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Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
Absolutely, they were undercosted for their firepower, now with mellee OMG, OP now 12% [ 26 ]
Balanced all around 42% [ 93 ]
Underwhelming 35% [ 79 ]
Garbage, won't field them now. 11% [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 223
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Afraid the maths has just taken me from "they are overcosted" to "wow, they can do that much? 115 points if fine."

I think the issue is that at 115 points they are relatively fragile (2+/5++ kind of fragile - but nearly 29 points per wound isn't good). If your dice are cold its going to hurt when they get nuked next turn. But if your dice are vaguely hot they are horrendous.

I don't think the "they only work with buffs and CP" argument holds up. See Ork Looters. This adding HQ costs is also misleading - because its the marginal HQ cost for the unit, not the absolute one. (This applies equally to say guardsmen "oh company commanders cost points" - yes. So do all HQ options - no one to my knowledge yet has the option to take a 0 point smear on the ground...)
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Tyel wrote:
Afraid the maths has just taken me from "they are overcosted" to "wow, they can do that much? 115 points if fine."

I think the issue is that at 115 points they are relatively fragile (2+/5++ kind of fragile - but nearly 29 points per wound isn't good). If your dice are cold its going to hurt when they get nuked next turn. But if your dice are vaguely hot they are horrendous.

I don't think the "they only work with buffs and CP" argument holds up. See Ork Looters. This adding HQ costs is also misleading - because its the marginal HQ cost for the unit, not the absolute one. (This applies equally to say guardsmen "oh company commanders cost points" - yes. So do all HQ options - no one to my knowledge yet has the option to take a 0 point smear on the ground...)

Indeed - It's the lets include the mandatory HQ options in the equation argument and it's just bad.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




East of England

To those saying 'oh it's just slaaneshi obits' well yes, quite. In much the same way that you never saw imperium Castellans. But anyone arguing Castellans weren't good because 'it's admech castellans, don't generalise' would have gotten a long cold stare from most players. Of course we're talking about squeezing the unit till the pips squeak, we're math-hammering a unit's high-end competitiveness here. I think it's fair to a) assume the unit is specced correctly and b) is receiving the buffs that unlock its potential.
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.

Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 SHUPPET wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.

Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.


I feel like that's a poor assessment.

3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3

3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1

These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.

What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -

16 * .666 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
16 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 3.5

So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.

And here we can see the power of Obliterators:

36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21

1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload

The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 23:40:23


   
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In My Lab

Except in the same way that you can say "Guardsmen with FRF,SRF are 55 points for 10 dudes" you can say mostly the same for Oblits with Psyker buffs. Those aren't auras-they're powers.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






They honestly don't have to wait. Between the -1 to hit from alpha legion - -1 to hit from the prayer. Wartime - ability to advance and shoot. Their threat range is approximately. 14+24. Or basically...the only things they can't threaten turn 1 are artillery?


Some games that is fine.

Some games you need to DS them. Which is true of just about every units of it's type.

I mean....no one is putting a 30 man devil gaunt on the table to start the game.

And 24 " is not sucide range.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Except in the same way that you can say "Guardsmen with FRF,SRF are 55 points for 10 dudes" you can say mostly the same for Oblits with Psyker buffs. Those aren't auras-they're powers.

They shouldn't say that ether.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 23:48:23


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 JNAProductions wrote:
Except in the same way that you can say "Guardsmen with FRF,SRF are 55 points for 10 dudes" you can say mostly the same for Oblits with Psyker buffs. Those aren't auras-they're powers.


55 points for 11 dudes, one who doesn't do anything.

You definitely should consider the cost of support assets when considering the worth of a unit, because if it's going to need support, but it needs too much support, you still don't want it. And generally, the cost of a support ability should be paid by the unit providing the support, but in the case of a unit like Obliterators that has extreme power density, they also should pay for the sheer potential they have to be buffed non-specifically. Especially because hero units don't need to be more expensive as is.

That said, with no points other than CP spend on support Oblitz are pretty terrifying, and with full support they can get really close to or surpass the total cost of them and their support in a single round.

I'd say there's still questions, though. Based on the graph I posted on the last page, it looks like the effect of Precience and the combined effect of the MoP's powers are about equal. The Sorcerer has another power to support a different unit in a different way [or buff your oblitz with something else], so he seems definitely worth taking to support the battery. However, while adding the MoP adds to the unit's power, he might not be worth it since he doesn't have a whole lot to do other than buff the obliterators. Does he add enough to the squad? I don't know, but the squad is already terrifying, and there's good argument that you shouldn't be trying for 3 leman-russes a turn and should stick with a secure 2 and spend the MoP's points on other assets, or defensive support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 23:54:40


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.

Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.


I feel like that's a poor assessment.

3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3

3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1

These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.

What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -

16 * .666 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
16 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 3.5

So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.

And here we can see the power of Obliterators:

36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21

1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload

The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.


I stand by my original idea. They shouldn't be 115 and they shouldn't be a unit. They should be like carnifex and split off once they are deployed. That way they can have a fair price point and not take advantage of absurd buffs. Lets get real...these buffs are absurd. We are talking about 400% damage increase...

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
I stand by my original idea. They shouldn't be 115 and they shouldn't be a unit. They should be like carnifex and split off once they are deployed. That way they can have a fair price point and not take advantage of absurd buffs. Lets get real...these buffs are absurd. We are talking about 400% damage increase...
I can actually agree with you there. That'd be a good way to make balancing them easier.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.

Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.


I feel like that's a poor assessment.

3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3

3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1

These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.

What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -

16 * .666 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
16 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 3.5

So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.

And here we can see the power of Obliterators:

36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21

1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload

The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.



My assessment was accurate, your one is extremely poor. Obliterators skip the first turn. By your own measure they come down turn 2 and STILL have slightly lower impact than Havocs unless you buff them, and only slightly higher impact than unbuffed Havocs if you do. And then from every turn going forward, Havocs value continues multiplying from there, because Havocs are far far FAR more likely to survive than a single squad of Obliterators, and anyone saying otherwise doesn't play CSM - let alone the fact that there's 3 squads of them compared to 1. And thats Havocs, they aren't even a top unit. Also, are autocannons even the optimal loadout here? Two squads with Lascannons are the same price range and do 6.22 wounds a turn and have higher returns from buffs - 150% as much damage over the first two turns as the Obliterators did. With buffs they are doing 25.66 damage over two turns, more again than the Obliterators.


I'm sorry, but acting like Obliterators DON'T have to make their points back in the turn they come down 99% of the time, is just flat out wrong. They aren't a durable fire magnet, they are a big investment in damage that spikes your output at turn 2 and doesn't coast anymore further than that. It's insane to try and argue that they can somehow be worth their points if they come down and don't make them back that turn, that is absolutely not their role, and you are either playing the unit very wrong, or really messing up in playing against them.

The more I see these arguments, the more I'm convinced people on here spend way too much time theorycrafting and not enough time playing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 00:39:59


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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What are the numbers on durability for oblits vs havocs?

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 SHUPPET wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

First off, most units aren't expected to recover their cost in a single turn.

Most units don't have to wait to turn 2 just to deepstrike into suicide range with 12 T5 wounds and a bad invul to get their job done. If Oblits aren't making their points back turn 1 then they are leaving you at a deficit.


I feel like that's a poor assessment.

3x5 AC Havocs
24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3

3 Oblits
18 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 2 = 8.1

These are the same cost. The havocs can do 10.6 in two turns if they are all still alive. So, the obliterators do 80% the damage in one turn than havocs do in two.

What about CaC and VotLW? Well only one havoc unit can take those, so -

16 * .666 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5.3
16 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 3.5

So Havocs do 8.8 when you're pushing them to the max or 17.6 in two turns.

And here we can see the power of Obliterators:

36 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 21

1) They did 20% more damage in one turn than havocs did in two
2) They spent half the CP to do it
3) They weren't able to be shot off the board until they decided to drop their payload

The more people argue this the more I lean towards 115 being the correct price.



My assessment was accurate, your one is extremely poor. Obliterators skip the first turn. By your own measure they come down turn 2 and STILL have slightly lower impact than Havocs unless you buff them, and only slightly higher impact than unbuffed Havocs if you do. And then from every turn going forward, Havocs value continues multiplying from there, because Havocs are far far FAR more likely to survive than a single squad of Obliterators, and anyone saying otherwise doesn't play CSM - let alone the fact that there's 3 squads of them compared to 1. And thats Havocs, they aren't even a top unit. Also, are autocannons even the optimal loadout here? Two squads with Lascannons are the same price range and do 6.22 wounds a turn and have higher returns from buffs - 150% as much damage over the first two turns as the Obliterators did. With buffs they are doing 25.66 damage over two turns, more again than the Obliterators.


I'm sorry, but acting like Obliterators DON'T have to make their points back in the turn they come down 99% of the time, is just flat out wrong. They aren't a durable fire magnet, they are a big investment in damage that spikes your output at turn 2 and doesn't coast anymore further than that. It's insane to try and argue that they can somehow be worth their points if they come down and don't make them back that turn, that is absolutely not their role, and you are either playing the unit very wrong, or really messing up in playing against them.

The more I see these arguments, the more I'm convinced people on here spend way too much time theorycrafting and not enough time playing.


I wouldn't call 20% slightly higher, but I guess that comes down to opinion. If your dice come in hot then you can outshine even lascannons.

Havocs will die. Lascannon havocs will die more.

Between those units there are 15 3+ T5 wounds. The Obliterators have 12 2+/5++ wounds. There isn't a ton of daylight between those two numbers. It is further complicated if your opponent has other targets that need to take AV fire as well.

It's not always simple to remove Obliterators from the table.

I'm not saying Obliterators are better than any possible unit. That isn't the point - nor should it be. Obliterators fill a role and they do it well. If you want your AV on the table plinking then by all means do havocs. If you want a more close assault style army then maybe obliterators are more appropriate.



   
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I am not a big fan of math-hammer as you generally don't roll the dice enough in one game for the averages to matter, and things like 'laser cannons do x% more damage' is misleading as that is true against large models, but laser cannons are useless against a mob of 30 orks. Base on the games I have played I think that the Obliterates are worth 115 points. Could they be 105 or 110 and not be broken. Probably. But in my experience over the last handful of games, they are always effective barring cold rolling (which is most good units). I usually leave them in deepstrike, they pop down where I need the firepower and unless I roll the stats on the weapons really bad, generally destroy or cripple what they target. Then they EC and do the same thing to another target. And yes most of the time they die the next round, however, generally it takes most of my opponents army to take them out, again unless I am rolling cold. Also, failure to kill all of them is a big deal as even just one left another turn can do some serious damage.

Finally I would like to point out that Oblits are one of the few units that are really good against both infantry and vehicles. They have 18 shots with 3, and they can have AT weapon level S, AP, D on those shots, making them effective against just about everything. Just my opinion.

   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Daedalus81 wrote:


Between those units there are 15 3+ T5 wounds. The Obliterators have 12 2+/5++ wounds. There isn't a ton of daylight between those two numbers.

Your surface level theorycrafting forgets that the Havocs are at 48" and can deploy out of LoS until they shoot. The Obliterators are deepstriking into no-mans land at best, with 24" range they are going to be a free target of whatever unit a competent opponent was planning to kill them with. And never mind the fact that the Obliterators optimal target got 1 or 2 free turns of play before the Obliterators had any impact on them.



 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's not always simple to remove Obliterators from the table.

Then you're bad at 40k, or you've already lost this game (which by turn 2 with CSM, also probably means you're pretty bad at 40k). I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's all there is to it. If you allowed Obliterators to land within striking distance of a 350 pts worth of optimal targets turn 2 but found yourself with no options left for deal with them, YOU. MESSED. UP. You either brought a gakky list, or played a good list poorly. Multiple options for dealing with Oblits for all armies, they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.




 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm not saying Obliterators are better than any possible unit. That isn't the point - nor should it be. Obliterators fill a role and they do it well. If you want your AV on the table plinking then by all means do havocs. If you want a more close assault style army then maybe obliterators are more appropriate.

Then you've completely warped and twisted what this argument was to begin with, as the only thing I weighed in on in this chain was whether or not Obliterators need to make their points back first turn. You can glance upwards slightly to confirm that for yourself. Seems like you were so caught up in arguing that these were fine that you forgot to check the posts you were actually responding to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
If your dice come in hot then you can outshine even lascannons.

And they can come in cold and completely flub in comparison to Las. This is another point that consistently escapes Dakka. OBLITERATORS DO NOT HAVE S8 AP2 D2 weapons. They can flub those dice easily, and if you roll a 1 for ANY of those numbers now even with another CP spare for a re-roll, you are effectively cutting your damage in half at best. Consistency is better, ESPECIALLY for a unit that gets a single turn to perform it's role.



I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Obliterators need to make their points back that turn. That shouldn't be a controversial statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 xeen wrote:
I am not a big fan of math-hammer as you generally don't roll the dice enough in one game for the averages to matter, and things like 'laser cannons do x% more damage' is misleading as that is true against large models, but laser cannons are useless against a mob of 30 orks. Base on the games I have played I think that the Obliterates are worth 115 points. Could they be 105 or 110 and not be broken. Probably. But in my experience over the last handful of games, they are always effective barring cold rolling (which is most good units). I usually leave them in deepstrike, they pop down where I need the firepower and unless I roll the stats on the weapons really bad, generally destroy or cripple what they target. Then they EC and do the same thing to another target. And yes most of the time they die the next round, however, generally it takes most of my opponents army to take them out, again unless I am rolling cold. Also, failure to kill all of them is a big deal as even just one left another turn can do some serious damage.

Finally I would like to point out that Oblits are one of the few units that are really good against both infantry and vehicles. They have 18 shots with 3, and they can have AT weapon level S, AP, D on those shots, making them effective against just about everything. Just my opinion.



Even with prescience and 2+ to wounds - those 18 shots kill 12 Orks a turn. And now you are left 24" out from an Ork horde, with your 350 point 3man Obliterator unit.


Do I really have to spell out how this ends?



At least the Las can do it from 48", but if this is happening neither unit is doing what brought it for. Or at least, what you should have brought it for. Because you really shouldn't be bringing it for this, but some of you seem to have some pretty radical ideas on how 40k plays.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 01:27:33


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 SHUPPET wrote:
Your surface level theorycrafting forgets that the Havocs are at 48" and can deploy out of LoS until they shoot. The Obliterators are deepstriking into no-mans land at best, with 24" range they are going to be a free target of whatever unit a competent opponent was planning to kill them with. And never mind the fact that the Obliterators optimal target got 1 or 2 free turns of play before the Obliterators had any impact on them.


Hey, well, I guess all deepstriking is bad and I didn't bother taking an army that supports the role Obliterators fill.

Spoiler:
Then you're bad at 40k, or you've already lost this game (which by turn 2, also probably means you're pretty bad at 40k). I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's all there is to it. If you allowed Obliterators to land within striking distance of a 350 pts worth of optimal targets turn 2 but found yourself with no options left for deal with them, YOU. MESSED. UP. You either brought a gakky list, or played a good list poorly. Worst case they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.


THIS is surface level theorycrafting. Because as you know the opponent has the rest of his army, too. Usually they don't sit around doing nothing. Maybe that's just me though.


Then you've completely warped and twisted what this argument was to begin with, as the only thing I weighed in on in this chain was whether or not Obliterators need to make their points back first turn. You can glance upwards slightly to confirm that for yourself. Seems like you were so caught up in arguing that these were fine that you forgot to check the posts you were actually responding to.


Err, k.

I know it's fun to dumb things down and attempt to make basic unassailable assertions, but sometimes that gak don't fly.

   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?

What about screening? What about enemies long range AND close range shooting AND assault units? What about abilities like Forewarned? What about hinging an entire unit's efficiency on powers when so many armies are able to deny that? What about hinging so much efficiency on a single strat when two popular high-level armies now have a Vect? What about when your optimal target gets turn 2s of wrecking your army before you can even deal with it because your only answer has to come in through Deepstrike to get in range?

These are all things the Oblits have to deal with but have much less / zero impact on multiple units of Havocs, why aren't you mentioning them?


The point isn't always that you get to sit at 48" and free fire away while laughing in your helpless opponent's face, 40k is a game of back and forth. The point is that 48" gives you a LOT more room to play with than 24", and most definitely increases the survivability - even if some units will still be able to shoot back its a crapton better than what is most likely going to be the entire enemy groundforce and it's beyond absurd to me that people are actually arguing otherwise. Every day I'm feeling more and more disconnected from the discussions on here, it feels like way too much binary theorycraft and not enough playing.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++


Every other super-heavy in the game would like to chat about your 'dead piece' 'logic'.


That was sarcasm. I quite believe that the castellan is fine, even at 100 points more expensive and with a 4++. It's still an awful lot of killy packed into one hard to kill frame, 3++ be damned.


Daedalus81 wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.


Because it is. With no invuln and a 3+, it is prey to anything str 8 or higher with a -2 or better AP value. There is a very good reason why, even after a massive 40+ point decrease, you will only ever see them at the casual tables or in the lower brackets, save for the one really cagey UM player playing them with Gulliman. Even then, I've only ever heard of that doing really well once or twice. Put simply, they just don't have an linvuln, and an invuln is required to make large point investments worthwhile in my point of view. Its why the Castellan is a "dead piece" now that it cant have a 3++ and ONLY gets a 4++

 Daedalus81 wrote:
That's 15 wounds from an unbuffed Castellan.


But, buffs/abilities and auras are a part of this as well as stratagems, so surely they have to be taken into consideration when factoring points cost. it makes sense to me that part of the cost for the new oblits is factored into the use of EC and VotLW (two very low cost stratagems in my view).


The reason you don't see them is Castellans and all the stuff taken to beat a Castellan hurts a Repulsor.

It's still NOT easy to kill. Any unit that can get it's points back on a T8 3+ model in one turn is doing pretty damn well.

A fully buffed Cawl's Castellan does in the 22 wound range to a Repulsor. "Fully" buffed Obliterators achieve that pretty easily. So, I find it a little silly to say Obliterators have no value especially when you're paying less than half the points.



I'm not really sure how hard they are to bring down. It feels like with the amount of AT, and the proliferation of high AP weapons, they come down pretty easy. (Though as someone did point out, the changes to AT weapons and platforms like dissie spam or the castellan may help them shine a bit more, and I would be very happy with that. I have two for my blood angels and love to field them, they are awesome looking models!)

whether it's the things that a Castellan would hunt, or the things that would hunt a Castellan, both will mulch a repulsor easily in one turn, probably two of them if enough buffs are layered. Meaning that an invuln is needed for them to be able to see a reasonable amount of play in any kind of competitive environment. So whether they are unplayable because they need an invuln (as I stated) or they are unplayable because the things that a Castellan wants to pick on or the things that pick on Castellans can eliminate Repulsors too easily, makes it kind of the same thing in my line of thinking.

Aslo, I'm not sure where you felt that i though that Oblits have no value, not at all, i think they likely have good value, I was just offering that the strats and the buffs that can be given to them is surely considered when they created their points cost.
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?

What about screening? What about enemies long range AND close range shooting AND assault units? What about abilities like Forewarned? What about hinging an entire unit's efficiency on powers when so many armies are able to deny that? What about hinging so much efficiency on a single strat when two popular high-level armies now have a Vect? What about when your optimal target gets turn 2s of wrecking your army before you can even deal with it because your only answer has to come in through Deepstrike to get in range?

These are all things the Oblits have to deal with but have much less / zero impact on multiple units of Havocs, why aren't you mentioning them?


The point isn't always that you get to sit at 48" and free fire away while laughing in your helpless opponent's face, 40k is a game of back and forth. The point is that 48" gives you a LOT more room to play with than 24", and most definitely increases the survivability - even if some units will still be able to shoot back its a crapton better than what is most likely going to be the entire enemy groundforce and it's beyond absurd to me that people are actually arguing otherwise. Every day I'm feeling more and more disconnected from the discussions on here, it feels like way too much binary theorycraft and not enough playing.
I am just trying to get a clearer picture and brought up factors that seem important to consider. But coming up with straw men to refute is making me feel like your opinion is less valuable.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
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Ottawa

You know, despite your tone, for awhile there I thought you were actually contributing a counter-argument that mattered SHUPPET. But then you went and said something balls to the wall silly like this:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Multiple options for dealing with Oblits for all armies, they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.


If your list can't clear out a basic dime a dozen GEQ screen for a safe drop zone by turn 2, you're doing something...well I won't go so far as to say embarrassing, but it's probably not too far from that.

To everyone in this thread - there are two things I think you guys really need to consider.

1. You do not need to choose between Havocs or Oblits. If you decided to only go all in on one, then they can be handled pretty easily and all your posturing here was for nothing.

2. In 8th edition Warhammer 40k, your units will die. Plan ahead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 01:52:03


 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Your surface level theorycrafting forgets that the Havocs are at 48" and can deploy out of LoS until they shoot. The Obliterators are deepstriking into no-mans land at best, with 24" range they are going to be a free target of whatever unit a competent opponent was planning to kill them with. And never mind the fact that the Obliterators optimal target got 1 or 2 free turns of play before the Obliterators had any impact on them.


Hey, well, I guess all deepstriking is bad

I didn't even IMPLY this. Where did you read that? Obliterators are an extreme glass cannon unit so they aren't representative of every deepstrike unit at all, they also aren't an assault unit so they can't through themselves into combat, and I still never said deepstriking is bad, just that OBLITERATORS need to make their points back the same turn 99% of the time due to the nature of THEIR rules, and how THEY utilise deepstrike. Some of the strongest units in the game are deepstrikers. When you have to invent outright lies like this on someone else's behalf to even have anything resembling a counter argument, it's probably time to recognize you were wrong. Take a step back and look at your tactics here.


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Then you've completely warped and twisted what this argument was to begin with, as the only thing I weighed in on in this chain was whether or not Obliterators need to make their points back first turn. You can glance upwards slightly to confirm that for yourself. Seems like you were so caught up in arguing that these were fine that you forgot to check the posts you were actually responding to.


Err, k.

I know it's fun to dumb things down and attempt to make basic unassailable assertions, but sometimes that gak don't fly.

Certainly seems to be a favored tactic of yours.

I mean, this isn't an opinion, this is objective fact, that literally was the only statement I made and was arguing, and the one you decided was a poor assessment, that you somehow forgot and tried to turn into something completely different, twice now. This revisionist history doesn't work when everything is just a few scrolls or a screenshot away:

Spoiler:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lemondish wrote:
You know, despite your tone, for awhile there I thought you were actually contributing a counter-argument that mattered SHUPPET. But then you went and said something balls to the wall silly like this:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Multiple options for dealing with Oblits for all armies, they can never fall back and shoot, literally a well placed squad or two of Guardsmen can neuter them for the rest of the game.


If your list can't clear out a basic dime a dozen GEQ screen for a safe drop zone by turn 2, you're doing something...well I won't go so far as to say embarrassing, but it's probably not too far from that.


Oh do you genuinely think that people are just running a single unit of Guardsmen? lol. You might want to take a look at what sort of lists are currently being played competitively. What sort of argument even is this?

The point is that basically anything can neuter an Obliterator by charging them, the humble guardsmen is the bottom of the barrel example, not "oh no I lost my Guardsmen, whatever will I do against Obliterators in combat!". You can use like, literally almost anything else lol. I'm going through recent results and can't find a single unit I wouldn't happily throw into Oblits.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 01:54:13


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in au
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.

Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 02:03:46


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:

I didn't even IMPLY this. Where did you read that? Obliterators are an extreme glass cannon unit so they aren't representative of every deepstrike unit at all, they also aren't an assault unit so they can't through themselves into combat, and I still never said deepstriking is bad, just that OBLITERATORS need to make their points back the same turn 99% of the time due to the nature of THEIR rules, and how THEY utilise deepstrike. Some of the strongest units in the game are deepstrikers. When you have to invent outright lies like this on someone else's behalf to even have anything resembling a counter argument, it's probably time to recognize you were wrong. Take a step back and look at your tactics here.


You cut off the rest of my sentence there.


Certainly seems to be a favored tactic of yours.

I mean, this isn't an opinion, this is objective fact, that literally was the only statement I made and was arguing, and the one you decided was a poor assessment, that you somehow forgot and tried to turn into something completely different, twice now. This revisionist history doesn't work when everything is just a few scrolls or a screenshot away:


ERR MAH GERD SHUPPET.

- Any unit can leave you at a deficit if it doesn't perform - it just so happens that obliterators synergize with stratagems in a way that makes that quite unlikely.
- Characterizing 12 2+/5++ T5 wounds as glass cannon and 15 3+ T5 wounds as NOT a glass cannon is a stretch (or in your counter example 10 wounds)
- Employing obliterators in a way where they can hit something worthwhile is not hard unless there's 80 IS in the way and you forgot to make a hole
- I never claimed Obliterators were better than everything, but that they're quite likely worth their points



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 02:16:25


   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.

Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.

But that was your statement, that Oblits need to kill their points back in one turn or they are bad because they will get wiped by a decent list the next turn.

Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 
   
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 mew28 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.

Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.

But that was your statement, that Oblits need to kill their points back in one turn or they are bad because they will get wiped by a decent list the next turn.


I'm saying that I didn't say it's an objective fact, to someone who just said I did. What are you having trouble with here?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 02:20:56


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.

Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
Oh, well I misinterpreted. No need to be a dick about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:
What are you having trouble with here?
You continually diverting into being nasty rather than addressing the questions raised, mostly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 02:23:21


"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
How is it objective fact that an Obliterator unit must kill it's points worth in one turn to be worthwhile? I am pretty sure there are situations where the unit could not do that and still be worth taking. Even the tactical value of having something that shows up and says "you have to kill me" is considerable.

Please don't use the word strawman again, you don't get to with arguments like this and your last one. I most definitely wasn't saying that it's an objective fact they have to do this. As absurd as the counter-argument is that Obliterators are getting multiple turns with any sort of consistency against a competent opponent, while I do think that is flat wrong, I still respect that it's just my opinion and did not describe my counter argument as objective fact. What I said was an objective fact is that THIS IS WHAT MY ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, in direct response to someone trying to warp it into something else entirely and imply that I was lying when I said that this was my argument. Hence the screenshot confirming it. Either spend more time reading or stop twisting my statements into something else.
Oh, well I misinterpreted. No need to be a dick about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:
What are you having trouble with here?
You continually diverting into being nasty rather than addressing the questions raised, mostly.

You literally just accused me of strawman arguments and my statements being of zero worth, in response to my logical counterpoint to your deliberately slanted argument. Then when you go ahead and hit me with a complete strawman argument, and you call me a dick for pointing that outDrop the hypocrisy, thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 02:36:30


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think hand-waving oblits as 'they die and the effort it takes to kill them is not worth mentioning' is oversimplifying. As is saying havocs can be assumed as deployed 48" away out of LoS. Like, the closest unit to them happens to be 48" away and it is exactly the unit they want to shoot? What about enemy long-range shooting, or LoS denial?


48" means any unit that shoots at havocs can be shot by havocs as well. Except havocs can stay out of LOS(you don't play on planet bowling ball don't you? IF you can't hide 5 basic dudes out of LOS your terrain plain SUCKS. No but's and if's about that)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 03:30:15


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/09/12/tneva82-minas-tirith-vs-isengard/ <- lotr painting blog

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