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Yes those are the chapters I’m referring to. I’m not sure you should be posting contents of novels on the internet but that’s up to you.

Mellow wrote:
Yes those are the chapters I’m referring to. I’m not sure you should be posting contents of novels on the internet but that’s up to you.

They are just quotes, its legal to do that.

godking wrote:
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?

He doesn't.

godking wrote:
And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?

He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected.

godking wrote:
Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.

Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves.

godking wrote:
Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.

Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.

"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.

Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."

When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.

Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.

Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."

I never said "warmaster" was a chaos title or that Horus fell to chaos before becoming warmaster and I'm not sure how you are getting that from my quote... WTF?

Like, I am really wondering if you have reading comprehension issues or english is not your first language?

w1zard wrote:

godking wrote:
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?

He doesn't.

godking wrote:
And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?

He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected.

godking wrote:
Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.

Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves.

godking wrote:
Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.

Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.

"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.

Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."

When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.

Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.

Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."

I never said "warmaster" was a chaos title or that Horus fell to chaos before becoming warmaster and I'm not sure how you are getting that from my quote... WTF?

Like, I am really wondering if you have reading comprehension issues or english is not your first language?

I quoted this

"Wrong the Primarchs knew you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping to-day. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the cha-os it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well-prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, funda-mental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have tak-en great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatu-ral. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Super-natural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature. "

Then you said this

The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of chaos.

This was quoted before his fall. So I was right in using the quote but then you came up with this:

"When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

This is your quote. I didn't remember the argument well as you didn't say it was a chaos title. but you're still wrong. The quote I wrote was before he turned to chaos In Horus Rising. Then you started to say that he was influenced before then to try and wriggle out of being wrong, you said I miss quote to prove points, but I didn't. I never said that he was warmaster for ages before the HH I said he became warmaster at Ullanor.

My quote:

"No, he became Warmaster at Ullanor, when the Emperor left the Great Crusade. Have you even read the books, I mean that is a really odd thing to get so wrong.

"source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret" This is just your opinion. Why would Malcador tell him if the Emperor told Malcador not to lol

"Magnus damned himself and knew of it at Aghuro before the Heresy and before Nikaea."

Yes. After Horus became warmaster after Ullanor, he did START to fall to chaos. I don't see how I was claiming that "warmaster" was a chaos title or that he fell to chaos before he became warmaster.

Again, nothing I've said even implies that.

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

w1zard wrote:
Yes. After Horus became warmaster after Ullanor, he did START to fall to chaos. I don't see how I was claiming that "warmaster" was a chaos title or that he fell to chaos before he became warmaster.

Again, nothing I've said even implies that.

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about the true nature of CHAOS in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.

I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.

I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.

Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

w1zard wrote:

godking wrote:
{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'}

Yeah that scene is great. Take it with a grain of salt though, as this is coming from the leader of a rebellion against the Imperium, who fully admits she hates the Emperor on a personal level, and has intimate knowledge of how Perturabo thinks and what to say to get under his skin.

godking wrote:
90 % of Perturabo's issues are his own fault.

That is somewhat of an exaggeration. Certainly he has flaws. But I don't think he is any more flawed then a normal person is. All of the loyalist primarchs had flaws too, but theirs didn't get tweaked in the right fashion and under the right circumstances to make them turn traitor like Perturabo's did.

"You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' [...] You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]"

I mean, that is certainly a rude way of describing the totally understandable desire to receive appreciation and recognition for hard work.

We are getting off-topic at this point though....

Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?

And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?

Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.

Its obvious why the emperor chose Dorn over Perturabo to build his palace,

Dorn might be a slightly lesser siegemaster but has none of the hangups that Perturabo has.

If i had to work on a project and had the choice between a guy like Perturabo or a guy like Dorn to work with i would chose Dorn.

Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.

Dorn only started building defences in the palace when the HH started, so he didn't chose Dorn of Perty. Out of all the traitor Primarch Perty was the only one that still cared for humanity and even cared for all the other loyalist Astartes.

‘I have this hour spoken to the Imperial Regent, Malcador the Sigillite, via machine-call vox,’ said
the primarch. ‘It was my affirmation to him that, despite the dedication you have shown to the
Emperor in braving the gauntlet to carry forth your warning, the Council of Terra cannot be fully
certain where the loyalties of such men ultimately lie.’ There was a hard edge to Dorn’s voice, but for
the first time Garro sensed the tension in him. It was not easy for the primarch to utter such words to
fellow Astartes. ‘My orders were to return to Terra to bulwark the planet’s defences and it seems that
I may have to do that in order to resist my own brothers.’ He glanced at Garro. ‘I will attend the
Imperial Palace and brief the Emperor on this grave news. You, the refugees from the Vengeful Spirit
and all the Astartes from the Eisenstein, will remain in secure holding at the Somnus Citadel on Luna
until our master decides what your fate will be.’" - flight of the eisenstein.


Perty letting the Iron Hands escape:
"There will be some,’said Forrix, moving to the surveyor station and linking it to the launch decks. ‘A few will have reached saviour pods, but some are still out in the void aboard Stormbirds and torpedoes. There’re bound to be more left aboard the wreck too. I’m launching a full spread of rescue craft.’ Perturabo watched as the Trident began re-establishing control throughout the Iron Blood, establishing a contravallation of picket ships and organising the rescue effort for the crew of the Andronicus. Thousands had died in its sudden, merciless demise, but Forrix could yet save hundreds with his unmatched logistical nous. He watched the Iron Hands vessel twist on its axis, more agile than anything that ugly had a right to be. Still bleeding a tail of ignited plasma and mag-locked debris, the Sisypheum arced down towards a knot of storm clouds that looked to offer no easy way through. ‘My lord,’said Kroeger, his fingertips hovering over fire control. ‘Do we shoot now?’ ‘No,’said Perturabo. ‘Leave them. They’ve earned that much." - angel exterminatus

Perty not hating the Legions:

"Unlike many of his brothers, Perturabo did not hate the Legions that had remained true to the Emperor. They were tools with which their father had carved out his empire, warriors as abused as Perturabo’s sons, but too stubborn or too blind to see it. The Iron Hands were an honourable Legion, but they had changed in the centuries since Perturabo and his brother primarchs had each made that climb to the crenellated peak of the Astartes Tower to swear their oaths of moment" - angel exterminatus.

Dorn does have bad hang ups, he was constantly going into rages and had a very short temper.

He didn't work on his personality because he was very insular, he spent time creating little clock work warhound models and was obsessed with the minutia of details in perfecting something. He was still a deep thinker.

I respect Perturabo a lot.

This disproves nothing about Perturabo.

I have read the same novels that you have.

Yes Perturabo did not hate the Loyalist legion EXCEPT the imperial fists.

He was still a stubborn insular selfish donkey-cave who activelly chose to shut people out and then complains about not being recognized for his actions.

First his foster family, then the emperor and his brother primarchs.

His one sided personal feud with Dorn is a perfect example of the bad qualities of Perturabo on display.

Dorn has LESS personal hangups then Perturabo had and unlike Perturabo was able to see his failings and was willing to work on them as much as he could.

Perturabo is a classic example of the old saying "If everyone you meet is an donkey-cave then you are the donkey-cave"

I respect Perturabo for his Will and Brilliance i dislike him for his selfish martyr complex and stubborness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

godking wrote:
Why does Perturabo deserve more praise then other primarchs ?

He doesn't.

godking wrote:
And why did'nt HE make more of an effort to win people over ?

He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected.

godking wrote:
Perturabo expects people to praise him as great while not doing anything but the bare minumum to win people over.

Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves.

godking wrote:
Personality matters and Perturabo chose not to work on his personality.

Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You said the warmaster only became warmaster when he turned to chaos, as in it was a chaos title, I said the truth that he became warmaster at Ullanor, see use all just say that and agree with all the rest of the people I prove wrong, its sad.

"Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.

Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs."

When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.

Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.

Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time."

I never said "warmaster" was a chaos title or that Horus fell to chaos before becoming warmaster and I'm not sure how you are getting that from my quote... WTF?

Like, I am really wondering if you have reading comprehension issues or english is not your first language?

He did. Instead of being a glory hog he wanted to work in the background and do the REAL work. All he wanted was to be thanked and appreciated for it... instead he was spat on and disrespected

Was he or does HE FEEL that he was spat on and disrespected ? Remember this is a guy who started an one sided feud with Dorn because Dorn disagreed with him,

How much was being "spat on and disrespected" and how much was Perturabo's own ego and Martyr complex.

Perturabo engineered some of the hardest fought victories of the great crusade and did most of the actual legwork, while the other legions often swooped in after the battle was already won and claimed they did the entire thing themselves

Can you give examples of other Legion themselves actually claiming they did the entire things themselves ?

Perturbo was insular, and thought he didn't need to work on his personality because HIS HARD WORK WOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Obviously that isn't how the real world works most of the time, but like I said he was flawed.

He actively pushed people away and then blamed them for not recognizing his brilliance and hard work..

Brilliant Yes
Hard working Yes
Massive ego coupled with a martyr complex where he is always in the right and everybody else just fails to grasp his brilliance yes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.

I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.

Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.

That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.

I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.

Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.

That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.

Yeah that sounds good until you realise that there is no lore that says anything about Horus being influenced just after Ullanor.

"After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero."

'After he became warmaster he started being influenced by chaos' - there is no lore stating that

""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

The Astartes influencing Horus happened in false gods not Ullanor or shortly after. So I don't know how you can think he didn't think that Horus became warmaster when he turned to chaos.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.

I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.

Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.

That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.

Yeah that sounds good until you realise that there is no lore that says anything about Horus being influenced just after Ullanor.

"After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero."

'After he became warmaster he started being influenced by chaos' - there is no lore stating that

""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

The Astartes influencing Horus happened in false gods not Ullanor or shortly after. So I don't know how you can think he didn't think that Horus became warmaster when he turned to chaos.

except there is, Erebus had shown up around that time and was acting as an advisor, what do you think this guy was doing? He was paving the way. There was also the Legion lodges, that Horus knew of and gave tact approval of (and may even have watched their meetings) So yes, saying the seeds had been sown years earlier is certainly correct. You place too muchy focus on direct quotes Delvarus and are lousy at reading between the lines

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

no you said he was being influenced by Chaos when he became warmaster ^.

You said this:

After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero.

But it wasn't in Horus Rising it was False Gods when he turned to Chaos. So you thought he became warmaster during Horus Rising. He became warmaster at Ullanor. He was influenced by Chaos years after that.

Horus started his gradual fall into chaos right after he became warmaster. Considering that Istaavan III took place 5 years after the end of Ullanor that is a very short timeframe for Horus to fall, and he was being influenced by chaos tainted astartes the entire time, virtually from the day of his appointment as warmaster.

I never claimed Horus became warmaster during Horus Rising. Please learn to actually read and stop putting words in my mouth.

Well you thought he became traitor in Horus Rising and you think he became warmaster when he turned so you obviously did. I'm not putting words in your mouth, the quotes are all there to see. I don't want to embarrass you but I obviously don't do what you claim, you don't have to admit your wrong I don't care, I think you should admit I don't do what you claim though.

That's not what w1zard said at all. I really don't understand how you can read the quotes you're posting and think that. Horus became warmaster at Ullanor. That's not in dispute by anyone. What w1zard is saying is this is when the first seeds of the heresy were sown as it is around this time Horus starts to question the Emperor and the Chaos-tainted Astartes take an interest in him as the potential vessel for their plans. Horus makes the decision to turn to Chaos in False Gods but the seeds were sown much earlier. It's not literally a case of "Horus is loyal and good until False Gods, then immediately turns to Chaos all of a sudden". It's a process that began years earlier.

Yeah that sounds good until you realise that there is no lore that says anything about Horus being influenced just after Ullanor.

"After Horus became Warmaster he started being influenced by chaos tainted astartes being placed around him. He started learning things from them that the Emperor wouldn't approve of. I don't think it is fair to compare Horus' knowledge of chaos right before the athame stab to Magnus' knowledge of chaos near the beginning of the great crusade when he made his original deal (unknowingly) with Tzeentch. Horus learned more about what CHAOS actually was in the short time he was warmaster then Magnus ever knew pre-Prospero."

'After he became warmaster he started being influenced by chaos' - there is no lore stating that

""When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear. "

The Astartes influencing Horus happened in false gods not Ullanor or shortly after. So I don't know how you can think he didn't think that Horus became warmaster when he turned to chaos.

except there is, Erebus had shown up around that time and was acting as an advisor, what do you think this guy was doing? He was paving the way. There was also the Legion lodges, that Horus knew of and gave tact approval of (and may even have watched their meetings) So yes, saying the seeds had been sown years earlier is certainly correct. You place too muchy focus on direct quotes Delvarus and are lousy at reading between the lines

Yes Erebus made the lodges, but he or any other lodges where not directly influencing Horus, it wasn't until False Gods that happened and he was being specific with the astertes influencing him that happened in False Gods and these quotes were all written because of the fact that I posted a quote that Horus said in Horus Rising and wizard thought that that was when he had already turned, we were talking about direct quotes there was no reading between the lines. and if you are reading between the lines you need to say 'I think this happened' rather than 'this happened.' I think if I was anyone else you'd be agreeing with me. Anyhow he stated I use the lore when its not relevant, which isn't the case, so believe what you want about what he supposedly meant.

Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.

Did someone in this thread seriously suggest that Dorn worked on his personality?

Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did someone in this thread seriously suggest that Dorn worked on his personality?

I think its more that there are degrees of flaming butt-hole. Compared to Konrad Kurze, Angron has some redeeming personal qualities.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.

No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.

Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.

No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.

Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.

Mate I'm not going to argue with you its too frustrating, at least the other people on here can keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?

You only have something to say when everyone else does.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.

No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.

Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.

Mate I'm not going to argue with you its too frustrating, at least the other people on here can keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?

You only have something to say when everyone else does.

<REMOVED - RULE #1 PEOPLE> U keep posting questions and shouting down anyone who disagrees with, especially if they don’t agree with your dogmatic obsession with the lore.

I could quote to you the entire section of the rogue trader book on the emperor. It would tell you that the emperor was a immortal born of normal parents who hid his powers until the 31st millennium where he guided the psychicly awakening human race and crafted the imperium we know. It would tell you how he was so drained by his efforts that he has to sit in a life preserving throne using only his will to protect mankind from the perils of psychic knowledge. Unable to move at all. And that the throne is a life form in itself contstructed by the emperor. Self repairing and evolving. No deal with chaos. No mention of such heresey.
I have chapter approved articles that state there were 20 original space marine “chapters”, not legions! And only 7 of them remain. And the last the last founding was in 738 (m41).

But I can’t be bothered typing it all up. But it shows you at least, that the text you so vehemently extol is, in reality, a transient telling of an ever changing story. There is in effect no lore.

I for one do not subscribe to the idea that pius was a perpetual. He was a normal guardsman who helped save the emperor. I do subscribe to the emperor being the personification of earthly shaman and the star child theory. I believe that if there was a pact with chaos then we will never know the truth of it because anyone discussing it in any book will have good reason to lie and will be unreliable.

This is the beauty of it. It’s a game. It’s made up. Pick the bits you like. Leave the bits you don’t. But don’t tell someone their version is wrong. It can’t be. It’s theirs.

As me not being able to keep up, you haven’t actually set off anywhere mate. U have just sat throwing your toys out of the Pham while many people try to point you in the right direction.

rogue trader and second edition are not part of the current "lore cannon" Andy, utterly silly bringing them in. especially when it's a poor argument. right now we do not have eneugh evidance to say what happened. we can say what "the evidance suggests" but frankly until the HH series is finished there are some things I caution about taking as gospel because a lot of our sources here are from people whom are well.. dishonest

You can't really "not subscribe" to the idea that Pius was Perpetual. It's canon now.

You can choose to ignore it like I do in places but there's no point in trying to imply that it's a muddy subject at all.

My reason for bringing in 1sr edition fluff was to demonstrate that the fluff changes. There aren’t any facts. It’s all stories. And who dictates what’s canon and what’s not. It’s a fantasy setting. Black library could release a book next year that contradicts all of it. If you actually read the section on the emperor in rogue trader it fits the current fluff well, it’s just as if it was being explained to a normal citizen who isn’t aware of chaos and demons and traitorous spacemarines. It’s just brushes over those bits but otherwise fits.

Everyone telling any stories about the heresey era has an agenda and an internal bias of some sort. I hope we never got answers. But either way I will still enjoy the fluff I like. All the games my group play take part in our own sector and planet we invented and all that matters fluff wise is what the people in our ongoing story know. Their understanding of events will be unique to them and determined by their bias and their experiences. That’s the beauty of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
You can't really "not subscribe" to the idea that Pius was Perpetual. It's canon now.

You can choose to ignore it like I do in places but there's no point in trying to imply that it's a muddy subject at all.

Ito not muddy to me. He doesn’t come up often in our games or fluff in our campaigns but if he did he would still be a normal guardsman that died saving the emperor. I just ignore the “canon” or “lore”. Who’s to say I can’t? 40k is set in a big universe. Who’s to say that the people who live in the bit our games are set in know that version. Most normal humans aren’t aware of chaos or daemons or perpetuals. So that’s what’s canon in my games. U can’t say I’m wrong in my made up stories. I made them up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
You can't really "not subscribe" to the idea that Pius was Perpetual. It's canon now.

You can choose to ignore it like I do in places but there's no point in trying to imply that it's a muddy subject at all.

Used to be canon that he wasn’t. Then a terminator saved the emperor. Then a custodes. Canon isn’t permanent. Look at star wars.

for all we know by the time of the siege he IS a normal guardsman who gets killed. or he's a perpetual whom Horus actually outright kills and we know he was special and his being killed was an "impressive feat" but no one else does

BrianDavion wrote:
for all we know by the time of the siege he IS a normal guardsman who gets killed. or he's a perpetual whom Horus actually outright kills and we know he was special and his being killed was an "impressive feat" but no one else does

Exactly. Canon changes. On the planet my games happen on. He was just a normal guy and is now the saint we all know and love. That’s all that’s really known. And if you asked the locals on that world about the emperors deal with chaos they would be baffled as they haven’t heard of it.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
for all we know by the time of the siege he IS a normal guardsman who gets killed. or he's a perpetual whom Horus actually outright kills and we know he was special and his being killed was an "impressive feat" but no one else does

Exactly. Canon changes. On the planet my games happen on. He was just a normal guy and is now the saint we all know and love. That’s all that’s really known. And if you asked the locals on that world about the emperors deal with chaos they would be baffled as they haven’t heard of it.

right, the only people who know he was a perpetual are US. what people know isn't always the same thing as what we know. This is doubly important for the heresy as we're looking at novels that have changed quite a bit of what we know, and trying to cludge them into what little we know of what comes next.

trying to declare what WILL happen at the siege of Terra seems pretty futile. for all we know Horus was killed when Abbaddon backstabbed him and the emperor got enthroned due to partying too hard at the victory party.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Subtlety and nuance seem to lost on you. A book can tell you something without saying it overtly. If Erebus and the lodges are in an earlier book, then later on those very same lodges and people are the people who sow the seeds of chaos, it’s a safe bet that the authors intent was to tell you that the sowing of seeds started earlier. If you can’t read between the lines you are literally getting half the story at best.

Nope, if someone is saying that they are conjecturing I can talk on those lines. Yes Erebus did create the lodges before that, but no Astartes were influencing him at all, and he wasn't conjecturing, he was stating that as fact, you have to state your intentions, like 'he was probably being influenced by chaos as soon as he turned warmaster' you would expect this from anyone you argue with, but again you are just another person butthurt because we had an argument, get over it. If you just chopped it up to subtlety and nuance then anyone can say anything they want, even make up something and if someone disagrees they can just say 'nuance'.

No mate it’s you showing the same behaviour yet again. You can’t seem to grasp that something can be clear and evident without being stated in black and white. We are talking about a fictional world! There are no facts. There are just versions of the stories each as valid as the next. I for one prefer the pre black library era fluff so tend to use that. U need to be able to see the story as a whole not a series of novels that happen in a fixed timeline. What you going to do if someone goes and writes a book in the middle of the series and changes things? Quotes won’t win fluff arguments. And trust me, I’m not butthurt at all. I’m perfectly happy, But I will call you out when you are wrong or missing the point. It needs to happen because you behave so arrogantly.

Also! The books are a work of fiction and art. Different people will get different things from them. U can’t tell me the emotions and feelings I get from a picture or the inferences and nuances I get from a book or peice of music are wrong. That’s flawed thinking on your part. Even real history is debatelable let alone made up stories.

Mate I'm not going to argue with you its too frustrating, at least the other people on here can keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Did someone on Dakka change Peregrine’s name to ‘Delvarus Centurion’ without me noticing?

You only have something to say when everyone else does.

<REMOVED - RULE #1 PEOPLE> U keep posting questions and shouting down anyone who disagrees with, especially if they don’t agree with your dogmatic obsession with the lore.

I could quote to you the entire section of the rogue trader book on the emperor. It would tell you that the emperor was a immortal born of normal parents who hid his powers until the 31st millennium where he guided the psychicly awakening human race and crafted the imperium we know. It would tell you how he was so drained by his efforts that he has to sit in a life preserving throne using only his will to protect mankind from the perils of psychic knowledge. Unable to move at all. And that the throne is a life form in itself contstructed by the emperor. Self repairing and evolving. No deal with chaos. No mention of such heresey.
I have chapter approved articles that state there were 20 original space marine “chapters”, not legions! And only 7 of them remain. And the last the last founding was in 738 (m41).

But I can’t be bothered typing it all up. But it shows you at least, that the text you so vehemently extol is, in reality, a transient telling of an ever changing story. There is in effect no lore.

I for one do not subscribe to the idea that pius was a perpetual. He was a normal guardsman who helped save the emperor. I do subscribe to the emperor being the personification of earthly shaman and the star child theory. I believe that if there was a pact with chaos then we will never know the truth of it because anyone discussing it in any book will have good reason to lie and will be unreliable.

This is the beauty of it. It’s a game. It’s made up. Pick the bits you like. Leave the bits you don’t. But don’t tell someone their version is wrong. It can’t be. It’s theirs.

As me not being able to keep up, you haven’t actually set off anywhere mate. U have just sat throwing your toys out of the Pham while many people try to point you in the right direction.

Yeah I think I was the one that called you out on reading comprehension on our debate in another thread lol,

"You are judging them by your standards, its so ridiculous that you are trying to say that you cannot understand the gods but you constantly say what the gods think or what they want. I listed what i 'thought' the order of their knowledge was. Saying who has the most is not quantifying, I'm saying who has the most not measuring their knowledge. How do you know what chaos care about? I didn't say the warp had infrastructure, I said they cared about the infrastructure in the materium during the HH. Otherwise why would they command Horus to take worlds and forge worlds. I do think and know that Chaos don't behave in a way that we do' but that doesn't mean nothing they do is dome in the same way or is similar and or, which is understandable to us. Khorne likes to martial combat, so do humans that's something we have in common which, we can understand, Tzeentch seeks knowledge that's something we have in common and we can understand. The gods are created from our emotions. Inviting people to be told their wrong, nonsense, I always end up doing that in all my threads because people are always getting the lore wrong. no they aren't, I back up all my points with the lore quotes or facts, I rarely have conversation where I don't, in this case its subjective though No you've missed the point of the Heresy, your knowledge of the lore is poor. They do have physical rules binding them, they can literally be binded, they cannot survive for ling in the materium, they can be banished, they can only take our souls if we bargain them. They cannot come into our universe any time they want, the Emperor battles them in the warp, so not everything is possible in the warp, daemons cannot go in the presence of the astronomicon, the gods cannot go into the other gods realms. The heresy was not planned and schemed up by tzeentch it was a collective plan, Eugene Temba was possessed by Nurgle, Khorne tried to turn Sanguinius etc. No where in the lore does it say Tzeentch planed it. You have terrible reading comprehension, the gods did need for things to be shifted from one place to the other in the MATERIUM during the HORUS HERESY. Yes I only ever said that infrastructure mattered in the materium or eye of terror, my original point is that they CARE about those infrastructures in the MATERIUM, jesus

"(why people keep doing that...) Listen I'm not debating you because you are seriously dense.


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BrianDavion wrote:
rogue trader and second edition are not part of the current "lore cannon" Andy, utterly silly bringing them in. especially when it's a poor argument. right now we do not have eneugh evidance to say what happened. we can say what "the evidance suggests" but frankly until the HH series is finished there are some things I caution about taking as gospel because a lot of our sources here are from people whom are well.. dishonest

HH quotes are gospel if they haven't been contradicted by new fluff. Dishonest, I love this more accusations, but its hard to take them seriously when 'no one' out of the whole lot of you can quote me at least once being dishonest ot all the other accusations, I can quote a whole list of people here getting the lore wrong though lol All I asked was what did the Emperor lose in taking the deal with chaos. People brought up other lore that I disagreed with.

"or thats what Horus says, presumably chaos told him that so we can't take that as gospel. I'm honestly half expecting the HH series to end with a suprise revelation that suggests there are things at work here we didn't know about."

Like what you said^ which isn't true because Sureka is the one telling the story and she is a non-biased servant of the Emperor. See what I mean and then you all start invoking 'subtlety and nuance' You have Chaos saying it happened and a servant of the Emperor, its really not rocket science. This isn't some vague tentative grip on the lore that I'm using to try and prove you wrong lol But this is what you people do, and then you all band together because it makes you feel better about yourselves. You say you can't take lore as gospel but in every other argument on these threads you use it as gospel to prove other people wrong. Show me the dishonesty lol I tell you that you are wrong, you tell me you can't take HH as gospel, can you not see how ridiculous you're being."John Grammaticus met the Cabal' - 'You can't take that as gospel because he could be lying.' this is how ridiculous you all sound to me. The fact is the lore says this happened, unless some other lore is written that says Sureka is lying or is an impostor then we have to rely on the lore we have and the lore we have here is pretty explicit. I'm not interested in 'this might be a lie' as there is no evidence to suggest that, if you want to have an argument about whether its true or not that's fine but I'm not interested in that because then everything in the lore is subject to 'is that true', 'did the Horus heresy actually happen or is it just the Emperors dream.' lol Seriously though read the book, or read it again if you've forgotten, there is no 'did this really happen' expressed or implied, you are just evoking that because you don't like being told you are wrong about a piece of lore. This being a lie ect. has no evidence to back it up, it is purely your subjective opinion, maybe you are just saying that not to be wrong about the lore or you don't like the idea of the Emperor taking powers from the gods, but its either one of those.

I just ultimately think that we can't count on Molech being what it seems to be. most of our information on it is eaither conjecture or from chaos itself, and frankly I'm not sure how reliable I find that., IMHO ANY info on the Emperor these days needs to be presented with a giant "this is our best guess based on what we see, but it could be completely wrong" astirix beside it. as it is, we can't be sure the emperor is a perpetual. we can't even be sure the emperor is really the actual emepror (more and more I wonder if he's some sort of psykic contruct of Malcador)

BrianDavion wrote:
I just ultimately think that we can't count on Molech being what it seems to be. most of our information on it is eaither conjecture or from chaos itself, and frankly I'm not sure how reliable I find that., IMHO ANY info on the Emperor these days needs to be presented with a giant "this is our best guess based on what we see, but it could be completely wrong" astirix beside it. as it is, we can't be sure the emperor is a perpetual. we can't even be sure the emperor is really the actual emepror (more and more I wonder if he's some sort of psykic contruct of Malcador)

Its not conjecture, its the testimony of the eye witness Sureka and conjecture on Erebus and Horus' part, which is corroborated by Sureka's testimony. Plus the lore has been developed around this, with Erebus it was conjecture then this came out adding facts to the lore. If it was supposed to be conjecture, It would be written as such.

"IMHO ANY info on the Emperor these days needs to be presented with a giant "this is our best guess based on what we see, but it could be completely wrong" Not at all, we 'know' he fought Horus, we know he is sitting on the golden throne etc.