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That is a castellan without relic plasma and without shooting its missle too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?

Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.

That's with AVERAGE stats.

Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.

Lemondish wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
It's there, not in magenta for some reason though. Bottom right of the first page.

Likely it's because they considered the CSM book a "new book" rather than just an updated one.

Maybe. There's a ton of magenta in the rest of the same document though.

Probably because it was ready 2 weeks ago and they made edits in between.

Brand new FAQs are never magenta. That is done to indicate changes from a previous version. You won't see much in the first few pages because the first section of the document is for codex 2.0, as listed in the actual document itself. The first edition of the codex already had entries in the errata/FAQ and was included at the end, hence the magenta there.

*cough*

Allow me to quote from the introduction to the Astra Militarum FAQ/Errata document...

As they’re updated regularly, each has a version number; when changes are made, the version number will be updated, and any changes from the previous version will be highlighted in magenta.

Care to try that one again?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?

Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.

That's with AVERAGE stats.

Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.

Nah I agree average is 18.14 is it not? Assuming 2's rolled for all weapon stats.
18 shots, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's = 17.5 hits
wounding on a 3+ rerolling 1's = 13.61 wounds
5+ save = 9.07 get through
2 damage = 18.14 + dead repulsor?

Quick and dirty excel napkin maths ofc

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.

Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++

 Daedalus81 wrote:
That's 15 wounds from an unbuffed Castellan.

But, buffs/abilities and auras are a part of this as well as stratagems, so surely they have to be taken into consideration when factoring points cost. it makes sense to me that part of the cost for the new oblits is factored into the use of EC and VotLW (two very low cost stratagems in my view).

Seabass wrote:
Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++

Every other super-heavy in the game would like to chat about your 'dead piece' 'logic'.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?

Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.

That's with AVERAGE stats.

Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.

But that doesn't change the fact that you, on average, will more likely than not kill the Repulsor.

Seabass wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.

Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++

 Daedalus81 wrote:
That's 15 wounds from an unbuffed Castellan.

But, buffs/abilities and auras are a part of this as well as stratagems, so surely they have to be taken into consideration when factoring points cost. it makes sense to me that part of the cost for the new oblits is factored into the use of EC and VotLW (two very low cost stratagems in my view).

The reason you don't see them is Castellans and all the stuff taken to beat a Castellan hurts a Repulsor.

It's still NOT easy to kill. Any unit that can get it's points back on a T8 3+ model in one turn is doing pretty damn well.

A fully buffed Cawl's Castellan does in the 22 wound range to a Repulsor. "Fully" buffed Obliterators achieve that pretty easily. So, I find it a little silly to say Obliterators have no value especially when you're paying less than half the points.

You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

Quick question relating to the Castellan, is there still no way to get the Renegade Dominus a 4++ in the first place?

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?

Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.

That's with AVERAGE stats.

Across all stat possibilities, the average is lower. Notably because, while you can do less than 18 wounds, you can never do more than 18 wounds to a Repulsor.

But that doesn't change the fact that you, on average, will more likely than not kill the Repulsor.

No...you will on average kill 2 of them with double shooting. 600 points of tanks - gone - in 1 turn and people are trying to say the unit isn't worth it's points. It 1 rounds a knight if it has death hex on it or can't rotate...The unit is strong. It just needs CP expenditure to work...kind of like smash captains.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.

Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.

The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

It's an excellent return on points, regardless, combined with alpha strike capability.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Quick question relating to the Castellan, is there still no way to get the Renegade Dominus a 4++ in the first place?

Renegades get Rotate Ion Shields too

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Quick question relating to the Castellan, is there still no way to get the Renegade Dominus a 4++ in the first place?

Renegades get Rotate Ion Shields too

Is that in CA? I must have missed it. Thank you!

I ran a MATLAB script that can run the shooting of Obliterators a couple thousand times, considering the ability to re-roll stats and other strategem and psychic buffs.

It used the following sequence for using CP and Mutant Invigoration re-rolls:
If S<=8, and it's permitted to spend both, re-roll strength.
If S>8, AP<=1 and it's permitted to spend both, re-roll AP
If it's only permitted to spend one, and D<3, re-roll D.

An obliterator section with Mutant Invigoration, a CP Re-roll available, Cacophony, Veterans, Prescience, and Infernal Power averages about 42 wounds to a T8 3+ target.

An obliterator section with none seems to average only 8.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.

Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.

The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.

Alright. 563 points, 2 CP, two psychic powers (one WC 6, one WC 7) to have a 4/9 chance of killing a Repulsor.

Let's make that clear-all that, to kill a model that is AT MOST worth 317 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

I went back and reviewed your long list of the various outcomes and I think, bigger picture wise, you are correct. Of the 27 possible combinations of stats on the guns, the minority one shot a repulsor.

The issue is most people look at the use of average and apply a mean to the gun stats. Because of this people like myself considered average to be 2,2,2 on those grounds. But you're right that there is a lot of variance, which begs the question of when and where is their best application?

Dudeface wrote:
I went back and reviewed your long list of the various outcomes and I think, bigger picture wise, you are correct. Of the 27 possible combinations of stats on the guns, the minority one shot a repulsor.

The issue is most people look at the use of average and apply a mean to the gun stats. Because of this people like myself considered average to be 2,2,2 on those grounds. But you're right that there is a lot of variance, which begs the question of when and where is their best application?

In a tournament? Probably nothing-they're too random and unreliable to have the consistent victories needed there.

In a casual game, they'll do just fine, but that's true of everything from Deathstrikes to Grey Knights.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.

Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.

The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.

Alright. 563 points, 2 CP, two psychic powers (one WC 6, one WC 7) to have a 4/9 chance of killing a Repulsor.

Let's make that clear-all that, to kill a model that is AT MOST worth 317 points.

We get that support is required to do it. You are taking these units anyways and this is the most effective place to put them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

I went back and reviewed your long list of the various outcomes and I think, bigger picture wise, you are correct. Of the 27 possible combinations of stats on the guns, the minority one shot a repulsor.

The issue is most people look at the use of average and apply a mean to the gun stats. Because of this people like myself considered average to be 2,2,2 on those grounds. But you're right that there is a lot of variance, which begs the question of when and where is their best application?

Damage> AP> Str

 Dysartes wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
It's there, not in magenta for some reason though. Bottom right of the first page.

Likely it's because they considered the CSM book a "new book" rather than just an updated one.

Maybe. There's a ton of magenta in the rest of the same document though.

Probably because it was ready 2 weeks ago and they made edits in between.

Brand new FAQs are never magenta. That is done to indicate changes from a previous version. You won't see much in the first few pages because the first section of the document is for codex 2.0, as listed in the actual document itself. The first edition of the codex already had entries in the errata/FAQ and was included at the end, hence the magenta there.

*cough*

Allow me to quote from the introduction to the Astra Militarum FAQ/Errata document...

As they’re updated regularly, each has a version number; when changes are made, the version number will be updated, and any changes from the previous version will be highlighted in magenta.

Care to try that one again?

Why try again? That's needlessly irrelevant.

They said why they separated it in the FAQ. Sorry that it bothers you this bloody much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seabass wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.

Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++

I'm not sure this is true any longer. Almost all the ultra-efficient AT options just took a nosedive in efficiency, so non-invuln vehicles may actually break out into the realm of undefeated lists more frequently at GTs. Oblitz may therefore become the next big AT threat that finds success, but there's a few huge assumptions being made here. When you're committing so many points, buffs, and attention into a single fire and die tactic, it's easy to lose the cons when the maths shows you all the pros.

This tactic seems pretty easy to see coming and doesn't have too many ways to get into range with the full package. I'm not convinced its as effective as the maths alone suggest, largely due to factors we can't emulate.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

I'm not sure why you're willfully ignoring the most powerful and easiest buff available to them, but including buffs that require a character.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes. 3 CP and some psychic powers to average kills on multiple 300 point + models. That is how you use this unit.

Realistically - The best way to handle oblitz would be to reduce their cost and have them not count as units after they are deployed. Kind of like eldar support weapons.

The issue is being a unit so. +1 to hit +1 to W / shoot twice. Basically automatic hits and wounds on 36 powerful shots. It is too much.

Alright. 563 points, 2 CP, two psychic powers (one WC 6, one WC 7) to have a 4/9 chance of killing a Repulsor.

Let's make that clear-all that, to kill a model that is AT MOST worth 317 points.

You have a lot better than a 4-in-9 chance of killing a Repulsor if you brought both Sorcerers.

Here's my simulation results [1000 trials ea]:


It looks like a Obliterator section with: Endless Cacophony, Mutant Invigoration [priorities: D>S>AP], Prescience, Veterans of the Long War, Infernal Power, and the option to use the CP re-roll [That's 3 psychic powers from 2 casters and 3-4 CP] results in like a 90% chance to flatten a repulsor. [Also, why are Repulsors our standard of lethal efficiency, as opposed to a 4++ Knight or something. Did I miss something, and overnight Repulsors become the new hotness?]

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

I'm not sure why you're willfully ignoring the most powerful and easiest buff available to them, but including buffs that require a character.

Because to determine how EC helps, you just double the total.

With EC and all the other buffs, they will pretty consistently wreck a 300 point vehicle, for 500+ points and 4-6 CP.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You kill a Repulsor with average rolls (after stats) on 12/27 or 4/9 stat rolls.

Less than a 50% chance unless your rolling is hot.

And then you add CaC and VotLW. Voila. Dead Repulsor.

Obliterators are good, because they can receive force multipliers in a way that makes them very strong.

That was WITH every single buff (minus Endless Cacophony).

Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding at +1, rerolling ones.

I'm not sure why you're willfully ignoring the most powerful and easiest buff available to them, but including buffs that require a character.

Because to determine how EC helps, you just double the total.

With EC and all the other buffs, they will pretty consistently wreck a 300 point vehicle, for 500+ points and 4-6 CP.

First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.

Second, the Obliterator section fully buffed for 540 points w/ characters comes close, with a better than 50/50 shot of doing 3 Leman Russ's [~500-600 points] worth of damage in a single round of firing [Disclaimer: Katherine recommends not risking variance, and sticking to the much safer and probable 2 Leman Russ tanks engaged and destroyed per turn]. It is virtually guaranteed to wreck a Repulsor.

Well it used to be rhinos....But these guys will easily kill 3-4 rhinos a turn...Or 4-5 dreads....

Oblitz are terrible.

I demand that all Baneblade Variants now get a 4++ simply because it's soooooo worthless. Seriously. Grow up.

Having played against these just the once in a tournament since they came out (TO ruled they were 115 pts each) I would say that they are eye-wateringly devastating when they drop in fully buffed and much harder to deal with due to the CC threat - but do rather drop off an efficiency cliff if your opponent can clip their wings by shutting down their buffs.

Used right they are game-changingly powerful so I think they have to be at something fairly close to their current points cost. There are not many units in the game which can - with a few CP added - shoot their own points value off the table in a single turn. That is almost crazy powerful when they work as intended.

If you want to run them unbuffed then you are just doing it wrong and you should probably use different units that actually function well without support. It is a powerful unit that you need to think about building your list and your tactics around; it is not just 345 points of stuff you can sling in your list and pop on the table and expect it to win the game for you.