Nope, those pictures of yours tell enough about the lay of the land to say it's not enough. I get that large tournaments have to supply a lot of tables, but given how cheap it is to make good terrain from insulation foam, filler and bits, it really isn't an excuse if one wants to say terrain should matter with a straight face.
Cheap? insulation foam is only sold in palets and it costs over 10$ for one pack.
LoL. You know what we do in my WH/WH40k circles when someone bitches about the price of something? We point out that they play GW games....
Amishprn86 wrote: And $10 for 1 6x4 will do a full table of terrain. Its like that so costly or something....
Or the fact that building terrain for 300+ tables also requires a huge amount of time and they are not an army of people and they all have lives and if you do a gakky job with terrain then you end up like an other infamous tournament that happened last year that everyone was hating on and jesus this is a long as run on sentence. Point being if all of this is so easy I am sure they would love some volunteers to help out!
Everyone understands it takes time to build terrain. That isn't an excuse, that is a basic thing the organizers should account for. The previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not, but the crux of the issue is still the same: their choice of terrain given makes for inferior games, it would be nice of them to fix that. Maybe it takes money, maybe it takes time, still a thing that should happen for the greater good of the game and community.
I can't really comment on how lots of terrain affects the "tactical nature" of a game, but I can say that from any of the pictures I saw, the tables certainly looked quite boring. I also had a quick look at the top 8 armies, and although I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Castellans and guards winning the competition overall, the lack of diversity in the top 8 was really disappointing, and not a reflection at all of the many diverse factions that 40k has to offer. A lay person looking at those armies might be forgiven for thinking that "Warhammer 40,000 is a futuristic game where humans use giant mecha to fight magical space elves," without any recognition for "genetically enhanced super soldiers, endless, chittering swarms of giant insects, rampaging hordes of bloodthirsty space goblins, legions of soulless, unrelenting, skeletal robots, nightmarish daemons from hell itself," and... well, whatever Tau are.
Amishprn86 wrote: And $10 for 1 6x4 will do a full table of terrain. Its like that so costly or something....
I get around 12$ per month and 7$ of it goes for a bus pass, so something costing 10$ or more, because they sell them at store only in big quad packs is a lot of money to me. Plus this is just material, am sure you need tools and the knowladge to use it, any busted tile is 5-10$ down the drain.
Amishprn86 wrote: And $10 for 1 6x4 will do a full table of terrain. Its like that so costly or something....
I get around 12$ per month and 7$ of it goes for a bus pass, so something costing 10$ or more, because they sell them at store only in big quad packs is a lot of money to me. Plus this is just material, am sure you need tools and the knowladge to use it, any busted tile is 5-10$ down the drain.
I seriously doubt anyone is asking you personally to foot the terrain bill for Frontline Gaming.
Sherrypie wrote: Everyone understands it takes time to build terrain. That isn't an excuse, that is a basic thing the organizers should account for. The previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not, but the crux of the issue is still the same: their choice of terrain given makes for inferior games, it would be nice of them to fix that. Maybe it takes money, maybe it takes time, still a thing that should happen for the greater good of the game and community.
I think they did great job, maybe trolling most of the old terrain was mistake, because they did not manage to put the some amount of terrain like the previous years, but it was more than enough to have decent games.
They asked multiple times people to help them build more terrain and it seem they worked super hard. I`m sure they did not spare time or money for doing it.
The tournament was amassing and i`m sure they will do even better in the next editions.
Sherrypie wrote: Everyone understands it takes time to build terrain. That isn't an excuse, that is a basic thing the organizers should account for. The previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not, but the crux of the issue is still the same: their choice of terrain given makes for inferior games, it would be nice of them to fix that. Maybe it takes money, maybe it takes time, still a thing that should happen for the greater good of the game and community.
I was going to try arguing with you but in the end its not worth it. You are clearly have a solid grasp on the reality of running something this large and I look forward to hearing about the 700+ player events you are going to run in the future. Its going to be the most amazing event ever because you got this on lockdown!
Sherrypie wrote: Everyone understands it takes time to build terrain. That isn't an excuse, that is a basic thing the organizers should account for. The previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not, but the crux of the issue is still the same: their choice of terrain given makes for inferior games, it would be nice of them to fix that. Maybe it takes money, maybe it takes time, still a thing that should happen for the greater good of the game and community.
I was going to try arguing with you but in the end its not worth it. You are clearly have a solid grasp on the reality of running something this large and I look forward to hearing about the 700+ player events you are going to run in the future. Its going to be the most amazing event ever because you got this on lockdown!
Yeah, seriously.
"Greater good of the game and community" - it's just code for trashing TOs. Creeps me out every time someone utters this phrase.
I think TOs get too much credit, honestly. They know that bad terrain hurts the game, and rely on excuses to say why they can't do it. Then don't fething run a huge tournament if you can't properly fill the tables, as easy as that.
Don't half-ass it and use the excuse of "oh we are trying to fill 200 tables". Maybe don't run a huge tournament if you're going to half-ass the terrain and as a result, skew the game? Instead they do a half-ass job and everyone kisses their ass for doing "such a great job" running it with so many people.
Sherrypie wrote: Everyone understands it takes time to build terrain. That isn't an excuse, that is a basic thing the organizers should account for. The previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not, but the crux of the issue is still the same: their choice of terrain given makes for inferior games, it would be nice of them to fix that. Maybe it takes money, maybe it takes time, still a thing that should happen for the greater good of the game and community.
I was going to try arguing with you but in the end its not worth it. You are clearly have a solid grasp on the reality of running something this large and I look forward to hearing about the 700+ player events you are going to run in the future. Its going to be the most amazing event ever because you got this on lockdown!
Aren't you chipper today.
I understand very well that it takes time and money to organize large events. I do dabble with events in other hobbies that encompass thousands of people, thank you very much. I'm not blaming them for anything, they do what they can and want. What is being said though is that if they'd wanted the event to use more terrain, then they'd have done so by planning for that, which includes finding time to make or get enough terrain. Unless someone knows better and it has been stated that the organizers were in a rush and had to go with less than they'd liked, I'll have to believe they did as tournaments usually do and used less terrain than I personally find is healthy for the game.
Seeing this event is on a "large enough" scale that there has to be a large number of people behind it anyway, instead of it being like your run of the mill club tournament with small resources and spaces, it is a thing one can plan for. If you want to argue something, how about the amount of terrain you see fit for an interesting "default" game of 40k and then musing about the amount used in tournaments from that basis? Personally I don't see much interest in sparse tables (unless for narrative reasons in a campaign etc.), since they do not promote interesting tactical play besides target priority unlike more stacked tables, that are often better representatives of real world skirmishing fire fights on the scale that 40k operates anyway. Large tournaments do have an impact on a large portion of the player base and would in my opinion present a more interesting show, too, if they presented more tactically challenging table layouts and fronted those harder. If the current norm for terrain is lacking and shines through in many internet debates, wouldn't it be better if large and visible tournees like LVO went on to shift that norm towards more interesting setups?
Of course it takes hours of work to do that, I just personally feel it's an investment that should be done for the benefit of the game.
Edit: techsoldaten, if you necessarily want to read it that way. I'm not saying anything about TO's being bad at their job, but I do feel they are making decisions that often promote a sort of game I don't find to be the best they could offer by running a bit thin on terrain. I don't think asking better on that front is unreasonable or confrontational.
IG definitely are the gunline that craps all over the "you're just not using enough terrain lolz" argument. More terrain makes them infinitely stronger because it just increases the odds that you won't be able to hit them and they will be able to hit you with all their LOS ignoring nonsense.
This is assuming the bulk of IG firepower is invested in artillery units, which generally is not the case. If the IG player isnt running an artillery parking lot, they're gonna have to deal with it like everyone else, and artillery parking lot lists have weaknesses of their own. The undercosted Tank Commanders certainly care about LoS.
Competitive IG lists do not typically invest most of their points into infantry squads, basilisks, and mortars?
Amishprn86 wrote: And $10 for 1 6x4 will do a full table of terrain. Its like that so costly or something....
I get around 12$ per month and 7$ of it goes for a bus pass, so something costing 10$ or more, because they sell them at store only in big quad packs is a lot of money to me. Plus this is just material, am sure you need tools and the knowladge to use it, any busted tile is 5-10$ down the drain.
I am afraid to say that 12$ per month is not the typical income of a human being in a country where GW is a hobby.
Wayniac wrote: I think TOs get too much credit, honestly. They know that bad terrain hurts the game, and rely on excuses to say why they can't do it. Then don't fething run a huge tournament if you can't properly fill the tables, as easy as that.
Don't half-ass it and use the excuse of "oh we are trying to fill 200 tables". Maybe don't run a huge tournament if you're going to half-ass the terrain and as a result, skew the game? Instead they do a half-ass job and everyone kisses their ass for doing "such a great job" running it with so many people.
See, I feel the opposite.
People who care enough to take the time to organize tournaments have a rare combination of skills, patience and charm. The time the spend putting on events is rarely worth it by any measure, and they face a lot of criticism before and after the event as a reward. They are just amazing human beings who are fun to be around and this hobby thrives because of their efforts.
Their critics are mostly just negative people who excel at trash talk. They rarely do anything for others and delight in attacking those who do. They oversimplify logistical / organizational challenges to the point of malice even though they completely lack a frame of reference from which to judge.
"Critics" are a far bigger issue than terrain. I would be ecstatic if TOs aggressively banned them from all tournaments. This act would raise the quality of the participation pool by several orders of magnitude.
I'd be okay with putting shredded Amazon boxes and rolls of toilet paper on tournament tables if I knew I didn't have to hear someone bad-mouthing the TOs afterwards. I'd pay double to go to an event where the TO was taking a strong stand against these miserable, talentless, self-centered jerks demanding each table looks like something out of White Dwarf. If there was a way for TOs to share information and ensure these people were kept out of the entire circuit, I would probably volunteer because I knew I was doing something to help a group that actually appreciates the effort that goes into putting on an event.
Wayniac wrote: I think TOs get too much credit, honestly. They know that bad terrain hurts the game, and rely on excuses to say why they can't do it. Then don't fething run a huge tournament if you can't properly fill the tables, as easy as that.
Don't half-ass it and use the excuse of "oh we are trying to fill 200 tables". Maybe don't run a huge tournament if you're going to half-ass the terrain and as a result, skew the game? Instead they do a half-ass job and everyone kisses their ass for doing "such a great job" running it with so many people.
See, I feel the opposite.
People who care enough to take the time to organize tournaments have a rare combination of skills, patience and charm. The time the spend putting on events is rarely worth it by any measure, and they face a lot of criticism before and after the event as a reward. They are just amazing human beings who are fun to be around and this hobby thrives because of their efforts.
Their critics are mostly just negative people who excel at trash talk. They rarely do anything for others and delight in attacking those who do. They oversimplify logistical / organizational challenges to the point of malice even though they completely lack a frame of reference from which to judge.
"Critics" are a far bigger issue than terrain. I would be ecstatic if TOs aggressively banned them from all tournaments. This act would raise the quality of the participation pool by several orders of magnitude.
I'd be okay with putting shredded Amazon boxes and rolls of toilet paper on tournament tables if I knew I didn't have to hear someone bad-mouthing the TOs afterwards. I'd pay double to go to an event where the TO was taking a strong stand against these miserable, talentless, self-centered jerks demanding each table looks like something out of White Dwarf. If there was a way for TOs to share information and ensure these people were kept out of the entire circuit, I would probably volunteer because I knew I was doing something to help a group that actually appreciates the effort that goes into putting on an event.
That is a bit excessive, though. Pointing out inadequacies in a reasonable manner is not attacking or trashing anyone and you know that as well. I'm on board with you against people who do act like jerks, though, but consider this: if one feels terrain should play a major role in the game, do you think these tables supports that notion?
(pics from Unstable Dice FB.)
Their quality is excellent and what I've heard of LVO as a whole is very positive. Those tables though, they seem very empty and one dimensional (especially so since they lack scatter terrain). Is that bad-mouthing someone if I say I don't find them too interesting GAMEWISE and feel both those attending and watching would have better time if there was more to the "third army" than some binary LoS-blocks?
2 cliffs
3 large buildings
2 medium buildings
2 area cover
3 other pieces of terrain
Multiple by 330
660 cliffs
990 large buildings
660 medium buildings
660 area cover
990 other
That's just about 4,000 pieces of terrain. If each (being exceedingly generous) costs an average of $5 to make and take one hour that's $20,000 and 500 8 hours days of work.
Wayniac wrote: I think TOs get too much credit, honestly. They know that bad terrain hurts the game, and rely on excuses to say why they can't do it. Then don't fething run a huge tournament if you can't properly fill the tables, as easy as that.
Don't half-ass it and use the excuse of "oh we are trying to fill 200 tables". Maybe don't run a huge tournament if you're going to half-ass the terrain and as a result, skew the game? Instead they do a half-ass job and everyone kisses their ass for doing "such a great job" running it with so many people.
See, I feel the opposite.
People who care enough to take the time to organize tournaments have a rare combination of skills, patience and charm. The time the spend putting on events is rarely worth it by any measure, and they face a lot of criticism before and after the event as a reward. They are just amazing human beings who are fun to be around and this hobby thrives because of their efforts.
Their critics are mostly just negative people who excel at trash talk. They rarely do anything for others and delight in attacking those who do. They oversimplify logistical / organizational challenges to the point of malice even though they completely lack a frame of reference from which to judge.
"Critics" are a far bigger issue than terrain. I would be ecstatic if TOs aggressively banned them from all tournaments. This act would raise the quality of the participation pool by several orders of magnitude.
I'd be okay with putting shredded Amazon boxes and rolls of toilet paper on tournament tables if I knew I didn't have to hear someone bad-mouthing the TOs afterwards. I'd pay double to go to an event where the TO was taking a strong stand against these miserable, talentless, self-centered jerks demanding each table looks like something out of White Dwarf. If there was a way for TOs to share information and ensure these people were kept out of the entire circuit, I would probably volunteer because I knew I was doing something to help a group that actually appreciates the effort that goes into putting on an event.
That is a bit excessive, though. Pointing out inadequacies in a reasonable manner is not attacking or trashing anyone and you know that as well. I'm on board with you against people who do act like jerks, though, but consider this: if one feels terrain should play a major role in the game, do you think these tables supports that notion?
Spoiler:
Excessive implies insincerity. My perspective is stated honestly and clearly.
People who say the TOs did the job "half-assed" or calls the work of a mostly volunteer force a "travesty" are the problem. Justifying such comments with "the greater good of the game and community" is really just cover for attacks on the efforts of creative, intelligent people trying to put on a good event.
I would never want to be in a community with people capable of such nastiness towards fellow hobbists. Can't understand why others choose to accept these people and believe TOs are being too nice by allowing them to participate.
That terrain looks fine. Not great, but fine. I would be willing to accept much less in exchange for a better pool of participants.
Sherrypie wrote: Their quality is excellent and what I've heard of LVO as a whole is very positive. Those tables though, they seem very empty and one dimensional (especially so since they lack scatter terrain). Is that bad-mouthing someone if I say I don't find them too interesting GAMEWISE and feel both those attending and watching would have better time if there was more to the "third army" than some binary LoS-blocks?
Yes. Mostly because complaints have not been about the terrain but about the efforts of organizers and the claims that their efforts (or lack of) somehow dimish the game.
It's pretty sick, attacking the work of unpaid volunteers working for the enjoyment of a group of hobbists. It's kind of like telling someone their army's paint job sucks, only you're saying it to dozens of people at the same time. If you were part of my FLGS and said something like that, you would be made to leave and never come back.
There's a big difference between constructive criticism and spitting on the work of others. This has nothing to do with your expectations of quality and everything to do with the nature of the hobby. Sorry someone did not meet your expectations, that's no reason to attack them personally or as a group. Stop trying to pretend this is about your personal preferences.
2 cliffs
3 large buildings
2 medium buildings
2 area cover
3 other pieces of terrain
Multiple by 330
660 cliffs
990 large buildings
660 medium buildings
660 area cover
990 other
That's just about 4,000 pieces of terrain. If each (being exceedingly generous) costs an average of $5 to make and take one hour that's $20,000 and 500 8 hours days of work.
While we're talking context...
A, How many people entered the LVO this year?
B, How much did they pay to enter?
C, How many years is it reasonable to assume you can use this set of terrain for before you need to replace it? I'd assume more that a single event, but...
2 cliffs
3 large buildings
2 medium buildings
2 area cover
3 other pieces of terrain
Multiple by 330
660 cliffs
990 large buildings
660 medium buildings
660 area cover
990 other
That's just about 4,000 pieces of terrain. If each (being exceedingly generous) costs an average of $5 to make and take one hour that's $20,000 and 500 8 hours days of work.
While we're talking context...
A, How many people entered the LVO this year?
B, How much did they pay to enter?
C, How many years is it reasonable to assume you can use this set of terrain for before you need to replace it? I'd assume more that a single event, but...
That terrain is perfectly functional and uniform across all tables. It offers both sides the same benefits and disadvantages. It's about the level of quality one could expect to see mass-produced by a group of hobbyists.
2 cliffs
3 large buildings
2 medium buildings
2 area cover
3 other pieces of terrain
Multiple by 330
660 cliffs
990 large buildings
660 medium buildings
660 area cover
990 other
That's just about 4,000 pieces of terrain. If each (being exceedingly generous) costs an average of $5 to make and take one hour that's $20,000 and 500 8 hours days of work.
While we're talking context...
A, How many people entered the LVO this year?
B, How much did they pay to enter?
C, How many years is it reasonable to assume you can use this set of terrain for before you need to replace it? I'd assume more that a single event, but...
660 - the 40K ticket covers the tournament venue only and was $80 iirc. 660 entered. So, ~$53,000. A Vegas venue 3 day weekend buyout that has room, tables, chairs, A/V, and internet for 660 people will likely exceed $15,000. Then you have to consider the hefty number of hours put into planning, organizing, communicating, and so on.
Amishprn86 wrote: And $10 for 1 6x4 will do a full table of terrain. Its like that so costly or something....
I get around 12$ per month and 7$ of it goes for a bus pass, so something costing 10$ or more, because they sell them at store only in big quad packs is a lot of money to me. Plus this is just material, am sure you need tools and the knowladge to use it, any busted tile is 5-10$ down the drain.
Luckily the tournament is paying for it and not you..... And are you 12yo? $12 per month? Is that your allowance?
Within the context of the LVO, it was acceptable terrain. I would be fine with it.
If you want it to be different, volunteer and make a difference. If you should to the LVO next year with 350 pieces of terrain, you wish to donate to the effort, I'm sure it will be accepted.
2 cliffs
3 large buildings
2 medium buildings
2 area cover
3 other pieces of terrain
Multiple by 330
660 cliffs
990 large buildings
660 medium buildings
660 area cover
990 other
That's just about 4,000 pieces of terrain. If each (being exceedingly generous) costs an average of $5 to make and take one hour that's $20,000 and 500 8 hours days of work.
While we're talking context...
A, How many people entered the LVO this year?
B, How much did they pay to enter?
C, How many years is it reasonable to assume you can use this set of terrain for before you need to replace it? I'd assume more that a single event, but...
That terrain is perfectly functional and uniform across all tables. It offers both sides the same benefits and disadvantages. It's about the level of quality one could expect to see mass-produced by a group of hobbyists.
What specifically are you complaining about?
Who said anything about complaining? I'm just looking for additional points of context to go with Daedalus' example scenario, using real-world event numbers as a basis.
2 cliffs
3 large buildings
2 medium buildings
2 area cover
3 other pieces of terrain
Multiple by 330
660 cliffs
990 large buildings
660 medium buildings
660 area cover
990 other
That's just about 4,000 pieces of terrain. If each (being exceedingly generous) costs an average of $5 to make and take one hour that's $20,000 and 500 8 hours days of work.
While we're talking context...
A, How many people entered the LVO this year?
B, How much did they pay to enter?
C, How many years is it reasonable to assume you can use this set of terrain for before you need to replace it? I'd assume more that a single event, but...
660 - the 40K ticket covers the tournament venue only and was $80 iirc. 660 entered. So, ~$53,000. A Vegas venue 3 day weekend buyout that has room, tables, chairs, A/V, and internet for 660 people will likely exceed $15,000. Then you have to consider the hefty number of hours put into planning, organizing, communicating, and so on.
So, post-venue we're talking a theoretical budget of approx. $38k, with various costs associated with it in addition to the cost of the terrain.
This is where the question of how many years you think you can use the terrain for comes into play - if we can get three years out of your terrain set, for example, then we're really only using ~$7k of the budget for each year towards it. Four years, and we're down to $5k, etc.
Didn't someone say that LVO replaced all their terrain this year? Wouldn't it've made more sense to do a phased approach - replace 1/3 of the terrain each year over three years, for example, assuming the old stuff was still serviceable?
IG definitely are the gunline that craps all over the "you're just not using enough terrain lolz" argument. More terrain makes them infinitely stronger because it just increases the odds that you won't be able to hit them and they will be able to hit you with all their LOS ignoring nonsense.
This is assuming the bulk of IG firepower is invested in artillery units, which generally is not the case. If the IG player isnt running an artillery parking lot, they're gonna have to deal with it like everyone else, and artillery parking lot lists have weaknesses of their own. The undercosted Tank Commanders certainly care about LoS.
Competitive IG lists do not typically invest most of their points into infantry squads, basilisks, and mortars?
Looking at the 38 top placing IG lists for 2018 and 2019 available on BoK, not really. What we see usually is the three mortar teams (99pts) to fill out a brigade cheaply (otherwise they're left at home and make no appearance if the IG player isnt running a Brigade), and out of all 38 lists, only two had more than 2 arty vehicles, and the overwhelmingly vast majority had none at all, and I don't think any list had both mortars and arty tanks together. The Infantry Squads are ubiquitous of course, but they also are supposed to be.
So, if we are expecting a couple arty tanks and a trio of infantry mortar squads as typical (at best) in terms of LoS ignoring weapons, adding gobs more LoS blocking terrain isn't going to make these suddenly vastly more powerful, especially if the rest of the list is built around a Castellan, Hellhounds, a Shadowsword, Tank Commanders, etc. The biggest impact is likely to be the increased survivability of the allied detachments of custodes or blood angels.
Wayniac wrote: I think TOs get too much credit, honestly. They know that bad terrain hurts the game, and rely on excuses to say why they can't do it. Then don't fething run a huge tournament if you can't properly fill the tables, as easy as that.
Don't half-ass it and use the excuse of "oh we are trying to fill 200 tables". Maybe don't run a huge tournament if you're going to half-ass the terrain and as a result, skew the game? Instead they do a half-ass job and everyone kisses their ass for doing "such a great job" running it with so many people.
See, I feel the opposite.
People who care enough to take the time to organize tournaments have a rare combination of skills, patience and charm. The time the spend putting on events is rarely worth it by any measure, and they face a lot of criticism before and after the event as a reward. They are just amazing human beings who are fun to be around and this hobby thrives because of their efforts.
Their critics are mostly just negative people who excel at trash talk. They rarely do anything for others and delight in attacking those who do. They oversimplify logistical / organizational challenges to the point of malice even though they completely lack a frame of reference from which to judge.
"Critics" are a far bigger issue than terrain. I would be ecstatic if TOs aggressively banned them from all tournaments. This act would raise the quality of the participation pool by several orders of magnitude.
I'd be okay with putting shredded Amazon boxes and rolls of toilet paper on tournament tables if I knew I didn't have to hear someone bad-mouthing the TOs afterwards. I'd pay double to go to an event where the TO was taking a strong stand against these miserable, talentless, self-centered jerks demanding each table looks like something out of White Dwarf. If there was a way for TOs to share information and ensure these people were kept out of the entire circuit, I would probably volunteer because I knew I was doing something to help a group that actually appreciates the effort that goes into putting on an event.
That is a bit excessive, though. Pointing out inadequacies in a reasonable manner is not attacking or trashing anyone and you know that as well. I'm on board with you against people who do act like jerks, though, but consider this: if one feels terrain should play a major role in the game, do you think these tables supports that notion?
Spoiler:
Excessive implies insincerity. My perspective is stated honestly and clearly.
People who say the TOs did the job "half-assed" or calls the work of a mostly volunteer force a "travesty" are the problem. Justifying such comments with "the greater good of the game and community" is really just cover for attacks on the efforts of creative, intelligent people trying to put on a good event.
I would never want to be in a community with people capable of such nastiness towards fellow hobbists. Can't understand why others choose to accept these people and believe TOs are being too nice by allowing them to participate.
That terrain looks fine. Not great, but fine. I would be willing to accept much less in exchange for a better pool of participants.
Sherrypie wrote: Their quality is excellent and what I've heard of LVO as a whole is very positive. Those tables though, they seem very empty and one dimensional (especially so since they lack scatter terrain). Is that bad-mouthing someone if I say I don't find them too interesting GAMEWISE and feel both those attending and watching would have better time if there was more to the "third army" than some binary LoS-blocks?
Yes. Mostly because complaints have not been about the terrain but about the efforts of organizers and the claims that their efforts (or lack of) somehow dimish the game.
It's pretty sick, attacking the work of unpaid volunteers working for the enjoyment of a group of hobbists. It's kind of like telling someone their army's paint job sucks, only you're saying it to dozens of people at the same time. If you were part of my FLGS and said something like that, you would be made to leave and never come back.
There's a big difference between constructive criticism and spitting on the work of others. This has nothing to do with your expectations of quality and everything to do with the nature of the hobby. Sorry someone did not meet your expectations, that's no reason to attack them personally or as a group. Stop trying to pretend this is about your personal preferences.
I see, you might have misread me a bit. While I agree that Wayniac spoke pretty harshly, my first comment on things being half-assed referred to previous year's event (at London, if I recall correctly?) that had large issues with playing space and barely painted blocks of terrain without any detailing in them, that was in the very meaning of the words, rushed and half-assed. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough when I said "the previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not", meaning that LVO was indeed not a travesty, more like a missed opportunity. I'm not calling LVO's TO's half-assing anything, okay? On the contrary, I like the quality of LVO's works, just saying I'd prefer there to be more of it to make the games more interesting.
Does this clear the intention for you, techsoldaten? I love and appreciate volunteer work and the creative side of the hobby those organizers help to build with their efforts. I'm not attacking them, merely commenting that if they could provide more terrain, they could facilitate better games and as a large and visible event in the scene foster an atmosphere where people in general would be more amenable to the idea that sparse tables might not necessarily be the norm to strive for.
If this still sounds like a personal attack, I do not know what to tell you.
Sherrypie wrote: I see, you might have misread me a bit. While I agree that Wayniac spoke pretty harshly, my first comment on things being half-assed referred to previous year's event (at London, if I recall correctly?) that had large issues with playing space and barely painted blocks of terrain without any detailing in them, that was in the very meaning of the words, rushed and half-assed. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough when I said "the previous situation with half-assed and rushed blocks was a travesty and LVO was not", meaning that LVO was indeed not a travesty, more like a missed opportunity. I'm not calling LVO's TO's half-assing anything, okay? On the contrary, I like the quality of LVO's works, just saying I'd prefer there to be more of it to make the games more interesting.
Does this clear the intention for you, techsoldaten? I love and appreciate volunteer work and the creative side of the hobby those organizers help to build with their efforts. I'm not attacking them, merely commenting that if they could provide more terrain, they could facilitate better games and as a large and visible event in the scene foster an atmosphere where people in general would be more amenable to the idea that sparse tables might not necessarily be the norm to strive for.
If this still sounds like a personal attack, I do not know what to tell you.
Oh, I think I see now. Your first name wouldn't happen to be Dindu, would it?
My only loss came from a game against Tau where I had no way to block LOS in a meaningful way. The tables pictured above were not as sparse as some of the other tables.
I'm not complaining, but just telling it how it is. So-cal had much more terrain.
But this also highlights why Guard and Ynarri are so good. It doesn't matter what the terrain looks like. They have the upper hand.
I didn't say I understood your points, I said I see what's going on. Dindu Nuffin is a name for people who can't (or won't) admit a problem with their behavior.
You called the work of the LVOTOs a travesty and said it needs to be corrected for the "greater good of the game and community." Then you put up some shady posts after being called out for it, asking some pretty manipulative questions trying to get me to say I was going overboard in my distaste for your comments.
Community is a funny word, it implies shared values across a set of people. Likewise, it implies certain behaviors are unacceptable. Your posts make a big assumption about the nature of the community and the values shared by players.
The 40k hobbyist community I belong to favors a DIY spirit, personal expressions of creativity, mutual respect between members, and a shared love of the game. While there are some members of the community who are extremely gifted in various aspects of the hobby (playing the game / painting / modelling / etc,) we recognize that we all bring a different set of skills and have different thresholds regarding quality of execution. As long as someone tries, we look at that favorably; if someone wants to talk trash about other people's work, that's a big problem.
Let's say you came to my FLGS for a tournament and said the same thing about the terrain (which is all the work of volunteers.) You would get a Bagging for saying that about other hobbyists.
A Bagging means you would be told to put away your toys and get out of the store. One of us would take a slow walk to the back to get a trash bag, which takes about 2 minutes. You would have that time to pack your army, but you'd probably waste most of it arguing you didn't do nothing wrong, we don't own the store, we are going to need to get the cops to make you leave, etc. When someone gets back with the bag, we would scrape your toys into it, toss the bag in the street and watch you chase them. We'd get a picture of your face to add to the Dindu board, to make sure everyone knows you are not welcome. We'd laugh when you call the cops to complain we broke your toys. Even the people who were not there to see it happen would make jokes about it for years, you'd get an awful nickname that would be commemorated on the bathroom wall. I'd name a model in my army after you, one that dies often, and it would be better than a distraction Carnifex because everyone would treat it as a mission to destroy it.
That's how my FLGS community operates, and I see that as the right and proper response to those who want to dump on the work of creative types. The online community seems to have the same values, it's just less effective at enforcing them. In that sense, the best possible action TOs could take is banning you and others with that same passive-aggressive negativity.
I'm feel bad you can't see why spitting on the work of several dozen volunteers is a bad thing, or that you believe some big speech is going to change what you said to mean something else. But there are a hundred ways you could have expressed your concerns, you chose to talk malfeasance, and that's incompatible with the values of any community that values creativity and individual expression. I didn't see an apology in to the LVO people in all those posts of yours, so I assume you are sincere in your beliefs that volunteers making terrain for tournaments have to live up to your standards or be trash-talked on major forums. It's wrong, and I hope in time you will see that.
But the greater good of the game and community is not served by better terrain, it's served by getting rid of the trash. Could care less about terrain, give me toilet paper rolls and shredded cardboard over bad actors any day.
I see. It is unfortunate you are that quick to judge instead of discussing things out like reasonable adults. I've neither said LVO to be a travesty nor belittled their work, which I see as high quality effort, besides saying I'd prefer more varied tables as I believe those would improve the game for a larger group than merely those who attend the event. I have nothing to apologize for if you read what has actually been said and refrain from putting words in people's mouths ("spitting on their work", really?). Since you argue further in bad faith and resort to childish displays of intimidation, it is better to end it here. Good day to you.
I see. It is unfortunate you are that quick to judge instead of discussing things out like reasonable adults. I've neither said LVO to be a travesty nor belittled their work, which I see as high quality effort, besides saying I'd prefer more varied tables as I believe those would improve the game for a larger group than merely those who attend the event. I have nothing to apologize for if you read what has actually been said and refrain from putting words in people's mouths ("spitting on their work", really?). Since you argue further in bad faith and resort to childish displays of intimidation, it is better to end it here. Good day to you.
Egg crates would be good too. Or Popsicle sticks. Old sprue and index cards.
For two people having a vicious argument in a public thread for pages, you two are incredibly well spoken and polite.
Might I suggest you both back out of this thread for a day? You two both seem like good folk who'd typically get along. And neither of you seem to be looking for a flamewar.
The direct conversation, unfortunately, has nowhere to go but down. Rarely do such conversations work out in the end, even between reasonable people.
Bharring wrote: For two people having a vicious argument in a public thread for pages, you two are incredibly well spoken and polite.
Might I suggest you both back out of this thread for a day? You two both seem like good folk who'd typically get along. And neither of you seem to be looking for a flamewar.
The direct conversation, unfortunately, has nowhere to go but down. Rarely do such conversations work out in the end, even between reasonable people.
That's very generous of you to say. I appreciate you for it.
But let's look at the constructive aspects of the conversation. This has been a productive discussion about the expectations around major tournaments.
I'd gladly trade the quality of terrain for an end to the accusations of laziness and ineptitude on the part of TOs. If it meant a stop to the attacks, I'd go so far as balled up shrink wrap, xeroxed cut-outs taped to tables, rusty buckets and Styrofoam cups (so long as someone drew double-headed eagles on them with a fat-tipped Sharpie - that's where I draw the line and I wouldn't accept less if you paid me.)
If this is a community, the people who take the time to nourish it should be treated better. Constructive comments have a place, but dumping on the creative efforts of a volunteer group is bad form.
Looking on that constructive side, and as an olive branch towards techsoldaten, I agree that people who do lots of work to build communities should be appreciated for their efforts. In that sense it is quite interesting that GW has begun their "Warhammer Heroes" thing, for that exact purpose of highlighting folks who toil to make the hobby better for lots of others. Haven't seen any locally relevant names on those lists, but as those are community-driven mentions, they might be more interesting for those who live in US or UK. Maybe?
Something I would like to know though is what's with the need for big numbers? If you can't build enough terrain for big numbers at once why not hold smaller tournaments until you have enough terrain to run bigger one?
Though at least LVO is far cry from London GT where there were literally unpainted styrox walls for terrain! That has got to be lowpoint for big tournament terrain...LVO at least seems to have all painted even if it's sparsish and one dimensional and far from my preference(I will not play in such symmetric boards for one).
To be honest I don't see a problem with the terrain in those tables.
I mean, they could have a little more of area cover and scatter terrain but in the mayority of games thats more for the looks than for the battlefield impact.
And I say this when the store I play has so much terrain that last month tournament my last enemy did hide 3 Imperial Knights (One of them a Castellan) from my full Tau army with deployment (The central LOS blocking terrain piece was a fething 70cm of height cathedral), and in most tables moving transport is nearly impossible because theres so much ruins and fences and buildings
tneva82 wrote: Something I would like to know though is what's with the need for big numbers? If you can't build enough terrain for big numbers at once why not hold smaller tournaments until you have enough terrain to run bigger one?
Though at least LVO is far cry from London GT where there were literally unpainted styrox walls for terrain! That has got to be lowpoint for big tournament terrain...LVO at least seems to have all painted even if it's sparsish and one dimensional and far from my preference(I will not play in such symmetric boards for one).
Everyone wants to be the biggest. And if there is a demand for it why not. From pics ive seen terrain seems fine. The draws are random so if you go to a tournament you have to be prepared for a variety (or lack of) terrain.
As for not playing on symmetric boards, can I asked why not? I usually only try to play on symmetric terrain simply because I feel its fairer. This is set up before we pick sides. That way there can be no complaints.
As for one dimensional, its a competitive tournament. You need terrain to block line of sight, perhaps have multi levels, provide cover etc. LVO terrain does all that. Why the heck do you need scatter terrain. Go to a GW store if you want them feels?
techsoldaten wrote:
Let's say you came to my FLGS for a tournament and said the same thing about the terrain (which is all the work of volunteers.) You would get a Bagging for saying that about other hobbyists.
A Bagging means you would be told to put away your toys and get out of the store. One of us would take a slow walk to the back to get a trash bag, which takes about 2 minutes. You would have that time to pack your army, but you'd probably waste most of it arguing you didn't do nothing wrong, we don't own the store, we are going to need to get the cops to make you leave, etc. When someone gets back with the bag, we would scrape your toys into it, toss the bag in the street and watch you chase them. We'd get a picture of your face to add to the Dindu board, to make sure everyone knows you are not welcome. We'd laugh when you call the cops to complain we broke your toys. Even the people who were not there to see it happen would make jokes about it for years, you'd get an awful nickname that would be commemorated on the bathroom wall. I'd name a model in my army after you, one that dies often, and it would be better than a distraction Carnifex because everyone would treat it as a mission to destroy it.
That's how my FLGS community operates, and I see that as the right and proper response to those who want to dump on the work of creative types. The online community seems to have the same values, it's just less effective at enforcing them. In that sense, the best possible action TOs could take is banning you and others with that same passive-aggressive negativity.
Holy crap that's horrifying, you would throw their models into a bag and throw it physically out onto the street? That sounds like a much worse thing to do with disagreeing with someone, surely getting them to leave without breaking or handling any of their property without permission is the much nicer way to behave as a community?
Martel732 wrote: Drukhari are fast and typically suffer no movement penalties. This means they can clear LoS blockers and alpha strike slower armies that take penalties when they move like marines.
Most drukhari I face use the ignore cover coven as we have phased in more and more terrain. It's not helping as Dakka predicted. No, they are still using skimmers. Ignore cover splinter is really good.
Ignore Cover doesn't ignore Obscured, and even then they still need LoS. If you have enough terrain to completely block LoS over large portions of the board things get more interesting.
Martel732 wrote: Drukhari are fast and typically suffer no movement penalties. This means they can clear LoS blockers and alpha strike slower armies that take penalties when they move like marines.
Most drukhari I face use the ignore cover coven as we have phased in more and more terrain. It's not helping as Dakka predicted. No, they are still using skimmers. Ignore cover splinter is really good.
Ignore Cover doesn't ignore Obscured, and even then they still need LoS. If you have enough terrain to completely block LoS over large portions of the board things get more interesting.
what do you mean it doesn't ignore Obscured?
Just being partially obscured doesn't do anything in 8th edition. Its only relevant for claiming cover saves as non-infantry while also being inside terrain. Which 'ignore cover' would then ignore.
Martel732 wrote: Drukhari are fast and typically suffer no movement penalties. This means they can clear LoS blockers and alpha strike slower armies that take penalties when they move like marines.
Most drukhari I face use the ignore cover coven as we have phased in more and more terrain. It's not helping as Dakka predicted. No, they are still using skimmers. Ignore cover splinter is really good.
Ignore Cover doesn't ignore Obscured, and even then they still need LoS. If you have enough terrain to completely block LoS over large portions of the board things get more interesting.
what do you mean it doesn't ignore Obscured?
Just being partially obscured doesn't do anything in 8th edition. Its only relevant for claiming cover saves as non-infantry while also being inside terrain. Which 'ignore cover' would then ignore.
In optional terrain rules (Cities of Death), Obscured (not entirely visible if infantry, 50 % hidden if others) grants -1 to hit versus shooting. That is 8th edition as well, if not the usual tournament standard.
Martel732 wrote: Drukhari are fast and typically suffer no movement penalties. This means they can clear LoS blockers and alpha strike slower armies that take penalties when they move like marines.
Most drukhari I face use the ignore cover coven as we have phased in more and more terrain. It's not helping as Dakka predicted. No, they are still using skimmers. Ignore cover splinter is really good.
Ignore Cover doesn't ignore Obscured, and even then they still need LoS. If you have enough terrain to completely block LoS over large portions of the board things get more interesting.
what do you mean it doesn't ignore Obscured?
Just being partially obscured doesn't do anything in 8th edition. Its only relevant for claiming cover saves as non-infantry while also being inside terrain. Which 'ignore cover' would then ignore.
In optional terrain rules (Cities of Death), Obscured (not entirely visible if infantry, 50 % hidden if others) grants -1 to hit versus shooting. That is 8th edition as well, if not the usual tournament standard.
Ah ok, never even seen anyone play Cities of Death so didn't know.
Martel732 wrote: Drukhari are fast and typically suffer no movement penalties. This means they can clear LoS blockers and alpha strike slower armies that take penalties when they move like marines.
Most drukhari I face use the ignore cover coven as we have phased in more and more terrain. It's not helping as Dakka predicted. No, they are still using skimmers. Ignore cover splinter is really good.
Ignore Cover doesn't ignore Obscured, and even then they still need LoS. If you have enough terrain to completely block LoS over large portions of the board things get more interesting.
what do you mean it doesn't ignore Obscured?
Just being partially obscured doesn't do anything in 8th edition. Its only relevant for claiming cover saves as non-infantry while also being inside terrain. Which 'ignore cover' would then ignore.
In optional terrain rules (Cities of Death), Obscured (not entirely visible if infantry, 50 % hidden if others) grants -1 to hit versus shooting. That is 8th edition as well, if not the usual tournament standard.
Ah ok, never even seen anyone play Cities of Death so didn't know.
We've stopped playing with the regular terrain rules and exclusively use CoD rules instead both because they're clearer and because they cut the game's lethality down to something a little more reasonable. And it did breathe life into some of the army Traits (*cough* Imperial Fist *cough*) that weren't seeing play. The various -1 to be hit traits are still prevalent, but they're no longer the only thing being used by anyone with access to them.
It's easy to forget sometimes that not everyone adopted the CoD rules wholesale.
Anyways, I notice one constant thing about the terrain discussion: "The same". Both sides have roughly the same terrain. There's no benefit to being able to pick a side.
I bring this up because I also saw this as a complaint in Warmahordes; you had terrain that was basically completely symmetrical.
That is not how the game is meant to be. Terrain should be varied so that picking a side is a meaningful choice.
Too much "sameness" is what's making competitive 40k such a weird skew, and people continue to think that it's a good thing.
I didn't say I understood your points, I said I see what's going on. Dindu Nuffin is a name for people who can't (or won't) admit a problem with their behavior.
You called the work of the LVOTOs a travesty and said it needs to be corrected for the "greater good of the game and community." Then you put up some shady posts after being called out for it, asking some pretty manipulative questions trying to get me to say I was going overboard in my distaste for your comments.
Community is a funny word, it implies shared values across a set of people. Likewise, it implies certain behaviors are unacceptable. Your posts make a big assumption about the nature of the community and the values shared by players.
The 40k hobbyist community I belong to favors a DIY spirit, personal expressions of creativity, mutual respect between members, and a shared love of the game. While there are some members of the community who are extremely gifted in various aspects of the hobby (playing the game / painting / modelling / etc,) we recognize that we all bring a different set of skills and have different thresholds regarding quality of execution. As long as someone tries, we look at that favorably; if someone wants to talk trash about other people's work, that's a big problem.
Let's say you came to my FLGS for a tournament and said the same thing about the terrain (which is all the work of volunteers.) You would get a Bagging for saying that about other hobbyists.
A Bagging means you would be told to put away your toys and get out of the store. One of us would take a slow walk to the back to get a trash bag, which takes about 2 minutes. You would have that time to pack your army, but you'd probably waste most of it arguing you didn't do nothing wrong, we don't own the store, we are going to need to get the cops to make you leave, etc. When someone gets back with the bag, we would scrape your toys into it, toss the bag in the street and watch you chase them. We'd get a picture of your face to add to the Dindu board, to make sure everyone knows you are not welcome. We'd laugh when you call the cops to complain we broke your toys. Even the people who were not there to see it happen would make jokes about it for years, you'd get an awful nickname that would be commemorated on the bathroom wall. I'd name a model in my army after you, one that dies often, and it would be better than a distraction Carnifex because everyone would treat it as a mission to destroy it.
That's how my FLGS community operates, and I see that as the right and proper response to those who want to dump on the work of creative types. The online community seems to have the same values, it's just less effective at enforcing them. In that sense, the best possible action TOs could take is banning you and others with that same passive-aggressive negativity.
I'm feel bad you can't see why spitting on the work of several dozen volunteers is a bad thing, or that you believe some big speech is going to change what you said to mean something else. But there are a hundred ways you could have expressed your concerns, you chose to talk malfeasance, and that's incompatible with the values of any community that values creativity and individual expression. I didn't see an apology in to the LVO people in all those posts of yours, so I assume you are sincere in your beliefs that volunteers making terrain for tournaments have to live up to your standards or be trash-talked on major forums. It's wrong, and I hope in time you will see that.
But the greater good of the game and community is not served by better terrain, it's served by getting rid of the trash. Could care less about terrain, give me toilet paper rolls and shredded cardboard over bad actors any day.
So you bully people who think that doing things wrong, even if they take effort, is something that needs to be told that it's wrong? Gotcha. Your "community", and to be honest you by extension, seem like absolute scumbags to even think something like that is even remotely acceptable. If the store condones that sort of behavior then they are even worse and deserve to go out of business. Not only that but you seem to feel it's okay to potentially destroy someone else's property and then laugh at them for it.
It doesn't matter the work of several dozen volunteers if they do a bad job of it. You're defending the equivalent of putting together a house made of sticks and then getting offended that it's not really livable despite it taking a lot of effort. That terrain was gak when it comes to gameplay. Nothing changes that. "But we worked hard on it with a tight deadline" isn't an excuse for doing a shoddy job in anything.
Wayniac, the terrain at LVO wasn't gak, merely lacking for some of us who do not pray on the altar of competetive ITC. I agree on the "sameness" point on principle, though, as choosing the deployment zone should be a proper decision and often in GW missions gives some advantage to you via terrain and some to your opponent via seeing your setup or starting the game etc. Varied layouts bring interest to the game.
Wayniac wrote: Anyways, I notice one constant thing about the terrain discussion: "The same". Both sides have roughly the same terrain. There's no benefit to being able to pick a side.
I bring this up because I also saw this as a complaint in Warmahordes; you had terrain that was basically completely symmetrical.
That is not how the game is meant to be. Terrain should be varied so that picking a side is a meaningful choice.
Too much "sameness" is what's making competitive 40k such a weird skew, and people continue to think that it's a good thing.
I don't know about that. That's just more randomness on who gets the option to pick and then forces his opponent into unfavorable terrain. It's not a really skillful choice unless you're using the newer CA rules and the deployments aren't fixed.
I didn't say I understood your points, I said I see what's going on. Dindu Nuffin is a name for people who can't (or won't) admit a problem with their behavior.
You called the work of the LVOTOs a travesty and said it needs to be corrected for the "greater good of the game and community." Then you put up some shady posts after being called out for it, asking some pretty manipulative questions trying to get me to say I was going overboard in my distaste for your comments.
Community is a funny word, it implies shared values across a set of people. Likewise, it implies certain behaviors are unacceptable. Your posts make a big assumption about the nature of the community and the values shared by players.
The 40k hobbyist community I belong to favors a DIY spirit, personal expressions of creativity, mutual respect between members, and a shared love of the game. While there are some members of the community who are extremely gifted in various aspects of the hobby (playing the game / painting / modelling / etc,) we recognize that we all bring a different set of skills and have different thresholds regarding quality of execution. As long as someone tries, we look at that favorably; if someone wants to talk trash about other people's work, that's a big problem.
Let's say you came to my FLGS for a tournament and said the same thing about the terrain (which is all the work of volunteers.) You would get a Bagging for saying that about other hobbyists.
A Bagging means you would be told to put away your toys and get out of the store. One of us would take a slow walk to the back to get a trash bag, which takes about 2 minutes. You would have that time to pack your army, but you'd probably waste most of it arguing you didn't do nothing wrong, we don't own the store, we are going to need to get the cops to make you leave, etc. When someone gets back with the bag, we would scrape your toys into it, toss the bag in the street and watch you chase them. We'd get a picture of your face to add to the Dindu board, to make sure everyone knows you are not welcome. We'd laugh when you call the cops to complain we broke your toys. Even the people who were not there to see it happen would make jokes about it for years, you'd get an awful nickname that would be commemorated on the bathroom wall. I'd name a model in my army after you, one that dies often, and it would be better than a distraction Carnifex because everyone would treat it as a mission to destroy it.
That's how my FLGS community operates, and I see that as the right and proper response to those who want to dump on the work of creative types. The online community seems to have the same values, it's just less effective at enforcing them. In that sense, the best possible action TOs could take is banning you and others with that same passive-aggressive negativity.
I'm feel bad you can't see why spitting on the work of several dozen volunteers is a bad thing, or that you believe some big speech is going to change what you said to mean something else. But there are a hundred ways you could have expressed your concerns, you chose to talk malfeasance, and that's incompatible with the values of any community that values creativity and individual expression. I didn't see an apology in to the LVO people in all those posts of yours, so I assume you are sincere in your beliefs that volunteers making terrain for tournaments have to live up to your standards or be trash-talked on major forums. It's wrong, and I hope in time you will see that.
But the greater good of the game and community is not served by better terrain, it's served by getting rid of the trash. Could care less about terrain, give me toilet paper rolls and shredded cardboard over bad actors any day.
I suspect people don't purchase airplane tickets, hotel rooms, and event tickets to come play at your FLGS.
Wayniac wrote: So you bully people who think that doing things wrong, even if they take effort, is something that needs to be told that it's wrong? Gotcha. Your "community", and to be honest you by extension, seem like absolute scumbags to even think something like that is even remotely acceptable. If the store condones that sort of behavior then they are even worse and deserve to go out of business.
It doesn't matter the work of several dozen volunteers if they do a bad job of it. You're defending the equivalent of putting together a house made of sticks and then getting offended that it's not really livable despite it taking a lot of effort. That terrain was gak when it comes to gameplay. Nothing changes that. "But we worked hard on it with a tight deadline" isn't an excuse for doing a shoddy job in anything.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Our FLGS is filled with friendly, incredibly intelligent, charismatic people that love the game of 40k and invest time and effort into building a community around the game. Every member treats it as a mission to help others cultivate the same joy and excitement we've experienced through game nights, tournaments, advice from expert players, and the like. Every year, thousands of people visit that FLGS, hundreds of people play games late into the night, and we volunteer a lot of our time for the benefit of others.
Part of the reason this model works is that we take responsibility for understanding what people are looking to get out of it. Sadly, there are some people whose main goal in life is to rag on the efforts of others like you just did. We recognize our FLGS is not set up to accommodate that, we're never going to host a trash-talk night to fulfill the deepest needs of these folks. We also understand that having over-entitled, elitist attack snobs around means actual hobbyists - the ones who are there to exercise their creativity and imagination in a healthy, positive manner - get less out of investing their time and energy to the hobby. It's a net negative situation that leads to atrophy, rot and people walking away from the game.
We're not unsympathetic, we understand there are those who enjoy putting down others, complaining incessantly, and being the nuisance no one asked for. That's fine, be who you want to be. What a Bagging really means is we are investing our time and energy to focusing on the journey those folks go through in life, to find a hobby they can enjoy free from the problems other people create. I make a point with these people to offer ideas about activities that can be enjoyed in solitude, like wood whitling, blacksmithing, card games, etc.
This isn't bullying. The moment we tell someone to leave the store they are trespassing, we're just making sure the departure happens with the least amount of disruption possible. Anyone who sees such low value in the work of others doesn't deserve to have others see much worth in their own. The fact we take the time to put someone's garbage army in a drawstring trash bag demonstrates how much we care, this means the broken bits don't end up scattered all over the pavement. Some of them are sharp and could hurt our feet. The fact we can get this all done in about 3 minutes speaks to the level of camaraderie and commitment these actions engender, when people see you standing up for them they cheer and have a great time. I do get a kick out of all the high fives going around while some lonely wierdo stares in the plate glass windows, it's a learning moment for that wierdo that may cause them to reevalute the choices they made in life. Everybody wins.
While the anonymity of the Internet affords you certain privileges, no one is entitled to be the worst version of themselves in our FLGS. What you call a shoddy job looks like a good effort to me, and it's sad you see it as your mission in life to attack it. Maybe you are some creative wizard capable of much better, who knows? I've noticed the people who complain the loudest tend to be the ones who do the least for the people around them, not many people get to see their work. The lonely, terrible life of a misanthrope must have some advantages, maybe you can educate us on why this is a good way for someone to spend their time. Maybe you can find other people who feel the same way and form a trash talking club, which would be a great outcome for you.
Eventually, TOs who want to grow their events will realize that scaling an attendee pool means weeding out the attack snobs in an efficient manner. Like I said, there are a lot of compromises I would be willing to make to support this. Would gladly play games with wadded-up pieces of newspaper as terrain if it meant I never need to hear you attack fellow hobbyists in this manner again. TOs can have a big impact on that, at events and in forums, by simply setting some rules and forcing people to live up to them.
Yeah, nahh, I'm gonna be real man, "bagging" someones things sounds very much like destruction of personal property, which is likely against the law, or at the very least bringing the location into things to have them held accountable for one reason or another.
I know you're having fun taking a piss at this guy, but you're poorly presenting yourself as well.
I agree with you on your sentiments, but you're doing your own argument a disservice by the way you're phrasing it intentionally.
Martel732 wrote: Drukhari are fast and typically suffer no movement penalties. This means they can clear LoS blockers and alpha strike slower armies that take penalties when they move like marines.
Most drukhari I face use the ignore cover coven as we have phased in more and more terrain. It's not helping as Dakka predicted. No, they are still using skimmers. Ignore cover splinter is really good.
Ignore Cover doesn't ignore Obscured, and even then they still need LoS. If you have enough terrain to completely block LoS over large portions of the board things get more interesting.
what do you mean it doesn't ignore Obscured?
Just being partially obscured doesn't do anything in 8th edition. Its only relevant for claiming cover saves as non-infantry while also being inside terrain. Which 'ignore cover' would then ignore.
In optional terrain rules (Cities of Death), Obscured (not entirely visible if infantry, 50 % hidden if others) grants -1 to hit versus shooting. That is 8th edition as well, if not the usual tournament standard.
Doesn't Ignore Cover completely negate that benefit provided by said cover though?
Not only that but unless the owner tells someone to leave the store, it's not trespassing. You don't get to basically have a vigilante mob of players say "Leave the store now!" for whatever reason they want and have it hold any weight whatsoever.
However, you slice it that's bullying and strongarm tactics because you don't like what someone said.
Slayer, no. Cover is distinct from Obscuration. You get Cover, +1 for light or +2 for proper buildings, from certain things, whereas you get Obscuration from anything physically in the way.
Sherrypie wrote: Slayer, no. Cover is distinct from Obscuration. You get Cover, +1 for light or +2 for proper buildings, from certain things, whereas you get Obscuration from anything physically in the way.
Yeah because what 8th edition needs is more - to hit modifiers to stack.
The rules aren't bad persay but they would really be much more appropriate if 40K used D10's or D12's or such. Having everything reduced to hitting on 6's regardless of their stats isn't good for balance when GW insist on pricing weapons on BS.
Sherrypie wrote: Slayer, no. Cover is distinct from Obscuration. You get Cover, +1 for light or +2 for proper buildings, from certain things, whereas you get Obscuration from anything physically in the way.
Yeah because what 8th edition needs is more - to hit modifiers to stack.
The rules aren't bad persay but they would really be much more appropriate if 40K used D10's or D12's or such. Having everything reduced to hitting on 6's regardless of their stats isn't good for balance when GW insist on pricing weapons on BS.
Sure, but with that being highly unlikely for a change, adding changes that make units more survivable sounds good to me.
Sherrypie wrote: Slayer, no. Cover is distinct from Obscuration. You get Cover, +1 for light or +2 for proper buildings, from certain things, whereas you get Obscuration from anything physically in the way.
Yeah because what 8th edition needs is more - to hit modifiers to stack.
The rules aren't bad persay but they would really be much more appropriate if 40K used D10's or D12's or such. Having everything reduced to hitting on 6's regardless of their stats isn't good for balance when GW insist on pricing weapons on BS.
Sure, but with that being highly unlikely for a change, adding changes that make units more survivable sounds good to me.
Let's remember those modifiers usually benefit other units than the current top dogs: in dense cities Alaitoc is often so close anyway their trait isn't a huge bonus, flyers find it a lot harder to gain Obscure than infantry etc. CoD also allows everyone to always hit on a natural 6.
I've found that cutting lethality supports better maneuvering and raises the importance of the mission over killing, which I like.
Sherrypie wrote: Slayer, no. Cover is distinct from Obscuration. You get Cover, +1 for light or +2 for proper buildings, from certain things, whereas you get Obscuration from anything physically in the way.
Yeah because what 8th edition needs is more - to hit modifiers to stack.
The rules aren't bad persay but they would really be much more appropriate if 40K used D10's or D12's or such. Having everything reduced to hitting on 6's regardless of their stats isn't good for balance when GW insist on pricing weapons on BS.
Sure, but with that being highly unlikely for a change, adding changes that make units more survivable sounds good to me.
Let's remember those modifiers usually benefit other units than the current top dogs: in dense cities Alaitoc is often so close anyway their trait isn't a huge bonus, flyers find it a lot harder to gain Obscure than infantry etc. CoD also allows everyone to always hit on a natural 6.
I've found that cutting lethality supports better maneuvering and raises the importance of the mission over killing, which I like.
it's more guard always hitting on 6's while paying BS 4 points vrs marines hitting on 6's paying BS 3 points are getting a raw deal.
8th edition terrain sucks, totally agree, I do accept thar some lethality in the game could do with being turned down.
Does citys of death do it the best way for balance I don't think so.
Wayniac wrote: So you are admitting you're a bully and then saying that it's okay for you to break the law (destroy someone else's property) because you somehow justify it.
Got it. I don't think there's anything else to discuss here. You and your entire store/community sound like a gang of thugs.
No, Wayne, it's just Chinatown.
You help me understand how you have done something positive in the gaming community before you throw around more trash. Still waiting on a response.
What does that matter? You think that doing "something positive in the gaming community" means that people can't criticize what you've done or say that it's poor quality? Because that's essentially what you are saying: If you put any sort of effort into something, nobody has a right to complain (lest you abuse/make fun of them)
No Wayne, it means the people who criticize tournament organizers all live empty, shallow lives and their complaints speak to a void in human companionship. Their opinions don't matter because they contribute nothing to the greater gaming community and their only motivation is to diminish the accomplishments of others. The community would benefit from taking active measures to identify these weirdos and prevent them from being involved in any form of organized play.
Give me a reason to think I'm wrong.
So again basically "If you contribute to the community you are above critique"
More like, know the person giving the critique. Not all opinions are equal. The loudest voices tend to be the least worth listening to.
All opinions have the right to be voiced. And those who think themselves above other's opinions are quite frankly the worst kind of people.
Having read techsoldaten here and in many other threads I'm genuinely confused if he's a troll or he really believes in what he wrotes. I'm puzzled.
And at least by the picks I have seen I can't say LVO terrain was subpar. As I said, the tables lacked scatter terrain and a little of area terrain but speaking about "Big" terrain pieces those tables where absolutely on the average.
Wayniac I think you are just being unfair by how much you are displeased by ITC and Warhammer big tournaments. And to be honest if you dislike those things so much, and you believe Warhammer shouldn't have "serious tournaments"... why even waste your time writting in this kind of threads instead of more hobby ones like painting, background, etc...? There hasn't been a single tournament or competitive related thread without you here to write how Warhammer should never be about big tournaments and ITC is killing the hobby.
Wayniac wrote: So you are admitting you're a bully and then saying that it's okay for you to break the law (destroy someone else's property) because you somehow justify it.
Got it. I don't think there's anything else to discuss here. You and your entire store/community sound like a gang of thugs.
No, Wayne, it's just Chinatown.
You help me understand how you have done something positive in the gaming community before you throw around more trash. Still waiting on a response.
What does that matter? You think that doing "something positive in the gaming community" means that people can't criticize what you've done or say that it's poor quality? Because that's essentially what you are saying: If you put any sort of effort into something, nobody has a right to complain (lest you abuse/make fun of them)
No Wayne, it means the people who criticize tournament organizers all live empty, shallow lives and their complaints speak to a void in human companionship. Their opinions don't matter because they contribute nothing to the greater gaming community and their only motivation is to diminish the accomplishments of others. The community would benefit from taking active measures to identify these weirdos and prevent them from being involved in any form of organized play.
Give me a reason to think I'm wrong.
So again basically "If you contribute to the community you are above critique"
More like, know the person giving the critique. Not all opinions are equal. The loudest voices tend to be the least worth listening to.
All opinions have the right to be voiced. And those who think themselves above other's opinions are quite frankly the worst kind of people.
Sure, everyone has a right to mouth off all they want. That doesn't mean everyone has to tolerate it.
I'm just saying the people complaining the loudest about terrain are trying to compensate for a serious deficiency in their personal life. Their comments are motivated by a desire to diminish the accomplishments of others, which is opposed to the ambitions we all have as gamers.
Give me a reason to think that's not true.
Any negative comment will be able to be interpreted as "diminishing the accomplishments of others". You do not have any position to decide who's opinions matter and who's opinions do not, especially while you advocate for destroying people's property, bullying other's and insulting other players. It's hilarious how you think you're somehow morally just in your positioning.
Amishprn86 wrote: Its call "Call the cops if a someone doesnt leave the store when the owner asks them to" Breaking their items will lead them to call the cops on you. It is bullying, yes you can bully a bad person, doesnt mean you are right.
If i drove an hour to go to your event, i said something about your terrain and you got mad at me enough to tell me to leave the store, YES i will try to stay, i just drove an hour for you. And if you bagged ANY of my stuff i'll call the cops on you so fast. I spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on my warhammer. I actually care about the game, if you dont care enough to have tables ready for the players and i make a comment about it, you have no right to get mad.
Would you get mad if i brought a army of spurs? Would you laugh and make a comment? yes you would, b.c its silly, would i get mad about it? No... and look at the terrain in the same way, you are doing an official event, you want official models, well i want good terrain (Not super high quality, but i dont want cardboard).
We enjoy a pretty good relationship with law enforcement. It's amusing when an adult is out in the parking lot, loitering, screaming about how people were so mean to him and his toys are all broken.
There's a channel on YouTube I think called Police Activity. Pretty sure there's still a dashcam video of one of these incidents up over there. Would have to be 4 years old now, I will see if I can find it. Otherwise I can post some the videos from my phone, let me see if I have a way to hide faces.
Seriously, the law does not care about your toys. Best bet is an insurance claim or don't be a jerk to everyone else in the store. This never happened to anyone who didn't deserve it.
The law does care, especially when i take you to claims court and having that police report of damage items. Yes they will come, yes they will make a report (Or the owner of the "toys" will with them) yes they will ask why you broke there things, and then ask why you didnt call them before you broke their property.
You cant dig yourself out of this insane hole you dug, you are a terrible person and shouldnt be running events or playing with others. If you break someone else's things b.c of a comment, and get mad when they are now mad, there is something wrong with you.
You are for sure the worst dakka poster i've ever seen, advocating for violence over a comment is bad enough, but you are just showing so much disrespect for everything, a persons belongings, a persons opinions, a persons mental health after bullying them.
You cant dig yourself out of this insane hole you dug, you are a terrible person and shouldnt be running events or playing with others. If you break someone else's things b.c of a comment, and get mad when they are now mad, there is something wrong with you.
You are for sure the worst dakka poster i've ever seen, advocating for violence over a comment is bad enough, but you are just showing so much disrespect for everything, a persons belongings, a persons opinions, a persons mental health after bullying them.
Just get out of the game and get off this site.
Just report it, and move on. I'll be amazed if he still has an account this time tomorrow, so it's not worth getting angry over.
