Ok, we get it. You aren't convinced. I don't have a dog in the fight, but I would rather not get this thread locked. Couldn't "I'm not convinced" backed up with your data suffice to prove your point? Actually, wouldn't it not prove your point better without the online spew additives? I tend to agree with most of your comments on these boards, NotOnline, but your acerbic tone really detracts from your message and I find myself trying to find loopholes in your argument even more so. All I'm asking for is for you to keep your logic, and tone down the hyperbolic online rhetoric.
Interesting I didn't know terms could take chainaxes. That is a pretty good unit too. Maybe even better than oblitz now. I'll concede that.
So much you know about the army.....
Also when terminators beat you out in a max squad in price and Bullets vomited out then you have a problem.
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Gordon Shumway wrote: Ok, we get it. You aren't convinced. I don't have a dog in the fight, but I would rather not get this thread locked. Couldn't "I'm not convinced" backed up with your data suffice to prove your point? Actually, wouldn't it not prove your point better without the online spew additives? I tend to agree with most of your comments on these boards, NotOnline, but your acerbic tone really detracts from your message and I find myself trying to find loopholes in your argument even more so. All I'm asking for is for you to keep your logic, and tone down the hyperbolic online rhetoric.
Good thing then, but frankly if you regard this as impolite i don't really see a point in this.
Because whilest it may come over as impolite the intention is not.
I get the intention is not, but the language used to convey the non impolite ideas is, in fact impolite. Really, is the "so much you know about the army..." needed to convey or express your thoughts, or is it just gut reaction crap? Or is it online posturing? Usually one sees this sort of rhetorical device when posters don't have much to back up their claims. You do.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Not online are you saying they should have been the previous 65 point error? I’m trying to understand what the frustration is here
Most certainly not 65 pts. I even stated in the tactics thread the following:
It is a Typo, technically it is allowed to field the newer 65 pts value, but considering obviously it is a Copy paste error and for your standing in your local FLG's don't field them at 65 pts.
What i am getting annoyed at is this:
The question is are they worth their points and the answer is when played correctly they are even better than they were before. So...Yes...Because they were already OP. \
Whilest then showing nothign to back up that statement.
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Gordon Shumway wrote: I get the intention is not, but the language used to convey the non impolite ideas is, in fact impolite. Really, is the "so much you know about the army..." needed to convey or express your thoughts, or is it just gut reaction crap? Or is it online posturing?
Which can be read as condescidning i'll cede that point but is more along a frustated contemplation of a factual situation.
I get that, but when you are posting in a discussion board disagreeing about that very thing, you don't really need to get frustrated. Numbers will back you up (or they won't). You do not need to go for the jugular vein. It isn't a life or death experience.
No - I am just smart and know this unit deletes 2 units a turn at minimum and is likely at least -1 to hit with 4++ save when you go to shoot back at them. Buffs aren't really expensive in the sense you are talking about ether. They are auto include. The only question is what units are you going to use them on. Oblitz are unquestionably the best because they get 18x2 quality shots. Nothing else in the army even comes close....except a squad of 10 terminators all with combi meltas which costs A LOT MORE and has LESS range.
Chaos is a death star buff army...understand this. Win games.
If you are deliberately making a unit 50% weaker. Then yeah - it's going to be meh.
Know what is meh? A repulsor. That is Meh. Oblitz DS 1 shotting a repulsor almost automatically - thats not meh.
To which was the following replied:
I guess I'm not trying to cost them according to the maximum potential buff level and factoring the use of 2CP stratagems into their base cost. Even with EC, the Oldblits were not oneshotting a Repulsor by any means on average (they'd do 10-11 out of 16 wounds), so we have to factor in the cost of additional support (and ensuring it could be near enough the Oblits when they DS) as well for more buffs to make that happen. If we're talking a Character, 3 Oldblits, and 2 CP for a DS strike package to kill one 3+sv tank, that doesn't seem OP to me given the state of the game.
It also doesn't help that the Repulsor is basically a 1980's GI Joe toy with a gazillion absurdly named weapons that are just slightly different versions of existing alternatives and can't decide what it wants to actually be. The Repulsor is a fundamentally poorly thought out unit, not just a poorly costed one.
And this is just a small exceprt from the last page off this thread alone, special points for NOT providing any math even though it was stated he had the Numbers and or making claims promptly to be disproven (repulsor 1 shot.)
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Daedalus81 wrote: The question isn't "are the worth the points as compared to the old setup?". It's are they worth the points as compared to other options in the book.
And it seems quite likely that they are - *if you're willing to make the investment*.
With potentially fewer Castellans to worry about Obliterators might have more soft targets to chase, which is great for the variability of their gun.
Still does not fix the issue that there are more Assasins around that which complicates MoP buffs which make the Oblits reliable.
But maybee you are right and the meta changed enough but frankly after a short intervall off a meta shakeup i don't see many things having changed.
The key value for the new obliterators that makes them worth their cost is their buff efficiency. They have a very high power density. Buffs go further on larger units, generally.
If you're not investing in supporting them and building around them, you're not getting their full value, and you're doing marginally worse than Oldbliterators. If you are, you're doing better than if you were doing the same with Oldbliterators.
That's kind of where it's at, and it kind of depends on what you want out of your oblitz. You probably shouldn't just staple them onto any list, but if you build around them you might go reasonably far.
If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.
Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.
Did anyone actually say that this definitely wasn't a misprint? I didn't see much of that, I think everyone here acknowledged the possibility of GW's screw up. I think the main point is that a lot of people with more experience with Chaos were arguing that 65 pts is fine. Care to clear up who you were referring to, P4P?
Xenomancers wrote: If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.
Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.
Tell me then, hitting on 2+ and rerolling ones that would just be about an additional 160+ pts instead of the cozy 90 from before at cheapest footslogging., If you want to avoid that you will pay 200+ for charachter support alone.
So we are at 345 +200+ another 90 pts rounded down for CP.
That is over 600 pts.
For getting 600 pts back as a suicide unit.
(the correct price Tag is higher i rounded down the equipped sorceres, cp cost and Lord cost)
First of all - oblitz have 24" range and they deep strike. If you are suiciding with them - that is up to you. 24" range is clearly enough range for you to at he very least...drop in cover. More than likely though - you are just dropping them into the middle of your army (if you built it right) and sharing the reoll 1's buff with as many units as you can.
Second of all...What kind of Choas army isn't running a sorceror with precience? What kind of Choas army isn't going to be using the reroll 1's to wound aura? You build an army wisely and the only thing it is costing you is CP - because all your firepower is going to benifit from these buffs (except preceince which you were taking anyways...
Also - CP are not points. CP are another currency. And as if you aren't using 1 criminally undercosted +1 to wound strat (should easily be 3 CP) and EC every turn...you just aren't playing competitively at all.
Were they preferable before? OFC they were - I'd much rather have to squads of 65 point oldblitz and deep strike them turn 2 and 3 but now you have to frontload and play defense buffs on oblitz to really get the most out of them.
Good thing your 2 essentially required HQ's have this under control.
Xenomancers wrote: If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank. That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.
Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.
So that's...
35/2 hits 35/3 wounds 70/9 unsaved 140/9 damage, or 15.56
Requiring a Lord and a Sorcerer. Replace the Lord with a Master of Possessions to get reroll 1s to-wound, you get:
35/2 hits 245/18 wounds 245/27 unsaved 490/27 damage, or 18.15
So, with the investment of...
3 Obliterators 1 Sorcerer, who must cast a power 1 Master of Possessions, who must cast a power and CANNOT Deep Strike, so has to walk 2 CP
You can one-round a Repulsor on average. If the opponent gets slightly lucky or you get slightly unlucky? Well, sucks to suck, your units just failed to do much.
Edit: Xeno, you do know that Exalted Champions are NOT Lieutenants, right? They give FULL rerolls to-wound, but in MELEE ONLY. The only way to get rerolls to-wound at a distance is with Daemon units and a Master of Posessions.
No...you kill 2 repulsors. Oblitz average 2 damage.
And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.
Xenomancers wrote: If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.
Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.
If we are talking Newblits (as opposed to the Oldblits), I guess if you're enhancing BS, getting rerolls to hit, roll above average on S (Repulsor is T8 and Oblit weapons are S6+D3), have rerolls to wound, and are Slaanesh with Endless Cacophony, sure.
But at that point we're not talking about 115pt Oblits. We're talking about Slaaneshi Oblits with a 2CP Stratagem that are enjoying 4 distinct buffs that have to be provided by other sources (and thus should factor into the costs as well) and rolling above average on their stats. Most anything will look impressive on paper if you load that many buffs and ignore the support costs.
As is, out of the box, 3 naked Newblits will do 8 damage to a Repulsor for 345pts (18 x 2/3 =12 hits /2 with avgS8=6 wounds x2/3 avg-2ASM=4 failed saves x2 avg Damage =8). They'll sport 12 T5 2+/5++ wounds.
By comparison, for 360pts two quadlas Predators will do 10.37 wounds out of the box with double the range and sport 22 T7 3+sv wounds.
And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.
I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)
Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:
6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64% 10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%
So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.
And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.
I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)
Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:
6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64% 10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%
So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.
Sorry It's a lot more impressive when you shoot them twice...might as well just double all that expenditure for 2 CP...this is why the Nublitz are good.
And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.
I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)
Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:
6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64% 10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%
So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.
Sorry It's a lot more impressive when you shoot them twice...might as well just double all that expenditure for 2 CP...this is why the Nublitz are good.
Because, you know, feth anyone who doesn't play Slaanesh, right? That's good game design.
The way I see it. The point value given is so that there is only 1 way to play oblitz or they aren't worth it. The required support and high point cost - it means adding more CSM makes more sense than adding in TSDP and co. I think it is an attempt to give Mono army something over soup.
But they are going to be Slaanesh and they are going to use the shoot twice stratagem. If you are not going to do that why are you bringing Oblits? You are also likely to have some buffing characters, because you have to have at least one HQ. This might be canned strategy - but its how the game is played.
I'm in the "should be about 90 points" camp. They are certainly not amazing at 115.
But at 65 they were comically good, and I think anyone who couldn't see it was kidding themselves.
And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.
I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)
Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:
6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64% 10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%
So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.
Sorry It's a lot more impressive when you shoot them twice...might as well just double all that expenditure for 2 CP...this is why the Nublitz are good.
Because, you know, feth anyone who doesn't play Slaanesh, right? That's good game design.
Personally - From a fluff perspective it is meaningless. You can include mixtures of gods in your detachments for no penalty. If fluff is a huge concern - just paint them however you want and say they are slannesh and make up some story as to why your Tzeentchen painted oblitz are shooting twice. It isn't a limiting factor like if it were a black legion only stratagem. Or you have to be Ultramarines to play competitive marines.
Formosa wrote: No, they are not worth 115pts for any other mark than slaanesh and endless cacophony, with that combo they are worth those points.
It seems to me that this is not correct. The are the damage outputs of each unit divided by their points with no buffs. Obliterators are more well rounded and potentially stronger than any yother option when supported with CP rerolls to stave off the crappy results.
Tyel wrote: But they are going to be Slaanesh and they are going to use the shoot twice stratagem. If you are not going to do that why are you bringing Oblits? You are also likely to have some buffing characters, because you have to have at least one HQ. This might be canned strategy - but its how the game is played.
I'm in the "should be about 90 points" camp. They are certainly not amazing at 115.
But at 65 they were comically good, and I think anyone who couldn't see it was kidding themselves.
I have to disagree. That is a really powerful combo. It should realistically kill about 1/4th of your opponent elite army. In other words. It doesn't need to be cheaper.
Okay, Imma go through and manually mathhammer all the possibilities. All numbers assume every single available buff with the exception of Endless Cacophony. I have bolded each one that results in a dead Repulsor on average.
Spoiler:
S7 AP-1 D1 averages to 5.104
S8 AP-1 D1 averages to 6.806
S9 AP-1 D1 averages to 8.507
S7 AP-2 D1 averages to 6.806
S8 AP-2 D1 averages to 9.074
S9 AP-2 D1 averages to 11.343
S7 AP-3 D1 averages to 8.507
S8 AP-3 D1 averages to 11.343
S9 AP-3 D1 averages to 14.178
S7 AP-1 D2 averages to 10.208
S8 AP-1 D2 averages to 13.611
S9 AP-1 D2 averages to 17.014
S7 AP-2 D2 averages to 13.611 S8 AP-2 D2 averages to 18.148
S9 AP-2 D2 averages to 22.685 S7 AP-3 D2 averages to 17.014 S8 AP-3 D2 averages to 22.685
S9 AP-3 D2 averages to 28.356 S7 AP-1 D3 averages to 15.313
S8 AP-1 D3 averages to 20.417
S9 AP-1 D3 averages to 25.521
S7 AP-2 D3 averages to 20.417
S8 AP-2 D3 averages to 27.222
S9 AP-2 D3 averages to 34.028
S7 AP-3 D3 averages to 25.521
S8 AP-3 D3 averages to 34.028
S9 AP-3 D3 averages to 42.535
Too much math later reveals that Obliterators average to 14.238 against a Repulsor with every single buff, excepting Endless Cacophony and rerolls on stats. Or, in other words, unless a reroll to any one stat is worth a +25% improvement, theyaren't even one-shotting a Repulsor on average.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay, Imma go through and manually mathhammer all the possibilities. All numbers assume every single available buff with the exception of Endless Cacophony. I have bolded each one that results in a dead Repulsor on average.
Spoiler:
S7 AP-1 D1 averages to 5.104
S8 AP-1 D1 averages to 6.806
S9 AP-1 D1 averages to 8.507
S7 AP-2 D1 averages to 6.806
S8 AP-2 D1 averages to 9.074
S9 AP-2 D1 averages to 11.343
S7 AP-3 D1 averages to 8.507
S8 AP-3 D1 averages to 11.343
S9 AP-3 D1 averages to 14.178
S7 AP-1 D2 averages to 10.208
S8 AP-1 D2 averages to 13.611
S9 AP-1 D2 averages to 17.014
S7 AP-2 D2 averages to 13.611 S8 AP-2 D2 averages to 18.148
S9 AP-2 D2 averages to 22.685 S7 AP-3 D2 averages to 17.014 S8 AP-3 D2 averages to 22.685
S9 AP-3 D2 averages to 28.356 S7 AP-1 D3 averages to 15.313
S8 AP-1 D3 averages to 20.417
S9 AP-1 D3 averages to 25.521
S7 AP-2 D3 averages to 20.417
S8 AP-2 D3 averages to 27.222
S9 AP-2 D3 averages to 34.028
S7 AP-3 D3 averages to 25.521
S8 AP-3 D3 averages to 34.028
S9 AP-3 D3 averages to 42.535
Too much math later reveals that Obliterators average to 14.238 against a Repulsor with every single buff, excepting Endless Cacophony and rerolls on stats. Or, in other words, unless a reroll to any one stat is worth a +25% improvement, theyaren't even one-shotting a Repulsor on average.
I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.
Here's an easier exercise. 3 Oblits with only CaC or VotLW & CaC.
That's a 48% and 67% kill rate with a good number chances to kill two repulsors as well as mostly crippling it otherwise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for gaks and giggles - the average a Castellan does to a Repulsor
Xenomancers wrote: I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?
Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.
That's with AVERAGE stats.
Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.
Jacksmiles wrote: It's there, not in magenta for some reason though. Bottom right of the first page.
Likely it's because they considered the CSM book a "new book" rather than just an updated one.
Maybe. There's a ton of magenta in the rest of the same document though.
Probably because it was ready 2 weeks ago and they made edits in between.
Brand new FAQs are never magenta. That is done to indicate changes from a previous version. You won't see much in the first few pages because the first section of the document is for codex 2.0, as listed in the actual document itself. The first edition of the codex already had entries in the errata/FAQ and was included at the end, hence the magenta there.
*cough*
Allow me to quote from the introduction to the Astra Militarum FAQ/Errata document...
As they’re updated regularly, each has a version number; when changes are made, the version number will be updated, and any changes from the previous version will be highlighted in magenta.
Xenomancers wrote: I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?
Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.
That's with AVERAGE stats.
Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.
Nah I agree average is 18.14 is it not? Assuming 2's rolled for all weapon stats.
18 shots, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's = 17.5 hits
wounding on a 3+ rerolling 1's = 13.61 wounds
5+ save = 9.07 get through
2 damage = 18.14 + dead repulsor?
Daedalus81 wrote: I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.
Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++
But, buffs/abilities and auras are a part of this as well as stratagems, so surely they have to be taken into consideration when factoring points cost. it makes sense to me that part of the cost for the new oblits is factored into the use of EC and VotLW (two very low cost stratagems in my view).
Xenomancers wrote: I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?
Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.
That's with AVERAGE stats.
Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.
But that doesn't change the fact that you, on average, will more likely than not kill the Repulsor.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.
Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++
But, buffs/abilities and auras are a part of this as well as stratagems, so surely they have to be taken into consideration when factoring points cost. it makes sense to me that part of the cost for the new oblits is factored into the use of EC and VotLW (two very low cost stratagems in my view).
The reason you don't see them is Castellans and all the stuff taken to beat a Castellan hurts a Repulsor.
It's still NOT easy to kill. Any unit that can get it's points back on a T8 3+ model in one turn is doing pretty damn well.
A fully buffed Cawl's Castellan does in the 22 wound range to a Repulsor. "Fully" buffed Obliterators achieve that pretty easily. So, I find it a little silly to say Obliterators have no value especially when you're paying less than half the points.
Xenomancers wrote: I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?
Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.
That's with AVERAGE stats.
Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.
But that doesn't change the fact that you, on average, will more likely than not kill the Repulsor.
No...you will on average kill 2 of them with double shooting. 600 points of tanks - gone - in 1 turn and people are trying to say the unit isn't worth it's points. It 1 rounds a knight if it has death hex on it or can't rotate...The unit is strong. It just needs CP expenditure to work...kind of like smash captains.
Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.
Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.
The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.
I ran a MATLAB script that can run the shooting of Obliterators a couple thousand times, considering the ability to re-roll stats and other strategem and psychic buffs.
It used the following sequence for using CP and Mutant Invigoration re-rolls:
If S<=8, and it's permitted to spend both, re-roll strength.
If S>8, AP<=1 and it's permitted to spend both, re-roll AP If it's only permitted to spend one, and D<3, re-roll D.
An obliterator section with Mutant Invigoration, a CP Re-roll available, Cacophony, Veterans, Prescience, and Infernal Power averages about 42 wounds to a T8 3+ target.
An obliterator section with none seems to average only 8.
Xenomancers wrote: Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.
Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.
The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.
Alright. 563 points, 2 CP, two psychic powers (one WC 6, one WC 7) to have a 4/9 chance of killing a Repulsor.
Let's make that clear-all that, to kill a model that is AT MOST worth 317 points.
JNAProductions wrote: You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.
Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.
And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.
Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.
That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).
Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.
I went back and reviewed your long list of the various outcomes and I think, bigger picture wise, you are correct. Of the 27 possible combinations of stats on the guns, the minority one shot a repulsor.
The issue is most people look at the use of average and apply a mean to the gun stats. Because of this people like myself considered average to be 2,2,2 on those grounds. But you're right that there is a lot of variance, which begs the question of when and where is their best application?
Dudeface wrote: I went back and reviewed your long list of the various outcomes and I think, bigger picture wise, you are correct. Of the 27 possible combinations of stats on the guns, the minority one shot a repulsor.
The issue is most people look at the use of average and apply a mean to the gun stats. Because of this people like myself considered average to be 2,2,2 on those grounds. But you're right that there is a lot of variance, which begs the question of when and where is their best application?
In a tournament? Probably nothing-they're too random and unreliable to have the consistent victories needed there.
In a casual game, they'll do just fine, but that's true of everything from Deathstrikes to Grey Knights.
Xenomancers wrote: Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.
Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.
The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.
Alright. 563 points, 2 CP, two psychic powers (one WC 6, one WC 7) to have a 4/9 chance of killing a Repulsor.
Let's make that clear-all that, to kill a model that is AT MOST worth 317 points.
We get that support is required to do it. You are taking these units anyways and this is the most effective place to put them.
JNAProductions wrote: You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.
Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.
And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.
Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.
That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).
Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.
I went back and reviewed your long list of the various outcomes and I think, bigger picture wise, you are correct. Of the 27 possible combinations of stats on the guns, the minority one shot a repulsor.
The issue is most people look at the use of average and apply a mean to the gun stats. Because of this people like myself considered average to be 2,2,2 on those grounds. But you're right that there is a lot of variance, which begs the question of when and where is their best application?
Jacksmiles wrote: It's there, not in magenta for some reason though. Bottom right of the first page.
Likely it's because they considered the CSM book a "new book" rather than just an updated one.
Maybe. There's a ton of magenta in the rest of the same document though.
Probably because it was ready 2 weeks ago and they made edits in between.
Brand new FAQs are never magenta. That is done to indicate changes from a previous version. You won't see much in the first few pages because the first section of the document is for codex 2.0, as listed in the actual document itself. The first edition of the codex already had entries in the errata/FAQ and was included at the end, hence the magenta there.
*cough*
Allow me to quote from the introduction to the Astra Militarum FAQ/Errata document...
As they’re updated regularly, each has a version number; when changes are made, the version number will be updated, and any changes from the previous version will be highlighted in magenta.
Care to try that one again?
Why try again? That's needlessly irrelevant.
They said why they separated it in the FAQ. Sorry that it bothers you this bloody much.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.
Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++
I'm not sure this is true any longer. Almost all the ultra-efficient AT options just took a nosedive in efficiency, so non-invuln vehicles may actually break out into the realm of undefeated lists more frequently at GTs. Oblitz may therefore become the next big AT threat that finds success, but there's a few huge assumptions being made here. When you're committing so many points, buffs, and attention into a single fire and die tactic, it's easy to lose the cons when the maths shows you all the pros.
This tactic seems pretty easy to see coming and doesn't have too many ways to get into range with the full package. I'm not convinced its as effective as the maths alone suggest, largely due to factors we can't emulate.
Xenomancers wrote: Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.
Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.
The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.
Alright. 563 points, 2 CP, two psychic powers (one WC 6, one WC 7) to have a 4/9 chance of killing a Repulsor.
Let's make that clear-all that, to kill a model that is AT MOST worth 317 points.
You have a lot better than a 4-in-9 chance of killing a Repulsor if you brought both Sorcerers.
Here's my simulation results [1000 trials ea]:
It looks like a Obliterator section with: Endless Cacophony, Mutant Invigoration [priorities: D>S>AP], Prescience, Veterans of the Long War, Infernal Power, and the option to use the CP re-roll [That's 3 psychic powers from 2 casters and 3-4 CP] results in like a 90% chance to flatten a repulsor. [Also, why are Repulsors our standard of lethal efficiency, as opposed to a 4++ Knight or something. Did I miss something, and overnight Repulsors become the new hotness?]
JNAProductions wrote: You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.
Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.
And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.
Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.
That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).
Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.
I'm not sure why you're willfully ignoring the most powerful and easiest buff available to them, but including buffs that require a character.
Because to determine how EC helps, you just double the total.
With EC and all the other buffs, they will pretty consistently wreck a 300 point vehicle, for 500+ points and 4-6 CP.
First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.
Second, the Obliterator section fully buffed for 540 points w/ characters comes close, with a better than 50/50 shot of doing 3 Leman Russ's [~500-600 points] worth of damage in a single round of firing [Disclaimer: Katherine recommends not risking variance, and sticking to the much safer and probable 2 Leman Russ tanks engaged and destroyed per turn]. It is virtually guaranteed to wreck a Repulsor.
Having played against these just the once in a tournament since they came out (TO ruled they were 115 pts each) I would say that they are eye-wateringly devastating when they drop in fully buffed and much harder to deal with due to the CC threat - but do rather drop off an efficiency cliff if your opponent can clip their wings by shutting down their buffs.
Used right they are game-changingly powerful so I think they have to be at something fairly close to their current points cost. There are not many units in the game which can - with a few CP added - shoot their own points value off the table in a single turn. That is almost crazy powerful when they work as intended.
If you want to run them unbuffed then you are just doing it wrong and you should probably use different units that actually function well without support. It is a powerful unit that you need to think about building your list and your tactics around; it is not just 345 points of stuff you can sling in your list and pop on the table and expect it to win the game for you.
Afraid the maths has just taken me from "they are overcosted" to "wow, they can do that much? 115 points if fine."
I think the issue is that at 115 points they are relatively fragile (2+/5++ kind of fragile - but nearly 29 points per wound isn't good). If your dice are cold its going to hurt when they get nuked next turn. But if your dice are vaguely hot they are horrendous.
I don't think the "they only work with buffs and CP" argument holds up. See Ork Looters. This adding HQ costs is also misleading - because its the marginal HQ cost for the unit, not the absolute one. (This applies equally to say guardsmen "oh company commanders cost points" - yes. So do all HQ options - no one to my knowledge yet has the option to take a 0 point smear on the ground...)
Tyel wrote: Afraid the maths has just taken me from "they are overcosted" to "wow, they can do that much? 115 points if fine."
I think the issue is that at 115 points they are relatively fragile (2+/5++ kind of fragile - but nearly 29 points per wound isn't good). If your dice are cold its going to hurt when they get nuked next turn. But if your dice are vaguely hot they are horrendous.
I don't think the "they only work with buffs and CP" argument holds up. See Ork Looters. This adding HQ costs is also misleading - because its the marginal HQ cost for the unit, not the absolute one. (This applies equally to say guardsmen "oh company commanders cost points" - yes. So do all HQ options - no one to my knowledge yet has the option to take a 0 point smear on the ground...)
Indeed - It's the lets include the mandatory HQ options in the equation argument and it's just bad.
To those saying 'oh it's just slaaneshi obits' well yes, quite. In much the same way that you never saw imperium Castellans. But anyone arguing Castellans weren't good because 'it's admech castellans, don't generalise' would have gotten a long cold stare from most players. Of course we're talking about squeezing the unit till the pips squeak, we're math-hammering a unit's high-end competitiveness here. I think it's fair to a) assume the unit is specced correctly and b) is receiving the buffs that unlock its potential.
First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.
Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.
First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.
Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.
I feel like that's a poor assessment.
3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1
These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.
What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -
So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.
And here we can see the power of Obliterators:
36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21
1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload
The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.
Except in the same way that you can say "Guardsmen with FRF,SRF are 55 points for 10 dudes" you can say mostly the same for Oblits with Psyker buffs. Those aren't auras-they're powers.
They honestly don't have to wait. Between the -1 to hit from alpha legion - -1 to hit from the prayer. Wartime - ability to advance and shoot. Their threat range is approximately. 14+24. Or basically...the only things they can't threaten turn 1 are artillery?
Some games that is fine.
Some games you need to DS them. Which is true of just about every units of it's type.
I mean....no one is putting a 30 man devil gaunt on the table to start the game.
And 24 " is not sucide range.
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JNAProductions wrote: Except in the same way that you can say "Guardsmen with FRF,SRF are 55 points for 10 dudes" you can say mostly the same for Oblits with Psyker buffs. Those aren't auras-they're powers.
JNAProductions wrote: Except in the same way that you can say "Guardsmen with FRF,SRF are 55 points for 10 dudes" you can say mostly the same for Oblits with Psyker buffs. Those aren't auras-they're powers.
55 points for 11 dudes, one who doesn't do anything.
You definitely should consider the cost of support assets when considering the worth of a unit, because if it's going to need support, but it needs too much support, you still don't want it. And generally, the cost of a support ability should be paid by the unit providing the support, but in the case of a unit like Obliterators that has extreme power density, they also should pay for the sheer potential they have to be buffed non-specifically. Especially because hero units don't need to be more expensive as is.
That said, with no points other than CP spend on support Oblitz are pretty terrifying, and with full support they can get really close to or surpass the total cost of them and their support in a single round.
I'd say there's still questions, though. Based on the graph I posted on the last page, it looks like the effect of Precience and the combined effect of the MoP's powers are about equal. The Sorcerer has another power to support a different unit in a different way [or buff your oblitz with something else], so he seems definitely worth taking to support the battery. However, while adding the MoP adds to the unit's power, he might not be worth it since he doesn't have a whole lot to do other than buff the obliterators. Does he add enough to the squad? I don't know, but the squad is already terrifying, and there's good argument that you shouldn't be trying for 3 leman-russes a turn and should stick with a secure 2 and spend the MoP's points on other assets, or defensive support.
First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.
Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.
I feel like that's a poor assessment.
3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1
These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.
What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -
So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.
And here we can see the power of Obliterators:
36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21
1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload
The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.
I stand by my original idea. They shouldn't be 115 and they shouldn't be a unit. They should be like carnifex and split off once they are deployed. That way they can have a fair price point and not take advantage of absurd buffs. Lets get real...these buffs are absurd. We are talking about 400% damage increase...
Xenomancers wrote: I stand by my original idea. They shouldn't be 115 and they shouldn't be a unit. They should be like carnifex and split off once they are deployed. That way they can have a fair price point and not take advantage of absurd buffs. Lets get real...these buffs are absurd. We are talking about 400% damage increase...
I can actually agree with you there. That'd be a good way to make balancing them easier.
First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.
Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.
I feel like that's a poor assessment.
3x5 AC Havocs 24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
3 Oblits 18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1
These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.
What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -
So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.
And here we can see the power of Obliterators:
36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21
1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two 2) They spent half the CP to do it 3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload
The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.
My assessment was accurate, your one is extremely poor. Obliterators skip the first turn. By your own measure they come down turn 2 and STILL have slightly lower impact than Havocs unless you buff them, and only slightly higher impact than unbuffed Havocs if you do. And then from every turn going forward, Havocs value continues multiplying from there, because Havocs are far far FAR more likely to survive than a single squad of Obliterators, and anyone saying otherwise doesn't play CSM - let alone the fact that there's 3 squads of them compared to 1. And thats Havocs, they aren't even a top unit. Also, are autocannons even the optimal loadout here? Two squads with Lascannons are the same price range and do 6.22 wounds a turn and have higher returns from buffs - 150% as much damage over the first two turns as the Obliterators did. With buffs they are doing 25.66 damage over two turns, more again than the Obliterators.
I'm sorry, but acting like Obliterators DON'T have to make their points back in the turn they come down 99% of the time, is just flat out wrong. They aren't a durable fire magnet, they are a big investment in damage that spikes your output at turn 2 and doesn't coast anymore further than that. It's insane to try and argue that they can somehow be worth their points if they come down and don't make them back that turn, that is absolutely not their role, and you are either playing the unit very wrong, or really messing up in playing against them.
The more I see these arguments, the more I'm convinced people on here spend way too much time theorycrafting and not enough time playing.
First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.
Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.
I feel like that's a poor assessment.
3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1
These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.
What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -
So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.
And here we can see the power of Obliterators:
36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21
1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload
The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.
My assessment was accurate, your one is extremely poor. Obliterators skip the first turn. By your own measure they come down turn 2 and STILL have slightly lower impact than Havocs unless you buff them, and only slightly higher impact than unbuffed Havocs if you do. And then from every turn going forward, Havocs value continues multiplying from there, because Havocs are far far FAR more likely to survive than a single squad of Obliterators, and anyone saying otherwise doesn't play CSM - let alone the fact that there's 3 squads of them compared to 1. And thats Havocs, they aren't even a top unit. Also, are autocannons even the optimal loadout here? Two squads with Lascannons are the same price range and do 6.22 wounds a turn and have higher returns from buffs - 150% as much damage over the first two turns as the Obliterators did. With buffs they are doing 25.66 damage over two turns, more again than the Obliterators.
I'm sorry, but acting like Obliterators DON'T have to make their points back in the turn they come down 99% of the time, is just flat out wrong. They aren't a durable fire magnet, they are a big investment in damage that spikes your output at turn 2 and doesn't coast anymore further than that. It's insane to try and argue that they can somehow be worth their points if they come down and don't make them back that turn, that is absolutely not their role, and you are either playing the unit very wrong, or really messing up in playing against them.
The more I see these arguments, the more I'm convinced people on here spend way too much time theorycrafting and not enough time playing.
I wouldn't call 20% slightly higher, but I guess that comes down to opinion. If your dice come in hot then you can outshine even lascannons.
Havocs will die. Lascannon havocs will die more.
Between those units there are 15 3+ T5 wounds. The Obliterators have 12 2+/5++ wounds. There isn't a ton of daylight between those two numbers. It is further complicated if your opponent has other targets that need to take AV fire as well.
It's not always simple to remove Obliterators from the table.
I'm not saying Obliterators are better than any possible unit. That isn't the point - nor should it be. Obliterators fill a role and they do it well. If you want your AV on the table plinking then by all means do havocs. If you want a more close assault style army then maybe obliterators are more appropriate.
I am not a big fan of math-hammer as you generally don't roll the dice enough in one game for the averages to matter, and things like 'laser cannons do x% more damage' is misleading as that is true against large models, but laser cannons are useless against a mob of 30 orks. Base on the games I have played I think that the Obliterates are worth 115 points. Could they be 105 or 110 and not be broken. Probably. But in my experience over the last handful of games, they are always effective barring cold rolling (which is most good units). I usually leave them in deepstrike, they pop down where I need the firepower and unless I roll the stats on the weapons really bad, generally destroy or cripple what they target. Then they EC and do the same thing to another target. And yes most of the time they die the next round, however, generally it takes most of my opponents army to take them out, again unless I am rolling cold. Also, failure to kill all of them is a big deal as even just one left another turn can do some serious damage.
Finally I would like to point out that Oblits are one of the few units that are really good against both infantry and vehicles. They have 18 shots with 3, and they can have AT weapon level S, AP, D on those shots, making them effective against just about everything. Just my opinion.
Between those units there are 15 3+ T5 wounds. The Obliterators have 12 2+/5++ wounds. There isn't a ton of daylight between those two numbers.
Your surface level theorycrafting forgets that the Havocs are at 48" and can deploy out of LoS until they shoot. The Obliterators are deepstriking into no-mans land at best, with 24" range they are going to be a free target of whatever unit a competent opponent was planning to kill them with. And never mind the fact that the Obliterators optimal target got 1 or 2 free turns of play before the Obliterators had any impact on them.
Daedalus81 wrote: It's not always simple to remove Obliterators from the table.
Then you're bad at 40k, or you've already lost this game (which by turn 2 with CSM, also probably means you're pretty bad at 40k). I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's all there is to it. If you allowed Obliterators to land within striking distance of a 350 pts worth of optimal targets turn 2 but found yourself with no options left for deal with them, YOU. MESSED. UP. You either brought a gakky list, or played a good list poorly. Multiple options for dealing with Oblits for all armies, they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm not saying Obliterators are better than any possible unit. That isn't the point - nor should it be. Obliterators fill a role and they do it well. If you want your AV on the table plinking then by all means do havocs. If you want a more close assault style army then maybe obliterators are more appropriate.
Then you've completely warped and twisted what this argument was to begin with, as the only thing I weighed in on in this chain was whether or not Obliterators need to make their points back first turn. You can glance upwards slightly to confirm that for yourself. Seems like you were so caught up in arguing that these were fine that you forgot to check the posts you were actually responding to.
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Daedalus81 wrote: If your dice come in hot then you can outshine even lascannons.
And they can come in cold and completely flub in comparison to Las. This is another point that consistently escapes Dakka. OBLITERATORS DO NOT HAVE S8 AP2 D2 weapons. They can flub those dice easily, and if you roll a 1 for ANY of those numbers now even with another CP spare for a re-roll, you are effectively cutting your damage in half at best. Consistency is better, ESPECIALLY for a unit that gets a single turn to perform it's role.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Obliterators need to make their points back that turn. That shouldn't be a controversial statement.
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xeen wrote: I am not a big fan of math-hammer as you generally don't roll the dice enough in one game for the averages to matter, and things like 'laser cannons do x% more damage' is misleading as that is true against large models, but laser cannons are useless against a mob of 30 orks. Base on the games I have played I think that the Obliterates are worth 115 points. Could they be 105 or 110 and not be broken. Probably. But in my experience over the last handful of games, they are always effective barring cold rolling (which is most good units). I usually leave them in deepstrike, they pop down where I need the firepower and unless I roll the stats on the weapons really bad, generally destroy or cripple what they target. Then they EC and do the same thing to another target. And yes most of the time they die the next round, however, generally it takes most of my opponents army to take them out, again unless I am rolling cold. Also, failure to kill all of them is a big deal as even just one left another turn can do some serious damage.
Finally I would like to point out that Oblits are one of the few units that are really good against both infantry and vehicles. They have 18 shots with 3, and they can have AT weapon level S, AP, D on those shots, making them effective against just about everything. Just my opinion.
Even with prescience and 2+ to wounds - those 18 shots kill 12 Orks a turn. And now you are left 24" out from an Ork horde, with your 350 point 3man Obliterator unit.
Do I really have to spell out how this ends?
At least the Las can do it from 48", but if this is happening neither unit is doing what brought it for. Or at least, what you should have brought it for. Because you really shouldn't be bringing it for this, but some of you seem to have some pretty radical ideas on how 40k plays.
I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?
SHUPPET wrote: Your surface level theorycrafting forgets that the Havocs are at 48" and can deploy out of LoS until they shoot. The Obliterators are deepstriking into no-mans land at best, with 24" range they are going to be a free target of whatever unit a competent opponent was planning to kill them with. And never mind the fact that the Obliterators optimal target got 1 or 2 free turns of play before the Obliterators had any impact on them.
Hey, well, I guess all deepstriking is bad and I didn't bother taking an army that supports the role Obliterators fill.
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Then you're bad at 40k, or you've already lost this game (which by turn 2, also probably means you're pretty bad at 40k). I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's all there is to it. If you allowed Obliterators to land within striking distance of a 350 pts worth of optimal targets turn 2 but found yourself with no options left for deal with them, YOU. MESSED. UP. You either brought a gakky list, or played a good list poorly. Worst case they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.
THIS is surface level theorycrafting. Because as you know the opponent has the rest of his army, too. Usually they don't sit around doing nothing. Maybe that's just me though.
Then you've completely warped and twisted what this argument was to begin with, as the only thing I weighed in on in this chain was whether or not Obliterators need to make their points back first turn. You can glance upwards slightly to confirm that for yourself. Seems like you were so caught up in arguing that these were fine that you forgot to check the posts you were actually responding to.
Err, k.
I know it's fun to dumb things down and attempt to make basic unassailable assertions, but sometimes that gak don't fly.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?
What about screening? What about enemies long range AND close range shooting AND assault units? What about abilities like Forewarned? What about hinging an entire unit's efficiency on powers when so many armies are able to deny that? What about hinging so much efficiency on a single strat when two popular high-level armies now have a Vect? What about when your optimal target gets turn 2s of wrecking your army before you can even deal with it because your only answer has to come in through Deepstrike to get in range?
These are all things the Oblits have to deal with but have much less / zero impact on multiple units of Havocs, why aren't you mentioning them?
The point isn't always that you get to sit at 48" and free fire away while laughing in your helpless opponent's face, 40k is a game of back and forth. The point is that 48" gives you a LOT more room to play with than 24", and most definitely increases the survivability - even if some units will still be able to shoot back its a crapton better than what is most likely going to be the entire enemy groundforce and it's beyond absurd to me that people are actually arguing otherwise. Every day I'm feeling more and more disconnected from the discussions on here, it feels like way too much binary theorycraft and not enough playing.
Seabass wrote: Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++
Every other super-heavy in the game would like to chat about your 'dead piece' 'logic'.
That was sarcasm. I quite believe that the castellan is fine, even at 100 points more expensive and with a 4++. It's still an awful lot of killy packed into one hard to kill frame, 3++ be damned.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.
Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++
But, buffs/abilities and auras are a part of this as well as stratagems, so surely they have to be taken into consideration when factoring points cost. it makes sense to me that part of the cost for the new oblits is factored into the use of EC and VotLW (two very low cost stratagems in my view).
The reason you don't see them is Castellans and all the stuff taken to beat a Castellan hurts a Repulsor.
It's still NOT easy to kill. Any unit that can get it's points back on a T8 3+ model in one turn is doing pretty damn well.
A fully buffed Cawl's Castellan does in the 22 wound range to a Repulsor. "Fully" buffed Obliterators achieve that pretty easily. So, I find it a little silly to say Obliterators have no value especially when you're paying less than half the points.
I'm not really sure how hard they are to bring down. It feels like with the amount of AT, and the proliferation of high AP weapons, they come down pretty easy. (Though as someone did point out, the changes to AT weapons and platforms like dissie spam or the castellan may help them shine a bit more, and I would be very happy with that. I have two for my blood angels and love to field them, they are awesome looking models!)
whether it's the things that a Castellan would hunt, or the things that would hunt a Castellan, both will mulch a repulsor easily in one turn, probably two of them if enough buffs are layered. Meaning that an invuln is needed for them to be able to see a reasonable amount of play in any kind of competitive environment. So whether they are unplayable because they need an invuln (as I stated) or they are unplayable because the things that a Castellan wants to pick on or the things that pick on Castellans can eliminate Repulsors too easily, makes it kind of the same thing in my line of thinking.
Aslo, I'm not sure where you felt that i though that Oblits have no value, not at all, i think they likely have good value, I was just offering that the strats and the buffs that can be given to them is surely considered when they created their points cost.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?
What about screening? What about enemies long range AND close range shooting AND assault units? What about abilities like Forewarned? What about hinging an entire unit's efficiency on powers when so many armies are able to deny that? What about hinging so much efficiency on a single strat when two popular high-level armies now have a Vect? What about when your optimal target gets turn 2s of wrecking your army before you can even deal with it because your only answer has to come in through Deepstrike to get in range?
These are all things the Oblits have to deal with but have much less / zero impact on multiple units of Havocs, why aren't you mentioning them?
The point isn't always that you get to sit at 48" and free fire away while laughing in your helpless opponent's face, 40k is a game of back and forth. The point is that 48" gives you a LOT more room to play with than 24", and most definitely increases the survivability - even if some units will still be able to shoot back its a crapton better than what is most likely going to be the entire enemy groundforce and it's beyond absurd to me that people are actually arguing otherwise. Every day I'm feeling more and more disconnected from the discussions on here, it feels like way too much binary theorycraft and not enough playing.
I am just trying to get a clearer picture and brought up factors that seem important to consider. But coming up with straw men to refute is making me feel like your opinion is less valuable.
You know, despite your tone, for awhile there I thought you were actually contributing a counter-argument that mattered SHUPPET. But then you went and said something balls to the wall silly like this:
SHUPPET wrote: Multiple options for dealing with Oblits for all armies, they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.
If your list can't clear out a basic dime a dozen GEQ screen for a safe drop zone by turn 2, you're doing something...well I won't go so far as to say embarrassing, but it's probably not too far from that.
To everyone in this thread - there are two things I think you guys really need to consider.
1. You do not need to choose between Havocs or Oblits. If you decided to only go all in on one, then they can be handled pretty easily and all your posturing here was for nothing.
2. In 8th edition Warhammer 40k, your units will die. Plan ahead.
SHUPPET wrote: Your surface level theorycrafting forgets that the Havocs are at 48" and can deploy out of LoS until they shoot. The Obliterators are deepstriking into no-mans land at best, with 24" range they are going to be a free target of whatever unit a competent opponent was planning to kill them with. And never mind the fact that the Obliterators optimal target got 1 or 2 free turns of play before the Obliterators had any impact on them.
Hey, well, I guess all deepstriking is bad
I didn't even IMPLY this. Where did you read that? Obliterators are an extreme glass cannon unit so they aren't representative of every deepstrike unit at all, they also aren't an assault unit so they can't through themselves into combat, and I still never said deepstriking is bad, just that OBLITERATORS need to make their points back the same turn 99% of the time due to the nature of THEIR rules, and how THEY utilise deepstrike. Some of the strongest units in the game are deepstrikers. When you have to invent outright lies like this on someone else's behalf to even have anything resembling a counter argument, it's probably time to recognize you were wrong. Take a step back and look at your tactics here.
SHUPPET wrote: Then you've completely warped and twisted what this argument was to begin with, as the only thing I weighed in on in this chain was whether or not Obliterators need to make their points back first turn. You can glance upwards slightly to confirm that for yourself. Seems like you were so caught up in arguing that these were fine that you forgot to check the posts you were actually responding to.
Err, k.
I know it's fun to dumb things down and attempt to make basic unassailable assertions, but sometimes that gak don't fly.
Certainly seems to be a favored tactic of yours.
I mean, this isn't an opinion, this is objective fact, that literally was the only statement I made and was arguing, and the one you decided was a poor assessment, that you somehow forgot and tried to turn into something completely different, twice now. This revisionist history doesn't work when everything is just a few scrolls or a screenshot away:
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Lemondish wrote: You know, despite your tone, for awhile there I thought you were actually contributing a counter-argument that mattered SHUPPET. But then you went and said something balls to the wall silly like this:
SHUPPET wrote: Multiple options for dealing with Oblits for all armies, they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.
If your list can't clear out a basic dime a dozen GEQ screen for a safe drop zone by turn 2, you're doing something...well I won't go so far as to say embarrassing, but it's probably not too far from that.
Oh do you genuinely think that people are just running a single unit of Guardsmen? lol. You might want to take a look at what sort of lists are currently being played competitively. What sort of argument even is this?
The point is that basically anything can neuter an Obliterator by charging them, the humble guardsmen is the bottom of the barrel example, not "oh no I lost my Guardsmen, whatever will I do against Obliterators in combat!". You can use like, literally almost anything else lol. I'm going through recent results and can't find a single unit I wouldn't happily throw into Oblits.
How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
NinthMusketeer wrote: How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
I didn't even IMPLY this. Where did you read that? Obliterators are an extreme glass cannon unit so they aren't representative of every deepstrike unit at all, they also aren't an assault unit so they can't through themselves into combat, and I still never said deepstriking is bad, just that OBLITERATORS need to make their points back the same turn 99% of the time due to the nature of THEIR rules, and how THEY utilise deepstrike. Some of the strongest units in the game are deepstrikers. When you have to invent outright lies like this on someone else's behalf to even have anything resembling a counter argument, it's probably time to recognize you were wrong. Take a step back and look at your tactics here.
You cut off the rest of my sentence there.
Certainly seems to be a favored tactic of yours.
I mean, this isn't an opinion, this is objective fact, that literally was the only statement I made and was arguing, and the one you decided was a poor assessment, that you somehow forgot and tried to turn into something completely different, twice now. This revisionist history doesn't work when everything is just a few scrolls or a screenshot away:
ERR MAH GERD SHUPPET.
- Any unit can leave you at a deficit if it doesn't perform - it just so happens that obliterators synergize with stratagems in a way that makes that quite unlikely.
- Characterizing 12 2+/5++ T5 wounds as glass cannon and 15 3+ T5 wounds as NOT a glass cannon is a stretch (or in your counter example 10 wounds)
- Employing obliterators in a way where they can hit something worthwhile is not hard unless there's 80 IS in the way and you forgot to make a hole
- I never claimed Obliterators were better than everything, but that they're quite likely worth their points
NinthMusketeer wrote: How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
But that was your statement, that Oblits need to kill their points back in one turn or they are bad because they will get wiped by a decent list the next turn.
NinthMusketeer wrote: How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
But that was your statement, that Oblits need to kill their points back in one turn or they are bad because they will get wiped by a decent list the next turn.
I'm saying that I didn't say it's an objective fact, to someone who just said I did. What are you having trouble with here?
NinthMusketeer wrote: How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
Oh, well I misinterpreted. No need to be a dick about it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
Oh, well I misinterpreted. No need to be a dick about it.
You continually diverting into being nasty rather than addressing the questions raised, mostly.
You literally just accused me of strawman arguments and my statements being of zero worth, in response to my logical counterpoint to your deliberately slanted argument. Then when you go ahead and hit me with a complete strawman argument, and you call me a dick for pointing that outDrop the hypocrisy, thanks.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?
48" means any unit that shoots at havocs can be shot by havocs as well. Except havocs can stay out of LOS(you don't play on planet bowling ball don't you? IF you can't hide 5 basic dudes out of LOS your terrain plain SUCKS. No but's and if's about that)
NinthMusketeer wrote: How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.
Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
Oh, well I misinterpreted. No need to be a dick about it.
You continually diverting into being nasty rather than addressing the questions raised, mostly.
You literally just accused me of strawman arguments and my statements being of zero worth, in response to my logical counterpoint to your deliberately slanted argument. Then when you go ahead and hit me with a complete strawman argument, and you call me a dick for pointing that outDrop the hypocrisy, thanks.
I will happily explain out why that is not at all what I meant if you can be polite about it. In the meantime, suffice it to say this is not true.
I think it's pretty clear that oblitz WILL kill their points value / probably more when they drop - provided they have a big target to shoot at. With DS plus their range they really should. That is why they are good. They probably work best in combo with TS - for an additional reroll for you shots and because they bring a turn 1 deep strike option that can easily clear chaff and get locked in with something and DP to get in on anything that will attak your oblitz in cc - death hex something big turn 2 and just KISS IT GOODBYE.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?
48" means any unit that shoots at havocs can be shot by havocs as well. Except havocs can stay out of LOS(you don't play on planet bowling ball don't you? IF you can't hide 5 basic dudes out of LOS your terrain plain SUCKS. No but's and if's about that)
What I mean is that 48" range does not mean the enemy will be 48" away, just as we cannot assume the Obliterators will always be 24" away. 5 guys I can definitely see as being assumed as hiding, but this is 15 guys. With the terrain we have at my flgs could easily be possible, but not so much so that it should be baseline assumed. Regardless, the main crux of my point was that it takes (a not-insignificant) enemy effort to kill said oblits, which I did not see as being mentioned at all. If the oblits are swapped with havocs that enemy firepower does not vanish, it just means it kills something else.
