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Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





BrianDavion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?

About 5 years, from the end of the Ullanor campaign to Istvaan III. I personally believe the battle of Istavaan III to be the start of the Horus Heresy, even though Horus technically started making moves before then.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline


wow Chaos moved fast.

Take into account that Lorgar had been preparing for half a century, and the rest being 'wizards did it' or Primarchs going "meh, why not betray dad". The HH series really botched the conversion to traitor in a few books. Some motivations already made sense like the NL, some still don't like the IW emo-ing themselves into the HH or the AL's "I trust you random aliens I've never met before and would have massacred five minutes ago".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 08:15:00


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Take into account that Lorgar had been preparing for half a century, and the rest being 'wizards did it' or Primarchs going "meh, why not betray dad". The HH series really botched the conversion to traitor in a few books. Some motivations already made sense like the NL, some still don't like the IW emo-ing themselves into the HH or the AL's "I trust you random aliens I've never met before and would have massacred five minutes ago".

If you haven't read Angel Exterminatus, do it. It gives an amazing insight into why the Iron Warriors, and Perturabo in particular turned traitor.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Take into account that Lorgar had been preparing for half a century, and the rest being 'wizards did it' or Primarchs going "meh, why not betray dad". The HH series really botched the conversion to traitor in a few books. Some motivations already made sense like the NL, some still don't like the IW emo-ing themselves into the HH or the AL's "I trust you random aliens I've never met before and would have massacred five minutes ago".

If you haven't read Angel Exterminatus, do it. It gives an amazing insight into why the Iron Warriors, and Perturabo in particular turned traitor.

I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.

Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.

Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer just like his adoptive father did... Perturabo really hated that. All Perturabo really wanted to do was sit in a workshop somewhere and invent and build things, but the Emperor essentially forcefully conscripted him and then gave him the worst of the worst jobs over and over because none of the other Primarchs would take them. His brothers then proceeded to crap on him constantly for being an unsociable feth head, and swoop in at the last minute and steal all the glory of the victories that the IW did most of the work for.

It makes perfect sense to me why he turned, and honestly, IMO his is the most sympathetic story second only to Magnus and Angron.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 09:10:52


 
   
Made in nl
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w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.

Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.

Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer, despite Perturabo's desire of sitting in a workshop somewhere inventing and building things.

Yeah of course, but the Olympia atrocity only happene because of the path Perturabo pushed himself and the Legion down. That's the whole issue I have, before the HH series the IW were a Legion thrown into the meatgrinder and ignored and that made them resent the Emperor. Now its clear that this wasn't at all the case, it was their Primarch making them do those things but then its still the Emperor's fault?

The build up to Olympia gets totally undermined by the expanding fluff on the HH. Other Primarchs refused certain tasks and did their own things, yet somehow in the case of Perturabo he suddenly got forced by the Emperor? We now know other Legions refused garrison duties and Perturabo wanted to throw his own Legion into the meatgrinder, but now its his dad's fault for him volunteering? Its such bad writing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 09:13:52


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The build up to Olympia gets totally undermined by the expanding fluff on the HH. Other Primarchs refused certain tasks and did their own things, yet somehow in the case of Perturabo he suddenly got forced by the Emperor?

Someone had to do those jobs, all the other primarchs basically said "not it". Perturabo was left holding the bag, and didn't want to refuse because he wanted to be seen as loyal and dependable. I think his own stubbornness also had a role to play in that... no matter how difficult something was he always wanted to rise to the occasion and beat it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 09:15:28


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The build up to Olympia gets totally undermined by the expanding fluff on the HH. Other Primarchs refused certain tasks and did their own things, yet somehow in the case of Perturabo he suddenly got forced by the Emperor?

Someone had to do those jobs, all the other primarchs basically said "not it". Perturabo was left holding the bag, and didn't want to refuse because he wanted to be seen as loyal and dependable.

But that is the issue, it makes him out to be a petulant child for throwing a tantrum over his own actions. It destroys some of the mystique of the HH. Sometimes not all the blanks have to be filled in. If the HH series had the Emperor somehow pressuring the IW into doing it and not the other Legions (as in favoritism) it would have been so much better. But its clear he could have just said no without any consequences. Now we have a monster of Frankenstein like combination of the old and new lore that just doesn't mesh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 09:19:41


 
   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If the HH series had the Emperor somehow pressuring the IW into doing it and not the other Legions (as in favoritism) it would have been so much better.

What makes you think this wasn't going on behind the scenes? It was pretty strongly implied this was the case in Angel Exterminatus.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If the HH series had the Emperor somehow pressuring the IW into doing it and not the other Legions (as in favoritism) it would have been so much better.

What makes you think this wasn't going on behind the scenes? It was pretty strongly implied this was the case in Angel Exterminatus.

Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so. The issue is that the IW are not looking at their own role objectively while other books have shown it was Perturabo doubling down on their gak role while others just declined those orders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 09:22:40


 
   
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 ArbitorIan wrote:
I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.

Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.

Is this like the Martel of the background section? I don't come here often but this seems to be how every single thread this guy makes goes. Honestly though, Martel isn't even this bad so it's probably not fair of me to have made that comparison.

Though at times it's not even proving them wrong, its more vague like using something a character said rather than what would be fact to the story; second handed information like that isn't always accurate cause while some writers use dialogue to convey plot points not all of them do. Really, even when they do it feels lazy.

   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so.

It doesn't matter if it was objectively happening or not, Perturabo felt that it was, so it was real to him, and was a major reason why he ended up turning because it pushed him to start down that path.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so.

It doesn't matter if it was objectively happening or not, Perturabo felt that it was, so it was real to him, and was a major reason why he ended up turning because it pushed him to start down that path.

Yeah but again, that's my issue, the HH series as it is set up now makes Perturabo sound like a petulant child when the rest of it doesn't back up what Perturabo believes, it could have been handled so much better. Its almost on the level of the AL and the Cabal... almost...
   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Because that is what Perturabo feels is happening, not objectively stating that the Emperor did so.

It doesn't matter if it was objectively happening or not, Perturabo felt that it was, so it was real to him, and was a major reason why he ended up turning because it pushed him to start down that path.

Yeah but again, that's my issue, the HH series as it is set up now makes Perturabo sound like a petulant child when the rest of it doesn't back up what Perturabo believes, it could have been handled so much better. Its almost on the level of the AL and the Cabal... almost...


I dunno about a Pertulant child, more accuratly Pertuabo is reacting to deep seated personal issues and insecurities, perhaps as a result seeing things that aren't there and, yes, refusing to take responsiability for his actions. That's not "bad writing" that's called "writing a character with character flaws" each of the traitor primarchs are horriably flawed individuals. That's the point, they're super human in so many areas, but in other areas have huuge flaws. flaws that chaos exploited.

So you say "bad writing" I say "just the oppisite" if the triator primarchs where all flawless people who understood everything etc. well.. 1 the Horus Heresy likely wouldn't have happened. 2: the HH novels would have read like a Matt Ward codex.
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno about a Pertulant child, more accuratly Pertuabo is reacting to deep seated personal issues and insecurities, perhaps as a result seeing things that aren't there and, yes, refusing to take responsiability for his actions. That's not "bad writing" that's called "writing a character with character flaws" each of the traitor primarchs are horriably flawed individuals. That's the point, they're super human in so many areas, but in other areas have huuge flaws. flaws that chaos exploited.

So you say "bad writing" I say "just the oppisite" if the triator primarchs where all flawless people who understood everything etc. well.. 1 the Horus Heresy likely wouldn't have happened. 2: the HH novels would have read like a Matt Ward codex.

I agree that they should be flawed, but the issue is in presentation of how they are flawed. As in the whole IW Legion just seems to go with it. The other IW that stay loyal don't even do so because they feel Perturabo was wrong, but more because they can't see themselves betraying the Emperor. I feel like the IW story is as big as the ocean and written as deep as a puddle, its just feels off when they try and force two conflicting parts of the lore together like that. The IW more so than other Legions just seem to go along in Perturabo's delusions (which made more sense in the older fluff of them being forced to do these things by the Emperor). I think some changes in writing while keeping the troubled Perturabo would have gone a long way in explaining how the Legion turned.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 10:50:49


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.

Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.

Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer just like his adoptive father did... Perturabo really hated that. All Perturabo really wanted to do was sit in a workshop somewhere and invent and build things, but the Emperor essentially forcefully conscripted him and then gave him the worst of the worst jobs over and over because none of the other Primarchs would take them. His brothers then proceeded to crap on him constantly for being an unsociable feth head, and swoop in at the last minute and steal all the glory of the victories that the IW did most of the work for.

It makes perfect sense to me why he turned, and honestly, IMO his is the most sympathetic story second only to Magnus and Angron.


{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}

90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
If you're that intelligent then why are you arguing on dakka with giant text walls?????


I never claimed I was intelligent, captain picard said I wasn't, I merely said the truth that I'm more intelligent than him. Why do you get butthurt when you are told that you are wrong on a point, its just so petty.

If you look up you'll see the point flying over your head.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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So is Vengeful Spirit worth a read? I'm always a sucker for stories with the big E himself in them.

 
   
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godking wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I have, its still not very convincing. Perturabo could have just refused the role he felt his legion was forced into, as other Primarchs had done. Yet he accepted his 'role' over and over and revelled in pitying and loathing himself. Nobody forced him down his path that 'made' him turn traitor, yet he stays allied with the the traitor legions after what happens in the book? Perturabo is like a loyal dog that secretely resents an imaginary master even though its friends beat it, the only convincing bit is the IF rivalry.

Once he committed the atrocity on Olympia, there was no way he could turn back. It was either turn traitor or die, either by his own hand, or be executed by the Emperor for war crimes.

Horus offered him a way out. Perturabo was basically offered an official pardon from Horus in exchange for his support against the Emperor. The same Emperor in Perturabo's mind who perverted his talents toward the worst kind of warfare, and used him as a glorified battle supercomputer just like his adoptive father did... Perturabo really hated that. All Perturabo really wanted to do was sit in a workshop somewhere and invent and build things, but the Emperor essentially forcefully conscripted him and then gave him the worst of the worst jobs over and over because none of the other Primarchs would take them. His brothers then proceeded to crap on him constantly for being an unsociable feth head, and swoop in at the last minute and steal all the glory of the victories that the IW did most of the work for.

It makes perfect sense to me why he turned, and honestly, IMO his is the most sympathetic story second only to Magnus and Angron.


{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}

90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.


exactly sums it up so well.

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godking wrote:
{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}

Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.

godking wrote:
90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.

That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.

"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"

I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.

We are getting off-topic at this point though....

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 16:11:07


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:
I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.

Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.

Not only that, his quotes are only marginally related to the subject at hand and he says that they prove things they actually really don't prove at all.

I'm all for understanding that the lore has different interpretations for different people, but Delvarus seems to believe some pretty blatantly incorrect things about the lore (like saying Horus was warmaster for "ages" before the HH) and still clings to these views even if proven wrong.

Most of the things he says are valid "interpretations" (from my perspective), but if you disagree with him or present him with an alternate opinion he seems to take it as a personal attack and screams at you that your totally subjective interpretation is wrong.


You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.

"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.

Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."

When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.

Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.

Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."

that's your quotes from the wisest Primarch thread page 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone actually quote where I use the lore or quotes where It doesn't actually prove my point, all of you on you go, go look and post it here. Everyone of you I have proven wrong once or twice and you are all just butthurt and joining in the butthurt gang. You all do the same, all of you say I'm wrong and then when I quote something that shows I'm not you's all get so butthurt and you gang to gether for support because it makes you feel better about being shown that you are wrong, All I care about is when a couple of you lie, not gonna name names but you know who you are. I literally couldn't care if I'm wrong, again its just sad. And if you are actually going to bring up something without quoting, I will go fishing for like I did with wizard.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 17:53:40


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
godking wrote:
{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}

Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.

godking wrote:
90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.

That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.

"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"

I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.

We are getting off-topic at this point though....
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?

And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?

Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.

Its obvious why the emperor chose Dorn over Perturabo to build his palace,

Dorn might be a slightly lesser siegemaster but has none of the hangups that Perturabo has.

If i had to work on a project and had the choice between a guy like Perturabo or a guy like Dorn to work with i would chose Dorn.

Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.



   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





We still do'nt know the particulars but. spoilers for Wolfsbane under the cut.

Spoiler:

Russ is scared when he learns his real name. And what the emperor originally intented for him.


Names have power in 40K, especially ADB and Dan Abnett like using that. But it's also appeared in codices and the like. GK especially.

Primachs aren't "normal" There have been several hints throughout both the HH and old lore that they are almost as much psychic construct as they are Emperor's genetic creation. I can't remember wich book but there is one that states outright E can't create more primarchs. He needed his deal with Chaos for that.

Something important to bear in mind for the Chaos gods. Is that they don't simply want to win but in as many "moves" as possible. A very recurrent theme with Chaos is it's self defeating nature. Chaos sabotages itself. The serpent swallowing its own tail etc..

Also do'nt be too hostile to Delvarus. He's mostly right.

The Emperor went to Molech twice. Once before the great crusade and once more during.

Also read Vengefull spirit and the Magnus novella back to back and realise:

Spoiler:
The emperor is the stormlord in both. Boy is he one hell of a villain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last thing: The emperor clearly didn't read Frankenstein or forgot the book has 2 monsters.

He didn't take proper care of his primarchs and it bit him in the ass hard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 19:41:18





 
   
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 Earth127 wrote:
We still do'nt know the particulars but. spoilers for Wolfsbane under the cut.

Spoiler:

Russ is scared when he learns his real name. And what the emperor originally intented for him.


Names have power in 40K, especially ADB and Dan Abnett like using that. But it's also appeared in codices and the like. GK especially.

Primachs aren't "normal" There have been several hints throughout both the HH and old lore that they are almost as much psychic construct as they are Emperor's genetic creation. I can't remember wich book but there is one that states outright E can't create more primarchs. He needed his deal with Chaos for that.

Something important to bear in mind for the Chaos gods. Is that they don't simply want to win but in as many "moves" as possible. A very recurrent theme with Chaos is it's self defeating nature. Chaos sabotages itself. The serpent swallowing its own tail etc..

Also do'nt be too hostile to Delvarus. He's mostly right.

The Emperor went to Molech twice. Once before the great crusade and once more during.

Also read Vengefull spirit and the Magnus novella back to back and realise:

Spoiler:
The emperor is the stormlord in both. Boy is he one hell of a villain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last thing: The emperor clearly didn't read Frankenstein or forgot the book has 2 monsters.

He didn't take proper care of his primarchs and it bit him in the ass hard.


Again if he's right show me the quotes.
   
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godking wrote:
w1zard wrote:
godking wrote:
{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}

Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.

godking wrote:
90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.

That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.

"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"

I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.

We are getting off-topic at this point though....
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?

And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?

Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.

Its obvious why the emperor chose Dorn over Perturabo to build his palace,

Dorn might be a slightly lesser siegemaster but has none of the hangups that Perturabo has.

If i had to work on a project and had the choice between a guy like Perturabo or a guy like Dorn to work with i would chose Dorn.

Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.





Dorn only started building defences in the palace when the HH started, so he didn't chose Dorn of Perty. Out of all the traitor Primarch Perty was the only one that still cared for humanity and even cared for all the other loyalist Astartes.

‘I have this hour spoken to the Imperial Regent, Malcador the Sigillite, via machine-call vox,’ said
the primarch. ‘It was my affirmation to him that, despite the dedication you have shown to the
Emperor in braving the gauntlet to carry forth your warning, the Council of Terra cannot be fully
certain where the loyalties of such men ultimately lie.’ There was a hard edge to Dorn’s voice, but for
the first time Garro sensed the tension in him. It was not easy for the primarch to utter such words to
fellow Astartes. ‘My orders were to return to Terra to bulwark the planet’s defences and it seems that
I may have to do that in order to resist my own brothers.’ He glanced at Garro. ‘I will attend the
Imperial Palace and brief the Emperor on this grave news. You, the refugees from the Vengeful Spirit
and all the Astartes from the Eisenstein, will remain in secure holding at the Somnus Citadel on Luna
until our master decides what your fate will be.’" - flight of the eisenstein.


Perty letting the Iron Hands escape:
"There will be some,’said Forrix, moving to the surveyor station and linking it to the launch decks. ‘A few will have reached saviour pods, but some are still out in the void aboard Stormbirds and torpedoes. There’re bound to be more left aboard the wreck too. I’m launching a full spread of rescue craft.’ Perturabo watched as the Trident began re-establishing control throughout the Iron Blood, establishing a contravallation of picket ships and organising the rescue effort for the crew of the Andronicus. Thousands had died in its sudden, merciless demise, but Forrix could yet save hundreds with his unmatched logistical nous. He watched the Iron Hands vessel twist on its axis, more agile than anything that ugly had a right to be. Still bleeding a tail of ignited plasma and mag-locked debris, the Sisypheum arced down towards a knot of storm clouds that looked to offer no easy way through. ‘My lord,’said Kroeger, his fingertips hovering over fire control. ‘Do we shoot now?’ ‘No,’said Perturabo. ‘Leave them. They’ve earned that much." - angel exterminatus

Perty not hating the Legions:

"Unlike many of his brothers, Perturabo did not hate the Legions that had remained true to the Emperor. They were tools with which their father had carved out his empire, warriors as abused as Perturabo’s sons, but too stubborn or too blind to see it. The Iron Hands were an honourable Legion, but they had changed in the centuries since Perturabo and his brother primarchs had each made that climb to the crenellated peak of the Astartes Tower to swear their oaths of moment" - angel exterminatus.

Dorn does have bad hang ups, he was constantly going into rages and had a very short temper.

He didn't work on his personality because he was very insular, he spent time creating little clock work warhound models and was obsessed with the minutia of details in perfecting something. He was still a deep thinker.

I respect Perturabo a lot.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 20:12:34


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I mean it really just boils down to a few things:

The Emperor way before the Crusade started built a starship to fly to Molech. We don’t know how He knew about this place but He went anyway.

He went into The Realm of Chaos via the door way.

A while later He came out and was rather exhausted needing help to climb the stairs but He was “Too Powerful, raw and damaged”. His face was gaunt and His glamours He normally hides His true appearance were not working.

He then managed to get back to Terra. Without a starship. So clearly He was indeed much more powerful on the return journey. It’s also quoted as saying He stole the powers from the Realm of Chaos and that it would have been suicide for Him to return to the gate in order to close it due to the proximity of Chaos.

I am going to presume that He is at this point the “supernova” of psychic light that we all know and love. Presumably once He returns to Terra He then uses this power and knowledge to create the Primarchs.
   
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Mellow wrote:
I mean it really just boils down to a few things:

The Emperor way before the Crusade started built a starship to fly to Molech. We don’t know how He knew about this place but He went anyway.

He went into The Realm of Chaos via the door way.

A while later He came out and was rather exhausted needing help to climb the stairs but He was “Too Powerful, raw and damaged”. His face was gaunt and His glamours He normally hides His true appearance were not working.

He then managed to get back to Terra. Without a starship. So clearly He was indeed much more powerful on the return journey. It’s also quoted as saying He stole the powers from the Realm of Chaos and that it would have been suicide for Him to return to the gate in order to close it due to the proximity of Chaos.

I am going to presume that He is at this point the “supernova” of psychic light that we all know and love. Presumably once He returns to Terra He then uses this power and knowledge to create the Primarchs.


Where did you read all this, him being exhausted and needing help to climb the stairs not using his glamour and how he was powerful of the return journey? none of this is in the vengeful spirit novel and to my knowledge that's the only piece of lore on the actual trip the Emperor made to the obsidian gate during the dark age of technology, Erebus mentioned it as well but only that the Emperor made a bargain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 20:08:52


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I got that all including direct quotes from a Novel called “Vengeful Spirit” which is sitting in my iBooks app.
   
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Mellow wrote:
I got that all including direct quotes from a Novel called “Vengeful Spirit” which is sitting in my iBooks app.


Can you post them?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Well the spaceship quote is in chapter 2

How The Emperor was when He came out the Chaos gate in in chapter 22
   
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Mellow wrote:
Well the spaceship quote is in chapter 2

How The Emperor was when He came out the Chaos gate in in chapter 22


This is the only bit in Chapter 22 that says anything about the Emperors travels:

Alivia led the Ultramarines and her five soldiers ever downwards along a twisting series of switchback
stairs beneath the Sanctuary. The walls were glassy and smooth, cut down through the geomantic roots of
Mount Torger by the colossal power of the galaxy’s most singular mind.
No light shone this deep, and only the Ultramarines suit lights pierced the darkness. If felt like nobody
came here precisely because nobody ever came here.
‘How much deeper is this gate, mamzel?’ asked Castor Alcade. The smell of plasmic fire still clung to
his armour, and his breath had the hot flavour of burned stone to it.
‘It’s not far,’ she said, though distance would become a somewhat subjective quantity the deeper they
went.
‘And how is it that you know of it?’
Alivia struggled to think of a way to answer that without sounding like a lunatic.
‘I came here a very long time ago,’ she said.
‘You’re being evasive,’ said Alcade.
‘Yes.’
‘So why should I put my trust you?’
‘You already have, legate,’ said Alivia, turning and giving him her most winning smile. ‘You wouldn’t
be here if you hadn’t.’
She’d told them of what lay beneath the Sanctuary, a gate closed in ages past by the Emperor and which
Horus planned to open. She told them that beyond the gate lay a source of monstrously dangerous power,
and thankfully that was enough for them.
She’d not relished the prospect of trying to exert her empathic influences over the legionaries of the XIII
Legion, but as things turned out there hadn’t been any need to apply pressure to the legate’s psyche.
It wasn’t hard to see why.
She’d offered him a last lifeline to achieve something worthwhile, and he’d seized it with both hands.
‘Thirty men facing the might of two Legions sounds grand in the honour rolls,’ he’d said after she’d told
him what she wanted of him and his men. ‘But last stands are just the sorts of theoreticals we’ve trained
our entire lives to avoid.’
‘This isn’t a fight we’ll walk away from either,’ she’d warned.
‘Better to fight for something than die for nothing.’
He’d said it with such a straight face too. She hadn’t the heart to tell him that sentiments like that were
what had kept men fighting one another for millennia.
They’d found the citadel filled with refugees. Most had ignored them, but some begged for protection
until Didacus Theron fired a warning shot over their heads.
The Sanctuary and its secret levels, the really interesting levels that not even the Sacristans or
Mechanicum knew about, were beneath the deserted Vault Transcendent. Alivia took every confounding
turn through the catacombs and located every hidden door as though she’d walked here only yesterday.
The last time Alivia had climbed these particular steps, her legs were like rubber and fear sweat coated
her back like a layer of frost. She’d helped him come back to the world; her arm around his waist, his
across her shoulder. She’d tried to keep his thoughts – normally so impenetrable – from reaching into her,
but he was too powerful, too raw and too damaged from what lay beyond the gate to keep everything
inside.
She’d seen things she wished she hadn’t. Futures she’d seen in her nightmares ever since or inked in the
pages of a forgotten storybook. Abominable things that were now intruding on the waking world, invited
in by those who hadn’t the faintest clue of what a terrible mistake they were making.
‘Do these steps ever bloody end?’ asked Theron.
‘They do, but it’ll seem like they won’t,’ answered Alivia. ‘It’s kind of a side effect of being so close
to a scar in the space-time fabric of the world. Or part of the gate’s defence mechanisms, I forget which.
It’s amazing how many people just give up, thinking they’re getting nowhere.’
‘I’ve been mapping our route,’ said a Techmarine called Kyro with a superior tone that suggested he
was equal to anything this place could throw at him.
‘You haven’t,’ said Alivia, tapping a finger to the side of her head. ‘Trust me.’
Kyro flipped up a portion of his gauntlet and a rotating holographic appeared. A three-dimensional
mapping tool. Right away, Kyro frowned in consternation as multiple routes and divergent pathways that
didn’t exist filled the grainy image.
‘Told you,’ said Alivia.
‘But do they ever end?’ asked Alcade.
Alivia didn’t answer, but stepped out onto a wide hallway that she knew every one of the Ultramarines
would swear hadn’t been there moments ago. Like everything else here it had a smooth, volcanic quality,
but light shone here, glittering within the rock like moonlight on the surface of an ocean.
Wide enough for six legionaries to walk comfortably abreast, the hallway was long and opened into a
rough-hewn chamber of chiselled umber brick. The Emperor never told her how this chamber had come to
be or how He’d known of it, save that it had been here before geological forces of an earlier epoch raised
the mountain above.
Ancient hands had cut the stone bricks here, but Alivia never liked looking too closely at the
proportions of the blocks or their subtly wrong arrangement. It always left her strangely unsettled and
feeling that those hands had not belonged to any species known by the galaxy’s current inhabitants.
The Ultramarines spread out, muscle memory and ingrained practical pushing them into a workable
defensive pattern. Alivia’s human allies, Valance especially, kept close to her like a bodyguard.
‘Is that it?’ asked Alcade, unable to keep the disappointment from his voice. ‘This is the Hellgate you
spoke of?’
‘That’s it,’ agreed Alivia with a smirk. ‘What did you expect? The Eternity Gate?’
She’d told them something of what lay beyond the gate, but Alivia had to agree it didn’t exactly look
like the most secure means of keeping something so hideously dangerous out. Irregular chunks of dark
stone veined with white formed a tall archway in the darker red of the mountain’s foundations.
The space between the arch was mirror-smooth black stone, like a slab of obsidian cut from a perfectly
flat lava bed. Nothing within the chamber was reflected in its surface.
‘We expected something that looked like it would take more than a rock drill or a demo charge to
breach,’ said Kyro.
‘Trust me,’ said Alivia. ‘There’s nothing you or the Mechanicum could bring that would get that open.’
‘So how does Horus plan to open it?’
‘He’s blood of the Emperor’s blood,’ she said. ‘That’ll be enough unless I can seal it.’
‘You said the Emperor sealed it,’ said Theron.
‘No, I said He closed it,’ said Alivia. ‘That’s not same thing.’
Alcade looked at her strangely, as though now seeing something of the truth of what she was.
‘And how is it you know how to seal it?’ he asked.
‘He showed me how.’
Kyro tapped the black wall with one of his servo-arms. It made no sound whatsoever. At least in this
world. ‘If what’s beyond here is so terrible, why didn’t the Emperor seal it Himself?’
‘Because He couldn’t, not then, maybe not ever,’ said Alivia, remembering the gaunt, aged face she’d
seen beyond the glamours. He’d been gone no more than a heartbeat to her, but she saw centuries carved
into the face she’d watched go into the gate.
‘The Emperor couldn’t seal it, but you can?’ said Kyro. ‘You’ll forgive me, Mamzel Sureka, if I find
that hard to believe.’
‘I don’t give a damn what you find hard to believe,’ snapped Alivia. ‘There are things a god can do and
things He can’t. That’s why sometimes they need mortals to do their dirty work. The Emperor left armies
to guard against obvious intruders, but He needed someone to keep out the lone madmen, the seekers of
dark knowledge or anyone who accidentally stumbled on the truth. Since I’ve been on Molech, I’ve killed
one hundred and thirteen people who’ve been drawn here by the whispered poisons that seep from
beyond this gate. So don’t you dare doubt what I can do!’
She took a calming breath and shrugged off her coat, tucking the loaded Ferlach serpenta into the
waistband of her fatigues. She felt foolish for losing her temper, but every emotion was heightened in this
place.
‘How old are you, Mamzel Sureka?’ asked Alcade.
‘What’s that got to do with anything?’ said Alivia, though she knew exactly where he was going with
this.
‘The Emperor was last on Molech over a century ago,’ said Alcade. ‘And even with juvenat treatments,
you’re nowhere near old enough to have been at His side.’
Alivia laughed, a bitter, desperate sound. ‘You don’t know how old I am, Castor Alcade. And, right
now, I wish I didn’t either


In Chapter 2 the only mention of it is by Horus who wasn't there, the rest of chapter 2 is all Malcador and the Primarchs:

‘So you came to Dwell to see if you could fill the void in your memory?’ said Fulgrim.
‘After a fashion,’ agreed Horus, circling back to where he had begun his circuit of the cylinders. ‘Every
man and woman interred here over the millennia has become part of a shared consciousness, a world
memory containing everything each individual had learned, from the first great diaspora to the present
day.’
‘Impressive,’ agreed Mortarion.
‘Hardly,’ said Fulgrim. ‘We all have eidetic memories. What is there here of value I do not already
know?’
‘Do you remember all your battles, Fulgrim?’ asked Horus.
‘Of course. Every sword swing, every manoeuvre, every shot. Every kill.’
‘Squad names, warriors? Places, people?’
‘All of it,’ insisted Fulgrim.
‘Then tell me of Molech,’ said Horus. ‘Tell me what you remember of that compliance.’
Fulgrim opened his mouth to speak, but no words came out. His expression was that of a blank-faced
novitiate as he sought the answer to a drill sergeant’s rhetorical question.
‘I don’t understand,’ said Fulgrim. ‘I remember Molech, I do, its wilds and its high castles and its
Knights, but…’
His words trailed off, putting Aximand in the mind of a warrior suffering severe head trauma. ‘We were
both there, you and I, before the Third Legion had numbers to operate alone. And the Lion? Wait, was
Jaghatai there too?’
Horus nodded. ‘So the logs say,’ he said. ‘We four and the Emperor travelled to Molech. It complied,
of course. What planet would offer resistance to Legion forces led by the Emperor?’
‘An overwhelming force,’ said Mortarion. ‘Was heavy resistance expected?’
‘Far from it,’ said Horus. ‘Molech’s rulers were inveterate record keepers, and they remembered
Terra. Its people had weathered Old Night, and when the Emperor descended to the surface it was
inevitable they would accept compliance.’
‘We remained there for some months, did we not?’ asked Fulgrim.
Aximand glanced at Abaddon and saw the same look on the First Captain’s face he felt he wore. He too
remembered Molech, but like the primarchs was having difficulty in recalling specific details. Aximand
had almost certainly visited the planet’s surface, but found it hard to form a coherent picture of its
environs.
‘According to the Vengeful Spirit’s horologs, we were there for a hundred and eleven standard Terran
days, one hundred and nine local. After we left nearly a hundred regiments of Army, three Titanicus
cohorts and garrison detachments from two Legions were left in place.’
‘For a planet that embraced compliance?’ said Mortarion. ‘A waste of resources if ever I heard it.
What need did the Emperor have to fortify Molech with such strength?’
Horus snapped his fingers and said, ‘Exactly.’
‘I’m guessing you have an answer for that question,’ said Fulgrim. ‘Otherwise why summon us here?’
‘I have an answer of sorts,’ said Horus, tapping the cryo-cylinder containing Arthis Varfell. ‘A
specialty of this particular iterator was the early history of the Emperor, the wars of Unity and the various
myths and legends surrounding His assumption of Old Earth’s throne. The memories of Dwell are
untainted, and many of its earliest settlers were driven here by the raging tides of Old Night. What they
remember goes back a very long way, and Varfell assimilated it all.’
‘What do you mean?’ asked Fulgrim.
‘I mean that some of the oldest Dwellers came from Molech, and they remember the Emperor’s first
appearance on their world.’
‘First?’ said Fulgrim.
Mortarion gripped Silence tightly. ‘He had been there before? When?’
‘If I’m interpreting the dreams of the dead right, then our father first set foot on Molech many centuries,
or even millennia before the wars of Unity. He came in a starship that never returned to Earth, a starship I
believe now forms the heart of the Dawn Citadel.’
‘The Dawn Citadel… I remember that,’ said Fulgrim. ‘Yes, there was an ugly, cannibalised structure of
ship parts at the end of a mountain valley! The Lion built one of his sombre castles around it did he not?’
‘He did indeed,’ said Horus. ‘The Emperor needed a starship to reach Molech, but didn’t need it to get
back. Whatever He found there made Him into a god, or as near as makes no difference.’
‘And you think whatever that was is still there?’ said Fulgrim with heady anticipation. ‘Even after all
this time?’
‘Why else leave the planet so heavily defended?’ said Mortarion. ‘It’s the only explanation.’
Horus nodded. ‘Through Arthis Varfell, I learned a great deal of Molech’s early years, together with
what the four of us did there. Some of it I even remembered.’
‘The Emperor erased your memories of Molech?’ said Abaddon, forgetting himself for a moment.
‘Ezekyle!’ hissed Aximand.
Abaddon’s outrage eclipsed his decorum, his choler roused as he sought to vent his anger. Beyond him,
the stars were out, casting a glittering light over Tyjun. Stablights from patrolling aircraft swept the city.
Some close, some far away, but none came near the skeletal structure of the dome.
‘No, not erased,’ said Horus, overlooking his First Captain’s outburst. ‘Something so drastic would
quickly result in a form of cognitive dissonance that would draw attention to its very existence. This was
more a… manipulation, the lessening of some memories and the strengthening others to overshadow the
gaps.’
‘But to alter the memories of three entire Legions,’ breathed Fulgrim. ‘The power that would require…’
‘So, it’s to Molech then?’ said Mortarion.
‘Yes, brothers,’ said Horus, spreading his arms. ‘We are to follow in the footsteps of a god and become
gods ourselves.’
‘Our Legions stand ready,’ said Fulgrim, febrile anticipation making his body shimmer with corposant.
‘No, brother, I require only Mortarion’s Legion for this war-making,’ said Horus.
‘Then why summon me at all?’ snapped Fulgrim. ‘Why insult my warriors by excluding them from your
designs?’
‘Because it’s not your Legion I need, it’s you,’ said Horus, spearing to the heart of Fulgrim’s vanity.
‘My Phoenician brother, I need you most of all.’
Aximand’s ocular filters dimmed as a stablight swept through the buckled struts of the dome. Stark
shadows bowed and twisted.
Everyone looked up.
The dark outline of an aircraft rose up beyond the dome, its engines bellowing with downdraft. A
blizzard of broken glass took to the air. Glittering reflections dazzled like snow.
‘Who the hell’s flying so close?’ said Abaddon, shielding his eyes from the blinding glare. More noise,
fresh stablights from the other side of the dome.
Another two aircraft.
Fire Raptors. Horde killers that had made their name at Ullanor. Coated in non-reflective black.
Hovering, circling the dome. Icons on their glacis shone proudly after months of being obscured.
Silver gauntlets on a black field.
‘It’s Meduson!’ shouted Aximand. ‘It’s Shadrak bloody Meduson!’
Three centreline Avenger cannons roared in unison. Braying quad guns on waist turrets followed an
instant later.
And the Dome of Revivification vanished in a sheeting inferno of orange flame

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 20:19:45


 
   
 
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