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I know very little about gravity. I’m (was) a biologist not a Physicist. But do know if we are looking at the accounts in this book we should be using literary and historical techniques to judge them. I dont think any of them stand up to that scrutiny and I think that was deliberate by the other. Backed up by the fact he says he has actualaly done that. Which make this whole conversation a hypothetical one, which is fine but it means dev you have to have a bit of wriggle room. U are the one here using black and white. The rest of us are talking in shades of grey. How about it?

Andykp wrote:
I know very little about gravity. I’m (was) a biologist not a Physicist. But do know if we are looking at the accounts in this book we should be using literary and historical techniques to judge them. I dont think any of them stand up to that scrutiny and I think that was deliberate by the other. Backed up by the fact he says he has actualaly done that. Which make this whole conversation a hypothetical one, which is fine but it means dev you have to have a bit of wriggle room. U are the one here using black and white. The rest of us are talking in shades of grey. How about it?

You can talk about shades of grey, no problem with that but to say a fact isn't a fact because it could change in the future doesn't really mean anything. Plus you's basically agree with me that the Emperor went to the house of eyes, all we argue about is what he got there, Sureka knows, that's enough for me.

Sureka THINKS she knows. Thats all we caution you about taking proables as "absolute truths"

BrianDavion wrote:
Sureka THINKS she knows. Thats all we caution you about taking proables as "absolute truths"

Yes. She wasn’t actually there stood beside him the whole time.

BrianDavion wrote:
Sureka THINKS she knows. Thats all we caution you about taking proables as "absolute truths"

If she knew Horus got powers without being there, then why would she come to that conclusion, if she didn't already know... Same with Horus, the Emperor told him of Molech and getting powers there. Plus you thinking that 'she thinks' means that you think; you know, that she doesn't know.

Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.

She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.

Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.

Mellow wrote:
Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.

She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.

Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.

She wasn't there when he came out, she was dead. She didn't feel anything.

"Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each
movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her.
She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most.
She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side.
A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t
about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight.
Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was
magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her
and every person she’d abandoned.
And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were
soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face
and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest.
Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he
couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near
to those whose power he’d stolen.
Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she
could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and
she couldn’t bloody concentrate."

I mean there is so much evidence in the book that she knew.

This thread as well as the other similar thread going on right now have proven to be quite difficult to follow for various reasons but the topic is interesting enough for me to weigh in a little. I've not read the books being mentioned but from the quotes that have been posted I really see very little that allows us to view things completely clearly on the Emperor, his thoughts and intentions, his powers and his Faustian bargain. Many of the quotes shown, in my mind, haven't been saying exactly what the people quoting them have surmised and seem to be purposefully vague in their descriptions or are representative of a particular character's feelings and not the objective truth, despite being put forward by the narrator. Perhaps I'm bias because I like the fiction of this setting to be vague and not perfectly defined.

One very interesting quote I've read in this topic or the other was saying that the Emperor reneged on his side of the bargain and as a result knowledge of Chaos was hidden from humanity. Perhaps that was the only price he should have paid - being given the power and means to lead humanity through genecraft and sorcery but at the cost of 'enlightening' mankind to the true nature of Chaos. If the gods were to agree to such a bargain they surely thought it would benefit them hugely, maybe that it would effectively damn all of mankind and strengthen the gods. The Emperor obviously had other ideas and betrayed the gods after the fact. I can only imagine that he will have some terrible price to pay for it eventually unless Chaos can be stopped completely, the warp and realspace are separated permanently or humanity takes over the webway. His soul/warp presence might be forfeit when he dies, which at this point with the power that must have manifested in the warp due to uncounted humans believing in the divinity of the Emperor would be a considerable boon to Chaos. The scattering of the Primarchs could have been part of the deal or it could have been a punishment enacted on the Emperor for his deceit.

This is all speculation, all I know is that I don't ever want to know the truth about any of it

xlDuke wrote:
This thread as well as the other similar thread going on right now have proven to be quite difficult to follow for various reasons but the topic is interesting enough for me to weigh in a little. I've not read the books being mentioned but from the quotes that have been posted I really see very little that allows us to view things completely clearly on the Emperor, his thoughts and intentions, his powers and his Faustian bargain. Many of the quotes shown, in my mind, haven't been saying exactly what the people quoting them have surmised and seem to be purposefully vague in their descriptions or are representative of a particular character's feelings and not the objective truth, despite being put forward by the narrator. Perhaps I'm bias because I like the fiction of this setting to be vague and not perfectly defined.

One very interesting quote I've read in this topic or the other was saying that the Emperor reneged on his side of the bargain and as a result knowledge of Chaos was hidden from humanity. Perhaps that was the only price he should have paid - being given the power and means to lead humanity through genecraft and sorcery but at the cost of 'enlightening' mankind to the true nature of Chaos. If the gods were to agree to such a bargain they surely thought it would benefit them hugely, maybe that it would effectively damn all of mankind and strengthen the gods. The Emperor obviously had other ideas and betrayed the gods after the fact. I can only imagine that he will have some terrible price to pay for it eventually unless Chaos can be stopped completely, the warp and realspace are separated permanently or humanity takes over the webway. His soul/warp presence might be forfeit when he dies, which at this point with the power that must have manifested in the warp due to uncounted humans believing in the divinity of the Emperor would be a considerable boon to Chaos. The scattering of the Primarchs could have been part of the deal or it could have been a punishment enacted on the Emperor for his deceit.

This is all speculation, all I know is that I don't ever want to know the truth about any of it

The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.

Duke summed it up very well. And I can assure dev that I in no way hero worship the emperor and want him to be great. I like that there a question marks about him and that he is as flawed as everyone else in the setting. It’s what makes 40k so much fun. There are no good guys.

Dev, you can interpret things in the clear cut fact or non fact way you do, and the rest of us will interpret the texts and story as a whole in our own way. Neither is right nor wrong. I personally have heard or read nothing that changes my opinion on what has happened or who’s accounts to believe.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.

Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me willing to question things put forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.

As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.

xlDuke wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.

Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.

As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.

"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."

yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.

"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"

exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.

She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.

Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.

She wasn't there when he came out, she was dead. She didn't feel anything.

"Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each
movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her.
She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most.
She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side.
A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t
about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight.
Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was
magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her
and every person she’d abandoned.
And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were
soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face
and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest.
Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he
couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near
to those whose power he’d stolen.
Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she
could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and
she couldn’t bloody concentrate."

I mean there is so much evidence in the book that she knew.

I put a capital on Him. Meaning she was with Him when He came out. I wasn’t referring to Horus.

Mellow wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
Well, she was there when He came out and could feel the raw power coming off Him.

She wasn’t there and whilst Horus was certainly radiant he was ultimately pumped on psychic steroids under the IMPRESSION that he “won” that power “fairly”.

Of course Horus probably just got given it because the Gods hate The Emperor and they wanted someone to get rid of him. There’s always a price with power though especially when Horus was deluded into thinking he was the master of Chaos.

She wasn't there when he came out, she was dead. She didn't feel anything.

"Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each
movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her.
She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most.
She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side.
A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t
about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight.
Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was
magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her
and every person she’d abandoned.
And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were
soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face
and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest.
Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he
couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near
to those whose power he’d stolen.
Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she
could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and
she couldn’t bloody concentrate."

I mean there is so much evidence in the book that she knew.

I put a capital on Him. Meaning she was with Him when He came out. I wasn’t referring to Horus.

Sure.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.

Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.

As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.

"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."

yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.

"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"

exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.

No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.

Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.

As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.

"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."

yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.

"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"

exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.

No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)

He did get power from the Gods. But I never said he bargained. There are two sources, one saying he made a bargain the other saying he took the powers by force. By the way the house of eyes isn't just the warp, its a direct route to the chaos gods.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The quotes have absolutely nothing to do with feelings, the character is telling her memories. The quotes are matter of fact, not to be interpreted, not from the writers point of view anyways, otherwise he'd make it more implicit. Since it has to do with the Emperor, people suspend their own normal criteria of proof. Again No one said that John Grammaticus' testimony of meeting the cabal etc. is just feelings etc. as there is no reason at all to distrust his story, just as there is no reason whatsoever to distrust Alivia Sureka's story. Its the exact same thing, but everyone is not willing to trust Alivia Sureka's testimony purely on the grounds that 'its' the Emperor.' Again how could Alivia ever know about what the Emperor got at Molech, if it wasn't for the Emperor telling her or due to her emphatic abilities. Plus there is a vested interest, the Emperor making a deal with chaos to get powers makes him less awesome, so people really don't want that to be true, because I honestly can't see why you wouldn't think the Emperor did get powers there if you've read the book.

Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations. While she states the Emperor's guard was down and he was readable that doesn't mean she knows everything that he went through or precisely what he gained from the gods, even if she thinks she knows. She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is, which means that as the reader we can't trust that she knows beyond doubt that Horus gained exactly the same powers. We can certainly take a lot from her testimony, however. I must admit, as I said before, that I do want the lore to be vague and that makes me.willing to question things out forward as fact. It's apparent that the Emperor gained power from whatever happened on Molech and I'm not arguing otherwise.

As for John Grammaticus and the Cabal, I don't necessarily distrust his testimony or the narrator (but it's been a while since I read it and can't remember it perfectly) but I do distrust the Cabal and what they would tell someone outside their order. I don't mind applying different convictions to different situations.

"Memories can be flawed or imperfect and so can the information people take from events even as they are happening. First-hand witnesses are not reliable beyond doubt, particularly in hugely stressful situations."

yeah this is related to details, you might forget a robber had a mask when he robs a bank, you aren't going to forget that you were witnessing a bank robbery.

"She knows he's now much more powerful than he was before but she doesn't state exactly what the nature of that power is"

exactly, that's all I've claimed, all I claimed was that the Emperor went to Molech and got power.

No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)

He did get power from the Gods. But I never said he bargained. There are two sources, one saying he made a bargain the other saying he took the powers by force. By the way the house of eyes isn't just the warp, its a direct route to the chaos gods.

potato Potatoh.

BrianDavion wrote:
No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)

Exactly!

We know the Emperor got a big power-up on Molech. Chaos claim he made some sort of deal and welched on it but they are not exactly the most trustworthy source.

I want to know what the Emperor thought he was doing and how he played it. "Master of Mankind" was a big missed opportunity IMHO in that it could have given us some baldy needed insight into the Emperor's plan and thoughts but instead they chickened out. ADB stated that he didn't want to write a book filled with the Emperor's justifications but I think he went too far in the opposite direction by not providing any.

There are far too many sections in the HH that make the Emperor come across as a massive idiot. A few carefully constructed paragraphs giving some insight into his thoughts and memories could have provided a much needed balance to the fluff. Currently it is not surprising so many Primarchs turned to Chaos given the way the Emperor behaved. I am actually more surprised at how many of them stayed loyal in spite of his behaviour.

I bet at the end of the last book, the emperor wakes up and Horus is in the shower and it was all a dream! (Only those of an age will get the reference I think).

 Karhedron wrote:

I want to know what the Emperor thought he was doing and how he played it. "Master of Mankind" was a big missed opportunity IMHO in that it could have given us some baldy needed insight into the Emperor's plan and thoughts but instead they chickened out. ADB stated that he didn't want to write a book filled with the Emperor's justifications but I think he went too far in the opposite direction by not providing any.

There are far too many sections in the HH that make the Emperor come across as a massive idiot. A few carefully constructed paragraphs giving some insight into his thoughts and memories could have provided a much needed balance to the fluff. Currently it is not surprising so many Primarchs turned to Chaos given the way the Emperor behaved. I am actually more surprised at how many of them stayed loyal in spite of his behaviour.

I think MoM already has so many reveals and justifications it would be easy to use that book to 'solve' the whole Heresy, which would be disappointing.

The big thing I got from MoM was the sense of urgency, of the Emperor having a plan that Chaos had found a way to screw up, and that he was now trying to push through in a way more limited time frame. That and the realisation that he doesn't consider the Primarchs his 'sons' (and, it seems, has had to do a ton of legwork with the earlier discoveries to get them on-side) explains a lot of his actions.

I posted this way back in the thread, but I think the Emperor's actual, ideal plan was:

- cM25, realises that humanity is going all Psychic, that this means it will likely get eaten by Chaos, and that he might have to actually reveal himself and DO something to fix this. (see: The Sigillite)
- Goes to Molech and does a 'deal' with Chaos, or steals power, or something, I dunno what - but it either pisses off the Chaos gods right then or pisses them off later.
- WARP STORMS
- Just as the Warp Storms start to dissipate, he puts the PLAN into action, which is:

1. Conquer Terra with Thunder Legions (adapted specifically for that war)
2. Make Primarchs with his fancy stolen power, use Primarchs to create Legions
3. As soon as the Warp Storms recede, send out your serious, totally loyal Primarchs leading their Legions to conquer the galaxy double quick. Imagine the Primarchs to be WAY more like the Custodes, having been raised in the Palace like them - different, but under no illusions that they are weapons built by the Emperor (not 'sons', as per MoM). This new Imperium is kinda totalitarian, but only in a few ways - mainly that nobody should worship anything and that psykers should be sent to Terra. This is an attempt to starve Chaos and deny them the human race, which might well be a betrayal of the Molech thing. So, it needs to be done SUPER FAST in the confusion after the Fall of the Eldar - before Chaos realise what's going on.
4. In the meantime, the Emperor builds the connection to the webway, removing humanity from the reliance on warp travel.
5. At the end of all this, humanity is the only species still surviving in the galaxy, and doesn't worship Chaos or use the warp, so the power of Chaos is much reduced. Humanity can slowly continue to evolve into a psychic race in relative stability. There's still the possibility that the surviving Primarchs and Legions have an 'engineered' civil war (see: First Lord of the Imperium) to get rid of them but maybe that's already been taken care of because Webway Wars!, or maybe they do other stuff. Who knows?

The biggest fuckup in all this is Chaos scattering the Primarchs, which means everything is WAY behind schedule, but also they they all have massively different moral views and think of him as some sort of 'father figure'. The problem isn't that the Emperor is a dick to Lorgar. It's that Lorgar got raised with a set of beliefs totally at odds with what the Imperium needs, and the Emperor (at that point) doesn't have time to spend years carefully re-integrating him when he needs his Legions out there conquering - If he slows down the plan falls apart.

The tragedy is that Chaos only did the very first step (scattering the Primarchs) - the real reason the plan collapses is because the Primarchs end up becoming too human as a result of that, and it's their humanity that screws up the Emperor's (very ordered) plan to save the species!

Anyway, that's what I reckon. The big outstanding question is still 'What did the Emperor do at Molech?'. And, if he got the power to create the Primarchs at Molech during the Dark Age of Technology, why did he bother with Thunder Warriors at all? Why wait 5000 years to create the Primarchs and the Legions??

Thank u. A very insightful and interesting summery. I think you’re spot on. I hadn’t considered what the promarchs would’ve been like had they been raised with the emperor. Good point that. They wouldn’t have the blatant daddy issues that they all do either.

Also the point about waiting to make the primarchs. Very true.

He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?

Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.

 Karhedron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
No you ALSO claim as undeniable FACT that the Emperor made a deal with Chaos for Power. THAT is what we're arguing about. For all we know the emperor came out more powerful because he went into the warp killed an unknown 5th chaos god and absorbed it's power. (.. that'd be a pretty awesome twist actually, and explain a lot of chaos' behavior, they're afraid of him)

Exactly!

We know the Emperor got a big power-up on Molech. Chaos claim he made some sort of deal and welched on it but they are not exactly the most trustworthy source.

I want to know what the Emperor thought he was doing and how he played it. "Master of Mankind" was a big missed opportunity IMHO in that it could have given us some baldy needed insight into the Emperor's plan and thoughts but instead they chickened out. ADB stated that he didn't want to write a book filled with the Emperor's justifications but I think he went too far in the opposite direction by not providing any.

There are far too many sections in the HH that make the Emperor come across as a massive idiot. A few carefully constructed paragraphs giving some insight into his thoughts and memories could have provided a much needed balance to the fluff. Currently it is not surprising so many Primarchs turned to Chaos given the way the Emperor behaved. I am actually more surprised at how many of them stayed loyal in spite of his behaviour.

Again Chaos being untrustworthy is completely irrelevant.


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Mellow wrote:
He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?

Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.

He did have the Custodes at that point. They all fought alongside the thunderwarriors during the unification wars.

Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

 Formosa wrote:
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.

Chaos being untrustworthy is never irrelevant. Sureka might have been the changeling for we really know! (Before you go off on on edev, I’m joking).


















Or am I.


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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.

I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.

Andykp wrote:
Chaos being untrustworthy is never irrelevant. Sureka might have been the changeling for we really know! (Before you go off on on edev, I’m joking).


It's irrelevant because most of the evidence in the book is not from chaos, as for Sureka being a changeling there is no evidence or reasoning to think that.

















Or am I.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.

I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
Chaos being untrustworthy is never irrelevant. Sureka might have been the changeling for we really know! (Before you go off on on edev, I’m joking).


















Or am I.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

Weren't there warp storms due to Slaanesh at that time though, maybe they went off course because of that.

I always thought they were just scattered. Just blind luck.

Its irrelevant because most of the evidence we have is not from chaos, in the book apart from the red angel, who didn't go into that much detail, he just showed Horus how to get to the obsidian gate and how to get to the pantheon, there is no evidence from chaos, as for Sureka being a changeling there is no evidence to suggest that.

 Formosa wrote:
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

I guess 'supposed to' could refer to either the Emperor's plans or Chaos' - maybe Chaos intended the Khan to land on Chemos and Slaanesh just fethed everything up...

Mellow wrote:He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?

Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.

Yeah, that certainly makes sense. The Thunder Warriors were pretty flawed. I could see a situation where he tries to do his own super soldiers & comes up with two results - the Thunder Warriors, who can be mass-produced but are crazy and unstable, and the Custodes, which are perfect, but too resource-heavy to produce. Thus, he decides he's gonna have to use the CHAOS KNOWLEDGE/POWER to create the Primarchs to get stable armies.

But that implies that the power he stole way back in the DAoT wasn't specifically for creating Primarchs. If it was specifically for that purpose, I still find it hard to believe he didn't even try and make them for 5000 years. Maybe it was the last resort. Or maybe the power he stole was actually the knowledge of the webway?

Andykp wrote:I hadn’t considered what the primarchs would’ve been like had they been raised with the emperor. Good point that. They wouldn’t have the blatant daddy issues that they all do either.

I really think this is the big takeaway from MoM - what the Custodes are actually like and the Emperor's relationship to them. They're the closest to 'colleagues' he has, the only ones he confides in, and they're raised from such a young age all they know is their Imperial upbringing. Yet they DEFINITELY don't think of the Emperor as their father. I don't think it's a big jump to assume that the Primarchs would have been way more like that if things had gone according to plan.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Also a shard of Magnus states in white scars that some of the primarchs didn’t end up on the planets they were supposed to, Khan to chemos and Fulgrim to chogoris for example, this puts doubt on the chaos gods “stealing” the primarchs away, that could have been the deal the emperor made, who knows.

I guess 'supposed to' could refer to either the Emperor's plans or Chaos' - maybe Chaos intended the Khan to land on Chemos and Slaanesh just fethed everything up...

Mellow wrote:He made the thunder warriors because they were all that was required for the conquest of earth. Anything superior would have been more difficult to get rid of at the end of their life cycle. Did He have Custodians at this point?

Also in typical scientist fashion I don’t think He had perfected his creation process at the point of the DAoT so that would be why the Primarchs didn’t exist.

Yeah, that certainly makes sense. The Thunder Warriors were pretty flawed. I could see a situation where he tries to do his own super soldiers & comes up with two results - the Thunder Warriors, who can be mass-produced but are crazy and unstable, and the Custodes, which are perfect, but too resource-heavy to produce. Thus, he decides he's gonna have to use the CHAOS KNOWLEDGE/POWER to create the Primarchs to get stable armies.

But that implies that the power he stole way back in the DAoT wasn't specifically for creating Primarchs. If it was specifically for that purpose, I still find it hard to believe he didn't even try and make them for 5000 years. Maybe it was the last resort. Or maybe the power he stole was actually the knowledge of the webway?

Andykp wrote:I hadn’t considered what the primarchs would’ve been like had they been raised with the emperor. Good point that. They wouldn’t have the blatant daddy issues that they all do either.

I really think this is the big takeaway from MoM - what the Custodes are actually like and the Emperor's relationship to them. They're the closest to 'colleagues' he has, the only ones he confides in, and they're raised from such a young age all they know is their Imperial upbringing. Yet they DEFINITELY don't think of the Emperor as their father. I don't think it's a big jump to assume that the Primarchs would have been way more like that if things had gone according to plan.

The Emperor plays the long game, so it wouldn't be surprising if he got the powers well in advanced, he didn't need them until the Unification wars and he didn't need the Astartes until the great crusade. Plus we don't know how long it took him to be able to make the Custodes etc. Plus he makes what he needs, he could have made the Astartes better but didn't need to, so he wouldn't have needed the Thunderwarriors until the unification wars, so I don't know why he would make them before that, unless he was just creating and testing the subjects

There is also another factor at play; he needed the labs on Luna to create the Astartes, so the Primarchs knowledge might not have been the key to the powers on Molech. Then again he has as much genomics tech on earth to create the Custodes and the Thunderwarriors.

We don't know the timeline of the Emperor during the dark age of technology. He mentions to Ra:

"Only 2 of them ever asked why I choose to reveal myself when I did." Wich is a question we don't know the answer too. He had to wait for the fall too launch the great crusade because it calmed the warp/destroyed the Eldar. but by that point he had already conquered earth and built the space marine legions.