of the emperor travelling to Molech, the Emperor stealing or bargaining for power. How did three such different testimonies come up with the same story, Alivia coming up with it millenniums before Horus was even made, Horus knowing from being reminded from his first visit to Molech and chaos same version.
You don't except the same burden of proof, you are happy to state factually that the Emperor was born from shamans, but in the same source in rogue trader it says that no one really knows of his origins. But you made a factual claim and didn't say what you are saying here, you didn't say 'yeah but no one actually witnessed it so.'
No you didn’t, you gave me her conjecture, then based yours upon it, Horus testimony is totally warped so unreliable at best.
So post the quote that states everything I have asked for several times.
“As to the emperor, has his origin been retconned”
“If so, please show me where, I’d like to read it”
So yep, I’m happy to say the emperors origin hasn’t changed and it pretty well established, but I’m open to new info that changes it, kind of flies in the face of your last point eh?
Formosa wrote: No you didn’t, you gave me her conjecture, then based yours upon it, Horus testimony is totally warped so unreliable at best.
So post the quote that states everything I have asked for several times.
“As to the emperor, has his origin been retconned”
“If so, please show me where, I’d like to read it”
So yep, I’m happy to say the emperors origin hasn’t changed and it pretty well established, but I’m open to new info that changes it, kind of flies in the face of your last point eh?
No the book SAYS, Sureka KNOWS what the Emperor got and the nature of the gateway, that is not conjecture.
Horus' testimony isn't unreliable, nothing suggests that in the book but his testimony isn't that important anyways.
It hasn't been retconned, the shaman theory is just that, a theory.
Of course The Emperor got more power. I mean specifically we don't know what He got. It could be knowledge but according to Sureka the power was bleeding off Him when He returned from the Realm of Chaos.
It may just be that He got a "battery upgrade" instead of just having a car battery in his psychic head He came back with a fusion reactor power up upgrade.
I suspect that is why He's SO glowy and bright when people look at Him. Whether He was like that prior to Molech isn't specifically stated but I'm going to guess He wasn't quite like that before.
Also, in the Rogue Trader source it may well say that no one really knows his origins ... and I also believe that because it's meant to be so long ago in-universe. But I'm OK with it being the perceived truth until (as I say earlier) something more recent comes along to update and/or replace it.
I mean if they do replace it with something else I'm hoping it is suitably amazing.
Mellow wrote: Of course The Emperor got more power. I mean specifically we don't know what He got. It could be knowledge but according to Sureka the power was bleeding off Him when He returned from the Realm of Chaos.
It may just be that He got a "battery upgrade" instead of just having a car battery in his psychic head He came back with a fusion reactor power up upgrade.
I suspect that is why He's SO glowy and bright when people look at Him. Whether He was like that prior to Molech isn't specifically stated but I'm going to guess He wasn't quite like that before.
Also, in the Rogue Trader source it may well say that no one really knows his origins ... and I also believe that because it's meant to be so long ago in-universe. But I'm OK with it being the perceived truth until (as I say earlier) something more recent comes along to update and/or replace it.
I mean if they do replace it with something else I'm hoping it is suitably amazing.
All I've ever said is that he got power from there. I never said specifically what power he got, although I've shown that Chaos says he got the power to make the Primarchs,and just that Horus got the same powers, but I'll say Horus getting the same powers isn't concrete fact as Sureka only knows what the Emperor got, she assumes Horus got the same, which is another reason why Sureka also knows, including her saying she 'knows' exactly what the Emperor got. But the Emperor did get powers there. Most people on the thread agree with me, that the Emperor got powers, but still we are still here.
Mellow wrote: Also, in the Rogue Trader source it may well say that no one really knows his origins ... and I also believe that because it's meant to be so long ago in-universe. But I'm OK with it being the perceived truth until (as I say earlier) something more recent comes along to update and/or replace it.
I mean if they do replace it with something else I'm hoping it is suitably amazing.
One of the things I ove about the recent fluff is the idea (shared among some Terran Leaders) that the whole ancient backstory is a lie, and that he’s just a bio-weapon from the Dark Age ofTechnology run amok!
I mean, it’s probably not true but I like the idea that it might be
Mellow wrote: Also, in the Rogue Trader source it may well say that no one really knows his origins ... and I also believe that because it's meant to be so long ago in-universe. But I'm OK with it being the perceived truth until (as I say earlier) something more recent comes along to update and/or replace it.
I mean if they do replace it with something else I'm hoping it is suitably amazing.
One of the things I ove about the recent fluff is the idea (shared among some Terran Leaders) that the whole ancient backstory is a lie, and that he’s just a bio-weapon from the Dark Age ofTechnology run amok!
I mean, it’s probably not true but I like the idea that it might be
Well the Primarchs were made so, It wouldn't be crazy for that to have happened.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying. But if malcador was the real brains then how is Malcador going to power and direct the astronomicum, hold back chaos and fight Horus at the same time. If the Emperor is just a showy figure head, why would Malcador send him to fight Horus, who would sit on the throne and do what Malcador did. Malcador can't just be the brains, he also has to be a being as powerful as the Emperor and if Malcador was going to fight Horus who'd take his place on the golden throne? Because whoever the Emperor was, they couldn't do all that needed to be done on the throne and fight Horus.
There needs to be a powerful psyker on the golden throne and a powerful psyker to fight Horus, If the real emperor was on the throne and the figure head fought Horus then the Emperor would be fine and still be alive. If the figure head was on the throne and Malcador fought Horus, Ah actually Malcador still could have fought Horus and the figure head would die on the throne, that could be right never mind what I said.
What does my age have to do with anything?
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying.
This is one of the more amusing quotes of this overlong thread. Everything you state after that sentence shows you don't really know what he's saying at all. It's quite illuminating, in fact, as a demonstration of the way you tend to debate things. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody is saying Malcador was the brains behind the operation but it's still an amusing theory.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying.
This is one of the more amusing quotes of this overlong thread. Everything you state after that sentence shows you don't really know what he's saying at all. It's quite illuminating, in fact, as a demonstration of the way you tend to debate things. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody is saying Malcador was the brains behind the operation but it's still an amusing theory.
I did know what he was saying, I was trying to debunk that with logic but then I just found out that I was wrong in what I was thinking, I was left wanting in this example, logic dun failed me, so what. Look back on your comments on this thread. I wouldn't bring up my debating skills. All your debating tactics are pretty poor, I said the Emperor got powers on Molech, everyone contradicts me, 9 pages of the thread later, everyone agrees with me.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying.
This is one of the more amusing quotes of this overlong thread. Everything you state after that sentence shows you don't really know what he's saying at all. It's quite illuminating, in fact, as a demonstration of the way you tend to debate things. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody is saying Malcador was the brains behind the operation but it's still an amusing theory.
I did know what he was saying, I was trying to debunk that with logic but then I just found out that I was wrong in what I was thinking, I was left wanting in this example, logic dun failed me, so what. Look back on your comments on this thread. I wouldn't bring up my debating skills. All your debating tactics are pretty poor, I said the Emperor got powers on Molech, everyone contradicts me, 9 pages of the thread later, everyone agrees with me.
I think you may be confused. I don't think anyone has debated whether the Emperor got powers on Molech. We're all in agreement about that. The debate is about the nature of those powers, specifically as they relate to what Horus got. If you're not even sure what the discussion is about it's no wonder you're having trouble understanding people's arguments.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying.
This is one of the more amusing quotes of this overlong thread. Everything you state after that sentence shows you don't really know what he's saying at all. It's quite illuminating, in fact, as a demonstration of the way you tend to debate things. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody is saying Malcador was the brains behind the operation but it's still an amusing theory.
I did know what he was saying, I was trying to debunk that with logic but then I just found out that I was wrong in what I was thinking, I was left wanting in this example, logic dun failed me, so what. Look back on your comments on this thread. I wouldn't bring up my debating skills. All your debating tactics are pretty poor, I said the Emperor got powers on Molech, everyone contradicts me, 9 pages of the thread later, everyone agrees with me.
I think you may be confused. I don't think anyone has debated whether the Emperor got powers on Molech. We're all in agreement about that. The debate is about the nature of those powers, specifically as they relate to what Horus got. If you're not even sure what the discussion is about it's no wonder you're having trouble understanding people's arguments.
I've never said exactly what the Emperor got, just that he got powers, so I don't know were you get that from. People were debating, saying we don't know what I he got and through the thread I've given countless evidence, proving that he got 'powers' and then you all agreed, I was giving a dog a bone, by just saying you all agree with me, you only agree with me now. Re-read the thread, you'll see.
I mean this is your quote, arguing when I said he got powers:
"We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.
So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation."
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying.
This is one of the more amusing quotes of this overlong thread. Everything you state after that sentence shows you don't really know what he's saying at all. It's quite illuminating, in fact, as a demonstration of the way you tend to debate things. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody is saying Malcador was the brains behind the operation but it's still an amusing theory.
I did know what he was saying, I was trying to debunk that with logic but then I just found out that I was wrong in what I was thinking, I was left wanting in this example, logic dun failed me, so what. Look back on your comments on this thread. I wouldn't bring up my debating skills. All your debating tactics are pretty poor, I said the Emperor got powers on Molech, everyone contradicts me, 9 pages of the thread later, everyone agrees with me.
I think you may be confused. I don't think anyone has debated whether the Emperor got powers on Molech. We're all in agreement about that. The debate is about the nature of those powers, specifically as they relate to what Horus got. If you're not even sure what the discussion is about it's no wonder you're having trouble understanding people's arguments.
I've never said exactly what the Emperor got, just that he got powers, so I don't know were you get that from. People were debating, saying we don't know what I he got and through the thread I've given countless evidence, proving that he got 'powers' and then you all agreed, I was giving a dog a bone, by just saying you all agree with me, you only agree with me now. Re-read the thread, you'll see.
I mean this is your quote, arguing when I said he got powers:
"We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.
So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation."
Nothing in my quote says the Emperor didn't get power after entering the gate at Molech. That entire quote is about the nature of the power compared to what Horus gained. The debate is about the nature of the powers. You seem incapable of understanding that. You also seem incapable of following the arguments other people make, as shown by you quoting the passage above, which makes debating with you pretty pointless. I know it's easier to debate with people when you ignore what they say and argue what you think they've said but it makes the whole process kind of pointless. It explains the frustrations that seem to show up in pretty much every thread you're involved in on this forum though.
BrianDavion wrote: I've often wondered if the REAL emperor is Malchador and the guy we THINK is the Emperor is just a "super primarch" front man.
I don't think so, it took the Emperor an exteme amount of concentration to hold chaos back from the webway, he barely was able to speak to anyone, only Ra and Corax briefly, he couldn't even talk to Malcador but we'll leave him out. So I don't think the Emperor could hold back chaos, power and direct the astronomicum and fight Horus all at the same time.
you're missing the point, I'm not saying the emperor isn't as powerful as he seems to be, I'm saying he's a front man and that the brains of the operation is Malchador.
No, what I mean is that only malcador could have powered and guided the astronomicum and held chaos back from the webway while the Emperor fought Horus, I doubt the Emperor could have done all of that himself and fight Horus, because he'd have to by himself if he was also Malcador.
He not saying the emperor was malcador. He was saying that malcador was the real brains of the operation and the emperor (a separate person) was a showy frontman selling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest Delvarus how old are u?
I know what he's saying.
This is one of the more amusing quotes of this overlong thread. Everything you state after that sentence shows you don't really know what he's saying at all. It's quite illuminating, in fact, as a demonstration of the way you tend to debate things. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody is saying Malcador was the brains behind the operation but it's still an amusing theory.
I did know what he was saying, I was trying to debunk that with logic but then I just found out that I was wrong in what I was thinking, I was left wanting in this example, logic dun failed me, so what. Look back on your comments on this thread. I wouldn't bring up my debating skills. All your debating tactics are pretty poor, I said the Emperor got powers on Molech, everyone contradicts me, 9 pages of the thread later, everyone agrees with me.
I think you may be confused. I don't think anyone has debated whether the Emperor got powers on Molech. We're all in agreement about that. The debate is about the nature of those powers, specifically as they relate to what Horus got. If you're not even sure what the discussion is about it's no wonder you're having trouble understanding people's arguments.
I've never said exactly what the Emperor got, just that he got powers, so I don't know were you get that from. People were debating, saying we don't know what I he got and through the thread I've given countless evidence, proving that he got 'powers' and then you all agreed, I was giving a dog a bone, by just saying you all agree with me, you only agree with me now. Re-read the thread, you'll see.
I mean this is your quote, arguing when I said he got powers:
"We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.
So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation."
Nothing in my quote says the Emperor didn't get power after entering the gate at Molech. That entire quote is about the nature of the power compared to what Horus gained. The debate is about the nature of the powers. You seem incapable of understanding that. You also seem incapable of following the arguments other people make, as shown by you quoting the passage above, which makes debating with you pretty pointless. I know it's easier to debate with people when you ignore what they say and argue what you think they've said but it makes the whole process kind of pointless. It explains the frustrations that seem to show up in pretty much every thread you're involved in on this forum though.
No that is in reply to my point that the Emperor got powers. The debate was what did the Emperor have to give up in his deal with chaos, but then people started to say we don't know what he got, then I quote Horus, then they say he can't be trusted then I quote Sureka, then they say she can't be trusted etc. Find any quote where I had said exactly what the Emperor got and not just powers, you can't and if you can't then why has the thread gone on 9 pages, do you see now why I constantly was saying how ridiculous this was. Everyone is trying to prove this lore wrong and they end up agreeing 9 pages later, its quite funny.
This is literally a comment I made on the first page, like the 5th comment:
"In this point Erebus could be telling a lie but the original point that the Emperor took powers from the same place on Molech is definitely not a lie. The point of a bargain vs taking the power is just the point I was making to your original point that you thought that the Emperor only stole the power rather than bargained for them, as there are more versions of that in the lore. That the Emperor went to Molech to get powers is the absolute, though what he got and how he got the powers isn't fact because the Emperor has never said what he got from Molech but its pretty obvious that he got powers to make the Primarch's"
Seriously read the thread again.
I mean that is why I was saying people are being (behind hurt) can't actually say the phrase as you all report me and I've already had 3 warnings. The people arguing were people I'd argued with on other threads who wanted retribution lol, people who didn't know the lore or people that were just agreeing with the consensus and 1 or 2 actually new the lore, because they all had no reason to be arguing with me, especially since they all ended up having to except the evidence and agreeing with me at the end.. Seriously read the thread again, its funny.
How many people have to point this out dev? We all think I are missing the point. I just want to sure we are not being harsh on a twelve year old.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way. No one has agreed with you and you haven’t convinced anyone of anything. The fact you think you have is hilarious.
Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
I've mentioned this. Just scroll past it is Devs advice.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
I’ve got Dev on ignore, which helps the whole post length thing massively.
Edit - *looks at the top of this page* - I mean, it’s helped, but not totally solved the problem....
I’m wondering, given that we don’t know for certain what the emperor got from the gods (bargain, power, primarch goo), what do you guys think he did get?
Also I was wondering what malcador means when he said “he wasn’t the emperor until he met me”
Malcadors basically just a really smart guy with mega psy powers right? So I'm thinking Malcador was basically a spymaster handling all the shady, political, PR and short term dealings while the Emperor made superhumans and planned galactic conquest. That takes him from being just an ambitious warlord to an actual Emperor.
I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
Andykp wrote: I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
I like the idea of the eldar thing too, I could imagine the emp working his way to isha (goddess of life IIRC), getting the info for the primarchs project or having her help give them life, that’s pure bonkers conjecture though with nothing to back it up to be fair.
Formosa wrote: I’m wondering, given that we don’t know for certain what the emperor got from the gods (bargain, power, primarch goo), what do you guys think he did get?
Also I was wondering what malcador means when he said “he wasn’t the emperor until he met me”
This gets back to my speculation that Malcador may have been the actual "brains" of the Imperium. with the Emperor being the figure head. In otherwords the emperor made the primarchs, conquered the galaxy etc. but Malcador figured out how they where going to rule etc.
Andykp wrote: I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
I like the idea of the eldar thing too, I could imagine the emp working his way to isha (goddess of life IIRC), getting the info for the primarchs project or having her help give them life, that’s pure bonkers conjecture though with nothing to back it up to be fair.
That might be why I like it???? Makes sense though. It would really pee off the chaos gods too. Don’t really know much about malcador. He to me is a relatively new addition. (It’s my age that’s the problem there)
Andykp wrote: I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
I like the idea of the eldar thing too, I could imagine the emp working his way to isha (goddess of life IIRC), getting the info for the primarchs project or having her help give them life, that’s pure bonkers conjecture though with nothing to back it up to be fair.
That might be why I like it???? Makes sense though. It would really pee off the chaos gods too. Don’t really know much about malcador. He to me is a relatively new addition. (It’s my age that’s the problem there)
Malchador's been around for awhile as I udnerstand it, but it's always been a pretty quiet thing, a minor bit of lore relating to the grey knights.
I still regard the dark eldar as upstarts. Dont even ask me about tau? What I know of him sounds good. Ties into quite a with grey knights and what have you. There was always going to be people around the emperor helping out. He does sound to have been in a position at least to nudge the emperor in the right direction if not guide him altogether. I think of him a bit like Lenin’s Trotsky. But that gets confusing when really the emperor is more like Stalin than Lenin.
Andykp wrote: I still regard the dark eldar as upstarts. Dont even ask me about tau? What I know of him sounds good. Ties into quite a with grey knights and what have you. There was always going to be people around the emperor helping out. He does sound to have been in a position at least to nudge the emperor in the right direction if not guide him altogether. I think of him a bit like Lenin’s Trotsky. But that gets confusing when really the emperor is more like Stalin than Lenin.
I dunno, Stalin was proably too nice to be the emperor
Andykp wrote: I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
I like the idea of the eldar thing too, I could imagine the emp working his way to isha (goddess of life IIRC), getting the info for the primarchs project or having her help give them life, that’s pure bonkers conjecture though with nothing to back it up to be fair.
That's a really, really cool take on it- it might even fulfill the words of Chaos saying the emperor "stole" something. Goodness knows sneaking intot he garden of nurgle to get the knowledge of life crafting/ warp binding/ whatever knowledge it would actually be called to make warp infused warlords to cut off the chaos gods from humanity would lead to them being angry.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Sigh... just go away dude, we had got back on track and you come back and throw yet another spanner in the works
Andykp wrote: I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
I like the idea of the eldar thing too, I could imagine the emp working his way to isha (goddess of life IIRC), getting the info for the primarchs project or having her help give them life, that’s pure bonkers conjecture though with nothing to back it up to be fair.
That's a really, really cool take on it- it might even fulfill the words of Chaos saying the emperor "stole" something. Goodness knows sneaking intot he garden of nurgle to get the knowledge of life crafting/ warp binding/ whatever knowledge it would actually be called to make warp infused warlords to cut off the chaos gods from humanity would lead to them being angry.
You know what, it would be interesting to read about the emperors interaction with the eldar and eldar gods, just read a comment from beast arises where Eldrad alludes to once having been the emperors friend... well ally at the very least.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Sigh... just go away dude, we had got back on track and you come back and throw yet another spanner in the works
Andykp wrote: I like the idea that he dealt with eldar gods or such like. I think he more probably took something that helped make the primarchs. As for deals, who knows, I’m sure if he did make a deal he never intended to keep. It. He’s not exactlY trustworthy.
I like the idea of the eldar thing too, I could imagine the emp working his way to isha (goddess of life IIRC), getting the info for the primarchs project or having her help give them life, that’s pure bonkers conjecture though with nothing to back it up to be fair.
That's a really, really cool take on it- it might even fulfill the words of Chaos saying the emperor "stole" something. Goodness knows sneaking intot he garden of nurgle to get the knowledge of life crafting/ warp binding/ whatever knowledge it would actually be called to make warp infused warlords to cut off the chaos gods from humanity would lead to them being angry.
You know what, it would be interesting to read about the emperors interaction with the eldar and eldar gods, just read a comment from beast arises where Eldrad alludes to once having been the emperors friend... well ally at the very least.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Damn you're really bothered about this aren't you? Take a break.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Damn you're really bothered about this aren't you? Take a break.
Yeah you all come to the conclusion that you agree with me, then you move on like you's are taking the high road. If someone says I'm whining etc. I'll be commenting. I don't 'try' to be right, I'll admit I'm wrong which none of you accept one person will do. I mean as for this thread I have proved you all wrong, you argue with me, I show you the evidence and then you all agree with me, you literally can't even argue with me now after that, just because there is a lot of you doesn't magically mean you're right but you lot can't ever face being wrong that you just have this echo chamber where if enough of you agree with each other you don't have to admit you were wrong. You would silence me if you's just admitted it and stopped with the, just ignore him now that he's proven us wrong, he's just an donkey-cave, he doesn't get subtext, he's 12 and doesn't know what he's talking about etc. nonsense.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Damn you're really bothered about this aren't you? Take a break.
Yeah you all come to the conclusion that you agree with me, then you move on like you's are taking the high road. If someone says I'm whining etc. I'll be commenting. I don't 'try' to be right, I'll admit I'm wrong which none of you accept one person will do. I mean as for this thread I have proved you all wrong, you argue with me, I show you the evidence and then you all agree with me, you literally can't even argue with me now after that, just because there is a lot of you doesn't magically mean you're right but you lot can't ever face being wrong that you just have this echo chamber where if enough of you agree with each other you don't have to admit you were wrong. You would silence me if you's just admitted it and stopped with the, just ignore him now that he's proven us wrong, he's just an donkey-cave, he doesn't get subtext, he's 12 and doesn't know what he's talking about etc. nonsense.
No one agrees with you, no one has agreed with since the start, we have just moved on to ignore you, if you want to join in go ahead, feel free, if you carry on with this nonsense then I’m gonna assume your just trolling and will hit the report button.
Mellow wrote: Christ. More bloody whining over who said what and when they said it to prove that they “won”.
Getting a bit boring. Especially with you two quoting entire posts which in of themselves contain quotes of whole posts. It’s very difficult to understand and even take in (especially in a mobile device).
Lol, you all realise that you are arguing about nothing and then you are saying I'm moaning, nope just pointing out facts as per usual. I mean you's can't admit anything that you've said is wrong, you have the luxury of saying stuff like you're just moaning and then everyone joins in and goes 'yeah he's just moaning, we aren't wrong' lol Its so hilarious. That's why I like to quote things you all say and I have the luxury of doing that, because I haven't said anything I haven't since the beginning, that you might actually one day say, yeah I was wrong there lol I have a dream lol I'm not wrong, cause subtext or something, you's all forget that you were actually wrong and then end up agreeing 100% with what I've said BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
As for my age, you can find it on this site, however troll 101 you never give anyone information on yourself as it can be used against you, but it would be funny if I was 12 lol A mere 12 year old making you arguing a point, forgetting that you are wrong because it's too hard to bare and then end up completely agreeing with me lol.
Damn you're really bothered about this aren't you? Take a break.
Yeah you all come to the conclusion that you agree with me, then you move on like you's are taking the high road. If someone says I'm whining etc. I'll be commenting. I don't 'try' to be right, I'll admit I'm wrong which none of you accept one person will do. I mean as for this thread I have proved you all wrong, you argue with me, I show you the evidence and then you all agree with me, you literally can't even argue with me now after that, just because there is a lot of you doesn't magically mean you're right but you lot can't ever face being wrong that you just have this echo chamber where if enough of you agree with each other you don't have to admit you were wrong. You would silence me if you's just admitted it and stopped with the, just ignore him now that he's proven us wrong, he's just an donkey-cave, he doesn't get subtext, he's 12 and doesn't know what he's talking about etc. nonsense.
No one agrees with you, no one has agreed with since the start, we have just moved on to ignore you, if you want to join in go ahead, feel free, if you carry on with this nonsense then I’m gonna assume your just trolling and will hit the report button.
Well you don't as you are still sticking to the 'we don't know it could have been power' You's are already constantly reporting me, go ahead. Its funny you are so confident now, seeing that I proved you hadn't read the book and then you barely commented, once or twice since the 2nd thread, you might think everyone else forgot I never do. Saying I'm 12 and that, that seems like trolling but its only okay when you people do it... Plus I'm not even trolling, I'm still sticking to the threads question. You all had to bail out and now you are trying to report me for continuing with the debate that has lasted 10 pages. That's suburb.
So delusional, you proved nothing, have yet to prove your original statement and have consistently insulted people on this thread, but have it your way Delvarus, you refused to stay on topic and have continued with your nonsense.
Formosa wrote: So delusional, you proved nothing, have yet to prove your original statement and have consistently insulted people on this thread, but have it your way Delvarus, you refused to stay on topic and have continued with your nonsense.
Reporting.
I proved that he got powers. If I'm delusional then what are you arguing about a book you haven't read. Everyone here argued with me about what the Emperor got, as the debate has gone on and I have proved that he did get powers everyone forgot about what they argued in the first place, then ended up agreeing that he got powers but then started arguing yeah but we don't actually know what powers, which Is what I said at the start and I'm the delusional one. Continuing to bring up you never read the book is not trolling its relative.
Alcibiades wrote: Why didn't Chaos just scatter the Primarchs into deep space?
That’s a good question, this is just a theory here but it’s supported by the fluff.
They wanted the primarchs for themselves, and by extension the legions, it could have been part of thier great game to have such powerful mortals on side, they could also have just wanted Them to kill the emperor, the plan could have been to make sure all the primarchs were currupted on Some level.
Or it could be as simple as they wanted to break the mortal plane and the legions were the best way to do it.
Chaos gets more power from sentient life feeding emotion to them than the immediate death of the Primarchs. Also twisting Primarchs to their cause is also far more useful in the long run.
Chaos gets more power from sentient life feeding emotion to them than the immediate death of the Primarchs. Also twisting Primarchs to their cause is also far more useful in the long run.
Yes, it seems likely part of Chaos's plan was to corrupt the Primarchs rather than kill them. We don't really know enough about their creation to say for sure how successful they were. Were Sanguinius's wings a Chaos mutation, or part of the Emperor's design, for example? If that was the Chaos God's plan you'd effectively have the "Great Crusade" being a massive daemonic incursion led by the Primarchs.
Chaos gets more power from sentient life feeding emotion to them than the immediate death of the Primarchs. Also twisting Primarchs to their cause is also far more useful in the long run.
Yes, it seems likely part of Chaos's plan was to corrupt the Primarchs rather than kill them. We don't really know enough about their creation to say for sure how successful they were. Were Sanguinius's wings a Chaos mutation, or part of the Emperor's design, for example? If that was the Chaos God's plan you'd effectively have the "Great Crusade" being a massive daemonic incursion led by the Primarchs.
I always thought they were a mutation. I don't see why they'd be designed.
