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Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
Absolutely, they were undercosted for their firepower, now with mellee OMG, OP now 12% [ 26 ]
Balanced all around 42% [ 93 ]
Underwhelming 35% [ 79 ]
Garbage, won't field them now. 11% [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 223
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Livermore, Ca

I'm going to start off with... twice the cost to get -1 ap combat weapons on a slow unit, that isn't likely to see combat...

Its possible I missed something, but at their cost I don't see myself fielding them, unless I'm desperate for deepstriking.



* I did mean to say at 115ppm. I know that the Chaos Codex 2.0 was a typo (thanks for the correction).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:01:50


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Tampa, FL

Not at all. 65 was too cheap but 115 is way too much. should be like 90ish IMHO.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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I'd definitely say no, but I also fully believe the units in that box were pre-CA18 etc. I think they'll all see a points drop later this year.

I'd say, despite amazing guns, they're probably 85-95 a model realistically.

Personally I don't care about the new models so I'll be fielding my old Oblits with old stats and points costs.

PS: Yes you did miss something, if you skipped the two additional shots, the bonus toughness, and the bonus wound...it's more than some close combat weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 17:30:49


 
   
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arent they the same cost but improves stat line ??

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On moon miranda.

They should really be more like 85/90pts at their current stats, not 115. They are really expensive for what they offer.

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Tampa, FL

 Argive wrote:
arent they the same cost but improves stat line ??


Yes and no. Shadowspear had them as unit size 1-3 at 115ppm. The CSM Codex 2.0 has what is likely a typo and lists them back at 65ppm with a unit size of 3. RAW, Codex 2.0 is the most recent publication so technically until it's FAQ'd yes, they are the same cost but improved stats and require 3 models in a unit.

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Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.

 
   
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Tampa, FL

 Elbows wrote:
Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.


Yes, but by RAW GW says the latest publication takes precedence. So they are technically correct (the best kind of correct) and many stores, including my own, are ruling that the Codex takes precedence until FAQ'd for events. So, for example, there is a tournament next weekend. Unless it's FAQ'd beforehand, Obliterators are 65ppm with a unit size of 3 until otherwise stated, because that's RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:03:02


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Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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 Elbows wrote:
Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.


Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
   
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Screaming Shining Spear






Yeah i would argue that some mini book you get with shadowspear is not going to take precedence over the actual codex that was published afterwards.

GW is at it again.... *Sigh*

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 Samuhell wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.


Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
"People who follow the rules are bad." Seems legit. I can only hope GW remember to actually fix this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:17:36


+++++There are currently NINETY FOUR (94) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++ (Discord: BaconCatBug#0294)
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY; and Scout Sentinels may use "Go! Recon!" to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the shooting phase.
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 Samuhell wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.


Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit


Sure, and people are welcome to hide behind that excuse as they always do with misprintings in books. It doesn't make them any less of a tool in my opinion.

 
   
Made in se
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New Oblits are probably the most OP unit in the game at 65 ppm, but they're overpriced at 115 ppm.

They should probably be around 85-95 ppm with their new profile.

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 Elbows wrote:
 Samuhell wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.


Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit


Sure, and people are welcome to hide behind that excuse as they always do with misprintings in books. It doesn't make them any less of a tool in my opinion.


Wow, so as it stands mate you're going to throw insults for people playing RAW. I'd think about your approach to gaming. I'm using my book not some pamphlet from a box game I haven't bought. Your attitude stinks
   
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Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.

Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.

In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:33:54


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 MinscS2 wrote:
Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.

Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.

In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
But seriously, how do you know? Reductio ad absurdum is no longer applicable to 8th edition, so we have literally no way of knowing what GW is intending.

+++++There are currently NINETY FOUR (94) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++ (Discord: BaconCatBug#0294)
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY; and Scout Sentinels may use "Go! Recon!" to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the shooting phase.
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 Elbows wrote:
 Samuhell wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.


Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit


Sure, and people are welcome to hide behind that excuse as they always do with misprintings in books. It doesn't make them any less of a tool in my opinion.


Ignoring their very correct sticking to the most recent rules, think of it this way, if a new player buys that codex and plays them at 65pts each with the improved stats, how are you going to tell them that they are doing it wrong, there is no FAQ that supports you yet and its very likely that the FAQ will fix it, not everyone who plays them by what we call RAW is a tool.

   
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In My Lab

I'd say that it's probably going to be FAQ'd, but HOPEFULLY to 85-95 points, and NOT 115.

Because at 115... They're not awful. But they're not very good either.

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 MinscS2 wrote:
Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.

Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.

In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "


Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)
   
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In My Lab

 Samuhell wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.

Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.

In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "


Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)


And that's kinda the issue. While it's almost a given that RAI is not 65 PPM, is 115 the RAI either? One's too low, the other's too high.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Samuhell wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.

Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.

In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "


Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)


And that's kinda the issue. While it's almost a given that RAI is not 65 PPM, is 115 the RAI either? One's too low, the other's too high.


I know, personally I haven't used oblits but the witch hunt attitude is putting me off playing with them to avoid the crap. it's a crying shame as the new models are awesome
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Samuhell wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.

Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.

In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "


Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)


And that's kinda the issue. While it's almost a given that RAI is not 65 PPM, is 115 the RAI either? One's too low, the other's too high.

Cents say hi.

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Yes, Cents aren't good. Your point?

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I did some comparative math regarding their cost efficiency back when the cost was first previewed.

The short answer is that you're getting a better unit for units of 1 or 3 Obliterators, but it's less efficient to run 2, which happens to be the number in the box.

Spoiler:

The formula weights the importance of the various factors [down to resistance to various categories of weapons], and then computes an average change in the values. 1 and 3 oblit are largely always over the line, 2 is always below the line, and the tail for fielding a ton of them is generally down unless you want the shooting more than the price.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:09:11


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When unclear situations like this arise, and there are 2 potential ways to play a unit, my motto is "Play them with the way that is the least powerful" - Better to cheat yourself than your opponent.

It was the same when Necron Command Barges by RAW had a 3++ back in 5th (I think, might have been 6th) due to a piece of wargear. GW quite quickly errata:ed it to only work on the Necron Overlord when he was on foot, but for a short time, Barges with 3++ was a pretty common sight. I (and some others in my gaming-circle) refused to play them with a 3++. Evidently we played it right, but even if we hadn't, it would've only been to our own detriment, and not to that of our opponent.

Now if you want to play with Oblits but are put off by the uncertainty, play them as 115 ppm with a unit-size of 1-3.
At least for until the April-FAQ drops.

No one is gonna dislike you for paying 115 ppm, regardless if they end up costing 115 ppm or 65 ppm in the end, but people will (understandably imo) have issues with you paying 65 ppm if they end up going "back" to 115 ppm.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:59:57


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I really don't know what the "final" price of oblits will be (I don't think it will be either 65 or 115). The codex is clearly a holdover/typo and the Shadowspear price is tenuous as many price points of their one off game systems seem to be aimed at internal balance of the box itself and get amended later. I would say 90-100 range is about right for them. Until they get their "final" price tag, I will be running with the Shadowpear price/numbers as that seems to be a bit more in line with the intent. I certainly won't let someone take a single model at 65 though, that's rules min/maxing at it worst picking and choosing rules in an unethical way.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:07:13


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Currently they are at 65, and the argument with the "Everyone should know..." "its common knowledge that..." Is straight garbage. By same faulty logic you could say "everyone should know matched play is unbalanced and you really shouldnt be playing it, so play open play until the april FAQ is out."


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:12:23


 
   
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Tampa, FL

The problem with pointing out RAI, in this case, is that Shadowspear is not something everyone may have. The Codex is. If someone has Obliterators already, and bought the new Codex (let's say they came back to the game) and turns up for a game, what? You tell them they're cheating because a different boxed set that they didn't hear of (that is, as of this writing, temporarily out of stock) changed the points but the codex was reprinted with the old points?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes, Cents aren't good. Your point?

Cents aren't actually good. They are good when buffed by a 400 point unit only. Utterly garbage without. A cent with 2 LC has about 1/2 of the firepower of an oblit - with less wounds - no invun - less mobility - no deepstrike. This is also after a points drop in the last CA. Lets also keep in mind 0 stratagem support ether. Oblitz are shooting twice at +1 to wound. The only playable way to use cents is with dakka build - which isn't exactly point and click win like oblitz. 1 shooting basically anything with a decent roll.

Lets get real. Can you honestly tell me you'd rather have a Dev cent with 2 LC and a missile launcher over an oblitz with the new point cost?

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes, Cents aren't good. Your point?

Cents aren't actually good. They are good when buffed by a 400 point unit only. Utterly garbage without. A cent with 2 LC has about 1/2 of the firepower of an oblit - with less wounds - no invun - less mobility - no deepstrike. This is also after a points drop in the last CA. Lets also keep in mind 0 stratagem support ether. Oblitz are shooting twice at +1 to wound. The only playable way to use cents is with dakka build - which isn't exactly point and click win like oblitz. 1 shooting basically anything with a decent roll.

Lets get real. Can you honestly tell me you'd rather have a Dev cent with 2 LC and a missile launcher over an oblitz with the new point cost?


I... I literally said "Cents aren't good."

As in, are not good.

As in, bad.

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