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Of course He is a perpetual. The lore has stated He has been around for many thousands of years and He has shown one of the Custodians a vision of Him as a boy killing his uncle. If that was a lie why would The Emperor bother showing the Custodian anything in the first place.

There are of course many types of Perpetual. Some respawn on the spot. Some respawn elsewhere entirely. Some are psychic. Some are not.

All of which clearly have a “strong soul” that doesn’t just evaporate into the Warp upon death.

“HH quotes are gospel”. - WRONG.
Personal testimony is unbiased- WRONG. Everyone has an internal bias. She’s a loyal servant of the emperor? Is that not a bias?


That’s your main problem. Call me dense? Have a word! It’s one series of novels telling a story that’s been told in dozens of other places and ways. There is no gospel. There are no facts.

Reading comprehension isn’t just the ability to withdraw information from a text but to interpret context and demonstrate understanding of the text as a whole. As in understand what isn’t being said and what it means. U seem unable to do this. It’s bizaar really, how rigid you are in the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Have you noticed Delvarus that if you take out your posts in this thread you have a group of people having a nice chat about the fluff. No one arguing or getting cross or saying they are “butthurt”? Is everyone else the problem? Or is it just u?

Andykp wrote:
“HH quotes are gospel”. - WRONG.
Personal testimony is unbiased- WRONG. Everyone has an internal bias. She’s a loyal servant of the emperor? Is that not a bias?


That’s your main problem. Call me dense? Have a word! It’s one series of novels telling a story that’s been told in dozens of other places and ways. There is no gospel. There are no facts.

Reading comprehension isn’t just the ability to withdraw information from a text but to interpret context and demonstrate understanding of the text as a whole. As in understand what isn’t being said and what it means. U seem unable to do this. It’s bizaar really, how rigid you are in the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Have you noticed Delvarus that if you take out your posts in this thread you have a group of people having a nice chat about the fluff. No one arguing or getting cross or saying they are “butthurt”? Is everyone else the problem? Or is it just u?

It is gospel if the writer is explicit in their meaning and if it hasn't been contradicted by other lore. I never said personal testimony is unbiased, but explain the bias in Sureka saying that, is she just making it up and risking her life protecting the gateway from Horus who ends up killing her for the lols of it. She biased on the loyal side but Horus and Erebus are biased on the Chaos side and both corroborate the same story. There is no interpretation to this certain instance. Your constant arguing point is 'interpretation' (learn another word) that's why It's pointless arguing with you, if you don't take anything as fact its pointless. Its a fact the Emperor is on the golden throne but not to you, to you he's surfing on a golden surf board because interpretation. When things are implicit, inferred, implied etc. then it opens up to interpretation, or if you are having an argument say, what do you think the Emperor lost in the deal to chaos, that is interpretation, citing and arguing about explicit instances in the lore is NOT interpretation. Nearly everyone on this thread I've proven wrong in one thread and another, like you, I was having an argument in another thread with you and now you've come here, to give me gak. I don't mind people telling me I'm wrong bring it on, makes for a better argument, but most people here have said I do this and that, I use quotes out of context or use lore that has nothing to do with the subject, blah blah blah, and not a single one of them can quote a single instance where I've done that so yeah it is butthurtness, if they find a few instances where I have done that then I be happy to admit, maybe I do do that. I keep asking for proof but none comes. I can be an inscrutable donkey-cave the way I come across, but none of its personal, even with you we've insulted each other and I don't care, its been fun, I'm not going to hold it against you, but people take things far too seriously. Take Formosa we've been done this road before, I've called him a liar before, we've insulted one another and had a heated debate and then in other threads I act like it never happened and I agree with him on points and vice versa. I'm a bit wrong in the head, I literally don't care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mellow wrote:
Of course He is a perpetual. The lore has stated He has been around for many thousands of years and He has shown one of the Custodians a vision of Him as a boy killing his uncle. If that was a lie why would The Emperor bother showing the Custodian anything in the first place.

There are of course many types of Perpetual. Some respawn on the spot. Some respawn elsewhere entirely. Some are psychic. Some are not.

All of which clearly have a “strong soul” that doesn’t just evaporate into the Warp upon death.

Plus his gifts that he imparted to the Primarchs come from him. He used his own DNA to make them. Granted there is some warp fuckery going on with the Primarch project as well but most of the other Primarchs gifts have been attributed to his own abilities, so It would be odd if he wasn't a perpetual. I didn't even say the Emperor was a perpetual in this thread anyways, I said Sureka was a perpetual. Arbitorlan misread what I said.

Well that’s where we differ then. I like discussions rather than arguments. Discussions where ideas can be past around and built upon. Interpretations are vital in discussing works of fiction, it’s all we have. U interpret very very literally and because of that you miss things. When people see them you just say they are wrong and throw an out of context quote at them.

I come on these threads to discuss the background of the game I love. I am a very narrative player and the back ground is important to me. I like to discuss it. U seem to like to like to argue about the black library books. Maybe you should do it on that forum because the background is made up of much more than those books.

I promise you I’m not sore in the butt. I don’t like seeing you ruining the fun for everyone. So I call you out on your behaviour and will do again. I will be back as I like this section of the forum. I don’t visit the black library one. So is this a discussion of the back ground or just a chance for you to demonstrate what hh books you’ve read.

Andykp wrote:
Well that’s where we differ then. I like discussions rather than arguments. Discussions where ideas can be past around and built upon. Interpretations are vital in discussing works of fiction, it’s all we have. U interpret very very literally and because of that you miss things. When people see them you just say they are wrong and throw an out of context quote at them.

I come on these threads to discuss the background of the game I love. I am a very narrative player and the back ground is important to me. I like to discuss it. U seem to like to like to argue about the black library books. Maybe you should do it on that forum because the background is made up of much more than those books.

I promise you I’m not sore in the butt. I don’t like seeing you ruining the fun for everyone. So I call you out on your behaviour and will do again. I will be back as I like this section of the forum. I don’t visit the black library one. So is this a discussion of the back ground or just a chance for you to demonstrate what hh books you’ve read.

I don't interpret literally at all, when something is implicit I'll interpret it in many ways. I love to argue, nothing wrong with that. I don't ruin the fun for anyone, people still comment, they wouldn't comment if they weren't having fun unless it was their ego making them continue. "demonstrate what hh books you’ve read." baseless look through my comments and threads, people ask me for quotes and evidence I give them it, we all like showing how much we know but I don't just express what I know, just because I have a vast knowledge on the HH series doesn't mean I have arguments just to show that, I'll have a discussion but if someone says something that isn't right I'll correct them like EVERY single person does on this website. I happen to do it more than average and that pisses people off, but they have no compunction about doing the same thing but for me its a far more extreme indictment when I do it and everyone conveniently forgets that the threads are plastered with their own 'you're wrong' comments. Its quite funny actually.

After five pages, all I can say is "wow".

Fair enough, then we will keep clashing but if that’s what you like then that’s your business. I will keep saying you’re wrong when you are and you can keep quoting stuff at people who aren’t bothered. Enjoy.

Andykp wrote:
Well that’s where we differ then. I like discussions rather than arguments. Discussions where ideas can be past around and built upon. Interpretations are vital in discussing works of fiction, it’s all we have. U interpret very very literally and because of that you miss things. When people see them you just say they are wrong and throw an out of context quote at them.

I come on these threads to discuss the background of the game I love. I am a very narrative player and the back ground is important to me. I like to discuss it. U seem to like to like to argue about the black library books. Maybe you should do it on that forum because the background is made up of much more than those books.

I promise you I’m not sore in the butt. I don’t like seeing you ruining the fun for everyone. So I call you out on your behaviour and will do again. I will be back as I like this section of the forum. I don’t visit the black library one. So is this a discussion of the back ground or just a chance for you to demonstrate what hh books you’ve read.

is there a black library forum? *is mildy curious*

Anyway Don't let Del drive you away man if you enjoy discussing things.
Thing is we do need to be careful with the novels. there is at least one confirmed bit of "no they where just blowing smoke" in the novels. ADB has confirmed that the Word Bearers where "incorrect" in their speculation that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost two chapters.

No there isn’t! No black library forum. No idea where I got that from. Was sure there was? Maybe it was the beer or painkillers! Or both!!! I’m going nowhere. Like I said. Background is why I love 40k. Fingers crossed they don’t answer all the questions in these books. Maybe in the last book the emperor will wake up and it was all a dream!

No it'll all be a simulation run by Old Ones to see if a plan would work. The final sentence of 40k lore will be "So they chucked plan Five on the no pile".

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

Thank god! (Gods!). Thought I was the one missing the point for a minute. Glad to hear it’s not just me who sees this. Thank you for explaining in a much more concise and eloquent way than I could.

If you're gna go into a discsussion saying I'm gna ignore the text and only subtext expect people to disagree with you.

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

Abaddon is the one who tells Loken that Erebus created the lodges way back and Sejunus' death shows that they were around before Ullanor yes I've qouted and detailed this all ready in the thread. Yeah Horus is biased but if everyone would actually read the book its Sureka that tells the story of the Emperor going to Molech for powers so we have one biased conjecture from Horus and someone who was actually with the Emperor and is the Emperors servant telling the same story. So its irrelevant that Horus is biased. This is why everyone disagrees, because they argue on the matter of a novel they haven't even read and that is why so many people are disagreeing with me, and its here in the quotes of this thread, because everyone was arguing on the basis of Horus being biased, which is irrelevant if you've actually read the book and people are still arguing on that basis... It would only be relevant if Horus was the only one telling the story of the Emperor in Molech, but no you have Horus and a completely different source that has no Chaos bias like Horus, she is a servant of the Emperor, Jesus... Read the book before debating on it, this is getting so comical now, because if you did you'd know about Sureka you wouldn't focus on Horus that is familiar to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
If you're gna go into a discsussion saying I'm gna ignore the text and only subtext expect people to disagree with you.

Where have I ignored the text... Subtext lol I take these sort of accusations seriously when people show me evidence of them, otherwise its akin to listening to gibberish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

Thank god! (Gods!). Thought I was the one missing the point for a minute. Glad to hear it’s not just me who sees this. Thank you for explaining in a much more concise and eloquent way than I could.

You are missing the point lol read the comment above^

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?

BrianDavion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?

Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.

BrianDavion wrote:
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

It's no use. He has his own idea of what the lore is and if you think differently than him you're wrong. If you make direct quotes, he says that you are ignoring subtext, and if you try to argue subtext he just says "lol show me where it says that".

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

It's no use. He has his own idea of what the lore is and if you think differently than him you're wrong. If you make direct quotes, he says that you are ignoring subtext, and if you try to argue subtext he just says "lol show me where it says that".

I never once said you or anyone here was ignoring the subtext. I never say that, its what everyone here is saying that I do lol

"So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising" You said that as your opinion, you never posted one fact to back that up.
here this is what you said

"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.

When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear."

where exactly is the quote from any book and where is any evidence whatsoever lol right when he started to be influenced by chaos, yeah right when was just before Davin, and 'Influenced Astartes stated surrounding him and whispering in his ear' yeah that happened in False Gods. These people can try and argue for you, but you know exactly what you said and that's why you kept quite and let them do the arguing for you lol. You know it won't kill you to admit you're wrong. I've even done it at times and I know how much the people on here hate me lol and wish they could see me humbled. Courage and Honour my brother.

You are just making things up lol You do know everything you've said is documented on this thread... These people are trying to protect you, but its all there quoted, you were wrong and you are basking in their protection, you all band together and try to stroke your wounded pride, its so sad. But none of you's can ever be wrong because 'interpretation' he's just being too 'literal to the actual lore.' lol ah, I'm having fun.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.
.

Ohh REALLY?

let's borrow a page from your book and provide some QUOTES shall we?



BTW if you want a PAGE referance that's at the end of page 264 and the top of page 265 of Horus Rising (epub edition)
So yes, Erebus was indeed acting as an advisor. in a high level meeting discussing what courses of action to take that involved Two PRIMARCHS. Erebus was actively involved.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.
.

Ohh REALLY?

let's borrow a page from your book and provide some QUOTES shall we?

Spoiler:

"‘And it seems my wisest option is to return to Terra and confront the Council on the issue of taxation.’
Sanguinius sniggered.
‘I was not wrought to do that,’ Horus said.
‘Then we should consider the interex, lord,’ said Erebus.
 
EREBUS, OF THE Word Bearers Legion, the XVII, had joined them a fortnight earlier as part of the contingent brought by Varvarus. In his stone-grey Mark IV plate, inscribed with bas-relief legacies of his deeds, Erebus was a sombre, serious figure. His rank in the XVII was first chaplain, roughly equivalent to that of Abaddon or Eidolon. He was a senior commander of that Legion, close to Kor Phaeron and the primarch, Lorgar, himself. His quiet manner and soft, composed voice commanded instant respect from all who met him, but the Luna Wolves had embraced him anyway. The Wolves had historically enjoyed a relationship with the Bearers as close as the one they had formed with the Emperor’s Children. It was no coincidence that Horus counted Lorgar amongst his most intimate brothers, alongside Fulgrim and Sanguinius.
Erebus, who time had fashioned as much into a statesman as a warrior, both of which duties he performed with superlative skill, had come to find the Warmaster at the behest of his Legion. Evidently, he had a favour to crave, a request to make. One did not send Erebus except to broker terms.
However, on his arrival, Erebus had understood immediately the pressure laid at Horus’s door, the countless voices screaming for attention. He had shelved his reason for coming, wishing to add nothing to the Warmaster’s already immense burden, and had instead acted as a solid counsel and advisor with no agenda of his own."
(This BTW is from the point of view of Gavriel Loken, I think it's safe to say that the "no agenda of his own" was incorrect)

BTW if you want a PAGE referance that's at the end of page 264 and the top of page 265 of Horus Rising (epub edition)
So yes, Erebus was indeed acting as an advisor. in a high level meeting discussing what courses of action to take that involved Two PRIMARCHS. Erebus was actively involved.

Because Horus would have known about the stealing of the Anatheme, he would also know the plan on Davin in false gods:

"Why then had the Word Bearers brought them here again?
Some hours before, on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, Maloghurst had activated the data-slate he held in his twisted claw of a hand,
the skin fused and wet pink, despite the best efforts of the Legion apothecaries to restore it. He had scanned the contents of the
communique within the slate once more, angry at the turn of phrase used by the petitioner.
He did not relish the prospect of showing the message to the Warmaster and briefly wondered if he could ignore it or pretend the
missive had never come before him, but Maloghurst had not risen to become the Warmaster's equerry by insulating him from bad
news. He sighed, these days the words of bland administrators carried the weight of the Emperor and, as much as Maloghurst wanted
to, he could not ignore this message in particular.
The Warmaster would never agree to it, but Maloghurst had to tell him. In a moment of weakness, Maloghurst turned and limped
across the Strategium deck towards the Warmaster's sanctum chamber. He would leave the slate on the Warmaster's table, for him to
find in his own time.
The sanctum doors slid smoothly aside, revealing the dark and peaceful interior.
Maloghurst enjoyed the solitude of the sanctum, the coolness of the air easing the pain of his raw skin and twisted spine. The only
sound that broke the stillness of the sanctum was the breath rasping in his throat, the abnormal rearward curvature of his spine placing
undue pressure on his lungs.
Maloghurst shuffled painfully along the length of the smooth surfaced oval table, reaching out to place the slate at its head, where the"

Well he was an adviser I'll admit I got that wrong, though this is quite relevant:

"However, on his arrival, Erebus had understood immediately the pressure laid at Horus’s door, the countless voices screaming for attention. He had shelved his reason for coming, wishing to add nothing to the Warmaster’s already immense burden, and had instead acted as a solid counsel and advisor with no agenda of his own. For this, the Mournival had admired him greatly, and wel-comed him, like Raldoron, into the circle."

but he was only there a fortnight before the interex

"EREBUS, OF THE Word Bearers Legion, the XVII, had joined them a fortnight earlier as part of the contingent brought by Varvarus. In his stone-grey Mark IV plate, inscribed with bas-relief legacies of his deeds, Erebus was a sombre, serious figure. His rank in the XVII was first chaplain, roughly equivalent to that of Abaddon or Eidolon. He was a senior commander of that Legion, close to Kor Phaeron and the primarch, Lorgar, himself"

So no he's still wrong. He was't being influenced until False Gods, he was an adviser two weeks before the interex so even if Erebus was influencing on matters about chaos, it would still mean wizards thought he became warmaster right after Davin lol I do listen to people, you are the only person that has shown actual facts to say I'm wrong in a factual claim or said something so logically sound that I can't dispute it, and I've admitted that, the rest haven't so it probably seems to you that I don't. If someone says, yeah but the subtext, that isn't going to win me over especially when we are making factual claims.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?

Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.

I don't know why I'm bothering, but...

We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.

So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation.

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?

Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.

I don't know why I'm bothering, but...

We know Sureka was there when the Emperor first went to Molech and we know she was there when he came out of the Chaos gate. She was there when Horus arrived too. We know the Emperor got something while inside the Warp but the exact nature of what he achieved is completely unknown. Only the Emperor can say for sure. It seems likely it had something to do with the creation of the Primarchs. We also know Horus later enters the same Warp gate and Sureka believes he has struck the same deal with the Chaos gods. Horus also believes this to be the case, but claims he earned by right the power that the Emperor stole through deception and lies. I have no doubt that Sureka and Horus are both sincere in their beliefs but the point is neither of them know for sure what the Emperor received from the Chaos gods. Given the nature of the Chaos gods it seems much more likely any bargain they make is going to be quite nebulous in nature. Something along the lines of giving the Emperor/Horus the "power to defeat their enemies" rather than just handing over a genetic blueprint for the Primarchs or a foolproof battleplan for the siege of Terra.

So we don't really know what either the Emperor or Horus got, so we can't say for sure whether they got the same thing. To me it seems likely they didn't as their goals and methods were very different, beyond a very general desire to conquer the galaxy. It also seems likely that Horus was deluded. That entire passage about how he acquired his power, that you quoted yourself, is textbook wish fulfilment. Horus believes the Emperor stole his power from the gods while he earned his honourably. Nobody except the Chaos gods knows for sure. Anyone else involved doesn't have the full picture, including Sureka. That leaves the whole thing open for interpretation.

Yeah you said we both know the Emperor got something inside, we agree other than that I think he got power, she knows the house of eyes purpose as she knew what Horus got. End of.

Horus knew of the Emperors deal from the Emperor himself, not doe to chaos but the Emperor erased his memory, he went to Molech because of the dreams he was remembering what the Emperor erased from his mind, he killed the Emperors psychic guard, the flaming angel to remember again, so its obvious that Horus knew exactly what the Emperor got especially due to him having it aswell:


"It moved faster than anything Horus had ever known.
Faster than an eldar blade-lord, faster than the megarachnids of Murder, faster than thought. Its body
was mist and light, sound and fury.
A Justaerin was the first to die, his body split down the middle as though he’d run full tilt into a
bandsaw. His body emptied of blood and organs in a heartbeat.
Horus moved before anyone else, slashing his taloned gauntlet at the glittering light. His claws cut
empty air and a golden fist slammed into his stomach. Doubled over, he saw Aximand shooting. The
Widowmaker hunted for a target.
Noctua was down on one knee, clutching his chest. Abaddon ran to his side, a long-bladed sword held
low. Stuttering muzzle flare lit the cavern in strobing bursts. Suit lights swayed and danced. Hard volleys
of mass-reactives shattered crystalline growths, blew out fist-sized lumps of calcified stone. The
Justaerin moved to interpose themselves between their attacker and the Warmaster.
Noctua fired from his knees. Kibre added his combi-bolters to the sweeping barrage, not aiming, just
firing.
They hit nothing.
The cavern was suddenly gloriously illuminated. An angel of fire, with swords of lightning held
outstretched. Faceless, remorseless, Horus recognised it for what it was. A sentinel creature, a final
psychic trap emplaced by the Emperor to destroy those who sought to unpick the secrets of His past.
Horus could barely fix on the beast.
Its radiance was so fierce, so blinding. Its swords unleashed forking blasts of lightning, and Aximand
was hurled across the cavern. His smoking body slammed into a wall. Stone and armour split. Horus
knew the impact trauma was enough to break his spine.
Coruscating blue swords lashed out like whips. Abaddon dived to the side, his pauldron sheared clean
away. A portion of the First Captain’s shoulder remained inside, and bright blood sheeted his arm. One of
the Justaerin took a step towards his downed captain before remembering his place.
The creature turned its gaze upon the Terminator. The warrior staggered. The combi-bolter fell from his
grip as he struggled to tear off his helmet. His screams over the vox were agonised. Liquid light writhed
in the joints of his armour, spilling out in blistering streams of white-green fire.
Horus shucked his taloned gauntlet, slamming shells into the breech of the inbuilt bolters. He often
spoke of the murder-haruspex of Cthonia that led him to the weapon in an arming chamber of a long-dead
warlord. That wasn’t entirely accurate, but the truth was for Horus alone. The gauntlet’s baroque
craftsmanship was unmatched, and though Horus had been little more than a callow youth at the time, the
gauntlet fitted his blood-scabbed hand as though fashioned just for him.
A two metre tongue of flame blazed from the weapon. The recoil was savage, but Urtzi Malevolus had
built his armour well and suspensor compensators kept it on target. Scads of light flew from the angel like
molten steel. Torn from its body, its essence dimmed, dissolution turning it to vapour in seconds.
It shrieked and the air between it and Horus buckled with concussive force. The last Justaerin flew
apart, shattering like an assembly diagram of something vastly complex. His skeleton and internal biology
atomised in a flash burn of intense light.
Horus flew back, as though lifted by a hurricane. He came down hard in the water, its freezing
temperature ramming the breath from him with an explosive fist. His mouth filled with black water.
Throat muscles reacted instantly to seal his lungs and shift breathing to secondary respiratory organs.
He spat black mouthfuls and rose from the water in time to see Abaddon pinned in place by blazing
tridents of lightning. Light poured from the First Captain’s mouth. Kibre’s gunfire sprayed the angel of
fire, surrounding it in swarms of phosphor embers. Enough mass-reactive shells to put down a bull-grox
achieved precisely nothing against the blazing sentinel.
Horus marched from the lake, whips of fire arcing from his talon. Noctua plunged his sword into the
angel’s back. The blade melted in an instant and Noctua cried in pain, clutching his ruined hand. Aximand
crawled towards the fight, spine cracked, legs useless.
Horus didn’t bother to shoot the angel. He killed the power to his talons with a thought. Its essence was
godly and mortal weapons were useless. He reached for his only other option.
The angel spun to face him, releasing Abaddon from its crackling barbs. The First Captain fell to his
front, broiled near death by divine fire.
The angel descended on Horus, wings of bright flame erupting from its back. The swords of lightning
became elongated claws. Furnace heat blazed from its body.
Horus stepped to meet it.
He swung Worldbreaker in an upward arc, like a hammer thrower from an ancient age. A weapon
forged by the Emperor’s own hand, Worldbreaker was a gift from a god. Its killing head buried itself in
the flaming body of the angel.
Only one thing could end this creature, and that was the power that had birthed it.
The angel exploded. Streamers of fire arced from its death like blazing promethium. It shrieked as the
power binding it to this place was shattered. By the time the Warmaster’s maul had completed its swing,
the angel was no more.
Its scream lingered long, echoing throughout the mountain, all across Molech and through uncounted
angles of space and time. The embers of its sun-hot core drifted to the cavern floor like grave-bound
fireflies.
And with its death, Horus remembered Molech.
He remembered everything"


"They met on an island at the centre of an artificial lake. Reflected moonlight wavered on its gently
rippling surface. The location spoke of earlier times in the Legion’s history, before ritual had replaced
tradition. When things had been simpler.
Now it seemed that even that simplicity had been a lie.
A flaming spear rammed into the ground at the centre of the island burned with orange light, bathing the
features of those assembled in a ruddy glow of health that belied their true condition.
Abaddon’s skin was waxy with regenerative balms and fresh-grafted skin. Noctua now boasted a
clicking augmetic for a right hand, while Aximand was supported by a spinal armature while his shattered
vertebrae regrew. Only Falkus Kibre had fought the angel of fire and emerged unscathed.
Maloghurst stood with the Mournival, for once looking like the least wounded among them. Ger
Gerradon and his growing band of Luperci also gathered to hear of the invasion’s next phase.
‘We have achieved great things, my sons, but the hardest fight is yet to come,’ began Horus, circling the
burning spear and placing a hand over the amber eye at his chest. ‘The enemy mass before us, an unbroken
host of men and armour stretching all the way to Iron Fist Mountain. Armies from all across Molech are
gathering, but they will not stop us from reaching Lupercalia.’
Aximand stepped from the circle.
Of course it would be Aximand. He would have fought the coming battle a hundred times already in his
head. Of all his sons, Little Horus Aximand was the most fastidious, the most conscientious. The one
whose thoughts came closest to his own.
‘The numbers do not favour us, my lord,’ said Aximand.
‘Numbers aren’t all that decide a battle,’ pointed out Kibre.
‘I know that, Falkus, but even so, we’re outnumbered nearly fifty to one. Perhaps if the Death Guard
fought with us…’
‘Our brothers of the Fourteenth Legion are poised to be the anvil upon which the hammer of the Sons of
Horus will break the Imperials,’ said Horus.
‘They’ll be with us for the coming fight?’ said Aximand. ‘We can count on that?’
‘Have you ever known Mortarion’s sloggers to fail?’ said Horus.
Aximand nodded, conceding the point. ‘What are your orders?’
‘Simple. We fight for the living and kill for the dead. Isn’t that what you say?’
‘Something like that,’ grinned Aximand.
‘What’s at Lupercalia?’ asked Abaddon, his voice forever burned down to a scorched rasp. ‘What did
you learn from the thing in the cave’s death?’
Horus nodded and said, ‘I remembered why the Emperor came here, what He found and why He didn’t
want anyone else to know about it. Lupercalia is where I’ll find what we need to win this long war.’
‘So what did it show you?’ asked Aximand.
‘All in good time,’ said Horus. ‘But, first, I have a question for you, my sons. Do any of you know how
life began on Old Earth?’


Then after he got the powers, he again said he got the same powers:

Horus smiled at the extra vowel at the end of the honorific. A natural development, given the power that now filled him. Power that had almost cost him his life to obtain. Not that to look at him anyone would know that. The many hurts he had suffered to win Molech had healed years ago it seemed. It was hard to be sure. His sons told him he’d only been gone moments, how could he tell them different? Molech was a far distant memory to Horus now. He’d fought wars, slain monsters and defied gods in those moments. He’d wrested the power of those same gods at the heads of vast armies of daemons. He’d fought in battles that would rage unchecked for all eternity. He’d won a thousand kingdoms within the empyrean, billions of vassals to do with as he pleased, but he’d refused it. Every pleasure and prize was his for the taking, but he’d denied them all. He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god. ‘Sire, what are your orders?’ said Ezekyle. Horus stared at the veil of stars, as though he could see all the way from Molech to Terra. He extended a clawed hand, as though already cupping the precious bauble of humanity’s cradle. ‘I am coming for you, father,’ said Horus.

Why does your evidence have to come from the Emperor, why can't it come from Horus or Sureka. If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does. I've we reserved the same scrutiny with everything we wouldn't be able to say anything in the lore was taken for granted.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

So much this. Seriously Delvarus, if you listen to nothing else in this thread (which seems to be what your regular MO is) please at least consider what Andy says here. The Lodges are a great example of this, laying the foundation for what eventually happens to Horus. For 60 years the warrior lodges grew in the Luna Wolves, apparently just an adopted tradition. It's only later we learn they were basically Chaos cults and therefore we can extrapolate from there that the seeds of betrayal were planted many, many years before Horus was injured on Davin. There's no individual line or paragraph in any books that outright tell you that but it's pretty obvious in hindsight. If you're not able to consider the context and nuance of what's being written then it's really pointless trying to debate much of anything at all.

That context extends to pretty much anything o do with Chaos. The very nature of Chaos is to be unreliable and manipulative. So when Horus talks about his experience on Molech and how he was better and more noble than the Emperor in his dealings with Chaos and proved himself worthy you need to realise his biggest character flaw is pride. Then read the passage again and see how it matches up to just what a narcissist with daddy issues would love to believe about themselves. Also consider that there are many things we'll likely never know about the specifics of various parts of the background. Keeping some things mysterious is just good writing when it comes to world-building.

he's also wrong anyway, Horus Rising has Erebus show up and it's noted that he immediatly started acting as an advisor to Horus. So yeah, even if you JUST use the direct lines in the book, Horus' manipulation started as early as Horus Rising.

No he didn't he was around but didn't act as Horus adviser until False gods, but that has nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that he became warmaster during the Ullanor celebration, not when the Astartes around him started influencing him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
So, sureka went with emps to to this gate and he went into the warp. He came back more powerful. That doesn’t tell you he made a deal or kicked ass draigo style. He went. He came back. Yes?

Now that you are bringing up here now that I've told you of her proves my point, why would you argue about Horus being biased in the first place if you knew who Sureka was. You argue about Horus' bias I tell you about Sureka then you change your argument to 'We don't know what the Emperor got from the Gods.' This has been the basis of the start of this argument, people that haven't read the book are trying to contradict what happened, so that is why so many people are arguing with me, go look at their quotes, they've all made the same argument as you and then after I shed some light of the matter, they've been reduced to 'yeah but we don't know what happened when the Emperor talked to the Chaos gods.' She went with the Emperor yada yada yada, but she knew after Horus went in that he got the same power as the Emperor, which is also in the book lol, Horus got the same powers, what do you think the Emperor was doing, playing jenga with the gods and then just became more powerful from the effort of jenga playing lol This argument has already be hashed out, you should read the whole thread. See how all the 'you're taking all this out of context' and 'you are ignoring the text' accusations are so ridiculous, even though funny. Every time I prove them wrong about the lore, or proven they don't know what they are talking about, they wait until tonnes of people have commenting thinking that that erases the proof they are wrong from the universe and then they say 'he's just taking things out of context.' 'he's ignoring the subtleties,' it happens like clockwork. You are just doing what everyone else is, you are so intent on proving me wrong, because I proved you wrong before that you are taking up a position to argue with me that its flawed to begin with because you haven't even read the book. I bring this out in people but you should be self aware enough not to do it.

Don’t know where that came from. I was sumerising what was explicitly in the text from surekas point of view. I was summarising your position dev. I didn’t even mention Horus or bias!! Just read the three sentences I wrote. U have said many times that sureka knows this and that’s. And quoted text to prove your point. All sureka “knows” , as in physically witnessed, is that he went in. Came back changed, somehow more powerful. End of. Anything else she knows is hearsay. It’s from what she’s been told by others.

Here’s where you have argued about sub text. U said why would she guard the door for ever and die trying if it weren’t of great importance etc.

So horus is the one telling us that the emperor made a pact with chaos? Can you seriously say that he is a reliable southern of information? Where did he learn of the pact, you say the emperor told him but aerated his memory. Ok. That means he only has dreams to remember. Dreams? Reliable? No.

Next it’s possible that the gods told him of a deal. Reliable, no no no.

Now let back to some subtext. Horus in the massive quote you put up claims to have won his powers by beating armies and taking them from the gods. And he claims to be a “god” himself.

Let’s lookmat that. That is clearly hubris. Sheer arrogance. Do you really believe a mortal (all be it a primaris) could defeat gods and have his way in the warp?

Is it not more possible that the gods allowed him to think this to fuel his ego and drive him on. That they in fact tricked him into thinking he took the powers they gave him? If you say no, he took the powers then you are really saying that Horus was the instigator of the war and the gods were his pawns, when in fact we know for sure that it was the other way round, the gods were calling the shots and Horus was there pawn.

Therefore we must conclude that Horus was gifted his powers but tricked into thinking he had taken them to fuel his ego and further chaos gods goals.

Now, how does this tie intro the emperors deal. Well we now know horus was mislead and due to his immense ego and hubris and daddy issues “thinks” he did better than his dad. But in actual fact we only know what horus thinks happened. He thinks his dad was a wuss and he was nails. In actual fact he is just a rube.

Mic drop.

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Reds8n

Nice insults. Classy.

Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.

You also say " If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does.". That's not necessarily true either. The unreliable narrator is a well-known literary device. Regardless, all the passage I quoted above is about how Horus views his experiences so it is inherently unreliable and prone to bias. And once again, if you analyse exactly what Sureka actually knew, for sure, you'll realise it's not very much at all.

Slipspace wrote:
Nice insults. Classy.

Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.

You also say " If a book is in third person narrative then whatever is narrate is fact, what characters think, feel or assume is up to interpretation but if the narration says x or y happens then it does.". That's not necessarily true either. The unreliable narrator is a well-known literary device. Regardless, all the passage I quoted above is about how Horus views his experiences so it is inherently unreliable and prone to bias. And once again, if you analyse exactly what Sureka actually knew, for sure, you'll realise it's not very much at all.

I never insulted you. I'm not even talking to you. "The unreliable narrator " isn't being employed. Horus knew exactly what he was getting into, but tricked... sure he could have been but where is that relative and there is no real basis for thinking that anyways.

Slipspace wrote:
Nice insults. Classy.

Anyway, the subtext of what happened to Horus seems pretty obvious to me: "He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." That last sentence is pretty much a dead giveaway. Horus thinks he's a god. He thinks he did everything better than the Emperor. He has absolutely no good reason to believe that other than his pride requires it to be true. The Chaos gods are manipulative, we know this. They play on emotions, ego, any weakness they can to achieve their goals. You say Horus was never tricked into taking his powers. How can you be sure? Perhaps the Emperor understood much more clearly than Horus what the price of acceptance was. If Horus didn't fully understand what he was getting into that would mean he was tricked into it, from a certain point of view.

This is reinforced (or at least proven more muddy) in Wolfsbane, where

Not as much in chaos but in his choice: He does have to kill his father. And considering the Emperor by any means necesarry/ I am the only way personality.

He might have a point.

I'm more interested in his plan for what to do after killing the Emperor. If I was a Primarch that would the deciding factor in joining him.